
This essay below from Ralph Ellis was posted in comments a couple of days ago, and I decided to promote it to a full post.
For the record, let me say that I support some of the renewable energy ideas, even putting money where my mouth is, putting solar on my own home and a local school. However, neither project would have been possible without state subsidies. For renewable energy to work in our economy, it must move past the government subsidy stage and become more efficient. It took over a hundred years t create our current energy infrastructure, anyone who believes we can completely rebuild it with the current crop of renewable energy technologies is not realistic. – Anthony
Renewable energy – our downfall? By Ralph Ellis
The government, under pressure from a disparate confederation of environmentalists and greens, have agreed to press ahead with a host of renewable energy sources, including wind, tidal and wave power. Yet, despite the vast sums of public money that will be allocated to these projects and the fundamental enormity of the decisions that have been made, there has been very little in the way of open debate on the subject. Like many aspects of today’s governmental system, the powers that be appear to have made a decision about future energy production based upon image, spin and the number of votes the policy will capture, while ignoring the basic truths and science that should be the foundation-stone of any policy. Nobody has even debated the absolutely fundamental question of whether any of these energy generation systems actually work. The media’s reaction to this steamrollered, image-based decision-making process has been muted to the point of being inaudible, and I can only assume that either very few in the media have any grasp of the calamitous implications of the government’s policy, or they are cowering behind their desks for fear of losing their jobs.
So why, then, do I consider renewable energy to be a danger to the entire nation, both economically and socially? This is, after all, ‘free energy’, and what can be the problem with a free resource? Well, as readers will probably be fully aware, no resource is free even if it appears to be so, and this is the first of the many lies about renewable energy that have been peddled by industry spokesmen and government ministers. Oil is not free, despite it just sitting in the ground; water is not free, despite it falling from the sky; nuclear power is not free, despite the raw materials being ridiculously cheap, and neither is any renewable energy resource ‘free’. In fact, the conversion process from ‘free’ renewable energy to usable grid electricity is remarkably expensive and its enormous costs are being subsidised by the consumer. In the UK, this subsidy is achieved through Renewables Obligation Certificates, the cost of which are eventually passed onto the consumer. In 2006 the cost to consumers was £600 million, and this is predicted to rise to £3 billion in 2020. 1 That is about £200 per household per annum, on top of current energy bills, for the privilege of using of ‘free’ energy.
Now one might argue that that is not very much money to demand from the public, given the advertised prospect of clean, renewable energy that will fuel our homes and our economy for the next few generations. Power at the press of a button, and not a drop of noxious emissions of any nature in sight – just an array of perfectly silent, gently rotating wind-turbines stretching towards the horizon – it is dream-world picture direct from the cover issue of an environmentalist magazine, and the answer to a politician’s prayers. In one master-stroke the environment is magically healed, and votes are captured by the million – roll on the next election.
However, it is my belief that this sublime day-dream actually holds the seeds for our economic decline and for social disorder on an unprecedented scale. Why? Because no technical and industrial society can maintain itself on unreliable and intermittent power supplies. In 2003 there were six major electrical blackouts across the world, and the American Northeast blackout of August 14th was typical of these. The outage started in Ohio, when some power lines touched some trees and took out the Eastlake power station, but the subsequent cascade failure took out 256 power stations within one hour.
The entire Northeast was down onto emergency electrical supplies, and the result was social and economic chaos. Nothing, in our integrated and automated world, works without electricity. Transport came to a grinding halt. Aircraft were grounded, trains halted and road traffic was at a standstill, due to a lack of traffic lights and fuel. Water supplies were severely disrupted, as were telecommunications, while buildings had to be evacuated due to a lack of fire detection and suppression systems. Without any available transport, many commuters were forced to sleep in offices or in Central Park, and while the summer temperatures made this an office-adventure to remember, had this been winter the results of this electrical failure could have been catastrophic.
This is what happens to a major technical civilisation when its life-blood, its electrical supply, is turned off. Chaos looms, people die, production ceases, life is put on hold. Yet this was just a once-in-a-decade event, a memorable occasion to laugh about over dinner-parties for many years to come, but just imagine what would happen to a society where this happened every week, or if the power was cut for a whole fortnight or more. Now things are getting serious. Without transport, refrigeration, computers and key workers, food production and distribution would cease. Sleeping in Central Park on a balmy summer’s night is a memorable inconvenience, whereas fifty million empty bellies is getting very serious indeed. In fact, it is a recipe for violence and civil unrest.
But what has all this doom and gloom got to do with the government’s drive for renewable energy, you might ask? Well, the entire problem with renewables – almost all renewables – is that they are dangerously intermittent power sources.
