Pielke Sr. on warm bias in the surface temperature trend – "provides evidence of the significant error in the global surface temperature trend analyses of NCDC"

Up_trendNew Paper Documents A Warm Bias In The Calculation Of A Multi-Decadal Global Average Surface Temperature Trend – Klotzbach Et Al (2009)

Guest post by  — Roger Pielke Sr.

When I served on the committee that resulted in the CCSP (2006) report on reconciling the surface and tropospheric temperature trends, one of the issues I attempted to raise was a warm bias in the construction of long term surface temperature trends when near surface land minimum temperatures (and maximum temperatures when the atmospheric boundary layer remained stably stratified all day, such as in the high latitude winter) were used.  This error will occur even for pristine observing sites. Tom Karl and his close associates suppressed this perspective as I document in

Pielke Sr., Roger A., 2005: Public Comment on CCSP Report “Temperature Trends in the Lower Atmosphere: Steps for Understanding and Reconciling Differences“. 88 pp including appendices.

As a result of the poor treatment by Karl as Editor of the CCSP (2006) report, I decided to invesitgate this issue, and others, in a set of peer reviewed papers with colleagues which include

Pielke Sr., R.A., C. Davey, D. Niyogi, S. Fall, J. Steinweg-Woods, K. Hubbard, X. Lin, M. Cai, Y.-K. Lim, H. Li, J. Nielsen-Gammon, K. Gallo, R. Hale, R. Mahmood, S. Foster, R.T. McNider, and P. Blanken, 2007: Unresolved issues with the assessment of multi-decadal global land surface temperature trends. J. Geophys. Res., 112, D24S08, doi:10.1029/2006JD008229.

Pielke Sr., R.A., and T. Matsui, 2005: Should light wind and windy nights have the same temperature trends at individual levels even if the boundary layer averaged heat content change is the same?Geophys. Res. Letts., 32, No. 21, L21813, 10.1029/2005GL024407.

Lin, X., R.A. Pielke Sr., K.G. Hubbard, K.C. Crawford, M. A. Shafer, and T. Matsui, 2007:An examination of 1997-2007 surface layer temperature trends at two heights in Oklahoma. Geophys. Res. Letts., 34, L24705, doi:10.1029/2007GL031652.

Fall, S., D. Niyogi, A. Gluhovsky, R. A. Pielke Sr., E. Kalnay, and G. Rochon, 2009: Impacts of land use land cover on temperature trends over the continental United States: Assessment using the North American Regional Reanalysis.Int. J. Climatol., accepted

We now have a new paper accepted which documents further a warm bias in the use of multi-decadal global surface temperature trends to assess global warming.

It is

Klotzbach, P.J., R.A. Pielke Sr., R.A. Pielke Jr., J.R. Christy, and R.T. McNider, 2009: An alternative explanation for differential temperature trends at the surface and in the lower troposphere. J. Geophys. Res., in press.

Our paper is also effectively discussed in my son’s weblog

Evidence that Global Temperature Trends Have Been Overstated

The abstract of the Klotzbach et al (2009) paper reads

“This paper investigates surface and satellite temperature trends over the period from 1979-2008. Surface temperature datasets from the National Climate Data Center and the Hadley Center show larger trends over the 30-year period than the lower-tropospheric data from the University of Alabama-Huntsville and Remote Sensing Systems datasets. The differences between trends observed in the surface and lower tropospheric satellite datasets are statistically significant in most comparisons, with much greater differences over land areas than over ocean areas. These findings strongly suggest that there remain important inconsistencies between surface and satellite records.”

We tested the following two hypotheses:

1. If there is no warm bias in the surface temperature trends, then there should not be an increasing divergence with time between the tropospheric and surface temperature anomalies [Karl et al., 2006]. The difference between lower troposphere and surface anomalies should not be greater over land areas.

2. If there is no warm bias in the surface temperature trends then the divergence should not be larger for both maximum and minimum temperatures at high latitude land locations in the winter.

Both were falsified.

