For those that don’t read a lot of the WUWT comments closely, there has been a scholarly argument going on between Tom P of the UK and several WUWT commentators over the methodology Steve McIntyre used to illustrate the “breathtaking difference” between the plot of the hand picked set of 12 Yamal trees and the larger Schweingruber tree ring data set also from Yamal. Tom P. reworked Steve’s R-code script (which he posted on WUWT) to include both the 12 excluded and the Schweingruber and thought he found “insensitivity to additional data”, saying “There is no broken hockeystick”.
Jeff Id audited the auditor of an auditor and found that Steve’s work still holds up “robustly”. – Anthony
Just a short post tonight I hope. Tom P, an apparent believer in the hockey stick methods posted an entertaining reply to Steve McIntyre’s recent discoveries on Yamal. He used R code to demonstrate a flaw in SteveM’s method. His post was on WUWT, brought to my attention by Charles the moderator and is copied here where he declares victory over Steve.
Steve McIntryre’s [sic] reconstructions above are based on adding an established dataset, the Schweingruber Yamal sample instead of the “12 trees used in the CRU archive”. Steve has given no justification for removing these 12 trees. In fact they probably predate Briffa’s CRU analysis, being in the original Russian dataset established by Hantemirov and Shiyatov in 2002.
One of Steve’s major complaint about the CRU dataset was that it used few recent trees, hence the need to add the Schweingruber series. It was therefore rather strange that towards the end of the reconstruction the 12 living trees were excluded only to be replaced by 9 trees with earlier end dates.
I asked Steve what the chronology would look like if these twelve trees were merged back in, but no plot was forthcoming. So I downloaded R, his favoured statistical package, and tweaked Steve’s published code to include the twelve trees back in myself. Below is the chronology I posted on ClimateAudit a few hours ago.
TomP' s plot. Click to enlarge Source: http://img80.yfrog.com/img80/1808/schweingruberandcrud.png
The red line is the RCS chronology calculated from the CRU archive; black is the chronology calculated using the Schweingruber Yamal sample and the complete CRU archive. Both plots are smoothed with 21-year gaussian, as before. The y-axis is in dimensionless chronology units centered on 1.
It looks like the Yamal reconstruction published by Briffa is rather insensitive to the inclusion of the additional data. There is no broken hockeystick.
Jeff Id’s version of TomP’s graph – Click to expand
I spent some time tonight looking at his results. Time planned for analyzing Antarctic sea ice. I found that essentially the only difference in the operating functions of the code is the following line.
.
Steve M —- tree=rbind(yamal[!temp,],russ035)
Tom P —– tree=rbind(yamal,russ035)
.
The !temp in Steve’s line removes 12 series of Yamal for the average while Tom’s version includes it. I’m all for inclusion of all data, but I am a firm believer that Briffa’s data is probably a cherry picked set of trees to match temp or something. Therefore by inclusion of the sorted Briffa Yamal version, we have an automatic exclusion of data which would otherwise balance the huge trend. However, this is not the problem with Tom’s result. The problem lies in this plot, also created by Tom P’s code.
Tom P’s Yamal Reconstruction – Count per Year. Click to Expand
Here is the zoomed in version:
Above we can see that everything in TomP’s curve after 1990 is actually 100% Briffa Yamal data.
So the question becomes – What does the series look like if the Yamal data doesn’t create the ridiculous spike at the end the curve?
I truncated the black line at 1990 below.
The black line is truncated at the end of the Schweingruber data and it looks pretty similar to the graph presented in the green line by Steve McIntyre again below.
Don’t be too hard on Tom P, he honestly did a great job and took the time to work with the R script which is more than most are willing to. Steve is a very careful worker though and it’s damn near impossible to catch him making mistakes. Trust a serious skeptic, it’s not easy to find mistakes in his work and some of us check him just as I spent over an hour checking Tom’s work. In my opinion Tom deserves congratulations for his efforts and checking, this way we all learn.