Perhaps the first renewable source we should discuss is tidal power. Unfortunately, while tidal power initially looks like a dream power source of cheap, renewable energy, it suffers from massive variability in supply. The energy that it produces is tidal, and the tides are, of course, linked to the orbit of the Moon, with there being about two tides every day. This sinusoidal tidal pattern produces four slack periods during each day when the tide is turning, either at high tide or at low tide, and during these slack periods the tidal power system will not generate any electricity at all. Unfortunately, the energy that is produced is therefore delivered at set periods of the day which are connected to the orbit of the Moon, rather than our daily lives, and so the electricity produced is in no way synchronised with the electrical demand cycle. If these slack periods coincide with the 7-am and 7-pm peak demands for electricity, as they will several times a month, then the whole generating system is next to useless.
Since the energy produced earlier in the day cannot be stored, as will be explained later, extra generating capacity will have to be brought on-line to cover the deficiency. This means that for every tidal system installed, a conventional power station will have to be either built or retained to ensure continuity of energy supply. But this power station will have to be up and running all the time, what is known in the industry as ’spinning-reserve’, as it takes up to 12 hours to bring a power station on-line from a cold start-up. Thus if we are to maintain continuity of supply, this wonderful ‘free-energy’ tidal source actually results in twice the cost and saves very little in the way of hydrocarbon fuels. So, unless we are prepared to accept rolling power cuts across the country, which would result in the same chaos as the Northeast blackout, it is unlikely that we could ever successfully integrate large tidal power systems into the National Grid.
While tidal power may be predictably intermittent, wind power is even more problematical. Recent EU directives have stipulated that some 40% of electricity should be powered from renewable resources by 2020. If this were to be predominantly produced from wind turbines, as is likely, then we would need some 30 gigawatts (gw) of wind generating capacity. To put that figure in perspective, the UK currently has about 0.5 gw of wind capacity. However, that is not the full story, for UK wind turbines are only currently delivering about 25% of installed capacity, due to wind fluctuations and maintenance issues. That means we actually need some 120 gw of installed wind generation capacity to cover just 40% of total UK electrical demand. If the turbines being constructed average 2 mw rated capacity, then we shall need some 60,000 wind turbines to be installed over the next twelve years. And where shall we erect all those? – Certainly Not In My Back Yard.
But building thousands of wind turbines still does not resolve the fundamental problem, for the real problem here is the enormous scale of wind variability. I saw a wind-power spokesman the other week on the flagship BBC Hardtalk series, who claimed that the number of days without wind power in the UK were as rare as hen’s teeth – a comment that went totally unchallenged. Well all I can say, is that the hens in the UK must look like a Tyrannosaurus Rex.
The truth of the matter is that there are numerous days without significant winds across the UK, and when those conditions occur it doesn’t matter how much installed generating capacity we have, for it all goes off-line. A report from Denmark 2 indicates that the Danish ‘wind carpet’, which is the largest array of wind turbines in Europe, generated less than 1% of installed power on 54 days during 2002. That is more than one day every week of the year without electrical power. However, if we broaden the definition of ‘without power’ slightly, the same Danish ‘wind carpet’ generated less than 10% of installed capacity for some 16 weeks during 2003. Yet Denmark has the same kind of northerly, maritime weather systems as does the UK. Thus the wind-generation industry is lying to us, once more, for a ‘wind carpet’ that generates less than 10% of installed capacity it next to useless, for the national electrical grid will never cope with such a massive reduction in power supply. In fact, wind generation is so useless, that Denmark, Europe’s largest wind generating nation by far, has never used any of its wind-generated electricity – because it is too variable. It is almost impossible to integrate wind power into a normal generating grid, and so Denmark has merely exported its variable wind supplies to Norway and Sweden. 3 These nations can cope with these electrical fluctuations because of their abundance of hydro-electric power, which can be turned on and off quite rapidly, unlike most other generating systems.
This revelation, that wind power is totally unusable, brings us onto the other great lie of renewable energy proponents – the lie that renewable power can somehow be stored to cope with power outages. The first of these miraculous energy storage facilities, that is said to come to the aid of the thousands of wind-turbines that lie motionless across the entire nation, is the pumped water storage system. However, this claim is utter nonsense, and for the following reasons:
a. Our present pumped storage systems are already fully utilized in overcoming variability in electrical DEMAND, and so they have absolutely no extra capacity for overcoming variability in SUPPLY due to the unreliable wind and tidal generation systems.
