
Mayan ruins in Guatemala.
This is an email I recently received from statistician Dr. Richard Mackey who writes:
The following appeared on Gore’s blog of Nov 19, 2008:
Looking Back to Look Forward November 19, 2008 : 3:04 PM
A new study suggests the Mayan civilization might have collapsed due to environmental disasters:
These models suggest that as ecosystems were destroyed by mismanagement or were transformed by global climatic shifts, the depletion of agricultural and wild foods eventually contributed to the failure of the Maya sociopolitical system,’ writes environmental archaeologist Kitty Emery of the Florida Museum of Natural History in the current Human Ecology journal.
As we move towards solving the climate crisis, we need to remember the consequences to civilizations that refused to take environmental concerns seriously.
If you haven’t read already read it, take a look at Jared Diamond’s book, Collapse.”
This is a most curious reference.
It means that Gore is advocating the abandonment of the IPCC doctrine and barracking for the study and understanding of climate dynamics that ignores totally the IPCC/AWG doctrine and focuses on all the other variables, especially how climate dynamics are driven by atmospheric/oceanic oscillations, the natural internal dynamics of the climate system and the role of the Sun in climate dynamics.
Brian Fagan in Floods, Famines and Emperors El Nino and the fate of civilisations Basic Books 1999, shows that the Maya collapse, whilst having complex political, sociological, technological and ecological factors, was largely driven by the natural atmospheric/oceanic oscillations of ENSO and NAO. The book is one of three by Brian Fagan, Prof of Anthropology UC Santa Barbara, that documents how natural climate variations, ultimately driven by solar activity, have given rise to the catastrophic collapse of civilisations. The book has a chapter on the Mayan civilisation which collapsed around 800 to 900 AD.
Here are some quotes from his book:
“The “Classic Maya collapse” is one of the great controversies of
archaeology, but there is little doubt that droughts, fuelled in part
by El Nino, played an important role.”
“The droughts that afflicted the Maya in the eighth and ninth
centuries resulted from complex, still little understood atmosphere-
ocean interactions, including El Nino events and major decadal shifts
in the North Atlantic Oscillation, as well as two or three decade-long
variations in rainfall over many centuries.”
“Why did the Maya civilisation suddenly come apart? Everyone who
studies the Classic Maya collapse agrees that it was brought on by a
combination of ecological, political, and sociological factors.”
“When the great droughts of the eighth and ninth centuries came, Maya
civilisation everywhere was under increasing stress.”
“The drought was the final straw.”
“The collapse did not come without turmoil and war.”
Brian Fagan describes how the ruling class (the kings had divine powers, they were also shamans and there was a vast aristocracy and their fellow-travellers that the tightly regulated workers toiled to maintain) encouraged population growth beyond what the land could carry; how the rulers enforced rigid farming practices which were supposed to increase food production and the ruler’s incomes but had the effect of undermining farm productivity and diminishing the quality of the poor soils of the area. When there were heavy rains the soil was washed away. In times of drought the soil blew away.
More quotes from Brian Fagan:
“The Maya collapse is a cautionary tale in the dangers of using
technology and people power to expand the carrying capacity of
tropical environments.”
“Atmospheric circulation changes far from the Maya homeland delivered
the coup de grace to rulers no longer able to control their own
destinies because they had exhausted their environmental options in an
endless quest for power and prestige.”
Gore says that we should use our understanding of the Maya collapse help us solve the climate crisis, noting that “we need to remember the consequences to civilizations that refused to take environmental
concerns seriously”.
Given what we know of the Maya collapse, what is Gore really saying?
He is saying that we should take all the IPCC/AWG publications and related papers to the tip and bury them there and put all our efforts into the study and understanding of the reasons for climate dynamics that address every theory except that of IPCC/AWG doctrine.
Specifically, we should understand as well as we can how climate dynamics are driven by atmospheric/oceanic oscillations, the natural internal dynamics of the climate system and the role of the Sun in climate dynamics.
In an overview of his work Brian Fagan concluded: “The whole course of civilisation … may be seen as a process of trading up on the scale of vulnerability”. (Fagan (2004, page xv)).
We are now, as a global community, very high up on that scale.
Allow me to quote a little from my Rhodes Fairbridge paper because of its relevance to Brian Fagan’s work and what Gore is really trying to say, but can’t quite find the right words.
(My paper is here: http://www.griffith.edu.au/conference/ics2007/pdf/ICS176.pdf ).
