Animal, Vegetable, or E. O. Wilson

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

Buoyed by the equal parts of derision and support I received for writing in “I am So Tired Of Malthus” about how humans are better fed than at any time in history, I am foolishly but bravely venturing once again into the question of how we feed ourselves.

In a book excerpt in the February 2002 Scientific American entitled “The Bottleneck”, the noted ant entomologist Professor Edward O. Wilson put forward the familiar Malthusian argument that humans are about to run out of food. He said that we are currently getting wedged into a “bottleneck” of population versus resources. He warned of the dangers of “exponential growth” in population, and he averred that we will be squeezed mightily before the population levels off.

His solution? In part his solution was that everyone should become a vegivore.

Wilson: “If everyone agreed to become vegetarian, the present 1.4 billion hectares of arable land would support about 10 billion people.

Figure 1. Vegans are not aliens from the star Vega. They are humans who are strict vegivores, as the food chart above shows. They are known for their barbaric habit of boiling and eating the unborn fetuses of rice and wheat. And don’t get me started on what they do to the poor baby carrots, with their so-called … but I digress …

Is this correct? Would we have a net gain in carrying capacity if all the human carnetarians agreed to become vegivores?

Wilson gets his figure of 10 billion people by taking the total amount of the grain that is being fed to animals, and then figuring how many people that grain would feed. In 1999, about 655 billion tons of grain were fed to animals. That’s a lot of grain. At the world average of about 150 kg of grain per person per year, he’s right, that’s an increase of 4 billion more people who would have enough grain. There were 6 billion on the planet in the year 2000, so that makes a total of about 10 billion people.

So up to there, he is correct. But wait. Although he stops the calculation at that point, there’s a few things he is leaving out of the calculation.

First, that’s just grain, which is not enough to keep a person alive. The extra 4 billion people would need additional nuts, seafood, fruits, vegetables, cotton, root crops, and all the other varieties of food and fiber. So the increase would have to be less than 4 billion people.

Second, people have a number of misunderstandings about where animals fit in on the farm. They believe that animals eat lots and lots of food that could be eaten by humans. Their claim is that if we just ate what the animals eat, we could eliminate the inefficiency, and feed many more people than we are feeding now. In other words, their claim is that having animals on the farms reduces the amount of food coming from the farm.

This is what Wilson is repeating here (although he has gone further than others by claiming that this would increase the carrying capacity of the earth by 2/3 again as much as the current population).

I grew up on a ranch where we had both animals (cattle, pigs, chickens) and field crops (hay, alfalfa). I can assure you that anyone who thinks animals reduce available food on the farm is what in my youth we would call a “city slicker”. Farmers around the planet keep animals for meat and milk. What, are farmers all stupid around the planet and only E. O. Wilson and his fellow vegetactivists are smart? Farmers would not keep animals if it were not a net gain.

While in some industrialized countries the cattle get up to 15% of their lifetime nutrition from grain, the vast majority of animals on farms worldwide live on a variety of things that will not or cannot be eaten by humans. Pigs eat garbage, hens eat bugs and grass and kitchen scraps, goats eat leaves, and cows have four stomachs, so they can turn cellulose, which humans cannot eat, into nutritious milk and meat.

If we got rid of all of our chickens worldwide, would we have more food available for humans? Not unless you like bugs and kitchen scraps better than you like eggs. Chickens are the poor woman’s Rumplestiltskin, spinning insects and weeds and melon rinds into golden eggs and tasty meat … I’ll let E. O. Wilson tell her she’s ruining the planet, not me.

If we call the goats down off the steep hillsides where they are grazing around the world, will we be able to put vegetable farms up there? Not unless you can farm sideways without water.

Cattle in the US eat thousands and thousands of tons of cottonseed meal annually, turning it into meat and milk. Would you prefer to eat the cottonseed meal yourself? Sorry, you can’t, it’s mostly cellulose.

The presence of livestock in a mixed farming economy does not decrease the amount of food that a farm can produce. That is a city slicker’s professorial fantasy. Animals increase the amount of food the farm can produce, otherwise farmers wouldn’t have them. Millions of tons of agricultural and processing leftovers, which would otherwise be wasted, are fed to animals. The animals in turn produce milk and eggs and meat, and then go on to enrich the soil through their urine and manure, just like they were perfected to do on the plains of Africa so long ago … what an amazing planet.

Which is why farmers everywhere around the world keep animals — farmers are not dumb, and they haven’t had the benefit of a college education, so they haven’t forgotten that goats eat leaves, pigs eat garbage, cows eat cellulose, and chickens eat bugs. They know the value of chicken manure and pig manure.

