Making Holocene Spaghetti Sauce by Proxy

Holocene, historic and recent global temperatures from temperature proxies.

Guest post by: Frank Lansner, civil engineer, biotechnology

NOTE: Link to PDF of this article is HERE

In the climate debate, the temperatures of the past are used to determine if the present temperatures are unique and alarming. Any viewpoint can be supported by choosing specific science papers as reference

This paper is one of many attempts to give a realistic overview of the actual messages we get from the temperature proxies.

(“Temperature proxy”: Past temperatures reconstructed from samples using a row of techniques.

The “Spaghetti graphs” in the following gives an impression of the huge variability among the datasets. The essence of each graphic is the major trends. To enable display of multiple data series it was often necessary to interpolate temperature values to the specific years used in graphics.

To avoid most calibration problems, I have set specific years to zero for the different graphs I chose a year where practically all graphs has data, and no further calibration needed. In few cases I have calibrated from 1980-1990-2000 using UAH trend of approx. +0,1K/decade.)

Recent temperature proxies – 120 years

lanser_holocene_figure1
click for a larger image

Fig 1: 10 multi proxies shown for the 20´th century. In addition 14 temperature proxy datasets. The black curve shows average of the 14 datasets as 1 multi proxy. This multi proxy + the 10 of the most used bigger multi-proxy series is the basis for the WHITE graph: “Average of 11 multi proxies”.

The temperature proxies does not show strong net warming since around 1940. In fact, proxy data does not show any warming since 1940. This is no news, it has been recognised for example here:

http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/res/fac/trl/downloads/Publications/divergence2007.pdf

The authors call the missing global warming in proxies for “The Divergence problem”. And they try to give reasons for this problem using characteristics of trees. But since other proxies than using tree ring proxies also indicates no global warming after around 1940, the problem seems not related with tree rings measurements.

The divergence problem”:

lanser_holocene_figure2
click for a larger image

Fig 2: The “divergence problem”.

The “All China” multi proxy: A reliable work where 8 regions of China where studied and then yield the final China multi proxy temperature line. The “All USA”, NOAA raw, is the official measured USA temperatures minus the official correction, that is, the raw USA temperature dataset. I find it stunning how close All-China and All-USA matches each other, see fig 2! (- a dataset of measured temperature compared to a dataset of proxies). And unlike GISS 2009, the Northern Hemisphere temperature set of 1976 supports the raw trends of US and China. Several of the multi proxy series have been smoothed with a “50 year weighted Gaussian filter” etc. and therefore any bigger dive around 1970 could not be seen in the multi proxy graph.

We see a divergence after 1950 between:

  • GISS 2009 vs. Average of the multi proxies, that is, the temperature evidence in the ground and trees.
  • GISS 2009 vs. USA, CHINA and NH temperatures
  • GISS 2009 vs. Solar activity.

So, at least when comparing with mostly raw datasets, the GISS 2009 dataset could seem to be the source of “the divergence problem” – “the outlier”. Problems for the GISS data set might be incorrect adjustments, problems with UHI and poor measuring sites, see www.surfacestations.org!!

The “divergence problem” also seems to vanish when using satellite data (UAH/RSS) in stead of GISS data:

click for a larger image
click for a larger image

Fig 3: A: Briffa´s 2001 illustration of tree ring proxies combined with the GISS dataset as “Observations” (as the adjusted GISS temperatures are called). B: Same, however this time “Observations” are raw satellite data UAH from 1980 – 2000 with a slope of 0,1K/decade.

There is no divergence problem when using satellite temperature data as “Observations”. We now have total compliance between proxy data and modern temperature measurements stating: No net warming since around 1940-50.

Historic temperature proxies – 1200 years

For this analysis 33 data sets was used. The first that strikes you when working with historic temperature proxies is the apparent chaos of data. However, after keying in 6-8 data sets the well known features “Middle age warm period” and “The little Ice Age” becomes clear. Keying in the rest of datasets doesn’t change much.

First, take a good look at the period 1900 to 2000..

Notice how these 33 datasets confirms the trends from fig 1, the recent temperature proxies. We can conclude that we have a good ability to reproduce the result quite accurate with quite different datasets, and thus, neither of the graphs ( fig 1 and fig 4) are likely to reflect “random” results. All data evidence used in fig 1. + fig 4. actually suggests that today’s temperatures resemble the temperatures of 1940-50. Yes, a divergence problem for the temperature data from GISS and Hadcrut.

click for a larger image
click for a larger image

Fig 4: Historic temperature proxy data. Practically all methods and regions of the globe are represented.

6 of the data sets originate from tree ring data.

We see the Medieval Warm Period apparently ongoing already in year 800 and goes on for 5-600 years. First around year 1400 the Little Ice Age really takes over. It was around year 1400 the Vikings left the freezing Greenland.

From year 800 to year 1300 temperatures appears around 0,3 K higher than today. And from around year 1400 to 1900 temperatures appears to be are around 0,4 K lower than today. A difference from MWP to LIA of 0,7 K in average globally. (Max difference approx 1,1 K),

We will return to these historic data later, but lets first take a look even further back in time.

Holocene temperature proxies – 12000 years

For this analysis 29 long datasets where used. All graphs are calibrated to zero for year 1000.

