
Mayan ruins in Guatemala.
This is an email I recently received from statistician Dr. Richard Mackey who writes:
The following appeared on Gore’s blog of Nov 19, 2008:
Looking Back to Look Forward November 19, 2008 : 3:04 PM
A new study suggests the Mayan civilization might have collapsed due to environmental disasters:
These models suggest that as ecosystems were destroyed by mismanagement or were transformed by global climatic shifts, the depletion of agricultural and wild foods eventually contributed to the failure of the Maya sociopolitical system,’ writes environmental archaeologist Kitty Emery of the Florida Museum of Natural History in the current Human Ecology journal.
As we move towards solving the climate crisis, we need to remember the consequences to civilizations that refused to take environmental concerns seriously.
If you haven’t read already read it, take a look at Jared Diamond’s book, Collapse.”
This is a most curious reference.
It means that Gore is advocating the abandonment of the IPCC doctrine and barracking for the study and understanding of climate dynamics that ignores totally the IPCC/AWG doctrine and focuses on all the other variables, especially how climate dynamics are driven by atmospheric/oceanic oscillations, the natural internal dynamics of the climate system and the role of the Sun in climate dynamics.
Brian Fagan in Floods, Famines and Emperors El Nino and the fate of civilisations Basic Books 1999, shows that the Maya collapse, whilst having complex political, sociological, technological and ecological factors, was largely driven by the natural atmospheric/oceanic oscillations of ENSO and NAO. The book is one of three by Brian Fagan, Prof of Anthropology UC Santa Barbara, that documents how natural climate variations, ultimately driven by solar activity, have given rise to the catastrophic collapse of civilisations. The book has a chapter on the Mayan civilisation which collapsed around 800 to 900 AD.
Here are some quotes from his book:
“The “Classic Maya collapse” is one of the great controversies of
archaeology, but there is little doubt that droughts, fuelled in part
by El Nino, played an important role.”
“The droughts that afflicted the Maya in the eighth and ninth
centuries resulted from complex, still little understood atmosphere-
ocean interactions, including El Nino events and major decadal shifts
in the North Atlantic Oscillation, as well as two or three decade-long
variations in rainfall over many centuries.”
“Why did the Maya civilisation suddenly come apart? Everyone who
studies the Classic Maya collapse agrees that it was brought on by a
combination of ecological, political, and sociological factors.”
“When the great droughts of the eighth and ninth centuries came, Maya
civilisation everywhere was under increasing stress.”
“The drought was the final straw.”
“The collapse did not come without turmoil and war.”
Brian Fagan describes how the ruling class (the kings had divine powers, they were also shamans and there was a vast aristocracy and their fellow-travellers that the tightly regulated workers toiled to maintain) encouraged population growth beyond what the land could carry; how the rulers enforced rigid farming practices which were supposed to increase food production and the ruler’s incomes but had the effect of undermining farm productivity and diminishing the quality of the poor soils of the area. When there were heavy rains the soil was washed away. In times of drought the soil blew away.
More quotes from Brian Fagan:
“The Maya collapse is a cautionary tale in the dangers of using
technology and people power to expand the carrying capacity of
tropical environments.”
“Atmospheric circulation changes far from the Maya homeland delivered
the coup de grace to rulers no longer able to control their own
destinies because they had exhausted their environmental options in an
endless quest for power and prestige.”
Gore says that we should use our understanding of the Maya collapse help us solve the climate crisis, noting that “we need to remember the consequences to civilizations that refused to take environmental
concerns seriously”.
Given what we know of the Maya collapse, what is Gore really saying?
He is saying that we should take all the IPCC/AWG publications and related papers to the tip and bury them there and put all our efforts into the study and understanding of the reasons for climate dynamics that address every theory except that of IPCC/AWG doctrine.
Specifically, we should understand as well as we can how climate dynamics are driven by atmospheric/oceanic oscillations, the natural internal dynamics of the climate system and the role of the Sun in climate dynamics.
