Climate bill delayed and in "disarray"

From the U.S. Senate Committe on Environment and Public Works

Democrats Delay Global Warming Bill – Again

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Obama Agenda In “Disarray”

Washington, D.C. – U.S. Senator James Inhofe (R-Okla.), Ranking Member of the Environment & Public Works Committee, today said that he was not surprised to learn that Senate Democrats were forced once again to delay introduction of their global warming cap-and-trade bill. Throughout hearing after hearing in the EPW Committee this summer, it became apparent that Democrats were a long way off from reaching the votes necessary in the Senate to pass the largest tax increase in American history.

“The news today-that Sen. Boxer and Sen. Kerry will delay introduction of their cap-and-trade bill-came as no surprise. The delay is emblematic of the division and disarray in the Democratic Party over cap-and-trade and health care legislation-both of which are big government schemes for which the public has expressed overwhelming opposition. With the climate change debate on Capitol Hill, it’s safe to report that bipartisanship is nowhere in evidence. Cap-and-trade has pitted Democrat against Democrat, or, put another way, it centers on those in the party supporting the largest tax increase in American history against those in the party who oppose it. As to just who will win this intra-party squabble, I put money down on those representing the vast majority of the American people, who are clear that cap-and-trade should be rationed out of existence.”

In the last hearing before the EPW Committee before the August recess, Senator Inhofe spoke directly to the mounting concerns raised by Senate Democrats to cap-and-trade legislation:

Full opening statement provided below:

Climate Change and Ensuring that America Leads the Clean Energy Transformation

August 6, 2009

Madame Chairman, thank you for holding this hearing today. This is the last hearing on climate change before the August recess, so I think it’s appropriate to take stock of what we’ve learned.

Madame Chairman, since you assumed the gavel, this committee has held over thirty hearings on climate change. With testimony from numerous experts and officials from all over the country, these hearings explored various issues associated with cap-and-trade-and I’m sure my colleagues learned a great deal from them.

But over the last two years, it was not from these, at times, arcane and abstract policy discussions that we got to the essence of cap-and-trade. No, it was the Democrats who cut right to the chase; it was the Democrats over the last two years who exposed what cap-and-trade really means for the American public.

We learned, for example, from President Obama that under his cap-and-trade plan, “electricity prices would necessarily skyrocket.”

We learned from Rep. John Dingell (D-Mich.) that cap-and-trade is “a tax, and a great big one.”

We learned from Rep. Peter DeFazio (D-Ore.) that “a cap-and-trade system is prone to market manipulation and speculation without any guarantee of meaningful GHG emission reductions. A cap-and-trade has been operating in Europe for three years and is largely a failure.”

We learned from Sen. Dorgan (D-N.D.) that with cap-and-trade “the Wall Street crowd can’t wait to sink their teeth into a new trillion-dollar trading market in which hedge funds and investment banks would trade and speculate on carbon credits and securities. In no time they’ll create derivatives, swaps and more in that new market. In fact, most of the investment banks have already created carbon trading departments. They are ready to go. I’m not.”

We learned from Sen. Cantwell (D-Wash.) that “a cap-and-trade program might allow Wall Street to distort a carbon market for its own profits.”

We learned from EPA Administrator Lisa Jackson that unilateral U.S. action to address climate change through cap-and-trade would be futile. She said in response to a question from me that “U.S. action alone will not impact world CO2 levels.”

We learned from Sen. Kerry (D-Mass.) that “there is no way the United States of America acting alone can solve this problem. So we have to have China; we have to have India.”

We learned from Sen. McCaskill (D-Mo.) that if “we go too far with this,” that is, cap-and-trade, then “all we’re going to do is chase more jobs to China and India, where they’ve been putting up coal-fired plants every 10 minutes.”

In sum, after a slew of hearings and three unsuccessful votes on the Senate floor, the Democrats taught us that cap-and-trade is a great big tax that will raise electricity prices on consumers, enrich Wall Street traders, and send jobs to China and India-all without any impact on global temperature.

So off we go into the August recess, secure in the knowledge that cap-and-trade is riddled with flaws, and that Democrats are seriously divided over one of President Obama’s top domestic policy priorities.

And we also know that, according to recent polling, the American public is increasingly unwilling to pay anything to fight global warming.

But all of this does not mean cap-and-trade is dead and gone. It is very much alive, as Democratic leaders, as they did in the House, are eager to distribute pork on unprecedented scales to secure the necessary votes to pass cap-and-trade into law.

So be assured of this: We will markup legislation in this committee, pass it, and then it will be combined with other bills from other committees. And we will have a debate on the Senate floor.

Throughout the debate on cap-and-trade, we will be there to say that:

According to the American Farm Bureau, the vast majority of agriculture groups oppose it;

According to GAO, it will send our jobs to China and India;

According to the National Black Chamber of Commerce, it will destroy over 2 million jobs;

According to EPA and EIA, it will not reduce our dependence on foreign oil;

According to EPA, it will do nothing to reduce global temperature;

And when all is said and done, the American people will reject it and we will defeat it.

Thank you, Madame Chairman.

# # #

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118 thoughts on “Climate bill delayed and in "disarray"

  1. This man tells the truth!
    It’s interesting that they try to kill cap and trade without questioning the global warming theory. It seems to be politically incorrect in the U.S. too, to question the the theory behind it. Interesting.
    I want Ronald Reagan back!
    Bring back conservatism!

  2. Reducing CO2 emissions from fossil fuel consumption is easy. You merely increase the taxes on fossil fuels and decrease other taxes by the same amount (in revenue terms). People would then change their behaviour – travel less, buy more local goods, etc.
    Cap and Trade is being implemented across the developed world because the United Nations has designated it as the way to reduce CO2 emissions.
    The Left loves the UN. Thinking it can solve all the world’s problem, unlike venal and corrupt national politicians. Whereas in reality the UN is perhaps the most corrupt and incompetant organization on the planet. The UN wants Cap and Trade because of its potential for skimming money and scams. Dressed up as helping some poor group of course.

  3. Inhofe’s right hand man has been Mark Murano in this fight. Inhofe has been unflinching for a decade or more in this arena. It appears his persistence is now paying off.

  4. Typical politicians.
    If I had to lay a wager on it, I’d say the ‘internal polling numbers’ [the one we proles never see] over this issue [one of many] stink on ice.
    Could it be that the common ‘whispered’ question amongst the dems is: ‘how do we survive this mess we’ve created’?
    The chill wind they feel on the backs of their necks is the 2010 election.
    For them, it’s too close for comfort; for the ‘discontented’, it can’t come too soon.

  5. At least in the past Sen. Inhofe has done a tremendous amount to question/present the science and collect relevant research and information along those lines. I’d be curious how much of the huge amount of that information was presented in the 30 hearings that he notes, however – along with how many and which senators even bothered to show up at those hearings or how many were speeches to empty rooms. I’m assuming that he took the tact he did in this speech based on a combination of what presentation was likely to yield the biggest impact combined with tightly limited time constraints based on floor rules, or something along those lines. I also suspect that he’s likely to give pause to any moderate democrats by appealing to issues that they feel directly impact their chances of re-election…. in other words, the public is more likely to be moved by appeals to issues such as their pocket books, the fact that full implementation of cap and tax won’t make a bit of difference to CO2 levels and global temperatures making it nothing but a massive power and money grab, but it will kill lots of jobs, and so on. Far easier to get memorable soundbites or at least generate some attention to what is being said than by getting into the the ‘boring and confusing’ science details.
    You can find reams of information on the committee page. Inhofe’s information of course is all in the “minority” links and pages since he’s the minority leader. Some examples below.
    By the way, if you haven’t already heard it, Glenn Beck did a really great “Ronald Reagan Remix” of Reagan speaking about the slippery slope of any move towards socialized medicine. He presented it last week. You can find it online at youtube I’m pretty certain. I downloaded a copy of it to keep and send to friends.
    Carlin Investigation Continues: Inhofe, Barrasso Send Letter to EPA On Possible Manipulation of Endangerment Finding Aug 4, 2009 http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressRoom.PressReleases&ContentRecord_id=E7A1A451-802A-23AD-4350-FDB4A497DB37
    Update: 59 Additional Scientists Join Senate Report…More Than 700 International Scientists Dissent Over Man-Made Global Warming Claims March 2009 http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=10FE77B0-802A-23AD-4DF1-FC38ED4F85E3
    SENATOR INHOFE ANNOUNCES PUBLIC RELEASE OF “SKEPTIC’S GUIDE TO DEBUNKING GLOBAL WARMING” Dec 2006 http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressRoom.Facts&ContentRecord_id=8f5c9829-c459-4d17-89bb-3e3b04d8d444&Region_id=&Issue_id=
    You can also search on the committee page for wehatever keywords you like such as “climate change,” and then see the right hand column for “minority page.” For this particular example you’ll get 514 associated minority page links… and you can search for other key terms along the same lines, such as global warming, etc… http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm

  6. “….the American people will reject it and we will defeat it.
    Thank you, Madame Chairman.”
    Hear, hear. Well said sir.