“In his many publications (for example, NORTH (2005)), Douglass North stresses that if the issues with which we are concerned, such as global warming and the global commons, belong in a world of continuous change (that is, a non-ergodic world), then we face a set of problems that become exceedingly complex. North stresses that our capacity to deal effectively with uncertainty is essential to our succeeding in a
non-ergodic world. History shows that regional effects of climate change are highly variable and that the pattern of change is highly variable. An extremely cold (or hot) year can be followed by extremely hot (or cold) year. Warming and cooling will be beneficial for some regions and catastrophic for others. Brian Fagan has documented in detail relationships between the large-scale and
generally periodic changes in climate and the rise and fall of civilisations, cultures and societies since the dawn of history. The thesis to which Rhodes Fairbridge devoted much of his life is that the
sun, through its relationships with the solar system, is largely responsible for these changes and that we are now on the cusp of one of the major changes that feature in the planet’s history. As
Douglass North showed, the main responsibility of governments in managing the impact of the potentially catastrophic events that arise in a non-ergodic world is to mange society’s response to them so as to
enable the society to adapt as efficiently as possible to them.
Amongst other things, this would mean being better able to anticipate and manage our response to climate change, to minimise suffering and maximise benefits and the efficiency of our adaptation to a climate that is ever-changing – sometimes catastrophically – but generally predictable within bounds of uncertainty that statisticians can estimate. At the very least, this requires that the scientific community acts on the wise counsel of Rhodes W Fairbridge and presents governments with advice that has regard to the entire field of planetary-lunar-solar dynamics, including gravitational dynamics.
This field has to be understood so that the dynamics of terrestrial climate can be understood.
References:
North, D. C., 2005. Understanding the Process of Economic Change
Princeton University Press.
Fagan, B., 2004. The Long Summer. How Climate Changed Civilization.
Basic Books.”
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Leif,
It’s the change of speed that matter. Look at it this way:
The sun makes appr. 292 revolutions in 20 years. The barycenter orbit adds 1 revolution in 20 years and this revolution is not constant so it will appear as a revolution variation.
Imagine there is one inner layer and one outer layer. If you are an observer at the rim of the inner where you can ‘see’ the outer layer, when the sun speeds up the outer layer will appear to be moving in one direction, when the sun slows down it will appear to be moving in the other direction.
I don’t know how much the acceleration is changing so I can’t say how much the revolution changes but I would guess around 1 %
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/260/5115/1778
🙂 (yeah I know, that 1% is mainly the solar cycle)
The effect in question here should be somewhere well below 1/292 I guess.
This is not an ‘idea’, it’s a question why it can’t be an idea.
Sorry I mixed revolution and rotation
lgl (00:31:31) :
Imagine there is one inner layer and one outer layer. If you are an observer at the rim of the inner where you can ’see’ the outer layer, when the sun speeds up the outer layer will appear to be moving in one direction, when the sun slows down it will appear to be moving in the other direction.
Since both the inner layer and the outer layer make 292 ‘revolutions’ in 20 years and since both the inner layer and the outer layer go around the barycenter once in 20 years, they both move together and there will be no relative motion as they make the same number of ‘revolutions’ in 20 years.
The Earth turns 366 times in a year. Add 1 revolution going around the Sun [your argument, now]. Imagine there is one inner layer and one outer layer. If you are an observer at the rim of the inner where you can ’see’ the outer layer, when the Earth speeds up the outer layer will appear to be moving in one direction, when the Earth slows down it will appear to be moving in the other direction. Let the floor of my house be in the inner layer and the roof in the outer layer, then as the Earth goes around in its orbit, the floor moves one way and the roof moves the other way. No wonder there is a crack in the wall.
lgl (13:06:53) :
Leif,
Yet nobody has ever seen any of the huge effects that must have
Oh yes we have, volcanoes can be hugh. (and there’s a 18-yr cycle in the PDO)
Here’s the PDO Index
http://jisao.washington.edu/pdo/
Not much indication of an 18 year cycle there.
Phil. (07:36:51) :
lgl (13:06:53) :
Here’s the PDO Index […]
Not much indication of an 18 year cycle there.
and one would expect a daily effect from the ‘mechanism’ as the far-side goes in an arc that is 4 times wider than the front-side [towards the Moon]. In any event, there are no such effects and none would be expected because the ‘mechanism’ does not operate. Nonsense at its finest. But that never deters people, in fact, often is an encouragement [“see, I have an open mind”, “I’m able to think outside of the box” – of reason, “I’m on the forefront of the fight against scientific dogma”, etc, etc].
