NASA’s Dr. James Hansen once again goes over the top. See his most recent article in the UK Guardian. Some excerpts:
“The trains carrying coal to power plants are death trains. Coal-fired power plants are factories of death.”
And this:
Clearly, if we burn all fossil fuels, we will destroy the planet we know. Carbon dioxide would increase to 500 ppm or more.
Only one problem there Jimbo, CO2 has been a lot higher in the past. Like 10 times higher.
From JS on June 21, 2005:
One point apparently causing confusion among our readers is the relative abundance of CO2 in the atmosphere today as compared with Earth’s historical levels. Most people seem surprised when we say current levels are relatively low, at least from a long-term perspective – understandable considering the constant media/activist bleat about current levels being allegedly “catastrophically high.” Even more express surprise that Earth is currently suffering one of its chilliest episodes in about six hundred million (600,000,000) years.
Given that the late Ordovician suffered an ice age (with associated mass extinction) while atmospheric CO2 levels were more than 4,000ppm higher than those of today (yes, that’s a full order of magnitude higher), levels at which current ‘guesstimations’ of climate sensitivity to atmospheric CO2 suggest every last skerrick of ice should have been melted off the planet, we admit significant scepticism over simplistic claims of small increment in atmospheric CO2 equating to toasted planet. Granted, continental configuration now is nothing like it was then, Sol’s irradiance differs, as do orbits, obliquity, etc., etc. but there is no obvious correlation between atmospheric CO2 and planetary temperature over the last 600 million years, so why would such relatively tiny amounts suddenly become a critical factor now?
Adjacent graphic ‘Global Temperature and Atmospheric CO2 over Geologic Time’ from Climate and the Carboniferous Period (Monte Hieb, with paleomaps by Christopher R. Scotese). Why not drop by and have a look around?
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Rachel (11:57:02) :
“Apart from that graph being pure fiction, you’re missing the point, spectacularly. Sure, CO2 was higher, millions of years ago. Millions of years ago, Earth was not “the planet we know”. Human beings have never experienced an atmosphere with CO2 levels significantly above what they are today.”
—
And this would bother you on a personal level, an average of 300-400 ppmv is not a hazard to anyone, CO2 is toxic at higher levels, at around 1% (that’s 10,000 ppmv) you might notice something and at 5-10% (yes, 50.000 to a 100.000 ppmv) it starts to get dangerous.
But there is no way that we are ever going to achieve those levels, its even very dubious if we are going to experience a doubling of CO2 (that is 560 ppmv) in this century, a second doubling to 1120 ppmv is not going to happen anyway.
I can’t help but think the rising inanity of the GW crowd (i.e., this post, the BBC post) means that we are getting close to Victory. The kamikaze attacks at the end of WWII are the closest analogy I can think of.
Human beings have never experienced an atmosphere with CO2 levels significantly above what they are today.
Oh yes they have. I worked in atmospheres with CO2 levels twice or greater that which you commonly breathe.
I would like to make a living proving people who spout such CO2 level nonsense by making them put their money where their mouths are.
Let’s see who the men and who the sissies are, at present and elevated CO2
levels.
Bet me. I’d like to clean what’s in your wallet out.
Sekerob (11:44:43) :
Considering the lives lost during mining, burning and chemicals and poisons emitted into the environment equated to many tens if not hundreds of thousands of death annually, worldwide, yes they are death trains.
You might want to check out what little flicks Dubaya left in last minute paybacks to the lobbyists of the mining industry. Check up on the sludge how it pollutes ground water, streams, rivers, lakes and sea. Of course it’s not happening IYBY, you’d think.
Skerob,
Just to bring some perspective in your statement.
Every human activity comes with a risk.
Mining is a risky business but becomes safer with modern technology applied.
If we compare the loss of life caused by the use of the car the mining casualties are irrelevant.
If we look at the benefits of the power generated by coal it’s a life saver and a valuable contributor to a healthy economy. Until we invent something better.
I agree that we should exploit coal in way that causes minimum damage to the environment but if you might think Nature itself does not pollute the environment, have a look at these links:
Natural Oil Spills: http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=36873
Hydrogen Sulfite Eruption: http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/NaturalHazards/view.php?id=18791
Chaitén Volcanic Eruption: http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/NaturalHazards/view.php?id=36725
And thousands of other Natural Events, causing massive human casualties, polluting the air, oceans, rivers, land.
As I said, just to bring matters into perspective.