  7. While Republicans in the US remain steadfast in their opposition to taxing the very air we breathe, here in Australia, our so-called “conservative” party simply looked at the polls and surrendered to our Labor government plans to sacrifice our children’s economic future on the altar of AGW fearmongering.
    Obviously, no serious observers believe that imposing new crushing taxes on 21 million Australians will have any measurable effect on the Earth’s climate, yet as a ploy to expand the public sector at the expense of the private, our ETS scheme works admirably.

  8. Johnny, –
    I would suggest that James Inhofe has been very clear in other forums that the notion that “Man made emissions of CO2 will cause catastrophic Global Warming” is a myth.
    He didn’t need to add that to this speech – different weapons for different battles.
    It is clear to me that James Inhofe is taking a real stand for the fundmental values and aspirations that underpin US society – vs forces that would willingly, or in ignorance, destroy it.

  9. Johnny it is not about global warming theory. I doubt there is a global warming theory but that is a side issue. This is about politics, taxes and religious zeal.

  10. Johnny Honda (23:17:47) :
    […]
    I want Ronald Reagan back!
    Bring back conservatism!
    DHMO (01:33:03) :
    […] I doubt there is a global warming theory but that is a side issue.
    I think WUWT readers need broader perspective. Cap’n’Trade is only one small piece of the USA puzzle. I suggest only two issues:
    1) Depression Special Report
    This SGS Special Report was first published on Aug. 1st to paid SGS Subscribers. It is now open for all to read, and can be found at:
    http://www.shadowstats.com/article/depression-special-report?nl
    Excerpt: While the current circumstance should become recognized as a “depression,” worse lies ahead as the U.S. government’s long-range insolvency and current efforts at debasing the U.S. dollar trigger a hyperinflation in the next five years. Risks for the onset of a hyperinflation in the United States are particularly high during the next year. As will be discussed in the soon-to-be-updated Hyperinflation Special Report (see the existing April 2008 version for basic background), the United States would be particularly hard hit by such a circumstance. Unlike Zimbabwe, which has been able to maintain some level of functioning commerce during its hyperinflation, due to the backstop of an active black market in U.S. dollars, the United States has no such backstop. Accordingly, a U.S. hyperinflation likely would force cessation of regular commerce, triggering a great depression of a magnitude never before seen in the United States.
    And true economic charts:
    Shadow Government Statistics
    Analysis Behind and Beyond Government Economic Reporting
    http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data
    2) From Russia Today
    Two months left to read the book on US collapse
    http://www.russiatoday.com/Top_News/2009-08-31/months-left-us-collapse.html
    Excerpt: The 2009 US budget deficit is 4.5 times the 2008 deficit, while firearms sales are up 40%. On October 1, the coupons that were given to state workers are to be cashed out. When the workers realize that they are getting nothing for those coupons, they will take out their firearms and chaos will unfold.
    BTW A word to moderator. If you play politics, let it be played to the end.
    Best regards

  11. James Inhofe deserves a vote of thanks from all Americans and, by extension, people around the world. If this travesty of a bill is rejected it will, in large part, be due to his efforts to bring to light the inconvenient scientific evidence which was being studiously ignored by the press and giving dissenters a platform. Certainly, he played a leading role in scuppering previous attempts to impose such legislation. Lord Monckton is the only other person I can think of who’s played a similarly large role in shaping public perceptions, simply by pointing out the shortcomings of the orthodox view in his own, inimitable way.
    Just as a general point, I have read Senator Inhofe’s comments on various issues and he sounds like an eminently practical and sensible person. Very rare in politicians. Its a shame he’s so elderly because he has real leadership potential.

  12. When the smoke has cleared on the cap and trade/global warming debate, history will record Senator Inhofe will stand as one of the heros of the truth.

  13. It is down in the US, too (at 6:00 a.m. MDT, GMT – 6 hours).
    The politicians are beginning to realize that pushing for heavy reform now, as they have been doing, is not what the American people want. They did indeed misinterpret the recent elections. The majority were simply tired of Bush, but they did not want Stalin as a replacement. If either of the health care reform or cap and trade bills is pushed through, these idiots will be voted out. As it stands, they may already be voted out.
    Mark

  14. Cap-and-trade is the financial cornerstone of the current administration’s plans to fund its other ambitious programs. Take that away and the illusion of a balanced federal budget in our lifetimes cannot be maintained, leaving the dreams of the political left in tatters. Therefore, this fight is a long way from over.
    There is good reason why most on the political left embrace AGW with dogged fealty and no real interest in scientific truth. They like where it takes us. There is equally good reason why many on the political right reject AGW with no more interest in the scientific truth of the matter than those on the left. They don’t like were it takes us. In neither case is reverence for “truth for its own sake” much in evidence.
    In the politics of a democratic system, “truth” is whatever the majority says it is. We should all keep that in mind when we begin to delude ourselves that we can scientifically prove ourselves out of a bad patch of political lunacy.
    CH

  15. Dictatorships don’t require the consent of the people or that of a puppet congress, to impose their will. Obama hasn’t been appointing Czars such as Holdren, Van Jones, Sunstein, Browner, etc., just for the hell of it.
    Ponder this for a second: From Sunstein :”In his book Democracy and the Problem of Free Speech Sunstein says there is a need to reformulate First Amendment law. ” . Van Jones is an avowed Communist by his own admission. And on, and on with many of the others. Holdren advocated (among other things ) forced sterilization to control population.
    Just recently a bill has been offered in the Senate (S.733) that will allow Obama to take control of private internet companies – all he needs is an “emergency”.
    Here’s a list of of Czars appointed by Obama and other presidents. Look up the history of some of these people in key positions. http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/08/31/climate-bill-delayed-and-in-disarray/#more-10440 .
    Does anyone seriously think that they (Obama and his cadre ) will allow Inhofe or others to get in the way of the bigger agenda? Inhofe is getting old. He could have a stroke any time.

  16. As a foreigner who pays about US$4.50 per gallon of gasoline, I would suggest you to accept or even promote a gas tax for fixing the deficit of your budget but without any relation or mention whatsoever to that stupidity called “global warming/climate change” related to CO2. So you will backing your country´s economic health and not inflating the next “finance bubble”, the “carbon bubble” which will only benefit a few of swindlers and which will be worst than the sub-prime one because it trades on nothing, it just pours the empty into the void, sucking with that gigantic vacuum all the money left in your impoverished pockets.

  17. wes george (00:36:31) :
    I think the explanation for Rudd’s position on this is much simpler. He is a former diplomat. His main motivation for becoming PM was so he could go to all the international meetings as PM. He was desperate to get recognition at the table with the “big boys and girls”. He saw signing onto Kyoto style policies with enthusiasm as a way of quickly ingratiating himself with the likes of Obama and Brown. He is selling Australia down the river to further his own personal ambitions. Turnbull is just as bad. He stands for very few principles apart, I suspect, from a genuine belief that Australia should become a republic.

  18. Here’s another interesting side note, which talks about the income potential of carbon trading to farmers – http://www.dtnprogressivefarmer.com/dtnag/common/link.do?symbolicName=/free/news/template1&paneContentId=5&paneParentId=70104&product=/ag/news/topstories&vendorReference=b88006fa-b53c-4980-88e5-e3a4e3a4d33e
    “One of the biggest shifts is that passage of a bill could improve the financial incentives for carbon trading. On the Chicago Climate Exchange, a ton of CO2 has collapsed from a historic rate of $2 to about 25 cents today. Once legislation mandates power companies and other industries to curb emissions, economists expect CO2 to trade for between $15 and $30 per ton, enough to generate sizable revenue streams for innovative producers. “

  19. Claude Harvey (05:07:31) : ….. “In the politics of a democratic system, “truth” is whatever the majority says it is. We should all keep that in mind when we begin to delude ourselves that we can scientifically prove ourselves out of a bad patch of political lunacy.”
    ———————————————————
    Claude, don’t make the mistake of thinking that America is just a Democracy…….. A mere mob rule. A pale, weak thing that European elites mouth to placate their sheeple.
    It is better than that sir. It is a Republic.
    It is a Republic that has enshrined the right of the individual to profit from their own endeavour. Thus they have written that into their Constitution. They have the freedom to be enterprising. To speak. To bare arms.
    The People of America in their times of stress will always look to their founding fathers and the constitution…. and expect their elected officials to uphold it to the letter.
    …. It is why it was written so.

