Eight tenths of a degree? Think of the Grandchildren!

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

James Hansen and others say that we owe it to our Grandchildren to get this climate question right. Hansen says “Grandchildren” with a capital G when he speaks of them so I will continue the practice. I mean, for PR purposes, Grandchildren with a capital letter outrank even Puppies with a capital letter, and I can roll with that.

In any case Hansen got me to thinking about the world of 2050. Many, likely even most people reading this in 2010 will have Grandchildren in 2050. Heck, I might have some myself. So I started to consider the world we will leave our Grandchildren in 2050.

In a recent post here on WUWT, Thomas Fuller floated a proposal that we adopt a couple of degrees as the expected temperature rise over the century. He says in the comments to his thread that

I think we owe it to the people of the world to give them an idea of how much warming they can expect, so they can plan their buildings, businesses, roads and lives. They matter. They don’t care how much of it is due to CO2 or how much is rebound from a LIA due to forcings we don’t understand. They don’t. They probably shouldn’t.

We have temperature rises that we can almost trust from 1958 that show a trend of about 2 degrees for this century if things go on.

To start with, I don’t think we owe people anything more than the scientific truth as we understand it. And if we don’t understand it, as in the case of what the climate may be like over the rest of this century, we definitely owe it to the people to simply say “We don’t know”. Those three little words, so hard to say … so no, we don’t owe people a number if we don’t have one.

Next, predicting the future by extending a linear “trend” is a bad idea, because it puts a totally false air of accuracy and scientific reliability on something that we haven’t much of a clue about, except we’re very sure it’s not linear … As Mark Twain famously wrote of that kind of extrapolation:

In the space of one hundred and seventy-six years the Lower Mississippi has shortened itself two hundred and forty-two miles. That is an average of a trifle over one mile and a third per year. Therefore, any calm person, who is not blind or idiotic, can see that in the Old Oolitic Silurian Period, just a million years ago next November, the Lower Mississippi River was upwards of one million three hundred thousand miles long, and stuck out over the Gulf of Mexico like a fishing-rod.

And by the same token any person can see that seven hundred and forty-two years from now the Lower Mississippi will be only a mile and three-quarters long, and Cairo and New Orleans will have joined their streets together, and be plodding comfortably along under a single mayor and a mutual board of aldermen. There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

So extending linear trends is not a good plan, particularly in our current state of knowledge of the climate. The planet may be warmer in fifty years, or it may be cooler in fifty years, we don’t know.

But let’s set all of those difficulties aside. Here’s Fuller’s proposal graphically, using HadCRUT data. (As an aside, the trend 1958-2010 in the HadCRUT data is actually 1.3° per century, not 2°/century as Fuller states. So his figures are an exaggeration of the historical trend.)

Figure 1. A grapical representation of Thomas Fullers proposal that we decree that expected warming will be 2° over the 21st century. Image Source

However, Fuller’s proposal along with a comment from Michael Tobin got me to thinking. How about that two degrees per century, what if it actually happens? That two degrees has always been the big scare number, the tipping point, the temperature rise that would lead to the dread Thermageddon, the temperature where we fall into planetary immolation. So I got to pondering James Hansen’s statement about the Grandchildren, and also Fullers postulation of a historically unlikely 2°warming this century. Two degrees per century is eight-tenths of a degree by 2050, so my questions were:

What would I do differently if I knew for a fact that my Grandchildren would be eight-tenths of a degree warmer in 2050? Or alternatively, how would I feel if I knew for a fact that I had sentenced my as-yet-unborn Grandchildren in 2050 to live in a world that was eight-tenths of a degree warmer?

And you know, I couldn’t think of one single thing about buildings, or businesses, or roads, or lives, that I’d do differently for eight tenths of a degree by 2050. Not one thing. Even if I knew it was coming, I don’t know what that slight warming will do, so what would I do to get my Grandchildren and Puppies and business and bridges ready for it? How would I know what to do to prepare my buildings and roads and life for eight tenths of a degree of warming?

There might be some adverse outcomes from that eight tenths of a degree of temperature rise threatening my Grandchildren in 2050, but neither I nor anyone else knows what those outcomes might be. We’ll assuredly get an extra flood over here, and one less flood over there, it’s very likely to be drier somewhere and wetter somewhere else, in other words, the climate will do what climate has done since forever — change.