I’ve now been all the way through SteveM’s scripts from beginning to end and can’t find any problems with the script, maybe others can!
There are 252 distinct series in the CRU archive. There are 12 IDs consisting of a 3-letter prefix, a 2-digit tree # and 1-digit core#. All 12 end in 1988 or later and presumably come from the living tree samples. The nomenclature of these core IDs url (POR01…POR11; YAD04…YAD12; JAH14…JAH16 – excluding the last digit of the ID here as it is a core #) suggests to me that there were at least 11 POR cores, 12 YAD cores and 16 JAH cores.
It is “possible” that they skipped ID numbers, but this is a farfetched theory even for Tom. As surmised here, the missing ID numbers are “evidence” of at least 39 cores and that the present archive is not only too small, but incomplete.
I am online too much, but I am not online 24/7. I’ve been out playing squash. Surely I’m allowed to be offline occasionally without a poster commenting adversely on this.
While I was out, CA crashed as well. Thus, it was “quiet.
Contrary to Tom’s speculations and misrepresentation of my statements, it is my opinion that there is considerable evidence that the 12 cores are not a complete population i.e. that they have been picked form a larger population. Rather than quote form actual text, Tom puts the following words in my mouth that I did not say:
Steve McIntyre said they may well have been just the most recent part of Hantemirov and Shiyatov’s dataset and no selection would have been made.
This is not my view.
The balance of Tom’s argument is:
No, they are the twelve most recent cores. There’s been no evidence provided to suggest they are in any way suspect. ..There is no obvious reason to exclude them.
I disagree. I do not believe that they constitute a complete population of recent cores. As a result, I believe that the archive is suspect. There is every reason to exclude them in order to carry out a sensitivity as I did. The sensitivity study showed very different results. I do not suggest that the sensitivity run be used as an alternative temperature history. Right now, there are far too many questions attached to this data set to propose any solution to the sampling conundrum. It’s only been a couple of days since the lamentable size of the CRU sample became known and it will take a little more time yet to assess things.
Reasons why I “suspect” that a selection was made from a larger population include the following. A field dendro could take 12 cores in an hour. We took a lot more than that at Mt Allegre and a field dendro could be far more efficient. Thus, it seems very unlikely that the entire population of cores from the Yamal program is only 12 cores and on this basis, it is my surmise that a selection was taken from the cores. Standard dendro procedures use all crossdated cores and definitely use more than 10 cores if they are available.
This doesn’t “prove” that a selection was made, but it is reasonable to “suspect” that a selection was made and to ask CRU and their Russian associates to provide a clear statement of their protocols. There’s no urgency to do anything prior to receiving a statement of their sampling protocols. For this purpose, it doesn’t matter a whit whether the selection was made by the Russians or at CRU or a combination. In my first post on this matter – which Tom appears not to have read, I canvass the limited evidence for and against. There is certainly evidence supporting the idea that the 12 cores were among 17 selected by the Russians, but in other parts of the data set, the CRU population is larger than that used in the Hantemirov and Shiyatov chronology. The construction of the CRU data set is not described in any literature; the description in Hantemirov and Shiyatov has something to do with it, but doesn’t yield the CRU data data set. Some sort of reconciliation is required.
In addition, the age distribution of the CRU 12 is very different than the age distribution from the nearby Schweingruber population. In my opinion, the uniformly high age of the CRU12 relative to the Schweingruber population is suggestive of selection – in this respect, perhaps and even probably by the Russians. Again this isnt proof. Maybe they were just lucky 12 straight times and, unlike Schweingruber, they got very long-lived trees with every core. Without documentaiton, no one knows. In any event, this doesn’t help the Briffa situation. If these things are temperature proxies, the results from two different nearby populations should not be so different and protocols need to be established for ensuring that the age distribution of the modern sample is relatively homogeneous with the subfossil samples (and they aren’t.)