The paper has the following text

“We find that there have, in general, been larger linear trends in surface temperature datasets such as the NCDC and HadCRUTv3 surface datasets when compared with the UAH and RSS lower tropospheric datasets, especially over land areas. This variation in trends is also confirmed by the larger temperature anomalies that have been reported for near surface air temperatures (e.g., Zorita et al., 2008; Chase et al., 2006; 2008, Connolley, 2008). The differences between surface and satellite datasets tend to be largest over land areas, indicating that there may still be some contamination due to various aspects of land surface change, atmospheric aerosols and the tendency of shallow boundary layers to warm at a greater rate [Lin et al., 2007; Esau, 2008; Christy et al., 2009]. Trends in minimum temperatures in northern polar areas are statistically significantly greater than the trends in maximum temperatures over northern polar areas during the boreal winter months.

We conclude that the fact that trends in thermometer-estimated surface warming over land areas have been larger than trends in the lower troposphere estimated from satellites and radiosondes is most parsimoniously explained by the first possible explanation offered by Santer et al. [2000]. Specifically, the characteristics of the divergence across the datasets are strongly suggestive that it is an artifact resulting from the data quality of the surface, satellite and/or radiosonde observations. These findings indicate that the reconciliation of differences between surface and satellite datasets [Karl et al., 2006] has not yet occurred, and we have offered a suggested reason for the continuing lack of reconciliation.”

What our study shows is that maps prepared by NCDC, as given below, are biased presentations of the surface temperature anomalies.

BIASED NCDC MAP OF SURFACE TEMPERATURE ANOMALIES

While additional research is required in order to determine the magnitude of the bias, we can use the analysis of trends using two levels near the surface from the Lin et al (2007) paper as an estimate. I reported on this in my weblog

where I wrote

Back of the Envelope Estimate of Bias in Minimum Temperature Measurements

To present a preliminary estimate, lets start with the value reported for the recent trend in the global average surface temperature.  The 2007 IPCC Report presents a global average surface temperature increase of  about 0.2C per decade since 1990 (see their Figure SPM.3). Their trend is derived from the average of the maximum and minimum surface temperatures; i.e.,

T(average) = [T(max) + T(min)]/2.

“From our papers (Pielke and Matsui 2005 and Lin et al. 2007), a conservative estimate of the warm bias resulting from measuring the temperature near the ground is around 0.21 C per decade (with the nightime T(min) contributing a large part of this bias) . Since land covers about 29% of the Earth’s surface (see), the warm bias due to this influence explains about 30% of the IPCC estimate of global warming. In other words, consideration of the bias in temperature would reduce the IPCC trend to about 0.14 degrees C per decade, still a warming, but not as large as indicated by the IPCC.

This is likely an underestimate, of course, as the value is not weighted for the larger bias that must occur at higher latitudes in the winter when the boundary layer is stably stratified most of the time even in the “daytime” . Moreover, the warm bias over land in the high latitudes in the winter will be even larger than at lower latitudes, as the nightime surface layer of the atmosphere is typically more stably stratified than at lower latitudes, and this magnifies the bias in the assessment of temperature trends using surface and near surface measurements. [not coincidently, this is also where the largest warming is claimed; e.g., see the map on Andy Revkin’s Dot Earth’s weblog].

Land is also a higher fraction of the Earth’s surface at middle and higher latitudes in the northern hemisphere and at the highest latitudes in the southern hemisphere (see).”

Our new paper Klotzbach et al (2009) provides evidence of the significant error in the global surface temperature trend analyses of NCDC, and well of other centers such as GISS and CRU, due to the sampling of temperatures at just one level near the surface. It is also important to recognize that this is just one error of a number that are in the NCDC, GISS and CRU data sets, as we have summarized in our paper

Pielke Sr., R.A., C. Davey, D. Niyogi, S. Fall, J. Steinweg-Woods, K. Hubbard, X. Lin, M. Cai, Y.-K. Lim, H. Li, J. Nielsen-Gammon, K. Gallo, R. Hale, R. Mahmood, S. Foster, R.T. McNider, and P. Blanken, 2007:Unresolved issues with the assessment of multi-decadal global land surface temperature trends. J. Geophys. Res., 112, D24S08, doi:10.1029/2006JD008229.

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Mark T
August 14, 2009 1:52 pm

Leif got it by providing an opposite contradiction.
Mark

Evan Jones
Editor
August 14, 2009 1:52 pm

Given all the uncertainties and biases in the temperature record can anyone say with any certainty that this planet has actually warmed, or cooled, over the last 100 years?
I would be fairly certain it has warmed. But I doubt that it has warmed as much as the “adjusted” data indicates. And I doubt the IPCC projections indicating an fivefold increase in (adjusted) trend in the 21st century over the 20th century.

