Copenhagen – not happening

Little mermaid - Copenhagen - 08/07 by julienpons.

A summary from Dr. Benny Peiser’s daily newsletter:

Delay is preferable to error.

–Thomas Jefferson

A world treaty on climate change will be delayed by up to a year and is likely to be watered down because countries with the highest greenhouse gas emissions are refusing to commit to legally binding reductions. The admission that no treaty will be signed at Copenhagen marks the failure of the process agreed at a UN meeting in Bali in December 2007, when industrialised countries agreed to deliver a binding climate-change agreement within two years.

–Ben Webster, The Times, 6 November 2009

Nitin Desai, a member of Manmohan Singh’s council on climate change and a former top UN official, said a hard-nosed concession-based negotiation to reach a global consensus on how to combat global warming would likely founder.

–James Lamont, Financial Times, 6 November 2009

The deadline for 192 countries to complete a new global-warming accord may slip by as much as one year, as negotiators hold back on pledges to slash emissions or pay financial aid to poor nations.

–Alex Morales, Bloomberg, 6 November 2009

We must all be willing to disagree about climate change; and respect each other for it.

–Mike Hulme, 5 November 2009

A British judge has decided that belief in human influence on climate has the status of religious conviction. This is being celebrated as a success by some activists. As a scientist who works on climate change, I find it deeply alarming. Is Jeremy Clarkson similarly entitled to protection if he declares himself a conscientious objector and wants to keep his 4×4?

–Myles Allen, The Guardian, 5 November 2009

The Times newspaper says it won’t be repeating an advertisement that contained a false and misleading piece of environmental alarmism. The advert, part of a series boasting its eco-credentials, claimed that the world’s oceans would be free of fish by 2048. Boris Pope had made the claim in a 2006 paper in Science, which despite its reputation as a prestigious peer-reviewed journal, has a weakness for publishing shoddy junk science on environmental subjects. He’s since recanted.

–Andrew Orlowski, The Register, 6 November 2009

Politicians use drama to build support and gain a reaction from the public. Look at the “Weapons of Mass Destruction” campaign over the Iraq war. And certain climate change activists have distorted facts about global warming, appealing to sentiment rather than logic, to scare citizens into believing their theories of impending apocalypse. Such tactics have undermined the scientific credibility of their argument but may still carry the day, enforcing a terrifying upheaval to our way of life. Their persuasive narrative – even if it is wrong – shows starkly the power of emotion.

–Luke Johnson, Financial Times, 3 November 2009


Ben Webster, The Times, 6 November 2009


James Lamont in Delhi, Financial Times, 6 November 2009


Alex Morales, Bloomberg, 6 November 2009


Samuel Thernstrom, The American, 5 November 2009

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Mark Wagner
November 6, 2009 1:59 pm

may it die quickly, rather than slowly and painfully.

November 6, 2009 2:00 pm

Gives the participants another chance to have more big parties next year.

November 6, 2009 2:05 pm

Somewhat OT, a very large iceberg near Macquarie Island. This is very far north for an Antarctic iceberg.
You would think this would be seen as a sign of Southern Hemisphere ocean cooling, but no, icebergs travelling far from Antarctica is a sign of global warming according to the people quoted in the article below.

November 6, 2009 2:12 pm


November 6, 2009 2:26 pm

FYI – Paul Hudson at the BBC has just written an update to his ‘Whatever happened to global warming’ piece from a week or so ago.
I’m sure he would value support. His last piece caused quite a stir I remember.

November 6, 2009 2:27 pm

Philip_B: Hmmm, you seem ti have conveniently neglected this portion of the article,
“He said it was likely to be part of a massive berg that broke off the Ross Ice Shelf eight or nine years ago. And it was possible such bergs could become more frequently sighted in coming years…. It would become more common if climate change continues the way it’s been going,” he said….We could anticipate the ice shelves to break up over a long period of time.”
Not saying I necessarily agree with everything Dr. Young said, but at least try and not be so blatantly biased and misleading.

November 6, 2009 2:28 pm

China and India will not change their minds in the next 6 months, or 12, or 24 etc. It’s a slow death with all hands on the pump. Some of them are tweaking the rhetoric, some of them are boosting it. Do we finesse it over the line or go for full blown fear? Neither seems to be working lately. Looking forward to the APS adjusting their position. That might really hurt. Perth, Western Australia

November 6, 2009 2:33 pm

Hey! That’s the Little Mermaid statue in Vancouver, BC!!!
REPLY: Maybe they have a duplicate there, but this one says Copenhagen, see:

November 6, 2009 2:34 pm

they are getting desperate…
Keep up the pressure, spread the truth!
Once more to the breach dear friends!!