But anyone who says they can predict exactly where the floods and droughts might be in that unknown climate future is blowing smoke. And I don’t know if we could even tell if the average temperature changed by eight-tenths of a degree. Here’s why:

Let’s take a real look at what that means, eight-tenths of a degree. Here is the record for the GHCN climate station nearest to me these days, Santa Rosa, California.

Figure 2. GISS Unadjusted and Adjusted Temperature records, Santa Rosa, CA. Adjusted temperature is shown in transparent red, to show the Unadjusted underneath (blue). Bottom panel shows the amount of the adjustment.

Santa Rosa has pretty good record, mostly complete from 1902 to the present. Now, there are a number of issues with the GISS adjustments to this station. Before adjustment there is a slight cooling, and after adjustment that has become a slight warming. Who knew that the urban heat island might work in reverse? In addition, the adjustment in recent years is very rapid. Seems counterintuitive.

However, none of the details of the adjustment is my issue today. Today, I want to highlight the fact that the adjustment in the Santa Rosa record is about a degree in a century. So the uncertainty in the historical record is at the very least about a degree. And this is a good record.

Now, which one is right, the adjusted or the unajusted temperature? Unfortunately, there’s no way to tell. Why? Because an adjustment of a degree in a century is lost in the noise. We often see winters and summers that are three or four degrees warmer or colder than the preceding year or two. We see warm decades and cool decades. A degree is simply not enough change to notice. The oldest men and women living in Santa Rosa couldn’t tell us whether average temperatures were a degree warmer on average when they were kids than they are now. And our thermometers can’t do any better. We simply don’t know whether the ~ 1°C adjustment to the Santa Rosa record is valid or not.

My point is that the adjustment is almost a full degree. This is slightly larger than the predicted temperature rise in the scary stories about 2050 and the Grandchildren and the Puppies. And since the adjustment of nearly 1°C in Santa Rosa is so small that we can’t determine if the adjustment is correct, why should I be concerned about eight-tenths of a degree in 2050? We can’t even measure temperature to that accuracy in a site with good historical records, and I should worry about that unmeasurable change?? I don’t think so.

So no, I’m sorry. I refuse to be scared, even by Fuller’s exaggeration of a linear extrapolation of a cherry-picked trend. I have no problem if my Grandchildren have to face a world in 2050 that is eight-tenths of a degree warmer than it is now, more power to them. Without alarmist scientists armed with megaphones and performance-enhancing mathematics, how would we even know if it were eight-tenths of a degree warmer in Santa Rosa in 2050? Our scientists can’t decide if there is a 1° change in the Santa Rosa record, and yet we’re supposed to fear a smaller change by 2050? I think not.

And what catastrophes will eight tenths of a degree bring? We see decadal swings in the Santa Rosa record that are much greater than that, and there are no ill effects. Yes, I know there’s hosts of scientists out there telling me that awful things will happen from Thomas Fullers stipulated warming, but here is my question:

First, let’s assume that the AGW folks are correct, and that global warming will lead to global catastrophes of a variety of types, all the biblical plagues plus a host more.  Increasing temperatures is supposed to lead to more extreme weather and terrible outcomes, a perfect storm of hundreds of bad effects in what I have termed “Thermageddon”.

Next, let’s note that the globe has been warming, in fits and starts but generally warming, since the Little Ice Age. Estimates of the amount of the warming are on the order of one and a half to two degrees C.

And finally, note that since 1958 (to use Fuller’s start point) we have had much faster warming for half a century.

So my questions are … where are all of the catastrophes from that couple of degrees of warming since the Little Ice Age, and from the half century fast warming since 1958? I mean, James Hansen would excoriate the Elizabethans because they bequeathed not only their Grandchildren, but their great-great Grandchildren, a warmer world. I don’t know how the Elizabethans slept at night, after wishing a degree or more of warming on their poor innocent Grandchildren. And puppies. But where are the catastrophes from the couple of degrees of slow warming since the 1600s?

Seriously, people keep saying that the problem with the climate is that we can’t do laboratory experiments. But for the past three centuries we have two excellent natural experiments. In the first we saw warming century after century, and yet we didn’t experience Thermageddon. Where are the catastrophes?