First focus on years 800 to 2000…

Once again we see a reproduced trend between 2 different data sets. And again, the accuracy is nice. The MWP here appears almost 0,8 K degrees celcius warmer than the LIA, very close to what we saw it on fig 4, the historic data 0,7K. This once again confirms the impressing usefulness of data despite the chaotic and random appearance. There is however a tiny difference between the 2 graphs, around 0,1K. But it should be noted, that for the Holocene temperatures, no tree ring data was used. According to Loehle 2007, tree ring data tends to suppress the MWP somewhat. This we will return to.

lanser_holocene_figure5
click for a larger image

Fig 5: Holocene temperature data.

The data point for year 2000 are based on too few datasets to be really trustworthy. Therefore I have inserted the red star where I use the value of todays temperature taken from fig 4, historic temperatures. By doing so, temperature for year 2000 got 0,2 K warmer than from Holocene data.

Fig 5 also shows that the whole debate about MWP is irrelevant. Imagine there was no MWP. Practically ALL of the Holocene period the eath appears to be between 0,5 and 1,5 K warmer than today. The little ice age does resemble a mini ice age or at least it appears to be the coldest period in over 10.000 years.

Finally, the overall picture from the graph is an almost perfect mathematical curve that tops around 5-6000 years ago. These Data tells the story quite clear: We are on a down trend in temperatures globally, we should not fear warmth by now. How much lower can the temperatures on earth go before we reach a tipping point to much colder temperatures at earth?

Medieval warm period

Arguments against the MWP often focus on the “fact” that the warmer temperatures from that period are a phenomenon exclusively to have appeared on the northern hemisphere.

Fortunately, the results from fig 4 and fig 5 shows an excellent match for the period year 800 to year 2000. It thus makes very good sense to combine the datasets and then obtain a better data foundation to analyse the MWP.

Datasets from fig 4 and fig 5 combined, a northern/southern hemisphere display of the Medieval Warm Period:

click for a larger image
click for a larger image

Fig 6: Historic temperatures, North and south hemispheres separated. Let’s first see what the graph actually says, very roughly:

NH MWP, 42 datasets:

Ongoing in year 800, temperatures mostly 0,3-0,4 K higher than today.

The temperature creeps below today’s level and ends around year 1300.

SH MWP, 13 datasets:

Ongoing in year 800, temperatures mostly 0,2-0,3 K higher than today.

The temperature creeps below today’s level and ends around year 1350.

Northern hemisphere is still much better represented than the southern hemisphere, so what can we conclude on this ground? Can we conclude anything?

On this ground I find it safe to accept the NH MWP approximately as described above.

To accept that globally there where no MWP, we will have to accept the following:

The 2 hemispheres have the ability to maintain a quite different temperature development for at least 500 years and did so from year 800 to year 1300.

What can we demand to accept this idea? We can demand solid evidence.

Anyone claiming the above must present solid evidence for a MEDIEVAL COLD PERIOD on the southern hemisphere.

IF data showed that the southern hemisphere had a MCP where temperatures for 500 years was 0,3-0,4 degrees colder than today, would this “kill” the MWP? Certainly not. Because, then we would have had 500 years with global temperatures just like today globally… – In that case, certainly no reason to be alarmed about the temperatures today.

No, if today’s temperatures should be alarmingly warm, the S. hemisphere temperature should show a very strong MCP at least 0,4 degrees colder than today in the 500 year period.

Is there ANY indication of a 500-year strong MCP in the southern hemisphere indicated in the data above? No, certainly not. There are not that many SH data, but still, there is not the slightest indication of a strong MCP on the S. Hemisphere.

Until the strong 500 year long MCP on SH has been proven, there is nothing that shakes the acceptance of a global MWP with temperatures resembling or higher than today’s temperatures.

I believe a massive use of tree ring graphs exclusively might show a strong southern MCP. In this case, the idea that there is no MWP globally is dependent on only on one specific method of making temperature proxies, tree rings. Tree rings are 1 of at least 20 different methods to measure temperatures of the past. As such, they should never dominate the measurements.

The South pole and MWP:

While examining temperature proxies, I found some odd results:

click for a larger image
click for a larger image

Fig 7: -A stunning mismatch between 2 Antarctic data series.

Not only are they both from Antarctica, but they are both from near the south pole. The well known “MWP-signature” has found its way not only to the Southern hemisphere, but to the south pole. But in the near by Vostok location, for many centuries, there has been absolutely no sign of the MWP? Obviously this is absurd, so at least one of the two results is not accurate.

The black graph (from “Remote Plateau”) has a resolution of 1 – 3 years per sample, excellent. The blue graph (vostok) has approx 23 years between data points. Both series should be considered fine quality then.

How likely is it, that the “MWP/LIA-signature” has come up in “Remote plateau” (black graph) data by a coincidence? When it has also been spotted many other places on the SH? See fig 6: The Vostok data has a dotted red line. How well does vostok data then fit the rest of the Southern hemisphere data?

The use of vostok data also moves the SH temperature profile away from the NH average.

Tree rings

If the MWP only disappears using one a specific measuring method, the idea as well as the method is invalid.

Proxy temperature data from tree rings are easy to get, but the quality?

Craig Loehle: “There are reasons to believe that tree ring data may not capture long-term climate changes”.

