Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
There have been lots of articles lately discussing the retraction by the UK Sunday Times of their claims about Amazongate. Folks like George Monbiot are claiming that their point of view has been vindicated, that Amazongate is “rubbish” and that skeptics have been “skewered”. So I decided to follow the tortuous trail through the Amazon jungle, to see where the truth lies.
Figure 1. The long, twisted, rainy jungle trail leading to the facts …
First, what did the IPCC say that caused all of the furor? Here’s the quote:
Up to 40% of the Amazonian forests could react drastically to even a slight reduction in precipitation; this means that the tropical vegetation, hydrology and climate system in South America could change very rapidly to another steady state, not necessarily producing gradual changes between the current and the future situation (Rowell and Moore, 2000). It is more probable that forests will be replaced by ecosystems that have more resistance to multiple stresses caused by temperature increase, droughts and fires, such as tropical savannas. (IPCC, PDF, p. 596)
Scary stuff, climates tipping to a new steady state, 40% of the Amazon rainforest changing to savanna …
Now, this is referenced to Rowell and Moore (PDF). The first problem that arises is that this is a World Wide Fund for Nature (WWF) overview piece, and is as far from peer-reviewed science as one can imagine. The WWF says:
Up to 40% of the Brazilian forest is extremely sensitive to small reductions in the amount of rainfall. In the 1998 dry season, some 270,000 sq. km of forest became vulnerable to fire, due to completely depleted plant-available water stored in the upper five metres of soil. A further 360,000 sq. km of forest had only 250 mm of plant-available soil water left. 46
Note that already we see a difference between the citation (such as it is) and the IPCC statement. The WWF says that the forest is “extremely sensitive” to “small reductions” in rainfall. The IPCC has upped the ante, saying the forest could “react drastically” to “even a slight reduction” in rainfall. In addition, the IPCC has added an uncited claim that the South American “vegetation, hydrology and climate system” could suddenly change to a new “steady state” … be very afraid.
Now, the WWF paragraph has a citation (46). This is:
46 D. C. Nepstad, A. Veríssimo, A. Alencar, C. Nobre, E. Lima, P. Lefebvre, P. Schlesinger, C. Potter, P. Mountinho, E. Mendoza, M. Cochrane, V. Brooks, Large- scale Impoverishment of Amazonian Forests by Logging and Fire, Nature, 1999, Vol 398, 8 April, pp505
The problem is that their citation only supports the second half of the paragraph, the part that relates to the 1998 dry season. It says nothing about the extreme sensitivity of the Amazon. It says nothing about a new “steady state.” Even Dr. Lewis, who convinced the Times to issue the retraction, admits this:
The 40% claim is not actually referenced in the Rowell & Moore 2000 report (they use Nepstad to reference the specific figures in the next sentence). The Nepstad Nature paper is about the interactions of logging damage, fire, and periodic droughts, all extremely important in understanding the vulnerability of Amazon forest to drought, but is not related to the vulnerability of these forests to reductions in rainfall. I don’t see how that can be the source of Rowell’s 40% claim. Its more likely an unreferenced statement by Rowell.
And there, the trail stops. Despite Pachauri’s oft-repeated claim that the IPCC is based 100% on peer reviewed science, the IPCC has referenced a WWF document which:
1. Is not peer reviewed, and
2. Has no further citation for the claim.
So why did the Times have to retract their claim? It was the result of a letter sent to the Times by Dr. Simon Lewis, who claimed that a) he had been misquoted, and b) the IPCC claim was scientifically accurate.
From Dr. Lewis’s statement, I do believe he was misquoted. However, that does not mean that the IPCC statement was correct. Dr. Lewis defends it, saying:
The IPCC statement itself is poorly written, and bizarrely referenced, but basically correct. It is very well known that in Amazonia tropical forests exist when there is more than about 1.5 meters of rain a year, below that the system tends to ‘flip’ to savanna, so reductions in rainfall towards this threshold could lead to rapid shifts in vegetation.
Indeed, some leading models of future climate change impacts show a die-off of more than 40% Amazon forests, due to projected decreases in rainfall. The most extreme die-back model predicted that a new type of drought should begin to impact Amazonia, and in 2005 it happened for the first time: a drought associated with Atlantic, not Pacific sea-surface temperatures. The effect on the forest was massive tree mortality, and the remaining Amazon forests changed from absorbing nearly 2 billion tonnes of CO2 from the atmosphere a year, to being a massive source of over 3 billion tonnes.