November 6, 2009 2:36 pm

It was supposed to be an EMERGENCY… if they can wait a year, they can wait another 100 years.

November 6, 2009 2:48 pm

I believe that reality is FINALLY starting to set in.

November 6, 2009 2:52 pm

IPCC needs more time to generate new data to put the hoax back into contention.
At what point do real scientists speak up … In the end, integrity is not a renewable resource.

November 6, 2009 2:59 pm

RockyMtn (14:27:30) :
Antarctic iceshelves breakup all the time. Hundreds of sq kilometers every year. To say that a particular iceberg came from a particular breakup is pure speculation, and IMO an attempt to link what on the face of it, is evidence for cooling to claimed evidence for warming.
“It’s very much a tabular iceberg with vertical sides – it’s not long out of the Antarctic.
A more accurate statement would have been –
“It’s very much a tabular iceberg with vertical sides – It’s been subject to very little melting.
In summary, a large iceberg is observed very far north with very little melting. And this is somehow evidence for global warming. As I said, unbelievable.
I’d say the biased and misleading statements are rather more in the article than in my observations on it.

Leon Brozyna
November 6, 2009 3:05 pm

Another year with A. Gore jetting around the globe, pitching his spiel. It’s sad watching a grown man making such an embarrassing spectacle of himself. Even more as an increasing number of people learn what a complex process the climate is.

November 6, 2009 3:08 pm

Philip_B (14:05:48) :
“This is the first I can recall being sighted from Macquarie Island for many, many years,” Dr Young said.”
so, if many, many years ago the same happened. there is no way to link this to climate change. what would be difficult anyways after a 40 year downtrend in antarctic temperatures and near record sea ice levels.
weather-is-not-climate-expert rockymtn should really write another lament to that news outlet.

Henry chance
November 6, 2009 3:10 pm

TIME is a deal killer. And it should be. If there are hurdles in a deal, they show up if a deal isn’t rushed. If a deal is a bad deal, rushing it increases the odds of a deal being made. Climate Progress Joe romm may just blow another gasket, but a deal that relegates sovereignty to who knows what should be evaluated with caution,.

November 6, 2009 3:12 pm

If all the primary movers and shakers know nothing will be agreed at Copenhagen …. has anyone scaled back the plans for the 20,000 or so people expected to attend?
Sounds like about 20 or less would do. A pity for the Danes who may be looking forward to the cash spent but, hey, they are a rich nation and can afford it. Heck, here in the UK we are having to fund the Olympics and it would not surprise me at all if we end up paying to build it and they don’t come.

November 6, 2009 3:17 pm

Manfred, Philip RockyMyn “Not saying I necessarily agree with everything Dr. Young said”.
Now at least two of you somehow neglected to read that in your zeal. Anyhow, Philip you were caught cherry-picking, whatever. I’m not going to argue with you about a clearly poorly written and researched article. Besides, this whole discussion is OT.
PS: Manfred, I was just relaying what the professionals/experts agree on, so please enough with the juvenile quips like “weather-is-not-climate-expert”.

November 6, 2009 3:20 pm

RockyMtn (14:27:30) :
Icebergs scours are found in this geographic region dating back to the iceage when sl were 100 meters lower eg
‘Grooves measuring about 2?2.5 km long, 200 m across and 10 m deep,
can be seen in the seabed on the eastern Chatham Rise, at a water
depth of about 450?470 m’, says NIWA marine geologist Scott Nodder,
who led the Chatham/Challenger Biodiversity Project onboard NIWA’s
deepwater research vessel Tangaroa in August.
‘They were probably caused by an iceberg that carved off the Antarctic
icesheet during the last Ice Age 18 000 to 20 000 years ago’, says Dr
Nodder. ‘The sea level was 100 m lower then, so the iceberg would have
sat in about 350?400 m of water. The scours look very similar to ones
we recorded in the Ross Sea in 2004’, he says.
On the other hand shearing a sheep on an iceberg off the coast of NZ could be perceived as unusual.

November 6, 2009 3:26 pm

Barely a ripple:
British climate change campaigners ride The Wave
The Wave claims to be ‘UK’s biggest ever demonstration for urgent action on climate change’. Will you take part – and do marches work?
The Guardian typically gets a few hundred comments for such articles, but this one has got only 22 so far. The pick is by clintheine:
The Wave you say? How appropriate of a name for these environmental religious zealots.
The Wave was originally the name of a book/movie where students were blindly following a hardline and very misguided ideology – through peer pressure and brainwashing. Google it. It was a great story on how people get caught up in badly thought out groupthink.
Top marks for the name guys!

