As many WUWT readers know, Steve McIntyre’s tireless quest to get the raw data that makes up the gridded Hadley Climate Research Unit HadCRUT dataset has been fraught with delays, FOI denials, and obvious obfuscation. In some cases the “dog ate my homework” is the excuse. The UK Register has an excellent summary of the issue.
A similar issue has been brewing in parallel over tree ring data in the UK. Doug Keenan tells us the story of getting the “ring around” for over 2 years trying to obtain what many would consider a simple and non controversial data request. – Anthony
Guest Post by Doug Keenan

Queen’s University Belfast is a public body in the United Kingdom. As such, it is required to make certain information available under the UK Freedom of Information Act. The university holds some information about tree rings (which is important in climate studies and in archaeology). Following discusses my attempt to obtain that information, using the Act.
When a tree is cut, you can often see many concentric rings. Typically, there is one ring for each year during which the tree grew. Some rings will be thick: those indicate years in which the environment was good for the tree. Other rings will be thin: those indicate the opposite.
Scientists study tree rings for two main purposes. One purpose is to learn something about what the climate was like many years ago. For instance, if many trees in a region had thick rings in some particular years, then climatic conditions in those years were presumably good (e.g. warm and with lots of rain); tree rings have been used in this way to learn about the climate centuries ago. The other purpose in studying tree rings is to date artefacts found in archaeological contexts; for an example, see here.
Tree-ring data from Northern Ireland
One of the world’s leading centers for tree-ring work is at Queen’s University Belfast (QUB), in Northern Ireland. The tree-ring data that QUB has gathered is valuable for studying the global climate during the past 7000 years: for a brief explanation of this, see here.
Most of the tree-ring data held by QUB was gathered decades ago; yet it has never been published. There is a standard place on the internet to publish such data: the International Tree-Ring Data Bank (ITRDB), which currently holds tree-ring data from over 1500 sites around the world. QUB refuses to publish or otherwise release most of its data, though. So I have tried to obtain the data by applying under the UK Freedom of Information Act (FoI Act).
I have submitted three separate requests for the data. Each request described the data in a different way, in an attempt to avoid nit-picking objections. All three requests were for the data in electronic form, e.g. placed on the internet or sent as an e-mail attachment. The first request was submitted in April 2007.
QUB refused the first request in May 2007. I appealed the refusal to a Pro-Vice-Chancellor of QUB, who rejected the appeal. The primary reason that the Pro-Vice-Chancellor gave for rejection was that some of the data was in paper form and had not been converted to electronic form. The Pro-Vice-Chancellor additionally claimed that after data was converted to electronic form, “It is then uploaded to the International Tree Ring Data Base”. There might indeed be some small portion of the data that is not in electronic form. My request, though, was for a copy of the data that is in electronic form. So, is all data that is in electronic form available at the ITRDB, as the Pro-Vice-Chancellor claimed?
QUB has in the past published the results of various analyses of its tree-ring data (most notably its claim to have sequences of overlapping tree rings extending back in time many millennia). In doing the analyses, the sequences of tree-ring data are analyzed statistically, and the statistical computations are done by computer. This is well known, and moreover has been stated by QUB’s former head tree-ring researcher, Michael G.L. Baillie, in several his publications. (Indeed, Baillie and his colleague Jon R. Pilcher, also at QUB, wrote a widely-used computer program for tree-ring matching, CROS.) Obviously the data that was used for those computations is in electronic form—and it has not been uploaded to the ITRDB. Thus the claim by the Pro-Vice-Chancellor is untrue.
The Pro-Vice-Chancellor further claimed that to organize the data in “the very precise categories which [I] have specified” [in my request] would entail a vast amount of work. My request, though, was merely for the tree-ring data that had been obtained and used by the university; that hardly seems like precise categorization. Moreover, I later submitted a second request for “the data about tree rings that has been obtained by [QUB] and that is held in electronic form by the university”. That request was also refused. And a third request that was very similar to the second was refused. All three requests were refused in whole, even though the university is required to make partial fulfillment when that is practicable.
The UK Information Commissioner’s Office
After half a year of trying to obtain the information from QUB, I appealed to the Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO). The ICO is charged with ensuring that the FoI Act is enforced. My appeal to the ICO was submitted on 24 October 2007. The ICO notified me that an officer had been assigned to begin investigating my case on 14 October 2008. Such a long delay is clearly incompatible with effective working of the Act.
