Readers may recall this story last week: Ad hoc group wants to run attack ads
Here’s their formal response. I’m providing this from: http://www.openletterfromscientists.com for all to see here and to discuss. – Anthony
An Open Letter from Scientists in the United States on the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and Errors Contained in the Fourth Assessment Report: Climate Change 2007
[Note: More than 250 scientists have already signed this open letter and signatures are still being collected. On Friday, March 12, 2010, when the letter has been delivered to federal agencies, a list of signers will be posted. The vast majority of the signers are climate change scientists who work at leading U.S. universities and institutions. They include both IPCC and non-IPCC authors. Additional signers include professionals from related disciplines, including physical, biological and social scientists. If you are a scientist wishing to sign the letter, please see the note below. If you have any questions, please contact the letter’s authors, contact information is below.]
Dear Colleagues:
We have written an open letter about the IPCC process, media attention, errors, and suggestions for improvement, which we are circulating to both IPCC authors and other scientists in the US. We plan to send the letter to the US Congress, State Department, EPA, NOAA, the Office of Science and Technology Policy, the Council on Environmental Quality, and other relevant US agencies and organizations.
If you would like to be a co-signer of the letter, please send your name and institutional affiliation to Gary Yohe at gyohe@wesleyan.edu by close of business on Friday, March 12. A note on the letter will say: ‘Signatories’ affiliations are listed for identification only and should not be interpreted as representing official institutional positions.’
Because it won’t be possible to coordinate multiple versions, we do not plan to edit this letter further at this juncture. However, if you do have comments, please feel free to include them in your email response.
Please circulate the open letter to your colleagues if you would like. We apologize for any cross-listings in advance.
Best,
Gary Yohe
Steve Schneider
Cynthia Rosenzweig
Bill Easterling
***********************************************
Many in the popular press and other media, as well as some in the halls of Congress, are seizing on a few errors that have been found in the Fourth Assessment Report (AR4) of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) in an attempt to discredit the entire report. None of the handful of mis-statements (out of hundreds and hundreds of unchallenged statements) remotely undermines the conclusion that “warming of the climate system is unequivocal” and that most of the observed increase in global average temperatures since the mid-twentieth century is very likely due to observed increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations. Despite its excellent performance for accurately reporting the state-of-the-science, we certainly acknowledge that the IPCC should become more forthcoming in openly acknowledging errors in a timely fashion, and continuing to improve its assessment procedures to further lower the already very low rate of error.
It is our intention in offering this open letter to bring the focus back to credible science, rather than invented hyperbole, so that it can bear on the policy debate in the United States and throughout the world. We first discuss some of the key messages from climate science and then elaborate on IPCC procedures, with particular attention to the quality-control mechanisms of the IPCC. Finally we offer some suggestions about what might be done next to improve IPCC practices and restore full trust in climate science.
The Climate Challenge
Our understanding of human contributions to climate change and the associated urgency for humans to respond has improved dramatically over the past two decades. Many of the major components of the climate system are now well understood, though there are still sources of significant uncertainty (like the processes that produce the observed rapid ice-sheet melting and/or collapse in the polar regions). It is now well established, for example, that atmospheric concentrations of greenhouse gases from human sources have increased rapidly since the Industrial Revolution. Increasing concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere reduce the heat going out of the climate system, i.e., the radiation balance of the Earth – and so first principles of physics tell us to expect, with a very high likelihood, that higher temperatures should have been observed.
Indeed, measurements of global average temperatures show an increase of about 0.6 degrees C over the twentieth century and about 0.8 degrees C warming since mid-19th century. The pattern of increase has not been smooth or monotonic. There have been several 10- to 15-year periods of stable or declining temperatures over the past 150 years, but 14 of the warmest 15 years on record have been experienced between 1995 and 2009. Since 1970, observational evidence from all continents and most oceans shows that many natural systems are already being affected by these temperature increases.
Because the long-term warming trends are highly significant relative to our estimates of the magnitude of natural variability, the current decadal period of stable global mean temperature does nothing to alter a fundamental conclusion from the AR4: warming has unequivocally been observed and documented. Moreover, well-understood lags in the responsiveness of the climate system to disturbances like greenhouse gas increases mean that the current temperature plateau will very likely not persist much longer. Global climate model projections show that present-day greenhouse gas concentrations have already committed the planet to about 0.5 degree C in warming over this century.
Increasing emissions of carbon dioxide from the consumption of coal, oil and natural gas as well as deforestation have been the major drivers of this observed warming. While we cannot predict the details of our climate future with a high degree of certainty, the majority of studies from a large number of research groups in the US and elsewhere project that unabated emissions could produce between 1 and 6 degrees C more warming through the year 2100.