The prevailing dendro view is that an RCS chronology requires a much larger population than a “conventional” standardization. Thus, even if the data set had been winnowed down to 10 cores in 1990 and 5 cores at the end, this is an absurdly low population for modern cores, which are relatively easily obtained. Use of such small replication is inconsistent with Briffa’s own methodological statements.
Tom also misses a hugely important context. There is a nearby site (Polar Urals) with an ample supply of modern core. Indeed, at one time, Briffa used Polar Urals to represent this region. My original question was whether there was a valid reason for substituting Yamal for Polar Urals. The microscopic size of the modern record suggests that there was not a valid reason. However, this tiny sample size was not known to third parties until recently due to Briffa’s withholding of data, not just from me, but also to D’Arrigo, Wilson et al.
Until details of the Yamal selection process are known, my sense right now is that one cannot blindly assume – as Tom does – that what we see is a population. Maybe this will prove to be the case, but personally I rather doubt it. A better approach is to use the Polar Urals data set as a building block.
As to Tom’s argument that none of this “matters”, the Yamal data set has a bristlecone-like function in a number of reconstructions. While the differences between the versions may not seem like a lot to Tom, as someone with considerable experience with this data, it is my opinion that the revisions will have a material impact on the medieval-modern difference in the multiproxy studies that do not depend on strip bark bristlecones.
I honestly didn’t understand Tom’s argument anyway. I give you a group of so called proxies, you reject those that don’t match the instrumental record. Your conclusion should be that none of them are proxies (if at all) and those that fit may do so purely by chance. It seems to me a rather banal observation to make!
ROM (00:25:04) : …As has been demonstrated by one single dedicated and unpaid member of the public, Steve McIntyre, and in only a few days of work…
Actually ROM, as I’m sure you’ll remember, Steve has been on the case a lot longer than this (and effectively unpaid too, I think). Personally I think Steve deserves a double Nobel, one for persistence and statistical excellence and breaking new stats ground, and one for integrity and unfailing demands for appropriate courtesy and breaking new ground for the whole future of Science.
… but also this has been a team effort (the Real Science team) since Steve could not have done without Jeff Id, Roman, Hu, Mosh, Bender, and more than I can name.
Pragmatic
September 30, 2009 1:30 am
ROM (00:25:04) : “The backlash, the fallout and the doubts that must now be raised about the accuracy and scientific truthfulness of Nature and Science must now have a possibly devastating impact on the veracity of these publications.”
Indeed. The wanton destruction of venerable institutions of science all for impossible political ambition… Selfish hubris.
Rabe
September 30, 2009 1:31 am
I notice that some spammer means repeating trivialities all over the place is a sensible contribution to the otherwise excellent discussion.
Trust a serious skeptic, it’s not easy to find mistakes in his work and some of us check him just as I spent over an hour checking Tom’s work. In my opinion Tom deserves congratulations for his efforts and checking, this way we all learn.
I’ve now been all the way through SteveM’s scripts from beginning to end and can’t find any problems with the script, maybe others can! That is real peer review, unlike what we seem to have been getting from the Hockey Team.
Well done TomP and Jeff Id and the others involved in achieving something that would take the conventional peer review process two years to achieve. Perhaps online scientific debate and peer review is at last coming of age.
I am in total agreement. What is needed, however, is an impartial and honest host for such a Forum. I believe we have that in “Anthony and the mods” – Many thanks, guys!
bill
September 30, 2009 2:11 am
Why did you look though Tom P’s code for the changes He admits the change at the same instant that he shows the code! Tom P (15:24:58) :
jeez (15:12:26) :
Tried to -the code appears headed to the spam filter.
The tweak is simple enough – just remove the occurrences of [temp,] from the yamal index.
Lucy Skywalker (01:25:50) :
Yes, I do well remember the many, many long months that Steve McIntyre has been on this case and I have been reading or at least trying to read and understand as much as my old brain can of Mr McIntyre’s calculations and conclusions on this and the many other examples of doubtful climate science that he has opened up for examination.