With that introduction, let’s see how we might best estimate the change if everyone became vegetarian. We can do it by looking at the land involved. Here’s the numbers: according to the FAO, out of all the land cultivated by humans, about a quarter of the land is used to grow food for animal consumption. This can be further broken down by the type of animal feed grown:

Figure 2. Area of arable land used for human crops, and for animal crops. Image is Van Gogh, “Ploughed Fields”.

Now if we all became vegivores tomorrow, and we converted all that quarter of the cultivated land to growing food and fiber for human use, what is the possible increase in the number of humans?

Looking at the chart, you would think that humans could increase by about a third of the current number. The land used for animals is about a third of the land used for humans. That would be about two billion more people, not the increase of four billion claimed by Wilson. However, the number cannot even be that large, because we have only looked at one side of the equation. We also have to consider the losses involved. By becoming vegivores, we have freed up the 23% of our cropland used to produce animal food, but we have lost the food coming from the animals. Now how much do we have to give back just to maintain the status quo, to make up for our dietary and other losses? These losses include:

•  We would have to replace the loss of the dietary protein provided by the 200 million tons of meat we eat each year, along with 275 million tons of milk, 7 million tons of butter and 47 million tons of eggs. Vegetarians say, “You don’t need animals, you can get enough protein from a vegetarian diet”, which is certainly true.

However, to do it, you need to eat more grains to get this protein, and in a twist of fate, to replace the total amount of meat protein in our diet with protein from grains would require about 50% more grain than we are currently feeding to animals. This is because animals eat many things other than grain, and we need to replace all that lost other-source protein with grain-source protein as well.

So immediately we have to devote about 18% of the total land to replacing lost protein for the existing world population. Subtracting this 18% from our original 23% of freed up land leaves us with only a 5% possible gain. Remember, this is all just to keep the world even, to maintain the world food status quo. We’re not talking at this point of feeding anyone extra. We’re just maintaining the current nutritional supplies of protein for the current population.

• We would also need to replace the amount of fat provided by the aforementioned animal products. While too much fat is a bad thing, dietary fat is an essential necessity of human nutrition.

The weight of dietary fat provided by animals is about a third of the weight of protein provided by animals. In addition, it takes much less land to produce vegetable replacements for the animal fat than for the animal protein. This is because there are vegetable products (oils) which are pure fat, while vegetable products are generally low in protein.

In the event, in order grow the oils to replace animal fat in our diet, we’d have to plant about 3% more  of our arable land to sunflowers or the equivalent. Deducting that from our 5% gain in available land, we are down to a 2% gain.

• Next, the land worldwide would be less productive because in many areas, animal manure and urine is the only fertilizer. We could easily lose more than a couple of percent that way, especially in developing nations. And once we do so, we are at zero gain, meaning we couldn’t add one single person to the world by voluntarily becoming vegivores. But there are several further losses yet.

• There is also a giant hidden loss of food in the change to vegevorianism, as tens of millions of tons of agricultural waste would have to be disposed of, instead of being converted by animals into millions of tons of human food. In many cases (e.g. oilseed residue meal) these wastes are not directly consumable by humans.

• In addition to losing the food animals make from waste, without animals to eat the waste we add the resulting problem of disposal of the agricultural waste, which is expensive in terms of time, energy, and money.

• We’d have to do without leather, hide, hair, horn, wool, and feathers. Especially in the developing world, these products are often extremely important to the health, warmth, clothing, and well-being of the local people, and there often are no local substitutes. This would be a huge cost of foregoing animals. In places where jackets are made of local sheepskins to keep out the frozen wind, explaining to some poor shepherd why he should go vegivore and trade his sheep for soybeans could be a tough sell …

• Finally, about half the land currently used for growing animal food is being used to grow grasses for animals. In practice, this land will mainly be the poorest and steepest of each country’s croplands (or else it would be planted to a field crop), and thus is not likely to be suitable for growing much more than grasses.

All up?

You’d lose by not having animals in the world’s farmyards. I don’t think you’d even come near breaking even — and neither do the farmers all around the world. They know what the numbers have just shown — we can support more people in a planet, a region, a country, or a farm if animals are part of our agricultural and dietary mix.

[UPDATE] Twelve years after I wrote this, science is finally catching up with what every kid on a cattle ranch knows … see “Going Vegan Isn’t the Most Sustainable Option for Humanity“.


