Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
There seem to be a host of people out there who want to discuss whether humanoids are responsible for the post ~1850 rise in the amount of CO2. People seem madly passionate about this question. So I figure I’ll deal with it by employing the method I used in the 1960s to fire off dynamite shots when I was in the road-building game … light the fuse, and run like hell …
First, the data, as far as it is known. What we have to play with are several lines of evidence, some of which are solid, and some not so solid. These break into three groups: data about the atmospheric levels, data about the emissions, and data about the isotopes.
The most solid of the atmospheric data, as we have been discussing, is the Mauna Loa CO2 data. This in turn is well supported by the ice core data. Here’s what they look like for the last thousand years:
Figure 1. Mauna Loa CO2 data (orange circles), and CO2 data from 8 separate ice cores. Fuji ice core data is analyzed by two methods (wet and dry). Siple ice core data is analyzed by two different groups (Friedli et al., and Neftel et al.). You can see why Michael Mann is madly desirous of establishing the temperature hockeystick … otherwise, he has to explain the Medieval Warm Period without recourse to CO2. Photo shows the outside of the WAIS ice core drilling shed.
So here’s the battle plan:
I’m going to lay out and discuss the data and the major issues as I understand them, and tell you what I think. Then y’all can pick it all apart. Let me preface this by saying that I do think that the recent increase in CO2 levels is due to human activities.
Issue 1. The shape of the historical record.
I will start with Figure 1. As you can see, there is excellent agreement between the eight different ice cores, including the different methods and different analysts for two of the cores. There is also excellent agreement between the ice cores and the Mauna Loa data. Perhaps the agreement is coincidence. Perhaps it is conspiracy. Perhaps it is simple error. Me, I think it represents a good estimate of the historical background CO2 record.
So if you are going to believe that this is not a result of human activities, it would help to answer the question of what else might have that effect. It is not necessary to provide an alternative hypothesis if you disbelieve that humans are the cause … but it would help your case. Me, I can’t think of any obvious other explanation for that precipitous recent rise.
Issue 2. Emissions versus Atmospheric Levels and Sequestration
There are a couple of datasets that give us amounts of CO2 emissions from human activities. The first is the CDIAC emissions dataset. This gives the annual emissions (as tonnes of carbon, not CO2) separately for fossil fuel gas, liquids, and solids. It also gives the amounts for cement production and gas flaring.
The second dataset is much less accurate. It is an estimate of the emissions from changes in land use and land cover, or “LU/LC” as it is known … what is a science if it doesn’t have acronyms? The most comprehensive dataset I’ve found for this is the Houghton dataset. Here are the emissions as shown by those two datasets:
Figure 2. Anthropogenic (human-caused) emissions from fossil fuel burning and cement manufacture (blue line), land use/land cover (LU/LC) changes (white line), and the total of the two (red line).
While this is informative, and looks somewhat like the change in atmospheric CO2, we need something to compare the two directly. The magic number to do this is the number of gigatonnes (billions of tonnes, 1 * 10^9) of carbon that it takes to change the atmospheric CO2 concentration by 1 ppmv. This turns out to be 2.13 gigatonnes of carbon (C) per 1 ppmv.
Using that relationship, we can compare emissions and atmospheric CO2 directly. Figure 3 looks at the cumulative emissions since 1850, along with the atmospheric changes (converted from ppmv to gigatonnes C). When we do so, we see an interesting relationship. Not all of the emitted CO2 ends up in the atmosphere. Some is sequestered (absorbed) by the natural systems of the earth.
Figure 3. Total emissions (fossil, cement, & LU/LC), amount remaining in the atmosphere, and amount sequestered.
Here we see that not all of the carbon that is emitted (in the form of CO2) remains in the atmosphere. Some is absorbed by some combination of the ocean, the biosphere, and the land. How are we to understand this?
To do so, we need to consider a couple of often conflated measurements. One is the residence time of CO2. This is the amount of time that the average CO2 molecule stays in the atmosphere. It can be calculated in a couple of ways, and is likely about 6–8 years.
