Statistician debunks Gore's climate linkage to the collapse of the Mayan civilisation

http://www.myanmars.net/myanmar-history/mayan-civilization2.jpg

Mayan ruins in Guatemala.

This is an email I recently received from statistician Dr. Richard Mackey who writes:

The following appeared on Gore’s blog of Nov 19, 2008:

Looking Back to Look Forward

Looking Back to Look Forward November 19, 2008 : 3:04 PM

A new study suggests the Mayan civilization might have collapsed due to environmental disasters:

These models suggest that as ecosystems were destroyed by mismanagement or were transformed by global climatic shifts, the depletion of agricultural and wild foods eventually contributed to the failure of the Maya sociopolitical system,’ writes environmental archaeologist Kitty Emery of the Florida Museum of Natural History in the current Human Ecology journal.

As we move towards solving the climate crisis, we need to remember the consequences to civilizations that refused to take environmental concerns seriously.

If you haven’t read already read it, take a look at Jared Diamond’s book, Collapse.”

This is a most curious reference.

It means that Gore is advocating the abandonment of the IPCC doctrine and barracking for the study and understanding of climate dynamics that ignores totally the IPCC/AWG doctrine and focuses on all the other variables, especially how climate dynamics are driven by atmospheric/oceanic oscillations, the natural internal dynamics of the climate system and the role of the Sun in climate dynamics.

Brian Fagan in Floods, Famines and Emperors  El Nino and the fate of civilisations  Basic Books 1999, shows that the Maya collapse, whilst having complex political, sociological, technological and ecological factors, was largely driven by the natural atmospheric/oceanic oscillations of ENSO and NAO.  The book is one of three by Brian Fagan, Prof of Anthropology UC Santa Barbara, that documents how natural climate variations, ultimately driven by solar activity, have given rise to the catastrophic collapse of civilisations.  The book has a chapter on the Mayan civilisation which collapsed around 800 to 900 AD.

Here are some quotes from his book:

“The “Classic Maya collapse” is one of the great controversies of

archaeology, but there is little doubt that droughts, fuelled in part

by El Nino, played an important role.”

“The droughts that afflicted the Maya in the eighth and ninth

centuries resulted from complex, still little understood atmosphere-

ocean interactions, including El Nino events and major decadal shifts

in the North Atlantic Oscillation, as well as two or three decade-long

variations in rainfall over many centuries.”

“Why did the Maya civilisation suddenly come apart?  Everyone who

studies the Classic Maya collapse agrees that it was brought on by a

combination of ecological, political, and sociological factors.”

“When the great droughts of the eighth and ninth centuries came, Maya

civilisation everywhere was under increasing stress.”

“The drought was the final straw.”

“The collapse did not come without turmoil and war.”

Brian Fagan describes how the ruling class (the kings had divine powers, they were also shamans and there was a vast aristocracy and their fellow-travellers that the tightly regulated workers toiled to maintain) encouraged population growth beyond what the land could carry; how the rulers enforced rigid farming practices which were supposed to increase food production and the ruler’s incomes but had the effect of undermining farm productivity and diminishing the quality of the poor soils of the area.  When there were heavy rains the soil was washed away.  In times of drought the soil blew away.

More quotes from Brian Fagan:

“The Maya collapse is a cautionary tale in the dangers of using

technology and people power to expand the carrying capacity of

tropical environments.”

“Atmospheric circulation changes far from the Maya homeland delivered

the coup de grace to rulers no longer able to control their own

destinies because they had exhausted their environmental options in an

endless quest for power and prestige.”

Gore says that we should use our understanding of the Maya collapse help us solve the climate crisis, noting that “we need to remember the consequences to civilizations that refused to take environmental

concerns seriously”.

Given what we know of the Maya collapse, what is Gore really saying?

He is saying that we should take all the IPCC/AWG publications and related papers to the tip and bury them there and put all our efforts into the study and understanding of the reasons for climate dynamics that address every theory except that of IPCC/AWG doctrine.

Specifically, we should understand as well as we can how climate dynamics are driven by atmospheric/oceanic oscillations, the natural internal dynamics of the climate system and the role of the Sun in climate dynamics.

In an overview of his work Brian Fagan concluded:  “The whole course of civilisation … may be seen as a process of trading up on the scale of vulnerability”.  (Fagan (2004, page xv)).

We are now, as a global community, very high up on that scale.

Allow me to quote a little from my Rhodes Fairbridge paper because of its relevance to Brian Fagan’s work and what Gore is really trying to say, but can’t quite find the right words.