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Michael Wassil
September 12, 2010 2:22 pm

[snip]

Dishman
September 12, 2010 2:29 pm

I like eating meat. It’s one of my few pleasures in life.
If Dr. Wilson has a problem with it, perhaps he would like to take his turn on my plate.
Eating carnivores puts one too high up the food chain. Vegans, on the other hand…

Gail Combs
September 12, 2010 2:42 pm

Speaking of grain traders and profit. Here is another side of the vegan push:
A bag of whole corn, packaged and inspected, sold for cows is about $ 7-$8 per fifty pounds. If you buy tortillas whole sale it was between $125 and $150 for fifty pounds wholesale (the last time I looked) Tortillas are made of ground corn and water and dried.
Taking the corn, grinding it and making tortillas gives the corporations one heck of a mark up on that fifty pounds of corn. Think about it. You pay almost as much for a one pound loaf of bread as you do for a pound of chicken or ground beef but you are going to need to eat a lot more nonmeat products to meet you nutritional needs.
No wonder corporations want us to not eat meat.

Dave Wendt
September 12, 2010 2:46 pm

Being an ant expert, it is a bit surprising the Mr. Wilson bypassed the real logical alternative to meat products in the human diet, which is , to paraphrase Marie Antoinette, “let them eat bugs”. Despite humanity’s persistent efforts to obliterate many of them, there are untold billions of tons of the critters scurrying about, just waiting to add their nutritional excellence to human menus. Perhaps Mr. Wilson’s involvement in the scientific study of ants has left him with sentimental prejudices against exploiting this most obvious dietary alternative.
Up here in the Great White North of Minnesota, the natural reproductive capacity demonstrated by local mosquito populations suggests that, with the application of fairly minimal insecticulture techniques, our state could on its own provide for much of the protein requirements for the entire country. And that is not even considering the ants, termites, flies, maggots, cockroaches, grubs, caterpillars, etc., etc.
BTW, for those espousing the nutritional glories of Marmite. I succumbed to curiosity a couple of years ago, and purchased a, thankfully, small jar, although even then it was fairly expensive in the local grocery. Over time I made a number of attempts at eating it, on the theory that it might take a bit to acquire a taste for it. I should add that I am very much an omnivore who has very seldom refused to at least try to eat whatever has been served to me, including at some fairly exotic Chinese banquets arranged by my sister’s in-laws, where , as an honored guest I was often offered first shot at things I had never imagined as part of the human food chain. To cut to the chase, after many months and repeated attempts I just recently sent the remainder of that small jar of Marmite to the landfill, although to grant it one positive, after banging about the fridge for more than 2 years, it didn’t seem to be any worse tasting when I threw it away than when I first opened it.

Gail Combs
September 12, 2010 2:50 pm

D. Patterson says:
September 11, 2010 at 9:48 pm
A diet of high calorie meat consumption was necessary for Homo sapiens sapiens to evolve and sustain the present brain mass and corresponding human intelligence and speech. Arbitrarily returning to low calorie non-meat diet comparable to the other primates past and present is a step backwards towards de-evolution and the loss of human intelligence. But you already knew that instinctively…right?
_____________________________________________________________
I have read the actually studies done on vegans and brain weight loss…..

Gail Combs
September 12, 2010 2:59 pm

Stop Global Dumbing Now says:
September 11, 2010 at 11:18 pm
… I once explained to a vegan that the reason many colobus monkeys are coprophagous was due to their poor, vegetarian diets. I never thought to use the B-12 angle and stopped short of suggesting that they become one (although I have told a few people to eat $#!+ and die). You have emboldened me.
____________________________________________________-
I prefer “act environmentally, eat recycled food” (copyrighted)
It sounds so much more politically correct.

Gail Combs
September 12, 2010 3:19 pm

GM:
…..Where is your evidence to back up your faith that “everything will be fine, no need to worry”?
_____________
The evidence is 200,000 years of human existence. As those who post here from other countries attest, there is no lack of brain power in “Third world” countries where the birth rate is high. Given decent living conditions and educations they will also drop their birth rates to 2.0 or below.
By the by we always hear screaming about birth rate by what about the much more critical number, the number of offspring that live to reproduce in Africa???

Gail Combs
September 12, 2010 3:25 pm

tallbloke says:
September 12, 2010 at 1:34 am
…..We need to store more food. The ‘just in time’ agriculture favoured by stockbrokers is a very bad way to run a human ecology. Pharoah knew this, and had 7 year grain silos in 2000BC.
____________________________________________________
Amen to that. It is one of the reasons I curse the name of Dan Amstutz who wrote the legislation that destroyed the US grain reserves, the “freedom to farm act”

Patrick Kelly
September 12, 2010 3:25 pm

I’ve come upon this post relatively late and haven’t got time to go through all the responses. So if my point has been raised already I apologise. It seems to me that there is a flaw in the calculations. Consider the following from the post:
1. “By becoming vegivores, we have freed up the 23% of our cropland used to produce animal food.”
2. “So immediately we have to devote about 18% of the freed up land to replacing lost protein.”
Now 18% of the “freed up” land is (18*23)/100 or something less than 5% of the total land. The author subracts the 18% from the 23% when he should be subracting the (close to) 5%.
Comments?

