Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
Figure 1. The Experimental Setup
I keep reading statements in various places about how it is indisputable “simple physics” that if we increase the amount of atmospheric CO2, it will inevitably warm the planet. Here’s a typical example:
In the hyperbolic language that has infested the debate, researchers have been accused of everything from ditching the scientific method to participating in a vast conspiracy. But the basic concepts of the greenhouse effect is a matter of simple physics and chemistry, and have been part of the scientific dialog for roughly a century.
Here’s another:
The important thing is that we know how greenhouse gases affect climate. It has even been predicted hundred years ago by Arrhenius. It is simple physics.
Unfortunately, while the physics is simple, the climate is far from simple. It is one of the more complex systems that we have ever studied. The climate is a tera-watt scale planetary sized heat engine. It is driven by both terrestrial and extra-terrestrial forcings, a number of which are unknown, and many of which are poorly understood and/or difficult to measure. It is inherently chaotic and turbulent, two conditions for which we have few mathematical tools.
The climate is composed of six major subsystems — atmosphere, ocean, cryosphere, lithosphere, biosphere, and electrosphere. All of these subsystems are imperfectly understood. Each of these subsystems has its own known and unknown internal and external forcings, feedbacks, resonances, and cyclical variations. In addition, each subsystem affects all of the other subsystems through a variety of known and unknown forcings and feedbacks.
Then there is the problem of scale. Climate has crucially important processes at physical scales from the molecular to the planetary and at temporal scales from milliseconds to millennia.
As a result of this almost unimaginable complexity, simple physics is simply inadequate to predict the effect of a change in one of the hundreds and hundreds of things that affect the climate. I will give two examples of why “simple physics” doesn’t work with the climate — a river, and a block of steel. I’ll start with a thought experiment with the block of steel.
Suppose that I want to find out about how temperature affects solids. I take a 75 kg block of steel, and I put the bottom end of it in a bucket of hot water. I duct tape a thermometer to the top end in the best experimental fashion, and I start recording how the temperature changes with time. At first, nothing happens. So I wait. And soon, the temperature of the other end of the block of steel starts rising. Hey, simple physics, right?
To verify my results, I try the experiment with a block of copper. I get the same result, the end of the block that’s not in the hot water soon begins to warm up. I try it with a block of glass, same thing. My tentative conclusion is that simple physics says that if you heat one end of a solid, the other end will eventually heat up as well.
So I look around for a final test. Not seeing anything obvious, I have a flash of insight. I weigh about 75 kg. So I sit with my feet in the bucket of hot water, put the thermometer in my mouth, and wait for my head to heat up. This experimental setup is shown in Figure 1 above.
After all, simple physics is my guideline, I know what’s going to happen, I just have to wait.
And wait … and wait …
As our thought experiment shows, simple physics may simply not work when applied to a complex system. The problem is that there are feedback mechanisms that negate the effect of the hot water on my cold toes. My body has a preferential temperature which is not set by the external forcings.
For a more nuanced view of what is happening, let’s consider the second example, a river. Again, a thought experiment.
I take a sheet of plywood, and I cover it with some earth. I tilt it up so it slopes from one edge to the other. For our thought experiment, we’ll imagine that this is a hill that goes down to the ocean.
I place a steel ball at the top edge of the earth-covered plywood, and I watch what happens. It rolls, as simple physics predicts, straight down to the lower edge. I try it with a wooden ball, and get the same result. I figure maybe it’s because of the shape of the object.
So I make a small wooden sled, and put it on the plywood. Again, it slides straight down to the ocean. I try it with a miniature steel shed, same result. It goes directly downhill to the ocean as well. Simple physics, understood by Isaac Newton.
As a final test, I take a hose and I start running some water down from the top edge of my hill to make a model river. To my surprise, although the model river starts straight down the hill, it soon starts to wander. Before long, it has formed a meandering stream, which changes its course with time. Sections of the river form long loops, the channel changes, loops are cut off, new channels form, and after while we get something like this:
Figure 2. Meanders, oxbow bends, and oxbow lakes in a river system. Note the old channels where the river used to run.
The most amazing part is that the process never stops. No matter how long we run the river experiment, the channel continues to change. What’s going on here?
Well, the first thing that we can conclude is that, just as in our experiment with the steel block, simple physics simply doesn’t work in this situation. Simple physics says that things roll straight downhill, and clearly, that ain’t happening here … it is obvious we need better tools to analyze the flow of the river.
Are there mathematical tools that we can use to understand this system? Yes, but they are not simple. The breakthrough came in the 1990’s, with the discovery by Adrian Bejan of the Constructal Law. The Constructal Law applies to all flow systems which are far from equilibrium, like a river or the climate.
