Detailed Comments on An Inconvenient Truth

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Foreword by the blog moderator:

One of the things that often happens once your blog and effort is well known is that people start sending you things to look at and/or do. That’s the case here. There has been much discussion web-wide over AIT and potential inaccuracies in the presentation by Gore, but I have not taken on the subject here in any detail since I have my http://www.surfacestations.org/ USHCN weather station census requiring a good portion of my time. Nonetheless, when I was offered this review, it seemed to be quite comprehensive in scope, and done by a person who worked in aeronautic systems engineering, a very detail oriented job that combines many disciplines.  He had a thirty-three year career at Boeing, beginning as a software engineer in data reduction and flight simulation and retiring as the Chief Engineer of the Electronic Systems Division.

While AIT has been reviewed by many, I thought this review had some interesting points. Therefore, as a catalyst for discussion, here is Bob’s review of AIT with no editing nor commentary on my part.

UPDATE 10/5/07 A few commenters pointed out that there was a mistake that needed correcting. Mr. Edleman requested I repost his newly edited version that corrects a mistake in attribution of the institution Dr. Phil Jones is tenured at. Some additional format changes were made for readability by Mr. Edelman.

by Bob Edelman

October 3, 2007

My sister viewed Al Gore’s movie, An Inconvenient Truth, and was disturbed enough to ask my opinion. In her words, “if the story is mostly true, we’d better stop the ideological wrangling and get busy salvaging what we can”. After some prodding I reluctantly rented the DVD and prepared the following comments in response. My conclusion is that the movie is mostly misleading and, yes, we’d better stop the ideological wrangling and consider the facts.

Comments on An Inconvenient Truth

Most of my comments pertain to the climatology science presented in the movie although I do include a discussion of charges made by NASA’s James Hansen that his scientific findings have been suppressed. I also discuss the issue of scientific consensus. I gave a pass to most of the trivial errors although I couldn’t help pointing out some that jumped out at me. Please forgive the nit-picking. A few words about the general circulation models (GCMs) used to predict climate change. Al Gore didn’t explicitly discuss the models that he used or the accuracy of his predictions so I don’t discuss them in my comments. Yet whenever he discusses future climate he necessarily is either guessing or relying on someone’s GCM. Given that no model has ever been validated I believe that the state-of-the-art still has a long way to go before climatologists can make predictions good enough to drive policy. One glaring hole in climate models is adequate modeling of precipitation systems. They are not modeled well because they are not understood. Yet precipitation systems are extremely important to moderating climate. A recently published study of tropical precipitation systems by Dr. Roy Spencer supports the existence of a strong negative feedback to temperature increases rather then the assumed positive feedback now modeled in GCMs. Once such systems are understood and modeled properly we may find why the earth’s climate is not as fragile as some would have us believe. After all, the earth once had an atmosphere consisting of mostly greenhouse gasses (carbon dioxide, methane and water vapor) and nitrogen, yet life and the climate evolved. The following comments are organized in the same chronology as the film. I suggest that you view An Inconvenient Truth on DVD and follow along since it is difficult to insert Gore’s slides into my comments. The most significant comments are in bold.

1.      The story about his sixth grade teacher may or may not be true – she may have been reflecting her own sixth grade education. The point of his story, however, was fabricated. He ends the story by saying that “the teacher was actually reflecting the conclusion of the scientific establishment at that time: Continents are so big that obviously they don’t move.” When Gore was in the sixth grade (about 1960) the scientific community had generally accepted the concept of continental drift.

2.      Gore’s explanation of the greenhouse effect is grossly over-simplified. The sun’s radiation reaches the earth in a broad spectrum, not just “light”. The warm earth emits long infrared radiation. Some of that radiation is absorbed by greenhouse gasses, the most significant of which is water vapor followed by CO2. The energy is re-radiated at wave lengths that differ from the excitation radiation. Most of the re-radiated energy is lost to space but some reaches the earth where it contributes to keeping the atmosphere at a comfortable temperature. The radiation is not “trapped”.

3.      In his explanation of the greenhouse effect he incorrectly equates it to global warming. This helps create the perception that people who disagree with his conclusions deny the existence of global warming and/or the greenhouse effect. Actually, there is general agreement on the following:

  • There is a greenhouse effect. It makes our planet livable.
  • CO2 is a greenhouse gas. There is disagreement as to its significance since water vapor is, by far, the most important.
  • There was global warming on the order of about 1ºF during the twentieth century. There is disagreement as to its cause.

4.      The assertion that his professor, Roger Revelle, was the first person to have the idea to measure the amount of CO2 in the earth’s atmosphere is false. Scientists have been measuring atmospheric CO2 since well before Revelle was born and the measurements showing increased concentrations were reported 20 years before Revelle’s study. Also, Gore implies that Revelle was concerned about the global warming effects of increased CO2 emissions. He wasn’t. In fact, Revelle is on record saying that increased CO2 could be beneficial and that it is too early (in 1991) for drastic action to prevent global warming effects.

5.      The assertion that the ice cap on Mount Kilimanjaro is disappearing because of global warming is not correct. It is generally accepted that the cause is desiccation of the atmosphere that resulted from deforestation. The temperature at the ice cap has remained at about minus 7ºC, indicating that ice cap loss has been from ablation (sublimation) to the dry atmosphere, not melting.

6.      The use of Glacier National Park as an example of man-caused (anthropogenic) global warming is wrong. Those glaciers have been receding since the beginning of record keeping. In fact, the rate of retreat was greater 75 years ago then now.

7.      The idea that the world’s glaciers are disappearing because of CO2 stretches credibility. Remember, the 20th century increase in temperature has been about 1ºF, much of which occurred before the era of large CO2 emissions. Most glaciers in temperate climates are relics of the ice age and have been receding since that time. Nevertheless, a large number of glaciers are growing, none of which were shown in the film, and only a small percentage of glaciers have been studied for mass balance changes out of the 67,000 that have been inventoried. (Note: the rate of recession and the rate of mass loss are two different things.)

8.      Gore shows a glacier calving to illustrate the horrors of global warming. “Here is what has been happening year by year to the Columbia Glacier. It just retreats more and more every year. And it is a shame because these glaciers are so beautiful. People who go up to see them, here is what they are seeing every day now.” Gore doesn’t seem to recognize that glacier ice slowly flows down-hill and calving is quite normal. A growing ice-cap will also calve.