Other research has identified multiple reasons to be concerned about climate change; these apply to the United States as well as globally. They include (1) risks to unique and threatened systems (including human communities), (2) risks from extreme events (like coastal storms, floods, droughts, heat waves, and wildfires), (3) economic damages (driven by, for example, pest infestations or inequities in the capacity to adapt), (4) risks from large-scale abrupt climate change (e.g., ice-sheet collapse, ocean circulation slowing, sharply increased methane emissions from permafrost) or abrupt impacts of more predictable climate change (generated by thresholds in the coping capacities of natural and human systems to climate variability), and (5) risks to national security (driven largely by extreme events across the world interacting with already-stressed situations).
These sources of risk and the potential for triggering temperature-driven impacts at lower thresholds, as well as the explicit recognition in the AR4 that risk is the product of likelihood and consequence, led the nations of the world to take note of the Copenhagen Accord last December. The Accord highlights 2 degrees C in warming as a target that might reduce the chance of “dangerous anthropogenic interference with the climate system” to more manageable levels. Research has shown that increasing the likelihood of achieving this goal over the next century is economically and technically feasible with emission reduction measures and changes in consumption patterns; but it will not be easy without major national and international actions to deviate substantially from the status quo.
The IPCC and the Fourth Assessment Report
The World Meteorological Organization (WMO) and the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) established the IPCC in 1988 to provide policy makers regularly with balanced assessments of the state of knowledge on climate change. In so doing, they created an open intergovernmental organization in which scientists, policy analysts, engineers, and resource managers from all over the world were asked to collaborate. At present, more than 150 countries including the United States participate in the IPCC. IPCC publishes an assessment report approximately every six years. The most recent Fourth Assessment, approved by member countries and released in 2007, contained three volumes: The Physical Science Basis (Working Group I); Impacts, Adaptation and Vulnerability (Working Group II) and Mitigation of Climate Change (Working Group III) and a Synthesis Report. More than 44 writing teams and 450 lead authors contributed to the Fourth Assessment – authors who have been selected on the basis of their expertise in consultation with all member countries and who were assisted by another 800 scientists and analysts who served as contributing authors on specific topics. Authors donated their time gratis, and the entire process was supported by four Technical Support Units (TSUs) that employ 5 to 10 people each.
Errors in the Fourth Assessment Report
It was hard not to notice the extraordinary commotion that erupted around errors that were eventually found in the AR4. The wrong year for the projected disappearance of the Himalayan glaciers and the wrong percentage of ‘land below sea level’ in the Netherlands are examples of errors that need to be acknowledged frankly and rectified promptly. In a few other cases, like the discussion of the correlations between crop yields, climate change, and climate variability in North Africa, caveats that were carefully crafted within the chapters were not included when language was shortened for the Synthesis Report. While striving to simplify technical details and summarize major points, some important qualifications were left behind. These errors of omission in the summary process should also be recognized and corrected. Other claims, like the one reported at the end of February suggesting that the AR4 did not mention the millions of more people who will see increases in water availability that were reported in the cited literature along with the millions of more people who will be at risk of water shortage, are simply not true. In any case, it is essential to emphasize that none of these interventions alter the key finding from the AR4 that human beings are very likely changing the climate, with far-reaching impacts in the long run.
The heated debates that have emerged around these instances have even led some to question the quality and integrity of the IPCC. Recent events have made it clear that the quality control procedures of the IPCC are not watertight, but claims of widespread and deliberate manipulation of scientific data and fundamental conclusions in the AR4 are not supported by the facts. We also strongly contest the impression that the main conclusions of the report are based on dubious sources. The reference list of the AR4 contains about 18,000 citations, the vast majority of which were published in peer-reviewed scientific journals. The IPCC also has transparent procedures for using published but not peer-reviewed sources in their reports. These procedures were not properly followed in the isolated Himalaya case, but that statement was never elevated into the Summary for Policymakers of either Working Group II or the Synthesis Report – documents that were approved unanimously and word for word by all member nations.
Nonetheless, failsafe compliance with these procedures requires extra attention in the writing of the next round of assessments. We propose implementing a topic-based cross-chapter review process by which experts in an impact area of climate change, such as changes in water resources, scrutinize the assessment of related vulnerability, risk analyses, and adaptation strategies that work downstream from such changes. Here we mean, to continue the example, assessments of possible increases in flooding damage in river basins and the potential for wetlands to provide buffers in the sectoral and regional chapters. This would be most productively implemented just before the first-order draft, so that chapter authors can be alerted to potential problems before the major review step.