The ICO then contacted QUB, asking for further information. QUB then admitted that almost all the data was stored in electronic form. Thus QUB implicitly admitted that its prior claims were untruthful.
QUB now asserted, however, that the data was on 150 separate disks and that it would take 100 hours to copy those disks. (These were floppy disks—the type that slide into computers and, prior to the internet, were commonly used to carry electronic data.) It takes only a minute or two to copy a floppy disk, however; so the claim of 100 hours to copy 150 floppy disks is an unrealistic exaggeration.
QUB also said that it considered photocopying a printed version of the data, but that this would take over 1800 hours. As noted above, all my requests were for data that is in electronic form; moreover, I have repeated this point in subsequent correspondences with QUB. The statement from QUB about photocopying is thus not relevant.
On 22 December 2008, the ICO sent me a letter rejecting my appeal, on the grounds that the time needed by QUB would exceed an “appropriate limit” (as stipulated in the FoI Act). The ICO had accepted QUB’s explanation for refusing to release the data without question, and without discussing the explanation with me. I telephoned the ICO to raise some objections. To each objection that I raised, the ICO case officer gave the same reply: “I’m satisfied with their [QUB’s] explanation”.
I also offered to visit QUB with the case officer, to demonstrate how quickly the data could be copied (e.g. from floppy disks), and to copy the data myself. This seemed particularly appropriate because the officer had told me when she started on the case that she would visit QUB as a standard part of investigation, yet she had not made such a visit. The officer, though, declined my offer, again saying that she was satisfied with QUB’s explanation.
There is a mechanism to appeal an ICO decision, to a tribunal. I told the case officer that I wanted to do so. The officer replied that, in order to file an appeal, I would need a formal Decision Notice from the ICO. I requested a Decision Notice. The officer then informed me that the ICO would send a Notice, but that, because they were busy, it would take about two years to do so.
Environmental Information Regulations
I discussed the above with a colleague, David Holland. Holland said that my request should not have been processed under the FoI Act. His reasoning was that the information I was requesting was about the environment: environmental information is exempt from the FoI Act and requests for such information should instead be processed under the Environmental Information Regulations (EIR). He pointed out that the tree-ring data clearly fits the definition of “environmental information” given in the EIR. It also clearly fits the common (dictionary) definition.
I had been aware that the EIR existed, but had assumed that the EIR was essentially the same as the FoI Act. After the discussion with Holland, though, I checked and found that there is one major difference between the EIR and the FoI Act: under the EIR, there is no limit on the amount of time that a public institution requires to process a request. In other words, even if QUB’s original claim that some of the data was only available on paper were true, or even if QUB’s revised claim that copying data from disks would take 100 hours were true, that would still not be a valid reason for refusing to supply the information.
I am not an expert in how to apply the EIR or FoI Act, though. So I telephoned the ICO headquarters to ask for guidance. There I spoke with a Customer Service Advisor, Mike Chamberlain. Chamberlain told me the following: that the information seemed obviously environmental; that there was no limit on processing time that could be used to refuse a request for environmental information; that I could freely visit a site where environmental information was held in order to examine the information; and that it was the duty of the public authority (i.e. QUB) to determine whether the EIR or the FoI Act was applicable. Chamberlain also confirmed everything that he told me with someone more senior at the ICO.
It is regrettable that I had not realized the above earlier. My initial request to QUB, in April 2007, had stated the following.
It might be that this request is exempt from the FOIAct, because the data being requested is environmental information. If you believe that to be so, process my request under the Environmental Information Regulations.
QUB, however, had not processed my application correctly. I should have caught that.
There is another issue. I had described the information to the ICO case officer by telephone and also by e-mail (on 24 November 2008). Hence the case officer must have known that the information was environmental, and thus exempt under the FoI Act and only requestable under the EIR. Why did the ICO not act on that? On 29 January 2009, I e-mailed the case officer, citing the above-quoted statement from my request to QUB and saying “I would like to know the reasoning that led to my request being processed under the Freedom of Information Act, instead of EIR”. Initially, there was no reply.
