Holocene, historic and recent global temperatures from temperature proxies.
Guest post by: Frank Lansner, civil engineer, biotechnology
NOTE: Link to PDF of this article is HERE
In the climate debate, the temperatures of the past are used to determine if the present temperatures are unique and alarming. Any viewpoint can be supported by choosing specific science papers as reference
This paper is one of many attempts to give a realistic overview of the actual messages we get from the temperature proxies.
(“Temperature proxy”: Past temperatures reconstructed from samples using a row of techniques.
The “Spaghetti graphs” in the following gives an impression of the huge variability among the datasets. The essence of each graphic is the major trends. To enable display of multiple data series it was often necessary to interpolate temperature values to the specific years used in graphics.
To avoid most calibration problems, I have set specific years to zero for the different graphs I chose a year where practically all graphs has data, and no further calibration needed. In few cases I have calibrated from 1980-1990-2000 using UAH trend of approx. +0,1K/decade.)
Recent temperature proxies – 120 years

Fig 1: 10 multi proxies shown for the 20´th century. In addition 14 temperature proxy datasets. The black curve shows average of the 14 datasets as 1 multi proxy. This multi proxy + the 10 of the most used bigger multi-proxy series is the basis for the WHITE graph: “Average of 11 multi proxies”.
The temperature proxies does not show strong net warming since around 1940. In fact, proxy data does not show any warming since 1940. This is no news, it has been recognised for example here:
http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/res/fac/trl/downloads/Publications/divergence2007.pdf
The authors call the missing global warming in proxies for “The Divergence problem”. And they try to give reasons for this problem using characteristics of trees. But since other proxies than using tree ring proxies also indicates no global warming after around 1940, the problem seems not related with tree rings measurements.
“The divergence problem”:

Fig 2: The “divergence problem”.
The “All China” multi proxy: A reliable work where 8 regions of China where studied and then yield the final China multi proxy temperature line. The “All USA”, NOAA raw, is the official measured USA temperatures minus the official correction, that is, the raw USA temperature dataset. I find it stunning how close All-China and All-USA matches each other, see fig 2! (- a dataset of measured temperature compared to a dataset of proxies). And unlike GISS 2009, the Northern Hemisphere temperature set of 1976 supports the raw trends of US and China. Several of the multi proxy series have been smoothed with a “50 year weighted Gaussian filter” etc. and therefore any bigger dive around 1970 could not be seen in the multi proxy graph.
We see a divergence after 1950 between:
- GISS 2009 vs. Average of the multi proxies, that is, the temperature evidence in the ground and trees.
- GISS 2009 vs. USA, CHINA and NH temperatures
- GISS 2009 vs. Solar activity.
So, at least when comparing with mostly raw datasets, the GISS 2009 dataset could seem to be the source of “the divergence problem” – “the outlier”. Problems for the GISS data set might be incorrect adjustments, problems with UHI and poor measuring sites, see www.surfacestations.org!!
The “divergence problem” also seems to vanish when using satellite data (UAH/RSS) in stead of GISS data:

Fig 3: A: Briffa´s 2001 illustration of tree ring proxies combined with the GISS dataset as “Observations” (as the adjusted GISS temperatures are called). B: Same, however this time “Observations” are raw satellite data UAH from 1980 – 2000 with a slope of 0,1K/decade.
There is no divergence problem when using satellite temperature data as “Observations”. We now have total compliance between proxy data and modern temperature measurements stating: No net warming since around 1940-50.
Historic temperature proxies – 1200 years
For this analysis 33 data sets was used. The first that strikes you when working with historic temperature proxies is the apparent chaos of data. However, after keying in 6-8 data sets the well known features “Middle age warm period” and “The little Ice Age” becomes clear. Keying in the rest of datasets doesn’t change much.
First, take a good look at the period 1900 to 2000..
Notice how these 33 datasets confirms the trends from fig 1, the recent temperature proxies. We can conclude that we have a good ability to reproduce the result quite accurate with quite different datasets, and thus, neither of the graphs ( fig 1 and fig 4) are likely to reflect “random” results. All data evidence used in fig 1. + fig 4. actually suggests that today’s temperatures resemble the temperatures of 1940-50. Yes, a divergence problem for the temperature data from GISS and Hadcrut.

Fig 4: Historic temperature proxy data. Practically all methods and regions of the globe are represented.
6 of the data sets originate from tree ring data.
We see the Medieval Warm Period apparently ongoing already in year 800 and goes on for 5-600 years. First around year 1400 the Little Ice Age really takes over. It was around year 1400 the Vikings left the freezing Greenland.
From year 800 to year 1300 temperatures appears around 0,3 K higher than today. And from around year 1400 to 1900 temperatures appears to be are around 0,4 K lower than today. A difference from MWP to LIA of 0,7 K in average globally. (Max difference approx 1,1 K),
We will return to these historic data later, but lets first take a look even further back in time.