In an overview of his work Brian Fagan concluded: “The whole course of civilisation … may be seen as a process of trading up on the scale of vulnerability”. (Fagan (2004, page xv)).
We are now, as a global community, very high up on that scale.
Allow me to quote a little from my Rhodes Fairbridge paper because of its relevance to Brian Fagan’s work and what Gore is really trying to say, but can’t quite find the right words.
(My paper is here: http://www.griffith.edu.au/conference/ics2007/pdf/ICS176.pdf ).
“In his many publications (for example, NORTH (2005)), Douglass North stresses that if the issues with which we are concerned, such as global warming and the global commons, belong in a world of continuous change (that is, a non-ergodic world), then we face a set of problems that become exceedingly complex. North stresses that our capacity to deal effectively with uncertainty is essential to our succeeding in a
non-ergodic world. History shows that regional effects of climate change are highly variable and that the pattern of change is highly variable. An extremely cold (or hot) year can be followed by extremely hot (or cold) year. Warming and cooling will be beneficial for some regions and catastrophic for others. Brian Fagan has documented in detail relationships between the large-scale and
generally periodic changes in climate and the rise and fall of civilisations, cultures and societies since the dawn of history. The thesis to which Rhodes Fairbridge devoted much of his life is that the
sun, through its relationships with the solar system, is largely responsible for these changes and that we are now on the cusp of one of the major changes that feature in the planet’s history. As
Douglass North showed, the main responsibility of governments in managing the impact of the potentially catastrophic events that arise in a non-ergodic world is to mange society’s response to them so as to
enable the society to adapt as efficiently as possible to them.
Amongst other things, this would mean being better able to anticipate and manage our response to climate change, to minimise suffering and maximise benefits and the efficiency of our adaptation to a climate that is ever-changing – sometimes catastrophically – but generally predictable within bounds of uncertainty that statisticians can estimate. At the very least, this requires that the scientific community acts on the wise counsel of Rhodes W Fairbridge and presents governments with advice that has regard to the entire field of planetary-lunar-solar dynamics, including gravitational dynamics.
This field has to be understood so that the dynamics of terrestrial climate can be understood.
References:
North, D. C., 2005. Understanding the Process of Economic Change
Princeton University Press.
Fagan, B., 2004. The Long Summer. How Climate Changed Civilization.
Basic Books.”
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Leif
b t w in your two moons example their center of mass would have been at center of earth as would the earth-moons center of mass, hence no tide.
Is that a general rule that if the center of mass is at the center of rotation then no tidal force, and the tide increases as the distance between those two centers increases? Think I’ve read about a Jupiter moon beeing very volcanic because of tidal forces from Jupiter.
General rule? No, only if it is the mass that is changing and not the distance.
lgl (04:28:34) :
I did say ‘planetary center of mass’, meaning planets only. […] Will the sun be accelerating in an non-uniform gravitational field?
How is Mother Nature to know what you say? You can’t cherry pick like that.
There is acceleration in any field, uniform or not. Tides are the result of a non-uniform field. There are always tides. The only question is how high they are.
b t w in your two moons example their center of mass would have been at center of earth as would the earth-moons center of mass, hence no tide.
I immediately amended the example to place the CoM at the surface, hence gigantic tides.
Think I’ve read about a Jupiter moon beeing very volcanic because of tidal forces from Jupiter.
Yes, Io is being ‘kneaded’ by tidal forces. Again, tides are always there, sometimes they are important, sometimes they are not. It all depends on the distances [cubed], masses, and the diameter of the body. In the case of the Sun, the planetary tides amounts to 1 millimeter.