The EIR was enacted pursuant to the Aarhus Convention, an international treaty on environmental information that the UK promoted, signed, and ratified. Failure to implement the EIR would constitute a failure by the UK to adhere to the Convention. So, a few weeks after e-mailing my question to the ICO, and with no reply, I contacted the Aarhus Convention Secretariat (ACS), at the United Nations in Geneva. The ACS has a mechanism whereby individuals can file a complaint against a country for breaching the Convention. I had an initial discussion with the ACS about this. That turned out to be unnecessary though. The Assistant Information Commissioner for Northern Ireland contacted me, on 10 March 2009: he was now handling my case and, moreover, he had visited QUB and seen some of the data.
On 22 April 2009, I received a telephone call from the Assistant Information Commissioner for Northern Ireland. The Assistant Commissioner said that he was preparing a Decision Notice for the case, and he made it clear that the Notice would hold that the data should be released under the EIR. The next I heard anything was on 13 July 2009, when it was announced that the Assistant Commissioner had been suspended. On 13 August 2009, I telephoned the ICO: I was told that a new officer would be assigned to the case within the next few days and that a draft Notice, which had been written by the Assistant Commissioner, was in the signatory process. I am presently awaiting further word.
Another example—Gothenburg University
I have previously been involved with obtaining tree-ring data from another institution: Gothenburg University, in Sweden. Sweden has a law that is similar to the UK’s Freedom of Information Act (the Swedish law is the Principle of Public Access). In 2004, Swedish courts ruled that the law applied to research data held by universities. In a famous case known as the “Gillberg affair”, a researcher at Gothenburg University refused to obey the law. As a result, both the researcher and the rector of the university were convicted of criminal malfeasance. (The researcher received a suspended sentence and a fine; the rector received a fine.)
Gothenburg University does substantial tree-ring research. On 10 April 2007, I requested their tree-ring data. The university’s lead tree-ring researcher repeatedly resisted, claiming that it would take weeks of his time, and that he was too busy to do it. On 22 April 2008, I sent a letter to the (new) rector of Gothenburg University, saying that if the data was not supplied, I would file complaints with both the Court and the Parliamentary Ombudsmen of Sweden. The next day, all the data was submitted to the ITRDB.
What transpired with Gothenburg University exemplifies the importance of laws on Freedom of Information for tree-ring data.
Motivations for withholding data
Some people have asked why QUB does not want to release the data. In fact, most tree-ring laboratories do not make their data available: it is not just QUB and Gothenburg that have been reluctant. The reason for this was elucidated by Peter M. Brown, in April 2007. At the time, Brown was president of the Tree-Ring Society, which is the main international organization for tree-ring researchers. Following is an excerpt (the full explanation is here).
… they ARE my data. Funding agencies pay me for my expertise, my imagination, and my insights to be able to make some advance in our understanding of how nature works, not for raw data sets. … It is the understanding and inferences supplied by the scientist that funding agencies are interested in, not her or his raw data.
In other words, even if the research and the researcher’s salary are fully paid for by the public—as is the case at QUB—the researcher still regards the data as his or her personal property.
There are only a few tree-ring laboratories where attitudes are different. One example is the University of St Andrews, in the UK. Almost all tree-ring data held by St Andrews is freely available in the ITRDB.
It is notable that QUB continues to withhold its data even though, in 2009, the tree-ring laboratory at QUB was effectively closed. The closure was primarily due to the lab lacking funds, which presumably resulted from having almost no research publications (i.e. the lab had not been producing anything; so funding agencies declined to support it). The dearth of publications occurred even though the lab has some extremely valuable data on what is arguably the world’s most important scientific topic—global warming (as outlined here). This problem arises because the QUB researchers do not have expertise to analyze the data themselves and they do not want to share their data with other researchers who do.