(My paper is here: http://www.griffith.edu.au/conference/ics2007/pdf/ICS176.pdf ).

“In his many publications (for example, NORTH (2005)), Douglass North stresses that if the issues with which we are concerned, such as global warming and the global commons, belong in a world of continuous change (that is, a non-ergodic world), then we face a set of problems that become exceedingly complex.  North stresses that our capacity to deal effectively with uncertainty is essential to our succeeding in a

non-ergodic world.  History shows that regional effects of climate change are highly variable and that the pattern of change is highly variable.  An extremely cold (or hot) year can be followed by extremely hot (or cold) year.  Warming and cooling will be beneficial for some regions and catastrophic for others.  Brian Fagan has documented in detail relationships between the large-scale and

generally periodic changes in climate and the rise and fall of civilisations, cultures and societies since the dawn of history.  The thesis to which Rhodes Fairbridge devoted much of his life is that the

sun, through its relationships with the solar system, is largely responsible for these changes and that we are now on the cusp of one of the major changes that feature in the planet’s history.  As

Douglass North showed, the main responsibility of governments in managing the impact of the potentially catastrophic events that arise in a non-ergodic world is to mange society’s response to them so as to

enable the society to adapt as efficiently as possible to them.

Amongst other things, this would mean being better able to anticipate and manage our response to climate change, to minimise suffering and maximise benefits and the efficiency of our adaptation to a climate that is ever-changing – sometimes catastrophically – but generally predictable within bounds of uncertainty that statisticians can estimate.  At the very least, this requires that the scientific community acts on the wise counsel of Rhodes W Fairbridge and presents governments with advice that has regard to the entire field of planetary-lunar-solar dynamics, including gravitational dynamics.

This field has to be understood so that the dynamics of terrestrial climate can be understood.

References:

North, D. C., 2005. Understanding the Process of Economic Change

Princeton University Press.

Fagan, B., 2004.  The Long Summer.  How Climate Changed Civilization.

Basic Books.”

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JimB
November 29, 2008 6:49 am

“It means that Gore is advocating the abandonment of the IPCC doctrine and barracking for the study and understanding of climate dynamics that ignores totally the IPCC/AWG doctrine and focuses on all the other variables, especially how climate dynamics are driven by atmospheric/oceanic oscillations, the natural internal dynamics of the climate system and the role of the Sun in climate dynamics.”
I’m sorry, but I just don’t get this statement. Seems like a GIANT leap to say that Gore is advocating the abandonment of anything, least of all IPCC doctrine.
The book referenced in the blog is Collapse…here’s an excerpt from a review:
“While it might seem a stretch to use medieval Greenland and the Maya to convince a skeptic about the seriousness of global warming, it’s exactly this type of cross-referencing that makes Collapse so compelling. –Jennifer Buckendorff ”
Seems to me that the Gore blog entry is just adding more ammo from a different angle to the rest of the political garbage he spews.
It’s early, I haven’t had enough coffee…so what did I miss here?
JimB

kim
November 29, 2008 7:13 am

Well, I’ll try to help here JimB. The IPCC has concentrated, by mandate, on anthropogenic change to climate, and rather than study regional microclimate changes, which do occur, they’ve fastened on CO2 as the main agent of climate change. It is becoming obvious that they are wrong. The climatic events around the collapse of the Mayan civilization were pretty clearly not anthropogenic, instead were from natural cycles. So any lessons to be learned from the Mayans have to do with regional land use changes. Gore is just a complete fool. He’s the Gorebellied Fool.
==================================

Basil
Editor
November 29, 2008 7:18 am

JimB,
I’ve only had one cup of coffee, but I think I get it. The Mayan collapse is being attributed to climate change brought about entirely by natural climate variability. So we need to better understand the causes and dimensions of natural climate variability. This is an area of research that largely began to be ignored after the mid 1990’s, where it took a back seat to research focused on anthropogenic induced climate change.
Basil

JimB
November 29, 2008 7:33 am

Kim,
Thanks…I got that.
The link I don’t get is that somehow Gore is abandoning the IPCC. All the blog post said to me was Gore saying “See what happened to the Mayans when THEY ignored the impact of climate change???”
I guess what I’m saying is it seems to me the author is making a link that just isn’t there…much the same as Gore does with C02 ;*)
JimB

Rod Smith
November 29, 2008 7:40 am

I am not convinced that Gore either understands or cares about such events, nor expects the average person on the street to even read about them. Most will just repeat that “Al Gore says….”
I think he is just raising the drumbeat level of his “The sky is falling” bleat.