September 12, 2010 3:37 pm

Malcolm Kirkpatrick
1) Incorrect as government is by definition not a “person”. I expect that your intent was that governments can and do commit violence orders of magnitude beyond what a person can, and from that perspective you are correct, save that in the modern world religious extremism enacted through non state actors is growing in proportion.
2) Human life is prescious regardless of the “supply”. This is a judgment that we as human beings can make. If you should suddenly lose your life would the number of people who morn your death, your friends and family, change appreciably if the world population is 5 billion or 25 billion? I would venture to say that your chances of death from violence in medieval times as a percentage would be much higher than it is today.
5) The death rate has not changed in thousands of years. It has remained static at precisely one to a person. Life span on the other hand has increased dramaticaly and birth rates fall with education and affluence. Since birth rate falls below the level to maintain population levels at education and affluence levels long since exceeded by the western world, it seems clear that a determined effort to increase education and affluence in the rest of the world will curb population growth long before we exceed the planet’s capacity to support us.
9) The opposite is true. The birth rates in densely populated cities are far lower than those of rural communities. In large western cities, an only child is common, three children are considered a large family. It is the rural communities where an only child is the exception and a large family is more than three.
11 & 12) The point being you assume that human beings will reach that level if unchecked in some fashion. The fact is birth rates in first world countries have long since fallen below the replacement rate, and the second world is not far behind. As the third world makes progress toward similar standards, there is no reason to believe that the result will be any different, or that it won’t happen long before we get to maximum sustainable population.
That said, my personal vote is for interstellar space travel. Way more fun and every ideology can have their own d***ed planet to run their way. Until that becomes available, readin, riting, and rithmatic combined with access to low cost energy (read fossil fuels) is all that is required for the global population to be held within limits that will ensure no catastrophic episode of global starvation occurs. Asteroid impacts on the other hand are not so easily thwarted.

Dr. Dave
September 12, 2010 3:41 pm

I have a few vegetarian friends. None of them are militant (i.e. they don’t expect to be a vegetarian because they are). One guy is a Seventh Day Adventist physician. When he told me he was a vegan I asked him about his leather belt and shoes. He said, “I don’t care if you kill animals. I just don’t want to eat them.” He also told me he was a vegan not because he loves animals, but because he hates plants.
Another old friend of mine discovered, quite by accident, in his early 20s that if he didn’t eat meat his allergy symptoms went away and he felt better. This guy loves meat and misses it. Once in a while he’ll fall off the no-meat wagon and eat a steak but he claims he pays for it for several days afterward. He is a vegetarian only because it works for him. It’s not a religion.
I can go for days without eating meat. In fact, I get “veggie hungry” once in a while and eat salads, fresh veggies, rice and beans for days. Then I get “meat hungry” and it’s steaks, burgers and chops. If you listen, your body will tell you what you need to eat.

Gail Combs
September 12, 2010 4:09 pm

Eugene McDermott says:
September 12, 2010 at 10:44 am
….The other alternative is to use human waste. While this is possible human feces contain many pathogens dangerous to people that are absent from animal manures, with the possible exception of pig manure. Think punji sticks. The act of turning the grain fields of the world into latrines filled with human feces appears problematic from a health perspective….
_____________________________________
Dried, sanitized human waste from sewage treatment facilities has been considered as fertilizer. The only problem is the ” household and industrial chemicals” that go down the drain and could poison the fields.