  20. Przemysław Pawełczyk (01:55:39) :
    “BTW A word to moderator. If you play politics, let it be played to the end.”
    Please, no lectures on politics. You’re not a victim. Get over it.

  21. Lets be clear, it is a cartel just as bent on destruction as the drug cartels are that continues to be the central issue. Why blow up a building when you can stop western commerce in its tracts by raising the price of oil? What easier way to break the back of western society then to manage the price of oil to our detriment? Oil prices went up in our town again but I know there are tanks and tanks of stored oil all over the world, held by the cartel hamperheads so they can continue to cause instability in the western world. Cap and trade is dead in the water but the central issue continues to be ignored and is far greater than CO2. Those that wish us dead supply and control the oil to the world, as well as control the price. If Obama truly wants prosperity for his country and the world, he needs to take it to the oil cartel.

  22. Joe Romm is gloating and saying this best. He won’t call it what it is. It is an eye opening tax and power grab. The extremists had such a vengefull tax who you don’t like attitude and people know it. The bottom line is Obama must raise tax someway to pay debt. The best way is to lower taxes and feed growth.
    The warmists have been exposed.
    Their data gathering was dirty
    Their theories un confirmed
    The consequences of massive storms and heat all flopped.
    A small core group will get nastier. Algore is pushing for Obamacare as a needed moral endeavor. The theory is if they can win, they can win again using momentum.

  23. Johnny Honda (23:17:47) :
    This man tells the truth!
    It’s interesting that they try to kill cap and trade without questioning the global warming theory. It seems to be politically incorrect in the U.S. too, to question the the theory behind it. Interesting. . .

    Which generated these responses:


    Graeme Rodaughan (00:52:26) :
    Johnny, –
    I would suggest that James Inhofe has been very clear in other forums that the notion that “Man made emissions of CO2 will cause catastrophic Global Warming” is a myth.
    He didn’t need to add that to this speech – different weapons for different battles.
    DHMO (01:33:03) :
    Johnny it is not about global warming theory. I doubt there is a global warming theory but that is a side issue. This is about politics, taxes and religious zeal.
    Claude Harvey (05:07:31) :
    . . . There is good reason why most on the political left embrace AGW with dogged fealty and no real interest in scientific truth. They like where it takes us. There is equally good reason why many on the political right reject AGW with no more interest in the scientific truth of the matter than those on the left. They don’t like were it takes us. In neither case is reverence for “truth for its own sake” much in evidence. . .

    All of these responses to Johnny Honda’s observation are correct (and Claude Harvey’s in particular brilliantly stated). But we should not lose sight of the fact that the underlying premise of, the ostensible rationale (the official excuse) for Cap and Tax is the assumption that CO2 if unchecked will cause the Earth to warm up and cause all manner of catastrophes.
    This assumption is so sacrosanct that merely to question it is a form of heresy.
    So it is vital to continually reiterate, especially to the doofuses (doofi?) in the Congress, but also to the public at large, that the assumption of man-made CO2-caused ‘climate change’ (nee ‘global warming’) is false. There is no problem, no looming catastrophe, no reason for Cap and Tax or Copenhagen or anything else.
    Why? Because so long as the AGW assumption remains unchallenged, any wavering member of Congress can be pulled back into the orthodox fold by pressure from the Administration extremists who desperately want this huge stream of revenue for their own purposes, and by the useful enviro-idiots who want to save Mother Earth from the ravages of humanity.
    “Yes, we know your state depends on coal, but do you really want to destroy the planet?”
    Claude Harvey is right to say,

    . . . In the politics of a democratic system, “truth” is whatever the majority says it is. We should all keep that in mind when we begin to delude ourselves that we can scientifically prove ourselves out of a bad patch of political lunacy.

    But science in this case is our ally, and to the extent that we can sow the seeds of doubt amongst the wavering faithful, to that extent will we shift the majority away from lunacy.
    /Mr Lynn

  24. In a global market place we must look at policy actions that will increase our competitive position. This is accomplished by providing more efficient and lower cost transportation, electrical energy, natural gas resources, diesel fuel, etc. etc. The Cap & Trade scheme will do exactly the opposite.

  25. I think it is wonderful that in the US you still have a Chamber of Commerce prepared to dissent and representatives that are still responsive to the will of the people.
    Here in Britain we have handed over our democratic powers to an unelacted and democratically unresponsive EU and we have no politicains in any of our main local political parties prepared to stand up and be counted on this issue.
    We also have the state owned BBC dominating our media agenda acting as if it was a paid up member of the Green Party and ever ready either to ignore or otherwise to pounce on and attempt to discredit anyone who disagrees.
    For us like the rest of the Western World it is a nightmare. Can America please stand firm?. With power cuts now threatened due to these madcap policies Britain’s descent into the dark ages is about to become literal.

  26. So seeing how Climate Change has morphed to Health Care change, and the dreaded socialistic takeover of the world, I take it those opposed to “socialized medicine” are
    1. Too young for Medicare or
    2. Too rich for Medicaid or
    3. Have rejected participation in Medicare and Medicaid (and their pinko counterparts everywhere) on matters of principal and in efort to save the world.
    A show of hands please-who posting has rejected their eligibility ?

  27. Merrick (06:37:19) :
    Przemysław Pawełczyk (01:55:39) :
    “BTW A word to moderator. If you play politics, let it be played to the end.”
    Please, no lectures on politics. You’re not a victim. Get over it.
    Believe me, I will be a victim too. You are short sighted. Probably you look on Mr Inhofe from voters’ perspective, me, from abroad, try to look at the trends from higher points where such details are not visible. Let me quote:
    Curiousgeorge (05:20:04) :
    Does anyone seriously think that they (Obama and his cadre ) will allow Inhofe or others to get in the way of the bigger agenda?
    Bucks as a world currency are going to be ditched sooner or later (rather sooner if one believes in upcoming signals). In this context cap’n’trade bill has absolutely no meaning.
    Apropos my “BTW”. I was afraid my comment would be not approved hence my remark to moderator. Did I do something wrong?
    Regards

  28. Curiousgeorge (05:20:04),
    Obama does not need a majority in Congress in order to rule as a dictator. He simply needs to maintain a core group of true believers that can block any veto overrides. I feel that Obama would welcome a serious loss in 2010. It would provide him with a tool to purge the Democratic Party of conservatives and moderates, and, more importantly, it will provide him an opportunity to marginalize Congress as an impediment to “Hope” and “Change”.
    Direct appeal to the masses is the hallmark of 21st Century Socialism. In Latin America, the process has gone like this: An unknown academic or former military officer upsets the existing political stucture with a stunning upset victory at the polls; the new president immediately begins ruling by edict, setting up a highly centrist structure, bypassing balance-of-power controls; the Media is cowered into submition or taken over complelely, allowing no contrary views or criticisms; the existing constitutional structure is described as an impediment to progress and there is a call for a Constitutional Convention (or equivelent); a new Constitution is drawn up that gives all power to the Executive and eliminates presidential term limits (Remember, it only takes 38 states to call for a Constitutional Convention in the U.S., and the Obama people are already campaigning for it.); Businesses are expropriated, production collapses; Cuban style control structures are put in place; economy collapses, agricultural production collapses. The communist ideal of shared misery is realised.
    There have been variations, and it hasn’t succeeded in every country, but that is pretty much the formula. Ecuador had to do it twice when the ex-military president tried to go independent (He was only following historical precedence. That is how Ecuador started, breaking out of Bolivar’s Gran Colombia) and was removed, to be replaced by a loyal obscure academic in the next election. Mexico came perilously close to going hard-core Socialist in the last presidential election. Chile and Peru have stayed center left, for now. Honduras legally and constitutionally impeached their center left president after he was bought by Chavez and began following the formula (for some bizarre reason, the World only recognizes elections and ignores constitutions. How would we have felt if Nixon had been impeached and then received support from NATO, the OAS and the UN to force us to reinstate him?).
    I suppose that the only consolation is the knowledge that Socialism is destined to fail. It has never worked and will never work, because it denies human nature. Capitalism is based on human nature — hence its success, and its excess. The trick is harnessing Capitalism’s energy without snuffing out the flame or getting burned. Capitalism does not necessarily equate to personal freedom and can exist in a Socialist structure, as Capitalism is an economic concept and Socialism is a broader philosophy with an economic component.