Indeed. A good warm year will obviously help a tree growing, but decades of increasing temperatures could affect the whole area so for example more trees might be able to survive, the root nets would only be able to grow to some extend for other trees etc.

Example: Imagine that a warming after decades is accompanied by 10% more trees surviving in an area and eventually demands their “place in the sun”. By measuring tree rings for an individual tree you are not measuring the overall tree growth of the area. And measuring 10.000 trees does not change anything as all trees would have the same problem. Measuring tree pollen or isotopes etc in sediment cores avoids these problems and it makes me wonder how come so much energy has been used for tree ring analyses.

Selective adjustments?

Many kinds of adjustments are used in connection with climate results. But one adjustment I haven’t heard of is the down-adjustment of recent temperatures from temperature proxy data due to CO2-induced extra growth. If the CO2 level is indeed extraordinary high, then it is a fact that plants grow markedly more. And they grow at higher altitude etc.

Here is an impressing overview of plant response to extra CO2 in the atmosphere:

http://www.co2science.org/data/plant_growth/dry/dry_subject_p.php

I have chosen the letter P for the link since several tree ring analysis are made for pine trees. Check the responses for pine trees when adding extra CO2.

Therefore any temperature proxy based on plant growth should be adjusted down in times of high CO2. Otherwise you will measure CO2 and not heat. But this obvious kind of adjustment seems not to happen? Or? Can it really be, that the crew of alarmists so happy for adjusting for all kinds of tiny issues, simply don’t adjust when there is a really good reason to do so?

click for a larger image
click for a larger image

Fig 8: Historic temperature proxy data with focus on tree ring-method. In the analyses I have used, it turned out that 7 of 55 datasets where from tree rings. On this figure, these 7 datasets actually does seem to differ in trend from all the rest. The 7 tree ring datasets suggests no MWP, in fact, they suggest that the MWP was 0,3-0,4 K COLDER than today’s temperatures. Quite the opposite result than the majority of datasets concerning MWP.

On might say that these 7 datasets are too little a basis for any conclusion, and therefore I have included a bigger tree ring multi proxi, “Esper et al 2002” and the trend from the 7 tree ring datasets are confirmed:

Unlike all other methods, tree rings shows no warm MWP.

Example, the European Alps:

lanser_holocene_figure9
click for a larger image

Fig 9: Here from fig 4, we have 2 different temperatures in the same area, the European Alps.

Quite like Antarctica, we have 2 datasets, one showing the well known “MWP/LIA-signature” and one not showing this. Both cannot be correct, so we know that at least one of the datasets is faulty.

In addition, these measurements where taken in the middle of Europe where we have an overwhelming amount of non-tree temperature proxy datasets confirming a very warm MWP.

Therefore, if the tree ring method was useful, we definitely should see a warm MWP from tree ring data in Europe. But we don’t. And unless all the other temperature proxy methods just shows a very warm MWP in Europe by coincidence, the tree ring method does appear to be the faulty method.

The tree graph appears flat compared to the other methods (- a “yummy” to use if you want to produce a hockey stick), but we are not here to produce a hockey stick, we seek the temperatures of the past.

Now it becomes relevant to examine jus non-tree temperature proxies (As Loehle concluded) for better accuracy:

click for a larger image
click for a larger image

Fig 10: The Historic temperature proxy trend based on 27 non tree ring proxies show a slightly warmer MWP than when including tree rings, fig 4. The average temperature for year 800-1400 is approx 0,4 K warmer than today, and the years 1400-1900 is around 0,4 K colder than today. So the non tree historic temperatures now gives a MWP/LIA difference of 0,8 K like the (non tree) Holocene temperatures, fig 5.

We even see “peaks” in the MWP up to 0,6K warmer than today, and now 1950 actually appears slightly warmer than today.

lanser_holocene_figure11
click for a larger image

Fig 11: Briffa’s 2001 all tree ring proxy data, compared with non tree ring data.

First of all, I have every respect for the huge work done using tree rings. There are indeed many sources to errors (like the idea about different SH/NH temperature development etc.) – but despite all, this graph speaks a very clear language.

Here we see the 27 datasets of non-tree rings, together with the well known tree ring graphs.

It becomes clear, that the non tree rings world wide – THICK BLUE CURVE – matches extremely well in the 20’th century and all the way back to year 1450. Then exactly as the MWP starts, the tree rings and the non

tree rings simply “looses contact”.

What ever the reason for the differences between tree ring or non tree ring temperature proxies,

it becomes evident, that choosing tree rings or not is the same as choosing a MWP or not.

.

One partly explanation for this huge mismatch could be CO2. If indeed the CO2 concentration today is a lot higher in the atmosphere than it was in the MWP, then trees simply grows faster than in the MWP, apparently even though temperatures are not higher.

S

Conclusion:

– Its way too early to consider the MWP gone. There is a lot of scientific work to be done before any such conclusion has any weight. MWP disappears when using tree ring data.

– In this writing we see that 48 non tree ring temperature proxies combined shows a MWP around 0,4 K warmer than today, lasting at least 500 years.

– Besides the MWP discussion: 80-90% of the Holocene period (last 10-12.000 years) has been warmer than today. The last 6000 years, the general temperature trend has been steady cooling. The temperature levels in the Little Ice Age were the lowest in the Holocene period.