November 6, 2009 3:27 pm

Nice headline pic. Makes a change from polar bears on ice floes.
Anyone worked out the carbon footprint of 20,000 climate change delegates yet?

George E. Smith
November 6, 2009 3:29 pm

“”” Mark Wagner (13:59:41) :
may it die quickly, rather than slowly and painfully. “””
Actually the more pain the better; it’s about time that these zealous fools were made to suffer for all the misery they have already spread through this insanity.
And if you Europeans want the US tp pay any money for your silliness; why don’t you wait, untill your carbon footprint is in the net carbon sink quadrant like the USA is; and incidently WE are the ONLY ones on earth (of any size) who can say that.
We have always maintained our carbon offsets in the plus column through our intense forest farming, and other agriculture.
So when you Europeans become carbon negative; why don’t you give us a shout.
In any case the Indians, and Chinese already know you are crazy; so they aren’t going to pay any attention to your foolishness.

November 6, 2009 3:31 pm

Before painting China and India as bad guys, it’s important to note that China has 17 large nuclear power reactors under construction and India has 6. Each of these will offset approximately 20,000 tons per day CO2 when they go on-line. This is compared to coal burning plants, which are generally the world’s default method of generating electricity. Whether you think CO2 is bad, or just believe we should leave the fossils in the ground for our children, the answer is the same. China and India are doing something. The U.S. is building either zero or one, depending on how you count.
Before the criticism starts; yes, I have personally bought and installed 250 Watts of PV, and plan to buy about 20 kW more.

November 6, 2009 3:33 pm

They won’t go away, check this out at Gore makes climate fight ‘a moral duty’

November 6, 2009 3:37 pm

Ray (14:33:38) : “Hey! That’s the Little Mermaid statue in Vancouver, BC!!!
REPLY: Maybe they have a duplicate there, but this one says Copenhagen, see: -A”
Mermaids are a myth, guys. How appropriate for a myth to be the symbol of Copenhagen, erstwhile capital of the anthropogenic global warming myth.

John F. Hultquist
November 6, 2009 3:38 pm

Copenhagen not happening = good
maybe there is a link:
Massive ice slab = global cooling
Must be one of these:
The image shows many lesser and several greater pieces of the Ross Ice Shelf. Dated January 2003 “…eight or nine years ago…”
What is a sheet of brittle ice supposed to do when the water it is floating on lifts and falls?

November 6, 2009 3:41 pm

“I believe that reality is FINALLY starting to set in.”
One way or the other, reality will prevail in the acrimonious court of ‘who pays’.
A large part of me says the technical work and perseverance of Steve Mac has had a bearing on this. Who knows whether ‘institutionalised science’ would have done the same by this time. Let’s not specualate – just appreciate the warm feeling that the scientific method can prevail over political soundbites, even if it takes a little time.
The work that ‘A’ has done in raising and publicising issues should be appreciated in equal measure.

Robert Wood
November 6, 2009 3:42 pm

What was the Tipping Point? Boxer’s bungle in the Senate or India & China’s refusal to do anything; or, perhaps, just the realisation of the enormity of the cost.

November 6, 2009 3:45 pm

I don’t think China and India are bad guys – I think they’re the sane guys.

John F. Hultquist
November 6, 2009 3:45 pm

George E. Smith (15:29:01) :
Mark Wagner (13:59:41) :
Jeeze, George! I guess you two must be friends. Nothing else explains you unloading on Mark otherwise.
Now, say something nice.

Robert Wood
November 6, 2009 3:51 pm

Expect the Green Shirts to start getting more uppity.

November 6, 2009 3:54 pm

Is that statue the slave child of Thomas Jefferson?

Jerker Andersson
November 6, 2009 3:59 pm

The picture is “lille havsfru” ( I think that is what it is called in danish). It has its own very special history with cut off head and other weird sabotage.
In the background you see Sweden which is just cut off from denmark by a very narrow ocean which take about 20 min to bass with a ferry between Helsingborg and Helsingör( which is roughly 100 km north of Copenhagen)
One interesting thing about Denmark and sweden is that the southern part of sweden, for example the Skåne which is visible in the background, was dansih until 1658. That year, ort the year before that(cant remember exactly) Denmark declared war on Sweden while the swedish army was in Germany. Since denmark consists of roguhly 50% islands and Copenhangen is on an island it can onyl be attacked from sea. But during this winter it was so cold, even this far south that the swedish army could march towards Copenhagen over the sea ice which where strong enough to carry horses this far south. And as most of you know, who are regular visitor on this page, the 17th century suffered from the little ice age ( which do not exist according to Mann). Thanks to ( I am not sure if it is good or bad thoug) the little ice age and unprecedented frocen seas Sweden where able to recapture this land area which has been swedish since 1658.