Then in the second natural experiment we have the much faster warming Fuller talked about since 1958, as shown in Figure 1. During that time the Pacific atolls have gotten bigger, and Bangladesh has more hectares of land. People are better fed than at any time in history. There has been no increase in extreme weather events. Where are the catastrophes resulting from those two natural experiments in slow and fast warming?

So no, I don’t worry about eight tenths of a degree warming by 2050. I sleep content, knowing that my Grandchildren might actually get to the point where they could measure eight tenths of a degree of warming and have a scientific reason to agree on the size of the adjustments … I figure they’ll be able to do it, they’ll be smarter and richer and more powerful than we are, with undreamed of technologies. Heck, they may find out that it actually did warm by eight-tenths of a degree between now and 2050. And by then they may actually have found out whether or not CO2 is the main planetary temperature control knob. And likely they will have a variety of other energy sources at that time.

But regarding the eight tenths of a degree of warming by 2050, I just don’t see what catastrophes that will cause in the real world for my Grandchildren. It certainly hasn’t caused catastrophes up until now.

But then people say, never mind the Grandchildren, what about the other species? Won’t their ranges change?

I’m at about Latitude 38 North. The global average temperature change as one goes north or south at that latitude is about one degree per hundred miles.

So under the Thomas Fuller 2°C assumption, the average isotherms will move 80 miles north by 2050. Again, this is lost in the noise. These kinds of changes have been happening in the climate since forever. The world generally doesn’t even notice. Eight tenths of a degree is just too small, it is dwarfed by the daily, monthly, annual, and decadal temperature swings.

Oh, people will say, but the warming in this case will be much faster than in the past, that’s where the problem will come in. But those people forget that all life adapts very quickly. It has to because the temperature changes so much and so quickly. When the temperature often changes by three degrees from one year to the next, either up or down, plants and animals must (and can) adapt to that change in a single year. The idea that plants and animals can’t adapt to eight tenths of a degree by 2050 doesn’t make sense, when they can easily adapt to a three degree swing up or down in a single year. And we have seen that in the rapid warming since 1958 that Fuller highlighted, there haven’t been any catastrophes, either among humans, animals, or plants. So the “fast warming causes catastrophes” claim doesn’t work either.

Final Conclusion? I’m sorry to be so contrary, friends, but I just don’t see that even Thomas Fuller’s exaggerated (by historical standards) 2° per century warming will bring any kind of problems or catastrophes. The IPCC’s greatest projected warming is said to occur in the extra-tropics, in the winter, at night.

And at the end of the day, you can call me a callow, unfeeling neo-Elizabethan brute willing to sentence his Grandchildren to a warmer world, but I’m not going to lose sleep over having less frigid December midnights in Helsinki Finland, or over Thomas Fuller’s possible (not guaranteed but only possible) eight tenths of a degree of warming by 2050. Warming has not caused catastrophes in the past, and if future warming does happen, there is no reason to expect catastrophes from that either.

I know mine is a minority view. But to change my mind, you’ll have to show me that warming in the past has caused catastrophes and huge problems. Until then, I’m not going to believe that warming in the future will cause catastrophes and huge problems, especially warming that we can barely measure.

0 0 votes
Article Rating

Discover more from Watts Up With That?

Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.

172 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
eadler
October 23, 2010 10:44 am