| Date | Sender | Summary (with link) |
| 2007-04-10 | DJK | My first request for the information held by QUB (sent by e-mail). |
| 2007-04-16 | QUB | Acknowledgement of request. |
| 2007-05-11 | QUB | E-mail saying that there will be a delay in responding to the request (which is required to be within 20 business days of my request), but that QUB would respond by May 18th. |
| 2007-05-21 | DJK | E-mail to the ICO, about the lack of response from QUB; Cc’d to QUB. |
| 2007-05-22 | QUB | First refusal of the request for information. |
| 2007-05-22 | QUB | E-mail with attached description of how to appeal the refusal (this was sent following a telephone call to QUB in which I noted that they are required to send me such). |
| 2007-05-23 | DJK | E-mail to the ICO, noting that QUB had responded. |
| 2007-05-24 | DJK | Appeal of the refusal, submitted to a Pro-Vice-Chancellor of QUB. |
| 2007-05-25 | QUB | Initial response to the appeal, saying that appeal to a Pro-Vice-Chancellor should be resorted to only if QUB’s Information Compliance Officer and I are unable to resolve things ourselves. |
| 2007-06-02 | ICO | Acknowledgement of my prior e-mails, correctly noting that the ICO should not act at this time. |
| 2007-06-21 | QUB | Second refusal of the request for information. |
| 2007-07-13 | DJK | Appeal, submitted to a Pro-Vice-Chancellor of QUB. |
| 2007-07-26 | QUB | Notification that a response to my appeal to a Pro-Vice-Chancellor will be delayed until the second half of August. |
| 2007-08-15 | QUB | E-mail from a Pro-Vice-Chancellor, saying that a response to my appeal will be sent by September 30th (i.e. about seven weeks after the four-week limit). |
| 2007-09-28 | QUB | Rejection of my appeal by a Pro-Vice-Chancellor. |
| 2007-10-24 | DJK | Appeal to the ICO. |
| 2007-11-27 | ICO | Acknowledgement of appeal, saying that it might be several months before I hear from the ICO again. |
| 2008-05-15 | DJK | Second request for the information held by QUB. |
| 2008-05-15 | DJK | Third request for the information held by QUB. |
| 2008-06-12 | QUB | Rejection of my second and third requests, by the Head of the Registrar’s Office. |
| 2008-06-19 | DJK | E-mailed reply to the Head of the Registrar’s Office at QUB. |
| 2008-07-01 | QUB | Acknowledgement of my last e-mail, by the Head of the Registrar’s Office. |
| 2008-07-15 | DJK | E-mail to the ICO, notifying them of the rejected second and third requests for the information. |
| 2008-10-14 | ICO | E-mail notifying me that an officer has been assigned to my case and asking me to confirm that I would like to proceed. |
| 2008-10-15 | DJK | E-mail to the ICO, confirming that I would like to proceed. |
| 2008-11-24 | DJK | E-mail to the ICO, briefly synopsizing how tree-ring dating works (this followed a telephone call, in which the case officer had said that might be helpful). |
| 2008-11-24 | ICO | Acknowledgement of my last e-mail and notice that QUB’s response had been slightly delayed. |
| 2008-12-22 | ICO | Rejection of appeal. |
| 2009-01-21 | DJK | E-mail summarizing telephone call with the ICO; during the call I was informed that it would take roughly two years for the ICO to issue a Decision Notice on the case. |
| 2009-01-21 | ICO | Letter acknowledging my request for a Decision Notice (this was sent 43 minutes after my last e-mail, and its content appears to be independent of that). |
| 2009-01-29 | DJK | E-mail to the ICO, asking why my requests for information had been processed under the FoI Act, instead of the EIR. |
| 2009-03-02 | DJK | E-mail to the ACS, alleging a breach of the Aarhus Convention by the United Kingdom. |
| 2009-03-10 | ACS | Reply from the ACS Legal Support Officer, concluding that the evidence substantiating the allegation is sufficient for the ACS to proceed with a review. |
| 2009-03-10 | ICO | E-mail from the Assistant Information Commissioner for Northern Ireland, saying that he was handling the case and he had visited QUB (this was concomitant with a telephone call, which elaborated). |
| 2009-03-11 | DJK | E-mail to the ACS, saying that the ICO was now progressing things, and so my allegation was unnecessary. |
| 2009-03-11 | ACS | Acknowledgement of prior e-mail. |
| 2009-03-25 | ICO | E-mail from the Assistant Information Commissioner, saying that he was continuing with work on the case and would contact me again after Easter. |
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Ralp Ellis (00:19:59),
“Surely it would be relatively simple to check modern tree rings against local climate (and world climate) to see what the best growth and retardation factors really are. Has anyone done this?”
Check out Climate Audit and look for information on the ‘Divergence Problem’ and ‘Keith Briffa’.