E.M.Smith
Editor
September 12, 2010 4:14 pm

OK, a generally great overview of the ‘issues’. FWIW, while I’m an omnivore, I’ve got two vegetarians and a piscivore (vegetable and fish eater…) that I cook for. We have a vegetarian menu about 3/4 of all meal (ovo-lacto leaning).
What I’d add is mostly odd details. Things like: There are aquaculture systems where various farm wastes are piled in a corner of the pond and ‘stuff’ grows on it. Algae and bugs. Higher forms eat the ‘stuff’.Prawns especially, but also some carps and tilapia eat the ‘stuff’ and various algae that grows. The ‘end game’ is that you end up turning crap and sunlight into fish and prawns. Kind of harder to eat pond scum and fermenting pig poo yourself….
Per the “goat” thread: I’ve forgotten the name of the guy, but a Ph.D. (I think in agronomy) in India developed a simple system to maximize food and minimize land degradation with goats. Pen the goats. The system plants a ‘bean tree’ (leucaena leucocephala? something like that) which fixes nitrogen into the soil.
People harvest the limbs in a coppice operation and feed the leaves and twigs to the goats, using the wood for making things and fuel. The goat poo is fermented to make “gobar gas” that is used for cooking (saving the women’s eyesight from dung burning and the forest from cutting for cooking fuel). The gas digester product and pee is spread on the coppice forest and vegetable garden for maximal yield of vegetables.
End result? He’s turned land undergoing massive erosion and some desertification into lush forrest. Farms have thrived with a surplus of food, fiber, and fuel. They have enough excess to sell cheeses and soap for money, and have started up the path to modernity with micro scale solar power and a TV for entertainment AND educational use. A stellar result. Not achievable without the goat in the system.
Oh, and health and IQ have increased markedly as well. Prosperity and a good diet does that…
A simple thought example: Grow a field of corn and beans. Harvest the corn and the beans. Now, what do you do with the stems, leaves, stalks, silks, cobs, … A vegan farm would let mold eat them and turn them into compost. An omnivorous farm runs them through meat, milk and eggs on the way to fertilizer… with more total production along the way.
I have ‘free range bunnies’ in my garden as my ‘ruminants’. (They are ‘hind gut’ fermenters and one of the smallest ruminants you can get). While I don’t eat them (in the traditional system, they are eaten. I take pictures of them and pet them instead as I have meat from chickens and fish and don’t need the pelts…. but want to practice the system. As a kid we did ‘dispatch’ them and use the whole critter. With modernity has come the luxury of a ‘toy farm’…) They are an important part of my agronomy system as they bypass the compost heap in a day or two instead of weeks or months.
One sidebar (on the coprophage issue) is that bunnies as part of the hind gut fermentation have a special organ that traps and ferments plant bulk. They then poo out a very special poo that they eat. (How they managed to keep it separate from the daily non-fermented poo is interesting, but beyond the scope here). If they can’t eat that biscuit, they die, as it provided needed vitamins. FWIW, our ‘appendix’ is a vestigial form of the same organ… We evolved from such hind gut fermenters. Think about it…
So while it’s quite possible to become a vegetarian and live a full and happy life, there are some ‘issue’ you have to deal with. It is NOT an easy or natural thing to get full nutrition that way. (Even Chimps hunt for monkey meat from time to time…) One of the trickiest is to get enough omega-3 fatty acids (easiest from fish). So flax seeds and flax oil are on the shopping list…
OK, the flip side: It IS possible to feed more people with a PARTIAL move toward vegetarian diets. In particular, the ‘feed conversion ratio’ matters. Cows are about 10 to 1, while pigs and chickens are about 3 to 1 and fish can be about 1 to 1. To the extent you move away from cows and towards fish you get more total food and more efficiency. In an optimized system you would have goats and cows for milk and cheese (and the inevitable veal and kid goes on the menu…) fed the plant parts we can not eat, but with as much plant waste as possible fed to fish, then chickens, then pigs (who also eat things like the fish guts and chicken guts…).
This would only really work in the highly industrialized and wealthy west, though, as most non-industrialized societies are already doing something along those lines.
Why politicians and yuppies think they can design an agronomy system is beyond me though. I’d wager not a one of them has run a manure spreader or shoveled out a barn… Nor even ploughed a field. And I’d really like to see them chop the head off a chicken and clean and pluck it. (Kudos to Her Majesty for demonstrating that she knows the proper wrist flick for wringing a chicken’s neck.)
One of the most efficient systems on the planet is run in Asia, where pigs are fed ‘stuff’ while penned over a pond. Pig poo falls into the pond, where algae grow. Carp eat the plant growth and ducks eat the bugs and small fish. End result? A LOAD of pork, fish, and ducks. More that the plants fed to the system as the sunlight on the pond adds to the total productivity. Excess ‘productivity’ is spread on the vegetable garden along with ‘night soil’… “Everything but the squeal” comes to mind…
The only downside is the disease risk from the species chosen as pigs, people, and birds can all share the flu. So that’s where we get the new varieties evolved as the virus ‘does laps’ until it gets the gene mix right…

E.M.Smith
Editor
September 12, 2010 4:59 pm

On the issues of salmon, herring, etc. and chicken scraps…
The western industrial farming system is so efficient that we have millions of tons of production that is notoptimized. Drove by a harvested field of celery a month or so ago. It was still significantly green from all the rejects, trimmings, and just run over and crushed plants left in the field to rot. If we were ever in need of added food supply, a ‘by catch’ system would catch those scraps and feed them to pigs or chickens (as is done on family subsistence farms in much of the world.)
Purina makes a wide variety of “chow” including various “fish chow” blends. Much of what is in them is other fish. We harvest a load of stuff that gets turned into ‘fish chow’; but along with it is often a fair amount of soy and corn. Depends on the target species.
BTW, protein is not a significant problem on a vegetarian diet. Just mix some beans and leaves with the grains. (Spinach and beans can have higher protein content than meat). The bigger issues are omega-3 (best in grass fed beef and sheep) fatty acids. Grains are omega-6, so a grain rich diet is too low in omega-3 (and grain fed beef is too rich in omega-6 too…) and various vitamins. Protein is just not much of an issue.
That we choose not to do it does not mean it could not be done.
THE biggest problem for most farm products is GLUT not scarcity.