The Amazon drought impacts paper was written by myself and colleagues in Science (attached). Here is the press release explaining the sensitivity: http://www.leeds.ac.uk/news/article/36/amazon_carbon_sink_threatened_by_drought
Now, there’s a couple of things to note about this claim. First, other than a paper by Dr. Lewis himself about Amazon carbon sinks, there are no citations. The paper about carbon sinks is interesting, but it does not show anything about a “flip” to savannah, and doesn’t mention the 40% claim.
Second, he does not present any evidence that the 40% statement is correct. Instead, he says that climate models show that the statement is correct … Now, climate model results are interesting, but they are not evidence of anything but the assumptions of the programmers of the models.
And in fact, the 40% claim is called into question by another paper by the same Nepstad cited by the WWF document. It says:
During the severe drought of 2001, PAW10m [plant-available soil water to 10 metres depth] fell to below 25% of PAWmax in 31% of the region’s forests and fell below 50% PAWmax in half of the forests.
Now, if the Amazon were so sensitive, if it “could react drastically” to even a “slight reduction” in rainfall, certainly such a large reduction would make a big difference … but that didn’t happen. There was no “flip” to savannah mentioned in the paper.
Third, Dr. Lewis seems to want us to think that some fraction of the rainforest becoming savannah is supportive of the IPCC claim that:
… the tropical vegetation, hydrology and climate system in South America could change very rapidly to another steady state …
That’s just misdirection. Dr. Lewis does not provide any evidence in support of the alarmist claim that the South American climate is in danger of a rapid change to some other steady state. Which is no surprise to me, since I know of no historical evidence of such a rapid large-scale change in the tropical climate to a much dryer state.
And finally, even Dr. Lewis recognizes that there is no scientific certainty about this question, saying:
This is not to say this there isn’t much uncertaintly as to exactly how vulnerable how much of the Amazon is to moving to a savanna system.
Well … yeah. Given that uncertainly, his claim that the IPCC statement is “basically correct” is unsupportable. “Much uncertainty” means that we cannot make scary statements like the IPCC has done, and we certainly can’t say that they are “basically correct”. All we can say is that they are uncertain.
Before going on to look at some actual data, lets review the story so far:
1. The IPCC made a claim that “Up to 40% of the Amazonian forests could react drastically to even a slight reduction in precipitation”, and that the South American climate could change rapidly to a new steady state.
2. This was referenced to a WWF review paper which was not peer reviewed.
3. The WWF paper had no citation for that claim.
4. Dr. Lewis says the claims are correct. However, like the IPCC, he does not provide a citation for his claim that the 40% statement is correct. He points us to a 2009 paper, of which he is a co-author. It doesn’t contain any support for the 40% claim. He refers to a few climate models, but shows no evidence.
5. Dr. Lewis says that there is “much uncertainty” about the question.
6. Dr. Lewis does not provide any evidence to support the idea that the South American climate is likely to change rapidly to a new steady state.
Now, having reviewed the story so far, lets think about this a bit dispassionately. First, is it theoretically possible for the Amazon to “flip” from rainforest to savannah?
Certainly it can. If the Amazon rainfall went to a tenth of the current value, it would all be savannah. So how much would a “slight reduction” affect the Amazon rainforest?
To investigate this, we can look at the amounts of rainfall around the Amazon. Figure 2 compares the vegetation and the rainfall:
Figure 2. Vegetation map of central South America. The Amazon rainforest is dark green. Violet rectangle show area of measured rainfall shown below in Fig. 3. Red lines show rainfall in millimetres per year.
There are several things we can see from this map. First, rainfall is not the only thing that is limiting the Amazon rainforest. There are areas with less than 1600 mm which are rainforest, and areas with more than 1600 mm which are not rainforest.
Second, at the left edge of the rainforest, we have the Andes mountains. In these areas, the Amazon is limited by elevation rather than by rainfall.
Now, suppose that the rainfall drops by 10%. I’d call that a “slight reduction” in rainfall. Will that affect 40% of the rainforest? No way. If we were to shrink all of the red lines by 10%, we’d only get about a 20% reduction in area … but there are large areas which are not rainfall limited in that sense. So a 10% reduction in rainfall might, and I emphasize might, give us a maximum of a 20% reduction in rainforest area. To get to 40% rainforest loss, we’d need a large reduction in rainfall, not a slight reduction.