Basically tree ring widths declined in the latter part of the 20thC whilst temperatures were increasing. So people like Briffa have postulated that there is some ‘unknown’ human caused mechanism that has had this effect so they ignore recent history! Unbelievable.
.
If those data are really valuable and only available on floppy discs QUB should certainly be forced to copy them, and soon, because in another few years they will probably be irrecoverable. If the floppies have been improperly stored they may already be unreadable (is this what they are trying to hide, one wonders?)
And anna v, I must say that particle physicists seem to have rather strange ideas about how to handle their data compared to other disciplines. In paleontology for example the original finder of a specimen of course has first crack at publishing it, but once published it *must* be properly identified and placed in a collection where it is available to other scientists. This rule has been increasingly strongly enforced in recent years, to a point where most reputable journals simply refuse to publish papers that do not conform to the rules.
Lindsay H (02:38:58) “[…] in a way which challanges the existing political agenda within the university would also be fought to the bitter end.”
Innovation is resisted on principle.
Priority 1 is convenience.
The university administrator’s preferred tactic:
Build in delays.
The appearance of thorny issues secures the value of crusty university administrators.
Lengthy disputes (of this nature) help the university draw in funding.
Claude Harvey : (9:54:27)
Was your project willing to hire union workers ?
Don S. (11:59:23) :
@dorlomin “what does the Magna Carta have to do with Freedom of Information act (2000)”
I think of the Magna Carta as the first year growth ring in the massive tree that is English Common Law.
———————————————
You wot?
Is this a joke I am not getting? Common law predates the Conquerer (1066 and all that). Magna Carta is an Americanism, it was pushed to being something special during the revolution (in America) to justify their ‘ancient’ rights. In terms of the development of the real English historical law it was little more than one among many punctuation marks. It is normally invoked with Haebus Corpus but even that is a pretty gross misrepresentation of history.
Dont mix metaphors. Tree rings dont need to be confused with the mess of English law, no matter how messy climate science is.
Phillip Bratby (02:21:52) :
I’m sure Christopher Booker will be on the case of all the UK-taxpayer-funded institutions/organisations withholding data and obfuscating (delaying, lying, whatever other practices they employ).
—————————————-
[snip – not relevant to this thread, don’t mention religious issues again]
INGSOC (22:54:59) :
I am reminded of the scene in the Terry Gilliam film “Brazil” involving the heating repairmen.
Thank you for this moment of deserved comeuppance.
Don S,
Forget Magna Carta and even the 1689 Bill of Rights — our governments pissed on their spirit, wiped their arses with them and flushed them down the pan long, long ago. In fact they’ve been meaningless for centuries. They certainly didn’t do the Americans any good, did they?
No, I think we need something a little more ……. well, in a word ……. robust.
Someone once wrote:
“… all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed….”
I think the evils of the dictator classes in this country (one could hardly dignify them with the labels of ‘government‘, ‘parliamentarians‘ or ‘legislators‘) are now pretty much insufferable and that people are close to the point at which they are no longer disposed to put up with them and certainly not the evil doers themselves.
Now. That writer also had a plan to rectify things. And better yet, it worked. I have a sneaking suspicion you might be familiar with it. 😉
Either way, it’s what we need in the UK now. As far as I’m concerned the sooner we adapt it to our current circumstances and put it into effect the better. Yes, it is now time for us to to effect our own safety and happiness. Let me add that I think any scruples we might have about how we should go about the task ought to be ditched right now. They’d only be an impediment. In particular, the cruel and unusuals should not only not be avoided they should be positively encouraged while the score is being settled. Amen.
Response to:
P Walker (17:09:04) :
Claude Harvey : (9:54:27)
Was your project willing to hire union workers ?
Interesting question. No it was not. I paid union-scale wages and benefits, but none of my employees or contractors were unionized.
Claude Harvey
Let me take another angle on this “rights on raw data”.
It is evident from the discussion that different disciplines have different codes of how to treat this.
In physics, the emphasis being on repeatability of experiments, data itself is not important, except if somebody has faked them. Another experiment with new and better data will prove/disprove the point.