  29. Nogw (06:01:33) :
    As a foreigner who pays about US$4.50 per gallon of gasoline, I would suggest you to accept or even promote a gas tax for fixing the deficit of your budget
    I was going to answer this…but it would be O/T, and hijack this thread into a political debate.

  30. Don’t forget that it is China and India who have really worked together to destroy this bill. Why say that? Because they have both agreed to refuse to any CO2 caps on their industries, which means they will have a huge manufacturing cost advantage over any US manufacturer if this passes. That’s why this bill will destroy US employment.
    So why not include some tarriffs, such as the House bill proposed? Because that is a direct violation of international law as specified by multiple treaties which the US is signatory to. We dare not repudiate these without starting an international tarriff and trade war – say Hello to Smoot and Hawley, 1931 if we go down that road. Too many people know that already, which is why this cannot now be passed.
    I’m betting the Senate never even gets around to introducing it thanks to the Health care fight, which means all those fools in the House who voted for Waxman-Malarkey walked the plank for nothing.

  31. Ron de Haan: I saw the Farmer’s almanac prediction, about the worst possible news if congress was counting on a warm winter to drum up support for the climate bill.
    Heck it looks like the next 10 days here will max out at only 82 at the highest which is still about 5 degrees below average according to Intellicast last I looked.
    With that in mind I guess it’s a good thing that two large cottonwood branches fell into our yard to increase our stock of firewood.

  32. @ Andrew Parker (09:09:56) :
    Well stated. Thanks for expanding on the theme. 🙂
    I do hope that this push towards Socialism or Totalitarianism or whatever strange form of government that is being manufactured by Obamas’ “Transformation of America” , fails before I do. I’ve only got about 20 years left at best, and I would prefer to die under the Constitution and freedoms that I spent 20+ years actively defending.

  33. Steve M. (09:22:55),
    I apologize for the overlong, and somewhat rambling, political commentary. I did consider adding something climate oriented, but it would have been a stretch. Nevertheless, isn’t the basic issue with AGW and its proposed mitigation the political hijacking of Science?

  34. John Egan (00:44:29) :
    James Inhofe is to one side –
    What James Hansen is to the other.
    Actually, No. James Hansen has also come out strongly opposed to the proposed crap and trade legislation.

  35. The Senate is wiselyrunning for cover on Wackman-Malarky, but the unelected bureaucrats in the EPA are still intent upon regulating carbon. Given the ideology of the top EPA appointees, their regulations are likely to be draconian and at least as harmful as Cap and Trade.
    People in government rarely give up power and almost never voluntarily pass on acquiring more power.

  36. Curiousgeorge (06:19:19)
    “Once legislation mandates power companies and other industries to curb emissions, economists expect CO2 to trade for between $15 and $30 per ton”
    Perhaps the power producers will just shut down the power stations and sell their credits

  37. Steve S. (07:25:03) :
    This politician who heads the large land use and transportation planing agency in Portland Oregon won’t like this news.
    Just as he didn’t like Japan throwing out of office their eco prime minister.
    http://www.blueoregon.com/2009/08/sympathique-for-former-prime-minister-taro-aso.html#comments
    A beyond ridiculous read.
    Yes- I just returned from the Blue Island of Portland,Nw Portland is an Eco friendly
    part of Portland,Trolley Caternary Wires every where,using power from? Dams?
    Boardman Coalfired Plant?All the freaking windmills on the Columbia hills?I saw the
    Trolleys and -no- passenger load to speak of. The streets were loaded with Piouses,BMW’s and Mercedes.I predict-the first icestorm in the Portland area-not snow-ice and the whole thing will collapse like a house of cards.Also I see the windmills having big problems too-with ice.Going home to NE Oregon-LaGrande,
    I felt like an astronaut returning to my home planet..
    FTA that was linked”Little Tomato” feh. The Japanese are whole heartedly going Nuke-including Oregon’s own designed”Pebble Bed” reactors.Japan is not Oregon or even Portland…

  38. Part of the Senate’s delay in addressing a Cap and Trade bill is the void (and the vote) presented by Ultra-Liberal Democrat Senator Ted Kennedy’s death. They (the Democrats) likely want to defer such an important bill until his seat is filled, preferably by another Democrat who will toe the party line.
    This is a big gamble, though, as the winter forecast is for a cold and grim winter. The blogosphere (but not the mass media) will have great fun contrasting the deep snow, gridlocked cities, very cold temperatures, etc. with a Senate debating how to prevent global warming.
    This will be highly entertaining to watch, and blog about. I encourage all bloggers to maximize your efforts to point out how badly wrong the IPCC predictions are.
    (IPCC = incompetents predicting climate catastrophe)

  39. Keep in mind that the passage of a Bill like Waxman Markey is not about how to best adopt a strategy to stop global warming. It’s about how to take power from business or the public and transfer it to government control. Once adopted the Government will have authority to tax and control all kinds of areas currently beyond their control in the name of AGW reduction. Permits for fireplaces, taxes on firewood, allocations of Charcoal briquettes, regulations on the color of roofs, cars you must buy, local and state requirements that will have to be met or suffer the loss of federal tax dollars. It’s all about power and money and has nothing to do with Climate Science. That’s why the AGW argument is essentially over, now it’s all about how to slice up the money pie.
    The alternative argument to AGW is just not a political winner. the argument that, Climate is a cycle, we cannot control it and therefore do not have to modify any energy policies, temperatures and the height of the oceans are not going to change much and we don’t have to worry about drowning the polar bears is just not something that will whip people up into voting for someone to replace the current pro AGW government.
    Thanks
    William

  40. Andrew Parker (09:09:56) :
    Well explained the Chavez’s formula of his 21st.century socialism (however I think he is not so clever to have planned all this, there are some behind, perhaps at the UN).
    If applied in the USA it will be also a total failure as it was in any place where socialism was applied.
    There is also a christian/catholic version of it: “The Gospel of Liberation”, authored by the peruvian “father” Gutierrez, which has been silenced by a papal order beause his “Gospel” supposed the existence of heaven on earth to be reached through a marxist “struggle of the masses”.

  41. Re: CPT. Charles (23:57:17) :
    Typical politicians.
    Could it be that the common ‘whispered’ question amongst the dems is: ‘how do we survive this mess we’ve created’?

    Probably the usual way politicians survive. Look for a scapegoat. In this case, perhaps poor/misleading/inconclusive scientific advice.
    So blame the UN IPCC, once you’ve found a way to shield or else sacrifice a few US scientists who became a little too politically active and lost objectivity.

  42. Good for Senator Inhofe and good for the rest of us.
    Now if we could just get the SCOTUS to reverse its judgment on CO2 [as a “pollutant”] and the EPA to disappear into the woodwork, maybe the nation could begin to recover from the mess we are in.

  43. ” Mr Lynn (06:59:44) :
    …So it is vital to continually reiterate, especially to the doofuses (doofi?) in the Congress..”
    Doofi! love it.

  44. M White (10:39:39): “Perhaps the power producers will just shut down the power stations and sell their credits.”
    Perhaps this will prove a boon for power plant construction — like crop subsidies that pay a farmer for acreage not planted? How about credits for coal not mined?

  45. Typical Republican — about half right.
    77% of the American people favor a public option for health care.

  46. Atomic Hairdryer (11:32:37) :
    Do you have any preferences about who would be your choice for that “scientist scapegoat”?
    It could be perhaps a matter of a poll, here, in WUWT. 🙂

  47. @Dan (07:56:46) :
    Dan (07:56:46) :
    So seeing how Climate Change has morphed to Health Care change, and the dreaded socialistic takeover of the world, I take it those opposed to “socialized medicine” are
    1. Too young for Medicare or
    2. Too rich for Medicaid or
    3. Have rejected participation in Medicare and Medicaid (and their pinko counterparts everywhere) on matters of principal and in efort to save the world.
    A show of hands please-who posting has rejected their eligibility ?

