
I assume that everyone has seen the post on our website discussing the changes that NSIDC has instituted to make our sea ice data available again. I don’t want to repeat that, but I thought I would respond to some of the more general issues that came up in Anthony’s posts and accompanying comments. I thank Anthony for giving me this opportunity. I write here from my personal viewpoint and not in an official capacity as a representative of NSIDC or the University of Colorado.
I apologize for the error in our data and for the relative slowness in responding to it. I’m glad that so many people are interested in the data and I understand that seeing errors is frustrating and can undermine confidence in the data. Anthony is correct that many people do now pay close attention to our website and we do have a responsibility to attend to errors as fast as we can. We will try to do better in the future. There are two major points that I hope everyone can take away from this event:
(1) The error in no changed any of our conclusions about the long-term changes in Arctic sea ice. The ice extent is declining significantly and the ice is thinning.
(2) Errors like the one that occurred are part of the normal course of dealing with satellite data. We hope that they are rare, but they are not unexpected.
On the first point, there is no doubt; it is verified by numerous independent observations and is well-discussed in numerous places, including in the entries on our analysis web page.
On the second point, I think it is worth providing some background on satellite data and how it is processed, stored, and used by scientists, including those at NSIDC. In doing so, I’m not making excuses for the error in NSIDC’s data, but I hope I can help people understand how such errors are part of the scientific process of quality controlling and fine-tuning data and techniques to ultimately provide the best information possible to track climate change.
Climate science is focused on understanding long-term changes and the mechanisms that drive them. In terms of satellite data, this means taking great care and making the data as good as it can possibly be. The focus is on assuring a time series good enough to track potentially subtle trends. This involves careful quality control of data and developing and fine-tuning algorithms to convert raw satellite data into a useful climate parameter (such as sea ice extent). Like all of science this has traditionally been done slowly, methodically, and privately. And up until about ten years ago, there was no other choice but to move slowly because of severe constraints on computer processing speeds, limited data storage capacities, and difficulties in simply sharing data. One of the earliest papers to note the long-term decline in Arctic sea ice was published in 1999 (Parkinson et al., J. Geophysical Research); it was based on data only through 1996. It simply took that long to collect and carefully analyze the data, make sure algorithms were robust and stable, and get a paper through scientific peer-review.
Data distribution was also limited because of similar computational, storage, and distribution constraints. For example, NSIDC used to received updates every five years or so of final quality-controlled sea ice products. We would then distribute the data by mail on CD-ROM only to registered users.
Immediate data analysis was solely the province of operational centers, like the National Weather Service, who had special access to near-real-time data. Their focus was on getting only what was needed of any data before moving on to the next analysis or forecast cycle. Quality control was focused on catching major errors; smaller errors that didn’t significantly impact a short-term analysis were not caught or were ignored. There was no consideration given to the long-term context of the data, which were often not even saved.
There was a very clear delineation between science and operations.
Science is still done slowly and methodically, with final results disseminated the way they always have been – through peer-reviewed scientific journals. It still takes time to do final quality control on climate products. NSIDC now receives final sea ice data about once a year. But in the past ten years or so, access to data has changed dramatically. Computer processing power and data storage capacities have increased exponentially and high-speed internet has allowed near instantaneous distribution of data to a broad community. Satellite data that used to require days or weeks of processing and required dozens of tapes or CDs to store can now be processed in minutes, stored on a portable hard drive or even a memory stick, and distributed over the internet. This has been a boon to scientists who now have much faster and easier access to large amounts of data.
At the same time algorithms have matured and become more stable. This means that significant adjustments to the algorithms are not regularly needed and they can be run confidently on near-real-time data, with the understanding that the results may change during final quality-control. This has allowed to NSIDC implement a near-real-time version of the sea ice data. For the past several years this data has been freely distributed online for anyone who wished to use it, though the primary audience was scientists who would be familiar with associated caveats of using near-real-time data.
