This is unfortunate that it didn’t work, but perhaps they tried to do too much here, like solve climate change and third-world social household habits all in one. The real solution is bringing inexpensive electricity to places like this.
From the UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON:
Replacing traditional cooking fires and stoves in the developing world with “cleaner” stoves is a potential strategy to reduce household air pollution that worsens climate change and is a leading global killer.
A new study by researchers from the University of British Columbia, University of Washington and elsewhere — which measured ambient and indoor household air pollution before and after a carbon-finance-approved cookstove intervention in rural India — found that the improvements were less than anticipated.

CREDIT Ther Wint Aung, University of British Columbia
Actual indoor concentrations measured in the field were only moderately lower for the new stoves than for traditional stoves, according to a paper published in June in Environmental Science & Technology. The study is one of only a handful to measure on-the-ground differences from a clean cookstove project in detail, and the first to assess co-benefits from a carbon-financed cookstove intervention.
Additionally, 40 percent of families who used a more efficient wood stove as part of the intervention also elected to continue using traditional stoves, which they preferred for making staple dishes such as roti bread. That duplication erased many of the hoped-for efficiency and pollution improvements.
Laboratory studies suggested that the more efficient, cleaner-burning stoves could reduce a family’s fuelwood consumption by up to 67 percent, thereby reducing household air pollution and deforestation. In practice, there was no statistically significant difference in fuel consumption between families who used the new stoves and families who continued to cook over open fires or traditional stoves.
Without field-based evaluations, clean cookstove interventions may be pursued under carbon financing programs that fail to realize expected carbon reductions or anticipated health and climate benefits, the study concludes.
“A stove may perform well in the lab, but a critical question is what happens in the real world?” said lead author Ther Wint Aung, a doctoral student at UBC’s Institute for Resources, Environment and Sustainability. “Women who are busy tending crops and cooking meals and caring for children are using stoves in a number of ways in the field that don’t match conditions in the lab.”
Across all households, average indoor concentrations of particulate matter, an unhealthy component of cooking smoke that can contribute to lung and heart disease, increased after the intervention stoves were introduced — likely because of seasonal weather patterns or food rituals that required more cooking.
The median increase, however, was smaller in homes where families exclusively used intervention stoves — 51 micrograms per cubic meter, compared to 92 micrograms per cubic meter for families who used both intervention and traditional stoves and 139 micrograms per cubic meter for the control group of families who continued cooking on a traditional stove.
“On the one hand, there was less of an increase in some pollution levels and that’s a win. But on the other hand, it feels pretty far from a complete solution,” said co-author Julian Marshall, UW professor of civil and environmental engineering.
The cookstove intervention the research team studied was the first stove intervention in India approved for financing under the Kyoto Protocol’s Clean Development Mechanism, which allows wealthier countries to reduce their climate emissions by investing in projects that provide climate benefits elsewhere.
Among 187 families who cooked with traditional stoves that burn wood or agricultural waste in the Koppal District of Karnataka in southern India, approximately half were randomly assigned to receive intervention stoves — a single-pot “rocket” cookstove that burns the same biomass fuels. Randomization allowed the two groups to be comparable on demographic and socio-economic variables that may influence the outcome of measures, thereby minimizing potential bias.
The community-based organization leading the intervention has a history of working in the region and took care to address issues promptly and ensure that the new stoves were culturally acceptable, such as lowering the height of the stoves to meet the ergonomic needs of the women using them.
The research team took detailed measurements of how much wood the two groups burned — as well as air pollution within the household cooking areas and at sites in the center and upwind of the village — before and after the intervention stoves were introduced.
The researchers also measured black carbon — a less studied component of smoke that has negative health effects and also contributes to climate change — and found intervention stoves increased the proportion of that pollutant in the smoke.
Next steps for the research team include investigating whether giving families more choices among intervention stoves — with the goal of finding one that would meet a wider range of their needs — could further reduce reliance on traditional, more polluting stoves.
“We haven’t cracked this nut yet,” Marshall said. “But maybe that’s the nature of this problem — maybe we’re going to have small, incremental steps forward. Maybe it’s not going to be a vaccine-type approach where you have one giant step that dramatically reduces the problem.”
“Ultimately households throughout the world will desire the same clean cooking technologies used in high-income countries and in most urban areas: electricity or gas,” said co-author Michael Brauer, UBC professor in the School of Population and Public Health. “This study suggests that the interim solution of cleaner biomass stoves remains elusive.”
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The heartbreak of academic proctocraniosis.
At least they bothered to go to the field and measure something. They could have stuck it all in an “Indian Household Computer Model” and let a super computer tell them that everything worked exactly as they had envisioned.