Holocene temperature proxies – 12000 years
For this analysis 29 long datasets where used. All graphs are calibrated to zero for year 1000.
First focus on years 800 to 2000…
Once again we see a reproduced trend between 2 different data sets. And again, the accuracy is nice. The MWP here appears almost 0,8 K degrees celcius warmer than the LIA, very close to what we saw it on fig 4, the historic data 0,7K. This once again confirms the impressing usefulness of data despite the chaotic and random appearance. There is however a tiny difference between the 2 graphs, around 0,1K. But it should be noted, that for the Holocene temperatures, no tree ring data was used. According to Loehle 2007, tree ring data tends to suppress the MWP somewhat. This we will return to.

Fig 5: Holocene temperature data.
The data point for year 2000 are based on too few datasets to be really trustworthy. Therefore I have inserted the red star where I use the value of todays temperature taken from fig 4, historic temperatures. By doing so, temperature for year 2000 got 0,2 K warmer than from Holocene data.
Fig 5 also shows that the whole debate about MWP is irrelevant. Imagine there was no MWP. Practically ALL of the Holocene period the eath appears to be between 0,5 and 1,5 K warmer than today. The little ice age does resemble a mini ice age or at least it appears to be the coldest period in over 10.000 years.
Finally, the overall picture from the graph is an almost perfect mathematical curve that tops around 5-6000 years ago. These Data tells the story quite clear: We are on a down trend in temperatures globally, we should not fear warmth by now. How much lower can the temperatures on earth go before we reach a tipping point to much colder temperatures at earth?
Medieval warm period
Arguments against the MWP often focus on the “fact” that the warmer temperatures from that period are a phenomenon exclusively to have appeared on the northern hemisphere.
Fortunately, the results from fig 4 and fig 5 shows an excellent match for the period year 800 to year 2000. It thus makes very good sense to combine the datasets and then obtain a better data foundation to analyse the MWP.
Datasets from fig 4 and fig 5 combined, a northern/southern hemisphere display of the Medieval Warm Period:

Fig 6: Historic temperatures, North and south hemispheres separated. Let’s first see what the graph actually says, very roughly:
NH MWP, 42 datasets:
Ongoing in year 800, temperatures mostly 0,3-0,4 K higher than today.
The temperature creeps below today’s level and ends around year 1300.
SH MWP, 13 datasets:
Ongoing in year 800, temperatures mostly 0,2-0,3 K higher than today.
The temperature creeps below today’s level and ends around year 1350.
Northern hemisphere is still much better represented than the southern hemisphere, so what can we conclude on this ground? Can we conclude anything?
On this ground I find it safe to accept the NH MWP approximately as described above.
To accept that globally there where no MWP, we will have to accept the following:
The 2 hemispheres have the ability to maintain a quite different temperature development for at least 500 years and did so from year 800 to year 1300.
What can we demand to accept this idea? We can demand solid evidence.
Anyone claiming the above must present solid evidence for a MEDIEVAL COLD PERIOD on the southern hemisphere.
IF data showed that the southern hemisphere had a MCP where temperatures for 500 years was 0,3-0,4 degrees colder than today, would this “kill” the MWP? Certainly not. Because, then we would have had 500 years with global temperatures just like today globally… – In that case, certainly no reason to be alarmed about the temperatures today.
No, if today’s temperatures should be alarmingly warm, the S. hemisphere temperature should show a very strong MCP at least 0,4 degrees colder than today in the 500 year period.
Is there ANY indication of a 500-year strong MCP in the southern hemisphere indicated in the data above? No, certainly not. There are not that many SH data, but still, there is not the slightest indication of a strong MCP on the S. Hemisphere.
Until the strong 500 year long MCP on SH has been proven, there is nothing that shakes the acceptance of a global MWP with temperatures resembling or higher than today’s temperatures.
I believe a massive use of tree ring graphs exclusively might show a strong southern MCP. In this case, the idea that there is no MWP globally is dependent on only on one specific method of making temperature proxies, tree rings. Tree rings are 1 of at least 20 different methods to measure temperatures of the past. As such, they should never dominate the measurements.
The South pole and MWP:
While examining temperature proxies, I found some odd results:

Fig 7: -A stunning mismatch between 2 Antarctic data series.
Not only are they both from Antarctica, but they are both from near the south pole. The well known “MWP-signature” has found its way not only to the Southern hemisphere, but to the south pole. But in the near by Vostok location, for many centuries, there has been absolutely no sign of the MWP? Obviously this is absurd, so at least one of the two results is not accurate.
The black graph (from “Remote Plateau”) has a resolution of 1 – 3 years per sample, excellent. The blue graph (vostok) has approx 23 years between data points. Both series should be considered fine quality then.