In this context, let me now move on to NSIDC and its Arctic Sea Ice News and Analysis web site. NSIDC is a science institution. Our mission is science and science support, not operational support for any kind of critical operational decisions (e.g., what regions are free enough of sea ice to be safely navigated). Because we must focus on science, the resources we can devote to near-real-time data production and analysis are limited. Nonetheless, as climate change became an important topic, it was clear that Arctic sea ice was a leading indicator of the observed changes. Since NSIDC stores and distributes the sea ice data, many people started to come to NSIDC scientists to ask about sea ice conditions and the implications for the climate. When 2005 set a record low summer extent, there was a lot of media attention; in response we issued a press release. Through summer 2006 we received many requests asking about how the ice was looking, both from the media and fellow scientists. As the summer wore on it started to feel a bit like being on a family road trip and having the kids in the back continually asking “are we there yet?” As summer 2007 started, it was a clear that a new record low was quite possible. The questions began again in earnest.
In the sense that science ultimately serves society, it was becoming apparent that scientists and the public were coming to expect a near-real-time analysis of Arctic sea ice conditions. In response, we decided to develop the website so that we could post occasional data updates and science-based discussion of the conditions. This worked quite well, but the summer of 2007 was so remarkable and Arctic sea ice had become such a big story both scientifically and in the public consciousness that we realized there would be the expectation to do even more during 2008. In response, in addition to our occasional summer posts of data and analysis, we decided to provide daily data updates and at least monthly analyses throughout the year. This decision was possible only because the products are mature and stable and further quality control to produce final data results in only minor changes. This was an added burden on NSIDC resources, but with automated processing the day-to-day impacts could be managed.
This all evolved in an ad hoc manner, with improvements made when we had resources available. Remember, none of this is NSIDC’s primary mission, which is to archive hundreds of cryospheric datasets and support peer-reviewed research. The sea ice analysis website is one of dozens of research and data management projects at NSIDC. People working on the web site often have to fit it in where and when they can amid other duties. There is no single person at NSIDC who works only or even primarily on the sea ice analysis page. This is not an ideal situation, but it is the only way we can support the analysis while still fulfilling all of our responsibilities.
This is one reason why we appeared slow to address the error last week. We have a group at NSIDC whose responsibility is to respond to user questions and comments on any of our hundreds of datasets. NSIDC’s standard is to provide a response to user inquiries within 24 hours during the business week. This is very quick for a science institution and NSIDC’s user services works very hard to always meet that standard. However, it is not particularly fast compared an operational center that works on a 24/7 schedule. We will work to put into place better QC measures and more streamlined procedures to catch future errors more quickly, but we simply do not have the resources to work in an operational environment.
This of course begs the question: why don’t operational centers do this instead of NSIDC? Operational centers do indeed provide near-real-time sea ice data. However, I believe there are a couple reasons why operational centers are not poised to provide the kind of science-based support found at NSIDC. First, their only priority is on supporting critical users with the most useful operational information about sea ice – e.g., ships sailing in and near ice-infested waters; their data is not well-suited for easy understanding by a general audience. Second, operational centers are focused on near-real-time support, not on climate issues. Thus their expertise in putting near-real-time data in the context of long-term climate is limited.
NSIDC and other climate data/research centers (e.g., NASA GISS) do have that expertise. And that is crucial. It is only through evaluation of the near-real-time data in the context of the long-term climate that one can properly assess the relevance to climate change. This mixture of climate science and near-real-time data analysis is perhaps not optimal, but I think it is worthwhile.
The easy access to climate data has been a boon for scientists and I would argue it has also been a great benefit for society. Science ultimately serves society and quick and easy access to data provides quality up-to-date information on important issues, such as climate change. The problem is that such data can come to be viewed by journalists and other members of the public as completely routine and reliable. When small changes or errors occur, they may be given greater import than they deserve in terms of what they imply about climate change. This means there is a responsibility for places like NSIDC distributing data to thoroughly explain the data and respond quickly to any issues. I believe NSIDC does an excellent job in explaining the data through considerable documentation on all aspects of the sea ice data. However, in terms of responding to data issues, NSIDC and like centers have been slow to realize that the audience for such data has expanded beyond fellow scientists and informed journalists and that any issues need to be addressed as soon as possible lest they confuse or mislead the public. This is a difficult task for places like NSIDC, whose resources are limited and whose primary mission is not operational support. The recent data error has been a learning experience for those of us at NSIDC and we will try to do better.