b. Pumped storage systems currently only supply a very small percentage of the grid (about 5%) for just a few hours, while wind generation systems can go off-line for days or weeks at a time, as the Danish generation report clearly demonstrates. To put this argument into figures, the Dinorwig power storage system, the largest in the UK, can provide 5% of the UK’s power generation requirements (2.9 gw) for up to 5 hours before it runs out of water. (Thus the total capacity of Dinorwig is 14.5 gwh). If the UK was entirely dependent on wind power, a wind outage lasting just two days would require 140 storage stations with the same generating capacity as Dinorwig to maintain normal power supplies (assuming average UK demand of 1,000 gwh/day). As the Danish report confirms, power outages lasting a week or more are the norm, rather than the exception, and so if the UK generated a significant proportion of our electrical capacity from wind-turbines, as the EU has argued, the lights and heating systems would be going out, the computers going down and transport systems failing all over the country.
c. Pumped storage systems are not only hugely expensive to construct, the topography of Britain ensures that very few sites are available, and so we will never be able to store significant amounts of our energy requirements. These storage systems also tend to be situated in areas of outstanding natural beauty, and so – you have guessed it – the Greens oppose the very storage system they are promoting.
The same kind of argument can be sustained for flywheel energy storage, compressed air storage, battery storage and hydrogen storage – for each and every one of these systems is highly complex, very expensive, hugely inefficient and limited in capacity. The much hyped ‘Hydrogen Economy’ is one of these technological cul-de-sacs. It should be stated from the outset that hydrogen is not an energy source, but an energy storage system – a ‘battery’. The hydrogen has to be created before it is used, and it merely stores the energy that is flowing through the normal electrical grid. Unfortunately for the proponents of this clean ‘energy system’, hydrogen powered vehicles and generators are only about 5% efficient. A huge amount of energy is wasted in the production, liquification and storage of the hydrogen, and so hydrogen will not be propelling our cars, nor will it be storing energy for when the wind stops blowing. In addition, hydrogen storage vessels are highly flammable and potentially explosive, and I for one would rather have a nuclear power station on my doorstep than a hydrogen facility. However, the final unsayable truth about hydrogen powered vehicles (and electric vehicles) is that we would have to double or treble the number of power stations to cope with this electrical demand. The fact that many cars would recharge overnight would be useful in evening out electrical demand, but the number of power stations in the UK would at least double. Now what would the Greens have to say about that?
In short, it would appear that some of the proponents of these storage systems simply have no concept of the huge amounts of energy that a nation like Britain uses within a normal week. There is no energy system available that can remotely be expected to replace renewable energy resources, while they lie dormant for weeks on end. These and other delusions that are being being peddled by renewables proponents are downright dangerous, as they give ignorant ministers in government the impression that we can maintain this nation on renewable energy supplies. But nothing could be further from the truth, and the 2003 blackouts demonstrate the seriousness of the consequences if we do run out of electrical power.
Nuclear
But if the large-scale use of renewable energy systems is utterly impractical, there has to be a solution to our energy supply problems; because even in the short term our dependance on foreign oil and gas places us at the mercy of oil and gas owning despots, who will seek to gain every leverage possible over us. Look at the current situation in the Middle East and Russia and multiply that by ten, and you have some idea of our future political situation if we become solely dependent on foreign energy supplies.
In addition to this – for every year we delay in getting reliable and internally sourced energy supplies, millions of tonnes of a valuable mineral resources are literally going up in smoke. Nearly everything we need in our modern world needs oil as a raw material to make it – no oil supplies not only means no energy, but also no raw materials too. When the last barrel of oil comes out of the ground – and if alternate energy provisions are not already in place – human civilization as we know it will cease to exist. That is neither an exaggeration nor a joke, for absolutely nothing in our modern world will work without adequate energy supplies and petrochemical raw materials to make the things we so often take for granted.
What ever you may think about the technology, the ONLY reliable answer to our energy supply and global warming problems for the foreseeable future is going to be nuclear power (either fission or fusion). Ok, so nuclear power has got a bad name through Chernobyl and a few other incidents, but the Chernobyl plant in particular should never have been allowed in the first place. The RBMK design was (and still is) a rudimentary graphite moderated steam cooled plant with no containment vessel – indeed, it was no better that the original ‘graphite pile’ in the Manhattan Project (circa 1943). Remember that graphite and steam are an explosive combination if they get hot enough, and that’s exactly what happened at Chernobyl (this was NOT a ‘nuclear’ explosion). This arrangement should never have been allowed at the design stage, which is why the British AGRs (Advanced Gas Reactors) used an inert gas coolant. In addition, both the AGR and the the USAs PWRs (Pressurized Water Reactors) are naturally fission-stable, and their very nature will resist and counter a runaway thermic event like that which occurred at Chernobyl.
While the early designs of nuclear power stations have highlighted the problems that poor design or construction can pose, our design and technological capability has moved on in great strides. The Russian RBMKs are the equivalent of a model T Ford, the British AGRs represent Morris Minor technology from the ’60s, but we are now capable of producing Bugattis and Ferraris – which provide a quantum leap in terms of safety and efficiency. The point is that there are methods of reducing nuclear risks if we put our minds to it, and the latest design from Westinghouse – the AP1000 – will be able to deliver ten times the efficiency of the reactors in current use. (Which makes it odd that the UK government have just sold Westinghouse to Toshiba of Japan, just as orders for new power stations are about to be signed.)
