Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
James Hansen and others say that we owe it to our Grandchildren to get this climate question right. Hansen says “Grandchildren” with a capital G when he speaks of them so I will continue the practice. I mean, for PR purposes, Grandchildren with a capital letter outrank even Puppies with a capital letter, and I can roll with that.
In any case Hansen got me to thinking about the world of 2050. Many, likely even most people reading this in 2010 will have Grandchildren in 2050. Heck, I might have some myself. So I started to consider the world we will leave our Grandchildren in 2050.
In a recent post here on WUWT, Thomas Fuller floated a proposal that we adopt a couple of degrees as the expected temperature rise over the century. He says in the comments to his thread that
I think we owe it to the people of the world to give them an idea of how much warming they can expect, so they can plan their buildings, businesses, roads and lives. They matter. They don’t care how much of it is due to CO2 or how much is rebound from a LIA due to forcings we don’t understand. They don’t. They probably shouldn’t.
We have temperature rises that we can almost trust from 1958 that show a trend of about 2 degrees for this century if things go on.
To start with, I don’t think we owe people anything more than the scientific truth as we understand it. And if we don’t understand it, as in the case of what the climate may be like over the rest of this century, we definitely owe it to the people to simply say “We don’t know”. Those three little words, so hard to say … so no, we don’t owe people a number if we don’t have one.
Next, predicting the future by extending a linear “trend” is a bad idea, because it puts a totally false air of accuracy and scientific reliability on something that we haven’t much of a clue about, except we’re very sure it’s not linear … As Mark Twain famously wrote of that kind of extrapolation:
In the space of one hundred and seventy-six years the Lower Mississippi has shortened itself two hundred and forty-two miles. That is an average of a trifle over one mile and a third per year. Therefore, any calm person, who is not blind or idiotic, can see that in the Old Oolitic Silurian Period, just a million years ago next November, the Lower Mississippi River was upwards of one million three hundred thousand miles long, and stuck out over the Gulf of Mexico like a fishing-rod.
And by the same token any person can see that seven hundred and forty-two years from now the Lower Mississippi will be only a mile and three-quarters long, and Cairo and New Orleans will have joined their streets together, and be plodding comfortably along under a single mayor and a mutual board of aldermen. There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.
So extending linear trends is not a good plan, particularly in our current state of knowledge of the climate. The planet may be warmer in fifty years, or it may be cooler in fifty years, we don’t know.
But let’s set all of those difficulties aside. Here’s Fuller’s proposal graphically, using HadCRUT data. (As an aside, the trend 1958-2010 in the HadCRUT data is actually 1.3° per century, not 2°/century as Fuller states. So his figures are an exaggeration of the historical trend.)
Figure 1. A grapical representation of Thomas Fullers proposal that we decree that expected warming will be 2° over the 21st century. Image Source
However, Fuller’s proposal along with a comment from Michael Tobin got me to thinking. How about that two degrees per century, what if it actually happens? That two degrees has always been the big scare number, the tipping point, the temperature rise that would lead to the dread Thermageddon, the temperature where we fall into planetary immolation. So I got to pondering James Hansen’s statement about the Grandchildren, and also Fullers postulation of a historically unlikely 2°warming this century. Two degrees per century is eight-tenths of a degree by 2050, so my questions were:
What would I do differently if I knew for a fact that my Grandchildren would be eight-tenths of a degree warmer in 2050? Or alternatively, how would I feel if I knew for a fact that I had sentenced my as-yet-unborn Grandchildren in 2050 to live in a world that was eight-tenths of a degree warmer?
And you know, I couldn’t think of one single thing about buildings, or businesses, or roads, or lives, that I’d do differently for eight tenths of a degree by 2050. Not one thing. Even if I knew it was coming, I don’t know what that slight warming will do, so what would I do to get my Grandchildren and Puppies and business and bridges ready for it? How would I know what to do to prepare my buildings and roads and life for eight tenths of a degree of warming?
There might be some adverse outcomes from that eight tenths of a degree of temperature rise threatening my Grandchildren in 2050, but neither I nor anyone else knows what those outcomes might be. We’ll assuredly get an extra flood over here, and one less flood over there, it’s very likely to be drier somewhere and wetter somewhere else, in other words, the climate will do what climate has done since forever — change.