How likely is it, that the “MWP/LIA-signature” has come up in “Remote plateau” (black graph) data by a coincidence? When it has also been spotted many other places on the SH? See fig 6: The Vostok data has a dotted red line. How well does vostok data then fit the rest of the Southern hemisphere data?
The use of vostok data also moves the SH temperature profile away from the NH average.
Tree rings
If the MWP only disappears using one a specific measuring method, the idea as well as the method is invalid.
Proxy temperature data from tree rings are easy to get, but the quality?
Craig Loehle: “There are reasons to believe that tree ring data may not capture long-term climate changes”.
Indeed. A good warm year will obviously help a tree growing, but decades of increasing temperatures could affect the whole area so for example more trees might be able to survive, the root nets would only be able to grow to some extend for other trees etc.
Example: Imagine that a warming after decades is accompanied by 10% more trees surviving in an area and eventually demands their “place in the sun”. By measuring tree rings for an individual tree you are not measuring the overall tree growth of the area. And measuring 10.000 trees does not change anything as all trees would have the same problem. Measuring tree pollen or isotopes etc in sediment cores avoids these problems and it makes me wonder how come so much energy has been used for tree ring analyses.
Selective adjustments?
Many kinds of adjustments are used in connection with climate results. But one adjustment I haven’t heard of is the down-adjustment of recent temperatures from temperature proxy data due to CO2-induced extra growth. If the CO2 level is indeed extraordinary high, then it is a fact that plants grow markedly more. And they grow at higher altitude etc.
Here is an impressing overview of plant response to extra CO2 in the atmosphere:
http://www.co2science.org/data/plant_growth/dry/dry_subject_p.php
I have chosen the letter P for the link since several tree ring analysis are made for pine trees. Check the responses for pine trees when adding extra CO2.
Therefore any temperature proxy based on plant growth should be adjusted down in times of high CO2. Otherwise you will measure CO2 and not heat. But this obvious kind of adjustment seems not to happen? Or? Can it really be, that the crew of alarmists so happy for adjusting for all kinds of tiny issues, simply don’t adjust when there is a really good reason to do so?

Fig 8: Historic temperature proxy data with focus on tree ring-method. In the analyses I have used, it turned out that 7 of 55 datasets where from tree rings. On this figure, these 7 datasets actually does seem to differ in trend from all the rest. The 7 tree ring datasets suggests no MWP, in fact, they suggest that the MWP was 0,3-0,4 K COLDER than today’s temperatures. Quite the opposite result than the majority of datasets concerning MWP.
On might say that these 7 datasets are too little a basis for any conclusion, and therefore I have included a bigger tree ring multi proxi, “Esper et al 2002” and the trend from the 7 tree ring datasets are confirmed:
Unlike all other methods, tree rings shows no warm MWP.
Example, the European Alps:

Fig 9: Here from fig 4, we have 2 different temperatures in the same area, the European Alps.
Quite like Antarctica, we have 2 datasets, one showing the well known “MWP/LIA-signature” and one not showing this. Both cannot be correct, so we know that at least one of the datasets is faulty.
In addition, these measurements where taken in the middle of Europe where we have an overwhelming amount of non-tree temperature proxy datasets confirming a very warm MWP.
Therefore, if the tree ring method was useful, we definitely should see a warm MWP from tree ring data in Europe. But we don’t. And unless all the other temperature proxy methods just shows a very warm MWP in Europe by coincidence, the tree ring method does appear to be the faulty method.
The tree graph appears flat compared to the other methods (- a “yummy” to use if you want to produce a hockey stick), but we are not here to produce a hockey stick, we seek the temperatures of the past.
Now it becomes relevant to examine jus non-tree temperature proxies (As Loehle concluded) for better accuracy:

Fig 10: The Historic temperature proxy trend based on 27 non tree ring proxies show a slightly warmer MWP than when including tree rings, fig 4. The average temperature for year 800-1400 is approx 0,4 K warmer than today, and the years 1400-1900 is around 0,4 K colder than today. So the non tree historic temperatures now gives a MWP/LIA difference of 0,8 K like the (non tree) Holocene temperatures, fig 5.
We even see “peaks” in the MWP up to 0,6K warmer than today, and now 1950 actually appears slightly warmer than today.

Fig 11: Briffa’s 2001 all tree ring proxy data, compared with non tree ring data.
First of all, I have every respect for the huge work done using tree rings. There are indeed many sources to errors (like the idea about different SH/NH temperature development etc.) – but despite all, this graph speaks a very clear language.
Here we see the 27 datasets of non-tree rings, together with the well known tree ring graphs.