Therefore, we could supply Britain’s entire current and future energy requirements with nuclear power, while only using the same amount of nuclear material that is in circulation today (and which produces just 20% of our needs). Remember also that nuclear power is non-polluting in terms of greenhouse gasses, acid rain and other noxious emissions, and thus all of the reductions that we aspire to make in these pollutants could be achieved in a stroke if we turned to nuclear power.
And when it comes to nuclear safety issues, let us not forget that thousands of people in ships and submarines live in close proximity to nuclear plants with no ill-effects. Also remember that while nuclear power has acquired a bad name, courtesy of some sections of the media, far more ecological damage has been done and many more people have died though oil and coal extraction, over the past decades, than in nuclear power incidents. Remember Piper Alpha, Aberfan, Torry Canyon, Exxon Valdes, etc: etc:? The list is almost endless, especially if one includes all the coal-pit disasters in Russia and China, from which much of our energy, in terms of finished products, is now sourced. If a nuclear power station had killed a whole school full of children the environmentalists would never let us forget it, but because it was the result of the coal industry they let the memory fade. If 6,000 workers were killed every year in the nuclear industry Greenpeace would go ballistic, but because these are coal mining deaths in China they are ignored. Why do some people exhibit these double standards? What is it about technical progress that they so despise? In some respects, some of these anti-nuclear demonstrators appear to be portraying themselves as the world’s very own technological Taliban, and in this guise they must be vigorously opposed.
However, it should be borne in mind that fission power is only a temporary stop-gap that will maintain our economy and civilisation over the next century until something better comes along. Nuclear fusion may well be that brighter future, but for all the reasons already given we need a solution now, not in 30 year’s time. Nuclear fission will provide a stop-gap for that vital century, but fission power on its own is a non-renewable energy resource. The way forward has to be fast-breeder fission, where the nuclear core creates its own fuel supply, a technique that has already been demonstrated and perfected. This energy source would provide the world with 1,000 years of energy, a large enough stop-gap to allow all kinds of new exotic energy sources to be discovered and exploited.
We have about 30 or so years before the shortage of oil becomes acute and our economies and societies begin to falter, and that is not very much time in which to alter our entire energy production industry. It is like relying on the Victorians to plan ahead and ensure that we still had a viable civilisation in the 1930s. And while the Victorians were both successful and resourceful, history demonstrates that new sources of raw materials were never actively planned until the old sources were in desperately short supply or worked-out completely. However, the introduction of a new, nationwide power generating system is an extremely long-term investment, and if we are to make this change without a dramatic interruption to our energy supplies (and our society) we need foresight, vision and a quick decision. What we need is a tough, educated, talented, rational leader to take a difficult but responsible decision to dramatically increase our nuclear energy production capability. However, what we have in the UK is Gordon Brown!
Ralph Ellis
June 2004
1. David Derbyshire, Daily Mail 5th Feb 2008.
2 & 3 Hugh Sharman, Why wind power works in Denmark.
I visit this website daily and look forward to its postings, but can someone define who Steven Goddard is ? I’ve asked this a number of times with no answer given by anyone. We read many good blogs by him without any understanding as to if he a writer, scientist, fellow researcher ???
“The climate crisis, economic crisis and energy security concerns will begin to unravel if we start a shift away from expensive, vulnerable and polluting carbon-based fuels,” former U.S. vice-president and campaigner Al Gore told the conference.
What a bunch of [self-snip]. Considering that standard hydrocarbons and hydrocarbon derivatives are still cheaper than synthetic or wind/solar alternative, where does he get his numbers? Let me guess… from his [self-snip].
If you can bare the pain, read the rest at: http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-GreenBusiness/idUSTRE54N0GZ20090524
Greg (07:59:15) :
Greg you missed the point. We are NOT “running out of oil”.
The critical issue is “LIGHT oil”. There is about three or four times as much heavy oil, bitumen etc. as there is “light oil”, plus there is coal. However, show me how you run your vehicle on TAR or COAL?
The fuel needs to be extracted, then upgraded, then converted into syncrude – and then refined. Adding capacity costs $100,000 /bbl/day.
To replace 100 million bbl/day will “only” cost $10 trillion.
More importantly, this WILL NOT HAPPEN OVERNIGHT.
US peaked in 1970. Oil imports have been steadily increasing.
These are the issues that must be dealt with.
Cut transport fuel in half – you will cut the economy in half overnight.
It takes a generation to transition.
mkurbo,
I’m a veteran scientist/engineer/environmentalist with degrees in science and engineering. I am not a climate scientist.