Willis Eschenbach says:
October 22, 2010 at 9:47 pm
“eadler says:
October 22, 2010 at 4:22 pm
The problem with this article is that it focuses on the global average temperature change that is projected for the future in a discussion of the consequences and compares that figure with the daily variation in temperature which is much larger. The average temperature change by itself is not what is causing the concern, so Eschenbach is responding to a straw man argument here.
The real problems associated with temperature increases are increases in catastrophic weather events such as droughts and floods, which result from the exponential increase in evaporation and water content in the atmosphere as a function of temperature. Eschenbach totally ignores this real argument which is based on the dependence of the vapor pressure of water, and is reflected in the results of weather and climate modeling. The projections are that droughts and fires such as were observed in Australia and Russia, and floods such as the recent incident in Pakistan will be more frequent. There is nothing benign about these events.
The fact that Eschenbach doesn’t feel the need to deal with this argument is appalling. Is it because has never encountered real consequences of global warming as described by scientists, or is purposely ignoring them because it is easy to do, and the cheerleaders who favor his point of view won’t notice.
eadler, thank you for your comments. I have dealt with the issue of extreme events (droughts, floods, and the like) here, as I mentioned above. I have also discussed droughts here as well. So the idea that I have not discussed and dealt with them is not true
And again I say, show me the catastrophes. You say:
The real problems associated with temperature increases are increases in catastrophic weather events such as droughts and floods, which result from the exponential increase in evaporation and water content in the atmosphere as a function of temperature.
But we have seen three centuries of slow warming, followed by a half-century of fast warming, and your “real problems” haven’t materialized. So you can wave all of the climate models you want in front of my face, but your doomsday predictions of what warming will bring haven’t worked in the past. Droughts and floods haven’t increased, hurricanes haven’t increased, where are the catastrophes?”
In other articles, you may have dealt with the theory that global warming will increase the statistical occurrence of flood and drought, but you didn’t mention these ideas in the above post, to which I was referring. So my contention that your argument, that a temperature increase of 2C or 0.8C is not significant compared to temperature variations, is a reply to a straw man is still correct.
In addition your first reference above,
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/02/13/congenital-climate-abnormalities/
doesn’t discuss floods or droughts at all.
Your analysis in the second reference above,
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/04/18/come-rain-or-come-shine/
looks at average changes over a long time period, and is designed to avoid observation of the statistics of extreme events of drought and rainfall.
Your statement that severe droughts and floods have not materialized is clearly incorrect and indicates a failure to observe the obvious. This year has seen unprecedented fires in Russia, due to drought and a heat wave, as well as unprecedented floods in Pakistan, and some extreme record events in the US including floods and record high temperatures. These events in themselves do not permit one to draw the conclusion that they are caused exclusively by global warming occurring in the current time period, but they are certainly consistent with what is expected based on fundamental physical theory underlying weather and climate.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/15/science/earth/15climate.html
http://www.grist.org/article/2009-08-18-global-warming-triggers-more-disasters/
“The Bush administration’s U.S. Climate Change Science Program, or CCSP, working with the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, or NOAA, gathered the latest scientific research in its June 2008 report, “Weather and Climate Extremes in a Changing Climate.” The report’s conclusion:
In the future, with continued global warming, heat waves and heavy downpours are very likely to further increase in frequency and intensity. Substantial areas of North America are likely to have more frequent droughts of greater severity. Hurricane wind speeds, rainfall intensity, and storm surge levels are likely to increase. The strongest cold season storms are likely to become more frequent, with stronger winds and more extreme wave heights.
The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration’s “Global Climate Change Impacts in the United States” report, released on June 16, 2009, provides reams of scientific data about warmer temperatures, more frequent floods and droughts, more damaging wild fires, and other serious impacts. For example, some of the clearest results from the research show that rainfall patterns will significantly change. These events would only add to the growing number of disaster declarations, which have dramatically risen in the last three decades.”

For the details you can go to the reports referenced in the article I have quoted above:
http://downloads.climatescience.gov/sap/sap3-3/sap3-3-final-all.pdf
http://downloads.globalchange.gov/usimpacts/pdfs/climate-impacts-report.pdf

Bruce Cobb
October 23, 2010 11:31 am

Jim D says:
October 23, 2010 at 10:14 am
I often see the appeal for proofs here. This is not mathematics. You can’t prove it will be 3 degrees warmer in 2100 any more than you can prove that tomorrow’s weather will be sunny. However, you can give confidence levels and that is what the IPCC does. As the decades go by, verification will bear their forecast out, and we have had two or three such decades already to show they are on the right track.
Yes, Jim, I know all about the IPCC’s confidence game. That is nothing but voodoo science, based on “climate models” which simply assume that C02 is a significant climate forcing. Yes, we’ve had some warming in recent decades, though little in the most recent one. So what? They haven’t shown any connection with C02, other than correlation. That’s called cherry-picking, something you Warmists are expert at.
Sorry to disappoint, but the coming decades will see the whole manmade warming/climate change/disruption pseudoscientific fairy tale dead and buried. Any who still believe it will be laughed at, and considered in the same vein as flat-earthers, which is all they are.