November 6, 2009 4:01 pm

Anyhow, Philip you were caught cherry-picking
No cherry picking. No data to cherry pick. Just Just pointing out that icebergs in an area far north of Antarctica where they haven’t been seen before, and with little melting, being evidence for global warming is rather stretching credulity.
But if you want to believe this is evidence for global warming, I say go for it. Because belief is clearly much more important in this debate than rational evaluation of evidence.

David S
November 6, 2009 4:03 pm

“Copenhagen – not happening”
Is this a worldwide outbreak of sanity or just the appearance of sanity.

Gary Hladik
November 6, 2009 4:06 pm

Dan (15:31:36) : “Before painting China and India as bad guys, it’s important to note that China has 17 large nuclear power reactors under construction and India has 6.”
As far as I’m concerned, they’re about the only “good guys” in this whole mess:
(1) They’re busily raising large numbers of human beings out of poverty, which is something the whole world should be doing.
(2) Their pragmatism is a major obstacle to the wave of stupidity threatening the so-called advanced industrial nations (“Hey, they’re not sacrificing for the Goreacle, why should we?”).
If the West really does commit eco-suicide, I take some comfort that patches of relative sanity will survive elsewhere. They deserve all the rewards they’ll reap from our idiocy. More power (heh heh) to ’em!

John M
November 6, 2009 4:07 pm

Ack (14:00:22) :

Gives the participants another chance to have more big parties next year.

Well, they’ve already done Bali and Rio.
Acapulco? Tahiti? Isle of Capri?
Somehow, they never seem to end up in Detroit or Manchester.

November 6, 2009 4:08 pm

The U.S. is building either zero or one, depending on how you count.

The reason for this? Environmental nimbyism. From waste incinerators to nuclear power, low risk technological solutions are discarded. Everyone loves modernity, but nobody wants it in their back garden. On the other hand through neccessity here in the UK, we are selling our electricity industry to the French, because they have had the brains to develop and maintain a high technology nuclear power industry.
But on the OP, that Copenhagan was going to be a massive flop was obvious from the start. It’s interesting and somewhat amusing to me that the alarmism has peaked (I would say it peaked last year) at just around the time the temperature levelled off and may indeed be falling. If I believed in God, I would say he has a great sense of humour ;).

Robert Wood
November 6, 2009 4:14 pm

But they will have to go through the charade. After all, the world was going to end in 50 days.
Now, they cannot NOT turn up to the funeral.

November 6, 2009 4:28 pm

I would hold off the celebrations for the moment. We seem to have reached a phase where the climate profiteers and their dumb lackeys will plumb any depth to sell a carbon credit. Although I do have one suggestion if Copenhagen is a no-go … Take the money that the (?) 20,000 professional box tickers would have spent in Copenhagen and use it to raise one selected ‘third world’ country out of poverty.
I bet you could build the entire basic infrastructure (water, sewerage, power) of said country using only the Wine, Lobster and ‘additional expenses’ budget. As an additional bonus the reduction in hot air will help us move more quickly into the cooling phase. Most of us are a winner.
It may be just me but it seems like the propaganda is going beyond shrill and rapidly heading for “hey if it gets the job done then just make (sh)it up”?
Gore, seeing the possibility that his investments are at risk suggests that a bit of ‘non-violent lawbreaking’ never did anyone any harm.
Al we feel for you we really do. It must be heartbreaking to watch European markets heading to $100 billion (pdf) while your own can’t get off the ground. Loved the section title … ‘Cashing in on Carbon During the Credit Crunch’, gives me that warm fuzzy ‘saving the planet’ feeling all over.
On the same day, same paper we have the agony of the victims as we delay action..

Rich countries are using the US as an excuse to put their national interests above alleviating the suffering of the millions of people, said Antonio Hill, climate adviser for Oxfam.
Developing countries are fighting for their survival, said Greenpeace climate director Martin Kaiser.

Do these people have no shame? Busily saving the planet one scammed dollar at a time.
The big future problem that I see emerging from growing climate reality is that those who really need help most, the ‘third world’ are likely to be the only innocent victims long term. Can’t see myself shedding a tear for Al or any of the ‘first world’ climate scammers having lost their investment but, after this, I will also never back ‘third world’ charities such as Oxfam.