But anyone who says they can predict exactly where the floods and droughts might be in that unknown climate future is blowing smoke. And I don’t know if we could even tell if the average temperature changed by eight-tenths of a degree. Here’s why:
Let’s take a real look at what that means, eight-tenths of a degree. Here is the record for the GHCN climate station nearest to me these days, Santa Rosa, California.
Figure 2. GISS Unadjusted and Adjusted Temperature records, Santa Rosa, CA. Adjusted temperature is shown in transparent red, to show the Unadjusted underneath (blue). Bottom panel shows the amount of the adjustment.
Santa Rosa has pretty good record, mostly complete from 1902 to the present. Now, there are a number of issues with the GISS adjustments to this station. Before adjustment there is a slight cooling, and after adjustment that has become a slight warming. Who knew that the urban heat island might work in reverse? In addition, the adjustment in recent years is very rapid. Seems counterintuitive.
However, none of the details of the adjustment is my issue today. Today, I want to highlight the fact that the adjustment in the Santa Rosa record is about a degree in a century. So the uncertainty in the historical record is at the very least about a degree. And this is a good record.
Now, which one is right, the adjusted or the unajusted temperature? Unfortunately, there’s no way to tell. Why? Because an adjustment of a degree in a century is lost in the noise. We often see winters and summers that are three or four degrees warmer or colder than the preceding year or two. We see warm decades and cool decades. A degree is simply not enough change to notice. The oldest men and women living in Santa Rosa couldn’t tell us whether average temperatures were a degree warmer on average when they were kids than they are now. And our thermometers can’t do any better. We simply don’t know whether the ~ 1°C adjustment to the Santa Rosa record is valid or not.
My point is that the adjustment is almost a full degree. This is slightly larger than the predicted temperature rise in the scary stories about 2050 and the Grandchildren and the Puppies. And since the adjustment of nearly 1°C in Santa Rosa is so small that we can’t determine if the adjustment is correct, why should I be concerned about eight-tenths of a degree in 2050? We can’t even measure temperature to that accuracy in a site with good historical records, and I should worry about that unmeasurable change?? I don’t think so.
So no, I’m sorry. I refuse to be scared, even by Fuller’s exaggeration of a linear extrapolation of a cherry-picked trend. I have no problem if my Grandchildren have to face a world in 2050 that is eight-tenths of a degree warmer than it is now, more power to them. Without alarmist scientists armed with megaphones and performance-enhancing mathematics, how would we even know if it were eight-tenths of a degree warmer in Santa Rosa in 2050? Our scientists can’t decide if there is a 1° change in the Santa Rosa record, and yet we’re supposed to fear a smaller change by 2050? I think not.
And what catastrophes will eight tenths of a degree bring? We see decadal swings in the Santa Rosa record that are much greater than that, and there are no ill effects. Yes, I know there’s hosts of scientists out there telling me that awful things will happen from Thomas Fullers stipulated warming, but here is my question:
First, let’s assume that the AGW folks are correct, and that global warming will lead to global catastrophes of a variety of types, all the biblical plagues plus a host more. Increasing temperatures is supposed to lead to more extreme weather and terrible outcomes, a perfect storm of hundreds of bad effects in what I have termed “Thermageddon”.
Next, let’s note that the globe has been warming, in fits and starts but generally warming, since the Little Ice Age. Estimates of the amount of the warming are on the order of one and a half to two degrees C.
And finally, note that since 1958 (to use Fuller’s start point) we have had much faster warming for half a century.
So my questions are … where are all of the catastrophes from that couple of degrees of warming since the Little Ice Age, and from the half century fast warming since 1958? I mean, James Hansen would excoriate the Elizabethans because they bequeathed not only their Grandchildren, but their great-great Grandchildren, a warmer world. I don’t know how the Elizabethans slept at night, after wishing a degree or more of warming on their poor innocent Grandchildren. And puppies. But where are the catastrophes from the couple of degrees of slow warming since the 1600s?