But who is claiming that there will be a large reduction in Amazon rainfall? That is a model prediction, and not even one that appears in all of the models. Dr. Lewis says:
Indeed, some leading models of future climate change impacts show a die-off of more than 40% Amazon forests, due to projected decreases in rainfall.
This, of course, also means that some leading models do not show a die-off. Even the models don’t all agree with the IPCC claim.
However, all of this, all of the claims and counterclaims, and the models, and Dr. Lewis’s letter, and the cited scientific documents, all run aground on one ugly fact:
The data shows no change in Amazon rainfall in a century of measurements.
Figure 3 shows three different ground-based observational datasets, along with the recent Tropical Rainfall Measuring Mission (TRMM) satellite data.
Figure 3. Four Amazon rainfall datasets, covering the rectangular area shown in violet in Fig. 2 (2.5°N–12.5°S, 72.5°W–50°W). Note the generally good agreement between the four datasets (including the TRMM satellite data)
The main feature of this dataset is its stability. Note the lack of any trend over the last century, and the lack of any large excursions in the rainfall. It stays between two and two and a half metres per year. There are no really wet years, and no really dry years. 95% of the years are within ± 10% of the average rainfall. There are individual dry years, but no prolonged periods of drought.
So while Dr. Lewis says (correctly) that rainforest can change to savannah, he is not correct that 40% of the Amazon is at risk from a “slight reduction” in rainfall. More to the point, there is no evidence to indicate that we are headed for a reduction in Amazon rainfall, “slight” or otherwise. That is a fantasy based on climate models.
The reality is that despite the globe warming by half a degree or so over the last century, there has been no change in the Amazon rainfall. As usual, the IPCC is taking the most alarmist position possible … and Dr. Lewis is doing all he can to claim that the IPCC alarmism is actually good science.
Unfortunately for both the IPCC and Dr. Lewis, here at the end of a long, twisted, and rainy jungle trail, we find that the facts inconveniently disagree with their claims.
[UPDATE] Credit where credit is due. I love writing here because I always learn something. The Amazongate story was originally broken by Richard North, whose blog is EUReferendum. Give it a look, lots of good stuff.
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Shub Niggurath says:
June 27, 2010 at 2:26 pm
I’m in this game to make a difference, not to make a name. The less I care about the latter, the more I am able to do the former.
Look, I understand that now, and I’ve posted an update to the head post. But for Richard to bust me for something that I was totally unaware of was a bridge too far. I’m happy to give credit where credit is due, I just didn’t know the back story. I don’t hold it against Richard, it’s just a cautionary tale about assumptions.
Stephen Skinner says:
June 27, 2010 at 3:40 pm
[–snip for brevity–]
I disagree. I think what you have described is everything to do with climate change and is not a theory. The effect of slash and burn on a large scale in the Amazon was observed as far back as 1865 when the sugar plantations were expanding. This is a key excerpt: “This destruction of the forests has exhausted the soil, which in many places now produces nothing but grasses suitable for grazing cattle. The temperature has intensified, and the seasons have become irregular. The rains at times damage the crops, and at other times there is not rain at all”.
Also, have you read ‘The Damned’ by Fred Pearce?
I find myself questioning that remark about the change in precipitation.
Here in Northwest Washington, there was a great degree of logging going on back in the 1980’s such that when viewed from the air, there was an alarming denuding of the landscape in the National Forests of the Cascades.
However, such didn’t stop the torrential rains common to the region, and in fact there was much concern over the matter because of the flooding caused by the lack of trees on the hillsides which had been logged.
In fact, that concern continued even after the logging had pretty much abated. If denuding the landscape was supposed to change the precipitation patterns, it sure as heck made no difference here!
So I’m going to think that there’s some iffy statements being made by the author of that book.
That the temperatures intensified, I could understand, what with there being no tree cover to moderate matters. But the precip remarks bother me no end.
richard Telford says:
June 27, 2010 at 2:44 pm
Richard, as I pointed out in the head post, I know that if there’s not enough rainfall to sustain a rainforest, it will be replaced by some other ecosystem.
My objection is to the unsupported claims that
a) it would be a sudden change wherein “the tropical vegetation, hydrology and climate system in South America could change very rapidly to another steady state, not necessarily producing gradual changes between the current and the future situation”.
b) there is observational evidence that such a change is coming or is likely.
c) this change could be precipitated by a “slight reduction” in rainfall.
I find none of those to be even remotely credible.