9.      The assertion that people in the Himalayas will lose their drinking water because of glacier melting in the next 40 years may be true, but not because of anthropogenic global warming. The Gangotri glacier has been receding as have most relics of the ice age. However, it is incorrect to blame it on recent global warming. Melting occurs in the summer and temperature records since 1875 show a history of decreasing summer temperatures. This illustrates the major problem with using glaciers to prove catastrophic anthropogenic global warming.

10.  Gore attributes the retreat of a Peruvian glacier to global warming without mentioning the fact that the region has been cooling since the 1930’s. He also fails to mention the other South America glaciers that have been growing.

11.  Gore makes these comments when showing a video of an ice-core sample: “When I was in Antarctica I saw cores like this and the guy looked at it. He said right here is where the US Congress passed the Clean Air Act. I couldn’t believe it but you can see the difference with the naked eye. Just a couple of years after that law was passed, it’s very clearly distinguishable.” I will give Gore the benefit of the doubt and say that he was the victim of a joke.

12.  Gore incorrectly shows the infamous “hockey stick” chart as temperature history from ice-core data. This was actually from a study published by Dr. Michael Mann in 1999. He used tree ring data as a proxy for temperature for data up to the 20th century and then tacked on thermometer data. The graph shows a slow decline in global temperature for 1,000 years (the shaft of the hockey stick) and then a sudden increase in the 20th century (the blade of the hockey stick).  The study was quickly accepted by global warming alarmists without adequate review because it wiped out the pesky Medieval Warm Period (MWP) and the Little Ice Age. Some scientists raised a number of questions about the lack of agreement with previous studies and the historical record. Two Canadians, McIntyre and McKitrick, attempted to examine the methodology and, after much difficulty in acquiring data and software algorithms, were able to show gross errors in the use of statistical techniques. This controversy culminated in two studies requested by congress. The first was by the National Research Council (at the NRC’s suggestion) which gave some credence to Mann’s study although limiting it to 400 years. No statisticians were on the committee and, it turns out, most of the committee had professional connections to Dr Mann. A second independent study by a team of mathematicians was requested and headed by Dr. Edward J. Wegman. The Wegman study thoroughly discredited the Mann study because of invalid use of statistical techniques and found that the conclusions by Mann could not be supported. However, some still cling to the hockey stick. Gore is apparently one of them.

13.  Gore uses the discredited hockey stick to downplay the MWP and deride scientists who have shown the importance of climate change cycles. There have been numerous studies before and after the Mann study that show, through other proxies, the global extent of and magnitude of the MWP. There is ample evidence that the planet was warmer during the MWP then it is now. There are also numerous studies that show the existence of various cycles, such as the earth’s orbital cycles, and how those cycles can affect major climate changes.

14.  When Gore does display the ice-core data he incorrectly uses it to assert that CO2 is directly responsible for global temperature change. This is the most egregious error in the movie.

Now an important point: In all of this time, 650,000 years, the CO2 level has never gone above 300 parts per million. Now, as I said, they can also measure temperature. Here is what the temperature has been on our earth. One thing that kind of jumps out at you is… Let me put it this way. If my class mate from the sixth grade that talked about Africa and South America might have said, “Did they ever fit together?” Most ridiculous thing I ever heard. But they did of course. The relationship is very complicated. But there is one relationship that is more powerful than all the others and it is this. When there is more carbon dioxide, the temperature gets warmer, because it traps more heat from the sun inside.

All technical studies of ice-cores show the same thing; CO2 increases follow temperature increases and CO2 decreases follow temperature decreases. In other words, ice-core data show that temperature changes drive CO2 changes to a very large extent. The actual amount of the lag varies from different studies but it is approximately 800 years. The reason for the lag is postulated to be the delayed release and absorption of CO2 from the oceans, the earth’s largest reservoir of carbon. The reason for the large delay is the huge depth of the oceans and the time that it takes a temperature change to propagate. Gore and his technical advisors are certainly well aware of these facts.

15.  The ice-core graph along with estimates of CO2 growth is used to give the impression that the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere is greater than ever before in history and that it is going “off the chart”. In truth, CO2 concentrations have been much higher in geologic history. During the Cambrian Period (543 to 490 million years ago), concentrations were as high as 18 times the present level. It was during this period that there was an explosion of diverse life on earth (called the Cambrian explosion) and almost all living animal groups appeared. At the end of the Ordovician Period (490 to 443 million years ago) the earth experienced an Ice Age, yet CO2 concentrations were almost 12 times the present level. CO2 concentrations were almost 5 times higher during the Jurassic Period (206 to 144 million years ago), yet life thrived. These facts are at odds with the assertion a doubling of CO2 in the atmosphere will be catastrophic to life.

16.  Gore’s claim that there is no controversy over the amount of CO2 growth in the next 50 years is wrong.

17.  Gore shows a chart purporting to be actual temperatures since the Civil War. (Note that the film doesn’t expose the dependent axis. If he did it would emphasize how small the changes in temperature were.) Gore states:

These are actual measurements of atmospheric temperature since our civil war. In any given year it might look like it’s going down, but the overall trend is extremely clear. In recent years it is uninterrupted and it is intensifying. In fact, if you look at the 10 hottest years ever measured in this atmospheric record, they have all occurred in the last 14 years. The hottest of all was 2005.

He can be forgiven for having been misled by a close advisor, Dr. James Hansen who heads the Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS). Hansen has recently been forced to admit that errors were made in correcting raw data and that the hottest year was 1934. Here is the new ranking: 1934, 1998, 1921, 2006, 1931, 1999, 1953, 1990, 1938, 1939.

This change in ranking came about because of the efforts of non-professionals. GISS derives temperature from a large network of stations in the United States. They have been severely criticized for using stations that are poorly placed so that significant error is introduced by artificially induced local heating and urbanization. GISS filters the data to extract very low temperature change signals from the very large temperature noise. A former TV meteorologist, Anthony Watts, voluntarily maintains a web site where individuals have been recruited to examine stations in a systematic manner and post photographs and station characteristics. To date, records for about 33% of the stations in the US Historical Climatology Network have been surveyed. There are numerous examples of poor placement such as near heat exchangers, on or near concrete, exposure to jet airplane exhaust, and even exposure to a burn barrel. The record of one station located near two air conditioner exhausts showed a sudden increase in temperature readings when the air conditioners were installed. It was noted, however, that the discontinuity continued in the winter when the air conditioners were presumed to be off. This got the attention of Steven McIntyre, the same Canadian who discovered the hockey stick math problems. He attempted to get the data reduction algorithms from Hansen but was refused access. (Refusing review of one’s work is not how responsible scientists behave.) McIntyre was forced to reverse engineer data from a number of stations and found a “Y2K” problem, i.e., discrepancies were introduced in the year 2000. Hansen has now admitted that he made errors when transitioning to a different data set but still refuses to divulge his methods. (I have more to say about Hansen later.)