Phil,
I like this one better: http://virakkraft.com/PDO-mag-dec.ppt
I agree you can’t really tell whether it’s a 20 yr or 18 yr cycle from this but I took the liberty of using the peaks in the declination curve at 1925 and right before 1980, that’s very close to 18×3 yrs. (and there are of course other cycles making phase shifts)
Leif,
Yes you are doing a fine job, I really appreciate it.
Just to clarify the ‘sharp bend’ or radius. The radius only matters because it changes through the orbit. That difference makes, or at least reflects, the acceleration. Once the acceleration is determined the radius probably doesn’t matter. Earlier I didn’t realize that if you increase the radius the travelling distance difference between the ‘inner side’ and the ‘outer side’ remains 2*pi*r, (inner side beeing the side of the sun closest to the barycenter and r=solar radius) but, as you know, I have a problem with numbers so not sure my calculations are correct.
Your example with the house could have been better. You know there need to be some distance between the points. My example was, as you know, a simplification.
It’s an easy experiment to do. Just place a bowl of water on a rotating (note, rotating 🙂 plate and place it to one side of the plate so that the rotation center is not at the center of the bowl (sun around the barycenter). Then spin the plate slowly, increase and decrease the speed and you will see what I’m telling. (also put some grains of coffee or something in the water and some color (milk) to get good contrast.)
And of course report your result here 🙂
Damn, maybe I have to buy that video camera just to show you.
lgl (10:17:40) :
Your example with the house could have been better. You know there need to be some distance between the points. My example was, as you know, a simplification.
It does not need to be better, because our measuring accuracy today is so high that such an effect could easily be found [and would earn its discoverer a Nobel Prize]. But let the outer layer be the satellites in geostationary orbit [38,000 km high]. These do not move one way and the surface the other way as the Earth moves in its orbit. [or just take the Moon, it doesn’t do it either]
Then spin the plate slowly, increase and decrease the speed and you will see what I’m telling You will see the water at the inner rim move radially outwards towards to outer rim, but not start the water rotating around the center of the bowl. Instead of a bowl use a long skinny tray reaching from the center of the plate to the outer rim to see what I’m telling. In any event the movement is always away from the axis of the plate regardless of increasing or decreasing speed. The water never begins to move back towards the center. And you are introducing the friction between the bottom of the bowl and the plate to make the water move. Image [as in space] that there were no such friction, then the bowl would just stay put and you can rotate the plate to your heart’s content and the bowl and the water would never move.
Leif Svalgaard (22:44:33) :
I was being specific. Please respond to each point.
lgl (13:36:57) :
“Shrink the mass a bit more, stronger circulation would follow
No, acceleration would decrease. And if you removed Jupiter, Sun’s acceleration would decrease.
“Shrink the mass of one star [e.g. with a stronger stellar wind]. That would move the barycenter closer to the other star”
Agree?
“thus making the bend sharper”
Agree?
“One side of the sun is moving in a sharper bend than the other.”
Agree? [actually your own words]
“and the circulation stronger.”
Sharper bend = stronger acceleration
Agree?
“Shrink the mass a bit more”
This move the barycenter closer, hence making the bend sharper.
Agree?
“sharper bend = stronger acceleration”
Agree?
“stronger acceleration = stronger circulation”
Agree?
Leif Svalgaard (11:00:18) :
The water never begins to move back towards the center.
Disregarding gravity, of course.
Leif,
In my example with the layers I didn’t say they would move in opposite directions. You, the observer, is rotating along with the inner layer (or actually revolving this time:), but one time the outer layer is moving faster than you, next time it is moving slower than you, so from your point of reference the outer layer is moving first in one then the other direction.
Your questions is not relevant anymore, since I have said radius probably is not as important as I first stated. (and your far away little star can not change the acceleration of the large star much)
We can simplify even more. You have a slowly rotating bowl of water. Then you stop the rotation, and the outer parts will get a higher angular velocity than the inner parts because of its higher momentum.
I can see I have missed a long thread ….
Old Coach (18:03:57) :
A fair question – one that has probably been asked before on this blog – is the following:
How much does Earth respond to the orbit of Jupiter.