Derek B says:
June 27, 2010 at 3:32 pm
Strange that you would feel you had to write to us about it, rather than write to Lewis …
Sadly, you have mistaken the original context, which is not Nepstad, but is the IPCC report on what climate models prognosticate. In that original context of a PlayStation™ World, the climate can do a host of wondrous things … so?
Al Gored says, June 27, 2010 at 3:18 pm
Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this but there is a growing body of evidence that more than just climate has shaped the past Amazon. This was first brought to the attention of the broader public in Charles C. Mann’s book ’1491′ and the more they look, the more they find. …
Al Gored says, June 27, 2010 at 3:27 pm
Here’s another link related to my last post. The underlying point is that until European impacts – notably smallpox – the Amazon was not the great ‘wilderness’ rain forest that the WWF et al like to see it as. There were millions of people there, effectively managing much of the landscape for their own needs. …
Al, I hear you man. I did inject enthno-ecological theory into this thread at June 27, 2010 at 9:47 am and again at June 27, 2010 at 11:12 am.
But we’re talking way over these people’s heads here. They are on a mission to discredit Moon Bat, WWF, and the IPCC. Which is like shooting fish in a barrel IMHO and frankly, a little boring. They are even arguing about who got the first lick in. It’s an chest thumping thing.
All the while, nobody here but you and me (and 899) have a clue about the actual ecological development pathways in Amazonia or the overwhelming historical human influences there. By overwhelming, I mean that humanity has played a bigger role than “climate change” in establishing and maintaining various vegetation types like “rain forest” and “savanna”, which btw are fairly nonspecific glosses that fail to describe the actual variety of vegetation types in that vast landscape.
Thank you for the references. Mann, McKey, Heckenberger, et al are doing cutting edge research. Maybe in a few years or decades the rest of the science “establishment” will catch up. Right now the distraction of pseudo-post-normal-politicized-junk science has captured everybody’s attention. Which is understandable. Still, I think it’s too bad most folks don’t realize that the actual truth is not part of the discussion, right now. It could help them. It could help us all to understand what’s really going on.
PS – thank you, too, 899.
There is a least one example of 40% of the Amazon turning into Savanna – during the ice ages that is.
Temperatures were 1C to 3C lower in this region at the time and CO2 levels were mostly 200 ppm and lower. The C3 rainforest plants have a hard time growing when CO2 levels are this low and temperatures are high (as they still would have been in the Amazon even at 1C to 3C lower than today). The stomata have to increase in size due to the lower CO2 levels and this leads to more transpiration of water through the stomata.
So with higher CO2 levels, the C3 rainforest plants don’t need as much rainfall as they would have needed at 280 ppm.
So with global warming as a result of higher CO2 levels, I say they are not, in fact, succeptible to a small reduction in rainfall. They will grow even better in the areas which do not have as much rainfall as the current Amazon rainforest gets.
Mike D. says:
June 27, 2010 at 5:42 pm
Oh, please. Just because the subject of this thread is not the historical human impact on the Amazon doesn’t mean that I and many others are not aware of it. I’ve read about it for years. But it has nothing to do with what we are discussing in this thread, which is the IPCC and Dr. Lewis and the WWF and the use of non-peer-reviewed sources and the lack of data to support their claims and related issues.
Now if you want to discuss how humans have impacted the Amazon since the year zero I’m not going to stop you, although I’d much prefer if you found a thread where that is actually what people are interested in talking about.
But for you to lash out with gratuitous insults, just because we haven’t hopped on your hobby-horse du jour, is not polite behaviour.
Stephen Skinner you posted
“The effect of slash and burn on a large scale in the Amazon was observed as far back as 1865 when the sugar plantations were expanding. This is a key excerpt: “This destruction of the forests has exhausted the soil, which in many places now produces nothing but grasses suitable for grazing cattle. The temperature has intensified, and the seasons have become irregular. The rains at times damage the crops, and at other times there is not rain at all”.
Recent research has found that following land clearance there is in the short term a negative effect in rainfall but in the longer term there is no change. You are incorrect regarding exhaustion of the soil in fact the effect is the opposite. When the land is cleared for pasture it eventually degrades, when left fallow you get is secondary forest or it is suitable for plantation timber as has occurred with more than 30% of cleared land in the Brazilian forests.
The green hypocrits.
I wil bring out the issue that is not on this thread. We have the extremists scream against deforestation of the Amazon jungle. Now we have them peddle the moral superiority of ethanol fuels.
Can’t have it both ways. Sugar came if a pollutant at many levels.