George E. Smith
August 14, 2009 2:04 pm

I may have that symmetry rule wrong up there [ f(t) = F(P-t) maybe there’s a minus sign there somewhere; and maybe the zero datum is the average value.
I’ll let you younger mathematicians sort it out; but it’s a simple consequence of a Fourier series expansion of a periodic function, and the fact that the integral of a sinusoidal function over an integral number of cycles is zero.
But I believe that any diurnal temperature cycle in practice has a rapid warming, and a slower cooling, so the max and min temperatures are not separated by 12 hours.
George

August 14, 2009 2:09 pm

Mark T (10:38:26) :
Roger A. Pielke Sr (08:57:39) :
It is for this reason that I aree with your point on ocean heat content, btw (disregarding the battle that has been raging in another thread regarding the use of the word heat as a noun, hehe.)

It was not a battle on the use of a word, but on the postmodernist corruption of scientific theories. Heat is not kinetic energy, but energy in transit, and it cannot be “stored” or “contained” by any system because it stops being heat as it is absorbed by the system; it becomes internal energy, which is not energy in transit.
Unfortunately, truth has been silenced in favor of solipsism.

Nogw
August 14, 2009 2:11 pm

It is quite exiting to know how nature works and what will be tomorrow’s weather or future climate, but boring and silly when science is settled in advance.

Nogw
August 14, 2009 2:15 pm

Mark T (13:52:14) :
Leif got it by providing an opposite contradiction.
Mark

So, we are sure now, he is not…or is he?

Robert Bateman
August 14, 2009 2:49 pm

Nogw (14:11:19) :
You know the climate prediction is settled in advance when the dealer at the climatechange table has 3 aces played out and you have two in your hand.
But I believe the public is catching on, and resorting to the time honored tradition of figuring out what’s really going on: Call all your relatives & friends in far-flung places and ask “How the weather?”.

Antonio San
August 14, 2009 3:01 pm

So in light of this paper, one better understands the stonewalling CRU and Phil Jones do. This suggests the HADCRUT record therefore must be at the source of many AR5 papers and discussions or papers in preparation for Copenhagen coming down the tube in journals such as Nature -who’s AGW bias is firmly known: the racist, defamatory Desmogblog gets a spot before climateaudit does in their list of references…- and the last thing they need is someone demoslishing their carefully crafted temperature record.
When the smoke will clear, I bet that the HADCRUT temperature record will implode and with it many model based papers, i.e. the majority of the global warming science.

E.M.Smith
Editor
August 14, 2009 3:39 pm

steven mosher (11:27:32) : EM. It would be cool to do a web interface so that people could select which type of sites they want to select for a gistemp run.
Yes, it would, but at present GIStemp can not accept a “subset” of the GHCN record. There is code that dies if the stations do not exactly match between GHCN and, IIRC, USHCN. I’m working on how best to remove this dependency so that I can run “what if” sets all the way end to end… but I got side tracked into saving the world by proving AGW is a GHCN thermometer artifact not a result of CO2 😉
But now that I’ve got that under control, I can go back to shining spot lights on the broken small bits in GIStemp 😎
Also, WRT long stations. Karl’s reference station method has always given me doubts.. its the method by which short stations are stitched together to give a long station record.
As I’ve pointed out before, the (varies by module – reference station method is done a couple of times in a row in the code…) 1000 km to 1500 km to 10 degree distance is just way too wide. Lodi is often inversely related to San Francisco for reasons of physics that will be common world wide (anywhere inland warming makes an onshore breeze cooling coastal sites).
I’ll probably do the “shut off reference station method” test before I get to the “run subsets of stations” code just because it’s easy (the distance is a parameter in the code – clear evidence for tuning in the past… So I can just set the distance to zero, or 1 if it demands a positive value)
Note: Hansen makes some arbitrary decisions on record lengths and overlaps etc. With GISTEMP running you can test the sensitivity of these
decisions. Remember, gavin is on record saying that all we need are 60 good stations for the WORLD.