This is not the first time Hansen has done this this. Recall from 2007 his comparison of coal fired power plants to the Nazi holocaust:
http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/11/26/holocausts/
Jim’s money quote:
“If we cannot stop the building of more coal-fired power plants, those coal trains will be death trains – no less gruesome than if they were boxcars headed to crematoria, loaded with uncountable irreplaceable species.”
When he was called on this, part of his reply was:
“There is nothing scientifically invalid about the above paragraph. If this paragraph makes you uncomfortable, well, perhaps it should.”
This is the reason I no longer have ANY respect for Jim Hansen – as a scientist or a citizen. He is clearly out of control, and the sad thing is that none of his colleagues at GISS (or NASA in general) appear to care a whit about his declining mental state.
The common measure of CO2 is the sampling conducted on quite high volcanoes in Hawaii. Does anyone know of any regular monitoring reported at lower altitudes? Presumably CO2 levels at Sea level are higher given it’s heavier than many other gases in the atmosphere. I imagine CO2 levels in Los Angeles and other super-cities already exceed Hansen’s critical level.
The analogy of the “death trains” and “death factories” with the “Holocaust”….
I have no words for it, absolutely tasteless.
We have found ourselves a Dr. Menken of climatology.
I think we need to start a campaign…
There’s probably no AGW. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.
Just when you think the alarmist claims cannot get any more bizarre. Would Hansen prefer that people froze to death because there was insufficient generation capacity? ‘Death trains’ indeed.
As has been pointed out by so many other commenters, there are viable and mature engineering solutions to the pollution related problems of coal and oil fired power generation.
Bill D (12:14:47) : It seems that a lot of coal plants are being canceled in the US.
Yes. Major world class power plant construction companies are running nearly full-out. We also know that for the next 4 years minimum the US will be terribly hostile to business. Simple conclusion? Move your capital to China and put your company to work building the backlog of coal plants there since the demand can not be met. AND you don’t have to put on all the environmental equipment! Much better profit. Gotta love Kyoto!
So exactly how is it making things better to:
1) Assure the U.S. will have power shortages in the future.
2) Build most new power plants without environmental controls.
3) Move industry to China.
4) Assure the U.S. will stay in recession for the foreseeable future.
5) Accelerate Chinese dominance of the world economy, and as a necessary consequence, the world militarily.
6) Put A LOT more soot on the Arctic.
7) Put A LOT more CO2 into the air.
8) Put A LOT more mercury into the ocean.
etc. etc. etc.
Cause, meet effect.
Rachel (11:57:02) :
“Apart from that graph being pure fiction, you’re missing the point, spectacularly. Sure, CO2 was higher, millions of years ago. Millions of years ago, Earth was not “the planet we know”. Human beings have never experienced an atmosphere with CO2 levels significantly above what they are today”.
I do not exactly know what which point you want to make but human can cope with much higher amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere they breath.
When you sit inside your house with the doors and windows closed CO2 levels quickly rise from atmospheric levels to 6-8000 ppm.
People working in the mines and submarines experience levels above 10.000 ppm.
CO2 is not harmful at those levels.
The planet has still not reached C02 levels for optimum plant growth. That level is 800 to 1,000 ppm. With the declining temperatures we need all the plant growth we can get. The cooling oceans will be taking taking that C02 out of the atmosphere soon if not already.
Stefan – yeah, the conditions at the Cambrian explosion must have been great for primitive life forms, so surely they would also be great for us today.
Mike D – “Warmer is Better” is just banal nonsense. Tell that to the families of the 35,000 who died in the European heatwave of 2003. And please look at this graph:
http://www.globalwarmingart.com/wiki/Image:Ice_Age_Temperature_Rev_png
and point out which periods with temperatures 5° higher than today saw human civilisation flourish.
REPLY: Which would you prefer?
1. Wheat and corn growing in Canada and the northern plains of the USA
2. An ice sheet in the same places as we had 20ky ago?
-Anthony
Perhaps Dr. Hansen should consider a new day job and enter politics since he’s practically there already with his advocacy approach as a science administrator.
E.M.Smith (13:18:23) :
“Cause meet effect”
I agree for 100% with your remark.
The G20 will close down their economy and before we know it we all have to learn
Arab, Russian or Chinese.
In my days any action that would put “The Strategic Interests of a Nation” at stake would be called “Treason and they would shoot you for it”.
Now they call it “Green Policy”.
Look at http://green-agenda.com for more!