Hi Ralph Ellis
Thanks for your reply and the links concerning Denmark. Will make an interesting read.
As for another question of mine you answer it as follows:
>>Obviously there is a demand for ‘green’-energy. Well then
>>let people be able to sign up for ‘expensive’ power and pay
>>twice the price for their electricity.
>Yes, but only if they swear never to use ANY electricity on days when no renewable >power is available. ie, an overcast mid-winter anti-cyclone over the UK, when there is no >solar, wind or wave energy available. As they shiver in their homes, they may hopefully >rediscover the rational world.
Exactly this is one of the merits of the market based approach. It clearly illustrates to the customer if a product is not efficient/reliable.
However it could work with storage like how salt is utilized for the large solar plants around Las Vegas. Again at an extra cost but if there is a demand it should be possible to provide a supply is all I am arguing. The present energy system is flawed as an economic market resulting in low differentiation and lack of innovation.
Also as Chris Y relates the technology exists for advanced energy registration and management. Not saying it is simple or easy to implement an efficient energy market. Merely pointing out how it would relieve ‘society’ from some of the influence of the green lobbies.
Um, your essay would have more credence if you would have gotten the source of the tides correctly–they don’t depend on the moon’s orbit, they depend on the Earth’s rotation, moving under the moon’s position in it’s orbit. Thus there are two tidal cycles per day, high tides under the moon and opposite the moon (to within the amount each tide is pushed forward by friction with the Earth’s crust, usually about 1 hour, and moving back as the moon slowly orbits the Earth, which makes cycles closer to 11 hours than 12).
Agree about what you’re saying, just don’t let factual errors kill your credibility.
There is no “right” to survive, only a need to survive.
Ray (10:55:28) : “jorgekafkazar: As far as transportation goes, it is not really a question of fuel power density and size of the reservoir, but mainly the efficiency of the motor. If we had more efficient motors we could surely use those fuels with lower energy densities to achieve the same distance. Of course, more efficient motors and high powere density fuels would take us very far given a fixed tank size.”
I agree, more efficient motors would be nice, but it ain’t gonna happen, much. There are fundamental thermodynamic limitations to the Otto cycle and the Diesel cycle. Also, typically, lower energy density fuels, such as alcohol, yield lower mileage.
There are also times when fuel density is very important. Example: A friend sent me an article on a new, very efficient fuel cell. It sounded wonderful, but a few minutes of math revealed that this marvel would require a 600 gallon fuel tank to obtain the same range as a standard gasoline-powered car, not counting the loss in mileage due to lugging the fuel around. So much for performance.
The typical 21st century car is going to look less like a car and more like a cross between a Formula Junior and a bicycle. At that scale, gas tank size is very important, since you don’t want it in your lap when you get hit by Arnold’s Hummer or Al Gore’s limo.
Greg
See the best actual public data IEA WEO 2008 – World Oil Forecasts using Wikipedia Megaprojects, Dec 2008
How do you propose to keep our economy going as LIGHT oil declines?
@ur momisugly adoucette (11:36:26) :
” Roger Sowell (10:14:00) wrote:
1. Renewable power works quite well, and provides more than 13 percent of all power sold in California … The 13 percent figure increases to 23 percent when large hydroelectric is included
Well, in this case the term POWER is limited to Electricity.
Renewables, including Large Hydro, represent 12% of California power with half coming from Hydro.”
The word power does refer to electricity. As to the renewable figures you stated, you are quite wrong, sir. The figure is 23 percent, please see the link I referenced. Hydro is right at 10 percent, which is less than half of 23.
“The govt bolstered Solar and Wind output have increased just 1% since 2004.
These Calif numbers are also preliminary figures (final will be out soon) but they also show a 6% decline in electricity production, and in a declining market the government mandates/incentives prop up the renewable sector creating ever more distortion in the markets.”
Are you picking cherries? The wind generation increased more than 33 percent since 2001. So the production decreased 6 percent (I will accept your figure for argument’s sake only), when demand decreases (due to decreased economic activity), one would expect production to decrease.
“Still renewables are at the lowest percent of electricity generation since at least 2004.
They peaked at 30% in 2006.”
And your point would be…..what? California is taking advantage of the natural resources available, including abundant sunshine, a bit of wind, a generous portion of geothermal, substantial hydroelectric, and great bio-gas opportunities.
California also mandated high-efficiency power from fossil-fuel sources, which effectively rules out any power from coal. Thus, the coal-based imports will be phased out and replaced by either renewables or natural gas.