Quality Control within the IPCC and US Review
The impression that the IPCC does not have a proper quality-control procedure is deeply mistaken. The procedure for compiling reports and assuring its quality control is governed by well-documented principles that are reviewed regularly and amended as appropriate. Even now, every step in the preparation of every chapter can be traced on a website: First Order Drafts (with comments by many scientists as well as author responses to those comments), Second Order Drafts in which those comments are incorporated (and comments by experts and country representatives on revised versions as well as another round of author responses), and so on, up through the final, plenary-approved versions.
To be clear, 2,500 reviewers together provided about 90,000 comments on the 44 chapters for the AR4. Each comment is documented on a website that also describes how and why the comment was or was not incorporated in the next revision. Review editors for each chapter worked with the authors to guarantee that each comment was treated properly and honestly in the revision; in fact, no chapter can ever move forward for publication without the approval of its set of two or three review editors.
The US Government opened its reviews of the draft IPCC report to any US expert who wanted to review it. In order to protect against having this preliminary pre-reviewed draft leaked before its ultimate approval by the IPCC Plenary, the US Government asked all potential reviewers to agree not to disclose the contents of the draft. For each report, the US Government assembled its own independent panel of government experts to vet the comments before submission to the IPCC. Anything with scientific merit was forwarded. There were multiple rounds for each of the Working Group reports and the Synthesis Report, and opportunities for US experts to review the drafts were posted as Federal Register notices.
IPCC principles also govern how authors treat published but non-peer reviewed sources. These procedures acknowledge that peer-reviewed scientific journals contain little information about on-the-ground implementation of adaptation or mitigation – matters such as the emission reduction potential in a given industrial sector or country, for example, or catalogues of the specific vulnerabilities and adaptation strategies of sectors and regions with regard to climate change. This information is frequently only available in reports from research institutes, reports of workshops and conferences, or in publications from industries or other non-governmental organizations. This is the so-called gray literature. The IPCC procedure prescribes that authors are obliged to assess critically any gray source that they wish to include. The quality and validity of a finding from a non-peer reviewed source needs to be verified before its finding may be included in a chapter text. Each source needs to be completely traceable; and in cases where gray sources are used, a copy must be deposited at the IPCC Secretariat to guarantee that it is available upon request for third parties.
We conclude that the IPCC procedures are transparent and thorough, even though they are not infallible. Nonetheless, we are confident that no single scholar or small group of scholars can manipulate the process to include or to exclude a specific line of research; authors of that research can (and are fully encouraged to) participate in the review process. Moreover, the work of every scientist, regardless of whether it supports or rejects the premise of human-induced climate change, is subject to inclusion in the reports. The work is included or rejected for consideration based on its scientific merit.
It is important to note that we are not addressing here the criteria and procedures by which the IPCC selects chairs and authors. These are handled exclusively by the IPCC and its members according to terms of reference that were initially defined in the authorizing language of 1988. That is to say, governments or their appointees frame and implement these policies; and they create, approve and staff Technical Support Units for each working group. We do not make suggestions on these topics since they lie beyond our purview.
What comes next?
We expect that the robust findings of the AR4 will be continue to be supported by new information gleaned from literature published since 2006 — i.e., that the climate change issue is serious and real. Given these findings, we believe that the climate change issue deserves the urgent and non-partisan consideration of the country’s legislative and administrative leaders. We feel strongly that exaggerated focus on a few errors from 2007 cannot be allowed to detract from open and honest deliberations about how to respond to climate risk by reducing emissions and promoting adaptation at home and abroad.
As the process of producing the IPCC Fifth Assessment Report (AR5) begins, the IPCC should become more responsive in acknowledging errors rapidly and openly as they become known. To this end, we urge the IPCC to put an erratum on its website that rectifies all errors that have been discovered in the text after publication. In doing so, a clear distinction needs to be made between errors and progressing knowledge. IPCC assessments are detailed snapshots of the state of scientific knowledge at a given time, while knowledge evolves continuously through ongoing research and experience; it is the errors in the assessments that need immediate attention. In contrast, progressing knowledge is published in new scientific journal articles and reports; this information should be used as a basis for the AR5, but it cannot be listed as errata for the AR4 because it was not available when that assessment was conducted. The website should, as well, respond rapidly and openly when reports of errors in past assessments are themselves in error. We cannot let misperceptions fester anymore than errors go uncorrected.