November 6, 2009 4:29 pm

Would be funny if China comes out at Copenhagen and says
translated: “Our top scientists have found that AGW is nothing more than a western hoax, our top psychologists advise us that Al Gore displays the behavior of another fat american conman”

November 6, 2009 4:36 pm

I was robbed ! When the forum was closed on the “status of religion” for AGW in the UK before I got the chance to ask the question:
What exactly does the status of religion mean for a movement?
Does it mean that they are protected from having to explain themselves, but at the same time, they don’t have the right to impose thier religious convictions about climate by force of law?
And in the US, would it mean that the law looks upon thier views as a belief, but not as factual in the present tense?
I’m looking for the implications that this might have on laws, or separation of church & state.

November 6, 2009 4:42 pm

Or take the money that was invested in goverment control of energy laws and use it to clean up toxic spills and polluted lands/waters.
I never had a problem with the SuperFund concept. Picking up the garbage is ok by me. Spring cleaning, Gaia scrubbing, that sort of stuff. Cleaning the oil off of birds and animals when a spill occurs. Catching the toxic wastes that are dumped irresponsibly. You know, the real Green stuff that should be done.
Hire lots of people who have no jobs and do something useful instead of hijacking our weather and forcing everyone back to the Dark Ages of fuedalism.
No on Green Greed.
Yes on Cleanup on Aisle #4.

Ron de Haan
November 6, 2009 4:52 pm

Wake up guys, those behind the scam are a tough bunch of characters and they won’t back off. They will try to set the political frame work (which is the most vicious part of the treaty) and fill in the details later.
Don’t let the media sprinkle sand in your eyes and stay vigilant.
They don’t need to make arrangement up to the year 2050.
So I think they will try to set up a deal for 20% in Co2 reductions by 2020.
It will come as bad as it comes. Don’t forget they’ve invested almost 100 billion dollars in this hoax and they want “value for the money”.
What they can’t finish in Copenhagen will be finished in Mexico.
Yesterday during a visit of the Royal Dutch Family to Mexico the Prins of the Netherlands held a speech about Global Warming.
He only speaks about a subject when success is assured.
There will be a tremendous pressure on the US Government from abroad and there already is a tremendous pressure on the Decision Makers in Washington so despite what the Press is stating, Copenhagen could go anywhere.
So watch it.

Kevin S
November 6, 2009 4:53 pm

I’m truly heartbroken over this. I mean, truly, my heart bleeds. We have to wait one more year before another worthless “Chicken Little” conference takes place? The inhumanity. I mean, I thought that this was absolutely critical, isn’t that what the UN Gen. Sec. said? Well, what good will the conference be now when no one is alive to attend? Or are they going to rent Kevin Costner’s raft and search for the last spit of land?
With all the hype they threw on this conference, there is but one term to use: Epic Fail. By that I mean it only gives more time for the skeptics to continue de-programming the brain-washed masses who have yet consumed the kool-aid. This is one more nail in their coffin. You don’t preach about the dire need for an event only to cancel because you can’t get a couple of kids to play. Keep up the pressure everyone, the broadfront strategy is working.

Don B
November 6, 2009 4:56 pm

Re: jerker Andersson (15:59:30)
This summer I saw The Little Mermaid from the opposite view, from a tourist boat which got close enough to get a good look at dozens of tourists on the shore taking photos.
During the tour I asked the guide if Copenhagen had sea ice, which was on my mind since I had seen ice breakers in another Baltic harbor, and he quickly and dismissively said that the sea did not freeze there. He was young, and had no appreciation of history.
Those who gather in Copenhagen in early December have no understanding of history, either.

November 6, 2009 5:01 pm

China and India are not the only “good” guys. As of this week, Japan started burning plutonium in their power reactors.
And they have a healthy development program for fast breeder technology.

Retired Engineer
November 6, 2009 5:03 pm

Ack (14:00:22) :
“Gives the participants another chance to have more big parties next year.”
Far less expensive than what they have in mind for the rest of us.

November 6, 2009 5:15 pm

What exactly does the status of religion mean for a movement?
It means they can do things that are irrational, unscientific, and not supported by the evidence without being legally liable for the consequences.
Rather appropriate if you ask me.
An example is not vaccinating a child say for polio. If the child gets polio then the parents could be criminally negligent in not vaccinating their child. But if the parents claim they didn’t vaccinate because of religous belief then that would be a valid defence.

Robert L
November 6, 2009 5:20 pm

Maybe there is some hope afterall. What an incredible waste.

Bill Illis
November 6, 2009 5:25 pm

The South Pacific must be awfully cold for an iceberg to be floating around for years without melting.
The terms “legally binding” and “pay financial aid to poor nations” and “religious conviction” and “climate change activists have distorted facts about global warming” and “Delay is preferable to error” …
… should give any rational person pause.