John F. Pittman
November 29, 2008 7:42 am

I tried to find the paper but coudn’t. IIRC, part of the collapse was assumed anthropogenic. During the large drought periods, they used irrigation. This culture http://www.anthrosource.net/doi/abs/10.1525/aa.2002.104.3.814 was a water monopoly civilization. There was a theory of salt intrusion “900 A.C., at which time the Maya collapse removed the market for its salt”. The theory was that due to extensive monocrop agriculture and irrigating with water that salt had been added, the Mayans worsened their annaul harvest each year. This is an old paper, when biologists were exploring monoculture crops and desert irrigation. I don’t know how well it stood the test of time.

John
November 29, 2008 7:47 am

One could say Al Gored his own horse.

November 29, 2008 7:52 am

As Douglass North showed, the main responsibility of governments in managing the impact of the potentially catastrophic events that arise in a non-ergodic world is to manage society’s response to them so as to enable the society to adapt as efficiently as possible to them. Amongst other things, this would mean being better able to anticipate and manage our response to climate change, to minimise suffering and maximise benefits and the efficiency of our adaptation to a climate that is ever-changing – sometimes catastrophically – but generally predictable within bounds of uncertainty that statisticians can estimate.
Nobody could [or should] disagree with the above. Unfortunately, it appears in the context of:
The thesis to which Rhodes Fairbridge devoted much of his life is that the sun, through its relationships with the solar system, is largely responsible for these changes and that we are now on the cusp of one of the major changes that feature in the planet’s history. […] At the very least, this requires that the scientific community acts on the wise counsel of Rhodes W Fairbridge and presents governments with advice that has regard to the entire field of planetary-lunar-solar dynamics, including gravitational dynamics. This field has to be understood so that the dynamics of terrestrial climate can be understood.
Linking these two statements is unfortunate because the problems with the second one would tend to diminish the importance of the first one. We have gone over the lack of scientific value of the planetary influence ‘theory’ already and need not repeat the nauseating arguments. This is a sad comment on the state of science literacy among a segment of the public, and carries its own alarmist overtone [“we are now on the cusp …”]., very sad, indeed.

Retired Engineer
November 29, 2008 8:14 am

If Mayan land use policies were destructive, then that could be considered anthropogenc. They didn’t change the climate, but they made themselves vulnerable to changes that took place.
If we embark on a massive cap and trade carbon sequestering effort, we may experience the same end result.
I wouldn’t call Gore a complete fool. He has a collected whole lot of money. The folks that follow him may be complete fools.

Billy Ruff'n
November 29, 2008 8:18 am

Perhaps Gore has begun to walk away from an argument he is realizing he can’t win. It reminds me of rats and sinking ships.

November 29, 2008 8:41 am

Jim B
“It means that Gore is advocating the abandonment ….”
…is not what Al Gore means, but it is what he says. His reference deals with known climate oscillations and that the government should prepare for them. Today that is: global cooling.
I suspect that Al doesn’t understand the difference.
(Moderator: I snipped my own ad hominem attacks on Al.)
Regards,
Steamboat Jack

Leon Brozyna
November 29, 2008 8:59 am

I think that what Gore is doing is drawing a parallel between our climate crisis and the Mayan demise due to their not reacting properly to their changing environment. He seems to be saying that if we do not seriously respond to our climate crisis, which he claims is driven by rising levels of CO2, we will suffer the same fate as that experienced by the Mayan.
I think he is using this study to reinforce his AGW message; he is not abandoning or changing his position.

November 29, 2008 9:01 am

kim (07:13:17) :
So any lessons to be learned from the Mayans have to do with regional land use changes.
And regional land use changes are clearly not due to planetary alignments, either.

Tim L
November 29, 2008 9:28 am

I have to say it again…. cocky arrogance !!!
did he say anything about the no sun spots? NO!
algore will be the reason that we collapse.
breathe deeply exhale and repeat……

November 29, 2008 9:38 am

Al Gore wrote a very good book in 1992 ‘ Earth in the balance’ in which he gathered together lots of evidence of previous civilisations collapsing through climate change or made numerous references to warmer periods than today. Like the UKS own Dr Iain Stewart he then chose to ignore his own proof that these things happen naturally, by making a leap towards saying that next time we could cause collapse through our excessive use of co2. It was a most curioius thing to do, rather like reading an Agatha Christie ‘whodunit’ that fingered the eventual murderer as someone who hadn’t even been mentioned in the book!
I respectfully suggest people take a long hard look at the work of Ernst Beck who has demonstrated that co2 levels pre Keeling rose and fell beween around 280 and 400ppm. Having checked out his work myself from a historic perspective, the ice core readings look increasingly dubious and the hypotheses that co2 has never been higher increasingly threadbare.
TonyB