1 It is burning the gields before it is harvested causes soot and CO2.
2 The brewing process is petrol energy intense
3 It destroys the strength of the soil
4 Clearing forrests for cash crops is kinda linke a step back in carbon capture.
WOW!!!
The single benefit? Sugar cane is much more energy efficient is terms of consuming BTU’s before it turns into ethanol It is sugar from the beginning
Corn starches must be treated and processed with additional steps befo0re the starches are turned into sugars and then ethanol.
The sustainable energy drive within the green movement is contrary to the ideology that protects forrests. They want to wipe out the jungle for biofuels.
Many years ago (about 40 or so) when I was much younger, I was a member of the World Wildlife Fund (WWF) because at that time they seemed to be very focused on world wildlife – trying to save some of it and trying to make many of us more aware of it. Now that they have become the World Wide Fund or the World Warming Fund or whatever they are working on these days, I have little interest in supporting them. I think they are still known as the World Wildlife Fund even though it is difficult to see why.
Real data speaks much more clearly than models. And in my opinion that’s all that is needed to prove this point. Thanks for showing us the data.
Hi, Willis,
You know I have spent years exploring the Amazon jungle and I can tell you it is nonsense to speak about depeltion of water 5 -10 metres below the surface, and plants drying up. That is utter nonsense. It is well beyond any doubt that about 80% of the Amazon region is lateritic, that is, soil that has been lixiviated by rains losing most nutrients. The soil becomes a red (iron rich) and hard clay base covered by a mere two to three inch of decomposed organic material (leaves falling from trees, dead trunks, dead fern, etc).
Trees and other plants don’t sink their roots into the hard lateritic clay because it is har as steel. They have long and widely extenden superficial root thriving on those 3 inches of organic rotting material.
There are parte huge of the Amazon where I lived where aquifers are between 10 and 26 meteres. That water comes from snow and glacier melting in the Andes. Drilling there is by means of rotatory drill, due to the softer clay. On the east side there is a hard bedrock starting at around 30 meteres (called the Guaporé shield or “escudo de Guaporé”) where we must use oil drilling techniques (impact drilling) to pierce through the rock. The water is found then between 100 and 200 meters deep.
This Guaporé rock shield is composed of crystalline precambric rocks and it is the most ancient geological macro unit in Bolivia.
There is a good paper on the 2005 drought in the Amazon area that I encourage you to have a look: http://tinyurl.com/264r89k “THE DROUGHT OF AMAZONIA IN 2005” by José A. Marengo et al.
It says: “River streams. Previous studies (See reviews in Marengo et al. 2006 and Ronchail et al. 2002) have identified negative rainfall anomalies in Amazonia associated with El Niño-Southern Oscillation (ENSO) events and to SST anomalies in the tropical Atlantic as well. The studies have linked some of major droughts in Amazonia to (a) the occurrence of intense El Niño events, (b) strong warming in the surface waters of tropical North Atlantic during the Northern Hemisphere summer-autumn season, or (c) both. Very intense El Niño events have been associated with the extreme droughts in 1925-26, 1982-83 and 1997-98 and the last two also experienced intense warming in the tropical North Atlantic along with warming in the equatorial Pacific. There is evidence of extensive droughts, and perhaps widespread fires, linked to paleo ENSO events occurred in the Amazon basin in 1,500, 1000, 700 and 400 BP, and these events might have been substantially more severe than the 1982-83 -and 1997-98 ones (Meggers 1994). The best documented case of an earlier drought event in Amazonia linked to El Niño event was during 1925-26 (Sternberg 1987, and Williams et al. 2005). Rainfall anomalies in the central-northern Brazilian Amazonia and southern Venezuela in 1926 were about 50% lower than normal.
[snip]
Regardless the systematic differences among all data sets, the rainfall series in northern Amazonia (Fig. 2a) show the large negative departures during the droughts of 1963-64, 1980-81, 1982-83, 1997-98 and 2005 in northern Amazonia. The index derived from rainfall stations shows the year 1998 with negatives anomalies of the order of 1.5 mm/day while 2005 exhibited 1 mm/day below normal, implying that the drought of 1998 was more intense than that of 2005.
There is a lot of BS in this issue!
Mike Roddy says:
June 27, 2010 at 8:08 am
I believe Dr. Simon, not Willis Eschenbach, who can only get published in fossil fuel supported rags like Energy and Environment.
I am sick and tired of the uppity arrogance of the CAGW cultists.