Yup. It’s on my “todo” list. Right after buy cat food, water garden, pay bills, cook dinner, explain to spouse that I do still lover her but had to stay up to 4am to save the planet from Algore just for her, put new brake pads on the car, send money to son at college, figure out how to make money to replace what was sent to son and bills, put memory back in Win2k box to read MS Office docs sent to me, find out if g95 .92 release really does handle “endian” conversions and put it on box, and maybe even eat and sleep – time permitting of course 😉 Who knew being semi-retired could take so much time…
Hey, 60 is enough? Well then, my top 10% is WAY overkill!
BTW, Ellie in Belfast has sent me an excel doc with graphs of the top 10% and they show an interesting slow cooling to the data up to the last couple of decades (where thermometer cherry picking seems to pick up again as someone decided to start deleting thermometers from the series.) Kudo’s to Ellie! And I really do need to learn to do graphics better… right after fixing car brakes (they kind of matter…) I think.
so, select a screen.
1. Long uninterrupted record.
2. non airport
3. Rural ( by population and nightlights)

Um, I realized that the “top ten percent” stations, with a shortest life of 103 years, will automatically exclude airports. There were not a lot of airports in 1906 … I think it is also likely that a life span of 100+ years will have also selected for places that already had population 100 years ago. That is, I’d guess that Stockton had more UHI growth than San Franciso. SF was geography constrained some time ago when Stockton was mostly a cow town..
So while I think it would be “best” to do what you suggest, I think the “Top Ten Percent” of life span stations already reduce some of those issue.
A. Pielke Sr
I got the cc: email but my replies to you and the original sender bounce.
Your email service has filter rules that seem to be nuking @aol addresses.
At any rate, I can read email from you, but not reply at this time. I’ll work on getting a non-rejected email address, if you wish to hear from me via email.

Douglas DC
August 14, 2009 3:41 pm

As I cruised the Grande Ronde Valley of NE Oregon today,I noted the uncut wheat and
barley had a strange greyish cast to it-meaning possible mold issues.This is due to the cold rain that has possibly ruined or at best reduced the yield.The forecast is nibbling at normal next week then cooler…
I fear this warm bias may bite everyone soon. The people who call it now may end up being heroes-if we do something soon enough.-Like no food for fuel for starters…

August 14, 2009 3:44 pm

Nasif Nahle (14:09:35) :
Mark T (10:38:26) :
Roger A. Pielke Sr (08:57:39) :
“It is for this reason that I argee with your point on ocean heat content”
Unfortunately, truth has been silenced in favor of solipsism.

It would that people agreeing with other people’s position [e.g. about ‘ocean heat content’] is just the opposite of solipsism.

E.M.Smith
Editor
August 14, 2009 3:53 pm

TonyB (11:21:08) : E M Smith said: I can fairly easily produce the lists of station IDs by quartile, if anyone wants it. It would be fascinating to see if the warming pattern matches urban vs rural or airport vs non or a dozen other UHI related things.”
Yes please!

OK, right after “send money to son” ;-0
I’ll do it tonight. At 3000+ lines per quartile, it’s going to make a pretty bland blog page… Might be better on an FTP server. Anyone want to volunteer to run an FTP archive for a copy of “running GIStemp code”, porting / install docs, and selected analysis docs, like lists of stations by quartile? The data volume is very small for the source code and analysis results (it is the input files that are big – and they are on NOAA ftp sites already)
If not, it is just going to be a loooong weblog of 3000+ lines of 9 digit numbers… (or 13,000+ lines of 3 digit year count and 9 digit station id for the whole enchilada sorted by year length of record…)
E.M.Smith

astronmr20
August 14, 2009 4:11 pm

Somewhat O/T,
But my AGW friends are going on about this article, which does seem to show that a particular glacier is “thinning fast:”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8200680.stm
However, I’m not sure how this relates to antarctica as a whole. Anyone seen this? Thoughts?

August 14, 2009 4:16 pm

E M Smith (or anyone)
Noting your observation that longstanding records have little apparent bias problems – see all of John Daly’s longest continuous temperature records: Greenland: Godthaab from 1866, Ilulissat from 1860. Iceland Stykkisholmur 1841. Norway: Bodø 1868, Vardø 1840. Faeroes Thorshavn 1867. Russia Nikolayevsk 1856. Sweden Haparanda 1860. UK: CET 1659 (yes!), Plymouth 1865, SW Ireland 1869. Holland DeBilt 1706. Hungary Debrecen 1853. Gibraltar 1854. Malta 1853. USA: West Point (NY State) & NY CIty compared 1820, Eagle Pass (Texas) 1850, Laramie (Wyoming) 1868. Bahamas 1856. S Africa Capetown 1857. Australia: Adelaide 1857, Victoria 1865.
They are well worth assembling onto a single page, just to show the lack of AGW in one of the simplest and clearest ways possible. So it seems to me.
John Daly passed away some time after 2000, but this does not invalidate the above evidence. And I guess the records can be updated. What’s so nice with Daly’s work is that the graphs are easy on the eye – they don’t fluctuate so much that one cannot get a feel for cool and warm years – yet neither are they smoothed. Just good ole-fashioned simple straight records.