Climate research and the IPCC reports on the state of knowledge provide a scientific foundation for climate policy making, whose agenda is defined by the governments of the IPCC and not the lead authors per se. The quality of and the balance in the knowledge delivered by any assessment is certainly essential, as is clear and explicit communication of associated uncertainties. Given the recent political and media commotion surrounding a few clear errors, it is now equally essential that we find ways to restore full trust in the integrity of the overwhelming majority of the climate change research and policy communities. To that end, we are pleased that an independent critical evaluation of IPCC procedures will be conducted; we hope that the process will solicit participation by the National Academies of the member nations.
The significance of IPCC errors has been greatly exaggerated by many sensationalist accounts, but that is no reason to avoid implementing procedures to make the assessment process even better. The public has a right to know the risks of climate change as scientists currently understand them. We are dedicated to working with our colleagues and government in furthering that task.
March 10, 2010
Signed:
Gary W. Yohe Wesleyan University and Yale School of Forestry and Environmental Studies
gyohe@wesleyan.edu
Stephen H. Schneider Stanford University
shs@stanford.edu
Cynthia Rosenzweig NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies and Columbia University
crosenzweig@giss.nasa.gov
William E. Easterling Pennsylvania State University
billeasterling@psu.edu

Read their letter and also stating that “ocean circulation slowing”,
Unless the planet stop rotating! The ocean circulation speed is determined by the planets rotational speed and not anything man can do to it.
Don (05:51:00) :
What exactly is a “climate change scientist?”
An AGW advocate with the name “climate change scientist” on his/her office door.
Looks like a whole lot of hand-waving to me.
I didn’t know law and economics were in the scientific field?
Looking at the list of signatures.
I do have a degree in B.S. also in SSDD.
Sorry, I do not want to make fun of the people or scientists that are ethical.
Just incredible (and I too could not bring myself to read all the way down) GIGI, GIGO
Why don’t these people understand that a scientist is by nature and profession a sceptic? Why can’t they bring their critical faculties to bear on the question? Kate and Smokey have the right of it.
Meanwhile, it’s the Cheltenham Festival this week – the ‘Olympics’ of jump racing. The Clerk of the Coruse is still agonising over whether to water, if so how much, and when…. because we can’t rely on the weather forecast to be correct for the week (esp important for the great showdown on Friday, Gold Cup Day) and to have ground too soft or too firm will be dangerous, besides inconveniencing too many horses.
Yes, yes – I know that’s ‘weather’ – but the forecasters use the same ‘super-computers’ as the long range climate johnnies….
eugene r wynsen md: As a physicist, I just wanted to address the couple of issues in your post that are scientific and where you have clearly been led astray.
First, you say:
You are confusing two different things here: The five-year timescale that you talked about is indeed the residence time for a carbon dioxide molecule in the atmosphere but it is not the relevant time for a decay of a perturbation in CO2 levels in the atmosphere. Here’s the picture: The atmosphere + biota + soils + mixed ocean layer are reservoirs for CO2 that have rapid exchange between them. Hence, when you add a certain amount of CO2 to the atmosphere, it quite rapidly partitions between these different reservoirs. However, this tightly coupled subsystem exchanges CO2 only slowly with the deep ocean and that is thus the rate-limiting step for the decay of additional CO2 introduced into this subsystem.
An analogy might help you to picture this: Imagine two tanks of water, A and B, each that hold 1000 gallons of water and that have two pumps, one that transports the water at 100 gallons/minute from tank A to tank B and the other that transports water at the same rate from tank B to A. Also imagine that there is a drain in tank B, although we will suppose that it is initially closed. Now suppose that I dump an additional 200 gallons into tank A and you want to know the residence time for molecules of those added water molecules in tank A. Well, the “residence time” is going to be about 10 minutes (because the reservoir size is 1000 gallons and the rate that it gets pumped from tank A to tank B is 100 gallons per minute). However, it is wrong to conclude that the extra 200 gallons of water that I put into tank A will have largely disappeared from the system after 10 minutes. In fact, with the drain in B closed, all that additional water will still be distributed in some way in tanks A and B. (Technically, as I have described the system, tank A will continue to have 200 gallons more of water than B, but one could amend my description so that the pump from A to B pumped a little bit more than that from B to A when A has more water and vice versa and then the extra water would end up evenly distributed between the two tanks.) An analogy closer to the reality of the system would then have the drain in B open but it would drain only slowly…and the time it took the extra 200 gallons to disappear from the system would depend solely on how fast water went down this drain.