    What’s your point? Do I get to opt of of participating in those programs or do you expect to confiscate money out of every paycheck I have ever made and will ever make and then deny me benefits? Do I get a refund, plus interest for everything I’ve paid?
    Congress has exempted themselves from Social Security and MediCare. They do not have payroll deductions for those entitlements but instead get fully taxpayer supported pensions and other benefits. Like others who support the public option, Congress has also exempted themselves from that, too.
    And please don’t try to tell us that anybody who opposes ObamaCare is opposed to reform or selfish. Health care reform is needed but a government take-over is not necessary. It’s selfish to want to take something from someone who earned it in order to by something for yourself. Neither is it charitable to rob Peter to pay Paul.

  48. Thank goodness the Chinese and Indian politicians have more sense than the US and Australian ones. If they had followed the nonsense there would be no hope for sanity.

  49. Thank heavens Senator Box[of rocks]er is leading the Cap and Trade effort in the Senate. Her muddled leadership can’t help but kill the bill.
    Reed Coray

  50. “EPA to declare CO2 a dangerous pollutant, regulate ghg emissions”
    If that occurs, it would take the heat off the Senate to pass Waxman-Markey, allow Obama a graceful way to back down on passing W-M, allow Obama to go to Copenhagen with something to show the US is taking action, and give more time before something irrevocable happens (because the EPA’s regulation would be tied up in the courts for years).

  51. @ J.Hansford (06:27:32) :
    We all have the right to ‘bare arms’, but few retain the right to ‘bear arms’.
    /pedanticism
    We in the UK don’t even get to join in the discussion, never mind having something as powerful as a vote when it comes to ‘green’ issues. With effect from today it is illegal to offer for sale a 100W incandescent light bulb in England. On this point the government (lower case ‘g’ intentional) simply rolled over and blindly accepted an EU diktat. They have done exactly the same with our power supplies. We are to lose a good proportion of our coal fired power power stations. Why? Because the EU says that they are “too polluting”. The wind and the tides are expected to make up the shortfall in energy production. Unfortunately for this daydream, a government-produced document gives lie to the CO2-free Utopia.
    “Over the next 10 years, one third of Britain’s power-generating capacity needs to be replaced with cleaner fuels. But last night the Conservatives said that Labour had refused to face up to the problem.
    The admission that Britain will face power-cuts is contained in a document that accompanied the Government’s Low Carbon Transition Plan, which was launched in July.
    Ed Miliband, the Energy and Climate Change Secretary, outlined the plan amid much fanfare.
    Under the plan, 40 per cent of the UK’s electricity will need to come from low-carbon energy sources including clean coal, nuclear and renewables.
    Accompanying the report is an appendix, only published online, which warns of power shortages. It details supplies and expected demand between now and 2030.
    It highlights the first short-fall in 2017. The “energy unserved” level reaches 3000 megawatt hours per year.
    That is the equivalent of the whole of the Nottingham area being without electricity for a day. ”
    Whole dismal article here:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/6118113/Britain-facing-blackouts-for-first-time-since-1970s.html
    It is happening to us here in the UK, right now. Please don’t let it happen to you in the US. Please use your vote to end this chilling scenario.

  52. Why should we screw up our economy, can’t we just look and see how this ‘tax and ration’ scheme has screwed up Europe’s?
    I hear the IPCC is now declaring themselves a science entity, instead of just another bureaucracy. Is that a difference without a distinction these days?

  53. Stephen Brown (13:18:05) : Don’t worry. Just tell the french to build several atomic power plants to sell you all the energy you need…A kind of inverted Waterloo!

  54. Nogw (11:25:31),
    There were a number of Spanish communist academicians who were paid large consultant fees to help write Ecuador’s new Constitution. My assumption is that there is a broader effort at play.
    Communism did not go away with the fall of the USSR, it only went into hiding in the universities, waiting to poison a new, ignorant generation. Socialism and Communism are compelling philosophies, especially among inexperienced, idealistic, impressionable youth (rebels without a clue).
    I believe that the current push toward the Left in the U.S. has legs. The activists seem to be content with winning over a portion of the country, almost exclusively the urban centers, universities and patrician liberal suburbs. Rather than dominating all, they will simply isolate those populations and individuals that they cannot influence, using “righteous” force where necessary.
    I have read leftist bloggers invoking the precedence of using the Armed Forces to enforce Civil Rights legislation and rulings to justify the future use of Obama’s proposed Civilian Defense Force to impose “Hope” and “Change” (meaning the people’s revolution). I don’t know as that is Obama’s idea, but it certainly is the idea of the core radicals.
    Outside the context of the Latin American 21st Century Socialism, Obama’s presidency would seem relatively innocuous, but I am a bit nervous, given what I have seen happen to the South and what I have seen Obama and the Democrats do so far. … and yes, I do sometimes see black helicopters flying around, but they are with the local National Guard.
    [Obligatory Cap and Trade content]
    AGW and Cap and Trade are used as McGuffins by the politicians to justify bigger government. They are not about to just drop it simply because it they been scientifically disproven. It is not about science anymore, if it ever was.

  55. “Nogw (11:29:07) :
    Roger Sowell (10:53:58) :
    IPCC= INTERNATIONAL PROGRESSIVE COMUNIST CONSPIRACY”
    Wrong. Inner Party Central Commitee.

  56. I’m British, and I tell you if Sarah Palin was president right now, it would really be interesting. All this carbon craziness and big government mania would be evaporating by the day and the economy could get on with the job of building a better tomorrow the natural free spirited way. It’s a shame she isn’t. She could be for the US what Ronald Reagan and Thatcher were when they stood up against the Soviet machine.

  57. @ Nogw (13:27:18)
    The French and Germans already own almost all of the UK’s generating capacity! Trying to get THEM to reach a ‘consensus’ about the rolling brown-outs coming soon is going to be fun to watch, but not to experience!

  58. Dan (07:56:46) :
    So seeing how Climate Change has morphed to Health Care change, and the dreaded socialistic takeover of the world, I take it those opposed to “socialized medicine” are
    1. Too young for Medicare or
    2. Too rich for Medicaid or
    3. Have rejected participation in Medicare and Medicaid (and their pinko counterparts everywhere) on matters of principal and in efort to save the world.
    A show of hands please-who posting has rejected their eligibility

    Uhh, how about 4. Experience has taught me that government doesn’t solve problems, it creates them.
    Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
    Thomas Paine

  59. A search on the BBC website for “Senate cap and trade” produced virtually nothing relevant to the above article. There’s the good old BBC for you: unbiased to the very core, except when it might involve reporting something that it not exactly going swimmingly for President Obama. Just before Obama’s inauguration the BBC had an edition of its programme “Any Questions” produced in Washington. The panel for this programme is supposed to be balanced but every single person on the panel (all US citizens) was anti-Bush and pro-Obama.
    In that other BBC no-go area for balanced reporting it has a page called “Climate Scepticism: The Top Ten”.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/629/629/7074601.stm
    This has a list of ten sceptical arguments and a (usually) longer ‘reply’ from a global warming perspective. At the bottom it says that the page was compiled with advice from Fred Singer and Gavin Schmidt. Could someone produce a list of replies to the ‘replies’?

  60. Nogw (13:27:18) — Exactly.
    I had (on another site) a writer from Czech Republic tell me that his country sells nuclear power for 1.5 cents per kWh.
    I invited him to replicate those plants by the hundreds, and solve the world’s energy problems by exporting power across Europe and Asia — but only at a price of 1.5 cents per kWh.
    Never heard back from him…I wonder why…

  61. Re: Pamela Gray (06:43:17) :
    “Lets be clear, it is a cartel just as bent on destruction as the drug cartels are that continues to be the central issue….. If Obama truly wants prosperity for his country and the world, he needs to take it to the oil cartel.”
    I’m afraid you have bought into a popular myth. The only power the “oil cartels” have to control the price of oil is through the manipulation of supply. The history of their performance in that regard is pretty shaky. Some 80% of all proven oil reserves in the world are owned and controlled by governments. Although those producers periodically get together to “set” the desired price of oil, the only producer that typically actually follows through to restrict production is the Saudis. The agreed upon restrictions are generally ineffective because the other producers such as Venezuela typically open up the spigots as soon as oil prices increase.
    The thing that has dominated oil prices for the past ten years is commodity speculation. Most oil is sold into the futures market in advance of actual delivery. Since 1998, we have seen a total disconnect between the fundamentals of supply-and-demand and actual oil pricing. A year or so back, we saw $150 oil at a time fundamentals pointed to no more than $70. After the recession drove the price down to $35, which was a fundamentally sound price, oil marched back up to $70 while tankers circled the consuming world’s ports because there was no storage capacity left on land to dump the stuff and consumption continued to plummet.
    How did that happen? It certainly was not the cartels restricting production. It happened because the U.S. Congress had, in 1998, deleted a restriction that had been in place since 1939 which limited the participation of “price insensitive” players in the oil futures market. “Price insensitive” players are those who never touch the oil. They are neither producers not consumers. They are purely speculators. Let too many of them into the market and they gain the ability to “move” the market. When Goldman Sacks and the big U.S. hedge funds advise their clients to “go long” on oil, the price increase becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because those investors proceed to bid up the price with wild abandon.
    The solution to volatile oil prices is very simple and Congress knows it; simply re-institute the trading restriction in effect from 1939 to 1998.
    Claude Harvey