And when he did finally get that data it seems it only took him a few days to put together the basic case that has demolished Briffa’s paper.
In no way did I wish to diminish the contributions of Steve McIntyre’s dedicated “band of brothers” who, to me as a statistical ignoramus, are incredibly gifted and an integral part of and major contributors to the breaking open of this whole case as I have understood it.
May I apologise to those gentlemen if it seems that I have neglected your contributions.
That was not my intention at all but Steve I think has been the real driving force to continually work at opening up this whole scam and show it for what it is.
I just hope that somewhere, somehow, there is still a decent, honest politician or a person of great political influence reading this who will see to it that Steve McIntyre and his band of fellow workers who have exposed this whole sordid episode will quietly work to see that Steve and his invaluable co-researchers get the recognition that they all undoubtedly deserve.
Robert Wood
September 30, 2009 4:01 am
Always, the teram’s reluctance to reveal data was problematic. Now we know why. Can we conclude that these poeple, Briffa, Jones, Mann et al. knew what they were doing? Or were they just incompetent 😉
Ray (22:23:54) :
So, let me get this straight… the faith of our economy and politics rest in a few dozen old trees somewhere that grew in a limited little spot on the earth?
UFB!
Priceless !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tim Clark
September 30, 2009 4:48 am
Rhys Jaggar (01:02:40) :
Am I to understand that a major contributor to our assertions on ‘hockey stick’ runaway ‘global warming’ is not directly measured temperature data using a Stevenson Box (or whatever you use to measure temperatures in winter in deepest Siberia), but a series of TREE RINGS?
Robinson (01:21:46) :
I honestly didn’t understand Tom’s argument anyway. I give you a group of so called proxies, you reject those that don’t match the instrumental record. Your conclusion should be that none of them are proxies (if at all) and those that fit may do so purely by chance. It seems to me a rather banal observation to make!
I agree. Correct me if I’m wrong. It appears the intent of the Briffa and subsequent tree ring analyses was to determine if those rings could be used as proxy for temps and therefore extend the temperature record back in time to the MWP and LIA. Then you select those cores that match the current temperature record. Is that not circuitous logic? If all the available cores don’t match the current temperature record, then either tree cores are not a proxy, or the current temperature data to which the limited core samples were matched is suspect. Is there any truth in Science?
P Wilson
September 30, 2009 6:05 am
mrpkw (04:32:22) :
Tree rings are no measure of temperature, given the variables that take place such as total sunlight, humidity, drought, precipitation, competing nutrients, and many other biologial, climatic and ecological factors, even to disease and pestilence. IE. Its taken out of context.
Congrats to McIntyre for locating the bias, and to Biffra for undertaking the venture nonetheless
Its quite remiss that UEA would be so lazy as to infer a temperature from tree ring width and density without undertaking more forensics. Others have, such as oxygen isotope levels in sediment fossils, peat bogs and quite a considerable legend of other proxies. However, they infer a very warm MWP and so are not considered part of the aceptable range for official climatology
bugs
September 30, 2009 6:06 am
CO2 is an integral part of their strategy to control the world. Who are they? They are the Bilderbergs and the global wealthy elite human beings of the planet who’s only desire is to rule the whole entire place.
Are you here for the rest of the week?
Tom P
September 30, 2009 6:12 am
To repost from a lower thread:
Steve McIntyre’s chronology above shows the data before the inclusion of the Schweingruber cores, but not after. I have shown the entire combined chronology.
Here is the period when cores from both series are contributing, namely 1780 to 1990: http://yfrog.com/03schweingrubercru1780199p
I’ve reduced the truncated Gaussian smooth to three years to prevent the post-1991 CRU archive contributing to this series, hence the increased scatter in the points.
Here’s the entire series up to 1990 plotted on this basis: http://yfrog.com/9gschweingrubercru0019903p
It still doesn’t look like the blade has been broken.