In reality, the chemical processes by which the oceans absorb CO2 are quite complicated…and, as a result of this, the concept of a single decay time for a perturbation in CO2 levels is not even correct. It is in fact a highly non-exponential process and Solomon et al. are correct in their statement that a considerable fraction of the CO2 still remains after 1000 years and more.
(1) Positive feedbacks are not very uncommon in nature at all. In fact, all interesting patterns that you observe, ranging from snowflakes to sand dunes to washboard patterns on a dirt road are due to positive feedbacks so strong that they produce linear instabilities! By contrast, the positive feedbacks in the climate system are believed not to be this strong, but are strong enough to amplify the direct response due to just the change in greenhouse gas levels with everything held constant.
(2) Actually, those who study paleoclimate conclude that the earth’s climate system is quite sensitive to small perturbations. See, for example, this short perspectives article in Science: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/sci;306/5697/821 There are also negative feedbacks, the most important being the feedback described by the Stefan-Boltzmann (S-B) equation itself, i.e., that as the earth warms it emits more radiative energy, hence tending to re-establish radiative balance. There are also likely important negative biogeochemical feedbacks that operate on geological timescales. For example, when the earth was in its cold “snowball” or “slushball” states, the ice and snow prevented rocks from being exposed to weathering; hence greenhouse gases from volcanic eruptions…CO2 in particular…were not removed from the atmosphere by these weathering processes and built up to such a point that they eventually caused the Earth to warm up; conversely, in the “hothouse” phases of our paleoclimate, weathering of rocks occurred more rapidly and reduced the greenhouse gases until the Earth cooled. Unfortunately, such negative feedbacks operate on timescales too large to be useful in our current predicament.
(3) In regards to the S-B Equation, I think one way to put it is that the S-B Equation still applies to gases but the emissivity that appears in that equation depends strongly on the frequency. You should also realize that the qualitative physical explanations that you are given for things such as the calculations of the radiative effect of greenhouse gases are just rough explanations for the much more complicated quantitative line-by-line radiative calculations that are actually being carried out. These are the same sort of calculations that are carried out in doing “remote sensing” of the earth and atmosphere by satellites, and the calculations are verified against other “ground truth”, measurements carried out by airplanes and weather balloons, etc.
I hope elucidation of these misunderstandings of yours helps you to understand why the world’s top scientists have generally reached conclusions radically different than you have in regards to climate change.
Joel Shore (18:51:10) :
There are also likely important negative biogeochemical feedbacks that operate on geological timescales. For example, when the earth was in its cold “snowball” or “slushball” states, the ice and snow prevented rocks from being exposed to weathering; hence greenhouse gases from volcanic eruptions…CO2 in particular…were not removed from the atmosphere by these weathering processes and built up to such a point that they eventually caused the Earth to warm up
—————
According to the Connolly-approved Wikipedia article (and hence AGW proponent approved) “the levels of CO2 necessary to melt a global ice cover have been calculated to be 130,000 ppm.” What the article and your version of events do not consider are several factors:
1) such levels of CO2 are not incompatible with the survival of life…although obviously not good for the survival of higher level animals…. but are also somewhat unlikely
2) with earth in a snowball state there would be little evaporation or atmospheric water evolved through sublimation and hence little precipitation (in the form of snow) to cover the volcanic ash, which would lower the albedo effect and increase the absorbed warm from insolation – and there would be lots of sunshine with the dry climate to be found on snowball earth. Therefore CO2 is not the only mechanism that could explain the emergence from this state, and could have played only a minimal role, just as it does in modern climate.
The longer this letter became, the more obviously defensive it seems — along the lines that they protest too much.
Just a few minor mistakes. Are they trying to tell us they were only a little bit pregnant.?
Apparently the band continues to play as the Titanic sinks.
response to Joel Shore:
Response to Joel Shore:
Thank you for your interest and the time to write your article in regard to my input about the IPCC. I welcome a good dialog.
You have indicated that the perturbation time is the relevant issue. But, if the perturbation time is so long as 200 to 1000 years, it would not be possible to have the variations in CO2 levels between the north and southern hemispheres, and the seasonal variation or the day and night variation that occurs. This has been measured repeatedly and the variations certainly do occur. As Segalstat and Essenhigh have pointed out, you could not make beer or soda pop if that were true. I am aware that one molecule of CO2 could remain statistically in the atmosphere for many years, but the aggregate turnover would not.