I find it relevant to study the consequences of further cooling.

– Except for strongly adjusted temperature data, there is compliance between recent temperatures measured from satellites, evidence from tree-proxies, evidence from non-tree-proxies and more showing that: It does not appear warmer today than around 1940-50.

This is in compliance with solar activity in the 20’th century.

This does not suggest a warming effect of CO2 in the atmosphere.

ome of the non-tree-ring measurement methods includes Be, O and C isotopes etc, that in some cases are more independent of changing tree growth or the like. These methods would be preferable if we wanted to clear CO2-induced errors on temperature measurements.

1) Alley, R.B., 2000 The Younger Dryas cold interval as viewed from central Greenland GISP2
2) Andersen et al., 2004 A high unstable Holocene climate in the subpolar North Atlantic: evidence from diatoms
3) Barron et al., 2003 High-resolution climatic evolution of coastal northern California during the past 16,000 years.
4) Biondi et al., 1999 July temperatures during the second millenium reconstructed from Idaho tree rings.
5) Büntgen et al., 2005 PYR – MXD Pyrenees reconstruction
6) Büntgen et al., 2006 Summer Temperature Variations in the European Alps, A.D. 755-2004
7) Büntgen et al., 2007 Growth responses to climate in a multi-species tree-ring network in the Western Carpathian Tatra Mountains, Poland and Slovakia
8) Cook, E.R., et al. 1998 Tasmania Temperature Reconstruction
9) D. Dahl-Jensen et al., 1998 Past Temperatures Directly from the Greenland Ice Sheet
10) D’Arrigo et al., 2006 Alpine Spruce Composite tree-ring record – living and historical material
11) DeMenocal and Ortiz 2000 Coherent High- and Low-Latitude Climate Variability During the Holocene Warm Period
12) Fang Jin-qix 1990 Climate changes during the holocene and their impact on hydrological systems
13) Filippi, M.L. et al., 1999 Climatic and anthropogenic influence on the stable isotope record from bulk carbonates and ostracodes in Lake Neuchatel, Switzerland, during the last two millennia
14) Ge, Q., et al 2003 Winter half-year temperature reconstruction for the middle and lower reaches of the Yellow River and Yangtze River, China, during the past 2000 years
15) Glen MacDonald 1996 (PALE) Paleoenvironmental Time Series from Postglacial Lake Basins on Kola Peninsula, Russia
16) Goni., 2004 Generation, transport, and preservation of the alkenone-based U37K’ sea surface temperature index in the water column and sediments of the Cariaco Basin (Venezuela). Global Biogeochemical Cycles 18: 10.1029/2003GB002132.
17) Grudd, H. 2005 Tornestrask updated reconstruction. Tornetrask tree-ring width and density AD 500-2004: a test of climatic sensitivity and a new 1500-year reconstruction of north Fennoscandian summers.
18) Hammerlund et al., 2004 Diatom inferred SST (August) variations in core MD95-2011, Voering plateau
19) Hendy and Kennett, 2000 SST estimates from planktonic foraminiferalassembl ages
20) Holmgren., et al. 2001. A preliminary 3000-year regional temperature reconstruction for South Africa
21) Hui Jiang et al., 2005 Evidence for solar forcing of sea-surface temperature on the North Icelandic Shelf during the late Holocene
22) Isaksson., et al., 2006 Austfonna ice core – Svalbard
23) J. R. Petit et al., 2000 Historical Isotopic Temperature Record from the Vostok Ice Core
24) K. Antonsson,. et al. 2008 Anticyclonic atmospheric circulation as an analogue for the warm and dry mid-Holocene summer climate in central Scandinavia
25) Kaiser, J., et al 2005 A 70-kyr sea surface temperature record off southern Chile
26) KERR et al., 2008 Ghiacciai e cambiamenti climatici durante l’ultimo secolo nella regione Aoraki/Mt Cook, Nuova Zelanda
27) Kim et al., 2002 Alkenone-base sea surface temperature record (8C) for core from the Benguela Current
28) Koutavas et al., 2005 Tropical Pacific SST gradients since the LGM in relation to the ITCZ
29) Linderholm et al., 2005 Summer temperature variability in central Scandinavia during the last 3600 years.
30) Liu, Z., 2006 Alkenone-based reconstruction of late-Holocene surface temperature and salinity changes in Lake Qinghai, China
31) Lloyd D. Keigwin The Little Ice Age and Medieval Warm Period in the Sargasso Sea
32) M.R. Besonen., 2008 A record of climate over the last millennium based on varved lake sediments from the Canadian High Arctic
33) Mangini, A.et al., 2005 Reconstruction of temperature in the Central Alps during the past 2000 yr from a δ18O stalagmite record.
34) Mc Greggor et al., 2007 Rapid 20th-century increase in coastal upwelling off northwest Africa revealed by high-resolution marine sediment cores
35) Meixun Zhao et al., 2006 A millennial-scale U37 K sea-surface temperature record from the South China Sea (8°N) over the last 150 kyr: Monsoon and sea-level influence
36) Moore, J.J., et al., 2003 Baffin Island 1250 Year Summer Temperature Reconstruction,
37) Mosley-Thomson 1996 Holocene climate changes recorded in an east Antarctica ice core
38) Nesjea et al., 2004 Holocene millennial-scale summer temperature variability inferred from sediment parameters in a non-glacial mountain lake: Danntjørn,Jotunheimen, central southern Norway
39) Newton et al., 2006 Climate and hydrographic variability in the Indo-Pacific Warm Pool during the last millennium. Geophysical Research Letters 33: 10.1029/2006GL027234
40) Nyberg, J., et al., 2002, Northeastern Caribbean Late Holocene Sea Surface Temperature Reconstruction
41) Powers, L.A., et al 2005 Lake Malawi TEX86 Surface Temperature Reconstruction
42) Sachs et al., 2007 Cooling of Northwest Atlantic slope waters during the Holocene
43) Sallinger et al., 1988 The nature of New Zealand’s atmosphere and climate
44) Salzer, M.W. and K.F. Kipfmueller. 2005 Southern Colorado Plateau Temperature and Precipitation Reconstructions
45) Selvaraj et al., 2007 Holocene East Asian monsoon variability: Links to solar and tropical Pacific forcing
46) Seppa et al., 2003 Holocene annual mean temperature changes in Estonia and their relationship to solar insolation and atmospheric circulation patterns
47) Seppa et al., 2005 Diatom inferred SST (August) variations in core MD95-2011, Voering plateau
48) Societa Geologica Italiana 2007 Variabilità naturale del clima nell’Olocene ed in tempi storici:un approccio geologico
49) Stott et al., 2004 Climate/Ocean History of the Western Tropical Pacific
49) Stott et al., 2004 MD2176 Decline of surface temperature and salinity in the western tropical Pacific Ocean in the Holocene epoch
49) Stott et al., 2004 MD2181 Decline of surface temperature and salinity in the western tropical Pacific Ocean in the Holocene epoch
49) Stott, et al., 2004 MD2170 Decline of surface temperature and salinity in the western tropical Pacific Ocean in the Holocene epoch
50) Tan, M., et al., 2003 2650-Year Beijing Stalagmite Layer Thickness and Temperature Reconstruction
51) Tarasov., et al 2009 Late Glacial and Holocene changes in vegetation cover and climate in southern Siberia derived from a 15 kyr long pollen record from Lake Kotokel
52) Tyson., et al 2000 The Little Ice Age and medieval warming in South Africa.
53) V. RULL., 1996 PALAEOCLIMATOLOGY AND SEA-LEVEL HISTORY IN VENEZUELA.
54) Wang et al., 2000 Twentieth-century warming in the context of the holocene
55) Wilson, A.T., et al. 1979 Short-term climate change and New Zealand temperatures during the last millennium
56) Zabenskie, S. and Gajewski, K Post-glacial climatic change on Boothia Peninsula, Nunavut, Canada. Quaternary Research 68: 261-270.
57) Zinke et al., 2001 Evidence for the climate during the Late Maunder minimum…
58) Devi, et al ., 2008 Expanding forests and changing growth forms of Siberian larch at the Polar Urals treeline during the 20th century
59) Kim et al., 2006 Age and alkenone-derived Holocene sea-surface temperature records of sediment core SSDP-102
The climate data they don't want you to find — free, to your inbox.
Join readers who get 5–8 new articles daily — no algorithms, no shadow bans.
0 0 votes
Article Rating
234 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
savethesharks
April 13, 2009 8:09 pm