===============
For those who would like to duplicate this, the R code changes:
yamal[temp,]
to
yamal[temp,]
truncated.gauss.weights(21)
to
truncated.gauss.weights(3)
ts.plot(f(chron.var1$series),ylim=c(0,2.8))
to
ts.plot(f(chron.var1$series),xlim=c(0,1990),ylim=c(0,2.8))
D. King
September 30, 2009 6:16 am
Steve McIntyre
Thanks so much Steve.
Now it’s time to look at sea ice satellite sensors, calibration,
AGC, receiver antenna pointing, and signal bias values.
Me thinks, something “hinky” this way comes.
P Wilson
September 30, 2009 6:21 am
Tom P. The concept of using tree rings to show nothing more than temperature is like showing how much coke there is in someone’s fridge to indicate how wealthy they are.
Lets not be silly
P Wilson
September 30, 2009 6:32 am
Rhys Jaggar (01:02:40)
Actually, i was thinking about this and if were were to be selective we could take the average temperature of Libya alone as a proxy for world temperatures, and then expect someone to refute it by taking the average temperature of Antarctica alone as a measure of world temperatures.
It still doesn’t explain: Why are comparative biochemistry and tree line studies not appearing in the future plots of past temperatures? The treeline during the period in question in Norther Russia was a good deal further north anyway. Its attributed thats because we haven’t reached MWP temperatures yet, although others say growing conditions are not as favourable yet. Either way, it shows that tree rings only indicate the growing conditions and not the temperature
P Wilson
September 30, 2009 6:35 am
ok, how would this anomaly be explained? In the UK, summer temperatures were greater than in 2008, yet my garden produced more vegetation than in 2006..
Should I infer that therefore, 2008 was a warmer summer than 2006?
Robert
September 30, 2009 6:36 am
Congrats too, to the Royal Society and their enforcement of policy, slow though it may have been.
And one wonders what interpretation Tom P. may give to the low number of cores in the modern data, and what motive he may ascribe to the obfuscation of that fact. Now that the data is out many such defenses may emerge, but they will now be forced to contend with some rather stubborn facts.
The withholding of data and methodology is all too common these days and there is only one reason for it. Perhaps the Royal Society policy – written 100 years ago no doubt – will serve as a reminder of this from back in the day when science was science and politics was politics.
Tom P
September 30, 2009 6:55 am
Steve McIntyre:
“Here is some conclusive evidence in respect to the following misrepresentation by Tom:
“”Steve McIntyre said they may well have been just the most recent part of Hantemirov and Shiyatov’s dataset and no selection would have been made.””
You have taken my comment out of context – this was with respect to the twelve cores in the CRU archive which you wish to omit from the record. There is no evidence that Biffra selected for this archive a subset of Hantemirov and Shiyatov’s cores – the published core-count plots for the most recent cores look very similar between Biffra 2008 and Hantemirov and Shiyatov 2002.
You further write:
“There are 252 distinct series in the CRU archive. There are 12 IDs consisting of a 3-letter prefix, a 2-digit tree # and 1-digit core#. All 12 end in 1988 or later and presumably come from the living tree samples. The nomenclature of these core IDs url (POR01…POR11; YAD04…YAD12; JAH14…JAH16 – excluding the last digit of the ID here as it is a core #) suggests to me that there were at least 11 POR cores, 12 YAD cores and 16 JAH cores.”
“It is “possible” that they skipped ID numbers, but this is a farfetched theory even for Tom. As surmised here, the missing ID numbers are “evidence” of at least 39 cores and that the present archive is not only too small, but incomplete.”
If you wish to exclude core series on the basis of incomplete label sequences, how about the Schweingruber series you first wanted to put against the CRU archive?
The live cores in the russ035 NCDC archive are numbered:
878012
878042
878072
878081
878101
878151
878152
878161
878162
878171
878172
878012
878042
878072
878081
878101
878151
878152
878161
878162
878171
878172
878181
878182
878191
878192
878202
878161
Shouldn’t suspicion fall on this core archive as well? Excluding one subset of a core archive on the basis of incomplete label sequences but including another series with the broken label sequences might lead to accusations of cherry picking.