The other measure, often confused with the first, is the half-life, or alternately the e-folding time of CO2. Suppose we put a pulse of CO2 into an atmospheric system which is at some kind of equilibrium. The pulse will slowly decay, and after a certain time, the system will return to equilibrium. This is called “exponential decay”, since a certain percentage of the excess is removed each year. The strength of the exponential decay is usually measured as the amount of time it takes for the pulse to decay to half its original value (half-life) or to 1/e (0.37) of its original value (e-folding time). The length of this decay (half-life or e-folding time) is much more difficult to calculate than the residence time. The IPCC says it is somewhere between 90 and 200 years. I say it is much less, as does Jacobson.
Now, how can we determine if it is actually the case that we are looking at exponential decay of the added CO2? One way is to compare it to what a calculated exponential decay would look like. Here’s the result, using an e-folding time of 31 years:
Figure 4. Total cumulative emissions (fossil, cement, & LU/LC), cumulative amount remaining in the atmosphere, and cumulative amount sequestered. Calculated sequestered amount (yellow line) and calculated airborne amount (black) are shown as well.
As you can see, the assumption of exponential decay fits the observed data quite well, supporting the idea that the excess atmospheric carbon is indeed from human activities.
Issue 3. 12C and 13C carbon isotopes
Carbon has a couple of natural isotopes, 12C and 13C. 12C is lighter than 13C. Plants preferentially use the lighter isotope (12C). As a result, plant derived materials (including fossil fuels) have a lower amount of 13C with respect to 12C (a lower 13C/12C ratio).
It is claimed (I have not looked very deeply into this) that since about 1850 the amount of 12C in the atmosphere has been increasing. There are several lines of evidence for this: 13C/12C ratios in tree rings, 13C/12C ratios in the ocean, and 13C/12C ratios in sponges. Together, they suggest that the cause of the post 1850 CO2 rise is fossil fuel burning.
However, there are problems with this. For example, here is a Nature article called “Problems in interpreting tree-ring δ 13C records”. The abstract says (emphasis mine):
THE stable carbon isotopic (13C/12C) record of twentieth-century tree rings has been examined1-3 for evidence of the effects of the input of isotopically lighter fossil fuel CO2 (δ 13C~-25‰ relative to the primary PDB standard4), since the onset of major fossil fuel combustion during the mid-nineteenth century, on the 13C/12C ratio of atmospheric CO2(δ 13C~-7‰), which is assimilated by trees by photosynthesis. The decline in δ13C up to 1930 observed in several series of tree-ring measurements has exceeded that anticipated from the input of fossil fuel CO2 to the atmosphere, leading to suggestions of an additional input ‰) during the late nineteenth/early twentieth century. Stuiver has suggested that a lowering of atmospheric δ 13C of 0.7‰, from 1860 to 1930 over and above that due to fossil fuel CO2 can be attributed to a net biospheric CO2 (δ 13C~-25‰) release comparable, in fact, to the total fossil fuel CO2 flux from 1850 to 1970. If information about the role of the biosphere as a source of or a sink for CO2 in the recent past can be derived from tree-ring 13C/12C data it could prove useful in evaluating the response of the whole dynamic carbon cycle to increasing input of fossil fuel CO2 and thus in predicting potential climatic change through the greenhouse effect of resultant atmospheric CO2 concentrations. I report here the trend (Fig. 1a) in whole wood δ 13C from 1883 to 1968 for tree rings of an American elm, grown in a non-forest environment at sea level in Falmouth, Cape Cod, Massachusetts (41°34’N, 70°38’W) on the northeastern coast of the US. Examination of the δ 13C trends in the light of various potential influences demonstrates the difficulty of attributing fluctuations in 13C/12C ratios to a unique cause and suggests that comparison of pre-1850 ratios with temperature records could aid resolution of perturbatory parameters in the twentieth century.
This isotopic line of argument seems like the weakest one to me. The total flux of carbon through the atmosphere is about 211 gigtonnes plus the human contribution. This means that the human contribution to the atmospheric flux ranged from ~2.7% in 1978 to 4% in 2008. During that time, the average of the 11 NOAA measuring stations value for the 13C/12C ratio decreased by -0.7 per mil.