18.  The connection of heat waves to global warming is grossly exaggerated. Remember, the 20th century increase in temperature has been about 1ºF.

19.  Gore claims that the oceans have warmed (by about .2 degrees according to his chart). Harison and Carson of the University of Washington studied 50 years of data from 1950 to 2000 and concluded that there was no warming evident. (Their data actually show cooling from 1980 to 1999.) They concluded that “The ocean neither cooled nor warmed systematically over the large parts of the ocean for the entire analysis period.”

20.  Gore claims that increased hurricane activity is caused by global warming. This claim is not supported by empirical studies. In fact, a recent study of tropical cyclones in Australia from 1226 to 2003 showed a decrease in the frequency and intensity of hurricanes in the last 100 years. (It is interesting how the researchers got records that old. They found that a heavy isotope of oxygen, O-18, is deficient in precipitation from cyclones. They measured the deficiency of O-18 deposited in stalagmite layers as a proxy for cyclone intensity and then validated their method against records of modern cyclones.)

21.  The claim that Lake Chad drying is caused by global warming is not correct. NASA concluded that water use and grazing are the probable causes.

22.  Gore shows a dramatic photo of a crack in the Ward Hunt Ice Shelf to illustrate “faster impacts from global warming” in the Artic and says that “scientists were astonished”. Some may have been surprised but scientists who have studied the ice shelf point out that it is a remnant of a larger feature that has been contracting since the end of the Little Ice Age and had already lost 90% during the period 1906-1982 due to calving.

23.  Gore shows a photo of a house that was built on permafrost and sunk when the permafrost melted. Solution: Don’t build a house on permafrost unless you plan to keep the living areas below freezing. (Alaskans figured this one out a long time ago.)

24.  A chart that purports to show that “there was a precipitous drop off in the amount and extent and thickness of the arctic ice cap” starting in 1970 is questionable. It has been reported that the data points were not all taken at the same time of the year. Also, 1970 was the end of a 25 year cooling period. Dr. Dick Morgan, a climatology researcher at the University of Exeter wrote: “There has been some decrease in ice thickness in the Canadian Arctic over the past 30 years but no melt down. The Canadian Ice Service records show that from 1971-1981 there was average, to above average, ice thickness. From 1981-1982 there was a sharp decrease of 15% but there was a quick recovery to average, to slightly above average, values from 1983-1995. A sharp drop of 30% occurred again 1996-1998 and since then there has been a steady increase to reach near normal conditions since 2001.”

25.  The animation of the desperate polar bear is representative of nothing. Polar bear population is increasing or stable in all areas except where there has been cooling! As a species they have survived much warmer temperatures seen 6000 years ago.

26.  Gore does a good job of describing the thermohaline pump and how the pump was shut down when a huge lake of fresh water was suddenly dumped into the ocean at the end of the ice age. However, he seems to imply that slow melting of the icecap will produce the same effect. This is not correct and no scientist worth his halide would make that claim.

27.  The claims that global warming is causing “exotic” species to appear where they were never seen before and outbreaks of disease have little or no basis. For example:

  • You’ve heard of the pine beetle problem? Those pine beetles used to be killed by the cold winter, but there are fewer days of frost. So the pine trees are being devastated.” Actually the pine beetle is native to areas where large outbreaks occurred. Small outbreaks became large because of forest management problems.
  • There are cities that were founded because they were just above the mosquito line. Nairobi is one. Harare is another. There are plenty of others. Now the mosquitoes with warming are climbing to hirer altitudes.” This is nonsense. These cities have always had mosquitoes and malaria. Malaria was a world-wide disease, including the United States at one time.
  • The Avian flu, of course is quite a serious matter, as you know. West Nile Virus came to the eastern shore of Maryland in 1999. Two years later it was across the Mississippi. And two years after that it had spread across the continent.” More nonsense. Avian flu (or any other kind) is not associated with higher temperatures. West Nile Virus is a mosquito-borne virus that came from Israel. According to the CDC, the virus was never confined to tropical areas. The fact that these diseases spread to temperate areas contradicts Gore’s claim that they spread because of global warming.

28.  Gore’s discussion of the Antarctic focuses on the dramatic break up of the Larsen B ice-shelf in Western Antarctica. Andrew Monaghan of Ohio State University’s Byrd Polar Research Center and 15 colleagues have been studying the thickness of the ice cap. They point to evidence that the West Antarctic Ice Sheet has been thinning over the past decade, while the East Antarctic Ice Sheet has thickened. A lot of work needs to be done to explain just what is happening in the Antarctic and concentrating on one single event can give a very distorted picture.

29.  Gore makes another absurd claim that Pacific islanders were forced to evacuate to New Zealand when part of the Antarctic ice shelf broke off. Dr Chris de Freitas, a climate scientist from the University of Auckland stated: “I can assure Mr. Gore that no one from the South Pacific islands has fled to New Zealand because of rising seas. In fact, if Gore consults the data, he will see it shows sea level falling in some parts of the Pacific.”

30.  Gore postulates a 20 foot rise in sea level if the Greenland ice cap or the Antarctic ice cap melted. He then shows the devastation that would occur from such a chance in sea level. No reputable scientist is predicting such a huge magnitude rise in sea level. Even the global warming alarmists on the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) have projected a range of only 18-59cm at the end of this century based on various models and scenarios.

31.  The map showing that the US contributed 30% to global warming is actually a map produced by the World Resource Institute that purports to show CO2 emissions resulting from fossil fuel combustion. Global warming and fossil fuel consumption are not the same thing. Nor are global warming and CO2 emissions the same thing. Even if they were the map doesn’t show other sources of CO2 such as the 30% that Gore claims comes from burning wood.

32.  Gore says:

There was a massive study of every scientific article in a peer reviewed article written on global warming in the last ten years. They took a big sample of 10 percent, 928 articles. And you know the number of those that disagreed with the scientific consensus that we’re causing global warming and that is a serious problem out of the 928: Zero.