It turns out that these types of flow systems are not passive systems which can take up any configuration. Instead, they actively strive to maximize some aspect of the system. For the river, as for the climate, the system strives to maximize the sum of the energy moved and the energy lost through turbulence. See the discussion of these principles here, here, here, and here. There is also a website devoted to various applications of the Constructal Law here.
There are several conclusions that we can make from the application of the Constructal Law to flow systems:
1. Any flow system far from equilibrium is not free to take up any form as the climate models assume. Instead, it has a preferential state which it works actively to approach.
2. This preferential state, however, is never achieved. Instead, the system constantly overshoots and undershoots that state, and does not settle down to one final form. The system never stops modifying its internal aspects to move towards the preferential state.
3. The results of changes in such a flow system are often counterintuitive. For example, suppose we want to shorten the river. Simple physics says it should be easy. So we cut through an oxbow bend, and it makes the river shorter … but only for a little while. Soon the river readjusts, and some other part of the river becomes longer. The length of the river is actively maintained by the system. Contrary to our simplistic assumptions, the length of the river is not changed by our actions.
So that’s the problem with “simple physics” and the climate. For example, simple physics predicts a simple linear relationship between the climate forcings and the temperature. People seriously believe that a change of X in the forcings will lead inevitably to a chance of A * X in the temperature. This is called the “climate sensitivity”, and is a fundamental assumption in the climate models. The IPCC says that if CO2 doubles, we will get a rise of around 3C in the global temperature. However, there is absolutely no evidence to support that claim, only computer models. But the models assume this relationship, so they cannot be used to establish the relationship.
However, as rivers clearly show, there is no such simple relationship in a flow system far from equilibrium. We can’t cut through an oxbow to shorten the river, it just lengthens elsewhere to maintain the same total length. Instead of being affected by a change in the forcings, the system sets its own preferential operating conditions (e.g. length, temperature, etc.) based on the natural constraints and flow possibilities and other parameters of the system.
Final conclusion? Because climate is a flow system far from equilibrium, it is ruled by the Constructal Law. As a result, there is no physics-based reason to assume that increasing CO2 will make a large difference to the global temperature, and the Constructal Law gives us reason to think that it may make no difference at all. In any case, regardless of Arrhenius, the “simple physics” relationship between CO2 and global temperature is something that we cannot simply assume to be true.
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Paul Hildebrandt (03:06:23) :
Actually, the earth is flowing, and has been since Day 1. It’s called Plate Tectonics. Although not flowing at incredible speeds, the continents and oceanic basins are moving on a conveyor belt of sorts.
For simple entertainment I keep this page open:
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/
while I wait for other pages to load. Day after day I watch the earth unzip itself. They even have animations week by week. Over time, one can get a sense of the real dynamism of the crust. And of course, you can haul off to the tsunami warning center to see if the oceans are going to respond.
History Channel “How the Earth was Made” is just spectacular, no mention of AGW at all and they don’t even call it the “Planet”, which is a key word I’ve grown suspicious of.
Investors Business Daily is calling for Five Decades of Cooling! http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=516286
If the markets respond to reality this thing is over.
RE: THE FIVE STAGES OF DEATH
The five stages of death are denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. After Copenhagen where we found change is not about our climate but what is in our pockets, the latest rhetoric suggests we have entered the bargaining phase. Depression and acceptance will eventually follow.
It is very unfortunate that Michael Crichton is now deceased.
Rest in Peace.
I’m sure that if he had lived now, Climategate would have been of interest to him.
He does however still have a web-site on climate, and I found it most amusing reading his speech on Yellowstone National Park.
Since this is somewhat outdated, he comments on IPCC report from 2001. Im sure they havent changed their mind since then?
At the lower part of the page;
“long term prediction of future climate states is not possible”..
Must be very sad for the AGW’ers that even IPCC dont speak “newspeak” anymore….
Here;
http://www.michaelcrichton.net/speech-ourenvironmentalfuture.html
To scienceofdoom:
The atmosphere is not an explosive mixture and CO2 is not a poison like cyanide!
Recall that CO2 is non combustible. Far from being a bomb or a pollutant, it is first and foremost an essential component to the very complex fabric of life on the planet.
What a silly way to attempt to clarify your argument. Nothing more than another oversimplification by “Warmanistas” who mix scientific sounding metaphors to strike fear in the minds of children.
Try to remember that adults populate this blog. No one here is ignorant of nor doubts the radiative properties CO2. However, we do say that the climate is far too complex and the knowledge of its behavior too poorly understood to say with certainty that 0.04% CO2 in the atmosphere will destroy the earth as you assert.
Willis, in the spirit of further testing your hypothesis, I have some more comments for you.
In thinking about it some more overnight, there is more to think about for this analog because there are “forcings” which will change the equilibrium of the system – for example, if the slope of the system were changed via tectonics or change in base level (such as sea level change) or a change in bedload carried by the stream, the stream will find a new equilibrium state. Of course, other forcing – such as a man-made intervention short cut of a meander loop will not.