Now, the atmosphere has ~ -7 per mil 13C/12C. Given that, for the amount of CO2 added to the atmosphere to cause a 0.7 mil drop, the added CO2 would need to have had a 13C/12C of around -60 per mil.
But fossil fuels in the current mix have a 13C/12C ration of ~ -28 per mil, only about half of that requried to make such a change. So it is clear that the fossil fuel burning is not the sole cause of the change in the atmospheric 13C/12C ratio. Note that this is the same finding as in the Nature article.
In addition, from an examination of the year-by-year changes it is obvious that there are other large scale effects on the global 13C/12C ratio. From 1984 to 1986, it increased by 0.03 per mil. From ’86 to ’89, it decreased by -0.2. And from ’89 to ’92, it didn’t change at all. Why?
However, at least the sign of the change in atmospheric 13C/12C ratio (decreasing) is in agreement with with theory that at least part of it is from anthropogenic CO2 production from fossil fuel burning.
CONCLUSION
As I said, I think that the preponderance of evidence shows that humans are the main cause of the increase in atmospheric CO2. It is unlikely that the change in CO2 is from the overall temperature increase. During the ice age to interglacial transitions, on average a change of 7°C led to a doubling of CO2. We have seen about a tenth of that change (0.7°C) since 1850, so we’d expect a CO2 change from temperature alone of only about 20 ppmv.
Given all of the issues discussed above, I say humans are responsible for the change in atmospheric CO2 … but obviously, for lots of people, YMMV. Also, please be aware that I don’t think that the change in CO2 will make any meaningful difference to the temperature, for reasons that I explain here.
So having taken a look at the data, we have finally arrived at …
RULES FOR THE DISCUSSION OF ATTRIBUTION OF THE CO2 RISE
1. Numbers trump assertions. If you don’t provide numbers, you won’t get much traction.
2. Ad hominems are meaningless. Saying that some scientist is funded by big oil, or is a member of Greenpeace, or is a geologist rather than an atmospheric physicist, is meaningless. What is important is whether what they say is true or not. Focus on the claims and their veracity, not on the sources of the claims. Sources mean nothing.
3. Appeals to authority are equally meaningless. Who cares what the 12-member Board of the National Academy of Sciences says? Science isn’t run by a vote … thank goodness.
4. Make your cites specific. “The IPCC says …” is useless. “Chapter 7 of the IPCC AR4 says …” is useless. Cite us chapter and verse, specify page and paragraph. I don’t want to have to dig through an entire paper or an IPCC chapter to guess at which one line you are talking about.
5. QUOTE WHAT YOU DISAGREE WITH!!! I can’t stress this enough. Far too often, people attack something that another person hasn’t said. Quote their words, the exact words you think are mistaken, so we can all see if you have understood what they are saying.
6. NO PERSONAL ATTACKS!!! Repeat after me. No personal attacks. No “only a fool would believe …”. No “Are you crazy?”. No speculation about a person’s motives. No “deniers”, no “warmists”, no “econazis”, none of the above. Play nice.
OK, countdown to mayhem in 3, 2, 1 … I’m outta here.




Does the CO2 level in the trapped ice represent the composition of the original air or is it the final equilibrium concentration between the trapped air and compressed snow. If it is an equilibrium then it would be a low level and very constant like that shown in Figure 1.
http://www.igsoc.org/journal/21/85/igs_journal_vol21_issue085_pg291-300.pdf
CO2 in Natural Ice
Stauffer, B | Berner, W
Symposium on the Physics and Chemistry of Ice; Proceedings of the Third International Symposium, Cambridge (England) September 12-16, 1977. Journal of Glaciology, Vol. 21, No. 85, p 291-300, 1978. 3 fig, 5 tab, 18 ref.