Seriously, people keep saying that the problem with the climate is that we can’t do laboratory experiments. But for the past three centuries we have two excellent natural experiments. In the first we saw warming century after century, and yet we didn’t experience Thermageddon. Where are the catastrophes?
Then in the second natural experiment we have the much faster warming Fuller talked about since 1958, as shown in Figure 1. During that time the Pacific atolls have gotten bigger, and Bangladesh has more hectares of land. People are better fed than at any time in history. There has been no increase in extreme weather events. Where are the catastrophes resulting from those two natural experiments in slow and fast warming?
So no, I don’t worry about eight tenths of a degree warming by 2050. I sleep content, knowing that my Grandchildren might actually get to the point where they could measure eight tenths of a degree of warming and have a scientific reason to agree on the size of the adjustments … I figure they’ll be able to do it, they’ll be smarter and richer and more powerful than we are, with undreamed of technologies. Heck, they may find out that it actually did warm by eight-tenths of a degree between now and 2050. And by then they may actually have found out whether or not CO2 is the main planetary temperature control knob. And likely they will have a variety of other energy sources at that time.
But regarding the eight tenths of a degree of warming by 2050, I just don’t see what catastrophes that will cause in the real world for my Grandchildren. It certainly hasn’t caused catastrophes up until now.
But then people say, never mind the Grandchildren, what about the other species? Won’t their ranges change?
I’m at about Latitude 38 North. The global average temperature change as one goes north or south at that latitude is about one degree per hundred miles.
So under the Thomas Fuller 2°C assumption, the average isotherms will move 80 miles north by 2050. Again, this is lost in the noise. These kinds of changes have been happening in the climate since forever. The world generally doesn’t even notice. Eight tenths of a degree is just too small, it is dwarfed by the daily, monthly, annual, and decadal temperature swings.
Oh, people will say, but the warming in this case will be much faster than in the past, that’s where the problem will come in. But those people forget that all life adapts very quickly. It has to because the temperature changes so much and so quickly. When the temperature often changes by three degrees from one year to the next, either up or down, plants and animals must (and can) adapt to that change in a single year. The idea that plants and animals can’t adapt to eight tenths of a degree by 2050 doesn’t make sense, when they can easily adapt to a three degree swing up or down in a single year. And we have seen that in the rapid warming since 1958 that Fuller highlighted, there haven’t been any catastrophes, either among humans, animals, or plants. So the “fast warming causes catastrophes” claim doesn’t work either.
Final Conclusion? I’m sorry to be so contrary, friends, but I just don’t see that even Thomas Fuller’s exaggerated (by historical standards) 2° per century warming will bring any kind of problems or catastrophes. The IPCC’s greatest projected warming is said to occur in the extra-tropics, in the winter, at night.
And at the end of the day, you can call me a callow, unfeeling neo-Elizabethan brute willing to sentence his Grandchildren to a warmer world, but I’m not going to lose sleep over having less frigid December midnights in Helsinki Finland, or over Thomas Fuller’s possible (not guaranteed but only possible) eight tenths of a degree of warming by 2050. Warming has not caused catastrophes in the past, and if future warming does happen, there is no reason to expect catastrophes from that either.
I know mine is a minority view. But to change my mind, you’ll have to show me that warming in the past has caused catastrophes and huge problems. Until then, I’m not going to believe that warming in the future will cause catastrophes and huge problems, especially warming that we can barely measure.
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s you post here (indeed, your post soliceted this from Willis) it wuould be appropriate and honorable for you to respond to this post. It would be very refreshing to see some one state that their mind is influenced and changed from their former opinion.
Another first class post Willis! Time to publish a group of your posts as a book! It would make a great Xmas present! I would even put a copy away for my 2 year old GREAT Grandson. (I know, pulling rank again!).
A couple of footnotes:-
@Latimer Alder says: October 22, 2010 at 2:55 am
I think I’m right in saying that the Thames Barrier has so far been closed more often to maintain upstream water levels (and thus prevent ponging!) that to resist storm surges.
and
After yesterday’s budget announcements in the UK, slashing services, welfare, police numbers and much else (but still not actually CUTTING government expenditure and projected borrowing, only reducing the projected increase!), how pleasant that the Guvmint can still find £2.9 Billion “to help developing countries pursue low carbon growth and adapt to the impact of climate change.”