It all depends on the distances [cubed],
Inverse distances.
lgl (04:28:34) :
I did say ‘planetary center of mass’, meaning planets only. Then you have a two body system
Imagine you had a two-body system: a double star. Their center of mas [CoM] is halfway between them. Now, put the mass of one of stars at the CoM as you will want for the planets. Putting that mass at the CoM, makes a new CoM to be halfway between the first star and the CoM where you want the mass of the other star to be. Then you want the mass to move to the CoM, this makes yet another new CoM halfway, etc, and before you know it the two stars are on top of each other. Nature avoids that absurdity by not working the way you want it to. The tide depends on the distance to the physical planet.
Old Coach
Correct me if I am wrong- rusty.
As currently modeled by standard theory- Strong, nuclear, and electromagnetic forces are communicated with photons. There is a “particle” interaction “transmitting” this force. In other words, information is being communicated. The electron -or whatever- “notices” this communication.
Gravity is still up for grabs. Some theories suggest a graviton that transmits the “force”, others suggest that it is not a force par se and there is no particle interaction. If gravity is space-time geometry, then no information is communicated by a vehicle and and so it is not “noticed”.
All modern theories are field theories . Actually quantum field theories (QFT) with 1 exception , the gravity .
QFT applied to electromagnetical field makes appear special excitation states of the field called photons . So it is said that electromagnetical forces between charged particles are “mediated” by photons .
QFT applied to weak nuclear forces makes appear vector bosons as “mediators” .
QFT applied to strong nuclear forces (the name is QCD – quantum chromodynamics) makes appear gluons as “mediators” .
Those theories are not really separated entities , when the energy goes up , they unify (aka you can’t make the difference) . So for example the electromagnetical and weak force unify in an electroweak force and there is a unified theory describing it (valid only above the unification energy) .
Next comes the strong nuclear force .
And last , if everything goes well , gravity .
Gravity is a special case because a QFT of gravity is not fully developped .
The string theory is probably the best (some would say the unique) canddate for that .
Sofar the “working” gravity theory is the general relativity that we have practically unchanged for 100 years .
In GR no gravitationnal “forces” exist , matter and energy have as property to modify (curve) the geometry . So the geometry becomes just another physical field and boides only follow the valleys and ridges in the space-time without feeling any “forces” .
As it is a field , it has waves . A gravitationnal wave is a ripple in the geometry that propagates .
Unfortunately quantifying gravity necessitates to quantify space-time what is a problem because in quantum mechanics space-time is the background where things happen .
It’s like trying to write a theatre piece where the stage is changing all the time .
So it is hard to do and that’s why after 80 years it is still not done .
But a rather “naive” attempt at the quantification of the general relativity shows that the field would be represented by a massless particle of spin 2 that was called graviton .
It’s just another way to describe a gravity wave but sofar none were observed .
On top the place where the quantum gravity would really be necessary and apparent is the most unpleasant place in the whole Universe – a black hole and its central singularity .
Lgl seems to be ignoring air resistance for experiments done “on Earth”. If you do the same experiments in a vacuum there will be no difference in acceleration.
Ok, I realize I’ve been talking tide but been thinking ‘something that alters fluid flows’, not exactly the same thing. Agree tide is not the issue.
I will rephrase to: Is the sun accelerating and decelerating?
If it is, orbiting the barycenter, the side closest to the barycenter will accelerate far less than the other side. This must have impact on the fluid flows in the sun.
Luckily I have evidence: http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0711/0711.0799v1.pdf fig.6 number two from the top. Frequencies: 0.09/yr (Jupiter) 0.5 (Mars) 1 (Earth) and 1.6 (Venus)
Igl,
Can you please give up? This is becoming like the play where we are waiting for Godo.( Becket?).
The paper you cite has nothing to do with the imaginary world through the looking glass you are occupying.
” Off with their heads” said the Red Queen.
anna
Sorry, no, I never give up, but I’m done with all the stupid stuff.
This last question is relevant and simple, why don’t you answer it?
lgl (14:15:08) :
Sorry, no, I never give up, but I’m done with all the stupid stuff. This last question is relevant and simple, why don’t you answer it?