Natural ice contains approximately 100 ppm (by weight) of enclosed air. This air is mainly located in bubbles. Carbon dioxide is an exception. The fraction of CO2 present in bubbles was estimated to be only about 20%. The remaining part is dissolved in the ice. Measurements of the CO2 content of ice samples from temperate and cold glacier ice as well as of freshly fallen snow and of a laboratory-grown single crystal were presented. It is probable that a local equilibrium is reached between the CO2 dissolved in the ice and the CO2 of the surroundings and of the air bubbles. The CO2 content of ancient air is directly preserved neither in the total CO2 concentration nor in the CO2 concentration in the bubbles. Possibly the CO2 content of ancient air may at least be estimated if the solubility and the diffusion constant of CO2 in ice are known as a function of temperature. (See also W79-09342) (Humphreys-ISWS)
Descriptors: Ice | Carbon dioxide | Snow | Gases | Laboratory tests | Testing procedures | Instrumentation | Measurement | Hail | Alkalinity | Hydrogen ion concentration | Analysis | Analytical techniques | Data collections | Dissolved gases
This graph is too ‘smooth’.
I’d like to see the graph of each site individually and with the x axis stretched out a little. The reason is that elsewhere (Geophysical Research Letters 33) Law Dome CO2 level is reported as being relatively flat from 1940-1955 while general emissions were rising.
Variations within individual sites which may cast doubt upon the relentlessly increasing CO2 hypothesis are masked by this ‘conglomerate graph’ and by compression of the axes. This graph gives the impression that there is little or no variation within or between site records which could well be false, though masked by the presentation.
Off Topic, but I’ve been following the evolution of David Hathaway’s “Solar Cycle Predictions” of the sunspot cycle for a while. I’ve noticed that when he posts the current month’s real data, he quietly adjusts his predicted curve to fit the real data.
This month he has the cycle peaking in 2013 and having a peak of about 65. Last month, the modeled peak was 70. November 2009 it was about 78. And back in July 2007 his model predicted a peak of 150 in mid 2010.
One thing that has always struck me about atmospheric CO2, as measured by ice cores, is how stable it appears to be over thousands of years, pre-modern times. Certainly, the climate has not been stable during all those years, yet there is CO2 basically doing nothing. Based on the volatility of climate and Earth in general, I got this gut instinct that something is wrong with the ice core CO2 records – they’re just too damn stable when it comes to CO2.
Here’s a short-term chart I ran across that adds to the thought that old ice core data for the long-term is not accurately reflecting CO2 levels existing during past climate conditions. Obviously, CO2 ppm level growth is influenced by climate changes, at least in the short run.
http://www.c3headlines.com/2010/02/hold.html
Are the ice core data just too coarse to reflect accurate CO2 levels from natural phenomenon, such as the major ocean oscillations? Or, do the ice cores “lose” the majority of the CO2 signal over time?
Daniel H says:
June 7, 2010 at 4:02 am
That would be a bit difficult, as
Keelingdied in 2005, refer to my recent links back to Anthony’s discussion with Pieter Tans, the current MLO director.MLO does release a lot of data, can you be more explicit about what you are looking for that you can’t get from them?
Your comment wasn’t very explicit.One starting point is:http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/obop/mlo/livedata/livedata.html
Willis, you owe Jimmy Buffet big time.
Be ashamed!
Douglas Cohen
June 7, 2010 at 4:49 am
The several hundred year delay between an increase in temperature and the corresponding increase in CO2 revealed by the ice core measurements, (eg Vostok) during glacial to interglacial transitions requires a net transfer of CO2 from the oceans and terrestrial biosphere to the atmosphere.
In contrast, between 1850 and 2000, human caused emissions of CO2 from burning fossil fuels equalled 1620 billion tons CO2, whereas the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere increased by only 640 billion tons. (data from Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Centre). There is no way in which that can be explained other than by a net transfer of CO2 from the atmosphere to the oceans/biosphere, the opposite of the former process.
Human emissions of CO2 are more than able to explain recent increases in atmospheric CO2.