September 12, 2010 5:02 pm

Can anyone here calculate the estimated maximum carrying capacity of the earth for humans or point to a link which does perhaps?
Thanks in advance

Gnomish
September 12, 2010 5:06 pm

Feeding to pigs is actually a large scale waste disposal practice.
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/an143
“The primary waste products fed to swine are plate and kitchen waste, bakery waste, and food products from grocery stores. The primary sources of plate waste are restaurants, institutions, schools, and to a small degree, households. Food waste originating from restaurants, institutions, and schools has traditionally been referred to as garbage and has been regulated as such. According to the USDA there are over 2,200 licensed garbage feeders in the United States and nearly 3,000 in Puerto Rico (USDA-APHIS, VS, 1995)”
In lots of places-
http://observers.france24.com/en/content/20091023-sanitation-cairo-qalyubiyah-pigs-rubbish-waste-collection-swine-flu-cull
“The pig slaughter severely affected the entire system of waste collection. This decision, which was taken hastily and arbitrarily, brought about today’s sanitation crisis.
For the last two months, heaps of rubbish have been growing in the provinces of Cairo, Giza and Qalyubiyah, which portends a higher risk of illnesses and epidemics.”

Oliver Ramsay
September 12, 2010 5:10 pm

Willis says;
“Second, people have a number of misunderstandings about where animals fit in on the farm. They believe that animals eat lots and lots of food that could be eaten by humans. ”
———–
I think, more often they say that land used to raise fodder could be used to raise plants for humans.

“Farmers would not keep animals if it were not a net gain.”
As previously pointed out, it’s about financial gain, not pounds of blueberries as opposed to parsnips. It’s not just about survival; there are aesthetic preferences.
———-
“The animals in turn produce milk and eggs and meat, and then go on to enrich the soil through their urine and manure, just like they were perfected to do on the plains of Africa so long ago … what an amazing planet.”
This is a simplistic argument with a hint of intentional design. If you start out with a very fertile soil and sell produce away from the farm year after year you’re going to have to import manure from somebody else’s critters to feed your land ‘cos the city slicker eating your cow is sending your farm’s fertility down the sewer. You say farmers aren’t dumb but you’re suggesting agronomists are.
———-
“You don’t need animals, you can get enough protein from a vegetarian diet”, which is certainly true.
However, to do it, you need to eat more grains to get this protein,…”
More grains than what? It’s widely known that populations of the developed world consume far more protein than is necessary, and maybe more than is healthy.
———–
Final Quibble; the suffix -vore is used to denote an animal that is biologically equipped to eat certain things, rather than one that makes an intellectual decision to do so. -arian carries more of that sense; e.g. libertarian or breatharian!
Personally, I find the human population density a little displeasing and hope that animals will continue to abound.

bubbagyro
September 12, 2010 5:23 pm

Gail Combs says:
September 12, 2010 at 2:08 pm
Thanks to others and you for filling in the corn-ethanol debacle argument. I was fatigued on this, thinking that others would have seen the simple logic that fermenting grain to produce ethanol is pure insanity. I overestimated many people’s understanding of the issue.

E.M.Smith
Editor
September 12, 2010 5:34 pm

Oh, and on B12, remember, it’s found in beer.
http://www.brewersofeurope.org/docs/publications/pdf-Mei04.pdf

Like bread, which is also made from cereal, beer is a good source of many
vitamins which are essential for life. To make beer the barley is sprouted first
(malted) which actually increases the nutritional value of the cereals used. Beer is
particularly rich in most of the B type vitamins for example niacin, riboflavin (B2),
pyridoxine (B6) folate (B9) and Cobalamin (B12). For those vegetarians who enjoy
drinking beer this is a natural source of B12. (Table 1 shows the percentage of the
recommended daily intake of certain vitamins and minerals found in half a litre of beer.)
As well as adding to a healthy diet, the vitamins and minerals in beer may confer
additional health benefits. Recent research suggests that the B vitamins (B6, B9
and B12) may give beer drinkers additional protection against cardiovascular
disease compared to drinkers of wine or spirits59. Population studies in USA, UK,
France, Spain and the Czech Republic all confirm that moderate beer
consumption, in contrast to other alcoholic drinks, reduces homocysteine levels
and suggest that this may be due to beer’s high B vitamin content60,61,62,63,64.
High homocysteine levels, like “bad cholesterol” (LDL), are associated with a
higher risk of heart attacks. Clinical research is underway to examine whether the
folate in beer can reduce homocysteine levels.