Anyone familiar with the scientific literature knows better. The study that he is referring to was conducted by social scientist Dr. Naomi Oreske. Another social scientist, Dr. Benny Peiser of the UK, attempted to verify Oreske’s study. The following is his summary:

“I replicated her study in order to assess the accuracy of its results. All abstracts listed on the ISI databank for 1993 to 2003 using the same keywords (‘global climate change’) were assessed. The results of my analysis contradict Oreskes’ findings and essentially falsify her study: Of all 1117 abstracts, only 13 (1%) explicitly endorse the ‘consensus view’. However, 34 abstracts reject or question the view that human activities are the main driving force of ‘the observed warming over the last 50 years’.

Oreskes claims that ‘none of these papers argued [that current climate change is natural]’. However, 44 papers emphasise that natural factors play a major if not the key role in recent climate change.

The most significant discrepancy with Oreskes’ results concern abstracts that are undecided whether human activities are the dominant driving force of recent warming. My analysis shows that a significant number of abstracts reject what Oreskes calls the ‘consensus view’. In fact, there are almost three times as many abstracts that are unconvinced of the notion of anthropogenic climate change than those that explicitly endorse it.”

Two German environmental scientist, Dennis Bray and Hans von Storch, conducted an extensive survey of 530 climate scientists from 27 different countries in 2003. (A similar survey was conducted in 1996.) On the critical assertion, “human activity is causing climate change” only 55.8% agreed, 30% disagreed, and the rest were uncertain. This is hardly unanimous agreement.

In a recent analysis of peer-reviewed studies, Dennis Avery and Fred Singer listed more than 500 climate scientists whose studies confirmed that climate change is a natural phenomenon.

There is no consensus. Even if there were it would have no value in science. Proof leads to consensus, not the other way around.

33.  Gore claims: “The misconception that there is disagreement about the science has been deliberately created by a relatively small number of people. One of their internal memos leaked and here is what it said according to the press. Their objective is to reposition global warming as a theory rather than fact.” I know of no efforts to “reposition global warming as a theory”. All reputable scientists recognize that there has been warming since the little ice age. However, “anthropogenic global warming leading to disastrous results” is properly positioned as theory.

34.  The movie shows testimony before the Senate from 1989 where James Hanson reveals that the final paragraph in his testimony was written by OMB during its review. The movie leaves the impression that scientific findings were changed. What actually happened is this: OMB added a sentence that Hansen’s conclusions “should be viewed as estimates from evolving computer models and not as reliable predictions.” Hansen phoned Gore and requested that he ask about the changes during the hearing. As it turns out, Hansen’s predictions were not reliable and his faith in them was not scientifically based.

Hansen openly admits to ignoring NASA media policies and frequently has made accusations of political interference since 1988. Recently, the Washington Post reported:

“The debate has been intensifying because Earth is warming much faster than some researchers had predicted. James E. Hansen, who directs NASA’s Goddard Institute of Space Studies, last week confirmed that 2005 was the warmest year on record, surpassing 1998. Earth’s average temperature has risen nearly 1 degree Fahrenheit over the past 30 years, he noted, and another increase of about 4 degrees over the next century would ‘imply changes that constitute practically a different planet.’

‘It’s not something you can adapt to,’ Hansen said in an interview. ‘We can’t let it go on another 10 years like this. We’ve got to do something.’

This tipping point debate has stirred controversy within the administration; Hansen said senior political appointees are trying to block him from sharing his views publicly.

When Hansen posted data on the Internet in the fall suggesting that 2005 could be the warmest year on record, NASA officials ordered Hansen to withdraw the information because he had not had it screened by the administration in advance, according to a Goddard scientist who spoke on the condition of anonymity. More recently, NASA officials tried to discourage a reporter from interviewing Hansen for this article and later insisted he could speak on the record only if an agency spokeswoman listened in on the conversation.

‘They’re trying to control what’s getting out to the public,’ Hansen said, adding that many of his colleagues are afraid to talk about the issue. ‘They’re not willing to say much, because they’ve been pressured and they’re afraid they’ll get into trouble.'”

Again, Hansen turned out to be wrong and has had to revise his data. (See previous discussion about hottest years.) He now downplays its importance and blatantly lies about past practices. The following is from a recent article in the New York Times:

“Dr. Hansen and his team note that they rarely, if ever, discuss individual years, particularly regional findings like those for the United States (the lower 48 are only 2 percent of the planet’s surface). ‘In general I think that we want to avoid going into more and more detail about ranking of individual years,’ he said in an e-mail message. ‘As far as I remember, we have always discouraged that as being somewhat nonsensical.'”

Hansen has made a number of other incorrect predictions but he continues to hype the dangers of anthropogenic global warming. If past and present administrations have been attempting to suppress Hansen they have been spectacularly ineffective. Google his name and you will see what I mean.

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Stan Needham
October 6, 2007 2:24 pm

Jerry,
Excellent points. China and India are the twin elephants in the room that the alarmists don’t even like to think about, much less talk about.

October 6, 2007 2:40 pm

Edelmen’s critique was as elegantly rational as Luxemburg’s army is overwhelmingly powerful. Good grief — the guy comes up with localized explanations for one glacial retreat after another, and people here seem overjoyed to have almost transparent lies thrown in their face like that! Does being enmeshed in misinformation about global warming really provide -that- much more satisfaction than the pride that comes from thinking for yourselves? Is this bunch really so pliable and gullible as to believe the hundreds of places around the world where glaciers are vanishing should each be written off by focus on one or another localized causes, rather than considering the prospect there may be a global cause behind this global effect?
Perhaps Jerry gets the prize for greatest foolishness on display in the discussion so far. Except for some German radicals in the late 80s, I don’t think any serious political voices have called for zero growth or much in the way of nationalization to combat greenhouse gas emissions. Anti-growth politics are a false alarm raised again and again by people who want you to be afraid and/or hateful as an alternative to being -thoughtful-. That said, what is so precious about these generously subsidized profiteering oil and coil companies in business today? For all the noise conservatives make about welfare, when it comes to setting an agenda that will spend spend spend on corporate welfare for private entities that are already enormously profitable, contemporary American conservatives seem to always know just who to elect.
Still, my point about foolishness was simple. Neither Gore nor myself nor anyone else in any way involved with this discussion has advocated crippling growth. To the contrary, moving from filthy approaches to generating energy (as the fossil fuel industry also creates all manner of toxic waste, adds carcinogens to the daily American experience, etc.) to newer cleaner approaches could very well spur economic growth. It may be a legitimate open question, but surely resistance to innovation is not good service to capitalism. Cries of zero growth politics are fearmongering manage to trick so many into staunchly resisting any shift away from today’s most antiquated energy production techniques, full of hidden costs that degrade the quality of American life.
If you worship at the feet of coal and oil tycoons, I’m sure it seems noble to oppose any sort of environmental protection initiative. If you respect the nation as a whole, rather than only its most selfish and shortsighted plutocrats, there is no excuse for being as unpatriotic as one must be to put those special interests above the general interest of promoting a better quality of life for the young citizens who will inherit our nation.