My country’s laws consider me a reasonable person; good enough to vote, to serve as a member of jury and to judge the facts of a murder case that may end with the accused found guilty and imprisoned for life. But I am not good enough to judge the facts as presented by climatologists. But this is just the beginning of the CAGW cultists’ shameless, immoral change of goalposts as it suits them.
When a skeptic says “I am reasonable as well as an intelligent and informed person”, CAGW cultists will reply “yes, but you haven’t got the higher education necessary to understand the details. Just who do you think you are?”
When a skeptic says “I have a university degree in Law”, the cultists will reply, “See? Ignorant dolt! It is Law, not Science.”
When a skeptic says “I have a degree in science, and PhD to boot, in physics, chemistry, medicine, etc “, then the cultists will say “As you’ve confessed, you are no expert in Climatology; so shut up already!”
When a skeptic says “Well, I have a degree plus in Climatology”, the cultist will say “Well, how long have you been in the field and what have you published lately? Show us your quality.”
When a skeptic shows his years of experience and his published articles in the field of Climatology, the cultist will say claim “they are not peer-reviewed, not original, not scientifically ‘cutting edge’, etc”
When a skeptic shows his/her peer-reviewed articles published in Climate Science literature, the cultists will say “Anybody can get reviewed and published in journals funded by big oil, big coal, etc. By scientific literature, we meant reputable scientific journals.” A skeptic may say “yes, I’ve been published in reputable journals, as well”. Then, the cultists will reply, “How many times, and when was the last time?”
Of course that is not the biggest problem facing the reasonable, intelligent, well-informed, scientist with a degree and a PhD in Climatology. The biggest problem facing him/her is to pass the peer-review process of those so-called reputable journals, which have been forced to toe the CAGW line by cultist bullies; the bullies who say they will re-define “peer-review”, if they have to, in order to keep the contrarian views out.
And once they have done that too, the cultists are then free to attack anyone, scientist or not, on the grounds of being uninformed and/or lacking credibility and what not.
Meanwhile, the high priests of the CAGW cult are happy to portray, and play ball with, the vast percentage of population that has been duped into their apocalyptic eco-cult as ‘intelligent’, ‘informed’, ‘scientifically literate’, ‘aware’, ‘concerned’, etc, citizenry that rightfully demand justice for planet Earth.
What an uppity, arrogant, intolerable, hypocritical and vicious circus that this CAGW cult has become!
REPLY: Well said, would you have any objections to elevating this to full post status? – Anthony
Willis Eschenbach says:
June 27, 2010 at 6:56 pm
“But it has nothing to do with what we are discussing in this thread, which is the IPCC and Dr. Lewis and the WWF and the use of non-peer-reviewed sources and the lack of data to support their claims and related issues.”
Willis, here’s why I think the pre-contact human impacts on the Amazon are relevant, if admittedly off your main tangent.
You wrote: “First, is it theoretically possible for the Amazon to “flip” from rainforest to savannah?
Certainly it can. If the Amazon rainfall went to a tenth of the current value, it would all be savannah…
To investigate this, we can look at the amounts of rainfall around the Amazon. Figure 2 compares the vegetation and the rainfall…”
So let’s imagine that some researcher did some pollen or other historical vegetation analysis and found evidence of that savannah. They might assume that that meant it had something to do with rainfall and even create some historical weather/climate graph… perhaps even something hockey stickish. In reality, that savannah could have been due to indigenous human activity, period.
In regards to the WWF et al, their whole schtick is that once upon a time the Amazon was a pristine ‘wilderness’ of wall to wall rainforests, and that that was the ‘natural’ state that must be ‘saved.’ (This is the basic idea for the whole North American ‘wilderness’ movement and the baseline for the so called restoration projects of the Conservation Biology gang.) In this case this ‘natural’ Amazon is supposed to have been the ‘natural’ carbon sink that has supposedly saved the planet from CO2 planetary fever up to now (excuse my exaggeration). But the recent ‘natural’ Amazon wasn’t natural, at least since humans arrived there long ago. So its just one more aspect of why this whole story is a crock, albeit a minor one.
So that’s why I posted what I did and why I thought it was relevant.
I truly appreciate your articles and your excellent analysis on a broad spectrum of topics. You obviously know a lot about a lot, and do an excellent job communicating that. But sometimes, as in your response to Mike D, you do seem as thin skinned as Obama. Chill. Enjoy. Maybe someday an off tangent comment will stir a thought you hadn’t previouisly considered.