Steven Goddard (5:39) is making the usual mistake of conflating nuclear power with nuclear weapons. If countries like North Korea or Iran insist on trying to make nuclear weapons, the absence of civilian nuclear generation facilities will in no way hinder them from doing so, just as their existence under safeguard in no way aids them. It may come as a little surprise to Steven and his ilk, but nuclear weapons programs are always dedicated military enterprises that have nothing to do with civilian activity.
I think there are several issues here, the first being that there are lots of countries selling us energy-oil and gas primarily-who don’t like our way of life, which makes us very vulnerable to political pressures. in my opinon, security of supplies is a much bigger problem than agw, and is a compelling reason to develop other energy resources that is quite separate to any other arguement. We also have the considerable irony that it is the transfer of such large amounts of our money to unfriendly countries that will help them to threaten us.
Secondly, that each country needs to use what is most appropriate in their circumstances. The UK sits atop vast coal seams said to be sufficient for 300 years and being an island is washed by strong tides and waves. Yet we won’t use coal and research into waves/tides is minimal. Water based resources are at least 10 years behind wind technology-which I would consider an unreliable embryonic system at present.
Our politicians marched against nuclear in their younger days and pay lip service to new stations.They also hate coal, but as the UK has an ageing power generation system it is difficult to see how renewables-which by their nature are intermittent- can possibly fulfil the role of providing a reliable base power source. A useful top up yes-our main source , no.
We need a large number of power stations that can produce a quantifiable amount of power that can be calculated and relied on. I have no hang ups about nuclear or coal but accept in the real world we will see very little new capacity in the next 20 years from either source.
Personally I would use our coal reserves on the basis this gives us a breathing space. I would also allocate far more resources to tidal/wave and as a matter of urgency look into other possibilities, be it hydrogen or some other resource.
One potential source that wasnt mentioned in the aricle was thermal reach. This exploits the considerable temperature difference betwen the top of the ocean and the layers lower down. This temperature difference is easier to exploit in countries such as the UK which has a broadly suitable ocean temperature profile, although conversely much of the oceans around us are relatively shallow, which might limit the amount of suitable locations.
I have heard of a few small projects looking at thermal reach-I dont know if anyone here has any more direct experience of the pros and cons of it than I do.
Tonyb
Gianfranco (02:43:38) :
“Nuclear waste…”
Gianfranco, this type of flaccid remark without elaboration is what is wrong with the whole issue of global warming and energy source (non)debate. These little “sound bytes” are what are trundled out in the midst of serious discussion and are the green picture that is to mean a thousand words. Bury the waste deep in a granite batholith. Someone posted above said drop into a tectonic subduction zone, save it up and shoot it at the sun while we are on some other mission. One of the best kept secrets by dimension stone industry is that your average red granite that is sitting out there for all to see and walk over is a uranium ore at about $150/lb U3O8. Take a geiger counter with you when you visit a building clad in red granite.
JamesG (04:22:04) :
“use CO2 for green houses? pressurizing oil feilds?”
James, we are talking about 10 trillion cubic metres of CO2 a year – in 15 years it will be more than measured natural gas reserves (see my post above: Gary Pearse (06:06:08) : on sequestration and disaster)
John Egan (06:26:05) : “shortage of uranium…”
There is no shortage of U – there has been a shortage of exploration for it for 40yrs because of anti nuclear. At the price you mention, mining companies were finding it all over the place. Even red granites are U ore at 150 bucks a pound and every phospate plant can recover substantial quantities of it.
“>>Obviously there is a demand for ‘green’-energy. Well then
>>let people be able to sign up for ‘expensive’ power and pay
>>twice the price for their electricity.
We did something like that in California a few years back. It was called deregulation, I believe. I remember a form coming in the mail that gave a choice of buying electricity from a ‘green’ company (hydro-generated) or conventional (coal/oil-fired) source. Shortly thereafter, rolling brown-outs and blackouts occurred, the state budget reserve was spent to purchase powerlines, and the governor was kicked out of office.
Now, the new governor has ‘gone green’ , we have +10% unemployment and the state government is essentially bankrupt, operating on borrowed funds.
Watch what happens here in CA, it will be coming to a state/country near you soon!
RJ
@jorge (11:40:31) :
“Roger Sowell (10:14:00) : “…quite a number of energy storage systems (ESS) exist and work quite well; their drawback is one of economics, not practicality…”
Economic failure IS a practical drawback and, in fact, the most fundamental one.”
No, primarily large storage is not yet economic. Many companies enjoy small storage systems to great advantage, and find the economics quite attractive. A battery-based UPS (uninterruptible power supply) for computers and sensitive electronics is one example. High-speed flywheels also enjoy good sales.
If modern governments supported large-scale ESS in the manner they formerly supported large hydroelectric dams and generation, the picture would be quite different. Just to name a few, I refer to Hoover Dam, Glen Canyon Dam, and Bonneville Dam. The country did not seem to suffer from those instances of government largesse.