David A. Evans
October 23, 2010 11:50 am

Eadler.
Where I was born, Catcliffe in Yorkshire had some pretty bad floods a few years ago. There were a lot of scare stories about increasing floods & homes damaged. What they forgot to mention is that the village I lived in had extended onto the flood plain. The flood was nothing unusual or extreme, it just hadn’t been seen for some years.
I can say one thing. I don’t know what the climate is going to do. I don’t really think anyone else does either. The only thing I can say with certainty is that it’s going to change.
I’ve seen cooling & warming. Now I think it’s likely I’ll see cooling again. I could be wrong but I’ll know better in a few years.
DaveE.

JPeden
October 23, 2010 12:53 pm

Jim D says:
October 23, 2010 at 10:14 am
However, you can give confidence levels and that is what the IPCC does. As the decades go by, verification will bear their forecast out, and we have had two or three such decades already to show they are on the right track.
Exactly which ipcc Model scenario starting at yr. 2000 has been bourne out? Why is Trenberth worried?

u.k.(us)
October 23, 2010 1:14 pm

eadler,
If reports of “increases in catastrophic weather events such as droughts and floods” upset you, perhaps you should stop searching for them.
They have always been happening, it’s just easier to find them now.
An increase in detection, does not indicate an increase in frequency.

PhilinCalifornia
October 23, 2010 1:39 pm

eadler, preaching from the New Church of Global Climate Disruption
“as well as unprecedented floods in Pakistan”
You mean unprecedented if you don’t count the other 66 they’ve had since 1900 ??
http://www.scribd.com/doc/35665996/Pakistan-Floods-Historical-Natural-Disaster-Events

Jim D
October 23, 2010 2:01 pm

JPeden says “Exactly which ipcc Model scenario starting at yr. 2000 has been bourne out? Why is Trenberth worried?”
It has been steadily 0.1 C per 10 ppm since about 1980. This is consistent with a log-law feedback from doubling CO2 of 2.8 C, which is within their range, and this range was predicted long before the first IPCC report in 1990-2.
Trenberth’s concern with the last decade is why it didn’t warm more, but it was warmer than the 90’s anyway.

Joseph in Florida
October 23, 2010 2:56 pm

Come to think of it; most climate history I have read tells me that the planet has never been too hot, but it has been to darned cold in times past. Would a new ice age with permanent ice coverage as far south as Tennessee satisfy the we-are-going-to-burn-to-death crowd alamists?

October 23, 2010 3:57 pm

eadler is in way over his head trying to correct Willis, who has written extensively on droughts and other extreme weather events. None of those events are outside past parameters of natural variability.
And quoting the NY Times? And Grist?? Please. Pretty soon, just like the NYT eadler will be blaming Bush for Katrina.
eadler also says he has a problem with observations of daily temperature. Well then, let’s look at the October monthly record from 1895 – 2010. Is anyone frightened? Or December, if you like. One of the ‘fingerprints’ of AGW is warmer winters. Once again, the models are wrong. All of them.
Another ‘fingerprint’ of AGW is warming at higher latitudes. The Arctic is warming; but the Antarctic is cooling. So much for A G W. The Arctic is simply a regional climate variation.
Next, comparisons of named storms of greater intensity and severity can never be confirmed. We can now identify storms that could not be identified, or were not even known about, eighty or ninety years or more in the past. It is just speculation, fueled by grant money and confirmation bias. The comparisons can not be verified. Ever.
What we do know is that even Phil Jones found that the temperature trend regularly repeats. That is more evidence of natural variability.
In fact, natural variability explains everything we observe. It’s all happened before, and at times to much greater extremes.
eadler’s alarmism is baseless conjecture, to which he is entitled. But he should not assume it is a successful hypothesis.

Blade
October 23, 2010 6:28 pm

thomaswfuller [October 22, 2010 at 8:19 am] says:
“But one of the characteristics that makes us so adaptable as a species is the ability to plan ahead.”