November 6, 2009 5:36 pm

Speaking of willing goons that surround the climate scammers…. I have to ask (from a UK POV) Watts up with this? There is no point in denying it: we’re losing. (don’t visit the link or he gets another week in paid employment)

There is no point in denying it: we’re losing. Climate change denial is spreading like a contagious disease. It exists in a sphere that cannot be reached by evidence or reasoned argument; any attempt to draw attention to scientific findings is greeted with furious invective. This sphere is expanding with astonishing speed.

Has this gruesome little man looked in the mirror and recognised that the scam is winding up and he may have to get a real job? In a world of ’20 foot sea level rise’ he is the only one with no beach front property?
Yet he manages to go on …

Such beliefs seem to be strongly influenced by age. The Pew report found that people over 65 are much more likely than the rest of the population to deny that there is solid evidence that the earth is warming, that it’s caused by humans, or that it’s a serious problem.

Err.. George.. wouldn’t they be the people most likely to have experienced a full 60-70 year cycle you muppet. Of course they are also the people most likely to have seen you and your ilk come and go like the tide. Ride the wave then get dumped on the beach.
He really does seem to have a problem with anybody (age wise) resembling the Bearded Bungler (see a pattern here folks? Again don’t visit – he gets paid if you do). The trouble with attacking ‘bearded bunglers’ like David Bellamy is that as a child DB was a big influence on my life whereas ‘George’ just reminds me of ‘Grima Wormtongue’. Like I said earlier – a gruesome little man.
George Monbiot – lets all wish him the best, you have to respect a man that has made a living for so long out of 0.6C. Shame he won’t (AFIK) be getting his reward from the carbon markets he has done so much to create. Tool.

John Peter
November 6, 2009 5:38 pm

Jerker Andersson wrote above: “The picture is “lille havsfru” ( I think that is what it is called in danish). It has its own very special history with cut off head and other weird sabotage.
In the background you see Sweden which is just cut off from denmark by a very narrow ocean which take about 20 min to bass with a ferry between Helsingborg and Helsingör( which is roughly 100 km north of Copenhagen)”.
It is actually “Den lille havfrue”. or “The Little Mermaid” in English. What you see behind is not Sweden but Holmen, that used to be the main naval facility for the Danish Navy. The white ship with the yellow funnel is the Danish royal yacht. A new bridge spanning Oeresund was opened around nine years ago linking Copenhagen with Malmoe in Sweden by road and rail. Fortunately relations are more relaxed between Sweden and Denmark now so no chance now of a hostile Swedish army making an assault using the bridge.

Mark Wagner
November 6, 2009 5:45 pm

John F. Hultquist (15:45:59) :
George E. Smith (15:29:01) :
Mark Wagner (13:59:41) :
Jeeze, George! I guess you two must be friends. Nothing else explains you unloading on Mark otherwise.

no worries. Mark is from the US of A. Dallas, TX. Ditto what he said.
Wake up guys, those behind the scam are a tough bunch of characters and they won’t back off. They will try to set the political frame work (which is the most vicious part of the treaty) and fill in the details later.
Ditto what he said, too. Whether they are true believers or just con men (algore, IMO) this cuts to the very core of their person. They WILL NOT go quietly.

November 6, 2009 5:52 pm

Robert Wood (15:42:51) :
What was the Tipping Point? Boxer’s bungle in the Senate or India & China’s refusal to do anything; or, perhaps, just the realization of the enormity of the cost.

I personally take credit for my 100’s of twitter messages re-tweeting WUWT messages. 🙂

ian middleton
November 6, 2009 5:53 pm

“Gaia scrubbing”, what a brilliant term. Lets use Al Gore as a mop then we might get some good use out of him.

November 6, 2009 6:06 pm

Mark Wagner (17:45:30) :
I agree Mark. They will not go quietly. The late night bill-passing is not going well.
Which explains the stormy look on my Senator’s face.
Don’t blame your constituents for voicing thier displeasure over what you’ve been doing to thier future, Senator Boxer. Nobody wants to pay a kings ransom over a fairy tale.

November 6, 2009 6:46 pm

This attitude is what we’re dealing with: click

November 6, 2009 6:54 pm

rbateman (16:36:16) :
What exactly does the status of religion mean for a movement?