I hope that this information gives people a greater appreciation for the hard-work done by my colleagues at NSIDC and an understanding of the difficulties inherent in supporting near-real-time data with limited resources amid myriad other responsibilities. Finally, I hope that people come away with a better sense of what goes into analyzing satellite data and how such data is so beneficial to our understanding of climate. Thank you.
Walt Meier
Dr. Meier contributed valuable information and insight with class — the sort of class exhibited by Anthony Watt on a regular basis. I do hope this continues as it elevates the discussion and debate to levels where improved understanding may evolve.
My greatest concern is the definition of “long-term trend.” We must be careful in how we use it. The long-term trend that begins in the late 18th Century is clearly warmer. However, the long-term trend that begins in the 9th Century is clearly cooler. From climate maximums three or four thousand years ago the trend is cooler, not unlike previous interglacials when the latter stages of the interglacials were cooler than the early stages.
Dave (17:34:49) wrote: Anybody know what the global sea ice extent was during the Medieval Warm Period?
The MWP varied quite a bit (no surprise there). Recent northern Greenland anthropological studies have found ancient sea levels several meters higher than now associated with coastal habitats in areas that were frozen and iced over until recently. These discoveries are suggesting an ice-free eastern Arctic for at least part of the year with much higher sea levels within the time frame of the MWP.
Great Lakes Ice Coverage is interesting to look at also.
http://ice-glaces.ec.gc.ca/Ice_Can/GL/CVCSWCTGL.gif
paulhan (16:49:32) :
Lastly, are we really saying that all ice is going to melt, given that temperatures in those places are -50 degrees C. Even if the temperatures rose by 5C generally, and even say 10C at the poles, that would still leave it -40C. It has to be 0-1C to melt.
It’s nowhere near -50C during the summer at the poles, except perhaps some places high on the antarctic ice sheet. The coastal areas usually have temperatures temperatures well above 0 during a few summer months, in the north the temperature may even get above 0 in any month as far north as 80N for that matter. While temperatures may rarely go above 0 on the top of the Greenlandic ice sheet, ice still moves, and if the ice at the coast breaks off faster, the ice of the interior will move faster towards the coast than new ice can replace it. I think that’s the basic idea.
paulhan: The rule of thumb I was taught is that the ocean bottom is at about 4 km depth over most of the ocean.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean#Physical_properties has 3.7 km average depth.
The same article claims that all fresh water constitutes “less than 3%” of the total; most of this will be in ice caps. Please redo your calculation in the light of these figures.
One of the nicest features of science is coherence.
Mike Bryant,
Did you ever get a response from Walt Meier about your post on 12/26/08 on a 12/24 article, pertaining to an apparent ice extent/snow extent mapping change that would have the effect of shrinking the available area for arctic sea ice?
Mike Bryant (05:16:27) :
Dr.Walt Meier,
Can you please explain a couple of things on the Cryosphere Today “Compare side-by-side images of Northern Hemisphere sea ice extent” product, please?
Why does the snow in the more recent dates cover areas that were previously sea inlets, fjords, coastal sea areas, islands and rivers? (Water areas, most easily discernible in the River Ob inley
Why does the sea ice in the older images cover land areas? (Land areas, most easily discernible in River Ob inlet)
See this overlay: http://i44.tinypic.com/330u63t.jpg
Looking forward to your answer,
Mike Bryant
If so, or if not, where do we stand on the change being discussed over Christmas?
Thanks
No we do not have any reliable records of the ice in the Arctic ocean in the MWP.
Such accounts as we have, both Chinese and Viking, which suggest that the Arctic ocean was navigable at that time, at least in the summer. were written one to two hundred years later and must therefore be accounted as legendary.
If so the legend of the North West Passage so affected the British psyche that they looked for it for five hundred years. Without much success.
But we do know that according to contemporary written record, because mariners keep pilotage records, that by 1200 the outbound direct Norway Greenland route had closed in winter due to sea ice and ships had to go via Iceland and that by 1250 not only were the northern Greenland colonies being abandoned but that outbreaks of scurvy were becoming commonplace on the return voyage.
We don’t know why other than the passage times were much longer and perhaps fresh supplies were in short supply in Greenland. By the way these are the first accounts we have of scurvy.