It becomes clear, that the non tree rings world wide – THICK BLUE CURVE – matches extremely well in the 20’th century and all the way back to year 1450. Then exactly as the MWP starts, the tree rings and the non
tree rings simply “looses contact”.
What ever the reason for the differences between tree ring or non tree ring temperature proxies,
it becomes evident, that choosing tree rings or not is the same as choosing a MWP or not.
.
One partly explanation for this huge mismatch could be CO2. If indeed the CO2 concentration today is a lot higher in the atmosphere than it was in the MWP, then trees simply grows faster than in the MWP, apparently even though temperatures are not higher.
S
Conclusion:
– Its way too early to consider the MWP gone. There is a lot of scientific work to be done before any such conclusion has any weight. MWP disappears when using tree ring data.
– In this writing we see that 48 non tree ring temperature proxies combined shows a MWP around 0,4 K warmer than today, lasting at least 500 years.
– Besides the MWP discussion: 80-90% of the Holocene period (last 10-12.000 years) has been warmer than today. The last 6000 years, the general temperature trend has been steady cooling. The temperature levels in the Little Ice Age were the lowest in the Holocene period.
I find it relevant to study the consequences of further cooling.
– Except for strongly adjusted temperature data, there is compliance between recent temperatures measured from satellites, evidence from tree-proxies, evidence from non-tree-proxies and more showing that: It does not appear warmer today than around 1940-50.
This is in compliance with solar activity in the 20’th century.
This does not suggest a warming effect of CO2 in the atmosphere.
ome of the non-tree-ring measurement methods includes Be, O and C isotopes etc, that in some cases are more independent of changing tree growth or the like. These methods would be preferable if we wanted to clear CO2-induced errors on temperature measurements.
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Frank,
“Therefor[e] we start the UAH on a probably too high point.”
UAH is on of the best measures of global temperature for the last three decades. It is not disputed by Roy Spencer or John Christie. It is completely invalid to reject it based on the derived values from earlier proxy data!
Tom P (04:09:12) :
you are not understanding me correct.
Theres NOTHING wrong with the UAH. I was talking about the point where to start the graph in 1980, at what level.
As I said, the tree ring graphs has been 50 year averaged and therefore the dive is not as deep as without averaging. So without averaging, the starting level for the fine UAH graph shold be lower.
Then i said: SEE FIG 2.
Here you will see that NOT-averaged temperature graphs has much lower values in 1980. If you start at the 1980 levels here, a UAH at 0,4 K (if you like!!) still hardly makes 2000 warmer than 1940.
And i hope you understand, that the MWP is concluded on the basis of temperature proxies only. Its better not to mix totaly different measurements method for the most reliable result. I think this debates shows how inaccurate such an approach is from Briffas and the alarmist side.
Sod, I am puzzled by your postings. In general, you seem to be a reasonable individual, and that impression seems to be inconsistent with your statement that there is “simply no evidence” of the MWP. I wonder if I am misunderstanding you, but there is ample evidence of the MWP. And we are not talking just about Greenland. In the last few decades, glaciers in the Alps have retreated to reveal evidence of MWP flora. In the Western United States, retreating glaciers reveal remnants of trees that grew during MWP. In China, there are physical remains of MWP flora that now grow much farther south. In addition to this physical evidence, we have reconstruction on every continent and under water that shows the MWP. Therefore, I puzzled by your declaration of “no evidence.”
sod (02:38:48) : the problem with the Loehle graph is, that it ends in 1935 (NINETEEN THIRTY FIVE). that is not exactly “today”.
I don’t see how the digits “2000” read as “1935”.
Frank,
“you are not understanding me correct.
Theres NOTHING wrong with the UAH. I was talking about the point where to start the graph in 1980, at what level.”
I’m glad we agree about the validity of the UAH data – it makes sense to match the proxies to the instrumental data rather than the other way round. This gives the plot I showed earlier:
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/5131/fig11mod.png
“Then i said: SEE FIG 2. Here you will see that NOT-averaged temperature graphs has much lower values in 1980. If you start at the 1980 levels here, a UAH at 0,4 K (if you like!!) still hardly makes 2000 warmer than 1940.”
Figure 2 is very dependent on your choice of the matching year. Again the instrumental ground-based records are much more reliable than the proxies, so the evidence is that we are considerably warmer than 1940.
“And i hope you understand, that the MWP is concluded on the basis of temperature proxies only.”
I’m not sure I understand why you claim only to be using “temperature proxies”. All proxies are used to derive temperature, whether they are tree rings, ice-core or borehole measurements, though there is certainly debate about their validity. But excluding tree-ring data does not necessarily make for a more robust reconstruction. For instance, why do you think your reconstruction is markedly different from Craig Loehle’s who avoided the same tree-ring data but gets lower temperatures prior to 1400 AD?