So, with that in mind, is CO2 like the short cut or is it like a change in base level? An in either case, what evidence can you present to support that? An interesting implication is also that even if CO2 acts like a base level change, it simply means a new equilibrium will be established & that no “tipping points” exist – ie – we will not have any runaway greenhouse warming. I would say the geological record supports this given much higher CO2 concentrations in the geologic past
Two typos:
“a chance of A”
“miniature steel shed”
Tom said:
Perhaps you can explain how high interest rates which induce people to save which makes more capital available is a “negative”? Perhaps you can explain how low interest rates which induce people to spend and makes less capital available is a “positive”?
In actuality, both of these scenarios are neither positive or negative, as long as it is a free society that determines the interest rate.
Meandering rivers is a great analogy. We should challenge James Hansen to write a computer model to predict river meandering! With fewer variables, it HAS to be simpler than predicting climate so, if he’s successful at predicting that, then and only then will I begin to take any notice of his climate models that cannot even predict the price of carbon credits let alone the climate. It seems that CO2 is the only thing that alarmist climate models are based upon. Their algorithm might as well boil down to Td = k(C-350) where Td is the change in global temperature, C is concentration of CO2, 350 is an arbitrary concentration value that these arrogant fools think they have the authority to declare as being the ‘correct amount’ of CO2 and k is as large as they think they can get away with. Simple physics, meet simple arithmetic.
jorgekafkazar (20:31:08) :
“gtrip (20:00:23) : “Where do the proles fit in?”
north prole at the top, south prole at the bottom.”
Very nice!
LOL!
Mark
Government policy of supporting research is wrongheaded.
When an institution is formed out of the need to solve a problem,
if the problem is solved there no longer is a need for the institution.
This is observable in the Rev. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton’s “fight”
against racism. Attempts to provide “social justice” are in reality
nothing more than fanning racial flames.
Same with climate science institutions funded by government money. Solve the problem by administering the “fixes” and no more need for climate institutions.
The main problem I have with Arrhenius result is, what was the spectrum used for the calculations. Without the knowledge of quantum mechanics it is impossible to know that that absorption forms, what is, a lifetime broadened point spectrum (vibrational-rotational point spectrum to be specific) and if (and this is a big if, I know) the lifetime of the rotational modes is long enough then, beacuse those modes are rather dense, the results would be dominated by the spectral resolution of the apparatus used to measure the CO2 IR spectrum.
The reason for this is that if the spectrum form separated modes (long lifetime), the atmosphere absorbs photons with energies at and very close to those modes. For simplicity, we can consider this energy to be completely absorbed by the atmosphere (IRL, this energy is emitted at roughly 70-80 K lower tempereture in the upper atmosphere). Photons with energies between the modes are simply radiated through the atmosphere.
If, however, one is ignorant of the physics and measures the spectrum with insufficient resolution then one will come to the conclusion that all photons throughout the entire vibrational mode are absorbed and emitted at a lower temperature in the upper atmosphere. This way, one will arrive at an entirely different result.
Dave vs Hal (23:57:26) :
A complex system with negative feedbacks maintaining an equilibrium. Sounds suspiciously like the G… word (the earth behaving like a simple organism). Life co-evolved with this planet and it wouldn’t surprise me if some of the feedbacks are biological. Lovelock may one day be pardoned by the church of scepticism.
First, your “church of scepticism” is a rather hilarious example of projection. Lovelock is correct that the earth’s climate is self-regulating to a large extent, the oceans probably being the largest of the self-regulating mechanisms. Where he went wrong with his “Gaia” theory was that he seemed to think the climate was somehow in a delicate balance, which was easily perturbed by man. Under Gaia theory, man is viewed as an outside, and negative force throwing the earth’s fragile climate system out of whack. While there is no doubt man can and does affect the environment in negative ways, pollution being the best example, and he can also affect micro climates with his cities and UHI effect, as well as through deforestation, causing drying among other things, his overall effect on climate, particularly through his use of “fossil fuels” is actually relatively small. Whatever slight amount of warming effect we have is a good thing, since it is cooling that is destructive to life. The Warmist movement, with its fixation on a completely beneficial gas, C02, has actually taken man’s eyes off the prize, environmentally speaking.
Thanks Willis – I’m glad I read that, it was most illuminating (especially as I thought you were sitting with your feet in a bucket smoking a cigarette). Also all the comments and further expansion of arguments. I am not a scientist (more of an artist, p*** or otherwise) and find a lot of this hard to follow but I persevere as I think it is important to try to understand. Supposedly I am intelligent but it is worrying that AGWs can sway the general populace so easily and now that we have got into this mess, given the extent that commerce is now involved in the big business alongside it, I wonder how we can ever get out of this shambles without another financial meltdown. Nothing is simple, is it?