A large storage system that employs batteries is approved and being installed on Catalina Island offshore California. That is the most economic solution out of roughly half a dozen systems studied.
““..Renewable power works quite well, and provides more than 13 percent of all power sold in California. This 13 percent includes solar, wind, geothermal, small hydroelectric, and various forms of methane production or capture from organic materials.”
How much of that 13 percent is propped up by direct and indirect governmental (Federal and state) subsidies? If you ask us to consider all the financial drawbacks of nuclear, why is it right for you to ignore the true underlying financial structure of renewables?”
Ah, the subsidy-is-bad argument. Literally dozens of things receive federal or state subsidies in one form or another. Are you opposed to all, or just singling out power generation? Nuclear power, as you bring up, is greatly subsidized by federal money. The amount of federal money that pours into regulatory agencies for nuclear is staggering. If, as you advocate, we are to eliminate any power source that receives a subsidy, then nuclear would be the first to go.
“Consider, too, that much of the expense of nuclear has historically been the result of deliberate green interference in the licensing and construction permitting process. Total project lead-time is a large factor in out-of-control nuclear capital costs, one that needs to be addressed.”
One could say the same about obstruction for natural gas plants, coal-fired plants, large hydroelectric plants, solar and wind plants, and wave power; the greenie-weenies are opposed to everything. In the case of nuclear, there were very good reasons for the changing regulations and inspections. Nuclear power is ultrahazardous by legal definition, a designation not applicable to any other power source.
Or, do you advocate that nuclear plants dispense with the containment dome, the spent fuel storage areas, the safety systems, and the requirement to withstand an impact from a large commercial aircraft? Those design standards are there solely because sober and wise men understand that radioactive nuclear fission is deadly, toxic, very long-lasting, and will kill people without those safeguards.
With regard to nuclear waste, why did we ever stop dumping it in the ocean? Remember, radioactivity is ubiquitous – the only issue is concentration. We concentrate it to use it (enriching Uranium etc.) because that is the onlyway to get useable energy from it and for disposal, we should simply dilute it again.
The UK waste that has got everyone so upset was packaged in such a way as to deliberately leak slowly so that in an ocean trench it would be diluted as it leaked and decayed. Storing it on land – where it still leaked as the drums were designed to – has created a radioactive plume in the subsoil. Hardly an unanticipated occurrence.
Imagine the good to be done if a fraction of these funds were directed to clean drinking water in developing nations. Conservative estimates list 4 million deaths per year due to poor drinking water.
I had a pleasure to add “technological taleban” to wikipedia greenpeace page. Counting 15 min, nobody took it away yet?
And people who are against nuclear should keep remembering: France has done it:
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf40.html
and the french are not into wasting money.
* France derives over 75% of its electricity from nuclear energy. This is due to a long-standing policy based on energy security.
* France is the world’s largest net exporter of electricity due to its very low cost of generation, and gains over EUR 3 billion per year from this.
* France has been very active in developing nuclear technology. Reactors and fuel products and services are a major export.
* It is building its first Generation III reactor and planning a second.
…..
The cost of nuclear-generated electricity fell by 7% from 1998 to 2001 to about EUR 3 cents/kWh, which is very competitive in Europe. The back-end costs (reprocessing, wastes disposal, etc) are fairly small when compared to the total kWh cost, typically about 5%.
The whole link is worth reading particularly to help nucleophobes realize that there are working and economical solutions in one of the most civilized countries on the planet.
JamesG (03:21:50) :
Sellafield is being decommissioned now and the costs are spiraling out of control – the latest estimate being 80 billion.
Spurious court cases by the Eco Taliban have brought about the requirement of 10,000 years of sequestration of spent material. But even that’s worth it to have lights, heat and machinery working when we want it, not just when the wind blows. Besides, as others have pointed out, newer reactors are magnitudes more efficient than early reactors and can reprocess fuel.
The left has a long history of being utopian.
Mark Bowlin (09:21:47) :
Thanks for the excerpts. Any chance the entire paper is available?
Was Read’s “Ablaze” among your source material?
This article, like many others, puts forward the notion that when we run out of oil, modern life as we know it will cease to exist due to our dependence on petrochemicals.
That is not accurate.
We can make “petro” chemicals from anything containing carbon. That includes coal, trees, algae, and even trash. This is NOT a theoretical. Actone was produced by a bacterium (the method was developed by the person who became one of the first leaders of the new state of Israel). EMN Eastman Chemical is still using coal to make its plastics (they never moved away from coal when the rest of the industry did at the onset of cheap oil). DOW Dow Chemical and other US producers use a lot of Natural Gas and between the quantities recently liberated by new “tight shale” techniques and the future availability of Methane Clathrates from the sea bed; we have natural gas for many centuries. DD DuPont is working with BP British Petroleum to produce butanol, as a fuel but usable as a chemical feedstock, from biomass on a production basis. And RTK Rentech is presently producing agricultural chemicals from trash. There are also a half dozen minor companies using various forms of pyrolysis to make a synthetic oil from plant matter and trash; along with others making oil from algae.