Ben M says:
Are you sure the CDIAC dataset is accurate
I think CDIAC is reasonable data but might be exaggerated as the real conversion to CO2 is not as efficient as calculated. Maybe the sequestered CO2 is about the same as the remaining CO2. If that’s true, it is easy to remember and tell others.
Where is all that sequestered CO2 going?
The oceans yes, but things sure are looking green here in Georgia. When we moved from drought two years ago to more rain than we know what to do with, this part of the planet has blossomed like a peach tree.
Slabadang says:
June 7, 2010 at 3:11 am
Asking someone to prove a negative is a bit of a dirty trick, but it’s easy to disprove your “no one” claim. Just ask Google. Very little is all good or all bad, and more research is warranted and I’m sure in progress.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/11/1122_021125_CropYields.html
http://www.co2science.org/articles/V13/N10/B2.php
Oslo says:
June 7, 2010 at 3:53 am
I don’t understand your complaint – in Willis’ graph, the MLO record is displayed as the lowest level and with large dots. That allows the icecore data to stand out on top of the MLO data where there is overlap. Mann discarded data he didn’t like, used data he liked, and obscured what he did. Willis’ graph is above board on all three accounts.
The graph that you offer is interesting, but since it covers 650,000 years, the MLO record is only about one pixel wide and the time aspect is is compressed into essentially no information.
The instrumental record on Willis’ graph is plenty disjoint from the proxy data by style, color, and number of samples. At least, that’s my reading of it.
The trouble is one thing is “trapped heat” other the supposed “greenhouse effect”, and:
CO2 follows temperature, not the other way. Open a coke and you´ll see it: The more you have it in your warm hand the more gas will go out when you open it.
CO2 is the transparent gas we all exhale (SOOT is black=Carbon dust) and plants breath with delight, to give us back what they exhale instead= Oxygen we breath in.
CO2 is a TRACE GAS in the atmosphere, it is the 0.038% of it.
There is no such a thing as “greenhouse effect”, “greenhouse gases are gases IN a greenhouse”, where heated gases are trapped and relatively isolated not to lose its heat so rapidly. If greenhouse effect were to be true, as Svante Arrhenius figured it out: CO2 “like the window panes in a greenhouse”, but…the trouble is that those panes would be only 3.8 panes out of 10000, there would be 9996.2 HOLES.
See:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/28018819/Greenhouse-Niels-Bohr
CO2 is a gas essential to life. All carbohydrates are made of it. The sugar you eat, the bread you have eaten in your breakfast this morning, even the jeans you wear (these are made from 100% cotton, a polymer of glucose, made of CO2…you didn´t know it, did you?)
You and I, we are made of CARBON and WATER.
CO2 is heavier than Air, so it can not go up, up and away to cover the earth.
The atmosphere, the air can not hold heat, its volumetric heat capacity, per cubic cemtimeter is 0.00192 joules, while water is 4.186, i.e., 3227 times.
This is the reason why people used hot water bottles to warm their feet and not hot air bottles.
Global Warmers models (a la Hansen) expected a kind of heated CO2 piggy bank to form in the tropical atmosphere, it never happened simply because it can not.
If global warmers were to succeed in achieving their SUPPOSED goal of lowering CO2 level to nothing, life would disappear from the face of the earth.
So, if no CO2 NO YOU!
“During the ice age to interglacial transitions, on average a change of 7°C led to a doubling of CO2. We have seen about a tenth of that change (0.7°C) since 1850, so we’d expect a CO2 change from temperature alone of only about 20 ppmv.”
Is the relationship linear? It appears that the assumption here is that it is. Although, even if it is exponential the difference at this stage (.7C) of CO2 attributed to temperature rise would not be substantially different than if the relationship was linear.
This valuable post mentions a large source of CO2 which has not been given wide publicity – cement manufacture. The warmers will now start lobbying for reduction in thickness of roads, cobblestone pavements, smaller buildings, no new bridges or other large concrete construction. With the new smaller cars which will give greater gas mileage, weaker roadways should be adequate, and the future of the earth should be assured.
Willis,
“I’m outta here.”
A very wise decision.
test comment
[Note: there is a “Test” menu on the page mast head. ~dbs, mod.]