The problem arises where the repeatability of the experiment is impossible, since it depends on a single specimen, or very difficult. It seems then that the individual disciplines have to develop a code of how to treat and store these data for future checks.
tty (12:22:50) : In paleontology for example the original finder of a specimen of course has first crack at publishing it, but once published it *must* be properly identified and placed in a collection where it is available to other scientists. This rule has been increasingly strongly enforced in recent years, to a point where most reputable journals simply refuse to publish papers that do not conform to the rules.
Paleontology seems to have done so.
Climate “science” is so new that it is in the painful process of doing so. This would not matter, they will find a way, if it were not for the politics attached to climate at the moment.
My opinion still is that for our society not to stagnate in technological development creativity in science has to be nurtured despite the apparent “waste” of resources on inconsequential subjects. This can only be done through public funding at present.
Roses bloom out of a lot of manure, and the army of scientists whose outputs gather dust in the chronicles of science have provided the fertilizer necessary to get a few people with the out of the box thinking that is necessary for real advances in science.
NI Researcher (06:24:59) :
“I suspect that the actual ‘what is going on’ is far from an attempt to withhold information for protectionist reasons but is more procedural and cost-related.”
All Keenan seems to be asking for is a copy of the floppy disks. There is no precedural or cost-related excuse. There is no excuse at all. And the university is clearly trying to avoid the law.
Re: dorlomin (17:56:50) :
I don’t think so. The Magna Carta predates the American revolution by over 500 years. It laid out certain basic rights for freemen including the right to due process. Hence its association with Habeas Corpus. There is nothing “American” about it.
>>>We have temperature records to 1660 from thermometers.
>>>We have diary observations from people such as Pepys and
>>>Thomas Jefferson.
>>>Records fropm the great landed estates. etc: etc:
And lets not forget the numerous Nile flood records, which go all the way back to the beginning of the 18th dynasty – 1550 BC (or more). They must tell us something about climate.
,
>>>There are no 7,000 year-old trees in Ireland.”
>>>Irish Bog Oak? 5000+ years.
>>>http://www.russianwolfstudios.com/Bog-Woods.php
You misconstrue my point.
What I meant is that there is no one tree that is 7,000 years old. You have to take many trees from many different eras, and join them into a chain reaching back 7,000 years. Each match (from tree to tree in the chain) is given a level of accuracy, and some of those scores were not that high – meaning there may be a mismatch.
.
>>>Here, we have 2000 year old trees, and not one but
>>>several species of them.
>>>Giant Sequoia, Giant Redwood and BristleCone Pine.
And in the UK we have the Fortingale Yew, which is thought to be some 5,000 years old. But its not too good for dedrochronology, as Yews don’t have a solid core.
http://image06.webshots.com/6/2/71/40/77627140EuZsGb_fs.jpg
.
simmering one (01:41:26) :
Suppose all the floppies containing the files aren’t in one box, clearly labelled.
Imagine one professor who has used students’ work for >20 years to build a database. Once each student’s work goes into the database, the lab books, files and floppies go in a box, no need to look at them again. They may be far from neat and require interpretation (when you started using a computer what was your file labelling system? how quickly now could you locate and identify a single file from 10 years ago?).
In this case there could be 20 years of data, going back to the 1970s. I’m guessing that this is more about having to find the individual files. If the whole single data sequence had been requested it might have been harder to refuse.
Choose any 10 professors whose work in a single area goes back this far, and ask them for 2000 individual files from >20 years ago. I reckon most would say this would take ages to collate and provide the data.
ralph ellis (03:21:30) :
And lets not forget the numerous Nile flood records, which go all the way back to the beginning of the 18th dynasty – 1550 BC (or more). They must tell us something about climate.
These were the inspiration for Benoit Mandelbrot to propose (1/f) noise in the climate system. If the system is dominated by (1/f) noise, the central limit theorem does not apply; and, then there are some interesting conclusions regarding things like “mean temperature.”
re: applicability of tree ring data to global climate. One of the most productive areas of research on tree ring data has to do with trees that sit within the path of the jet stream. That would mean that tree ring data obtained along the west coast of the US would hold absolutely invaluable information about PDO shifts. I am not as familiar with how the AMO/PDO works in terms of jet stream position (as the interplay between the two is complicated, giving rise to nor’easters and whatnot). I would imagine that it would be a productive study as well. So tree-ring data is not just a local climate entity.
re: owning raw data. I have been there done that. The research lab has the electronic data. I kept my original hard copies and have them still. It serves as a double check on the use of that data in subsequent publications (as you know, raw data can generate many, many papers over the course of many, many years). Some scientists develop a wise attitude towards the entity they work for (or have worked for in the past) and find it necessary to keep copies of raw data or even the originals for reasons I shall not explain here. It isn’t always about the individual scientists but about the research facility.