That’s right, not providing them with reliable, affordable energy, much less clean water, decent health & education, but to be frittered away on the West’s cAGW scaremongering obsessions. And without doubt, quickly diverted into the kleptocratic African rulers’ Swiss bank accounts.
I am thinking of the grandchildren in 2050-Less cold deaths, especially in the 3rd world. And that’s if Mark Twain’s linear satire doesnt slip in, which it probably maybe will.
I doubt that 0.8 degrees would make a whole lot of difference in growing seasons unless it was all concentrated at the extreme ends of the season, even then its not a big deal, the temperature swings more than that from night to day in most places. Where the diurnal temps don’t swing measurably, the growing season is probably 12 months anyway, ie the tropics.
If the increased temperatures are measured mostly at night, in the winter, and towards the poles, then there is even less problem. Here in Canada, at night, in the winter, and well north, the difference between -35 and -34.2 is hardly worth writing home about.
The Canadian Broadcasting Corp (CBC) had one of their scare stories on last night about surviving the future. The gist of the story was that computers have been telling us that there’s a problem for a long time, and now we have even better computers telling us that the problem is even worse than we thought. Pretty depressing if you live in the virtual world described by the silicon gods. Fortunately, we don’t. People need to rely more on what te see and experience first hand than what the simulations tell them.
Thanks for the thought provoking post Willis.
Thanks, Willis, for clear, scientifically and historically accurate reasoning. I still cannot understand why Thomas fuller is posting on WUWT other than he seems to bring in “traffic”. What is a “luke-warmer” position? There can only be the science; Fuller is corrected again and again, but he continues to make the same bald-faced assertions with little to back up his positions. Once or twice a guest post, fine, but come on, Anthony, lets stick to the science whatever “side” it “supports”. Willis’ positions are clear and they can be checked and debated. With gratitude.
Thanks, R. de Haan (3:09 a.m.), for the link to Steven Goddard’s essay. Nice geology and nice real history: http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/originals/to_a_geologist_the_past_is_key_to_the_future.pdf
Arctic tundra
In the Arctic north of 80N, visually, the winter average 244K (-29° C, Summer average ~ 274K (~1° C), annual average ~ 259K (-14° C).
And we are told to worry that it will increase to -13° C by 2050?
And that this will cause the Artic to be “entirely” ice free?
Hmm. I thought ice melted at 0° C!
Perhaps the problem is having a few more days of Arctic growing season?
The Minnesotans for global warming wax eloquently about that prospect.
Once again I come in at the end of a long string of comments which have probably already said this, but excellent post Willis!
The issue of how the climate is changing and by how much (and why, of course) should be a purely scientific discussion, but instead we have turned it into a massive political narrative and governments are racing with each other to destroy their economies over even less quantifiable scare stories. Mankind’s history is one of overcoming adversity through more and more development – this should be our goal. With greater wealth we will cope better with whatever happens – end of story.
I have accused Tom (Fuller) of being a pessimist and failing to account for human ingenuity. He has countered that he is isn’t and is fully expecting the extra billions of humans to find solutions, but at the same time his articles still all begin with linear extrapolations and showing how these will result in serious problems. This to me is a pessimistic approach – certainly not one that fits with our historical experience.
At the same time, Tom’s articles have certainly generated much discussion and perhaps articles like your’s here Willis would not have been written without his (Tom’s) push. I am quite prepared to believe that Tom is pushing his “lukewarmer” status as much to be provocative as anything else, but the main point to me seems to be wanting to get beyond arguments of the science into discussion of responses. This would be useful if I thought there was anything differently we should do in response to climate change, but – as Willis so admirably describes here – there is nothing we should do differently.
In the past 30 years Greenland has experienced twice the warming as lower NH latitudes. Yet in the year 2006 there were a total of 19 heads of cattle being kept in Greenland. Viking era artifacts, particularly livestock bones, reveal that one in three heads of livestock routinely kept by Viking farmers were cattle.