Claims that cement manufacture introduce significant CO2 are the work of people who don’t understand science. Sadly that includes the US Government. When the cement is mixed with water, it absorbs the CO2 back from the atmosphere. Without CO2 the cement would never harden.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland_cement
“Carbon dioxide is slowly absorbed to convert the portlandite (Ca(OH)2) into insoluble calcium carbonate. “
Willis, I am concerned about your frustration level with AGWers coupled with your great intelligence and precise math. You wrote, “People seem madly passionate about this question. So I figure I’ll deal with it by employing the method I used in the 1960s to fire off dynamite shots when I was in the road-building game … light the fuse, and run like hell …” Yes, but….The dynamite is carefully placed in a surveyed and planned area for the roadway — and, of course, human activities and the geology around that future road have been carefully taken into consideration.
Yes, sometimes you can take the “opposition’s” figures and research for granted and work out the science. However, if those figures are not accurate or do not take the complexity of conditions into account, I am not sure they can be valid. As I first read the essay, a number of red flags went up in my mind:
1,2,and3. Ice cores, ice cores, ice cores. Too much depends on CO2 registration in ice core data which has been neatly been fitted to Mann’s Hockey Stick without enough checking and cross checking. Next are you taking the CDIAC dataset at face value when we know how much, dare I say it, dishonest, fudging the data upward has been done with the temperature (thermometer) data? Can you assert that this data can be fully trusted in its current “official” state. Then there is the chemistry, perhaps more complex than you suggest (Slioch 2:41 am). Then there is the rather amazing history of climate and human activities during warm periods (tonyb 1:42 am). Are you really sure that there was no rise in CO2 because of (at least) outgassing from the oceans during those times — like 1850 to today? Is the flat line from ice cores reasonable to a reasonable mind?
Abadang 3:11 seems appropriate: “To me the work on climate science more describes how little we know, rather than how much.” I think you give the “warmists” (I wish it were warming) too much credit for accurate data and interpretation. Richard Courtney 2:43 am) gives a long disposition on the complexities you dismiss: “But it is important to understand that there is no evidence which could be said to prove the matter.” Your argument is too close, too similar, to that of the pseudo-scientists who published in Nature — since there was a mass migration of humans to the New World before the Holocene and because we know they killed off the megafauna, and because warmth of the earth depended on the methane in megafauna burps, we know that humans were the cause of the Younger Dryas — just like we are the cause of warming today. Watts Up With That argument?
Anyway, I like your ending. Thanks for your coninuing efforts to keep the discussion-debate lively. Next time, don’t run like hell.
Statement written for the Hearing before the US Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation
Climate Change: Incorrect information on pre-industrial CO2
March 19, 2004
Statement of Prof. Zbigniew Jaworowski
Chairman, Scientific Council of Central Laboratory for Radiological Protection
Warsaw, Poland
Figures 1A and 1B
The data from shallow ice cores, such as those from Siple, Antarctica[5, 6], are widely used as a proof of man-made increase of CO2 content in the global atmosphere, notably by IPCC[7]. These data show a clear inverse correlation between the decreasing CO2 concentrations, and the load-pressure increasing with depth (Figure 1 A). The problem with Siple data (and with other shallow cores) is that the CO2 concentration found in pre-industrial ice from a depth of 68 meters (i.e. above the depth of clathrate formation) was “too high”. This ice was deposited in 1890 AD, and the CO2 concentration was 328 ppmv, not about 290 ppmv, as needed by man-made warming hypothesis. The CO2 atmospheric concentration of about 328 ppmv was measured at Mauna Loa, Hawaii as later as in 1973[8], i.e. 83 years after the ice was deposited at Siple.
Sorry the figure did not copy. However, for Willis to be correct Prof. Jaworowski must be wrong. I doubt he intentionally lied to Congress.
Good analysis Willis. My only concern is the relative amount of CO2, anthropogenic vs. not. I have the following stored from a few years ago, without the source, which seems to be the basis for the 3% anthro-CO2 contribution to the annual CO2 budget that is often quoted.