True, Owen, they did the field test. That doesn’t mean they didn’t first create the IHCM, of course, and then build at least several dozen of their El Supremo cookstoves. One unit, delivered to India, might have been enough to prove the concept. Or show that it was mostly bogus. The blind and their computer models continue to lead the blind. 🙂
Africa needs electricity. Coal-fired plants and NG plants. Nuclear plants (most expensive to build, no C02 emissions). Every hut has clean stoves. Death rates from breathing percolate matter go to zero. Woodlands to support wildlife expand. What’s not to like?
Greenpeace, WWF, NRDC et al are run by lunatics. Racist, misanthropic lunatics.
particulate,
+
1
The food tastes different. If the stove doesn’t permit the traditional methods for preparing the rhoti, then people will complain or revert. There’s a reason why we like food prepared using specific methods. Imagine traditional southern pit BBQ prepared “more efficiently” – one shudders. Puritannical forces have been working hard to persuade whole populations that “if it tastes good, it’s bad for you.”
How about New York pizza baked without those coal-fired ovens? Not the same flavor, sorry.
Maybe the new stoves don’t explode as often, which seems to be a significant cause of death (of house wives).
Best if you know what you are messing with.
g
“they tried to do too much here, like solve climate change and third-world social household habits all in one.”
not sure why they have to burden the poorest of the poor with the climate priorities of the rich.
this kind of thinking is wrecking international development aid
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2812034
If you cut down PM25, you presumably help prevent lung disease. But the pots are way back in an oven chute, and the soot shows you it is mostly going up and out. Interestingly, I was not aware it was proven carbon black caused climate change.
“Proven” to some means ” I really really, really believe with all my heart”. There was a proposed link between Chinese black carbon emissions impacting N Hemisphere snow pack through decreasing albedo.
“Interestingly, I was not aware it was proven carbon black caused climate change.”
Read harder then.
IPCC
That’s the biggest part of why the Himalayan glaciers are melting so fast, elemental carbon in soot soaks up a lot of solar energy
“Interestingly, I was not aware it was proven carbon black caused climate change.”
It isn’t, any more than it is proven that CO2 causes it, no matter what any second-hand climate database salesman who is dependent on promulgating such a canard to make his living would have you believe.
Something that conserves scarce fuel resources to poor economies isn’t all bad. If it improves the indoor air pollution and deforestation problems in developing countries as well that is a bonus. BUT, if the people won’t use it because it interferes with long standing cultural practices, it is useless. The one thing I have noticed about leftist utopias – they all fail to incorporate human nature into their planning.
I think it is more a total misunderstanding of human nature, a belief in the ultimate goodness of mankind.
chaamjal, And they have not stopped trying: Next steps for the research team include investigating whether giving families more choices among intervention stoves — with the goal of finding one that would meet a wider range of their needs — could further reduce reliance on traditional, more polluting stoves.
send more money.
I was not aware you could make burning cow crap more energy efficient in the first place. They probably used wood in their lab tests, but the Indians burn turds. There is no wood.
fuel is the largest use of wood in India…
See
http://www.cifor.org/publications/pdf_files/Books/Fuelwood.pdf?q=fuelwood
(large, may have hiccups loading it)
This is unfortunate that it didn’t work, but perhaps they tried to do too much here, like solve climate change and third-world social household habits all in one. The real solution is bringing inexpensive electricity to places like this.
__________________________________________
There we go – feudalism, counting on domestic livestock + the unsolved problematic caste system .
There are tens of millions of people still cooking on wood fires – and somehow electricity has not been provided for them from existing power systems.
They need efficient cooking stoves to stop deforestation and improve their health…
This is a useful and worthy programme – and you will note it is being rigorously evaluated, not just rolled out on the basis of expectation/ideology.
This programme may not have been entirely successful, but note it is not the only one out there…
Alongside efficient stove programmes, there are many commercially based ventures aimed at replacement of kerosene lamps by solar chargeable LED lanterns (kerosene is a major cause of fuel poverty, ill health from fumes and fires).
There are also a large number of small scale solar PV projects helping those off grid improve their lives.
These programmes are cheap, effective and can be delivered by setting up small businesses which benefit communities.
There is little chance of any of the communities involved being supplied with conventional power.
Why snipe at this? what’s wrong with improving peoples’ lives like this?
…There is little chance of any of the communities involved being supplied with conventional power….
Then THAT’S what needs to change.
For the amount of money being spent on ‘climate change’, we could provide running water, sanitation, power and decent roads to ALL the people of the world – many times over. We don’t do this because the entire First World Foreign Aid establishment would lose their jobs if we did it….