These variations have been known for almost 30 years [but now seen more clearly]. You have cause and effect backwards. Just like on the Earth, the length of the day show seasonal changes because of flows in the atmosphere, solar activity causes flows or ‘winds’ in the uppermost part of the solar convection zone, which then results in the changes of the ‘rotation’ [they are actually just measuring the winds in the solar atmosphere – for a description of this see also http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~obs/torsional.html ]. These changes are akin to the changes in an ice skaters spin as she raises and lowers her arms. And nowhere in your ‘evidence’ is there a hint or suggestion of these changes being caused by ‘barycentric’ or planetary voodoo. You might find wordings like gravity waves or inertial waves [Rossby waves – google it to see what these words mean]. But that does not mean that waves are caused by the planets’ gravity or the solar ‘inertial motions’. They simply mean that gravity [or the Coriolis pseudo-force] is the restoring force for random small pertubations, pulling the disturbance down again, but with an ‘overshot’ that has to be restored, etc. See the google for more.
There is a time to give up, namely when the idea has been shown to be untenable. To continue is not only silly, but a real waste of time, except as [as you said] an act one can find in an amusement park [I don’t need to go there on vacation, the amusement is right here. You are, of course invincible in your ideas, protected by the ‘amour of blissful and stupendous ignorance’]. But, try to consider if the ‘fun’ by now possibly is past its ‘sell by date’.
lgl (14:15:08) :
Perhaps you missed the conclusion by the authors:
“Therefore, apart from a possible periodicity characteristic of solar-cycle variation, we find no evidence for periodicity at any depth.”
All the little wiggles are just noise. The noise-level can also be determined from the data, and the authors take that into account for their conclusion.
IGL,
I will answer this, but it will be my last reply on this thread. Do not expect a reply by me to more comments.
I will rephrase to: Is the sun accelerating and decelerating?
As Leif already told you, anything going around in an ellipse about a gravitational center will be accelerating and decelerating .
If it is, orbiting the barycenter, the side closest to the barycenter will accelerate far less than the other side. This must have impact on the fluid flows in the sun..
A qualified no to both as far as significant effects go. When first the planetary system emerged, however it emerged, all the Angular Momenta were balanced and distributed in the system as rotational AM about the center and rotational AM about the self. Angular momentum is conserved and does not change per planet except by the very small ( for the sun) gravitational exchanges that induce the tiny tides of 1mm in total on the sun, as Leif has told us.
Tides from the moon on earth are bigger, more energy and angular momentum is exchanged and finally after n ( where n is a very large number) years the moon will fall in the earth . After n1 more years ( where n1 is a very much larger number) the whole planetary system will theoretically fall in the sun and become one body ( whatever body the sun will be at that time) .
Let me give you an analogy of why your questions are irrelevant and why you cannot understand and accept the answers.
When a young child learns arithmetic in grade school, it is a great mental exercise to figure out problems with :” water runs into a reservoir at 30 kilos a second and goes out of the reservoir 20 kilos a second from one faucet and 3 kilos a second from a leak , how long will it take to fill the reservoir?”
And this because the child does not know algebra. Once the tool of algebra is assimilated, the problem is trivial.
In the same way, you are trying to think of solutions of gravitational systems using logical tools closer to algebra, when the tools needed are calculus and classical mechanics 101 or so. It cannot be done. You have to accept the solutions found by people who know how to do the calculations, or study enough to do the calculations and convince yourself.
Leif,
Just one last question. How can you give a liquid/gaseous body a non-uniform acceleration without creating turbulence?
Their conclusion doesn’t matter as long as they show:
“Fig. 6. Power spectrum of temporal variation in rotational kinetic
energy in different depth ranges”
“Coriolis pseudo-force” is fine, maybe that’s all we need.
lgl (23:43:30) :
How can you give a liquid/gaseous body a non-uniform acceleration without creating turbulence?
Since the acceleration is not non-uniform, it doesn’t matter. You confuse the variation with time with that with space.
lgl (23:43:30) :
Just one last question. How can you give a liquid/gaseous body a non-uniform acceleration without creating turbulence?