Correction: “This paper” should read “Your paper” [Frank’s paper]

April 13, 2009 9:36 pm

Robust evidence (just using AGW “scientific” terminology) on the occurrence of a MGW, warmer than the last decade warming, comes from the analysis of the flux of biogenic opal (SiO2.nH2O). The origin of CO2 from deep oceans is supported by overwhelming evidence (once again, using AGW words) coming from the upwelling of biogenic opal during deglaciations. It is unavoidable evidence which supports the fact (using again AGW “scientific” terminology) that increases of the concentration of atmospheric CO2 occur after the warming of the oceans and not before. (Anderson et al. Science. 13 March 2009)
Amen

Steve Keohane
April 13, 2009 10:20 pm

sod (12:29:42) You should have read the next couple of paragraphs, the data goes to beyond 1935. But that is a spurious argument for I was stating that the extermination of the MWP by the AGW/CO2 promoters is disingenuous. So your retort is irrelevant, because Loehle’s corrected paper from which you refer, shows an even warmer MWP and colder LIA than his original paper, from which the graph I linked was from. This is exactly the type of true but fallacious statement true believers like to make.
As regards thermometers, the diameter of the mercury column with only a +/- 2.5% deviation in diameter will yield a 10% error over the number of increments counted.

April 14, 2009 12:10 am

The MWP was warm for a very good reason, its one of the only periods in the last 11000 years without a grand minimum. Grand minima drag the Sun down for many years and also stifle the recovery. I think the MWP is the period between the Oort and Wolf minima which is a bit shorter than 500 years, but still an extended period without grand minimum.