Bill H
October 6, 2007 3:23 pm

Bob Edelman,

“because it wiped out the pesky Medieval Warm Period (MWP) and the Little Ice Age “

is different from:

” led to minimizing the Medieval Warm Period so that today’s temperatures appear greater instead of less then those of that period. The Little Ice Age anomalies are also minimized.”

Perhaps you should rewrite point #12

John Murphy
October 6, 2007 3:32 pm

“Demonweed”, isn’t that “POT”?
I should have guessed it.
A “POT” HEAD vrs. Bob Edelman.
Bob Edelman has been a very “dear friend” of mine for over twenty+ years.
In your “War of Wits” with him, you will soon find out that you will become “Defenseless” in refutting his “facts”.
Mark my word!!!

October 6, 2007 3:34 pm

I thought I was specific. Mr. Edelmen gives readers a long list of off-the-cuff explanations as to why this glacier and that glacier and the other one are all melting, and each pinpoints some sort of local phenomenon. It is as if his intent was not merely to obfuscate the role of industrial emissions in global warming, but also to convince readers that there hasn’t actually been any global uptick in temperatures!
He writes of glaciers as ice age relics that have always been shrinking, when in fact for thousands of years there has been relative balance in the expansion and contraction of these entities. Only in recent decades have normal cycles of melting and thawing given way to an unmistakable trend of rapid thawing that goes beyond loss of relatively fresh ice and into the widespread melting of ancient ice. To suggest the rapid melting trend of recent decades is some sort of inevitable extension of a melting trend from the past falsely asserts that trends during the 18th and 19th centuries were similarly biased toward melting. With an overwhelming majority of contemporary glaciers shrinking at a rate -unprecedented- at any point in human history, clearly something about global climate systems is different from their behavior during the past several thousand years.
To put it another way, it is as if 90% of the homes in a neighborhood were suddenly afflicted with rats, and one person’s evaluation is to go home by home with lines like, “well, you left that cake on the counter last night, didn’t you?” and “of course you’re going to get rats with the kind of music you play.” Some of his explanations don’t even make sense, and the ones that do are still designed to get readers to miss the point. If you’re inclined to buy those many varied localized explanations, it would seem that inclinations related to politics trump inclinations related to science. The kind of radical coincidence it would take for all these glaciers to melt away as a result of completely independent local influences at precisely the same time is the sort of coincidence no scientific thinker would accept at face value.
Yet there seem to be very few people here who are at all capable of expressing skepticism when it comes to absurd assertions that so clearly demand a skeptical response. It is nothing more than hostility toward Al Gore that is shaping many of these views on climate. That behavior is stupid. I cannot say if the men who display that behavior are generally stupid. To do so would be an ad hominem. However, to say that swallowing this stuff hook, line, and sinker like that is stupid is to critique -behavior- . . . and decidedly thoughtless irresponsible uncivic-minded behavior at that.

Bob Edelman
October 6, 2007 4:19 pm

Bill H,
Sorry, I missed your point. I could have been more specific. The methodology minimizes both the MWP and the Little Ice Age to the extent that they are almost indiscernible and turns them into non-events. As I recall, Gore points these out in the movie and makes light of their importance since they appear to be insignificant.

Bob Edelman
October 6, 2007 5:10 pm

Demonweed,
There was a rapid retreat of mountain glaciers between 1860 and 1940, probably because of the rapid increase in temperatures after the Little Ice Age. (If you dispute the existence of the Little Ice Age then you must ignore all of the real historical evidence.) After 1940 some glaciers retreated and some advanced. I know of no analysis of actual data that proves that CO2 emissions cause glaciers to recede. Speculation and un-validated models don’t count.

wes george
October 6, 2007 5:30 pm

So now Demonweed has devolved quickly to the last refuge and become a patriot. Citizens who are not true believers in catastrophic AGW are unpatriotic pawns of coal and oil tycoons. Are there any oil or coal tycoons still alive? More of that Leftist nostalgia for the old class warfare days, eh?
I don’t doubt that Demon thinks the whole lot of us should be round up, made to sign confessions and trucked off to re-education gulags where we are forced to watch AIT over and over again while memorizing Hansen dialectics.
He claims no one is calling for a zero growth economy; perhaps Demonweed lives in a cave. Any good environmentalist knows since the first Club of Rome’s report on the Limits of Growth that an ever expanding global economy is unsustainable at best and apocalyptic at worse. OK, so the Club, Paul Ehrlich, Dakota Jones and other neo-Malthusian prophets of doom were a bit premature, they are all still heroes today, no matter how wrong, wrong, wrong they were.
Simply to meet the Kyoto Protocol’s targets for most economies would mean zero growth or bloody well close to it and the Demon weeds of the world know well that Kyoto’s targets are not nearly deep enough to Save The Planet from Total Destruction.
Who is scare mongering? Al Gore predicts the destruction of all the world’s great costal cities, global plagues of biblical proportions, drought, super-cyclonic weather, mass extinction, Sudan-like temperatures in Europe and even possible ice ages and the end of civilization as we know it.
The apocalypse is at hand according to Hansen, Mann and Al Gore, yet their proof resembles an evangelical hell and brimstone sermon.
And those of us who prefer our taxes were spent first on more real science performed transparently and reproducibly before joining the hundred trillion dollar lemming rush to nowhere are unpatriotic pawns. Uh-huh.