The Earth-Moon barycenter is 1700 km below the surface. So, to take your ‘theory’ to its conclusion, the ocean [liquid]/atmosphere [gaseous] on one side of the Earth is 1700 km from the barycenter and on the other side 8100 km from the barycenter, so one side ‘accelerates’ a lot more [has a much tighter ‘orbit’] than the other side. Yet nobody has ever seen any of the huge effects that must have. Also, the tides raised by the Moon does not stem from all the Moon’s mass be concentrated 1700 km below the surface [an earlier ‘idea’ of yours]. But is is really silly to even discuss any of this as
(1) it is nonsense
(2) even if the nonsense is made clear to you, you will not waver.
Leif
No I’m not. One side of the sun is moving in a sharper bend than the other.
Suppose you could turn on the breaks and stop the sun in it’s barycentric orbit you would see one he.. of a circulation.
lgl (09:16:34) :
No I’m not. One side of the sun is moving in a sharper bend than the other.
[sigh] They are both in free fall and feel no forces. Imagine a double star [two equal stars]. The barycenter is halfway between them. You say, that one side of the star is moving in a sharper bend than the other and hence a circulation is set up. Let’s run with that nonsense and see what trouble that gets us into. Shrink the mass of one star [e.g. with a stronger stellar wind]. That would move the barycenter closer to the other star, thus making the bend sharper and the circulation stronger. Shrink the mass a bit more, stronger circulation would follow. Keep shrinking, the barycenter moves closer and closer to the ‘main’ star, the bend gets sharper and sharper, and the circulation gets stronger and stronger. So, by decreasing the gravitational ‘force’ between the two stars [F=H.M1.M2/r^2] you increase the effect on the circulation. For maximum effect, remove the smaller star altogether. This is like the homeopathic claim that the more dilute the medicine is, the better it works.
Suppose you could turn on the breaks and stop the sun in it’s barycentric orbit you would see one he.. of a circulation.
An easier way [which is physically possible, at least as a thought experiment] is to remove Jupiter [and the other planets] . I don’t think the Sun would notice.
Leif Svalgaard (10:11:44) :
two stars [F=H.M1.M2/r^2] ===> F = G * M1 * M2 / (r*r)
Leif,
Yet nobody has ever seen any of the huge effects that must have
Oh yes we have, volcanoes can be hugh. (and there’s a 18-yr cycle in the PDO)
http://www.springerlink.com/content/t8v61x328483v045/
I have accepted tide is not the issue so forget it. (but my earlier ‘idea’ was not like you describe it and it was just an attempt to get you to say something smart about the mysterious gravity)
Shrink the mass a bit more, stronger circulation would follow
No, acceleration would decrease. And if you removed Jupiter, Sun’s acceleration would decrease.
I just noticed a not so nice review of this discussion over here – http://thingsbreak.wordpress.com/2008/12/01/watts-up-with-that-takes-aim-at-gore-shoots-foot-instead/
Peter,
They don’t matter. Thingsbreak.com has about four readers, while WUWT has passed 6 million hits.
Thank you Smokey, I almost clicked that link. I would’ve increased his readership by 25%.
Mike
lgl (13:36:57) :
“Shrink the mass a bit more, stronger circulation would follow
No, acceleration would decrease. And if you removed Jupiter, Sun’s acceleration would decrease.
“Shrink the mass of one star [e.g. with a stronger stellar wind]. That would move the barycenter closer to the other star”
Agree?
“thus making the bend sharper”
Agree?
“One side of the sun is moving in a sharper bend than the other.”
Agree? [actually your own words]
“and the circulation stronger.”
Sharper bend = stronger acceleration
Agree?
“Shrink the mass a bit more”
This move the barycenter closer, hence making the bend sharper.
Agree?
“sharper bend = stronger acceleration”
Agree?
“stronger acceleration = stronger circulation”
Agree?