Frank Lansner
April 14, 2009 1:23 am

Tom P
As we talked about, the UAH today is 0,2 K higher than 1980 and UAH in year 2000 is in fact at the same level as 1980.
But you added a trend line, and then the trend line showed that today is 0,4 K warmer than 1980 for UAH.
I do see a point in trend lines rather than actual UAH measurements, but then, Tom, if you want to compare the historic proxies with a trend line UAH, you should be scientific and consequent. Then you should also make a trendline for the proxies.
You cant choose the trend line only for the datasets where it benefits your belief.
I made excel add a trendline to the Proxies, and the proxi trendline shows that MWP is 1,0 K warmer than today 🙂
So if we use trendlines on both datasets, we get MWP 0,6 K warmer than today.
With actual data MWP was in average 0,4 K warmer than today.

Ot, Tom, perhaps you have an argument that trendlines should be used exactly when it goes against MWP?

Frank Lansner
April 14, 2009 1:40 am

Another thig Tom, if there had not been the 2 big dives 1985 and 1993 your trend line for UAH would have been 0,2 K from 1980-2009.
And these two bumps are clearly made from two vulcanoes:
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/lansner2.png
The above is from my earlier WUWT article
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/12/17/the-co2-temperature-link/
See also
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/01/30/co2-temperatures-and-ice-ages/
So Tom, your 0,4 K is not 0,2K because of 2 vulcanoes, so really honestly, I font think you have a good case with 0,4K UAH
If 2 vulcanoes should determine 0,2K of the whole MWP? Naaarh.

anna v
April 14, 2009 1:58 am

Tom P (13:00:53) :
Tom, I have worked for over 35 years in fitting models to data in the field of particle physics. All these “sensitivity”, “robustness” and “estimates” would be laughed out of the conference room had one dared to use them.
When we came out with a number from the fit, there were chi square per degrees of freedom and error bars +/- statistical, +/- systematic.
I have dived into the IPCC models, It took me time to realize that the bands around the models are not error bars. It was what I assumed they would be! I was wrong. They are “estimates” of what the models would develop into if the initial conditions were changed , not the parameters of the model by 1sigma of their error as is the kosher method, just the initial conditions.
Take the toy model at http://junkscience.com/Greenhouse/Earth_temp.html
and change the albedo , given as 0.31 into 0.3131, a 1% change, and whoever says that they know the albedo better than that is not being truthful, see http://www.leif.org/research/albedo.png . The temperature goes from 15C to 14.67C. The error bar that should be around the temperature calculation, +/- 0.34C just from one parameter. ( And I have not considered the considerable change in albedo in the data given in the link in the overall argument of time projection, just the statistical error).
The model is a toy model, but it is at the root of the GCMs. So really varying by 1 sigma the parameter errors that enter into the GCMs makes their whole temperature projections nonsense.

Frank Lansner
April 14, 2009 2:12 am

And tom , even with the 2 vulcanoes El chicon and Pinatubo that makes your 0,4K trend , a slightly more advanced (!) trendcurve confirms my use of 0,2K :
http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/extensions/InlineImages/image.php?AttachmentID=631
This more advanced trend curve confirms my use of UAH fully, fig B:
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/lanser_holocene_figure3.png
resulting in :
http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/lanser_holocene_figure11.png

sod
April 14, 2009 9:15 am

And tom , even with the 2 vulcanoes El chicon and Pinatubo that makes your 0,4K trend , a slightly more advanced (!) trendcurve confirms my use of 0,2K :
a higher order polynomial fit is NOT an “advanced” method of fitting a trend. most people would consider it to be simply WRONG.
http://deepclimate.org/2009/04/09/the-alberta-oil-boys-network-spins-global-warming-into-cooling/#more-219
I made excel add a trendline to the Proxies, and the proxi trendline shows that MWP is 1,0 K warmer than today 🙂
what sort of a trend did you fit? i am not sure that i understand what you did, but it is interesting.
it is a real problem, that the modern warming period is very short and at an endpoint of the graph, so i m really interested in your methodology.
o your retort is irrelevant, because Loehle’s corrected paper from which you refer, shows an even warmer MWP and colder LIA than his original paper, from which the graph I linked was from.
the revised Loehle paper does not show the MWP to be warmer than modern temperatures.

April 14, 2009 10:50 am

sod (09:15:06):
the revised Loehle paper does not show the MWP to be warmer than modern temperatures.
Sorry, but It’s not true. I have both uncorrected and corrected Loehle’s databases ’cause he kindly send them to me immediately after he amended his article. MGW prevails also on corrected databases.

Tom P
April 14, 2009 11:39 am

Frank,
If to justify your values you need to use a fourth order polynomial, as is shown on the trend you present, you have to show that there is a significant improvement in the correlation coefficient between the trend and the data by using three additional fitting parameters.
A simple linear fit to the UAH temperature series gives a correlation coefficient of 0.53, while your fourth order polynomial gives 0.59. This is not a significant difference and so there is no justification in using a fourth order fit. The linear trend and a 0.4 degC rise therefore remain correct.

sod
April 14, 2009 12:07 pm

Sorry, but It’s not true. I have both uncorrected and corrected Loehle’s databases ’cause he kindly send them to me immediately after he amended his article. MGW prevails also on corrected databases.
sorry, but data that ends in 1935 simply can NOT show, that the MWP was warmer than today.

Mark T
April 14, 2009 12:20 pm

sod (12:07:39) :
sorry, but data that ends in 1935 simply can NOT show, that the MWP was warmer than today.