I make it to be a liter or 2 of beer per day (best as ‘live beer’ not the filtered stuff), but just to be safe, you might want to double that ;-0

bubbagyro
September 12, 2010 5:38 pm

During my hippie stage, I visited communes in NY and Vancouver. It was the beginning of an epiphany. Very sad lot for these few. My wife and I were vegetarians for 7 years afterwards in PA, during which we spent a good part of the day growing food and cooking it. I am and was then a biochemist as my day job. It is true that veggies can produce the array of AA we need to survive, but that required quite an array of different beans and lentils to complete the picture. Legumes that are complete with the 8 essential AAs are quite unpalatable, so one had to really blend like crazy. As for B12, we needed oral vitamins because the sublingual forms of B12 were not widely known back in the 70s. But, later to find out that the oral B12 pills are much less bioavailable than those in complexed sources (like Marmite, Vegemite, or red meat). Yes, we ate these yeasty dregs from the brewery too (I had Aussie and British friends) and my wife and I pretended they were delicious! A few years later, I found that heavy metal toxins, like lead, mercury, thallium, and cadmium, not to mention chlorinated pesticides were concentrated in these dregs of the distillery.
As an aside, it is really hilarious to see Vegans scrutinize for minutes on end and reject the majority of the “organically grown” apples and peaches that have a spot or two from insects on them. Great spectator sport! You can time them and bet on the outcomes! Check that out for yourselves next time at the “Organic” market.

September 12, 2010 5:54 pm

Mr. Hoffer,
1. I did not say that government was a person.
Of all the violence dealerships in your neighborhood, “government” is the name we give to the largest. My usage follows Max Weber, approximately. See also Edwardo Zambrano “Formal Models of Authority” (__Rationality and Society_) and Randall Holcombe “Government: Unnecessary But Inevitable” (__The Independent Review__) .
2. Value is determined by supply and demand. This is not a principle of capitalist economics or even human economics; it is a fact of life. See (e.g., E.O. Wilson, “The Ergonomics of Social Insects”, American Economic Review). Observe the relation between sunlight intensity, rainfall, photosynthetic area, and root surface area in plants. Observe the relation between wage rates and population (wages rose after the Black Death). “Callous big city versus friendly small town” is real.
5.
a) Get real. Death rates, as measured by demographers, vary.
b) The observed relation between education and wealth, on the one hand, and fecundity, on the other, is not so simple. First, within societies, corr(wealth, reproductive rate) is usually positive. In the US it is U-shaped, due to subsidization (AFDC, government schools, etc.). Inter-temporally, over the long haul, it is positive (consider the relation between moderate climate and population growth).
c) Consider the evolutionary implications of “all human behavioral traits are heritable” (google the entire phrase). The current observed relation between aggregate wealth across societies and population growth cannot last.
9. According to Wrigley (__Population and History__) cities have historically been population sinks, and do not reproduce themselves. This cannot last (“all human behavioral traits are heritable”+”humans who will reproduce at high density have a selective advantage over humans who require lots of open space”).
11, 12.
“11 & 12) The point being you assume that human beings will reach that level if unchecked in some fashion. The fact is birth rates in first world countries have long since fallen below the replacement rate, and the second world is not far behind. As the third world makes progress toward similar standards, there is no reason to believe that the result will be any different, or that it won’t happen long before we get to maximum sustainable population.”
The reason human population will not stabilize without either compulsory means or a crash are those I have given. Sci-fi is not the answer. We are many decades (probably centuries) away from space travel to Mars as cheap as bus travel to Cleveland, which is what even that stop-gap would require. “Science will provide” is no more responsible a policy than “The Lord will provide”. No policy at all.