Kevin! I lurv fractals! We used to generate them on our lab computers over night as a precurser to screen savers. Whether or not it did any good I don’t know but it was fun coming into the lab in the mornings to find a new pretty picture.
It seems that the internet may have prompted researchers and labs to start charging for all their stuff, thus this notion that it can be privately “owned”. In the past, the only ones who read journals got to do so for free because they were available at the University library they attended. No one else bothered or cared. Now the public cares and wants to read what they produce and don’t want to travel to a University, get a card, and read the stuff there. So articles sit behind a paywall. But only to the general public. You can still go to a University (the closest one that has a substantial library on climate science is in Washington, 100’s of miles away from me) and read the stuff for free. Raw data is another think entirely but I think the current paywall for articles has prompted researchers to want to offer raw data for money as well.
Sandy (03:23:10) : From this one cross-section one can see a core taken at 12 O’clock, 4 and 8 would give 3 very different ‘climate histories’.
Look carefully. The “cross-section” is a cartoon, an artist’s rendering, a symbology rather than anything real. Whatever climate history it implies is strickly an artifact of art, not reality.
Which is telling. Reading tree rings for climate history is like reading tea leaves or chicken bones for foretelling the future. It is a misuse of the word “reading”. It is closer to ouija than science.
anna v (23:02:38) :
I tend to agree except for one point.
The tree ring data can never be exactly reproduced.
On long lived trees, rarely are the tree ring data taken by cutting down the tree, but from bores from the tree. This apparently came out when they took new bores from trees used in the original hockey stick. The new results were completely different, though I cannot recall where I read that.
In this kind of instance, where the original experiment may not be reproducible and the data was part of the paid for experiment; the data belongs to the paymaster.
DaveE.
Nature are blogging on this topic:
http://blogs.nature.com/news/thegreatbeyond/2009/08/climate_researcher_vs_foi_part.html
Watch your language ther mister !
I take a dim view of people shoing pictures like that tree ring section above, and then describing the rings as “concentric”.
A few minutes studying just these “Concnetric” tree rings will reveal that they are anything but concentric. And the growth conditions if that is what determines the ring thickness, evidently vary from radial to radial and over the years.
So on to anna v’s observation that tree ring data on long lived trees are normally obtained by core boring, rather than by slaughtering the entire tree.
So pick your favorite radial angle to core bore the ring sample above; what sort of scientific balderdash are you going to discover by core boring this tree. Might I suggest that the tree ring core boring community buy a good text book on the general theory of sampled data systems; and READ it.
Of course you are all familiar with the sad story (as detailed by National Geographic some years ago) of the recent graduate in Botany from some southern California University; (with a Masters Degree no less). So he decides to make his fame and fortune by finding an old tree; specifically a bristle cone pine in the White Mountains of the Nevada/California border.
So this new genius heads up the white mountaint to look for old looking bristlecone pines. He finally settles on a candidate, and proceeds to cut it down; and cut a section out of it, to lug all the way back down to SoCal, to the lab so he can count the rings. It was somewhere in the 4500 to 5000 years old; much older than anyone thought trees got to be.
So he proudly announced his new famous discovery to his colleagues; some of whom are horrified, and ask the chap if he has ever heard of core boring to sample the age of a tree, instead of murdering the tree.
So our hero hies back to the white mountains armed now with a core borer, and a blighted ego. He core bores bristle cone pines till he is blue in the face, and takes them back for study,
He never ever found another tree that came within 500 years of the age of the oldest tree on earth that he had cut down. The Nat Geo article had a picture of the forlorn stump of that old tree left as a monument to the stupidity of some people who call themselves scientists.
Yeah; tree rings are a great way to develop a proxy for temperature; if you kill enough of them; but how are you properly going to dsample them with the boring tool, without killing the tree or violating the Nyquist criterion.
Remember that trees have a height variable, as well as a radial angle variable; you’d have to bore more holes than a whole forest full of woodpeckers; just to sample one tree.
George