Affordable, clean, energy is what people want. They don’t mind getting an intervention stove if its better, but it is hardly the answer. Use your imagination; what would you want?
exactly!!! power to pump/filter clean water and sewerage alone would save many lives
The best antipoverty program the US could back is the installation of fail safe nukes in developing countries. This could bypass local corruption and lessen the costs of building power lines for electrification. It would probably serve the interest of the poor very well but not anyone else. So, who cares?
small, fails safe modular nukes as per mPower.
The reason to snipe at this is that it’s such a fat juicy target.
The real challenge is to provide people with real power that will transform their lives…not some sticking plaster solution.
Yes, but no one is providing grid sourced conventional power to these people, not now, not in the last 50 years and very probably not in the next few decades.
This article looks into providing electricity in India from coal or renewables – and sets out the scale of the problem and why grid power has not materialised…
http://reneweconomy.com.au/2015/memo-to-ipa-the-australian-coal-can-save-indias-poor-argument-fails-on-every-front-85191
And with that link
The government is sprouting wings to bring in long-term policies and schemes for an unprecedented expansion in renewable energy projects. It has recently announced revision of the target of renewable energy capacity to 175 GW by 2022,which comprises additional capacity addition of 100GW solar, 60GW wind, 10GW biomass and 5GW small hydro.
______________________________________
everybody knows that Dreck is neither reliable, sufficient nor adequate renewable.
It’s just
a gigantic challenge that requires the efforts of countless organizations, companies, and countries:
Потёмкинская деревня – Potyomkin villages
Griff,
Interesting reading.
His only argument that makes any sense is that rural areas in India are too remote for grid hook up.
That might be so, but his assertion that renewable power is any better is pure speculation, not backed up by anything.
The article keeps referring to renewable power as “good quality electricity” and “clean and adequate power” and other glowing terms, which make it absolutely clear that the article is a propaganda against coal, pure and simple.
You say that “no one is providing grid sourced conventional power to these people, not now, not in the last 50 years and very probably not in the next few decades”
Well, maybe instead of wasting limited resource to pushing things nobody want, we should be working on providing that conventional power to them? We know that worked well for number of countries. Show me a single region-wide example where solar power actually brought prosperity to poor people? How about actually achieved anything useful?
Theoretical versus real world actual. Sort of like the comparison between the theoretical nameplate power output of a wind turbine and the actual output. Not even close.
As soon as I see words “programme,” “community,” and such, I know I am being robbed again, and some bureaucrats are warming their hands over the stove where they sadistically burn my efforts and mi lifetime.
I’m going to speak up for Griff. This was well intentioned and a step in the right direction, if ultimately flawed. It should be taken as a lesson about overreliance on lab instead of field studies, not a condemnation of the whole concept.
At least it’s a viable design instead of being battery-powered or any other such nonsense (does anyone else remember that forced-air one which required a constant supply of charity-provided batteries?), and it does provide some modest benefit. However, anyone expecting silver bullets is rather naïve for this day and age, so let’s take it at face value, an imperfect attempt at improving lives, instead of rampant cynicism.
Griff’s heart is in the right place, but the problem is that we have the silver bullet. First world countries have been using it for almost two centuries: reliably energy. Bringing reliable energy isn’t going to happen overnight, of course, but had we started deploying reliable energy 30-60 years ago when the international aid programs got their start, most of the third world countries would be well and truly enabled by now and be contributing members of the world while their citizens would participate in the luxury and comfort we first worlders have access to..
Instead, we pay billions a year to fund “slightly better wood stoves with a heart of gold” instead of things like clean water transport, energy services, and market access. The people actually out there trying to make a difference in these areas do so on a shoestring budget while the first world’s international aid apparatus is plundered and rendered ineffective by rent seekers under the cover of “green” and/or “sustainable”.
We have it Arsivo, but we have not delivered it…
Ben, here’s a couple of other interesting pieces of low tech for water supply:
http://www.ecology.com/2014/09/09/eliodomestico-personal-water-desalination/
http://www.treehugger.com/clean-technology/solar-powered-water-purification-system-huge-success-mexican-village.html
A) Nothing truly improved
B) As an experiment it is a strong confirmation bias approach
• a) No controls
• b) Where is the preceding period of study establishing a basis?
• c) There is not an equal stove use schedule, testing all households for applicability, usage and efficiency
C) There are not any follow up tests or controls
• a) The assumption is that researchers will continue to tinker
• b) Where is the observing period?
• b1) Will the villagers a(continue to use the stoves?
• b2) b(prefer the new or old stoves; what are the goto stoves?
D) Were villagers given a choice, bribed or forced to use the new stoves?
E) After the test, if villagers given a choice of the following, choose what:
• a) new standard stove
• b) a new ‘new model’ stove
• c) any other choice of a stove, e.g. tandoor
F) Where are the exit interviews with the villagers?