When I start seeing all the CAGW apparatchiks investing in startup agricultural enterprises in Greenland which should be booming “real soon now” thanks to north polar amplification I’ll concede that some of them truly do believe in the AGW dogma. Instead what I actually see them investing in is carbon trading markets and frightfully subsidized alternative energy programs. They are not capitalizing in the areas that stand to benefit the most from global warming but are instead capitalizing on the fears and fake solutions to a narrative future cloaked in ginned up bandwagon “science” to give it an air of authority. Follow the money.
When talking about “climate change”, you have to prepare for a degree rise OR FALL.
John Nicklin says:
October 22, 2010 at 6:35 am
re; growing seasons
The growing season in Greenland is reported to have increased by 2 weeks (at the end of the season) in the past 30 years. This is cause for celebration there as they get 20 hours of daylight in the summer. If they get two more weeks of growing season it opens up possibilities for agriculture there (apple trees for instance) that haven’t been seen since the Viking farms were overrun by glaciers as the Medieval Warm Period transitioned into the Little Ice Age. Glaciers in Greenland during the MWP were in some cases 15 kilometers inland from where they are now and due to the warming had ample supplies of irrigation water from the melt.
Presumably, due to polar amplification, if the warming trend continues for another 30 years vast and growing tracts of frozen NH land will become arable. Any shrewd investor convinced that AGW is real should be buying up northern land at the fringe where growing seasons are as yet not quite long enough to sustain any serious agriculture. Governments owning or controlling these tracts should be offering homesteads in these fringe areas to anyone willing to develop it for agriculture. Yet this is not happening. Even governments which on the surface subscribe to the AGW dogma don’t really believe it. Follow the money.
P.S. Get rid of Fuller. He has no business writing articles on a science blog. All it ends up doing is having the commentary dominated by redundant corrections of his most obvious mistakes. This wouldn’t be that bad if he learned from those mistakes but he just glibbly goes on propagating the same misconceptions in article after article. Enough is enough.
Excellent points Willis. I agree. As a scientist I could never understand the worry about such small effects. CO2 goes up by 50 ppm and the world is going to end? The temperature increases by 0.8°C on average over a century and the planet is going to self destruct? The temperature fluctuates 10 or 20 degrees going from night to day….does the planet self destruct on a daily basis? Over millions and millions of years there has always been life on this planet. Surely there were temperature changes of more than 0.8°C per century. With all the volcanism, meteorites, etc. surely the planet isn’t kept in a temerature balance of less than 0.8°C per century?
And what’s with all the constant fitting of everything to lines and then extrapolating? Linear regressions are only reliable for interpolation. Nothing is ever linear. Even light doesn’t travel in a straight line as described by Einstein. It will bend around masses. Certainly climate is cyclical so a line is never appropriate. Ever. There are feedback and feedforward loops that guarantee it can’t be linear. Maybe exponential or sigmoidal or sinusoidal, but not linear. Ever.
“Think of the Grandchildren!”
Go on, let’s. Not our grandchildren, but those of the >1 billion very poor Africans and Asian sub-continentals. Even in the astoundingly unlikely event that their birth-rate suddenly drops to 2 per couple, by the time their grandchildren come along, there’ll be >3 billion of them, because the vast majority of generations 1 and 2 will still be alive.
Is there any realistic possibility that we won’t be killing hundreds of millions more people through starvation and poverty by ‘acting to prevent climate change’ than we could save by diverting resources to helping economic development in those areas? I thought the term ‘megadeaths’ had gone out with the Cold War, but the Warmists seem to be trying to cause a revival.
Great job Willis!
Just throwing in with many from above: this is a keeper. Do you mind if I commit it to memory (I will credit the source, of course)?
Funny how dalliance in affairs sets off alarms and common sense rings alarmingly true!
Especially like the Twain quote.
Keep up the good work.
A linear extrapolation temperatures to the end of the century is really illogical! It overlooks the fact that we have had two periods of global warming the past century (~1915 to ~1945 and 1977 to 1998) and two of GLOBAL COOLING (1880 to ~1915). Isotope analyses of the Greenland ice cores show that in the past 400 years we have had 40 periods of global warming/cooling with each warm/cool phase lasting an average of 27 years. Why in the world should we ignore the wealth of DATA that these climate changes are based upon and adopt of linear trend from a single 21 year warm phase that is now over? It would actually make more sense to extrapolate the cool phase we have been enjoying for the past decade and decide that we should prepare for our grandchildren to endure global cooling, not warming!