Tim Clark
September 30, 2009 6:59 am
Tom P (06:12:58) :
So why does you graph disagree with the green line from the graph labeled Yamal RCS Chronologies above?
I honestly didn’t understand Tom’s argument anyway. I give you a group of so called proxies, you reject those that don’t match the instrumental record. Your conclusion should be that none of them are proxies (if at all) and those that fit may do so purely by chance. It seems to me a rather banal observation to make!
ROM (00:25:04) : …As has been demonstrated by one single dedicated and unpaid member of the public, Steve McIntyre, and in only a few days of work…
Actually ROM, as I’m sure you’ll remember, Steve has been on the case a lot longer than this (and effectively unpaid too, I think). Personally I think Steve deserves a double Nobel, one for persistence and statistical excellence and breaking new stats ground, and one for integrity and unfailing demands for appropriate courtesy and breaking new ground for the whole future of Science.
… but also this has been a team effort (the Real Science team) since Steve could not have done without Jeff Id, Roman, Hu, Mosh, Bender, and more than I can name.
ROM (00:25:04) :
“The backlash, the fallout and the doubts that must now be raised about the accuracy and scientific truthfulness of Nature and Science must now have a possibly devastating impact on the veracity of these publications.”
Indeed. The wanton destruction of venerable institutions of science all for impossible political ambition… Selfish hubris.
I notice that some spammer means repeating trivialities all over the place is a sensible contribution to the otherwise excellent discussion.
…oh and for God’s sake, thanks and congrats, Jeff, on spiking the spiker.
Michael (23:41:49) :
It should be called the “Yamal Briffa Affair”. Maybe for the movie?
“The Dendro Dozen”
Trust a serious skeptic, it’s not easy to find mistakes in his work and some of us check him just as I spent over an hour checking Tom’s work. In my opinion Tom deserves congratulations for his efforts and checking, this way we all learn.
I’ve now been all the way through SteveM’s scripts from beginning to end and can’t find any problems with the script, maybe others can!
That is real peer review, unlike what we seem to have been getting from the Hockey Team.
Well done TomP and Jeff Id and the others involved in achieving something that would take the conventional peer review process two years to achieve. Perhaps online scientific debate and peer review is at last coming of age.
I am in total agreement. What is needed, however, is an impartial and honest host for such a Forum. I believe we have that in “Anthony and the mods” – Many thanks, guys!
Why did you look though Tom P’s code for the changes He admits the change at the same instant that he shows the code!
Tom P (15:24:58) :
jeez (15:12:26) :
Tried to -the code appears headed to the spam filter.
The tweak is simple enough – just remove the occurrences of [temp,] from the yamal index.
I have checked the page where the raw data is, and it’s interesting to see the timestamps involved with the different objects on the page. It seems to have happened on Sep, 8th. But what intrigues me Steve is the TayBavRing.raw file; it also seems to be new. Might it also represent something special?
Ecotretas
Tue, 08 Sep 2009 10:38:27 GMT – http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/people/melvin/PhilTrans2008/
Sat, 21 Apr 2007 07:33:04 GMT – http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/people/melvin/PhilTrans2008/EurasianGridBox.dat
Thu, 24 Jul 2008 10:29:20 GMT – http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/people/melvin/PhilTrans2008/Column.prn
Mon, 14 Apr 2008 08:01:00 GMT – http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/people/melvin/PhilTrans2008/RCS_TRW_SSA.xls
Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:50:18 GMT – http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/people/melvin/PhilTrans2008/TornFinADring.raw
Tue, 08 Sep 2009 10:31:04 GMT – http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/people/melvin/PhilTrans2008/YamalADring.raw
Tue, 08 Sep 2009 10:31:08 GMT – http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/people/melvin/PhilTrans2008/TayBavRing.raw
Lucy Skywalker (01:25:50) :
Yes, I do well remember the many, many long months that Steve McIntyre has been on this case and I have been reading or at least trying to read and understand as much as my old brain can of Mr McIntyre’s calculations and conclusions on this and the many other examples of doubtful climate science that he has opened up for examination.