Your illustration of the tubs of water is interesting, but I think you are not including the reality. It is not CO 2 to CO2 we are talking about. It is the exchange with the CO2 sinks, which includes the ocean. There is a vast amount of water, and a vast amount of buffer there. The Calcium, magnesium and many other buffer systems come into play. It is not just adding CO2 to water, as you pointed out, but a very complex system not only in the ocean but in the various other sinks. All the sinks are not even known for sure, as much of the CO2 remains unaccounted for. The CO2 and ocean have a ratio of absorbing at 50-1. It does not seem to change much. And out-gasing occurs when the temperature rises, not the other way around. I am afraid my reading indicates that CO2 reaches equilibrium very rapidly with the ocean with only very small changes in ph as a result of the multitude of buffer systems and storage capacity of the ocean.
I am not a physics major, but I would still like to see the proof that the Stefan-Bolzmann equation applies to gases. Again as you know, CO2 does not store heat. Any energy absorbed by IR is immediately transferred to other molecules including oxygen and nitrogen, etc. Water stores heat, CO2 does not. Most likely the significant IR of about 15 micrometers is being almost maximally absorbed now with the present concentration, and cannot absorb much more, following the log scale. Any extra energy absorbed would likely be from the water as it absorbs at more frequencies. But since the vapor density of water in the atmosphere has apparently decreased, it is not likely to add more heat to the atmosphere.
I should have indicated that long term feedbacks are rare in nature. Otherwise we have the atom bomb. Short term positive feedbacks occur all the time that is sure. But, inevitably there is a negative balancing force that compensates for it. If a ball is rolled down a hill, a positive feedback, it always meets a valley and the hill on the other side. There is no unending hill. Observations of temperatures over time has not verified the positive feedback that the IPCC is positing. Certainly, if there were such a strong positive long term feedback, then the earth would have burned up by now after those billions of years. The positive feedback hat you mention like sand dunes and wavelets of snow, etc. are always limited. The dunes do not get enormously high and the snow sinks by its own weight and does not get beyond a certain limit before the wind blows it down. Sooner or later, usually sooner, a negative feedback comes into play.
According to some of the graphs by Sorcese, there has not been a correlation between CO2 levels and the temperature, and most ice studies show that warming occurs first, then the CO2 goes up. So I believe your comments in regard to the ice ages is in dispute. Also you have indicated that the Top scientists in climate have come to their conclusion which is different than mine. True, but there are other top scientists who do not agree with those other top scientists.
Hmm. . . Seems as though the ‘reservoirs’ will not be static, but dynamic systems themselves, particularly the floral biota, which can respond quite aggressively to increased CO2 in a short time. That’s not only on land, of course, but on the sea surface. I remember someone on this site describing how an acre of growing corn could suck up all the CO2 above it in a few minutes! Increase the CO2 and you’ll get a lot more plants.
Plants in turn interact with soil, atmosphere, oceans, and animals in dynamic ways, so the static model seems a bit simplistic, to say the least.
/Mr Lynn
Anthony
if any of your readers wish to build there own stevenson screen / cotton region shelter let me know and i will pass on the blueprints to them or give them to you .
have a great day
bobby hamill
The day comes closer!
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2010/03/day-comes-closer.html
I’m reminded of something my high school science teacher said. (a no-nonsense Scotsman) “most questions can be answered in two paragraphs. Don’t give me two pages worth of drivel, it just shows you don’t understand the subject.”
[snip – let’s not speak ill of the dead – Anthony]
I’m confused. I’m pretty sure I’ve heard it shouted more than once that the IPCC conclusions are a consensus of N thousand climate scientists (I think the last number I heard was 2500, but it seems to shift daily). Why didn’t they just get those guys to sign it, rather than sociologists and conservationists?
Why do I think of Wily Coyote?
Yeah — and why didn’t those 2500 peep up about the various glaring errors in the report, if they’re so unsullied? Image-consciousness? Fear of offending the top dogs in Organized Clime?
I.e., Mod Scientists.
Not really. The IPCC’s assessment could be “nil” or “beneficial.”
Or appeals FROM authority.
Maybe when the UK Parliamentary Inquiry gets a look at “the rest of the story” — the stuff in the UNreleased UEA e-mails. (“It’s worse than we thought”)
So Ehrlich is presenting this – a man with a record of promoting dozens of wholly false & often ridiculous alarms (eg that by 2000 everybody living near the sea will have had to move because of the smell of the death of all sea life) & do very well out of it.
On the other hand it will be interesting to see if a single one of the signatories isn’t paid by the state. The fact that warming alarmism is almost totally limited to people paid by government means it is not, by definition, a “consensu” of scientists.
I note that all three of the scientists pictured are biologists (as is Professor David Bellamy one of UK’s most famous sceptics).