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7035/lanservsloehle.png
I find the denial of the MWP to be disingenuous. I started looking at climate reconstructions in 1961. They all concurred with this graph well into the 1990s.: http://i39.tinypic.com/35hkz1d.jpg See the source from my post at 4/12-21:41 hrs.
Even the IPCC agreed with a similar reconstruction as late as1990 as regards the MWP. Even prior to the MWP, the Roman Period was even warmer, so was the Minoan Period. Here is an O18 reconstruction from 2007: http://i40.tinypic.com/2zgzuqv.jpg
The political need to remake CO2 into a major climate factor is apparently just like the; pick one, communists or Orwellian 1984 goverment, rewriting history to suit their political ambitions. This necessitates the elimination of any previous warming that can’t be attributed to the evil human race’s production of CO2. Thus the propagation of the Hansen/Gore/Mann/Briffa ad nauseum ‘CO2 is the only significant driver of climate’ mantra. Anthony provides a real service to humanity via this blog. His hard work and that of the contributors, as well as other skeptic sites, and input from bloggers is all we have between the on-going propaganda and science.
07:33 I submitted a comment, but it did not show as waiting for moderation, I assumed I did not post it as I was simutaneously doing some maintenance on my wife’s computer, so I tried to post it again, and got the message that it was a duplicate post, so moderator pease deleat it if true. My message still does not appear as waiting for moderation after a refresh. I am posting this as I’ve not seen this happen before. This can also be snipped as not relevent to the topic.
REPLY: Due to the links in in plus word combos it ended up in the spam filter, recovered. – Anthony
sod (02:45:06) :
we are talking about several hundred years with an ice free summer arctic.
You really sound: I have made up my mind, don’t bother me with the facts!
Have you ot heard of the greening of Greenland? Yes, the arctic had ice free summers.
the alps being glacier free. spring plants showing up in december and a massive movement of plants and animals. (many of them don t need modern man to move them)
Yes, there are trees being revealed now that the glaciers are retreating in the alps.
there simply is no evidence of such an event.
And you have a funny idea of how animal species respond to temperatures. There used to be lions in Greece during the greek cold period, back in 300BC. Humans exterminated them. A two degree change towards warmth is beneficial to plants and animals but not drastic:We have more than 20C degrees change between night and day ,and summer and winter. Animals are used to it and will expand slowly as the regions warmed and retreat as they cool. It is the food chain that is important.
Tom P (06:55:54) :
You write “….This gives the plot I showed earlier..”
Tom, see Fig, the black curve, an average of 14 proxies incl 3-5 tree rings I think. The 1980 point is around 0,45 K under todays level. On fig 2 you see Whole NH actual temp measuring reaching arouns 0,5 K under todays level in 1976. these are actual measurements of temperature. You see proxies of all china reach 0,6K under todays level. Then as I have tried to make you accept, the tree ring proxies does NOT have such a big dive. Without ANY doubt the fact that it has been 50 years averaged (!!) is making the tree ring proxy curve a lot higher in 1980.
A lot of in accurracy, yes, but fact is, the 1980 point from where the UAH is started IS to high, it only goes down to – 0,2K.
If we don’t know the starting point for the UAH, this talk is meaningless.
Lets assume that the true starting point is in between the 14 proxies (-0,45K) and the averages tree ring proxy (-0,2K). That gives a starting point -0,32 K.
And if we accept UAH rise in temp at 0,3K from 1980 (-0,32) til today (even though UAH today is only 0,2K warmer than 1980 http://www.climate-movie.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/uah_global.gif ) then there is still not warmer today than the + 0,02 K in 1945. Then we are still 0,04 K under 1945.
Tom, its really an error that you don’t accept that the starting point is highly affected of a 50 average (!!!). And you don’t mention it, don’t you just ignore this basis.
So I do not at all agree with you graph.
Then you write: “Figure 2 is very dependent on your choice of the matching year.”
No, Tom, it is not. The Giss graph has far higher temperatures today than 1940-50. The other graphs has not higher temps today than 1940-50. It doesn’t go away by chosen another year to zero point. And never mind what you do, then all the other graphs has much lower 1980 value than 2000 value for temp. Its not dependent on my zero point. The divergence problem is there, not my invention.
I wrote to you, Tom:
“And i hope you understand, that the MWP is concluded on the basis of temperature proxies only.”
You write: “I’m not sure I understand why you claim only to be using “temperature proxies”. All proxies are used to derive temperature, whether they are tree rings, ice-core or borehole measurements, though there is certainly debate about their validity. But excluding tree-ring data does not necessarily make for a more robust reconstruction. For instance, why do you think your reconstruction is markedly different from Craig Loehle’s who avoided the same tree-ring data but gets lower temperatures prior to 1400 AD?”