(If people saw it in the cold light of day) An end to (teaching) frightening kids using an imaginary god (Gaia) where original sin (like heating your home) is punished in Hell (burning trees, drowning fluffy pets) unless you ‘see the light’ and join with us all and worship at our Alter.
I have no problem with conventional religion. The thing about Catholics, Jews, Protestants … whatever, is that they believe and get on with their belief. They have no real reason to ‘convert’ others – sin is punished elsewhere.
The problem with warmers is that they believe that we will all be punished collectively and here on Earth – hence the overwhelming need to rabidly convert everyone. As far as they are concerned, If, at the ‘end of days’, there is a single group around that is not seen to be ‘part of the solution’ then we will all be punished for their ‘sins’.
Dangerous belief system if you ask me. You are ‘one of us’ or you are ‘the enemy’.
I have a pet warmer (green party local activist) who fundamentally believes that the UK population should be around 2 million. I keep trying to pin him down on how we get there and what happens to the other 58 million but he refuses to get specific . I asked about hypothermia once people cannot afford to heat their homes and his answer to that one was that nature always seeks a balance.
A true believer. What is worse, I discovered that his main income comes out of local taxpayers via work for the local ‘green’ representative. Worse still his wife turns out to be a Primary School teacher (young pliable minds division). These people go way beyond dangerous.

Doug in Seattle
November 6, 2009 7:05 pm

Ray (14:33:38) :
Hey! That’s the Little Mermaid statue in Vancouver, BC!!!

The one in Vancouver has a wetsuit and diver’s mask on. Otherwise, they look similar.

Bob Long
November 6, 2009 7:46 pm

Delay is preferable to error.
–Thomas Jefferson
Not according to Australia’s Prime Minister:
“It is time to remove any polite veneer from this debate.”
“The clock is ticking for the planet, but the climate change sceptics simply do not care.”
“By slowing the actions of each individual country, they [sceptics] aim to slowly drag global negotiations on climate change to a standstill.”

November 6, 2009 8:27 pm

Smokey (18:46:45) :
This attitude is what we’re dealing with

That is also why Britain today is covered with CCTV cameras wherever people live, and why the schools are sending in mandatory reports on racist remarks by children from the earliest years onward. It’s madness, and the only so-called solution, is for Britain to become the Western Province of the new European Union of Socialist Republics. That has been the goal all along for the Leftist radicals, and nobody knows how to stop them now.

Trust me on this one – the UK is way beyond that. You could now expect a report if your child was found reading WUWT at school (no exaggeration) or found in possession of salt (no stretch either). Nanny has no bounds and no oversight.
What you get is an endless stream of taxpayer cash being handed to hundreds of NGO’s that then use it to back policy whilst gaining immunity to any kind of scrutiny (eg FOI request). Be it the ‘Carbon Trust’ with their drowning pets, our favourite the Met Office or the ACPO – all creepy ‘private’ companies funded entirely by government and completely immune to any kind of scrutiny. Help the party when required, keep your funding.
As to ‘nobody knows how to stop them now’ expect a big increase in votes to the radical end of the spectrum (see last UK EU results). Both at local and EU level. It’s not that we are all becoming radical it is just the only way we have left to shaft these people.
The EU looks more like Russia under Stalin every day, everything is in place only nobody wants to step up for the main job right now. Layer upon layer of un-elected, un-accountable functionaries, committees meeting in secret, no voting just a stream of proclamations. There is good reason for not giving the UK a referendum on anything EU. As things stand the result may just be ‘no to this’ but the longer we are kept in this state the more likely the vote will be ‘exit’. You can only silence people for so long.

November 6, 2009 10:20 pm

Delay is preferable to error.
–Thomas Jefferson
By slowing the actions of the fast-talking panic-spreading hustlers, the people suddenly realize the sky isn’t burning and the seas boiling. Are these the people who made the nations tremble? Why, they’re not Gods after all. Look, they got it all wrong.

Indiana Bones
November 6, 2009 11:31 pm

Dan (15:31:36) :
Dunno Dan. It’s really all about greed. And peoples’ pride. The leftist social communists saw an opportunity in the green movement right after the Wall came down. They figured, enviros are faithful, believers, ready to be indoctrinated. Let’s subvert from the green base. Sweet revenge!
But socialists, like capitalists (only less honest about it) love power. They sat in their basements and twiddled their Playstations and figured a plan to dominate the world! Dr. No couldn’t have twiddled better. Meanwhile, Maxwell Smart and Agent 99 were undertaking vast counter measures against Boris Badenov. They were not about to give up their cushy oil lubricated fiefdom held in place by burying breakthrough technology and manufacturing enemies out of turbans.
Pitted against each other and themselves is this gaggle of spies. The biggest loser? You. And just plain folks the world over. Why? So these pathological liars can keep their little castles and lord it over the monkeys. And, we haven’t even mentioned the space aliens who feed both sides tidbits of technology so they have some hilarious sitcom content.
But we digress. Good people are held captive by this stupefying display of immature selfishness. On all sides. Purportedly there are some in this debacle who claim to be “enlightened.” So far, we see only luminous paint on thinly disguised shadows. If this is what the universe portends – it is not worth pursuit. Heaven’s absolute worst assignment. Dam!
good knight.