Several years ago one of the three university lecturer biologists in our family explained to my wife that the surest way to get a grant to study any biological phenomina was to refer to the problems that might be caused by “Global Warming” as an addendum to the application and the surest way to get a paper considered for publication was to add the words “as affected by climate change” to the title.
Years ago when I worked in the computer industry those responsible for placing orders knew that they could never be blamed for buying IBM. It was known as the band wagon effect. Am I too cynical in thinking that some, or even many, of those scientists who sign the letter are climbing on a bandwagon?
***********
Joel Shore (18:51:10) :
You are confusing two different things here: The five-year timescale that you talked about is indeed the residence time for a carbon dioxide molecule in the atmosphere but it is not the relevant time for a decay of a perturbation in CO2 levels in the atmosphere. Here’s the picture: The atmosphere + biota + soils + mixed ocean layer are reservoirs for CO2 that have rapid exchange between them. Hence, when you add a certain amount of CO2 to the atmosphere, it quite rapidly partitions between these different reservoirs. However, this tightly coupled subsystem exchanges CO2 only slowly with the deep ocean and that is thus the rate-limiting step for the decay of additional CO2 introduced into this subsystem.
************************
We don’t care how much CO2 is in the biota+soil+mixed ocean layer – we only care how much is in the atmosphere. Only the CO2 in the atmosphere will cause some warming, not much, but some maybe.
Jim says:
Yes, but the way you figure out how much CO2 is going to remain in the atmosphere is to understand how the system that I explained work. I was explaining to “eugene r wynsen md” why the 5-year residence time he quoted is basically irrelevant for figuring how long a perturbation in atmospheric CO2 levels will remain.
eugene r wynsen md says:
I have seen no evidence whatsoever that any of this is inconsistent with the picture that I described.
But, why does the “turnover” matter? Whether it is the particular molecule that was produced by fossil fuel burning or exchanged for another one, it is the total level of CO2 in the atmosphere that matters.
Yes, it does reach equilibrium quickly with the upper mixed layer of the ocean, which is why the atmosphere + ocean mixed layer + biota + soils can be described as a rapidly equilibrating subsystem that exchanges CO2 only slowly with the deep oceans.
I haven’t a clue what this means. Something following a log scale doesn’t mean it can’t absorb much more. What it means is that the natural way to express the radiative forcing is in terms of how much occurs for a given fractional change in CO2 concentration, rather than a given absolute change. This is why scientists talk in terms of the amount of radiative forcing produced by a doubling of CO2 rather than, say, an increase in CO2 by 100ppm. And, everyone from the IPCC to Roy Spencer and Richard Lindzen agree that the radiative forcing for doubling CO2 is in the range of something like 3.6-4.2 W/m^2.
“Apparently” according to who? Both the satellite data and the radiosondes show that upper tropospheric water vapor increases with increasing temperatures when one looks at the normal fluctuations in temperature that occur (e.g., due to ENSO). Over the longer term, the satellite data also shows an upward trend with the general warming; unfortunately, the radiosonde dataset is not considered reliable for such long term trends. (The satellite data also has its issues for long term trends…but it is more reliable, but more importantly, both agree on the general behavior of temperature and water vapor over the shorter term.)
Well, yes, it is true that if a system is linearly unstable then it will run off to some other part of phase space where it is no longer linearly unstable. (That is presumably what happened on Venus a long time ago.) However, the feedbacks proposed to govern the climate system in its current state are not strong enough to cause a linear instability. They are only strong enough to magnify the temperature change relative to that which would occur if the change in radiative forcing due to increased greenhouse gases did not result in other things happening (like ice melting, additional water evaporating into the atmosphere, …)
In fact, the trend has been that the more detail we seem to learn about past climatic events, the more closely we see the correlation between temperature and CO2 levels. Unfortunately, the really good (ice core) data go back only about 750,000 years. Previous to that, estimates of CO2 and temperatures are less certain and the resolution is coarser, but like I have said, the trend is that as the data has improved, the match between CO2 and temperatures has also improved.
You are correct that in the past, without humans around to rapidly release large stores of carbon back into the atmosphere, the influx of carbon has tended to occur as a feedback to other climate changes rather than a forcing. Thus, the CO2 has been responsible for the amplification (and likely also the synchronization of the climate changes between the Southern and Northern hemispheres) of the changes that have occurred due to other forcings such as the Milankovitch oscillations in the earth’s orbital parameters.