Tom, My MWP graphs every last one are based on Proxies and nothing else. Your focus on my little stunt with the UAH graph thus In no way can change anything what so ever.
Then you mention tree rings. Tom, first I got a strong long MWP including 7 tree ring graphs. Then I got a strong long MWP without tree rings. Your point?
Yes the MWP is bigger without tree ring use.
Then you drag in Loehles results, proving what? Loehle has to a large extend used the datasets Moberg used, just without tree rings, and then he added some extra sets, ending on 18 datasets. In my analysis I have concluded MWP using up to 55 datasets, which where then only a few used also by Moberg. It made a difference, that’s just a fact.
But for you to deny the results of 55 proxies, you must come up with MORE than 55 proxies showing the exact opposite, that there was a Medieval Cold Period. Can you do that? No, that not possible I can assure you. I have seen SO many datasets, and theres just not that kind of datasets out there.
Administrator: sorry for the long writing, i will try to make it shorter next time.
Steve Keohane (07:31:16) :
Very true, Steve. This blind denial of MWP is really sad for science.
K.R. Frank
Frank,
“If we don’t know the starting point for the UAH, this talk is meaningless.”
But we do, as the UAH data has been carefully calibrated to be consistent with the ground data. If you wish to dispute this, please take up the matter with Roy Spencer and John Christy.
“…its really an error that you don’t accept that the starting point is highly affected of a 50 average (!!!).”
No – you cannot shift thermometer or satellite data to fit the proxies, how ever many proxies you have. Each proxy is calibrated to temperature so you are removing any solid ground for your analysis if you then adjust the satellite or thermometer temperatures on the basis of the proxies.
“My MWP graphs every last one are based on Proxies and nothing else.”
So are everyone else’s! It would have been good to have some diligent monks recording temperatures, but the thermometer was only invented in the 17th century!
The choice of proxies is a fraught one, and there has been much ink split on how to statistically validate one choice above another. Your results are considerably out of agreement with the next closest reconstruction published by Loehle. Your claim is that you were using a greater number, and therefore your result is better than the rest. But you will have a hard task convincing scientists of very different viewpoints of this unless you can justify how each proxy was derived, the weighting you gave to it, and do a thorough error analysis.
It’s up to you to decide if such an effort is worthwhile.
Tom P (09:53:04) Any given thermometer will give a temperature to within a couple of degrees. Furthermore, a thermometer that is correct at 20 F can be off at 60 F. This is because the diameter of the mercury column can vary. The accuracy of drawing the glass tube has been good for how long, and just how good is it? We are talking about an allegedly devastating increase in temperature of a fraction of a degree of warming today. If the satellites are calibrated to the GISS results, they lose their provenance for an absolute accurate reading, because GISS is a joke at best. Its temperatures are adjusted upward of late when they should be adjusted down to account for UHI, and the past is lowered to make the modern increase seem more dramatic than it is. This means the starting point (calibration point) is artificially high. I think that is Frank’s point.
Here is GISS 1999 vs. 2008: http://i42.tinypic.com/vpx303.jpg
Here are the adjustments: http://i42.tinypic.com/2luqma8.jpg
Tom P (09:53:04) :
Your claim is that you were using a greater number, and therefore your result is better than the rest. But you will have a hard task convincing scientists of very different viewpoints of this unless you can justify how each proxy was derived, the weighting you gave to it, and do a thorough error analysis.
I have to laugh at this. Have you read the IPCC reports, the physics justifications?
There is absolutely no error analysis, and all those spaghetti graphs are the modeler’s estimate of what happens to their model once they fiddle the parameters to fit the temperature curves and they change the initial conditions of the time development! In chapter 8 they even formally say they have no likelihood functions for the mess.
So my conclusion is that climate “science” does not do a thorough error analysis, just a hand waving one.
I am sure that when this is presented to be published an error analysis of the way the proxies have been combined , that is what is the error bar of the combined curves, is sine qua non. In principle, unless some of the proxies have huge error bars, the more, the merrier.
Frank, I don’t know why you bother with Tom P or Sod. They obviously hold religiously to the dogma and their ideas will not be moved by science. If by responding to them, more information re the data came to light, then fine. However, as I read it you are having to spin your wheels in the muck. Your time is too valuable for that. I know I was looking forward to reading more comments on this site, but my time is too valuable to spend on reading repetitive attempts to convince those who will not be convinced. They are trolls.
Also, there is so much evidence for the MWP that anyone who denies its existence as a warm period on Earth doesn’t deserve the efforts of this extradorinarily fine blog.
Tom…
The dataset of treeproxies has the paricular 1980 value because it was 50 years smoothed. If not 50 year smoothed it would have had another value.
If you chose NOT to calibrate so that both datasets has same value in 1980, then you cannot compare the 2 datasets. As simple as that.