JimB
November 29, 2008 10:05 am

“Leon Brozyna (08:59:52) :
I think that what Gore is doing is drawing a parallel between our climate crisis and the Mayan demise due to their not reacting properly to their changing environment. He seems to be saying that if we do not seriously respond to our climate crisis, which he claims is driven by rising levels of CO2, we will suffer the same fate as that experienced by the Mayan.
I think he is using this study to reinforce his AGW message; he is not abandoning or changing his position”
This is exactly the point I was attempting to make.
The author of the article claims that the blog post signifies a radical departure in Gore’s support of the IPCC. Nothing in the blog post says that.
The blog post amounts to nothing more than Good Ol’ Al saying “And see what happened to THEM when THEY didn’t pay attention to climate??? SEE???”
JimB

Pierre Gosselin
November 29, 2008 10:14 am

I agree with Leon.
Gore is saying we have to adapt to climate change by mitigation. He actiually (foolishly) believes we can act pre-emptively. Only by massively cutting CO2 can we avoid the doomsday like the Mayan Empire. What a joke!
Quite honestly, the Mayan collapse had nothing to do with climate change. It was most likely due to the Mayan’s inability to respond to climate change because of bad economics and political corruption. Their system was weighted down by government, and it no longer could function when faced with a challenge.

kim
November 29, 2008 10:14 am

Leif (09:01:12)
Oh, yes, I agree. I should have also said we might be able to learn political lessons from them.
And then……what about that Mayan Calendar? Kidding.
JimB. (07:33:10) I think the point is that this latest business about the Mayans is inconsistent with the IPCC idea that CO2=AGW, and he’s not bright enough to realize it. Either that or he does realize it but from past experience thinks the press and people are too stupid to catch him at his fool’s game. He is either a fool, or a cynic.
============================================

Pierre Gosselin
November 29, 2008 10:19 am

A well-governed society can adapt easily to any moderate Holocene-type climate change while corrupt, dysfunctional societies collapse…sometimes even by themselves without the help of nature. Look at the USA today! Or the Soviet empire.

November 29, 2008 10:19 am

Tim L (09:28:19) :
I have to say it again…. cocky arrogance !!!
did he say anything about the no sun spots? NO!

At least he got that right !

November 29, 2008 10:20 am

It`s interesting to note, too, that Cahokia and the Mississippian culture began declining around 1250 and collapsed completely shortly after 1400-in harmony with the end of the Medieval Warming Period and subsequent Little Ice Age.
What Gore is unwittingly doing is admitting defeat; the climate change was not caused by human activity but by natural cycles.

Douglas DC
November 29, 2008 10:21 am

There is a big difference with the Modern Civilization and the Maya. However,I am more worried about a collapse within-i.e. short-sighted policies that do not take into account external changes.Like the current low solar cycle la Nina,etc.That Gore may be,shall we say, projecting his feelings here.He may realize that the Jig is up,and not know how he really feels 🙂

evanjones
Editor
November 29, 2008 10:22 am

On the one hand there is a whole pigpile out there who have terrible things to say about Beck.
But OTOH the dang proxies seem to show no increase whatever in CO2 levels during WWII, a period in which every fossil fuel a.) was fanatically acquired, and, b.) went up in smoke, and then some, plus around a hundred cities for good measure.
So regardless of the validity or non-validity of Beck, I must also cast a jaundiced (soot-caked) eye at the proxies. I also wonder just how “raw” those proxies are. If one can adjust an NOAA asphalt-horror surface station warmer, what can one not do to an innocent Antarctic ice core?

Pierre Gosselin
November 29, 2008 10:23 am

TonyB
“…evidence of previous civilisations collapsing through climate change…”
Rubbish!
Rubbish!
Rubbish!
Societies collapse because of corrupt dysfunctional governments. Let’s not make for excuses for incompetent leaders and government.
“Ohhhh…it’s the climate’s fault!!”
Screw that!

Pierre Gosselin
November 29, 2008 10:26 am

Societies have been able to thrive during climate change even with the simplest of technology. Societies fail because of mismanagement.
Now get that in your heads!

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