Gary Pearse
August 14, 2009 4:21 pm

Robert Bateman (13:10:16) :
Gary Pearse (12:52:23) :
I checked the full history of those DMI sidebar years.
2009 is threatening to walk away with the trophy
Pierre Gosselin (03:28:25) :
My comments above about the present uptick in arctic ice (Gary Pearse (12:52:23) : ) sounds even more likely with frost warnings over a broad area of Alberta this evening. This is probably a first for mid August since the LIA! They had frost on July 1st in the Edmondton Area (It was a WUWT thread) and if they get the frost being warned about, it will likely be the first year on record that there has been a frost in every month of the year (they won’t escape September without). Normal is 23C max and 12C min:
http://www.theweathernetwork.com/alerts/

E.M.Smith
Editor
August 14, 2009 4:49 pm

evanmjones (13:52:14) :Given all the uncertainties and biases in the temperature record can anyone say with any certainty that this planet has actually warmed, or cooled, over the last 100 years?
Well, I think the answer is both “yes” and “no”. And that is not just being cute.
The “TopTen%” stations show (h/t Ellie in Belfast – private communications, graphs) a slight drift to colder over the longer term, but with a “ripple” of minor warming / cooling cycles. (It really would be nice to have Ellie’s graph up here as a posting…) but with a rise “at the end” when the station count starts to drop again.
My interpretation of all this is that the best thermometers on the planet say that generally, nothing much has changed. There has been an upward run out of the 1700s LIA (trend data I have not posted due to the thermometer count being a bit low) that ‘went flat’ about 1880. Then there was a gentle shallow drift lower at the best stations (masked in the broad record by a large number of thermometers added at airports, in growing cities, and in the newly freed tropical countries – perhaps as we added major airports for the tourist trade?) and in the last decade and 1/2 or so, we’ve cut back the thermometer count a whole bunch (why?) and made the record less clear, but showing a warming trend that probably has more to do with where the surviving thermometers are than anything else.
So I think I can say with fair certainty that substantially nothing has happened over the last 150 years, net, but that there has been a “couple of decade long” ripple of warming / cooling cycles (PDO? ENSO?) layered on top of a very slight cooling, up until the thermometer count goes dodgy recently.
In other words: Sound and fury signifying nothing.
Wish I had something more spectacular to say, but I must go where the data lead me. And the (clean) data say: “Problem? What problem?”
I suppose it’s still possible that we could have a Bond Event (about due) or we could have a solar stagnation leading to a LIA redux or whatever. But the temperature data from the direct GHCN records from the best stations say:
The sun has not caused any major changes.
CO2 has not caused any major changes.
Things are far more like they have been before than anything else.
There is a small cyclical ripple (sun? oceans? whatever… it’s small).
If you want a catastrophe story, look outside the last 150 years data or look at time periods of less than a decade (i.e. volcanos, meteors).
I know it wasn’t one of your choices (warmer or colder) but it’s what the data say. We have had weather, but in the context of a fairly stable climate with a couple of decade minor “ripple”.

Evan Jones
Editor
August 14, 2009 5:14 pm

E.M.Smith (16:49:59) :
That wasn’t me. I was just quoting. My take is that is has warmed — slightly.

Lance
August 14, 2009 5:53 pm

Gary Pearse (16:21:28) :
Yes, I live just south of Calgary and indeed frost warnings.
However, in 1992 we had a cold spell with …..snow (aug 21,22), and temps of -3C. ( I do volunteer work for Environment Canada), and my station had that recorded in my records….next week +30C predicted…