Otherwise this research smacks of Westerners deciding what is best for a several thousand year old civilization without true local input, or common sense.
I might take slight issue with B)a). There were households that were not provided the stoves which also were measured – that is a control group. It was also the baseline measure the other homes were compared to.
Could also take issue with A) indoor pollution in the households that adopted the stoves improved dramatically, just not as well as they did in the lab tests. There was also improvement in air quality in the partial adoption group, but again no where near the lab results.
In C) they showed that most villagers did not adopt the new stove exclusively, but used the old stoves or open fires to prepare certain dishes in accordance with tradition. There were some that adopted the new technology, but you are right that no indication was given about the attitude of the villagers on long term adoption.
D) is an interesting question, but looking at the reported results, it looks like there was a choice (whether intended or not)
E) and F) would be a good follow-up.
My rating on this is that it was a good undergraduate sociology experiment, lacking in the experience and advice of a faculty adviser. They actually attempted to measure the impact of the proposed hypothesis and found holes in the theory. A good, if imperfect, example of field work. Your summary comment however is the one that brings it right out. As with all leftist utopian visions, they did not take the human element into their calculations.
Owen in GA:
That would not be a true control group.
Each household is a unique environment and installation with changing interiors, levels, ventilation, cooks and distractions…
Each household should have been surveyed and monitored for a lengthy period before any stoves were installed to establish patterns of particulates. Not just someone’s summation and average, but a chart against time and day.
As it stands, the alleged results are comparisons of different households, new stove installations versus households without, not of households prior to/after installation.
I agree with your assessment that the research is “that it was a good undergraduate sociology experiment, lacking in the experience and advice of a faculty adviser”.
With those considerations it would be a good undergraduate effort worthy of better respect.
“D) is an interesting question, but looking at the reported results, it looks like there was a choice (whether intended or not)”
Maybe, what is definitely not clear is whether there was any/equal compensation established for all participants.
Or whether first responders to accept new stoves received more researcher assistance/cooperation along with any other perks; e.g. babysitting, fuel gathering, cooking…
Frankly, I doubt a team of researchers can visit any rural, suburban community and get willing cooperation without either government pressures, cash compensation or both.
Nor would I allow them to enter my house with such intrusions without substantial benefits.
A last question.
“In C) they showed that most villagers did not adopt the new stove exclusively”.
I viewed it much as someone dropping in and not offering me a new stove/stovetop, but offering me a new burner.
Oh Boy! Six burners instead of five! Plus, the new burner is larger.
Given that the cooks view the new stove as just an addition and ran it along with all of their original cooking gear, How did the particulate levels drop?
The old stoves are working, the new stoves are working. New particulate generation combined with old particulate generation equal less overall particulates?
Perhaps the greater heat ventilated up the smoke shaft more efficiently?
The cost of renewables alone runs into something like a trillion USD a year. Imagine what kind of aid you could provide with money. The first thing you could do is to establish a program to build conventional power stations. This could also provide work for locals.
“what’s wrong with improving peoples’ lives like this?”.jpg)
It’s you bedwetters that are hell-bent on ensuring that a substantial proportion of the Indian population are prevented from proving their lives by being supplied with clean energy from fossil fuels via a decent transmission system, which would be far more ecologically sound than burning wood hence causing deforestation and wildlife destruction, not to mention phenomena such as the Brown Cloud.
So why don’t you tell us?
The solution India adopted – with success -is the use of LPG stoves / bottles. Electric cooking would overload the already shaky grid.
And don’t forget biogas…
solar is a great solution for water pumping in rural India, which currently is major rural use for electricity – you can put the panels over irrigation canals and also reduce evaporation
Wood/dung burning stoves should in principle offer an opportunity for an almost total reduction of particulates in the living area where they are sited.
I have a multifuel stove in my kitchen. I burn vast amounts of fuel each year and the air in my kitchen is perfectly clean. I can not smell the slightest hint of smoke in the air, and surfaces do not collect any soot.
Every year, I also spend some time with Bengalis, who visit from Chhattisgarh, India.
Back in rural india, they use an open stove. Air rushes through an entrance at the base and the wood smoke rises directly into the room. These indians do not understand how to construct an efficient modern sealed stove with a flue. i.e. a stove with a sealable door giving total control over the air flow.
Now, some bunch of idiots have gone over to india and introduced – THE WRONG KIND OF STOVE.
The rocket stove designs that I have looked at are more or less a metal version of what the indians already have. They are crap.
Now, research into the efficacy of this misdirected goof-up has concluded that the real-world results have been disappointing.