bubbagyro
September 12, 2010 5:57 pm

Mark Sokacic says:
September 12, 2010 at 5:02 pm
Here is a source. Sorry the columns did not work right, but you can get the drift. Leuwenhoek was the first, and came up with 13.8 Billion. It looks like the mean of the “reasonable” estimates is around 20 Billion. Of course, epidemics and wars are the wild card.
What will be the Earth’s maximum population?
Posted on 2008 December 12 by probaway
The book by Joel E. Cohen, “How Many People Can the Earth Support?” in Appendix 3 (p.402-18) lists many authors’ answers to that unanswerable question. Perhaps a better question would be, looking back from the distant future after humanity has passed on into oblivion, “What was the maximum population of humans the Earth ever achieved?” Ultimately, that will be a very specific number which in fact may be known at some time in the not to distant future by people now living, whereas the book’s title has a huge number of imponderable variables built into its question which can never be answered even after the fact. It was a poor question from a scientific point of view. Below is a list of various authors attempts to put a number to that question. Numbers are in billions. The current world population is approximately 6.8 billion.
Minimum Maximum Author Year Comment
Billion ~ Billion ~ 13.4 Leeuwenhoek 1679 First known estimate
6.3 12.5 King 1695
4.~ 6.6 Sussmilch 1741
13.9 Sussmilch 1765
6.0 Ravenstein 1891
8.1 Fircks 1898
10.9 Pfaundler 1902
2.3 22.4 Ballod 1912
132.~ Knibbs 1917
5.2 Edward M. East 1924
2.~ Pearl & Reed 1924
6.- 12.~ Wickens 1925
7.7 15.9 Penck 1925
6.2 Fischer 1925
5.7 Warren D. Smith 1935
2.6 Pearl & Gould 1936
13.3 Hollstein 1940
5.6 13.3 Boerman 1940
.9 2.8 Pearson & Harper 1945
7.0 8.6 Mukerjee 1946
5.~ Salter 1946
6.5 10.~ Fawcett 1947
1.8 7.2 Spengler 1949
6.- 10~ C. Galton Darwin 1952
50.- Brown 1954
3.7 7.7 Brown, Bonner,W 1957
28.~ Clark 1958
30.~ Baade 1960
16.~ 800.- Kleiber 1961
10×10 raised 18 Fremlin 1964 Heat dissipation limit
10.~ Cepede 1964
30.~ Schmitt 1965
41.~ Zierhoffer 1966
47.~ 157.~ Clark 1967 Americans/Japanese
79.- 1,022.- De Wit 1967 Total usage
1.- Hulett 1970 American style
40.- 60.- Austin & Brewer 1971
0.5 1.2 Ehrlich 1971 Permanent & stable
35 40.~ Muckenhausen 1973
100.~ Lieth & Blaxter 1973
38.- 48.~ Revelle 1974
6.7 Buringh 1975
5.~ 7.~ Whittaker & Likens 1975
40.~ Revelle 1976
17 Eyre & Blaxter 1978
1,000.~ Marchetti 1978
14 Kovda 1980
4.5 Mann 1981
2.0 3.9 Westing 1981
12.~ Gates 1982
7.5 Gilland 1979
4.0 32.8 Higgins 1983
6.1 Ferrell, Sander, Vo 1984
300 Hardin 1986
22 Calvin & Hudson 1986
9.8 19.3 Hudson 1989
2.8 5.5 Chen 1990
5.3 Raven 1991
7.7 Meadows 1992
23.8 Tuckwell & Koziol 1992
much less 5.5 Ehrlich 1993
12.- 14.~ Heilig 1993
10+ Waggoner 1994
3.~ Pimentel 1994
10.~ 11.~ Smil 1994
11.~ 44.~ Dutch Gov. 1994
— — — — —
11.6 Daily & Ehrlich 1992
~12.~ WikiAnswers 2008
2.0 Pimentel 1999 At American style
2.7 OPT 2008 Optimum Pop.
As you can see for yourself there is little agreement among these projections and that is why the question is flawed. If each of these researchers was asked “What is the maximum number the population the Earth would reach before retreating,” there would probably be a number much nearer Leeuwenhoek’s first prediction of 13.4 billion made back in 1697. He may have been looking through the first microscope but surely he had a reasonably clear distant vision also.

bubbagyro
September 12, 2010 6:00 pm

I like how he ends the article:
Pick a number, any number at all from 0 to 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 for the maximum number that the Earth will support and there will be a scholarly supporter for that number. This is especially true if you fund a univiersity chair for that scholar.

Willis Eschenbach
September 12, 2010 7:14 pm

Lew Skannen says:
September 12, 2010 at 10:43 am

This is why I love WUWT. Every article is pure quantitative analysis and logic. After reading an article like this I have always learnt something of value.
So different from the ‘handwaving’ arguments which seem to predominate in some other places…

Thanks, Lew. That’s why I do not simply quote other articles, I do my own research and run the numbers on my own, and every expedition into the bowels of the climate I learn a bit more and bring back what I learn.

r
September 12, 2010 7:14 pm

Imagine, some people even think that cats can live on corn. Most cats I see that are forced to eat corn or rice or any other grain based cat food are obese and end up with diabetes. Some people actually give their cats insulin shots every day but yet still feed their cats corn. A cat in the wild would never eat corn no matter how hungry it was. I feed my cat raw ground turkey and raw eggs. She is 7 years old and looks like a teenager (1 year old cat.)