I have been playing with that question. Jupiter does not generate significant tides on Earth, but it (together with Saturn++) does perturb the Earth’s orbit around the Sun. By my own revised estimates (to be taken with some skepticism) it amounts to about 2/3 Lunar distance (relative to a perfect ellipse) and with a period just over a year. But the Earth is still in free fall as i has been emphasized.
lgl (14:09:30) :
since I have said radius probably is not as important as I first stated.
You surely change your mind a lot. good thing that Mother Nature doesn’t.
We can simplify even more. You have a slowly rotating bowl of water. Then you stop the rotation, and the outer parts will get a higher angular velocity than the inner parts because of its higher momentum.
So if I slow the rotation a bit, the outer parts will speed up…
Again, good that Mother Nature doesn’t know about this…
Leif,
Yes, unlike you I didn’t conclude how everything works decades ago.
“So if I slow the rotation a bit, the outer parts will speed up”
Relative to the inner parts, yes.
http://einstein.atmos.colostate.edu/~mcnoldy/spintank/
There’s even a video:
http://einstein.atmos.colostate.edu/~mcnoldy/spintank/btrop_instab.mpg
(see I even have Einstein on my team 🙂
And this is not caused by friction. Without friction the effect would be even bigger.
I must say I’m not sure about this when the bowl is at the center of rotation but taking one step back to the rotating plate, I’m sure you are wrong when you say “but not start the water rotating around the center of the bowl” It will.
Carsten Arnholm, Norway (15:52:21) :
By my own revised estimates (to be taken with some skepticism) it amounts to about 2/3 Lunar distance (relative to a perfect ellipse) and with a period just over a year.
This is much too large. Try again. I think the influence of Jupiter is 2251 km = 0.00586 lunar distances with a period of 398.9 days, or ~100 times smaller than what you have.
lgl (05:49:17) :
And this is not caused by friction. Without friction the effect would be even bigger.
Without friction none of these spin tables would work. So describe why the lack of friction would make the effect bigger.
Because when decelerating the friction will decrease the speed of the outer part.
When accelerating the friction will pull on the outer part so it will not drag behind as much as it otherwise would do. I’m of course talking about friction between the water and the bowl. I you mean it would not work without friction between the bowl and the plate you are of course right, but that’s not relevant, the setup is just a way to simulate the system.
So you still do not agree the water will start circulating? How can that be avoided when the tangential speed of the outer rim is much higher the that of the inner when you stop the rotation? Do the experiment and see for yourself.
Leif Svalgaard (07:40:27) :
This is much too large. Try again. I think the influence of Jupiter is 2251 km = 0.00586 lunar distances with a period of 398.9 days, or ~100 times smaller than what you have.
Do you have a reference to support this value? I agree on the period roughly, but 2251 km appears to be a very small value indeed. It sounds like the perturbations caused by the Moon?
I am playing with some close encounters of asteroids that seem to work reasonably well, so … a reference would be of interest.
Carsten Arnholm, Norway (11:43:37) :
“This is much too large. Try again. I think the influence of Jupiter is 2251 km = 0.00586 lunar distances with a period of 398.9 days, or ~100 times smaller than what you have.”
Do you have a reference to support this value?
Do I need one? 🙂
The standard reference is JPL’s ephemeris calculator that we have referred to earlier, but here is it again: http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?horizons.
Here http://www.leif.org/research/Earth%20Orbit%201990-2008.pdf is plot of the distance between the Center of the Sun and the Center of the Earth. This distance is the one seen by a solar photon [emitted ~8 minutes before observed at Earth] that makes up TSI. The data is for 1990-present and the X-axis is in days. Distance is plotted in AU.
In the second plot I show the result of subtracting a perfect sine wave with a period of precisely one year. This makes any deviations caused by other bodies easier to see. In particular, you can see the 1/2 year period of the diminished difference between center and shell…
In the third plot I show the FFT power spectrum for the difference. Because the strictly one-year period has been removed, there is a sharp dip right at 1 year. [frequency 0.0027278]. And a 1/2 year period has been introduced. You can also see the synodic periods of other bodies as indicated by the arrows, in particularly the largest effect due to the Moon, and the second largest due to Jupiter [power = 0.00001505 AU = 2251 km].
you can see the 1/2 year period of the diminished difference between center and shell… ===>
you can see the 1/2 year period of the difference between a circular and an eccentric orbit.
Thanks, Leif. I will give it a good study….