Sod, I am puzzled by your postings. In general, you seem to be a reasonable individual, and that impression seems to be inconsistent with your statement that there is “simply no evidence” of the MWP. I wonder if I am misunderstanding you, but there is ample evidence of the MWP.
sorry, i think i was unclear: we don t have (or at least i haven t seen) any evidence of a 500 years period (MWP) with temperatures (mostly and significantly) above “today”.
we witness the changes on Flora and fauna that the recent temperature increases produce, and we measure them.
a 500 year MWP would produce a similar change to fauna and flora PLUS additional change for the longer period PLUS additional change for the extra temperature. (MINUS the additional changes that were caused by modern humans. i am aware that those exist)
i am aware of findings in greenland, and under alp glaciers. but such a massive time would leave massive evidence.
i live in south germany. a lack of snow and winter freeze makes the difference between apples or peaches growing on trees here. i am quite sure, that over 500 years somebody would have noticed it…
I don’t see how the digits “2000″ read as “1935″.
this is from the Loehle paper:
With the corrected dating, the number of series for which data is available
drops from 11 to 8 in 1935, so that subsequent values of the reconstruction would be based on less than half the total number of series, and hence would have greatlydecreased accuracy. Accordingly, the corrected estimates only run from 16 AD to 1935 AD, rather than to 1980 as in Loehle (2007).
i am pretty sure that the same would happen to these “spaghettis”, if anyone took a closer look.
Any given thermometer will give a temperature to within a couple of degrees.
thermometers are pretty accurate. (at least to the digit after the comma). and satellites are not calibrated by GISS data. (they don t measure the same thing actually)
anna v,
“There is absolutely no error analysis.”
I don’t think you’ve been keeping up with the literature – there’s a huge amount. For example:
“Proxy-based Northern Hemisphere surface temperature reconstructions: Sensitivity to method” S Rutherford, ME Mann, TJ Osborn, RS Bradley, KR … Journal of Climate, 2005: http://www.realclimate.org/RuthetalJClim2004.pdf
“Testing the fidelity of methods used in proxy-based reconstructions of past climate” ME Mann, S Rutherford, E Wahl, C Ammann – Journal of Climate, 2005: http://holocene.meteo.psu.edu/shared/articles/MRWA-JClimate05.pdf
“Robust estimation of background noise and signal detection in climatic time series” Michael E. Mann and Jonathan M. Lees – Earth and Environmental Science 1997: http://www.springerlink.com/content/nk12h33m6r9t6j58/
“Robustness of proxy-based climate field reconstruction methods” Michael E. Mann, Scott Rutherford,Eugene Wahl,and Caspar Ammann – J. Geo.Res. 2007: http://holocene.meteo.psu.edu/shared/articles/MRWA-JGR07.pdf
etc.
There was a workshop on just this topic at the International Centre for Theoretical Physics in Trieste last year “Representing and reducing uncertainties in high-resolution proxy climate data”. From that workshop:
“Each high-resolution proxy type is subject to a unique combination of uncertainties that obscures the climate signals of interest. Such uncertainties must be identified, quantified, and ultimately minimized in order to maximize the potential of high-resolution proxy data.”
You add:
“In principle, unless some of the proxies have huge error bars, the more, the merrier.”
Agreed, but some proxies do indeed have large error bars so adding them in willy nilly will not improve the result. That is why researchers in this area are quite careful what they include and have used smaller datasets than Frank – bigger is not always better.
pyromancer76 (12:08:18) :
Agree. I see no will to understand at all.
K.R. Frank
Tom P (13:00:53) :
I don’t think you’ve been keeping up with the literature – there’s a huge amount. For example:
“Proxy-based Northern Hemisphere surface temperature reconstructions: Sensitivity to method” S Rutherford, ME Mann, TJ Osborn, RS Bradley, KR … Journal of Climate, 2005: http://www.realclimate.org/RuthetalJClim2004.pdf
“Testing the fidelity of methods used in proxy-based reconstructions of past climate” ME Mann, S Rutherford, E Wahl, C Ammann – Journal of Climate, 2005: http://holocene.meteo.psu.edu/shared/articles/MRWA-JClimate05.pdf
“Robust estimation of background noise and signal detection in climatic time series” Michael E. Mann and Jonathan M. Lees – Earth and Environmental Science 1997: http://www.springerlink.com/content/nk12h33m6r9t6j58/
“Robustness of proxy-based climate field reconstruction methods” Michael E. Mann, Scott Rutherford,Eugene Wahl,and Caspar Ammann – J. Geo.Res. 2007: http://holocene.meteo.psu.edu/shared/articles/MRWA-JGR07.pdf
All by Mann, who has problems with his own work. Don’t you think that these might just be a circle jerk? ie. Mann is involved with reviewing the robustness of his own work or finding fault with anything that would refute his findings? Any others without Mann?