October 6, 2007 5:53 pm

First to address wattsupwith that, I never denied that deforestation could be one of the factors involved in Kilimanjaro’s deglaciation. However, it is also known that tropical rain belts shifted away from the area due to unexpected regional warming in the 1980s. Now that more data is available and climate modeling is a less speculative endeavor, hindsight reveals that this phenomenon, also responsible for the well-known Ethiopian famine of that time, was driven by global warming. In theory, most regional climates will be at risk of meaningful changes as circulatory patterns adjust to the increased energy retained by the atmosphere. It seems like that ought to be cause for concern amongst a people blessed with the world’s most productive breadbasket.
In any case, the migration of tropical rain belts is not at all a theory, and it is a huge part of the problem at Kilimanjaro. Decreased cloud cover means more direct exposure of the peaks to sunlight. Decreased precipitation means less seasonal snowfall to replenish the remaining glaciers. Again, as I was quite clear about in my original comments, I do not dispute that local deforestation may have a role to play in this particular case. However, I’d like to think everyone here was smart enough to understand that some things are caused by more than one factor. wattsupwiththat presents us with a false dichotomy, and it seems hard to believe he really cannot go beyond binary “this or that” thinking on what causes the retreat of those particular glaciers.
Speaking to the broader matter, I avoided Little Ice Age discussion because that is a pretty unscientific term. There was a real cooling period, or rather a series of them, leading up to and even overlapping the dawn of industrial fossil fuel consumption. However, the term has been used so inconsistently in literature that I felt it best not to handle such a slippery subject. Whatever interpretation of the phrase I should take would be at odds with other documented interpretations, so it is a no win scenario in criticism.
On the lighter side, I still do have room to work with this, based on the original piece’s text. On the one hand we have this bizarre assertion that glaciers have been on continuous retreat for thousands of years since the last global ice age. On the other hand we have this legitimate observation that glaciers tended to expand during cooling episodes that are much more recent than thousands of years ago. How could it be that ancient ice was always melting rapidly away when at the same time we have a concession that there are times much more recently when it was accmulating? If you just poke at this stuff with the kind of minimal skepticism you should retain even for the words of close friends, it still falls apart under its own contradiction.
Now, at no point have I stated that CO2 directly causes glaciers to recede. However, it does cause indirect recession by means of promoting warmer temperatures. The Kilimanjaro case is so dramatic because there many factors are in play. I don’t even know for certain that particular region is in line with the global temperature trend (i.e. warming) but I do know about the shift of the seasonal rain to a new pattern and I do not dispute the deforestation point because I would not be surprised if that was also a contributor.
On the other hand, plenty of vanishing glaciers exist in places where precipitation patterns have not undergone a dramatic shift, and plenty of them exist in places where regional forests remain healthy. Conservatives are right to take pride in American forestry policy as an effective balance between economic needs and nature conservation . . . but this only means that deforestation cannot possibly be to blame for the fact that glaciers all over the Rocky Mountains lost the ice accumulated in recent cooling episodes years ago. Presently they pour off water from ice formed thousands of years ago, as do thousands upon thousands of other glaciers around the world. How many simultaneously balding mountains must be dismissed as the result of some local climate quirk before people will stop falling for the fossil fuel smoke screen and start facing the fact that this is a global phenomenon?
Now, people desperate to remain faithful to some political orthodoxy may grasp at any straw. It must be the Sun’s fault, right? Look, some scientists quibble about trivial distinctions in their models, so the general consensus must be false, right? Besides which, everybody knows that “general consensus” cannot possibly be anything other than a Vast Left Wing Conspiracy. After all, I just saw last night how somebody wrote a book that it was a con on the American public . . . and if its in a book then it must be true.
It is not as if there is no merit to any element of American conservative thinking. The problem is this bizarre love of inflexibility — an inability to concede error no matter how powerfully reality presents evidence at odds with a belief near and dear to the hearts of many. The movement and the nation would do well to pick battles based on what actually make sense and is good for the nation. Sticking to every gun, all the time, no matter how absurd, is just the opposite of good public service. Global warming denial has been a cottage industry for quite a while now. In the beginning it made a little sense, since much of the alarmism of the 70s and 80s was unsupported speculation. Now that support is present, and its chief obstacle is the peculiar blind spot that enables people to look at Gore’s slightly flawed treatment of the subject with great disdain while upholding this enormously flawed treatment of the subject as if it were sacrosanct scripture.
So I don’t actually fail to address the point, here is what I’m sure Mr. Edelman already knew I would say before asking. CO2 contributes to the greenhouse effect. The perpetual volcano of fossil fuel industries, producing emissions 24/7 around the world, has increased the presence of that gas by -at least- 25%. (I’ve heard numbers from 25%-50% over the years. The best estimate I have on hand is a 38% increase.) While that may be only a tiny nudge in terms of the overall greenhouse effect, it is also a critical nudge that unbalances formerly stable systems and promotes an overall warming trend. That warming trend, which is particularly manifest at extreme altitudes and latitudes, is causing glaciers to shrink at unnaturally rapid rates. Ignoring the canary in the coal mine doesn’t make anybody any safer, though I suppose if that willful denial persists it could delay the inevitable progress of humanity from old methods of generating energy to new methods of generating energy. This is good precisely how?

October 6, 2007 5:58 pm

As an aside to Wes George . . . who’s doing the fearmongering here? If you don’t think growth reduction is a sensible response to global warming, then advocate something that you do think is a sensible response. Clinging to a particular position on -scientific- issues because you have a particular -political- agenda is not at all constructive behavior. There are many ways to cope with these issues, and I favor innovation and progress over austerity and simply doing less of the same thing. Even if any American environmentalists actually were calling for an anti-growth strategy, those words alone would do nothing at all to change the realities of Earth’s atmosphere. What possible reason could anyone have for making this a debate about economic growth but that he or she wanted to stoke negative emotions as an alternative to focus on the facts?

Jeff
October 6, 2007 6:13 pm

He writes of glaciers as ice age relics that have always been shrinking, when in fact for thousands of years there has been relative balance in the expansion and contraction of these entities. Only in recent decades have normal cycles of melting and thawing given way to an unmistakable trend of rapid thawing that goes beyond loss of relatively fresh ice and into the widespread melting of ancient ice. To suggest the rapid melting trend of recent decades is some sort of inevitable extension of a melting trend from the past falsely asserts that trends during the 18th and 19th centuries were similarly biased toward melting.

Where’s the proof for this “balance”? Seattle isn’t under a mile-thick glacier any more. I hate to be the bringer of bad news, but yes, glaciers have been retreating since the last ice age, else we wouldn’t be here discussing it.

Jeff
October 6, 2007 6:22 pm

Here’s a fact for you. Human activity accounts for less than 3% of the annual CO2 entering the atmosphere. How would CO2 increase or decrease be affected if we stopped ALL human activity right now? That means taking your precious computer away so you can’t bitch at people who don’t believe everything they hear without significant proof. That DOES mean reducing humanity to hunter gatherers, whereby billions will die of starvation.
I’m all for alternate fuels and energy sources, but biofuels aren’t the answer. Taking space for growing food to produce fuel just isn’t smart, as we’re seeing all over the place right now. Unless there is proof that fossil fuels are destroying the planet, and there isn’t any proof, then we stick with it until a viable, safe alternative is developed. There’s no emergency. There ARE however other real problems which need to be dealt with, such as global disease (none of which is being exacerbated by the “global warming” chimera), famine, and poverty, all of which are best fought by development, not regression.

