I never knew chilly, heavier water could do this:
The deep seas are a vast reservoir of carbon dioxide, dissolved under pressure, but the chilly and hence heavy water from the disappearing bergs – helped by the Fleuve and its fellows – sank to the bottom and pushed that ancient reserve of trapped carbon towards the surface. Gas bubbled out and entered the air, pushing onwards the wave of warming. Within a couple of centuries the glaciers began their precipitate retreat, the oceans rose by tens of metres, and we were in the modern world.
From this mythic article in the Telegraph, written by a professor of Genetics.
That water sure has to sink a long way, and as we all know, cold and warm water don’t mix. /sarc
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Of course, some simple grade school science on water density can tell us a lot too. From Steve Spangler’s Science:
The Floating Egg
It’s so simple and amazing. A raw egg will float in very salty water but will sink in plain tap water. Why? Salt water is more dense than regular water. You’ll need to make a very saturated salt solution by dissolving roughly 4 tablespoons of salt in about 2 cups of water. Use pickling or Kosher salt to make a clear salt solution. Table salt may be used, but the solution will be somewhat cloudy due to the additives used to make the salt free-flowing.
Fill a glass half full with the salt water. Slowly add plain water by pouring it down the sides of the glass, being careful not to mix the two liquids. Gently drop the egg into the water and watch as it sinks through the plain water, only to abruptly stop when it hits the salt water. The egg floats on the top layer of the salt water.
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Also, for those that might argue that berg meltwater just above freezing is more dense because it is colder, there is a curious thing that happens at 4C, as outlined in this Iowa State course:
“In regions where precipitation is high, such as the Intertropical Convergence Zone in the central Pacific Ocean shown in the lecture on Atmospheric Structure and Circulation (figure 9), fresh-water rain will ride on top of the saline ocean water. Similarly melting ice in polar regions will be less dense than nearby ocean water of temperature 4 oC because of its lower temperature and lack of salt.”
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And Verity Jones adds this in comments:
“Arctic sea [melt] ice plays a critical and hitherto unknown role in the removal of the greenhouse gas, carbon dioxide (CO2)”
“…in this study, the researchers have found that sea ice itself plays an important role in CO2 capture, effectively pumping this potent greenhouse gas out of the atmosphere. As sea ice forms, it rejects brine, rich in inorganic carbon compounds (derived from atmospheric CO2), into the underlying seawater, a process further stimulated by carbonate precipitation within the sea ice. The summer sea ice melt liberates water which is strongly depleted in CO2. The very low concentration of CO2 in this surface water then drives the extraordinary uptake of CO2 from the atmosphere.”
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h/t to Pablo ex pat who quips: “Geomythology is a new science to rival Climomythology”
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DirkH says:
July 13, 2010 at 1:40 pm
Gail Combs says:
July 13, 2010 at 12:12 pm
“[…]
Look at the common gray squirrel.
When I was a kid (50 -60′s) the squirrel would dart back and forth avoiding the predator (car) and get squashed now city squirrels head straight across the road and do not zig zag. their poor country cousins still zigzag in my neck of the very rural woods.”
Mammals have pretty good brains – it would give the squirrels an advantage to store such reactions in their memory; the species could adapt much faster. So i would bet that this behaviour is learned. It would be an interesting experiment to find out. (No, you don’t really have to crush squirrels. You could observe their behaviour and stop shortly before you crush them.)
_______________
That behavior is learned by city squirrels, and no doubt taught. Natural selection may, in due course in an urban population, tend to select for a population that learn well, that is, unless the girls get knocked up before the lesson completes. More likely, you are seeing in the city, a survivor population, not necessarily an adapted one. Look at squirrels in a suburban area. See what they do. If they bob and weave as much as run straight, the selection pressure is not having much impact on the adaptibility.
Paul Coppin,
“More likely, you are seeing in the city, a survivor population, not necessarily an adapted one.”
Odd fun, the comment reminds me of a childhood favorite when squirrels and owls meet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UxU1tO5IHo
Best,
John from CA
@ur momisuglyrichard
“@ur momisugly Scott Basinger says:
July 13, 2010 at 11:05 am
I think that you mean g/cm3 instead of cm2..”
Ugh. Of course… ouch.
Richard, you said…..
“Correct me if i’m wrong but i take it that icebergs melt from the top from rising airtemperatures. Would that not give meltwater from snow and frozen rainwater? Meaning it would be freshwater?”
Well, unless what I was taught was wrong….Bergs primarily melt from the bottom due to the much higher specific heat of the water they are floating in.
After a needed good night sleep i had a second look.
If icebergs melt from the top or bottom turns out to be irrelevant: Its still fresh(er)water.
As ice forms in salt water, there is no room in the crystal for salt. Most of the salt
is squeezed out of the ice structure and the resulting ice is less salty than when it began to freeze. In the polar regions, where seawater freezes to form sea ice, the ice is not as salty as the seawater from which it formed.
If the ice was formed on land it would offcourse be all freshwater from frozen rain.