George E. Smith
August 14, 2009 5:54 pm

“”” Dajida (13:13:40) :
It’s not popular to explicitly invoke the Law of Exemptions when stating such truths as “All truth is relative.” “””
Sounds like a momentous philosophical statement; so just what does it mean; in plain English. It sounds like a variant of “The US Constitution is a “living” document.” Which is a euphemism for I’ll interpret it any way I see fit; rather than just take what it says in plain English; albeit of the period; but any 8th grader; other than in California can read what is says and means.
Yes certain questions are “undecidable ” in the Godell sense; but that simply menas those questions have no truth assignable to them. But not all questions are undecidable. All branches of mathematics are built from a system of axioms. those axioms are absolute truths by definition; whether obvious or not, and no problem or theorem or statement that does not accept the absolute truth of those axioms, is a valid part of that branch of mathematics. In other words, to play the game, you have to abide by the rules, otherwise your are simply playing a different game.
Projective (plane) Geometry for example has a simple set of axioms:
1/ Two point define a line.
2/ Two lines define a point.
3/ There are at least four points.
That is it. The Euclideans might immediately object to (2), arguing that parallel lines do not define a point. That may be so in Euclidean Geometry; but in Projective Geometry it is axiomatic; so it is true. And yes there are still parallel lines; and parallel lines meet at a point (I told you so) on “The Line at Infinity.”
The very first theorem of projective Geometry proves the hypothesis that there are at least seven points.
Within the rules set by those axioms; you cannot prove there are any more than seven points. There may be; but you just can’t prove it.
So I question whether all truths are relative; some are absolute by definition.

Robert Bateman
August 14, 2009 7:12 pm

astronmr20 (16:11:29) :
First off, it’s a cherry picker for sure…Nature. It’s an ice shelf, and you can see the coast of Antarctica in the distance. Since when is an ice shelf a glacier? It carries no moraine or till load.
Those folks don’t have an oar in the water amongst them.
Second, the Ice Shelf is floating, and this article is going over issues that have already been addressed. If it melts, it will not appreciably affect sea levels as it’s already IN the water. Now, the previous big crack they had jumped up and down over re-froze. Did anyone think of conditions such as wind pressure that can tear loose or subliminate the ice?
So, get out your glass of water, pop in an ice cube so that the cube is as sumberged as possible ( 10% or so should float) measure the meniscus of the water level, let it melt and measure again.

Dajida
August 14, 2009 8:37 pm

George E. Smith (17:54:29)
So I question whether all truths are relative; some are absolute by definition.

KW seemed to be initiating, at least what I see as, a game of “Claim the highest peak on Mount Knowledge.” My shot was sarcastic, and I agree with you: some truths are relative, and some are absolute.
We’ve seen several decades of writers and scholars enamored with the concept of contextually bound truth. Too many of them went too far, so that today the performative contradiction “all truth is relative” seems ubiquitous graffiti.

Don S.
August 14, 2009 8:42 pm

I’ve probably had about enough of humorless rationalists on this web site. How many of you can think wihout Math? Remember that the theory of relativity was the greatest achievement of logical thought in human history. Any of you have a greater achievement? I think not. Models suck. Math is a diguise for lack of genius. Pull your heads out of collective a***s and start thinking. Anyone with an inkling of sense can teach a donkey to do math. THINK.

timetochooseagain
August 14, 2009 10:30 pm

Don S. (20:42:43) : All science is numbers and qualitative meanderings lead nowhere. What took relativity from arm chair philosophy to rigorous theoretical explanations of the Universe? Math. And without math, there would have been no way to determine whether or not a logical thought experiment actually was reflected in reality-one needs precise quantitative predictions to test! Your suggestion is also odd in that you seem to think models are mathematical and that this is their problem. And it’s ludicrous to think of logic as being separate from math in the first place.
Are you attacking arithmetic? Because I couldn’t teach a donkey to do calculus of fluids.
Regardless, when someone actually says “Math is a diguise for lack of genius” in my presence, it is literal blasphemy. You are literally calling God a fraud.

Chris Schoneveld
August 15, 2009 1:02 am

timetochooseagain (22:30:22) :
“You are literally calling God a fraud.”
What’s wrong with that?

August 15, 2009 1:11 am

Leif Svalgaard (15:44:06) :
Nasif Nahle (14:09:35) :
Mark T (10:38:26) :
Roger A. Pielke Sr (08:57:39) :
“It is for this reason that I argee with your point on ocean heat content”
Unfortunately, truth has been silenced in favor of solipsism.
It would that people agreeing with other people’s position [e.g. about ‘ocean heat content’] is just the opposite of solipsism.

There is agreement among and around solipsists. 🙂

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