Tom, I have been very careful what datasets i used. It appears the tree ring datasets are not good enough to use, but besides that i have no reason to use far out datasets. Waste of time.
Now that you claim i use faulty datasets, can you give a list of 5-10 datasets i should not have used? I would like to see that.
Pete,
As Mann has written the some of the most cited work in this area, it would be remiss to ignore it. A brief selection of extensive other work includes:
“Reconstructing Past Climate from Noisy Data” Hans von Storch, Eduardo Zorita, Julie M. Jones, Yegor Dimitriev, Fidel González-Rouco, Simon F. B. Tett – Science: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/306/5696/679
“Globality and optimality in climate field reconstructions from proxy data”
MN Evans, A Kaplan, MA Cane, R Villalba – Interhemispheric climate linkages, 2001 – http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.31.3895&rep=rep1&type=pdf
“A kernel-based Bayesian approach to climatic reconstruction”
I Robertson, D Lucy, L Baxter, AM Pollard – The Holocene, 1999 – http://hol.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/9/4/495
Frank,
“Now that you claim i use faulty datasets, can you give a list of 5-10 datasets i should not have used?”
I’m not suggesting you either reject as faulty any particular sets, rather that you indicate how your choice adds to the signal rather than the noise, as has been done with other reconstructions in the analysis contained in the papers above.
pyromancer76 (12:08:18) :
Frank, I don’t know why you bother with Tom P or Sod. They obviously hold religiously to the dogma and their ideas will not be moved by science.
Worst of it is they and their patrons are trying to erase the scientific knowledge accumulated from two centuries back.
Sod wrote: “i live in south germany. a lack of snow and winter freeze makes the difference between apples or peaches growing on trees here. i am quite sure, that over 500 years somebody would have noticed it…”
Wait a few years brother and you will get all the snow that you ever wanted and then [unfortunately] you will not have to worry about apples and peaches for sure…
Frank….agreed with Pyromancer and Nasif…..don’t cast your pearls before swine.
In a matter of years….Mother Nature is going to let her opinion be known….and whoever is wrong….well….Mother Nature wins either way.
So no sense debating with sophists. They are impossible to argue with.
May PURE science continue….free from political-ideologues [either way] who have nothing better to do with their time than hijack websites with countless manipulative words.
Back to topic….I post here a post from earlier that got lost in the fray…next post.
Chris
Norfolk, VA, USA
Frank,
There is absolutely nothing wrong with your paper. TomP does not disagree with anything you have done. He only disagrees with the conclusions you have reached. If you had reached the proper conclusions you would have heard not even one tiny peep from Tom.
Posted this earlier:
Absolutely brilliant work, Frank. Thank you.
This paper should be required reading for every college student, every faculty member, every high school science class, every teacher, every member of congress, every journalist and every employee of NASA, NOAA, CPC, and so on….
About three times a week I run through First Landing State Park, at the “end” of my corner of the world, situated at the confluence of the mighty Chesapeake Bay and the Atlantic Ocean [called First Landing because that is where the Jamestown Settlers landed in 1607–ironically in one of the years that some say was the coldest in the LIA–and where many of the Jamestown settlers starved through a difficult winter].
Even more ironic are the “hills” in the park. This is the flat coastal plain so there should be no hills as there is no tectonic action around to be found.
On the “hills” are an interesting mix of northern hardwoods such as beech and maple, and subtropical loblolly pines and spanish moss.
This park is an extraordinary clash of zones which show prima facie evidence of the ebbs and flows of Earth’s climate both in the SHORT RUN [multidecadal] and in the LONG RUN:
In the warm AMO and PDO combination…the good ole’ south Scarlet O’Hara “well shuck-my-corn ya’ll and put some cheese in my grits” plantation advance of spanish moss, tupelo trees, and copperhead snakes reigns supreme.
When those oscillations shift negative, the beech, blueberries, and sugar maples take over on the “hills.”
Now in the LONGER RUN….peer back into the earlier Holocene, just about 5,000 years ago, and we see these “hills” were not hills at all.
They are former waterfront sand dunes…when sea levels were higher around than they are now.
This all occurred in the Biblical times before there were enough humans to produce the CO2 to cause the supposed “warming”……which in the grand 10,000 year scheme of things…is not showing warming at all….anyway.
Thanks again Frank…..this work is another brilliant nail in the coffin for the new world religion of the International Church of the A.G.W.
Speaking of coffins….every time when I think of that first Jamestown winter in 1607 where people froze and starved to death…I SHUDDER to think that the current world figures and organizations….Obama, Holdren, Hansen, NASA, the UK Met, et al….seem to be JUST as ill-prepared for such a turn in the climate if that is the direction things are going….
Chris
Norfolk, VA, USA