October 6, 2007 7:14 pm

Ummm, showing that glaciers have retreated since the last full blown ice age is hardly the same thing as showing that they have been in a state of continuous retreat ever since. There is little evidence of a general trend either way when comparing glaciers from 1900 to best estimates of their footprints from 900. The fact that a global glacial period ended is all the Seattle argument establishes. It tells us nothing at all about the intervening period, whereas the best available evidence at glacial sites suggests relative stability. At the very least, it is pretty obvious the incredibly rapid worldwide meltoff of recent decades is without precedent since the prehistoric meltoff that liberated temperate zones from their last full blown coverage by supersized polar caps. (Actually, I should hedge that, since glaciologists often speak of 3000 year old ice melting off. By inference I gather a few thousand years ago there may have been something similar to what is going on presently. Then again, perhaps they are just being conservative in their estimates to insulate themselves from the inevitable accusations of false alarmism.)
It is true that natural processes are constantly adding and removing atmospheric carbon. I’m not sure human endeavors are quite as minimal as Jeff suggests, but even +3% would add up fairly quickly. Imagine a bucket with a pinhole at one end and a slow stream of water pouring in from the other side. If input and output are balanced, the level remains constant indefinitely. Yet just a slight increase in input would eventually cause the bucket to overflow unless it were countered by at least as much an increase in output. What the fossil fuel industry adds to the carbon equation may not be much different from a few major volcanic events occurring each year, but it is a human addition with no counterpart in human subtraction. Even a 35:34 ratio, day after day, year after year, adds up to quite an accumulation. It is also a fact that CO2 is significantly more abundant in the air today than it has been at any other time since long before our ancestors walked on two legs. Is it really so hard to believe that burning billions of tons of sequestered carbon material is the cause?
In fairness, those intent on reducing emissions have no perfect solutions. Some technologies are progressing more quickly than others, but the best of what we have on hand forces the choice between nuclear (which is problematic in other ways) or energy conservation (which is not the same as cutting back on growth, and in fact promotes economic efficiency, but does not appear to be sufficient unto itself.) Still, it seems like pure folly to shrug and wait for most of the worlds greatest cities to start struggling to hold back the oceans before showing some initiative here.
That there may yet be time to minimize the impact is a silly reason to take no action at all. This is especially true when history gives (or perhaps gave and has since retracted) opportunities for America to display global leadership while promoting emissions control in places like China, India, and Russia. We forfeited a potential competitive advantage on the world stage simply to serve the interests of OPEC nations. Is the enrichment of Venezuelan and Saudi people really that much more important then encouraging clean energy in places where industrial growth is in the midst of dramatic boom times?
Also, I wanted to offer up an apology to Mr. Edelman. I reviewed my original comments, which were composed while in the midst of a major headache. That is no excuse, but I hope it offers a wee bit of mitigation. I got into blogging with the hope of reducing the role negative emotions play in distorting political judgment. I stand by my judgments on points of fact, but certainly not quips that were much less funny than mean. For those I am truly sorry.

Bob Edelman
October 6, 2007 7:27 pm

Demonweed,
You are concerned that we are approaching some “critical nudge” from CO2 that will unbalance stable systems and lead to catastrophe. You blame this impending doom on all the CO2 that mankind is returning to the atmosphere. Please review item 15 and explain why the earth experienced an ice age in the late Ordovician period when the CO2 concentration was 12 times higher than now. Or, if that was before your time, how about the Jurassic period when CO2 concentration was 5 times higher?
By the way, I’m still waiting for you to explain why ice core data show that changes in atmospheric CO2 lag temperature changes by about 800 years (item 14).

Vixt
October 6, 2007 7:29 pm

I stumbled across this site from another blog that linked to it and I read the review.
I think Mr. Edelman did a good job of sticking to facts without getting sidetracked.
I think Demonweed suffers from the same thing that drives many of his type, supreme arrogance.
If you click on his link with his name, it takes you to his own blog web page.
http://demonweed.wordpress.com/ and it is titled: “What You Should Think”.
No kidding.
Like so many liberals, I think he believes he has the moral and intellectual high ground like some sort of constitutional right, and he must tell us all “what to think” to save us from ourselves. That’s why he calls other commenters “sheep”.
So as Ross Perot used to say, “now, here’s the deal…”
You don’t have a moral or intellectual high ground, these guys are running circles around you but you can’t see it. You don’t even answer direct questions but deflect with rhetoric.
The amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is claimed to be the forcing agent behind a 1 degree F rise in the last century, yet people keep finding all sorts of problems with that 1 degree number. Many alternate explanations have been offered for forcing of climate, but the warmers insist it can’t possibly be anything but CO2. Now who’s got a “bizarre love of inflexibility”?
There’s a claim of 3 degrees centigrade of temperature rise for a doubling of CO2 in the atmosphere, yet there doesn’t seem to be a first principles research that proves this. It seems to come from a claim that James Hansen made in a paper back in the 1980’s, but where is the proof?
The people pushing the CO2 agenda, like Hansen and Gore, have a dog in the fight, monetarily, via continued grants, and politically, through social engineering. Hansen stopped being a physical scientist long ago, he’s mostly a political scientist now. And you trust them and the conclusions they reach?
The earth has been both warmer and colder before, we and other species survived just fine. We will again.
Humans have no control over earths processes, the solar system processes, or the processes of time and space we reside in. Our puny ability to make changes in the total energy balance of the earth is but a tiny fraction of the net energy balance.
If the atmospheric gas volume is equated to the height of the Empire State Building, the 380 parts per million that is CO2 would be about the height of the linoleum on the first floor.
You are a victim of political science, reality bites buddy.
But I’m sure you’ll tell us all “what to think” now, since by your own blog definition and comments here, we aren’t capable of thinking for ourselves.
Such arrogance.