  62. Roger Knights (13:03:17) :
    “EPA to declare CO2 a dangerous pollutant, regulate ghg emissions”
    “If that occurs, it would take the heat off the Senate to pass Waxman-Markey, allow Obama a graceful way to back down on passing W-M, allow Obama to go to Copenhagen with something to show the US is taking action, and give more time before something irrevocable happens (because the EPA’s regulation would be tied up in the courts for years)”.
    Robert, you are wrong.
    Obama uses EPA to blackmail the Senate into the Waxman Bill.
    The climate bill has to be defeated in the Senate and the EPA plans must be fought in US Court.

  63. janama (14:06:03) :
    “Jimmy Haigh – sorry you missed the sarcasm.”
    Oh dear! You got me there! (Have you been talking to them?…)

  64. So Obama’s switching to health care? Just saw an interesting little U-tube on the US autism epidemic and the Thimerosal cover-up, where the state of medical science was likened to the state of global warming science (so it’s common knowledge – good!) I also hear someone is pressing for compulsory vaccination somewhere.
    Put all those together and IMO we have another scandal the size of the Climate Cult scandal. One in about 150 American children are autistic since the quantity of Thimerosal-spiked vaccinations went up; one in about 6 have related disorders like ADHD, Asperger Syndrome, etc. All for the sake of a few rich folk marketing the mercury compound that should have rung warning bells right from the start, what with Mad Hatter syndrome and the effects around gold mining towns.
    I know because I used to be Asperger’s and like all good Aspies, I did my research thoroughly.

  65. I was in Switzerland about 20 years ago and it was the law back then that you had to turn off your car engine at all stop lights. A bureaucrat had “modeled?” that you used less gas to restart the engine than you would if you idled for even short stops of at least 10 seconds. It got me thinking that we should get that implemented in the USA right away and in fact all cars should have an automatic shutoff whenever they come to a stop.
    How else can we imagine how the Waxman Markey legislation can be used to make our world a truly greener place.The use of any incandescent or halogen light source will already soon be outlawed, but let’s go further. The feds should commission studies to demonstrate that the hot cycle on your washer is unnecessary and that the max temperature setting on your hot water heater only needs to be 90 degrees.
    Anything but hand lawn mowers would be banned. Think of the new landscaping job opportunities that would create for all the ex employees of the steel, auto and energy industries.
    Log and gas fireplaces would be banned and replaced with red and orange painted plastic logs. Thermostats in houses would be required to cycle down to 65 degrees during the evening and air conditioning units would be controlled via wireless commands under control of the local authorities. In order to manage peak energy loads, authorities would schedule the production at energy intensive industries for off peak periods giving millions of people the opportunity to work “graveyard shifts”.
    The local carbon fee for a backyard barbeque permit would be minimal but the rental of the government licensed cooking device and operator would be excessive.
    Roots American music and folk street performers would experience a huge resurgence as the carbon costs to operate electronic music devices end up bankrupting the music industry and finally resolves the issue of payment for downloading music for free on the internet.
    The winner of the battle for who controls the internet does not turn out to be Microsoft, Google or Yahoo but rather its original inventor Al Gore. Everyone that has a sufficient carbon budget is guaranteed some time on the Government owned internet using the Algore designed “hockey stick” interface. Web surfing terminology gets replaced with “web skating” terms.
    Roads would all convert to toll ways with automatic fees deducted from your bank account. Rates would be higher during rush hours and anyone driving solo would be charged double the rate of those that car pool. After an initial surge in people sized cardboard cut-out sales, government authorities will just require that anyone owning or operating a car must obtain an implanted RFID chip to verify car occupancy rates.
    There would be a new renaissance in American boat building as all but biodegradable canoes and kayaks would be prohibited. General Motors would be forced to sell electric cars and any person that receives any Federal benefit whatsoever, including the permission to use a car would be required to buy one.
    Those that require air travel would be required to demonstrate that they will not exceed their annual carbon budget as a result of the flight. The government would of course be able to transfer carbon credits (at a huge additional cost) from those individuals that do not fly or who are home bound.
    Over fishing in the oceans surrounding the USA would resolved and fish populations would rebound as fishing vessels rust at the docks with captains and crews unable to afford the carbon credits required to run their engines.
    NASCAR would finally lose it’s appeal as tail-gating behind your electric powered go-cart in the infield and watching solar powered race cars speed around the track at impossible speeds of over 40mph would be replaced with visits to the velodrome to watch bikers circle the track at 40mph.
    Ice skating and cross country skiing would become huge recreational activities as well as one of the primary means of commuting to work as areas of the country experience much colder climates and much shorter growing seasons.
    It will continue to be illegal for any police agency to inquire about a person’s immigration status or require any person to have a form of picture ID, however, the DOE will have zero tolerance for individuals that do not have the proper carbon allowances to live or do business in the USA. Attempts to enter the US illegally will fall to zero and those still living in the USA illegally will eventually return to their more carbon friendly countries of origin.
    Problems with our health care system will cease to exist as all services will have a “carbon equivalent” that can be deducted from your yearly carbon allowance. Of course serious medical problems will require exponentially large sums of carbon credits that the government is happy to sell those in need….. up to a point. Eventually the old or sickly will “max out” their lifetime carbon allowances. Not to worry, there are no carbon credits required to visit the government owned “final pain resolution” centers.
    Of course any employee of the Federal Government would be exempted from these requirements. In fact agencies and elected officials would have the authority to grant all types of exemptions to any or all of the above for individuals, companies and organizations that demonstrate the proper attitude for the environment and a minimal campaign donation to the correct political party.
    One side benefit to the passage of the bill would be that the USA would be forever incapable of starting or fighting another war. The DOE would simply never allocate the Defense Department enough carbon credits to be capable of transporting troops overseas or operating ships or planes any distance from our shores. The world would finally be safe from Team USA. Of course terrorism on our shores would become impossible too. Those that mean to do us harm would never be issued the carbon credits necessary to enter the USA much less live here or attempt to do business.
    I cannot wait for the passage and implementation of the Waxman Markey energy bill. There is so much to look forward to and Polar Bears will finally be saved from drowning.
    Thanks
    William

  66. Roger Sowell (10:53:58) :
    (IPCC = incompetents predicting climate catastrophe)
    Nogw (11:29:07) :
    
IPCC= INTERNATIONAL PROGRESSIVE COMUNIST CONSPIRACY
    Aron (14:14:16) :
    Wrong. Inner Party Central Commitee.

    Nogw and Aron might be accurate, but Roger wins because his is funnier.
    /Mr Lynn


  67. William (16:28:08) :
    I was in Switzerland about 20 years ago and it was the law back then that you had to turn off your car engine at all stop lights. A bureaucrat had “modeled?” that you used less gas to restart the engine than you would if you idled for even short stops of at least 10 seconds. . .

    The bureaucrat forgot to include the extra wear on the engine from repeated starts (wait for a long light, and the oil will drain back to the sump). Funny thing about models: it’s easy to leave stuff out.
    William, I hope the chilling picture you paint in the rest of your post remains science-fiction. If not, I’m moving. . . to Mars, I guess.
    /Mr Lynn


  68. Andrew Parker (09:09:56) :
    Andrew Parker (13:31:46) :
    . . . Outside the context of the Latin American 21st Century Socialism, Obama’s presidency would seem relatively innocuous, but I am a bit nervous, given what I have seen happen to the South and what I have seen Obama and the Democrats do so far. … and yes, I do sometimes see black helicopters flying around, but they are with the local National Guard. . .