Um, the databases only need to show what the temperature during the MWP was since we already know how warm it is today.
Try to think outside the box a bit, sod.
Mark

April 14, 2009 12:22 pm

sod (12:07:39):
sorry, but data that ends in 1935 simply can NOT show, that the MWP was warmer than today.
Fill it with new data from 1935 to 2009 and… Presto! MGW warmer than last five decades global warming.

April 14, 2009 12:26 pm

NOAA + AMSU2 Databases:
1935 6 0.1142
1936 6 -0.0178
1937 6 0.0827
1938 6 0.0979
1939 6 0.0748
1940 6 0.1163
1941 6 0.138
1942 6 0.1242
1943 6 0.1178
1944 6 0.2134
1945 6 0.0667
1946 6 -0.0289
1947 6 -0.0304
1948 6 -0.0414
1949 6 -0.0681
1950 6 -0.1555
1951 6 -0.0118
1952 6 0.0339
1953 6 0.1128
1954 6 -0.1115
1955 6 -0.1314
1956 6 -0.1878
1957 6 0.049
1958 6 0.0994
1959 6 0.053
1960 6 0.0048
1961 6 0.0745
1962 6 0.0979
1963 6 0.1272
1964 6 -0.1399
1965 6 -0.0732
1966 6 -0.0298
1967 6 -0.0142
1968 6 -0.0213
1969 6 0.0786
1970 6 0.0324
1971 6 -0.0643
1972 6 0.0178
1973 6 0.1429
1974 6 -0.1047
1975 6 -0.0319
1976 6 -0.1107
1977 6 0.1282
1978 6 0.0503
1979 6 -0.073
1980 6 0.0871
1981 6 0.0521
1982 6 -0.1535
1983 6 0.0351
1984 6 -0.2584
1985 6 -0.214
1986 6 -0.1476
1987 6 0.11
1988 6 0.10775
1989 6 -0.1105
1990 6 0.073
1991 6 0.117
1992 6 -0.192
1993 6 -0.1491
1994 6 -0.01242
1995 6 0.12425
1996 6 0.0208
1997 6 0.0462
1998 6 0.5132
1999 6 0.0405
2000 6 0.0346
2001 6 0.199
2002 6 0.314
2003 6 0.272
2004 6 0.1942
2005 6 0.33
2006 6 0.276
2007 6 0.27
2008 6 0.05

Frank Lansner
April 14, 2009 12:46 pm

Tom, you can see as well as I that if not El chicon and Pinatubo where placed in 1985 / 1993 there would have been a linear UAH trend of 0,2K 1980-today, approx. Therefore your 0,4K is complete random and for no scientific use.
Had a El Chicon even been around 2002-7 then trend would have been even lower. You cannot make me think that this kind of dice-throwing should improve me 55 sets of data that united shows a VERY VERY strong commen result: A stron long MWP. Period.

sod
April 14, 2009 12:56 pm

sorry Nasif, i don t know what you are trying to do there.
both GISS and Hadcrut give a slope of 0.07 per decadess ince 1935, leading to a temperature increase of about 0.5°C, that need to be added to that last point of the Loehle graph on page 97. the graph ends at about 0.1, +0.5 makes 0.6, which is ABOVE the high point of the MWP.
(which is in the year 800, quite at the start of the 500 years period outlined in the article we are discussing here, btw…)
are you trying to tell me, that it is not 0.5°C warmer in the period around today than in one around 1935?

Mark T
April 14, 2009 1:14 pm

sod (12:56:29) :
are you trying to tell me, that it is not 0.5°C warmer in the period around today than in one around 1935?

Given the data Nasif just posted, no, it is not. He also noted that those are NOAA and AMSU2 data, not GISS and HadCrut. Nice strawman, sod.
Really, can you make ANY argument without some logical fallacy? Just curious, I’m waiting to see one.
Mark

Tom P
April 14, 2009 1:19 pm

Naisif:
Loehle, Energy and Environment 18, 2007: “Even keeping in mind that Figure 1 shows 30-year running means, it would indeed seem to show the MWP to be warmer than the late 20th century. The eighteen series used here show a mean difference of about 0.3°C between the MWP and the 20th century”
Loehle, Energy and Environment 19, 2008: “Even adding this rise to the 1935 reconstructed value, the MWP peak remains 0.07 Deg C above the end of the 20thCentury values, though the difference is not significant. ”
It looks like Loehle’s MWP is getting cooler as he corrects his analysis!
http://www.freesundayschoollessons.org/pdfs/climate-history.pdf

Tom P
April 14, 2009 1:55 pm

Frank,
“Tom, you can see as well as I that if not El chicon and Pinatubo where placed in 1985 / 1993 there would have been a linear UAH trend of 0,2K 1980-today, approx. Therefore your 0,4K is complete random and for no scientific use.”
Maybe some data would help clarify. I’ve removed all below-trend data for temperatures after El Chicon and Pinatubo. The UAH series gives:
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/6061/uahexvolc.png
and a trend of 0.120 rather than 0.133 degC/decade, so a 0.36 rather than 0.40 degC change from 1979 to date. The removal of these lower temperatures means the current anomaly has actually slightly increased and is now +0.28 degC.
I’m sure you will amend your analysis accordingly.

sod
April 14, 2009 2:20 pm

Given the data Nasif just posted, no, it is not. He also noted that those are NOAA and AMSU2 data, not GISS and HadCrut. Nice strawman, sod.
no strawman at all. if he can pick his datasets, so can i.
i chose the two most common used sets of surface temperature.
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/hadcrut3vgl/from:1935/plot/hadcrut3vgl/from:1935/trend
i am sorry, if you don t like the data. but you will have to struggle hard to find scientific support for the claim, that the 30s were NOT 0.5°C below the temperature of the last decade.
Really, can you make ANY argument without some logical fallacy? Just curious, I’m waiting to see one.
using a different dataset is not a logical fallacy. you might want to google that term, before you use it.