Again although they could measure their latitude they had no reliable means of measuring longitude so it is hard to be sure how exact their observations were.
You see although it is despised in an age of satellites there really is a measured and written down and contemporary record going back a thousand years.
Kindest Regards
Dr. Meier, thank you for the professional tone and helpful information. Particularly useful to hear about the practical aspects of making the data available and all the work that you and your colleagues are doing. Many thanks for the efforts and your commitment to continue making this valuable resource available.
Philp_B wrote:
“This means that if ‘record’ ice melt has occured then there must have been similarly ‘record’ ice freezing in order for the winter ice level to be maintained.”
Unless I am missing something, this is a very lucid point that deserves repeating.
Dr. Meier, many have found the NSIDC explanation for not using the 30 years average record normally accepted in the climatology field, quite unconvincing at best. Considering government agencies computational means, how come the NSIDC is unwilling to do change its average from 1979-2000 to 1979-2008 and recalibrate the database? It is obvious that the 1979-2000 average maintains artificially a higher average than would the accepted 30 years baseline, although as one figure pointed out on the NSIDC site by not much. Still this goes to methodoly: what makes the NSIDC decide arctic sea ice measurements should compare to a 21 year average? What’s next? Another field will prefer 15 y average perhaps? Sure it doesn’t reverse the trend but it enhances it and perhaps one day it may mask the trend’s reversal.
Thank you for your answer.
Oh Dr. Meier if I may abuse of your time just a little more: Pr. Maslanik of Boulder said it was measured that in 1980 only 20% of the arctic sea ice was represented by multi year ice 7y old or older. Thus my question: what happened of the rest of 20y old, 50 y old, 100 y old, 200 y old sea ice then? If no 200y old sea ice existed then or now, does it not mean that periodic important melts are the nature of the beast? And thus the decline observed in arctic sea ice since the mid 1970s is concomittant with the trajectory changes of polar anticyclones in the Atlantic North (thesis of Alexis Pommier 2005 under the direction of Marcel Leroux) or in the Pacific Northeast (Favre and Gershunov 2006, 2008) and thus is linked to the well documented climatic change initiated then and whose connection with the theory of CO2 AGW is yet to be demonstrated?
Thank you again for your time.
I think this boils down to once again how the media can think they can interpret values without checking from the scientists whether the interpretations they draw are valid or not, ie see a graph or be told a percentage and then come to your own decision on what it means. Or more like what you WANT it to mean.
So I’m glad NSIDC will be spending more time on their “operational” style data for the general public even though it is outside their remit. Maybe in part payment people like Michael Asher and George Will will actually ask them for the scientists comments rather than just misunderstanding what they see? Then everyone will be happy.
Regards
Andy
Antonio Sam
You make an interesting point about the age of ice. Are you able to link us to the studies? Thanks. From my own research it appears that substantial ice melt is a regular occurence so it would be good to see some actual scientific research on the subject
TonyB
Steinar Midtskogen (22:12:07) :
It’s nowhere near -50C during the summer at the poles, except perhaps some places high on the antarctic ice sheet.
You are correct, see this ‘real-time’ image – http://amrc.ssec.wisc.edu/~amrc/AWSMCMTA.GIF
Parent URL = http://uwamrc.ssec.wisc.edu/realaws.html
The synoptic charts for both the Indian and Pacific oceans see –
http://www.bom.gov.au/cgi-bin/nmoc/latest.pl?IDCODE=IDX0033 – Indian
http://www.bom.gov.au/cgi-bin/nmoc/latest.pl?IDCODE=IDX0032 – Pacific
It’s closing in on the end of summer but the temps are below freezing. Is that early?
They key point for me that has not been answered is that the trend in ice data may well be part of a longer natural cycle. There is a lot of historical data that highlights that the Artic ice sea extent was of a similar magnitude 60-70 years ago as it is today.
Probably not strictly relevant to the present discussion but this article is on the north Greenland settlements by the Independence I Culture some 6000 to 7000 years ago.
The Independence I Culture apparently disappeared from north Greenland some four to four and a half thousand years ago as north Greenland got colder.