B. McCune says:
June 27, 2010 at 7:30 pm
“Many years ago (about 40 or so) when I was much younger, I was a member of the World Wildlife Fund (WWF) because at that time they seemed to be very focused on world wildlife – trying to save some of it and trying to make many of us more aware of it. Now that they have become the World Wide Fund or the World Warming Fund or whatever they are working on these days…”
Me too. Used to donate regularly, and contribute in other ways. Now I call them the World Watermelon Fund. They just use green issues for another agenda.
Al Gored says:
June 27, 2010 at 8:32 pm
Thanks, Al. I just get tired sometimes of people coming in and saying in essence “you idiots don’t know anything”. Or in MikeD’s words:
Right. We don’t have a clue …
Yes, there are many valid issues in the history of the Amazon, which (like many things in climate science) is not as well understood as many people believe. Some of them, as you point out, are relevant to this discussion. And random comments are often surprisingly valuable.
What is not relevant is coming in and calling everybody on the site clueless. You are correct, I am touchy about that. I’m not willing to have people come here and trash up my thread with baseless accusations … there are a lot of very smart people who either post or lurk here, I’m not willing to let them be abused at random.
Now, having reviewed the story so far, lets think about this a bit dispassionately. First, is it theoretically possible for the Amazon to “flip” from rainforest to savannah?
Certainly it can. If the Amazon rainfall went to a tenth of the current value, it would all be savannah. …
So while Dr. Lewis says (correctly) that rainforest can change to savannah, …
Willis,
None of that is true. It is just not how ecosystems work. Savannas are not climate induced. They occur across wide bands of rainfall and temperature. They are not “dried up” rainforests. If climates were to change, and a rainforest suddenly started receiving 1/10th of the rain it does today, it would not become a savanna.
But maybe more to the point, there are deeper epistemological issues at play. The control of the land, for better or worse, should belong to the local residents. Whether they log it or not, graze it or not, burn it or not.
Amazonia is not tabula rasa, largely devoid of history, a canvas for narratives about wilderness, purity, the lungs of the earth, a stomping ground for WWF or the UN or any other foreign overseer. People live there. It’s their backyards. It’s theirs to manage however they see fit, without interference from outsiders.
The struggle today is really about local autonomy versus global autocracy. In my view, that’s what the AGW “conflict” is about at a fundamental level. So yes, my hobby horse du jour is humanity, our role in “nature,” and our freedom to be in control of our own lives. I think all that exceedingly relevant to this discussion thread. Consider it a gratuity from me to you.
Anthony,
I’d be honoured. Please feel free to correct the errors and flesh it out as you wish. I’d be delighted to have you as my co-author.
Kind regards.
Mike D. says:
June 27, 2010 at 11:59 pm
Yeah, you’re right. Some of the rainforest would become savanna, some would become mixed forest, some montane or sub-montane forest … so what? That is nitpicking that has nothing to do with my point, which was that if we had 10% of the rainfall, we wouldn’t have rainforest, it would flip to some other ecosystem.
There are epistemological issues at play? Have you notified the local residents of Amazonia, so they can be on the lookout for them?

Epistemology is the study of the nature and scope of knowledge. I don’t have a clue how that relates to whether someone logs the Amazon. I agree that locals should have control over their own land.
I agree completely, with the normal caveat about how your undoubted freedom to swing your fist stops at the end of my nose.
There is a struggle about local autonomy versus global autocracy. And that, as you point out, is an important issue.
But I fail to see what that important issue has to do with the discussion of whether the IPCC is making unsubstantiated claims, whether about the Amazon or the Himalayas. This thread is not about the “AGW conflict”, whatever that might or might not be. This thread is about the IPCC’s claims about the Amazon, and whether they are true or not. And in general, it is considered polite to discuss the issues that are the subject of the thread, and not to try to drag a thread around to what you might like the thread to be about.
Consider that a gratuity from me to you …
Models models models, if only the world could be made to agree. then we could all by little plastic kits of our perfect “model” and we’d all be happy, well 40% would be.
I believe a scientist should have the last word on Amazongate.