Within this non sequitir lies the root of the problem. Adaptability is reactive, Planning Ahead is pro-active and pre-emptive. In the case of the former, as has been explained countless times before, the fact that humans and all other species have adapted already under momentus climate swings (from mile high glaciers to arid deserts to tropical rain forests) completely obliterates the concern over several degrees of variability.
Far more importantly though, in the case of the latter, there is no planning ahead. It hasn’t happened nor will it ever happen. Sorry! Let’s consider some things that you should be able to control and plan ahead for, things that are in your immediate vicinity with very few variables, things that are under your own roof …
[3 people] You and your wife cannot plan your one single kid’s life: what diseases he will have, will he be an A or F student, fat or thin, healthy or not, will he mature in one piece or will he lose all his teeth in a football game, will he be a scientist or a burger flipper, a priest or a drug addict, will he be gay or straight, loud and obnoxious or quiet and outspoken, will he be clean or a slob, will he respect you or run away to a commune, will he be honest or will he steal. The day of his birth is only the beginning, nothing but chaos and uncertainty lies ahead for the three of you.
[2 people] You and your wife cannot plan your own marital life: where you live or work, will you thrive or starve, will you be faithfull or cheat on each other, will she work or stay home, will you own or rent, have friends or be loners, which of you will live longer. They day of your wedding is only the beginning, nothing but chaos and uncertainty lies ahead for the two of you.
[1 person] You yourself cannot even plan your one and only single life: … [endless list implied] … from the day you become self-aware, nothing but chaos and uncertainty lies ahead for you.
These are things that are most under your control, probably the ONLY things under your control, with the least amount of variables you will ever encounter, yet there is nothing but chaos and uncertainty ahead. The likelihood of any carefully laid plan succeeding is miniscule.
This does not mean that you throw up your hands and say ‘my life is over’ and give up. A rational person will still try to perfect their own lives, but a rational person should also recognize a bridge too far. What becomes borderline psychotic is someone even considering laying plans for far into the future for OTHER people who are not under their roof. Furthermore, consider the classic life experience lesson: try to get 3 people in a room to agree to any plan, now try 20, now try thousands and millions spanning multiple lifetimes. The probabability of such a pipedream being agreed upon let alone succeeding is just a hair above zero. And since growing numbers of people like myself have no intention of playing along, regardless of the United Nations or IPCC or Mann or Gore, it is not going to happen.
So what do we do without a grandiose plan? What we have always done! We do NOT do what the do-gooders want, which is construct artificial barriers and limitations, we don’t confine ourselves to thinking inside a box. Such arbitrary boxes are becoming increasingly common, such as CAFE standards (essentially locked car companies into building dangerous little sh!t boxes while destroying the industry itself), pushing CFL’s and banning incandescents (locking the public into immature LED’s and dangerous fluoros), aborting the fledgling nuclear/steam industry after three-mile-island (locking us into anything but nuclear). These are just three recent examples and in each case the end-users should have been the final arbitrator not the do-gooder influenced powers-that-be. Simply put, there are cases where each and every product or technology can and should be used, but intervention short-circuited the normal development process. Such planning for the future only results in freezing the technological process and locking us a current product.
We should thank god the generations alive in 1870 or 1914 or 1780 or 1690 (etc) didn’t attempt to proceed with such megalomaniacal presumptive future planning. It took random people thinking outside the box without fascist constraints to make the great leaps from wood burning to coal, whale oil to petroleum, from steam to gasoline, horse to car, nothing to electricity (…etc) and most of this is only a generation removed from living memory. It is no longer hard to imagine being locked into riding horses (or bicycles or rickshaws) by 19th century do-gooders, or balloons instead of planes, wagons instead of trains, props instead of jets, and so on. It is no great leap to imagine 30 years ago freezing computer evolution into Apple over IBM/Microsoft, Motorola over Intel, or whatever. Had those companies wielded the irrational clout of the pre-Climategate AGW cabal anything at all is possible. Think of the skewed timeline in Back To The Future!
CONCLUSION: my own theory is that at the core of the liberal mind is an unspoken but grudging acceptance of the massive uncertainties of their day to day lives (listed above), which leads them to megalomanical attempts to control the uncontrollable, that is items such as weather, climate, and society itself. Scratch a liberal and just underneath the surface lies a feudal dictator in training. Well I say this to them: micro-manage your own lives, start with your children and see if you can even accomplish that before you think about presuming to alter other peoples lives that you will never meet, and especially future societies yet to be born.

Bill W
October 23, 2010 7:11 pm

Thanks to the heavy metal in your CFL’s, your Grandchildren will not be able to eat Tuna or Swordfish.
Haz-Mat Bulbs are on their way!