And when he did finally get that data it seems it only took him a few days to put together the basic case that has demolished Briffa’s paper.
In no way did I wish to diminish the contributions of Steve McIntyre’s dedicated “band of brothers” who, to me as a statistical ignoramus, are incredibly gifted and an integral part of and major contributors to the breaking open of this whole case as I have understood it.
May I apologise to those gentlemen if it seems that I have neglected your contributions.
That was not my intention at all but Steve I think has been the real driving force to continually work at opening up this whole scam and show it for what it is.
I just hope that somewhere, somehow, there is still a decent, honest politician or a person of great political influence reading this who will see to it that Steve McIntyre and his band of fellow workers who have exposed this whole sordid episode will quietly work to see that Steve and his invaluable co-researchers get the recognition that they all undoubtedly deserve.
Always, the teram’s reluctance to reveal data was problematic. Now we know why. Can we conclude that these poeple, Briffa, Jones, Mann et al. knew what they were doing? Or were they just incompetent 😉
Ray (22:23:54) :
So, let me get this straight… the faith of our economy and politics rest in a few dozen old trees somewhere that grew in a limited little spot on the earth?
UFB!
Priceless !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rhys Jaggar (01:02:40) :
Am I to understand that a major contributor to our assertions on ‘hockey stick’ runaway ‘global warming’ is not directly measured temperature data using a Stevenson Box (or whatever you use to measure temperatures in winter in deepest Siberia), but a series of TREE RINGS?
Robinson (01:21:46) :
I honestly didn’t understand Tom’s argument anyway. I give you a group of so called proxies, you reject those that don’t match the instrumental record. Your conclusion should be that none of them are proxies (if at all) and those that fit may do so purely by chance. It seems to me a rather banal observation to make!
I agree. Correct me if I’m wrong. It appears the intent of the Briffa and subsequent tree ring analyses was to determine if those rings could be used as proxy for temps and therefore extend the temperature record back in time to the MWP and LIA. Then you select those cores that match the current temperature record. Is that not circuitous logic? If all the available cores don’t match the current temperature record, then either tree cores are not a proxy, or the current temperature data to which the limited core samples were matched is suspect. Is there any truth in Science?
mrpkw (04:32:22) :
Tree rings are no measure of temperature, given the variables that take place such as total sunlight, humidity, drought, precipitation, competing nutrients, and many other biologial, climatic and ecological factors, even to disease and pestilence. IE. Its taken out of context.
Congrats to McIntyre for locating the bias, and to Biffra for undertaking the venture nonetheless
Its quite remiss that UEA would be so lazy as to infer a temperature from tree ring width and density without undertaking more forensics. Others have, such as oxygen isotope levels in sediment fossils, peat bogs and quite a considerable legend of other proxies. However, they infer a very warm MWP and so are not considered part of the aceptable range for official climatology
CO2 is an integral part of their strategy to control the world. Who are they? They are the Bilderbergs and the global wealthy elite human beings of the planet who’s only desire is to rule the whole entire place.
Are you here for the rest of the week?
To repost from a lower thread:
Steve McIntyre’s chronology above shows the data before the inclusion of the Schweingruber cores, but not after. I have shown the entire combined chronology.
Here is the period when cores from both series are contributing, namely 1780 to 1990:
http://yfrog.com/03schweingrubercru1780199p
I’ve reduced the truncated Gaussian smooth to three years to prevent the post-1991 CRU archive contributing to this series, hence the increased scatter in the points.
Here’s the entire series up to 1990 plotted on this basis:
http://yfrog.com/9gschweingrubercru0019903p
It still doesn’t look like the blade has been broken.