Well, congratulations idiots – that’s because you don’t know the most basic thing about designing or using efficient stoves.
It’s a massive facepalm moment for me.
I was looking forward to seeing western agencies assist indians in introducing cheap, efficient, clean sealable stoved. Such stoves can be manufactured very cheaply from old gas cylinders and a some 1/4″ mild sheet steel. (I know a man who constructs such stoves for a living.)
But, it turns out that academics, NGOs and government agencies involved are just as technological backward as the indias who they wish to pretend to be helping.
P.S. everyone – Indians do not want to make rotis on electric cookers.
If they make rotis here in the west then they prefer gas and a griddle pan.
Why is it that the good-intentioned are almost invariably also the most misinformed?
If anyone from such an organization is reading my comment then please contact me and I will tell you exactly what simple measure could be taken to totally remedy the current situation, reduce pollution, wastage of fuel and create clean air in the living area.
This is not rocket science – and it did not require rocket stoves.
At least they went and tested it rather than plugging their preconceived notions into a supercomputer and claiming it proved their point.
Yeah, we should be grateful for small mercies.
Although, they could possibly have considered testing a variety of designs PRIOR to spending hundred’s millions on roll out.
There is a difference in food prepared using electric stoves and the same food prepared using wood, gas, and etc.
But most urban residents in the West don’t know this.
BZ indef for pointing out air tight, properly vented stoves are much better.
What an idiot! Heard of an electric induction cook stove? That is what was in our apartment in China at the company compound for building new nukes.
Griff, solar chargeable LED lights and this?
reenventing Londons smog and fog, smoke over Vienna, Paris, Berlin – back to Kaisers Zeiten?
Giving people in developing countries cheaper, cleaner lighting and cooking?
That’s a good thing to do anyway, isn’t it?
Here’s a link I meant to give earlier to one of these projects:
http://sustainnovate.ae/en/innovators-blog/detail/breaking-energy-poverty-without-damaging-nature
You’very read your link –
This is a gigantic challenge that requires the efforts of countless organizations, companies, and countries.
– guess you’ll make it to the end of this century?
Just to make that clear –
Feudalism – counting domestic livestock including slaves, Ständestaat == cast system + suppression of women.
_____________________
in a modern, capitalistic democratic Nation with ‘suppression of women’
you have more than 50% of voters against YOU!
Feudalism – counting domestic livestock including slaves, Ständestaat == cast system + suppression of women.
__________________________________________
The environmentalists dream IndiaTM.
[Rather, “Feudalism = powered by domestic livestock including slaves, farmers, women, and children” .mod]
every redaction / contribution is welcome –
thanks mod!
no offend ment to anyone. The wrong turn is to Chmer Rouge.
Johann, what do they have currently? Have you even considered that?
What this program is doing is providing more efficient cookstoves. That’s it. This is to replace an older stove or open fire, which is MORE polluting.
The only reason that those cities had pollution problems that rural areas don’t is population density.
Ben you’re right.
Currently they do have manpower. Intelligent young people making their ways in mathematics, physics, IT on the Internet but ambulant all over the world.
And a subcontinent covered with a min. 2 km volcanic outlet shield cover.
One of the natural gifted, fruit bringing wealthiest / subcontinents / on this planet.
_____________________________
Why not begin with plain NLG ?
Bringing the industrial revolution to a land of a billion people that is more than 80% poor, rural, and agricultural is not a trivial task. The long term goal is of course that they get modernized. However, that has to come from within. There is plenty of discussion on this thread about how this was not taking into account the human element and Westerners deciding what was best for Indians.
How much more so is the actual process of industrialization, which must be inbuilt, natural, and homegrown, or it will certainly end in disaster. This is but an interim step.
“…but a critical question is what happens in the real world.” Hombre, that dangerous radical’s academic job is toast!
Seriously, nothing wrong with some of these new scrap stoves. Maybe something more important is to subsidise pressure cookers. Indians have used them for ages and they now manufacture millions of them. So there’s a solution right at the front door.
This project has the appearances of the proverbial Boy Scout helping the old lady to cross the street where she really didn’t care to go. If you gave each test family $100, how many would use it to buy this cook stove? It doesn’t appear that many would put this at the top of list. Dogooderism never trumps culture.
I don’t regard the article as “sniping.” There is nothing wrong with improving people’s lives, so long as the improvement is real and doesn’t have unwanted side effects; the study cited happens to reveal certain problems or limitations, which is good. The over-riding factor for the people engaging in this experiment (as opposed to those who oversee and record it) is convenience coupled with health and environmental improvement; it would be no favor to them or to anyone else to overlook the actual effects. The conclusion drawn–that the complete solution would be reliable electricity or at least natural gas–is logical and warranted. Burning cow dung indoors is bound to have at least some deleterious effects, but since it is a renewable and constant resource, cheap or free to the users, it will continue to be used until reliable electricity can take its place. Of course, electricity via solar panels or windmills is intermittent, unreliable, and expensive, to say nothing of its effects on birds, so it is not the solution.