It was replaced by the Inuit Culture which was adapted to the colder temperatures.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081020095850.htm
Policyguy,
Nope, nevergot an answer from Meier or Chapman. Apparently, Dr. Meier only cares if his data is used to promote common sense.
Mike Bryant
Antonio San (23:54:22) :
… 20% of the arctic sea ice was represented by multi year ice 7y old or older. Thus my question: what happened of the rest of 20y old, 50 y old, 100 y old, 200 y old sea ice then?
Doesn’t ice melt from below and above?
Mike Bryant, I have to agree with your take on this situation.
Peter Jones (22:05:55) :
A long term study shows later freeze and earlier breakup trend on the majority of North American Lakes:
http://www.cfr.washington.edu/classes.esc.401/LakeIcePhenology07.pdf
I live in Southwest Florida. I just stepped outside (not a scientific study, no mean averages to speak of), and I just have one thing to say about global warming: may I have some more, please?
Richard
The link below is a paper on the Artic Sea Ice Fluctuations from1953 to 1977 by John E Walsh & Claudia M Johnson, Journal of Physical Oceanography.
http://ams.allenpress.com/archive/1520-0485/9/3/pdf/i1520-0485-9-3-580.pdf
One of the paper’s conclusions is that, and I quote, “The trend in total Artic Sea ice extent computed from the 300 month sample is POSITIVE and statistically SIGNIFICANT”.
To put it another way, there was a recorded growth in the Artic Sea ice extent from 1953 to 1977.
Now compare that SIGNIFICANT POSITIVE trend from 1953-77 to the SIGNIFICANT NEGATIVE trend computed from the satellite data since 1978 to the present, 2009.
Two things are immediately apparent.
The Artic Sea ice extent in the late 1970s and early 1980s was at a RECORDED HIGH.
The longer term trend from 1953 to the present, 2009, is UNLIKELY to be significant.
Thank you Dr Meier for a very informative piece. I was about to ask you to refute Gore’s sometimes very alarmist comments on the Arctic region, but then I read Ron de Haan’s last posting. I sincerely hope that your clarification regarding the poles will eventually lead the VP to modify his forecasts of catastrophic sea level rises etc.
Terry Bixler (17:56:47)
Hello Terry,
You are about to become an expert on ice melt;
get a glass, fill it with warm water, put a ice cube into the glass !
Philip_B (16:57:06) :
[Eric Anderson (23:13:19)]
Sea ice will always form in the arctic winter and it is not surprising that the extent of the winter sea ice is receding much more slowly than the extent of summer sea ice. However the winter sea ice will be increasingly new ice, since the locales where new ice is forming on top of older sea ice (at least one season old) is receding back to ever higher latitudes. So those observations (reduced winter sea ice recession and increased areas of exclusively new ice) are pretty much what is expected in a warming arctic with a warming-induced recession of sea ice that is strongly represented in summer sea ice extent.
The ice thinning argument is not an “inference”, although one can infer that new ice formed directly on the water surface will be thinner than ice that accumulates on pre-existing sea ice. Ice thickness is directly measured by a number of methods. Try, for example:
K. A. Giles et al. (2008) Circumpolar thinning of Arctic sea ice following the 2007 record ice extent minimum Geophys. Res. Lett. 35, L22502
abstract: September 2007 marked a record minimum in sea ice extent. While there have been many studies published recently describing the minimum and its causes, little is known about how the ice thickness has changed in the run up to, and following, the summer of 2007. Using satellite radar altimetry data, covering the Arctic Ocean up to 81.5o North, we show that the average winter sea ice thickness anomaly, after the melt season of 2007, was 0.26 m below the 2002/2003 to 2007/2008 average. More strikingly, the Western Arctic anomaly was 0.49 m below the six-year mean in the winter of 2007/2008. These results show no evidence of short-term preconditioning through ice thinning between 2002 and 2007 but show that, after the record minimum ice extent in 2007, the average ice thickness was reduced, particularly in the Western Arctic.