===============
For those who would like to duplicate this, the R code changes:
yamal[temp,]
to
yamal[temp,]
truncated.gauss.weights(21)
to
truncated.gauss.weights(3)
ts.plot(f(chron.var1$series),ylim=c(0,2.8))
to
ts.plot(f(chron.var1$series),xlim=c(0,1990),ylim=c(0,2.8))
Steve McIntyre
Thanks so much Steve.
Now it’s time to look at sea ice satellite sensors, calibration,
AGC, receiver antenna pointing, and signal bias values.
Me thinks, something “hinky” this way comes.
Tom P. The concept of using tree rings to show nothing more than temperature is like showing how much coke there is in someone’s fridge to indicate how wealthy they are.
Lets not be silly
Rhys Jaggar (01:02:40)
Actually, i was thinking about this and if were were to be selective we could take the average temperature of Libya alone as a proxy for world temperatures, and then expect someone to refute it by taking the average temperature of Antarctica alone as a measure of world temperatures.
It still doesn’t explain: Why are comparative biochemistry and tree line studies not appearing in the future plots of past temperatures? The treeline during the period in question in Norther Russia was a good deal further north anyway. Its attributed thats because we haven’t reached MWP temperatures yet, although others say growing conditions are not as favourable yet. Either way, it shows that tree rings only indicate the growing conditions and not the temperature
ok, how would this anomaly be explained? In the UK, summer temperatures were greater than in 2008, yet my garden produced more vegetation than in 2006..
Should I infer that therefore, 2008 was a warmer summer than 2006?
Congrats too, to the Royal Society and their enforcement of policy, slow though it may have been.
And one wonders what interpretation Tom P. may give to the low number of cores in the modern data, and what motive he may ascribe to the obfuscation of that fact. Now that the data is out many such defenses may emerge, but they will now be forced to contend with some rather stubborn facts.
The withholding of data and methodology is all too common these days and there is only one reason for it. Perhaps the Royal Society policy – written 100 years ago no doubt – will serve as a reminder of this from back in the day when science was science and politics was politics.
Steve McIntyre:
“Here is some conclusive evidence in respect to the following misrepresentation by Tom:
“”Steve McIntyre said they may well have been just the most recent part of Hantemirov and Shiyatov’s dataset and no selection would have been made.””
You have taken my comment out of context – this was with respect to the twelve cores in the CRU archive which you wish to omit from the record. There is no evidence that Biffra selected for this archive a subset of Hantemirov and Shiyatov’s cores – the published core-count plots for the most recent cores look very similar between Biffra 2008 and Hantemirov and Shiyatov 2002.
You further write:
“There are 252 distinct series in the CRU archive. There are 12 IDs consisting of a 3-letter prefix, a 2-digit tree # and 1-digit core#. All 12 end in 1988 or later and presumably come from the living tree samples. The nomenclature of these core IDs url (POR01…POR11; YAD04…YAD12; JAH14…JAH16 – excluding the last digit of the ID here as it is a core #) suggests to me that there were at least 11 POR cores, 12 YAD cores and 16 JAH cores.”
“It is “possible” that they skipped ID numbers, but this is a farfetched theory even for Tom. As surmised here, the missing ID numbers are “evidence” of at least 39 cores and that the present archive is not only too small, but incomplete.”
If you wish to exclude core series on the basis of incomplete label sequences, how about the Schweingruber series you first wanted to put against the CRU archive?
The live cores in the russ035 NCDC archive are numbered:
878012
878042
878072
878081
878101
878151
878152
878161
878162
878171
878172
878012
878042
878072
878081
878101
878151
878152
878161
878162
878171
878172
878181
878182
878191
878192
878202
878161
Shouldn’t suspicion fall on this core archive as well? Excluding one subset of a core archive on the basis of incomplete label sequences but including another series with the broken label sequences might lead to accusations of cherry picking.
Tom P (06:12:58) :
So why does you graph disagree with the green line from the graph labeled Yamal RCS Chronologies above?