…Which is why we have traditionally relied on scientists through organizations like the IPCC, the National Academy of Sciences, and other organizations to conduct assessments of science for the public and public officials. In this case, such assessments have been basically unanimous. However, when those assessments contradict what some people are predisposed to believe, those people try to circumvent the process and one way they do this is by trotting out scientists who disagree with the assessment, which of course one can always find about anything. That is what you see being played out here, just as it has been played out with other issues (such as the link between smoking and cancer)….In fact, some of the actors are even the same!
I appreciate you continued feedback.
Response to Joel Shore: 3-17-10
It takes about 2 years for the difference in CO2 in the southern hemisphere to equilibrate with the northern Hemisphere, yet you are saying it takes a 1000 years to equilibrate the CO2 perturbations added to the atmosphere by man. Recall that only about 4% of the CO2 generated is anthropogenic, but that does not really account for the “lost CO2” that still goes unaccounted. The total amount of CO 2 in the air is determined by multiple factors, and the amount that can be stored in the oceans in the form of Calcium shells, etc, is enormous. The amount remaining in the air will be determined by the partial pressures, the temperature, and the rate of going into sinks, including the ocean. So that CO2 generated from whatever source may “disappear” in these sinks and be unavailable to the atmosphere. Since the CO2 from man accounts for only 4% of the total CO2 emitted, it is a small amount. It is overshadowed by the water vapor that accounts for 95% of the heat absorbed from IR. Statistically this amount of CO2 is lost in the uncertainty of the “lost CO2”. In the past the CO2 has usually gone in tandem with the temperature, but it is generally accepted that the temp goes up first followed by the rise in CO2. One has to wonder what made the CO2 and temperature go up and down over the millennia, and there was no anthropogenic source of CO2. It was reported that the water content of the atmosphere overall over the past 30 years or so has decreased, rather than increased as would be predicted by the theory that the water vapor will increase with the temperature.
You have indicated that the doubling of CO2 will result in about 4 watts in energy. That is true on a theoretical basis, but the actually sensitivity to a rise in CO2 is not the same. There come into play the many other forcings, including clouds, aerosols, cosmic rays, changing albedo etc., although many are small and many are unknown, that affect the ultimate result. Current figures are in the range of 0.50 watts, and maybe less, or even negative at times. The clouds seem to be very important, and difficult to pin down and prove. As to the IR being absorbed by CO2, there is only a finite amount of radiation in the 15 micrometer range and most of it is already being absorbed. Adding more CO2 will not result in much more rise in temperature. IR has limited energy, and cannot push the system to ever increasing temps. Four molecules of CO2 will need to heat 10,000 other molecules as well. However, a good bit of the heating comes from conduction from the earth which is heated by the short rays. And most of the heating comes from water vapor. The greenhouse effect does not apply to the atmosphere, as it is a different mechanism
In observing the 4.5 billion year that this planet has existed, there have been many changes in the temperature and CO2 etc. But, also it is apparent that there is an inherent stability in the system. The negative balancing forces have worked well, even if we don’t know what they all are. It is very unscientific in my judgment to say that since CO2 has gone up, therefore that IS the reason for the temperature rise. We are exiting from a Little Ice age, and in reality the temperature has been heating up since the glaciers were a mile high over Cleveland and Chicago.
I am disappointed to learn that the PSA has proclaimed its point of view, but did not actually poll all its members, and it is clear that at least 160 of them do not agreed with that view. It only takes one proof that a theory is wrong to destroy it no matter how many supporting findings there are. To cite the current cliché, one does not determine science by vote. It is frequently implied that these dissenters are somehow deficient in knowledge and the majority is obviously superior. I don’t agree with that point of view. As you know the IPCC was originated to prove that the temperature rise was due to anthropogenic causes, not to find out the cause or causes. But in fairness the first report indicated there was no proof for that. With a stroke of the pen, Ben Santer changed it. Is that what science is all about?
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Joel Shore (17:17:51) :
Any extra energy absorbed would likely be from the water as it absorbs at more frequencies. But since the vapor density of water in the atmosphere has apparently decreased, it is not likely to add more heat to the atmosphere.
“Apparently” according to who? Both the satellite data and the radiosondes show that upper tropospheric water vapor increases with increasing temperatures when one looks at the normal fluctuations in temperature that occur (e.g., due to ENSO). Over the longer term, the satellite data also shows an upward trend with the general warming; unfortunately, the radiosonde dataset is not considered reliable for such long term trends. (The satellite data also has its issues for long term trends…but it is more reliable, but more importantly, both agree on the general behavior of temperature and water vapor over the shorter term.)
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The missing piece here is the knock-on effect of more water vapor. Does this lead to more clouds that then reflect more incoming radiation?