@John from CA July 13, 2010 at 2:47 pm
The Calcium comes from the shells of dead shellfish indeed. Even the ocean recycles. 😉
As the ability to dissolve is dependent on temperature the calciumcarbonate will be less able to stay dissolved in lower temperatures and form sediment.
As the temperature goes up so will the concentration of calciumcarbonate and thus CO2 in the air ( via the principle you stated :
2H3O+ + CO3^2- CO2(g) + 3H2O ( As its a balance the arrows should point both ways ))
This would also explain the lag in time for CO2 to catch up with temperatures.
Some may be interested in these cross-sections of the ocean temperature which goes down all the way down to the bottom (produced by the US Navy). The temperature at the very deepest parts of the ocean should signal the temperature of the densest ocean water.
First a cross-section which shows the coldest water around Antarctica in the Weddell Sea at 45W, 70S (under the sea ice since it hasn’t melted out in this area in several years). It is mainly below 0.0C all the way to the bottom at 4500 metres.
http://www.usgodae.org/las/output/B77EA093A30E6C583FA33C6F5C375E6B_plot_image.gif
Second, a cross-section which gives the best view of the cold water in the Arctic Ocean at 10W. It is also below 0.0C and some is -1.5C (with the deepest part at 4000 metres -1.0C or so).
http://www.usgodae.org/las/output/D5F4CB371C7A36CA1AD38B77EE5332DD_plot_image.gif
And then a cross-section of the Pacific Ocean at 140W. It is mainly about 1.0C at the deepest levels at 5500 metres (seems to be about the same in the deeper trenches at 6600 metres as well).
http://www.usgodae.org/las/output/1CE2E8968291D9EBADCC1BC84DFC040F_plot_image.gif
The salinity profile shows that it is not a really big factor. There is not a great deal of difference for the deeper oceans (more at the surface).
http://www.usgodae.org/las/output/76D8AA34E595111406C56344C159B94E_plot_image.gif
Richard says:
July 14, 2010 at 3:30 am
Ice by construction is fresh water, it is the crystal form of H2O. If it crystallizes gradually the non H2O is excluded easily. If it freezes fast, some brine may be trapped in bubbles. Ice itself is fresh/sweet ( as we say in greek 🙂 ).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_ice
Sea ice may be contrasted with icebergs, which are chunks of ice shelves or glaciers that calve into the ocean. Icebergs are compacted snow and hence are fresh water from the beginning; sea ice loses its salt during its process of formation from sea water and thus eventually is fresh as well.
Richard says:
July 14, 2010 at 3:30 am
“This would also explain the lag in time for CO2 to catch up with temperatures.”
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Glad to hear you caught some zzzzs (a good nights sleep).
…”catch up with temperature” — exactly the same conclusion of most Scientists –> “temperature drives CO2 not the other way around”.
Its also a interesting aspect of Ocean cycles and perhaps cycles of temperature driven acidification.
@ur momisugly anna v July 14, 2010 at 11:10 am
Other source but the same conclusion. Thanks for stating my point.
@ur momisugly John from CA
I’m trying to form the bigger picture. I’ve been around long enough to know most things in life go around in circles.
Even within our bodies energy moves in circles.
Mother earth has been around for a long time and has seen and expierienced a lot of things before we were even here. She has her own set of rules to deal with annoing little critters like us.
If Climate “science” is ever to succeed they will have to understand the past and for them selves learn how these mechanisms work and not program computers to give them the results they want. Remember yesterday, dream about tomorrow, but live today.
But back to science before i get too mushy.
As i can recollect CO2 lags warming with about some 600 years?
If anyone has a recent CO2 / Temp chart it might be interesting to see where we were 600 years ago qua temperature. Wasn’t that around the MWP?!
@ur momisugly Richard
…”they will have to understand the past and for them selves learn how these mechanisms work”
Anna dropped a comment in a blog a while back that led me to a NASA post I think you’ll enjoy; “When Sun’s Too Strong, Plankton Make Clouds”.
http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/environment/0702_planktoncloud.html
As a defense mechanism, Plankton make clouds to prevent sunburn. Given that this evolutionary feat didn’t occur yesterday, one has to wonder. But its an amazing example of a compensating factor in nature.
It also has to be nearly impossible to predict its impact on conditions that directly effect weather over time and thus climate unless climate is either hot or cold.
It will truly be amazing when the models manage to unify all the factors – assuming that is even theoretically possible.
Vostok Ice Cores: The 800 year lag
http://joannenova.com.au/global-warming/ice-core-graph/
I think the counter point is that CO2 may not be the initial driver but its a major pain when things warm up.
Interesting, MWP as a driver in conjunction with emissions. It brings up an interesting issue. Where are the CO2 measurements taken and what percentage is identifiable as Industrial?
@ur momisugly John
Medieval Warm Period was 9th to 13th Centuries , add 800 years to that and we have a CO2 high starting in the 18 hundreds untill 2100.
How very inconveniant, lets get ridd of the Medieval Warm Period. Wait a minute: That sounds familiar..
Still searching for site location though.