November 6, 2009 11:41 pm

Someone better warm the Maldives that there’s an Iceberg out looking for them.

November 7, 2009 12:36 am

3×2 (20:27:23) :
You wrote, “The EU looks more like Russia under Stalin every day”
That is Pravda’s view as well.
By Hans Vogel
Now that the Czech Republic has announced it will ratify the Lisbon Treaty, the EU will be even closer yet to becoming a unified monster state, with more than half a billion inhabitants. Inhabitants is the correct term, since “citizens” would indicate a set of political rights. The people living in the EU should rather be called “subjects,” since they have no influence whatsoever on the constitution of the centralized European government, the “European Commission.”
(Pravda is Russian for Truth.)

November 7, 2009 4:32 am

3×2 (16:28:04) :
Can’t see myself shedding a tear for Al or any of the ‘first world’ climate scammers having lost their investment but, after this, I will also never back ‘third world’ charities such as Oxfam.

Recently I’ve started questioning just what it is that some charities do. Previously I’d just assumed the money was being put to good use. Now if someone asks for monthly donations, I ask questions. There was a charity asking for money to help drug addicts. They were very enthusiastic about how much help they were giving the addicts, and how well it was working. I asked them, how many of the people you help, are still addicts two years later? (Two years is a ball park figure for knowing that the changes are working.) The charity guy had no idea. He kept insisting it worked. His colleague rang their supervisor. Whilst the guy was telling me what a great person the supervisor was, “a veggie and everything”, the colleague came back and said the supervisor didn’t know either, it wasn’t something the charity monitored. The guy insisted again that it worked great. I said, wouldn’t it be a really impressive statistic, to be able to print in your glossy brochure here which you’ve handed me, to show that after two years, 50% are still off drugs? Or even 10%? Heck if it was just 5% that would be 5% helped. The guy was incredulous. I waked off.
It isn’t that there are no victims in the world. The problem is whether anybody really knows how to help. Often what is needed isn’t more money, it is more knowledge.
One could be cynical and say that, if someone knew how to cure an addict, the addicts themselves would hire the person. But if you don’t know how to cure addicts, and nevertheless you want to be paid to cure addicts, then you go work for a charity.

Robert Wood
November 7, 2009 6:32 am

India and China are sensible countries.

Capn Jack Walker
November 7, 2009 6:45 am

There are merminks in Copenhagen port that are not a Harbor. I always knows this.
Bloody mermink thieves.

Martin Brumby
November 7, 2009 9:43 am

It is always tough to make predictions for a fairly short period of time. Easy enough to claim something silly, like the moon will turn into a pumpkin or that that the World will be toasty warm in 90 years time. In 90 years time you ain’t going to be around to be accused of misleading people or taking money under false pretences.
But if you are predicting what’ll happen next month, then you have to either have a clue what you are talking about (so Piers Corbyn looks a much better bet than the MET Office) or you need to sprinkle plenty of get out clauses and weasel words in there. Or have somewhere nice to hide.
But despite this, having carefully gazed into my crystal ball, here is my prediction for the Copenhagen Conference:-
Firstly, it will be claimed by the UN, many “scientists” and politicians to be a famous victory (despite some inconvenient problems). After all, as Dunkirk is still remembered as a “famous victory” in the UK, there is a precedent for this kind of claim.
Certainly they will agree to something really lame, probably along the lines that “action will be taken to limit global temperatures to no more than 2ºC above 1998 levels by the turn of the Century.” This will be met with howls of outrage by the hard line Greenies and calls for Europe & the US to be Carbon Neutral by 2010, or something equally ludicrous.
But, behind the scenes, whilst all the razmataz is going on under the eyes of the ignorant and lazy media, real progress will be being made by our ‘leaders’ in working towards a World Eco-fascist super state.
Rome wasn’t built in a day and even the EU “project” has taken decades to get where it is now – and if the current undemocratic and breathtakingly incompetent state of affairs in the UK would have been thought absolutely fanciful if suggested 40 years ago – the project still isn’t complete as Jean Monnet envisaged it.
Whatever the outcome of the allegedly ‘scientific debate’ on AGW, there is absolutely no way those trans-national fascists will EVER give up.
Eventually, we are just going to have to find a way to stop them.

November 7, 2009 1:35 pm

Exactly when did Gore’s book come out? This afternoon it was #32 at Amazon. I would have expected better from a Nobel prize and Oscar winner.

John Nicklin
November 9, 2009 2:11 pm

Best news I’ve heard all day.

December 9, 2009 12:28 am

ha ha ha

December 9, 2009 12:31 am

i say we sould stop littering and causing pollution to and think about our actions.

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