We will never run out of “petro”chemicals.
The notion is also put forward that we must have fast breeders to make the Uranium fuel cycle last more than a century or so. This, too, is lacking. While I have nothing against fast breeders (or any of the dozens of other similar reactors) we do have choices. Any of them will do (though markets will only choose the cheapest.) One is a Japanese technique (proven at a test scale basis) that produces U from sea water at about $150 / lb. (roughly $300 / kg – though given Yen changes that will vary). Expensive compared to land based mines ($40 / lb to $120 / lb most of the time) but dirt cheap compared to oil.
My final comment is about the overall tone of the article. The dour “only one choice” and everything else is broken tone. This is just way too simplistic and leans toward cheerleading for fission.
I’m happy with fission. It works well and is economical. It can power the whole planet. Yet there are existence proofs of people living happy MODERN lives with electricity from nothing more than wind and solar. Yes, converting Britain (or any other established modern energy grid) would be a royal PITA, and not the best ECONOMICAL choice; but that does not mean the alternatives do not provide usable energy and are simply trash.
Especially in places like the U.S.A. with a continental scale grid, wind can be effectively integrated with little issue up to about 10% and with minor complexity up to about 20%. In addition to pumped water storage, one can use pumped AIR storage in giant underground cavern / tanks (probably not suited to the UK – we have salt domes…) Wave power is not Tidal, and it is much more dispatchable. A significant percentage of wave power could be integrated into the UK grid with few issues to resolve. Similar potential solutions are available for many other ‘alternatives’ and different places have different best mixes to use.
With that said: All this would cost a great deal of money. Frankly, putting in place enough secondary batteries and pumped storage and … to make up for wind being flakey on a modest sized northern atlantic island is incredibly wasteful. So you really need to distinguish TECHNICAL solutions from ECONOMIC solutions. On a technical basis, there are many things we can do. There is not energy shortage and there never will be.
It is on the economic scale that the battle is fought and the winners chosen. This is where governments go wrong. They choose a technical solution. Markets choose economic solutions. Markets do the better job of integrating all factors. Governments listen to pressure groups and biased agendas.
On an economic basis, we can say that a little wind mixes well with a little tidal and a modest amount of wave and in sunny climates a fair amount of solar power. We can also say that coal and fission beat the pants off all the alternatives for massive base load power and for most swing power. Natural gas dominates the grid peaking power (though in some locations Diesel electric does better – i.e. Alaska away from a nat gas line).
The point? There Is No One Answer. If varies by nation, by geography, by fuel market, by individual home. (If I’m more than one or two power poles away from the grid it is cheaper to build a wind / solar system with battery storage than to pay $10,000 / pole for them to be installed…) These kinds of mixed product solutions are handled DISMALLY by governments, by commissions (Truth Commissions or otherwise), and by groups of experts reaching a consensus. They are handled very well by a market based system.
So we have a town in Alaska where the entire town is on a giant battery backup system. Why? Lose power mid winter, you die. Fast. France is up to their eyeballs in fission having little else. Saudi uses oil to desalt sea water. I have a standby gasoline generator. California has wind farms and geothermal actively contributing to our needs (along with a big pot of fission, hydroelectric and some pumped storage). Iceland uses massive quantities of geothermal because they have it in abundance. The list goes on for many pages.
The only major mistake is to look for The One True Answer. Because there is none.
The minor mistake is to disparage other energy sources as Not The One True Answer. Nothing is, so everything falls to that axe.
So please accept that there are a great many solutions that all can contribute, but not in all places or for all peoples. Step back and ask for each place: What works best here, for them? A nobody need ever be cold and in the dark. Ever.
Hi
This post is in reply to a statement by Roger Sewell about the high costs of Nuclear, Generation by individual States after his analysis of EIA Data. My analysis of the same data base(EIA over several years) indicate that his conclusion is highly suspect. For example Illinois, receives about 50% of their electricity from Nuclear Power Generation (Exelon Energy/Commonwealth Edison). The retail cost of electricty in Illinois is a bit less than the average of all the states. Hawaii has the highest retail rates ( mostly oil generation), and Idaho the cheapest (hydroelectric). The states with the cheapest rates are mostly powered by coal, whereas the states with the highest rates, have a very strong green movement.
anna v,
I wish I had time right now to respond properly, but I don’t. Basically, the French subsidize their nukes, and sell it because they must since nuclear power does not have good load-following capability. French nuclear power is one of the greatest cons of all time.