CRS, Dr.P.H.
October 23, 2010 10:31 pm

Delingpole’s comments are a scream!!
“Wattsy’s site was responsible for another classic this week which you must read if you haven’t already: Willis Eschenbach’s magisterial and hilarious essay “Eight tenths of a degree? Think of the Grandchildren!”
I met Eschenbach at Heartland: terrifyingly loud shirts and an aura of tousled levity and almost childlike sweetness which might give you the impression that he’s just a barmy eccentric. Make no mistake, though, this man is a genius.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100060493/warmists-plot-secretly-to-kill-off-the-medieval-warming-period-again/

Francisco
October 24, 2010 7:22 am

@eadler,
You may want to explain how an “exponential increse in evaporation and water content in the atmosphere” (assuming it real) should cause more droughts, as you keep repeating.
There is no question that *focus* on all kinds of extreme weather events has vastly increased, and the means to detect such events anywhere on the globe have also increased in recent decades. None of that tells you anything about their frequency relative to other periods.
I have never seen the description of a plausible mechanism by which global warming should cause an increase in *all* these events. It is just asserted that it should be so.
The contrary argument seems in fact more plausible to me. All weather activity is generated by the temperature difference between the poles and the equator. Global warming takes place disproportionately at high latitudes — tropical temperatures being much more stable. Therefore global warming will reduce this temperature difference. Now, arguing that such a reduction will cause an increase in weather activity is sort of like arguing that reducing the voltage in a circuit will increase the current.

eadler
October 24, 2010 4:28 pm

Smokey says:
October 22, 2010 at 7:08 pm
eadler says:
“The real problems associated with temperature increases are increases in catastrophic weather events…”
Gaia disagrees.
You should have picked Door #3. Thanx for playing, and Vanna has some lovely parting gifts for you on your way out, including Rice-A-Roni, the San Francisco treat!
Our next contestant is a housewife from Boise, Idaho, Mrs Lulu Finklestein…
.
OK, no more beer tonight.
click1
click2
click3

I think your victory celebration is not justified.
The data looks impressive until you enquire into it more deeply. The reduction in death data from extreme events during 1900-2006 is not due to a reduction of the incidence of extreme events, but rather due to the improved ability to respond to these incidents and prevent mortality. This is explained by the author of the paper who produced the graph in your link.
http://www.csccc.info/reports/report_23.pdf
If extreme weather has indeed become more extreme for whatever reason, global and U.S. declines in mortality and mortality rates are perhaps due to increases in societies’ collective adaptive capacities. This enhanced adaptive capacity is associated with a variety of interrelated factors – greater wealth, increases in technological options, and greater access to and availability of human and social capital – although luck may have played a role.
The theory of global warming has made no predictions regarding the incidence of tornados in the US above the level of force 3, the graph you claimed shows that predictions of extreme drought and flood events are wrong.
In fact, in the US, the incidence of drought events has increased. Check out the graph on page 23 of the following report:
http://downloads.climatescience.gov/sap/sap3-3/sap3-3-final-all.pdf
This shows drought in the Western United States, which has always been at risk for drought, has increased rapidly since 1950.
This is consistent with projections based on climate models which project drier areas will get drier, as the earth heats up.
On page 47 there is a figure which shows that in areas normally subject to high levels of precipitation, there is an increasing trend in the occurrence of such events.
On page 50, there is a graph which shows that there has been an increase in the Frequency (expressed as a percentage anomaly from the period of
record average) of excessive precipitation periods of 90 day duration exceeding
a 1-in-20-year event threshold for the U.S.
There is data which confirms that projected increases in average global temperature should result in increases in drought and flood events.

JPeden
October 24, 2010 5:16 pm

Jim D says:
October 23, 2010 at 2:01 pm
JPeden says “Exactly which ipcc Model scenario starting at yr. 2000 has been bourne out? Why is Trenberth worried?”
It has been steadily 0.1 C per 10 ppm since about 1980. This is consistent with a log-law feedback from doubling CO2 of 2.8 C, which is within their range, and this range was predicted long before the first IPCC report in 1990-2.
Trenberth’s concern with the last decade is why it didn’t warm more, but it was warmer than the 90′s anyway.

From which I conclude that you can show me no CO2AGW Model scenario which was bourne out by the post 2000 temp. record – even Jones agrees that there’s been no warming since 1995 – and that that’s why Trenberth is worried; because the post-2000 temp. record is in fact inconsistent with output from the CO2AGW warming Models.
Surely you would agree that the actual course of events at least casts some doubt upon the CO2AGW hypothesis?