CO2 EMISSIONS :
1. Respiration Humans, Animals, Phytoplankton 43.5 – 52 Gt C/ year
2. Ocean Outgassing (Tropical Areas) 90 – 100 Gt C/year
3. Volcanoes, Soil degassing 0.5 – 2 Gt C/ year
4. Soil Bacteria, Decomposition 50 – 60 Gt C/ year
5. Forest cutting, Forest fires 0.6 – 2.6 Gt C/year
Anthropogenic emissions (2005) 7.5 – 7.5 Gt C/year
TOTAL 192 to 224 Gt C/ year
The table shows the range of estimates of natural CO2 and human production in 2005 (Gt C/year is Gigatons of Carbon per year). Accuracy has not improved since. Notice the human contribution is within the error range of three (1, 2, & 4) of the natural sources. The total error range is almost 5 times the amount of total human production.
Further, I have read that the amount of CO2 emitted by termites is enormous, 50 gigatons/year. In thinking about termites, it occurs to me that what they are consuming is wood that is probably at least 40 years old, often older, considering the life cycle of trees. Would their diet of old wood skew the C12/13 ratios by releasing the C that was sequestered in the wood decades earlier?
Source for termite CO2 production: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/218/4572/563
Harry says:
June 7, 2010 at 1:16 am
RULES FOR THE DISCUSSION OF ATTRIBUTION OF THE CO2 RISE
Amen!
Didn’t work too well on the debate about Ravetz’ theory, where the main protagonist of ad hominem attacks and extreme language was…. Willis Eschenbach.
😉
The Stauffer/Berner paper addresses the same points made by Jarorowski about the validity of the Ice cores as a measurement of previous atmospheric CO2 levels. Jarowowski maintained that the ice was not a closed system as pertains to CO2.
When one looks at the Vostoc ice core record, it is apparent that the older the core, the more obvious the lag between the change in temperature and the change in CO2. The point has already been made that the stomatal measurements of CO2 show much more variability and do not track the ice core records. There has been no mention of Beck’s compilation of >90,000 historical CO2 measurements which showed a post war rise in CO2 to about 400 ppm, which would make the peak just after the warm period of the 30’s and during WWII. Callender showed similar variability but then selected those values he thought fit the theory. It is surprising that no one is actually publishing research on the question of movement of CO2
through glacial ice in light of the evidence that ice may not give an accurate picture of CO2 levels.
Willis
I’ll make a deal.
When we’re talking serious science I’ll happily call ’em “AGW Supporters” “AGW Believers” or even “Nervous Climate Scientists”, if you prefer.
But when they are arguing for Trillions of Pounds / Dollars to be spent NOW screwing up the sources of energy on which the economy depends, on the basis of junk science scare stories, then I’m gonna keep on calling ’em “eco-fascist nut jobs”.
Just put it down to Tourette’s.
Sorry, can’t help myself!
anna v June 7, 2010 at 4:37 am
Thanks for that.
@richard S Courtney says: June 7, 2010 at 2:43 am
You left out (13) Manufacturing bread and booze.
Don’t think that affects your argument too much, though.
Although it would be interesting to know how much (globally) fermentation produces. Probably a piece more than we save by using those pesky “energy saving” light bulbs.
I agree, but many, many folks, including scientists, use “I believe” to mean, inter alia, “I think,” “I suppose,” “In my opinion,” “I am more or less convinced,” etc., etc. Some time ago I suggested to Willis that he eschew the terms “believe” and “belief,” in favor of more specific language, but he dismissed the idea.
Back on topic, it will be interesting to see how Willis responds to the comments above that raise doubts about the validity of the ‘observed’ rise in CO2 (that tags recent atmospheric measurements on to old ice-core ones) and about the role of the oceans in the carbon cycle. Do these affect his belief (= confidence?) that the CO2 spike (if it is real) is mostly anthropogenic?
BTW, what contribution do forest/wildfires make to atmospheric CO2? Will they not mimmic fossil-fuel combustion?
/Mr Lynn