Sure … that’s a plausible alternative to handing out more efficient wood stoves.
Simply pop in a cheap power generation source, pop in some high voltage wiring, stick in a substation every now and again, wire in some three phase electricity around the dirt streets, after knocking in a network of power poles or underground wires, wire up each house, and find everyone an electric stove. Import the high voltage linesmen, network analysis, substation workers and electricians from the city, and pay all their salaries by a simply charging for the electricity to the new electric stove owners.
Wiring up the houses will probably require rebuilding the odd mud-brick wall, but you could do that when you wire up all the houses.
It’s a wonder why they went to all the effort of handing out efficient wood stoves when the reliable electricity solution just sitting there so logical and warranted.
…and the Indian grid currently being so reliable… 🙂
Thanks for the straw man, Seth. Thinking is fundamental. You should try it sometime.
+100, alas.
“Thanks for the straw man, Seth.”
I took Seth’s comment as sarcasm. Note that he was careful to detail the required steps, illustrating the difficulties hidden in the simplistic phrase “the complete solution would be reliable electricity.” The suggestion that it be paid for by the poverty-stricken villagers themselves was a dead giveaway.
Seth, never overestimate your audience, and never underestimate the value of a “/sarc” or a smiley. 🙂
I bet Seth has not even seen, nor been in, a mud hut with electricity supply!
but there is an immediately applicable solution between firewood/dung and any electricity supply…
and in a tropical country with 300 plus excellent solar days a year solar charging LED lanterns are a better, cleaner, cheaper option than kerosene lamps used today – and they have mobile phone chargers!
Griff, we know about that all having mobile phones syndrome. Lots of boat people this days.
do gooders want to see climate refugees.
Griff, the problem with solar is that its’ extremely high maintenance, creates a heat island, and India is a huge country with multiple ecological zones. The people who live in forests are not going to benefit from solar without clearing forest area. The people who live in cities aren’t going to benefit, unless they happen to live on the top two floors.
The low density to medium density flat towns can generally be well served by solar in a lot of areas, but that’s where you hit the two other issues: creating both a heat island and a lot of maintenance on top of the subsistence-level work they already do. Maintenance needs that are exacerbated by not having a local Home Depot or Radio Shack they can run to to grab replacement parts.
Solar is a great solution in some cases, but the use case fit is not as expansive as you suggest. Its primary and most effective use case is augmentation of reliable energy. It works the absolute best when you can, for instance, add solar to a US Home in an appropriately sunny area. During sunny days, you are most likely to use extra electricity for cooling, and this can come in large to full parts from a solar array which reduces aggregate strain on the system.
Additionally, reliable energy is directly proportional to investment – we need to be investing our aid dollars into building out the infrastructure to make energy reliable. Whether that’s piped and/or delivered LPG as India currently does or building a rather huge and robust electrical distribution network is really upto the competing economics of each situation and location.
Johann, why shouldn’t everyone have a mobile phone if they can afford it?
Griff, ever heard about ‘flash mobs’ ?
about castaway handhelds and cloned SIM cards.
bagpacks of stolen mobiles.
“Max Frisch, der Bürger und die Brandstifter”.
Yes, Seth on July 28, 2016 at 2:50 am
The conclusion drawn–that the complete solution would be ANY reliable energy source at least natural gas–is logical and warranted.
Isn’t China’s air pollution problem caused by home fuel use, 10s of millions use coal at home
Britain and Ireland’s smog was home coal use not coal plants, almost every home burned coal which absolutely dwarfed plant emissions
UK smog was both home coal and coal and other power plants in cities – London’s Battersea power station and what is now the Tate Modern gallery are power stations once generating in the heart of London
just wondering what would have been total home use vs stations. I assume millions used more for heating than plants did for power?
Pollution is one thing, while CO2 production is another. Emissions is a word that ambiguously serves the UN mind control conveyor belt. I don’t accept that CO2 production is problematic so the article needs to be criticized for that first.
I lived 7 years in Tanzania and we produced in our school several cookstoves there. But we didn’t give them away for free. People had to buy for it. The best sellinng item were clay-insulated charcoal cookstoves with less than half the comsumption.