Dave Springer says:
October 22, 2010 at 7:37 am
C’mon Dave,
‘Misconception’ is, sometimes, a relative term. Given that Tom sits as a self-proclaimed lukewarmer he offers valid viewpoints from that position. He may not cover all the bases all the time but I believe it is important to give voice to all viewpoints here. I am thankful for WUWT’s practice of allowing dissenting and/or lukewarm viewpoints.
Having said that, IMHO, Willis thoroughly refuted Tom’s earlier post and I would be interested in Tom’s response.
Tom, care to rebutt Willis?
Good to see Willis is back. Thanks Willis!
For a moment I was afraid WUWT had turned into a LukeWarm blog.
Hi Willis,
Although we’ll probably end up agreeing to disagree, this is a nice post with many valid points.
Perhaps you missed one of the sub themes of my contribution, especially as I consciously tried to understate it. Which is that we owe it to people to tell them the truth, no matter what it is. Currently people are being bombarded by the Joe Romms of this world saying it will be 6 or 7 degrees with sea level rises of 20 feet. People like Michael Tobis are saying that the East Antarctice ice sheet is threatened.
Temperatures have been rising, and although I know it’s dangerous to extend straight line trends, they have been rising (with and without any help from us) for 160 years. None of the factors that might be presumed to affect that rise (manmade or not) look like they’re ready to stop or go into reverse.
I agree with you that some places (including North America) look set to benefit from the rise examined in your post. And I firmly believe that people in all parts of the world will be able to adapt to whatever temperature rise we experience.
But one of the characteristics that makes us so adaptable as a species is the ability to plan ahead.
I believe Grandchildren (with the ‘G’) are those you sired. When with a small ‘g’, those are not yours, although they may be of your spouse.
In your text you use both. WUWT?
In think it speaks volumes for the unassailable logic of Willis’ excellent post that not a single warmist has even attempted to rebut it. What a pleasant change.
Dave Springer says:
October 22, 2010 at 7:37 am
P.S. Get rid of Fuller.
I wish Tom would just get it through his head that ipcc Climate Science is not real science, including its flight into the blathering “end of days” scenarios which seem to represent its main power over susceptible people, by inviting them to panic and then to accede to its truely disasterous “precautions”.
Other than than, I’m not worried by anything that the inherently feckless ipcc “Climate Science” says. Scientifically, it’s a Zero.
sorry above, “other than that“
Willis,
Thanks for the essay. Well done.
Thomas Fuller,
Just above you wrote: “None of the factors that might be presumed to affect that rise (manmade or not) look like they’re ready to stop or go into reverse.”
Do we even know what those factors are, e.g., the specific factors that led to events such as the LIA and the MWP, and how quickly they may act and how visible the precursors are? Admittedly, I’m not a scientist, but I don’t see a great deal of clarity nor unanimity in these discussions on these events as to cause and effect….so, if we aren’t sure what the factors are, how do we judge whether they are ready to stop or go into reverse?
A really great article. Thanks.
Especially this…
“To start with, I don’t think we owe people anything more than the scientific truth as we understand it. And if we don’t understand it, as in the case of what the climate may be like over the rest of this century, we definitely owe it to the people to simply say “We don’t know”. Those three little words, so hard to say … so no, we don’t owe people a number if we don’t have one.”
This phrase “we (I) don’t know” is the mark of a good intellect, and a good character.
Thanks again Willis for another thought provoking and reality-based article. This should be required reading for all of the climate chicken littles out there.
For myself, I think that Mr. Fuller’s articles should continue as they bring another point of view to the site and the subsequent discussion of ideas that may not be as skeptical as others is a good thing. Especially so when they result in a counterpoint argument such as the one above.
Here, at 50N and mid continent, a degree of average warming in the winter would be appreciated. It won’t come fast enough for me to enjoy so I hope to be spending a good portion of the upcoming winters closer to Willis’ latitude. And even more so if we’re heading back to the types of winters we had in the 60s/70s. 🙂