M. Jeff
October 6, 2007 7:30 pm

Demonweed
Before declaring that all truth is known and that there is no longer a need for scientific research, perhaps consideration should be given to the idea that there are still a few areas where there is some uncertainty.
Any chance that the following widely reported and discussed research could possibly lead to other research which will in the future dramatically correct some of the deficiencies of climate models? Any chance that the actual AGW will be eventually shown to be a fraction of the current projections?
____________________________________________
GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH LETTERS, VOL. 34, L15707, doi:10.1029/2007GL029698, 2007
Cloud and radiation budget changes associated with tropical intraseasonal oscillations
Roy W. Spencer – Earth System Science Center, University of Alabama in Huntsville, Huntsville, Alabama, USA
William D. Braswell – Earth System Science Center, University of Alabama in Huntsville, Huntsville, Alabama, USA
John R. Christy – Earth System Science Center, University of Alabama in Huntsville, Huntsville, Alabama, USA
Justin Hnilo – Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Livermore, California, USA
Abstract
We explore the daily evolution of tropical intraseasonal oscillations in satellite-observed tropospheric temperature, precipitation, radiative fluxes, and cloud properties. The warm/rainy phase of a composited average of fifteen oscillations is accompanied by a net reduction in radiative input into the ocean-atmosphere system, with longwave heating anomalies transitioning to longwave cooling during the rainy phase. The increase in longwave cooling is traced to decreasing coverage by ice clouds, potentially supporting Lindzen’s “infrared iris” hypothesis of climate stabilization. These observations should be considered in the testing of cloud parameterizations in climate models, which remain sources of substantial uncertainty in global warming prediction.
Received 15 February 2007; accepted 16 July 2007; published 9 August 2007.

Robert
October 6, 2007 8:01 pm

Re: Do you have a link to that paper?
Google told me this:
http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2007/2007GL029698.shtml

October 6, 2007 8:13 pm

Wow, I’ve seen people fall back on law of the jungle thinking before, but never quite so literally. Yes, humanity probably would survive all sorts of radical shifts. Hit us with an impact event that leaves the skies dark as night for years, and remnants of our kind may shelter in deep bunkers to emerge and rebuild when nature permits. Does that mean we should shrug and do nothing if we see an enormous rock headed this way?
No credible forecasts related to global warming involve a scenario that “destroys the world” or even exterminates humanity. However, our economic endeavors rest on a much more precarious position than our mere survival. Agriculture, an unavoidable economic necessity and one of America’s strong suits, is extremely vulnerable to even slight variation in climate. Some populations in Europe and Asia are at particular risk of losing access to drinking water without the natural buffer glacial reserves provide. It is wrong to characterize this as a doomsday issue, but then again only conservatives intent on attacking that straw man actually do indulge in that characterization. People intent on honest discussion recognize the peril as largely economic, but extremely large in its potential to inflict economic losses.
While I appreciate that this is not the first warming episode in the history of the world and that cooling periods have occured at times of greater CO2, I do not appreciate the bait and switch here. Long before humanity evolved (or is it taboo to suggest we aren’t descended from some guy sculpted out of clay less than 10,000 years ago?) biological activity had yet to produce anything like the atmospheric chemistry of the present. The fact that there were ice ages throughout natural history does not negate the fact that carbon dioxide in the atmosphere enhances the intensity of the greenhouse effect. Be it vulcanism or impact events or any number of other causes, that higher levels of CO2 didn’t prevent those ice ages is irrelevant. Heck, it is still just speculation as to whether or not any degree of global warming could avert the next ice age.
Why then is there such interest in these prehistoric events? Why would the ice age phenomenon be offered up as “proof” against beliefs related to anthropogenic global warming? I can only infer from it all that Mr. Edelman is hopeful that people will take a simple-minded approach that delves no deeper than “hot and cold are opposites.” Understanding why ice ages occur, getting informed about the complexities of global climate, radiant energy, atmospheric chemistry, etc. — all that is apparently off the table. Instead it is all dumbed down to “it was cold when CO2 was everywhere, so it can’t possibly be that CO2 could warmth.” The truth is that the influence of CO2 on temperature is not in the same order of magnitude as forces that drive the ice caps to engulf temperate latitudes. If you understand that, then you ought to also understand what a bogus and misleading line of inquiry this is.
Now, I will grant that there is no perfect knowledge of climate systems even today. However, the intuitive hunches of decades past now yield to views based on credible research. We do not know everything there is to know about gravity or light or magnetism, but does that mean you should doubt me if I tell you not to jump off a bridge? Apparently you should if someone who panders to your political prejudices manages to argue that the jump is a good idea. I have yet to use the term “sheep” in the context Vixt implies. Yet how else might one characterize behavior like that? (Especially with that tired old saw about how humanity is too puny to make a difference. Never mind the CO2 metaphor that is entirely in agreement with the factual case that supports a finding of industrial emissions being a significant cause behind the effect of global warming. If he believes that a gas must be more than a small part of the atmosphere to alter its behavior, imagine the mindblowing experience it would be to educate him about ozone chemistry and physics.)

Jay
October 6, 2007 8:15 pm

Demonweed spoke of a 35:34 ratio when describing the “tipping point”. That would be true if that was how much CO2 we were contributing, but I thought our contribution was 0.012% of the total atmosphere and only 0.9% of all greenhouse gases. Seems like if greenhouse gases were causing the dramatic 1 degree raise in temperature then we should be looking at the other 99.1% of the problem. I personally cannot take much of what Hansen says seriously. He was part of the “Global Cooling” warning in the 70’s. Just this past summer there were a few bad tornados. What did Hansen do? He created a new computer model to say that global warming was causing them. Seems like he foregoes hard research and only relys on his precious models. Do we honestly believe that we have the technology to accurately predict ever factor that drives our climate?

Bob Edelman
October 6, 2007 8:26 pm

Demonweed,
Good. We’re making progress. You have agreed that CO2 is not necessarily the driving force for climate change.

paminator
October 6, 2007 8:28 pm

Bob:
Thanks for the review of AIT, and thanks to Anthony for posting it. I do not understand Demonweed’s ranting defense of AIT, as much of its scientific accuracy was dismissed long ago. I consider it about as accurate as the science used in The Day After Tomorrow”, but AIT is a snoreville by comparison.
My brother’s reaction to the movie (he is a professional classical musician) was that he almost fell asleep, and came away out of the theatre with an urge to go out and buy Apple products.
Also, I am glad to see that Demonweed, by default, enthusiastically supports rapid deployment of nuclear power throughout the world. As greenergists should be aware, solar and wind are not base-load dispatchable generation, and require between 60% – 80% of their generation capacity to be backed up by ADDITIONAL generation from reliable sources. If coal, oil, gas are off-limits, that leaves nuclear.

BarryW
October 6, 2007 8:39 pm

wes george (02:25:10) :
I think you got the wrong Eric: It was Eric Hoffer who wrote the True Believer which is the best description of someone like Gore or Demoweed I’ve ever read.