    Very interesting, if mostly OT, posts. I don’t think it is a coincidence that Obama and his dear friend William Ayers are fans of Hugo Chavez, Jose Ortega, et al. His consolidation of power in the hands of unconstitutional ‘czars’, most radicals of the left, is particularly worrisome, especially the extremist ideologues he has put in science positions. Now everything, even science, is politicized. Where have we seen that before? Could it have been in the land of the real Czars, later Commissars?
    /Mr Lynn

  69. @ William (16:28:08) : Scary funny story/scenario and perhaps not that farfetched, except for one thing. The part about the Defense Dept. Believe it or not there are serving and retired members (including high ranking officers ) who remain true to their oath of office. In case you aren’t familiar with it, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Uniformed_Services_Oath_of_Office ( Section 3331, Title 5, United States Code) .
    Note that this is not an oath to defend any specific territory or persons or property. This is an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States – Period.
    I will concede that a military solution to your scenario would be unpleasant, but it is not unthinkable. In the event it becomes necessary to defend the Constitution, there are those who will do so. That line has not been crossed yet.

  70. First of all I regard vaccination as one the greatest advances in medicine ever made and moreover one which still offers the potential of further enormous benefits for mankind. Vaccination eventually wiped out smallpox and the prospect is that we can wipe out many other great killers of mankind too.
    I think that a great good.
    And did you know there is a statue to Betsy the Cow from whom the cowpox vaccine was first cultured and bred by infecting other cows.
    All vaccines confer a degree, not necessarily perfect, of protection for a lifetime. Some need to be renewed regularly for maximum protection for the individual but as aforesaid a certain degree of immunity remains for life.
    And the younger the recipient the better, infants have incredibly strong immune systems so get as many vaccines in as early as possible and however their life may turn out they will always have some degree of immunity.
    True mercury is poisonous but not very, many people have it in their dental fillings. I am no fan of using it to preserve vaccines but there is not one single shred of evidence that connects the tiny dosage involved with any complications whatsoever.
    Very careful studies of the apparent rise in Autism and associated less severe conditions such as Aspergers show that this nothing to do wth any increased incidence in the population. Rather it has everything to do with improved diagnosis so that what would have been dismissed as mere behavioural problems thirty years ago now has a name.
    Again careful and extensive studies support this. There is no sudden increase in these problems in the general population, it is simply that it is better recognised than it was before. In short in this type of thing if you go looking for a problem you tend to find it: when previously it was largely ignored. And if you give a name then everybody can suffer from it if they choose.
    Just as they can suffer from Hysteria, Witchcraft or whatever may be fashionable at the moment. And given the American legal system that an be very profitable too, especially for the lawyers who are not above inventing diseases and winning huge damages for themselves and their clients, but chiefly for themselves. Remember the case against silicone breast implants?
    Which turned out to be harmless but not until vast damages had been obtained and Dow Corning bankrupted: and worst of all many women ended up having much more dangerous implants which probably did cause many serious problems until the scare was over. No damages for them though, not enough money in it.
    Kindest Regards.

  71. “William (16:28:08) :
    Thermostats in houses would be required to cycle down to 65 degrees during the evening and air conditioning units would be controlled via wireless commands under control of the local authorities.”
    Power companies in New Zealand can already do something similar with a special kind of meter, I don’t recall what they were called, but basically they can turn off, or reduce, your consumption for high drain items like ovens, cookers, water heaters and the like. All at a cost of course, bundled in your line charges.

  72. William (16:28:08) :
    I was in Switzerland about 20 years ago and it was the law back then that you had to turn off your car engine at all stop lights. A bureaucrat had “modeled?” that you used less gas to restart the engine than you would if you idled for even short stops of at least 10 seconds. It got me thinking that we should get that implemented in the USA right away and in fact all cars should have an automatic shutoff whenever they come to a stop.
    ….
    I cannot wait for the passage and implementation of the Waxman Markey energy bill. There is so much to look forward to and Polar Bears will finally be saved from drowning.
    Thanks
    William

    Inspiring – I wanted to capture all the many wonderful “Requirements” in your suggestion and to do it in a carbon free way. So I decided not to use an electricity gobbling computer and reverted to Pencil and Paper.
    I was than shocked and horrified to discover that both Pencil and Paper where largely composed of carbon and trace amounts of water.
    So with much regret I have abandoned the effort and now endeavour to “do nothing” to accumulate enough carbon credits to buy lunch…

  73. Mr Lynn (17:41:12) :
    “Nogw and Aron might be accurate, but Roger wins because his is funnier.”
    Thank you, sir. “I’ll be here all week.” (quote from a wonderful movie, A Knight’s Tale (2001) – Geoff Chaucer (played by Paul Bettany) after introducing his Knight (played by Heath Ledger) at a jousting tournament. )
    And, quoting Garrison Keillor, “Poke those sacred cows. Make them moo.” (for the foreign readers, Garrison Keillor is an American radio actor/producer/writer with a phenomenally popular show called A Prairie Home Companion, also writer of the Lake Wobegone series of books.)

  74. Let’s not forget Elsie the Cow and Mrs. O’Leary’s Cow.
    Most recently, Janice, the sarcastic California Happy Cow.

  75. That is as may be. Just remember Betsy the Cow has probably saved somewhere between 300 and 600 million human lives in the last 200 hundred years.
    Not bad for a cow.
    And how many are projected to die from AGW? In that mythical fantasy computer world of the IPCC.
    As against how many murdered from war, political ambition and social engineering? In the real world.
    I wonder.
    Kindest Regards

  76. Stephen Brown (13:18:05) :
    Sorry to hear that 100W and frosted bulbs are now illegal in Europe. I expect that the street lights will go next and the only people cheering will be the astronomers. Perhaps they are getting ready for the power cuts that will come with all that green energy.

  77. So seeing how Climate Change has morphed to Health Care change, and the dreaded socialistic takeover of the world, I take it those opposed to “socialized medicine” are
    1. Too young for Medicare or
    2. Too rich for Medicaid or
    3. Have rejected participation in Medicare and Medicaid (and their pinko counterparts everywhere) on matters of principal and in efort to save the world.
    A show of hands please-who posting has rejected their eligibility ?

    How about “don’t want to join a scheme that is going broke”?
    In other words: we guarantee your eligibility to a plan that will not be able to pay for your health care. Sign up at once before this golden opportunity passes you by. For a limited time only – no one will be refused.

  78. The Senate is wiselyrunning for cover on Wackman-Malarky, but the unelected bureaucrats in the EPA are still intent upon regulating carbon.
    True. But they have to hold hearings. Sometimes lots of hearings. Then they propose regulations. Then lots more hearings. Then it is Feb 2011 and the budget numbers for the EPA are not looking so hot.
    You don’t have to vote a bureaucracy out of business. You can just strangle it for funds. Keep approving last year’s budget while letting inflation take its toll.

  79. “William (16:28:08) :
    I was in Switzerland about 20 years ago and it was the law back then that you had to turn off your car engine at all stop lights.”
    Agreed, that was stupid, and more or less forgotten. But then the country has a functioning health care system, with private insurance companies only, and the people voted 70% to 30% against a public option.

  80. Roger Sowell (14:50:33) :
    “Nogw (13:27:18) — Exactly.
    I had (on another site) a writer from Czech Republic tell me that his country sells nuclear power for 1.5 cents per kWh.
    I invited him to replicate those plants by the hundreds, and solve the world’s energy problems by exporting power across Europe and Asia — but only at a price of 1.5 cents per kWh.
    Never heard back from him…I wonder why…”
    Maybe because your suggestion is stupid.
    Europe is small, the western part is AC-connected, and buying and selling of electricity is done every day. There are DC-cables between France and Britain, and Czech Republic and Austria, to do that. But it gets more difficult with distance.
    1.5 cents per kWh is very cheap; he might have erred in calculating that.

  81. Power companies in New Zealand can shut down domestic water heaters using a process called ‘ripple control’, but I don’t think they can control anything else short of cutting off the power. This was designed as a form of rationing power in times of shortage. Shortages are mainly caused by drought and mismanagement, because hydro is a major source of power in NZ. Indeed, the South Island is almost entirely powered by renewables, mainly hydro, but with increasing plans for wind. This works because the South Island is the same area as England and Wales, but, while they have 60 million people, we only have one million and a lot of water.
    The unlamented previous government had plans to ban incandescent bulbs and to ration the amount of water per shower, but those rather silly ideas were cancelled by what promised to be a more grown up new administration. Sadly, John Key’s centre-right government has totally dropped the ball on climate change. They now wish to seek a broad consensus with the failed leftists on emission control legislation and, apparently, are seeking a common approach with Rudd in Australia.
    This is an enormous disappointment to all who looked to them for leadership on this issue; instead we have seen a gutless capitulation – a betrayal, really. Fortunately, the farming community, who are somewhat influential, don’t believe a word of it. Nor do large numbers of voters.