It’s safe to say then, that Mr. Hansen wouldn’t object to terrorist acts against the power stations and the trains.
Of course not. He’ll be in court testifying for the defense.
MarcH:
Probably. You can check for yourself.
It’s called a CO2 Draeger tube. You bust off both ends of the glass tube, insert it into the Draeger pump, squeeze it 10 times waiting for the bulb to refill, then read the scale. You just sucked a sample of the air around you and made a measurement via a chemical process.
The tubes are somewhat expensive, but you can test for CO, CO2, NO2, H2S and lots of other stuff. Any good mining supply outfit can get you what you need. I’d guess about $1,000 or more to get started.
I’m willing to bet there are plenty of folks working, breathing and flourishing in lots of places that exceed Mr. Hansen’s Freddy Krueger CO2 boogeyman hiding under the bed.
One more thought on this. If he is truly this concerned about CO2 from burning coal why isn’t he making the case to fight coal fires. Yes coal fires. They are one of the more massive sources of CO2 and could be fought if it was an issue. Instead he advocates attacking businesses. Why not deal with the greater problem first and then move on to things like this?
Unless his goal isn’t truly to stop global warming.
It couldn’t cost that much for Union Pacific to paint their coal cars green and write in white lettering on the side “Saving the American Economy, and the World’s Ecosystem one car load at a time”. Or “100% organic fuel”. A few nice drawing of leaves, etc. It would be real hard to protest next to that.
The Hanson stack in the UK should be painted green to and some slogan painted on it too.
With Enviro-wacko’s it is not the facts that matter it is how much one cares.
People working in the mines and submarines experience levels above 10.000 ppm.
CO2 is not harmful at those levels.
Just don’t get caught doing that by the OSHA or MSHA inspector. The fines are bad and they can order your workforce withdrawn.
Running a fan to clear the air underground or using & cleaning the scrubber on a submarine is far cheaper and you get more work done.
There is a reason why 5000ppm is an 8 hour/5 day limit.
Just don’t listen to weirdos like Hansen who never picked up anything heavier than a pencil or a hamburger in their life, and are deathly afraid of a world in which they are too wimpy to survive in.
The man might have a pretty bad complex he never got over, and is seeking to exact revenge on mankind for rejecting him.
Phillip Bratby (11:40:31) :
I used to work on communications for locomotives (one thing I did was failure analysis for roof top units- that’s where I got the nickname coaldust because I would get dirty hands from the coal dust that accumulated on the units).
The coal transported by the trains provides reliable life giving energy at a cost that currently cannot be matched by the so call “green” technologies. It also releases life giving CO2 — through photosynthesis, plants throughout the world fix the CO2 released and provide food for others. Surely increased CO2 in the atmosphere must be considered a great gift the industralized countries are giving to the world because is allows plants to grow with less water. So, yes, they are life trains, in more than one sense.
Lyman Horne
Rachel,
The 2003 heatwave was an unusual event and so the media paid a lot of attention to it and the deaths it caused. But every winter thousands of people across Europe die because of the cold. This happens regularly year after year, it is ‘normal’ and therefore not particularly media’exciting’.
On any measure cold weather is a far greater killer than hot weather, and extreme cold even more so. We have experienced the worst winter for around 30 years here in the UK and I can guarantee that when the statistics are done the death rate will have increased.
I believe CO², despite its high molecular weight (44, compared to air at 29), is considered well-mixed in the atmosphere, that is, its concentration doesn’t vary with height or between global measurement stations. There may be local variations downstream of volcanoes and power plants.
You generally would want to measure at a location that is free of such upsets. The Mauna Loa measurements are discarded whenever concentration spikes appear, a sign of unfavorable wind currents. Ernst-Georg Beck’s data is criticized for possibly including many down-wind samples. For more information on E-G Beck’s data and writings, see:
http://www.biokurs.de/treibhaus/180CO2_supp.htm
Rachel (11:57:02) :
But, what if it was higher?
Many indoor work environments have a CO2 level of 1,500 to 2,500 ppm. Some industrial environments almost double that. The US Navy permits up to 1,000 ppm CO2 in compressed air scuba tanks and 3,000 ppm in submarines.
So, regardless of what the atmospheric level is, humans actually live a great deal of the time in an environment of much higher concentrations. Fears about elevated levels of CO2 in regards to humans are unwarrented.
The more Hansen speaks and writes and reveals himself, the more he looks exactly like a seriously disturbed kook.