Haas C et al. (2008) Reduced ice thickness in Arctic Transpolar Drift favors rapid ice retreat Geophys. Res. Lett. 35, L17501
Abstract: Helicopter-borne electromagnetic sea ice thickness measurements were performed over the Transpolar Drift in late summers of 2001, 2004, and 2007, continuing ground-based measurements since 1991. These show an ongoing reduction of modal and mean ice thicknesses in the region of the North Pole of up to 53 and 44%, respectively, since 2001. A buoy derived ice age model showed that the thinning was mainly due to a regime shift from predominantly multi- and second-year ice in earlier years to first-year ice in 2007, which had modal and mean summer thicknesses of 0.9 and 1.27 m. Measurements of second-year ice which still persisted at the North Pole in April 2007 indicate a reduction of late-summer second-year modal and mean ice thicknesses since 2001 of 20 and 25% to 1.65 and 1.81 m, respectively. The regime shift to younger and thinner ice could soon result in an ice free North Pole during summer.
Maslanik JA et al. (2007) A younger, thinner Arctic ice cover: Increased potential for rapid, extensive sea-ice loss Geophys. Res. Lett. 34, L24501
Abstract: Satellite-derived estimates of sea-ice age and thickness are combined to produce a proxy ice thickness record for 1982 to the present. These data show that in addition to the well-documented loss of perennial ice cover as a whole, the amount of oldest and thickest ice within the remaining multiyear ice pack has declined significantly. The oldest ice types have essentially disappeared, and 58% of the multiyear ice now consists of relatively young 2-and 3-year-old ice compared to 35% in the mid-1980s. Ice coverage in summer 2007 reached a record minimum, with ice extent declining by 42% compared to conditions in the 1980s. The much-reduced extent of the oldest and thickest ice, in combination with other factors such as ice transport that assist the ice-albedo feedback by exposing more open water, help explain this large and abrupt ice loss.
Antonio San (23:54:22) :
Here’s what Maslanik et al say [***]:
“The area where at least half of the ice fraction in March consists of ice that is at least 5 years old has decreased by 56%, from 5.83 × 106 km2 in 1985 to a minimum of 2.56 × 106 km2 in 2007. Most of the perennial pack now consists of ice that is 2 or 3 years old (58% in March 2006 vs. a minimum of 35% in March 1987). The fraction of 5+ year old ice within the MYI decreased from 31% in 1988 to 10% in 2007. Older ice types have essentially disappeared, decreasing from 21% of the ice cover in 1988 to 5% in 2007 for ice 7+ years old. The greatest change in age distribution occurred within the central Arctic Basin. In this area (region 1, Figure 1), 57% of the ice pack was 5 or more years old in 1987, with 25% of this ice at least 9 years old. By 2007 however, the coverage of ice 5+ years old decreased to 7%, and no very old ice (9 + years old) has survived. From 2004 onward, and in particular in 2006 and 2007, the remaining oldest ice has been confined to a small portion of the Arctic (regions 6–8); essentially a relict of the perennial ice cover of 20 years ago.”
Clearly there are regions of long lived perennial ice. However these are increasingly small. The statements about the complete loss of very old ice refers specifically to the central Arctic basin.
[***] Maslanik JA et al. (2007) A younger, thinner Arctic ice cover: Increased potential for rapid, extensive sea-ice loss Geophys. Res. Lett. 34, L24501
I’m glad that Dr. Meier is savvy enough to understand that it is in everyone’s best interests that he avail himself of the opportunity to come on a site like this. He doesn’t have to, but it really is the wisest course of action.
That said, I’m not very impressed with what he wrote (originally and in the responsive comments. First, given his multiple references to “peer-reviewed” science, he must be far more impressed with the peer review process than I. And I’m not very impressed with his criticism of George Will, either. Pretty weak stuff. When he typed “nit-picky” to describe his point, that should have been a red flag that he needed to do some self-editing.
Then he wrote:
“Global sea ice” simply has no meaning in terms of climate change. The Arctic and Antarctic are unique and separated environments that
respond differently. It would be like taking a drought in Georgia and
torrential rain in Maine, adding those up and claiming that “rainfall is
normal” in the eastern U.S.
Perhaps he thinks this clever, but it’s really not very responsive. The term “global sea ice” has a lot more meaning than the term “global termperature”. Given the context of this whole episode, this aspect of Meier’s argument is really disappointing.
Alarmists are the ones who have raised the specter of declining ice for the purpose of claiming that the GLOBE is changing. To criticize Will for referring to the globe is completely ass-backward.