Some of it IS simple physics. If you take the radiation spectrum of the planet and overlay it with the absorption spectrum of CO2 you will find that the CO2 only absorbs a very small amount of the radiation no matter what the concentration. Perhaps we have seen the maximum since the CO2 concentration keeps on going up but the planet temperature has not. The computer models that predict “tipping points” require “forcing” mechanisms which have not been demonstrated. For example warming may increase the water vapor content of the atmosphere which would increase the greenhouse warning. However, if the water vapor produces clouds that will reduce the amount of solar radiation getting to the ground giving cooling. As was said by someone “sometimes you know what you don’t know and sometimes you don’t know what you don’t know.”
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sustainableloudoun (05:38:25) :
This is one of the goofiest posts I’ve ever read on this topic.
First, the ‘author’ demonstrates how all solids are not alike in conducting heat (everyone who has had basic physics understands this). Then the ‘author’ goes on to show how humans (who are over 90% water and have active temperature adjustment mechanisms) don’t seem to follow the same principle. Doh!
Then he tries to confuse us about gravity and meandering streams. Erosion and deposition are indeed simple processes, but we are not supposed to think about them lest the ‘author’ fails to get his point across.
Based on these poorest of premises, the ‘author’ attempts a distant but failed leap at a conclusion that there is absolutely no way that the climate can be modeled in any shape or form.
**********************
You seem to be extremely upset over a few simple but illuminating analogies.
Also, AFAIK, no one has produced a climate model that works, so you would be hard pressed to prove the climate can be meaningfully modeled. What evidence do you have that it can be modeled? Especially given the current level of computer technology, it might be 50 more years before a successful model could be constructed – maybe longer – if ever.
Pippa Biggs, the European Glaciers have been retreating overall since the last Ice Age and no one denies that the Human Race has a large impact on wild life.
But do you also believe that Polar Bears ar more endangered now (pop. 25,0000 than in 1950 (pop 5,000) as shown on UK TV.
So based on the Non Science of Man Made Global Warming, just what is it you are going to rush out and do instead of sitting still waiting for scientists to come up with a definitve answer.
Why not copy all those SO CONCERNED MMDW proponents, fly in private jets, drive bigger limousines, take a dozen “advisors” with you when you go to meetings?
Care about the environment? How about buying a carbon certificate and retire it?
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/25/science/earth/25gift.html?_r=1&hpw
found on
http://planetgore.nationalreview.com/
The crazy abound while the sane are ostracized. I guess this is only temporary, though.
Dr. Terry Mudder (05:43:48) Thanks Doc. Just your advice missing. Could it be something like this?: “Just let it go, cry. cry a lot, it will release all the stress caused by that damned “climate gate” and then by copenhagen…
I respectfully beg to differ: also the physics is not “simple”. For instance, try to find a basic (not “simple”) model of the atmosphere which incorporates both radiation transport and heat transport by convection in a self-consistent manner. It ain’t there, and that is the “simple” truth.
If it were just “basic physics,” enormous computer models would not be required to make “credible” predictions – an envelope and pencil would suffice.
Great post!
“Sheridan (06:34:58) :
The main problem I have with Arrhenius result is…”
Sheridan, there’s an institute in Davos that allegedly managed to measure the IR radiation send back by CO2 . The researcher is Claus Fröhlich .
Found an article (in German) here:
http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-52485438.html
By now i haven’t found the results on the web but if you search for Fröhlich on WUWT you get some hits. Mostly, a tiny amount of CO2 already suffices for near saturation of the absorption bands of CO2, causing the known 33 degree C greenhouse effect. How much of a difference further increases of CO2 make is AFAIK still subject of controvery.
Willis says:
“We can’t cut through an oxbow to shorten the river, it just lengthens elsewhere to maintain the same total length. Instead of being affected by a change in the forcings, the system sets its own preferential operating conditions (e.g. length, temperature, etc.) based on the natural constraints and flow possibilities and other parameters of the system.”
Oh, yeah? You haven’t studied the US Corps of Engineers!
Seriously, a great little essay, Willis!
To verify my results, I try the experiment with a block of copper. I get the same result, the end of the block that’s not in the hot water soon begins to warm up. I try it with a block of glass, same thing. My tentative conclusion is that simple physics says that if you heat one end of a solid, the other end will eventually heat up as well.
So I look around for a final test. Not seeing anything obvious, I have a flash of insight. I weigh about 75 kg. So I sit with my feet in the bucket of hot water, put the thermometer in my mouth, and wait for my head to heat up. This experimental setup is shown in Figure 1 above.
Cute, but poor a poor test of your hypothesis since your body is not a solid.