We made also one european style cookstove with place for up to six pots, a baking oven and heat exchanger for water heating stored in a plastic drum on the roof. We used it daily for our household of eight. We sold lots of them, but with 150$, it was quite expensive for Africans. But the people loved it, because it was made partly out of bricks, thus storing the heat and keeping the kitchen warm during the night. And you could burn even long twigs as well as any combustible matter. It needed a short chimney, and it burnt so clean you coudn’t even see a smoke.
We had electricity, but we didn’t use it for cooking because even we as Europeans saved a lot of money and it was so convenient.
If you want to distribute something, you have to live there amongst the folks and to use it by yourself.
Yours is the only clueful post I have seen here.
The idea that you can dump technology on a community with good results is just dreaming. Based on what I have read over the years, Africa must be covered six feet deep in failed projects (poetic license invoked) and they keep coming.
If all I want to do is boil water, the rocket stove wins every time. If I want to run my household with the available resources then the rocket stove might never win. It all depends on the local conditions.
I didn’t read a single word about how the researchers worked with the local population to find out what their needs really were.
But we didn’t give them away for free.
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Exactly. Giving anything away for free in the name of “doing good” kills the local market, making problems worse than before you started.
If the stoves cannot be made locally with village labor and materials at hand, it is already a failed project because the underlying problem is not technology, it is economics.
Exactly…
which is why the solar LED lantern projects are all commercial – they sell them to small local businesses…
I believe that was the theme of the title vignette in the 1958 novel, The Ugly American. Live among the people, learn their culture, change behavior by example.
Griff It is not giving when government takes property with threats of violence from people such as me to promote and fund parastatal agencies and things such as this this. India has a shaky power grid and thousands still unconnected in the twenty-first century because it adopted ill- conceived English ideas – Fabian socialism – over good ones – free exchange and protection of property rights – and is burdened by all of the corruption that caused, now further enabled by such agencies as we read about here – funded with involuntarily obtained ill gotten loot or loans secured by threats of violence against us and our posterty.
I don’t see that there’s a connection between the bad acts of government and supplying appropriate low cost tech to improve people’s lives – especially the lives of the poorest…
The best models for these programmes are private philanthropy or charity funding sale of the items at low cost – not giving them away.
The government is not, I trust, forcing you to donate to charity or give your own money away as you see fit…
The lede says carbon-financed. That means state-financed. That means tax-financed. Taxes are taken by force. Cash is fungible. You trust wrongly. Please don’t mix it up. Threats of violence supported this do-gooder project, even which discounts the quality of these people living themselves in oppression and backwardness. I, for one, am appalled.
So that’s the whole base for that garbage out –
“The best models for these programmes are private philanthropy or charity funding sale of the items at low cost – not giving them away.”
__________________________________
And last green believers standing on
This is a gigantic challenge that requires the efforts of countless organizations, companies, and countries.
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we won’t pay. won’t happen. period.
40 years after –
UN spending correlates with
‘ This is a gigantic challenge that requires the efforts of countless organizations, companies, and countries.’
with ‘where does the heat hide’
with ‘whom shall we next dump UN General Secretary’
with ‘let’s do a studie, something with ‘climate change’.
7:03am:
No Griff, you don’t see. But your kind won’t let that stop you. I have lived through national, self-funded, reticulation. And with good fuel-burning stoves too. Both very useful, unlike any of your propositions. Saw the filth and disease of the hippies as well, along with the terrible results of far left theories. India is sorting itself out at last, by classical means and their own skills including advanced technologies. They wasted 50 plus years on your mindset…
“The real solution is bringing inexpensive electricity to places like this.”
The reality of life that the liberal left just cannot face..
I guess India also has the burden of people telling it that it’s people should not become modern.
On the contrary, the Indian govt has pledged to provide all its citizens with electricity… as has the Kenyan govt (which is currently rolling out that programme with World Bank funding)
Ah. Problem solved, then. 🙂
Making a pledge is one thing, actually delivering is another.
Indians aren’t idly waiting for Burdened White Men to save them from themselves. They’re taking matters into their own hands to reduce indoor air pollution – which, predictably, involves burning more fossil fuels.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-07-26/saving-900-000-lives-drives-india-s-spending-on-cleaner-fuel
Geologists probe geological carbon storage
Study supported by a U.S. Department of Energy Basic Energy Sciences Grant.
http://phys.org/news/2016-07-lid-geologists-probe-geological-carbon.html
Not to be outdone study, funded by the UK Natural Environment Research Council and the UK Department of Energy and Climate Change
CO2 can be stored underground for 10 times the length needed to avoid climatic impact: study
yet another load of nonsense financed by taxpayer
http://cdn.phys.org/newman/csz/news/800/2016/co2canbestor.jpg
Image shows a cold water geyser driven by carbon dioxide erupting from an unplugged oil exploration well drilled in 1936 into a natural CO2 reservoir in Utah. Credit: Professor Mike Bickle
http://phys.org/news/2016-07-co2-underground-length-climatic-impact.html
I wonder if this is the one named Crystal Geyser just a few miles downstream of Green River, Utah, on the Green River? We camped there while canoeing the Green. It erupts every two days or so, shooting the carbonated water about 20 feet into the air. Great to stand under on a hot afternoon. It is also an uncapped gas well. Easy to cap if they wanted to. The pipe and cement are still in good shape.