October 24, 2010 7:04 pm

eadler says:
“There is data which confirms that projected increases in average global temperature should result in increases in drought and flood events.”
Please provide that data — and make sure it is neither raw [not “adjusted”] data, nor computer model output.
Thanx in advance.

October 24, 2010 7:23 pm

That’s telling like it is, Willis, I couldn’t agree more. But you brought out the recent temperature rise and ArndB (2:37 A.M.) then brought in the influence of the ocean, both of which are important in the present day. AB thinks the temperature drop in 1940 was oceanic in nature which I did not know but find believable. Finally, I thought, someone who knows something about temperature which NASA, NOAA, and Met Office have screwed up with an imaginary heat wave. But that is not the only thing they have screwed up. They also show warming in the eighties and nineties which did not happen despite Hansen’s testimony in 1988. This period was actually a period of oscillating temperature, up and down by half a degree for twenty years, but no rise until 1998. That is ten years after Hansen spoke. The oscillations trace out five ENSO cycles of El Ninos alternating with La Ninas when the 1998 super El Nino comes in and temporarily lifts global temperature by a full degree Celsius. It turned out that it did not belong to ENSO but was interpolated between two ENSO cycles. What caused it was a huge amount of warm water dumped at the start of the equatorial countercurrent near New Guinea by a storm surge. The countercurrent is the route that all El Ninos take to cross the ocean but this one was bigger than any of the regular ones. The warm water it brought to South America lingered and was responsible for the temperature rise in the aftermath of the super El Nino. Starting in 1998 the global temperature rose by a third of a degree in only four years and then stopped. What followed was what I call the twenty-first century high – a period of six years when the temperature stayed high but did not go anywhere. But catbon dioxide kept going up and so did all the model predictions including Hansen’s. Not one model predicted absence of warming for this period and when cooling arrived in 2008 in the form of a La Nina they did not know what hit them. The shape of the La Nina was obvious to me last year when I was writing the book and I knew the oscillating climate of the eighties and nineties had returned. I was right because it was followed by the El Nino of 2010 which has now peaked and is being followed by aLa Nina that is already on the way. The satellite temperature record which thirty one years old by now can be divided into three sections: the oscillating temperature of the eighties and nineties, the super El Nino and its aftermath, and a new oscillating region starting with the La Nina of 2008. The center line of the oscillations in the eighties and nineties lines up with the mean temperature of the sixties and seventies, meaning that there was no warming whatsoever until the super El Nino of 1998 arrived. The warming you see during this period in official temperature curves is cooked. That means falsified and I show how it was done. So now we have a horizontal temperature trend for twenty years, followed by a four year transition by a third of a degree to the twenty-first century high which is also a horizontal trend until the present oscillating temperatures begin. I extended the trend of the twenty-first century high to see where it leads and found that it neatly divides the line connecting the bottom of the 2008 La Nina and the tip of the 2010 El Nino. From this you would have to say that the twenty-first century high will effectively continue with its present temperature. But why? It was created by the warm water that came over with the super El Nino but now it is twelve years since then and it should be cooling or dissipating which I don’t see. It’s origin was oceanic in that sense and what AB had to say started me thinking about the possibility of an oceanic climate change right in front of our eyes.

Jim D
October 24, 2010 7:59 pm

JPeden, my answer to that is natural variability. Yes, the oceans can cause natural variability, as can the solar minimum we just had. We have seen up to half a degree amplitude swings due to El Nino. This is small compared to 3 C expected from CO2, however, and I don’t see how even the famed 60 year cycle can rise to that amplitude considering it hasn’t shown anything like that much in the past.

Latimer Alder
October 24, 2010 10:26 pm

@eadler

The reduction in death data from extreme events during 1900-2006 is not due to a reduction of the incidence of extreme events, but rather due to the improved ability to respond to these incidents and prevent mortality.

Ok…lets assunme that this is true. So why should we worry about these events. They occur – sure. But we’re better at coping with them than we used to be.
Few people in developed countries nowadays die of the old dread diseases…cholera, tuberculosis etc.Because we have developed good ways (eg drugs) of coping with them. They still exist and are a problem. But not any longer the automatic death sentence that they used to be. There are ways to cope. We as a species got better at understanding and living with these nasties.
Why should a few more ‘extreme weather events’ be treated any differently – even if all the doomongers predictions are bang on the money?

1 5 6 7