From a 2010 working paper by Hector Maletta:
To sum up: even for the most outspoken proponents of the “tipping point” hypothesis about the Amazon, such as Cox, Nepstad, Lenton and their collaborators, the possibility of an Amazon abrupt dieback is a highly uncertain event, a mere possibility dependent on the chances of the establishment of a persistent or nearly permanent El Niño, and the latter has itself, if any, a very small probability, with evidence not showing any consistent trend, and even if it happens it would develop over a very long time. In the most favourable case, for which no evidence is presented, a transition to more amplitude in ENSO (not to a permanent El Niño) would happen “within this millennium” but definitively well after this century, and without any sign of a threshold to be passed or having been passed. More ENSO amplitude would not mean a permanent El Niño, and no consistent signal exists for marked decrease of precipitation over the Amazon, and less so for the near future. No proof is offered that this hypothetical millennial increase in ENSO amplitude would imply a permanent
El Niño (it is rather the opposite), or would be the effect of a tipping point reached by critical human decisions taken this century, which are the durations required by the rather arbitrary political and ethical time horizons proposed by Lenton et al.19 Even if an ENSO tipping point (assuming it exists) is reached this century, its supposed effects (a persistent El Niño) would not materialize for many centuries, and likewise would consequently happen with one of its alleged consequences, i.e. decreased Amazon precipitation triggering forest dieback.
The problem with “their claims and related issues” is that they spring from the romantic myth of a pristine Amazonian “state of nature,” which works against anyone trying to inject a modicum of realism into what is, at bottom, an ideological issue. If the press and public at large were more aware of Mann’s and other work revealing the vast scale of human modification of the Amazon (the the rest of the New World), they might not be so easily succored into supporting the claims of eco-aggrandizers like the WWF and their scientific allies.
I suspect Mike D did not mean to cast aspersions on Willis; he was expressing a sense of frustration that this underlying ideological problem is never addressed. Willis is of course correct that it was not the topic of his post, which dealt with narrower issues. “Nobody. . . have a clue” was obviously a poor choice of words!
Anthony, how about enlisting Mike D and/or others to discuss in a guest post or two the recent discoveries of pre-Columbian modification of the Amazonian environment and their implications for the ongoing debate about the alarmist IPCC claims?
/Mr Lynn
Erratum: Parens in my first paragraph should read:
“(AND the rest of the New World)”
/Mr L (wishing we could edit our comments. . . )
“…some leading models of future climate change impacts show a die-off of more than 40% Amazon forests, due to projected decreases in rainfall.”
So if we plug the results from one set of unverified climate models for “projected decreases in rainfall” into a second set of unverified models on Amazon Jungle impact, we see 40% die-off?
Next, we plug those results into another model and find something even scarier…
Willis: Great article…. Thank you.
What has intrigued me is how the Rowell and Moore statement 40% of the Brazilian forest gets translated into 40% of the Amazonian forests by the IPCC.
According to Wikipedia the Amazon Rainforest supports five and a half million square kilometers of rainforest.
Brazil contains 60% of the rainforest while the other 40% is shared between Peru, Colombia, Venezuela, Ecuador, Bolivia, Guyana, Suriname and French.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Rainforest
However, Wikipedia really is a star when it comes to looking at the Amazon Basin because it states The basin is located mainly (40%) in Brazil and that The South American rain forest of the Amazon is the largest in the world, covering about 8,235,430 km2 with dense tropical forest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Basin
The difference in the numbers might have something to with the WWF selection of rainforest http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Amazon_rainforest.jpg from within the Amazon Basin http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Amazonriverbasin_basemap.png/600px-Amazonriverbasin_basemap.png
Either way: 40% of the Brazilian forest DOES NOT EQUAL 40% of the Amazonian forests.
Willis Eschenbach says:
June 28, 2010 at 4:23 am
[–big snip for brevity–]
But I fail to see what that important issue has to do with the discussion of whether the IPCC is making unsubstantiated claims, whether about the Amazon or the Himalayas. This thread is not about the “AGW conflict”, whatever that might or might not be. This thread is about the IPCC’s claims about the Amazon, and whether they are true or not. And in general, it is considered polite to discuss the issues that are the subject of the thread, and not to try to drag a thread around to what you might like the thread to be about.
When you consider the entirety of the matter, it all ties in.
I fully understand your stand on why you want to focus on just one aspect, as you’ve written of it.
But that narrow focus tends to ignore the larger implications. The WWF and their cadre of insiders have it in mind to remove man from the Amazon equation, inasmuch as they’ve purchased —or have plans for such— large tracts of that area.
Virtually all of that is predicated upon receiving money from ‘carbon credits.’ That is, they buy the land, exclude man, and get paid many times more than they paid for the land. And that repeats itself many times over.
If they had their druthers, they’d eliminate man completely from large areas of the world, and thence declare that whatever change in the weather patterns were as a result of that removal were beneficial, even if the impacts are adverse consequences.