Tom P
April 14, 2009 3:38 pm

anna v,
“Tom, I have worked for over 35 years in fitting models to data in the field of particle physics. All these “sensitivity”, “robustness” and “estimates” would be laughed out of the conference room had one dared to use them.
When we came out with a number from the fit, there were chi square per degrees of freedom and error bars +/- statistical, +/- systematic.”
My background is in physics as well, as is also the case for a lot climate scientists. The techniques physicists generally use are to fit theory to data, but this is not what a proxy reconstruction is trying to do. Such reconstructions are trying to derive the underlying time series behind a set of derived measurements. There is mostly no actual past temperature series to compare, and so the techniques you cite are of little relevance – what model is Frank supposed to do a chi-square test against?
Hence the tests of the “skill” of a reconstruction are to show that it is robust in that it is insensitive to choice of proxies, that the proxy temperatures are derived correctly, and the weightings are reasonably applied given the uncertainties in the derived values. I was also unfamiliar with these techniques, but that is no reason to dismiss them.
Climate models have the same problem in that again there is no future data to model against. My subsequent engineering practice, though, suggests a way of analysing the robustness of such models. If I want to be sure that my finite element analysis (FEA) of a mechanical system, for instance, is giving a reasonable answer, I first check it is consistent with a simplified analytical approximation and then change the analysis parameters, such as cell number and shape, to see that my FEA solution doesn’t change drastically. If I want an estimate of the accuracy of the solution, I tweak the input parameters.
This is the day-to-day experience of modellers in engineering, and I’m not at all surprised that climate scientists use similar approaches in their GCM modelling, which is just time-dependent finite element analysis.

April 14, 2009 5:02 pm

Here the whole paragraphs from Loehle’s corrected article:
The peak value of the MWP is 0.526 Deg C above the mean over the period (again as a 29 year mean, not annual, value). This is 0.412 Deg C above the last reported value at 1935 (which includes data through 1949) of 0.114 Deg C. The standard error of the difference is 0.224 Deg C, so that the difference is significantly non-zero at the 10% level (t = 1.84). While instrumental data are not strictly comparable, the rise in 29 year-smoothed global data from NASA GISS (http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp) from 1935 to 1992 (with data from 1978 to 2006) is 0.34 Deg C. Even adding this rise to the 1935 reconstructed value, the MWP peak remains 0.07 Deg C above the end of the 20th Century values, though the difference is not significant.
Scientific articles must not be read the same as you read the Bible, i.e. taking verses out from the context:
While instrumental data are not strictly comparable, the rise in 29 year-smoothed global data from NASA GISS (http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp) from 1935 to 1992 (with data from 1978 to 2006) is 0.34 Deg C. Even adding this rise to the 1935 reconstructed value, the MWP peak remains 0.07 Deg C above the end of the 20th Century values, though the difference is not significant.

April 14, 2009 5:05 pm

sod (14:20:30) :
no strawman at all. if he can pick his datasets, so can i.
i chose the two most common used sets of surface temperature.
http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/hadcrut3vgl/from:1935/plot/hadcrut3vgl/from:1935/trend
i am sorry, if you don t like the data. but you will have to struggle hard to find scientific support for the claim, that the 30s were NOT 0.5°C below the temperature of the last decade.

Are you suggesting NOAA and AMSU2 databases are not correct?

savethesharks
April 14, 2009 9:16 pm

Sod said: “Sorry, but data that ends in 1935 simply can NOT show, that the MWP was warmer than today.”
How about the a simple fact that Eric the Red named Greenland more than 1000 years ago…because it was “green” enough to have a settlement and raise crops.
Also Newfoundland….is “Vinland” at the same general time as explored by his colleague Leif Erikkson:
Wine-land The earliest etymology of “Vinland” is found in Adam of Bremen’s 11th-century Latin Descriptio insularum Aquilonis (“Description of the Northern Islands”): “Moreover, he has also reported one island discovered by many in that ocean, which is called Winland, for the reason that grapevines grow there by themselves, producing the best wine.” (Praeterea unam adhuc insulam recitavit a multis in eo repertam occeano, quae dicitur Winland, eo quod ibi vites sponte nascantur, vinum optimum ferentes). The implication is that the first element is Old Norse vín (Latin vinum), “wine”.This explanation is essentially repeated in the 13th-century Grœnlendinga saga, which provides a circumstantial account of the discovery of Vinland, and its being named from the grapes (vínber) found there.
Maybe not warmer than today….but comparable.
Either way…you are wasting your time.
What are you trying to prove? What is your goal? You seem to be a plant.
Do you get paid for this, Sod?
Chris
Norfolk, VA, USA