  82. CZECH electricity: According to this
    http://xmldemo.hernler.com/pics/atomfrei/866/3/download_001.pdf
    the Czech Republic sold electricity for about 3 cents per kWh in 2002.
    Since the price has gone up because of privatisation and EU-rules, and they were accused of dumping in the 1990’s, and Temelin was highly controversial in Austria, a price of 1.5 cents seems possible.
    Among the exporters France leads with 68 billion kWh per year, CZ is 6th with 25, and the USA 8th with 20.

  83. Lucy Skywalker (16:18:52) :
    I know just what you mean. The deviousness is astounding. They keep saying they have no proof of leprechauns either. And yet we know that there is a huge leprechaun cover up going on precisely because there is no proof of it. See how devious things can get? How do I know a cover up is going on? Every one has heard of leprechaun. So much so that there is a word for them.
    I think every one who is afraid of vaccination should avoid getting them. Just to thin the herd. Given the relative magnitude of the problems: disease vs potential autism I know which risk I’d rather assume or impose on dependent minors.

  84. I hope that people understand the extent to which the future well being of this nation seems to rest on a thin thread being held by basically one man; Senator Inhofe of Oklahoma.
    Americans who care about this country’s future should make a point of keeping Senator Inhofe fully informed of their concerns about the pseudo science that is at the root of all this taxing madness; and in addition they need to keep their own legislators know that they will be buying a one way ticket to the streets, if they try to foist this foolishness onto the American taxpayers.
    As for committee chairman; Madam Barbara (bouncer) Boxer; who can’t even balance her own checkbook; California voters should send her packing; it would be nice if she went back to New York or wherever it was that she germinated.
    Thank you Senator Inhofe; you can be MY Senator; since I get no representation from the two dingalings that Californaia sent to Washington.

  85. “”” M. Simon (00:02:54) :
    So seeing how Climate Change has morphed to Health Care change, and the dreaded socialistic takeover of the world, I take it those opposed to “socialized medicine” are
    1. Too young for Medicare or
    2. Too rich for Medicaid or
    3. Have rejected participation in Medicare and Medicaid (and their pinko counterparts everywhere) on matters of principal and in efort to save the world.
    A show of hands please-who posting has rejected their eligibility ?
    How about “don’t want to join a scheme that is going broke”?
    In other words: we guarantee your eligibility to a plan that will not be able to pay for your health care. Sign up at once before this golden opportunity passes you by. For a limited time only – no one will be refused. “””
    My needs are very simple:- I’ll have what they are having.
    Let the Congress and administration come up with a socialized medicine plan for ALL US Government workers from the CIC, the Congress, and the Supremes, on down to all the Government Union workers, the Veterans administration, and the armed forces.
    So they can roll out that plan and be the guinea pigs that work out the bugs in the system, till they get it right. Then once they have it fixed to their liking, they can have open enrollment for US ordinary Americans to sign up for THEIR plan.
    George

  86. Ron de Haan (15:15:59) :
    Roger Knights (13:03:17) :
    “EPA to declare CO2 a dangerous pollutant, regulate ghg emissions”
    “If that occurs, it would take the heat off the Senate to pass Waxman-Markey, allow Obama a graceful way to back down on passing W-M, allow Obama to go to Copenhagen with something to show the US is taking action, and give more time before something irrevocable happens (because the EPA’s regulation would be tied up in the courts for years)”.
    Robert, you are wrong. Obama uses EPA to blackmail the Senate into the Waxman Bill.
    The climate bill has to be defeated in the Senate and the EPA plans must be fought in US Court.


    I’m not “Robert,” and you didn’t read the rest of my item carefully either. What I said was that “If that occurs”–i.e., if the EPA declares CO2 a pollutant–then “it would take the heat off the Senate to pass Waxman-Markey, [etc].” And it would.

  87. Re: Roger Knights (13:03:17) :
    “EPA to declare CO2 a dangerous pollutant, regulate ghg emissions”
    “If that occurs, it would take the heat off the Senate to pass Waxman-Markey, allow Obama a graceful way to back down on passing W-M, allow Obama to go to Copenhagen with something to show the US is taking action, and give more time before something irrevocable happens (because the EPA’s regulation would be tied up in the courts for years)”.
    Obama has openly threatened EPA rule-making to drive the legislation he desires. That threat only has value to strong-arm legislators so long as it is not implemented. Once implemented, the heat is off the legislators. Taking on the EPA in court over carbon restrictions, if the legislators balk and it comes to that, will be an uphill fight. The critical battle was already lost when the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that CO2 was subject to EPA regulation. Getting that one reversed will “take some doing”.
    On the bright side, by the time the issue is revisited by the Court, I expect those justices to be shivering in their long-Johns under those black robes and that may sway their judgment a bit. However, getting an injunction to delay EPA implementation in the meantime may not be possible.
    CH

  88. For all of you that may have dismissed some of what I wrote as “fantasy” please find the following:
    The Wall Street Journal (Editorial), 9/3/09
    Cap and trade may be flopping around like a dying fish in Congress, but the Obama Administration isn’t about to let the annoyance of democratic consent interfere with its climate ambitions.
    The White House is currently reviewing the Environmental Protection Agency’s April “endangerment finding” that as a matter of law CO2 is a pollutant that threatens the public’s health and must therefore be subject to regulation under the Clean Air Act. Such a rulemaking would let the EPA impose the ossified command-and-control regulatory approach of the 1970s across the entire economy, even if Democrats never get around to passing a cap-and-tax bill.
    Because the act was never written to apply to today’s climate neuroses, clean-air regulation is based on an extremely low threshold for CO2 emissions that will automatically transfer hundreds of thousands of businesses into the EPA’s ambit. The agency is required to regulate sources that emit more than 250 tons of a given air pollutant annually, which may be reasonable for conventional pollutants like NOX or SOX.
    But this is a very low limit for ubiquitous CO2, and so would capture schools, hospitals, farms, malls, restaurants, large office buildings and many others. To exempt these sources, the tailoring rule unilaterally boosts the rule for greenhouse gases from 250 tons to 25,000 tons, an increase of two orders of magnitude.
    Well, well. In a speech in February, Obama EPA Administrator Lisa Jackson ridiculed those of us who warned about these consequences, saying that it was “a myth” that “EPA will regulate cows, Dunkin’ Donuts, Pizza Hut, your lawnmower and baby bottles. . . . Somebody said to me today, ‘kittens,’ I like that one.” Her routine got a big laugh from the like-minded Georgetown audience, but the new draft rule is a flat-out admission that the critics are right.
    The Supreme Court said nothing that would let the EPA simply decide on its own to apply the law to some unfavored business while giving others a pass. And the Clean Air Act is explicit about the 250-ton threshold. Team Obama’s real motive in “tailoring” this rule is to limit the immediate economic impact of carbon limits to head off a political backlash.
    But even businesses that do get a pass shouldn’t rest too easily. The green lobby will quickly sue to force the EPA to enforce fully its own rules and go after all carbon sources. And why not? The Obama Administration is deliberately flouting its own legal claims for political reasons. Its cynical political hope is that if Congress won’t impose cap and tax, the courts will do it anyway.
    Start looking for a hand pushed lawn mower and get ready to scrap your barbeque grills!
    Thanks
    William

  89. Przemysław Pawełczyk (07:59:31) :
    >>Merrick (06:37:19) :
    >>Przemysław Pawełczyk (01:55:39) :
    >>“BTW A word to moderator. If you play politics, let it be played to the end.”
    >>Please, no lectures on politics. You’re not a victim. Get over it.
    >>Believe me, I will be a victim too. You are short sighted. Probably you look >>on Mr Inhofe from voters’
    No. I simply accept the fact that I’m an adult and just because someone has a different opinion that me, particularly regarding politics or the environment, doesn’t make me a “victim.” There’s no “too” involved here. I’m NOT a victim.
    >>Apropos my “BTW”. I was afraid my comment would be not approved >>hence my remark to moderator. Did I do something wrong?
    Once again showing your aparent propensity to see your self as a victim. No moderator *here* (unlike at many of the pro-AGW sites) has ever failed to post a comment simply because they didn’t agree with it or thought it was out of place. Over-the-top ad hominem, vicious attacks, etc. do get moderated out – and thank you moderators!

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