Yes, obviously, creating an electrical power infrastructure is the work of decades and will require a vast expenditure of resources. And I agree that interim measures to address health and safety issues caused by current conditions is a laudable goal.
However, if the end result intended is to improve the lives of the inhabitants of the region then the end goal should be modernization of the region. I don’t believe that the Greens have that in mind at all. The root cause of poverty is lack of access to the technology that would allow the people to rise above subsistence. Until that issue is addressed then any efforts to aid the people are temporary and cosmetic.
“Across all households, average indoor concentrations of particulate matter, an unhealthy component of cooking smoke that can contribute to lung and heart disease, increased after the intervention stoves were introduced”
Maybe they should go back to the drawing board, and burn it.
Might be a good start to not label the product as an intervention stove.
No fail…
Cinder blocks? But then who’s going to make money selling stoves to government agencies?
Adam Savage Tests the Best Ways to Sear a Steak! :
Ah, a reminder of college days, and there were many for me. Cinder block bunk beds, cinder block stereo shelves. Very useful.
Can’t forget those days. One time I came home, mid-70’s my newlywed bride was playing one of my vinyl LPs. It didn’t sound right.
The sound was sorta filling the living room, at a lowish volume, but the texture of the sound was really weird..
There was no sound coming from the floor speakers.
i went to the Marantz receiver.
Shizzatt! The volume knob was turned clockwise all the way to the high-stop.
The headphones were plugged in. My wife was using the headphones as room speakers! Not a good idea…
That “H-block” they use can be tough to find, however the H-configuration can be accomplished via 2 ea. 8x2x16 cap blocks and 4x2x8 concrete bricks.
https://www.danielharper.org/yauu/2015/01/concrete-block-rocket-stove/
It appears they work best with two people – one tending the fire, and one cooking. The concrete does act as a heat sink, so some inefficiency there.
YouTube “Rocket Stove”, extremely efficient (low smoke and fuel use) and can be made with scrap and local materials (clay?). They are scale-able from paint can size all the way up. They work as the flue gas is trapped in a heated chimney burning off the waste smoke, like a catalytic converter, recovering the wasted fuel and also cleaning the exhaust gases where only water vapor is visable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_1024022927&feature=iv&src_vid=aOZ7gJaqdtQ&v=Gv2ghg3Xtkc
Clearly the answer will be to outlaw cooking and making of hot water.
“A stove may perform well in the lab, but a critical question is what happens in the real world?”
This seems to be a common problem with the GHC folks. Like CO2 research, testing of any product should be done on location, real world. CO2 was also tested in the lab for it’s characteristics to cause warming in our atmosphere. Would it be possible to test it up there where all the action is?
(Mebe I haven’t found the right peer reviewed research yet)
Except this project carried out the research on site, in the real world…
Not enough research, apparently.
This shows the inappropriateness of comparing “expected” performance of new technologies to the actual performance of existing technologies. Performance that is better than expected is rare if ever. In the other direction they can be off an order of magnitude.
See this press release:http://www.washington.edu/news/2013/09/11/uw-engineers-get-grant-to-make-cookstoves-10-times-cleaner-for-developing-world/
@aplanningengineer July 28, 2016 at 4:38 am
I followed your link. The $900,000 grant was to design a more efficient cook stove for 3rd world use. Thanks for the link.
If anyone thinks we’re a tough crowd here, you should see the comments from greenies and tree-huggers under that article; merciless! They were not impressed.
Having been involved in a similar project in Malawi, I’d like to make the following points: 1) the safety improvement (little children burning themselves) hasn’t been addressed, but definitely is a factor, 2) as Johannes Herbst says, you shouldn’t just disribute free stoves, because people will only use them intensively if they are committed by contributing towards their stove, 3) the wood usage (and, notably, the associated wood gathering time for the women) can be cut down to about a third, but more importantly, only branches and twigs rather than logs can be used, which contributes significantly to reducing deforestation (because the tree does not need to be cut).
Never mind whether the CO2 footprint is lowered or not and whether the climate is influenced: these projects are a big improvement for the poorest and they really appreciate them.
Frank, what ‘wood gathering’. 2+ hours women go for water, 2+ hours daughters sampling sh*t for energy supply.
Brave new world.