The Economic Times reports that there is a profound shortage of scientists choosing to study climate change – that advanced Physics and Maths graduates are being attracted to more interesting fields, such as Cosmology.
According to the Economic Times;
The facts should speak for themselves. The Divecha Centre for Climate Change, at the Indian Institute of Science in Bangalore, is organising a national conference on climate change in July. The deadline for submitting abstracts is just two weeks away, and the organisers have received too few quality abstracts of papers for the conference. The message is quite clear: not enough people work on climate change in India.
Till recently, Govindasamy Bala, a professor at the centre involved in organising the conference, thought this was uniquely an Indian problem. But a news story in the journal Nature early this month told him that it was not the case. The story talked about the shortage of good climate scientists in the world, and the efforts of some climatologists to attract more physicists and mathematicians to their field. “I was surprised to learn that shortage of good climate scientists is a global problem,” says Bala.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/why-not-enough-people-are-working-on-climate-change-in-india/articleshow/46965264.cms
The issue, in my opinion, makes perfect sense if you think about it. If you are a talented graduate, bursting with intellectual potential, would you like to work in an intolerant field of research, where new ideas are punished by name calling, ostracism and financial hardship, or would you prefer to apply your talents to a field where new ideas are welcome, and innovation is rewarded?
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Aw, too bad. Climatism is no longer a growth industry.
We’ve (the people following climate science) known this forever. Anyone expressing surprise at this has clearly not been paying attention or has only paid attention to one side.
I think Richard Lindzen summed it up best, starting at 2:50:30
Yes. When I was reading Physics at Oxford, everyone who planned to stay in science wanted jobs in Astrophysics, Particle Physics, Nuclear Physics, or the other sexy areas. Climate Science was for the ‘special ed’ students; though, admittedly, the ‘special ed’ students at Oxford were probably smarter than most at the average British university.
RW Turner: I think your purpose here was to suggest that the science is settled “just listen to these reasonable sounding guys” who wrote the IPCC assessment but I think that it is interesting that they threw out Mann and the hockey stick pretty unceremoniously not wanting to be held back by “errors” made 20 years ago. That’s a pretty dramatic statement!
The summary of this video of a UK parliamentary enquiry, is that THE SCIENCE IS NOT SETTLED. I think it would have been helpful if the MPs had pointed this out to the scientists. In fact, far from being settled at 30 min or so it seems as if they are making it all up as they go along.
Well I is not too surprising. If you read any financial news items, you don’t find a great number of IPOs for entrepreneurial climate control investment opportunities.
Not a lot of job openings in industry for people who understand that CO2 is a green house gas.
And with 65% of US University PhD grads in Physics, being doomed to a life as a post doc fellow at some institution, because nobody will pay them to work on the subject of their chosen doctoral thesis, it seems that there is not a big call for climate “scientists” to help entrepeneurs create jobs for people, or useful products either.
There’s not a lot of job openings for people with expertise in ‘ethnic studies’ , aka racism either. Yet people still get degrees in that or political “science”.
Well I think we can’t simply brand all people working in that field as “less than useful.”
The credible prediction of significant weather events is of considerable social and economic importance.
The entire cost of the US moon landing program, was recouped in less time than the project took, because of the reduction in crop losses enabled by improved advance weather forecasting. That came about because of the need to maintain round the globe communication with orbiting vehicles, and round the globe weather watching.
A robot space program, sans astronauts would have required none of that network.
And who among us thinks that the remote sensing programs that RSS and UAH rely on for their data gathering are not of great value.
I’m one skeptic who places a lot of credibility in the information that we get as a consequence of what John Christy, and Roy Spencer do, along the with the folks at RSS.
We need to support those folks, because they are the ones who bring sanity in the midst of the chaos, and they are putting their career reputations up on the target board as well.
I think your summation is absolutely correct. If I was choosing a career, climate science would be the last one I would choose even though I thoroughly enjoy it as an outsider.
In fact, I doubt you could even get a PhD these days if you questioned any of the current dogma.
My guess is what India is missing is true scientific researchers in the climastrology field.
If India really wants more climate change research I’m certain the US has a major abundance of the idiots they seek at our universities like Penn State, Stanford, Columbia, NYU etc.
I’m willing to accept the loss if most of them move to India.
Come now, no reason to insult astrologers, who do at least know how to work out planetary motions correctly.
And what have you got against India?
I get it. After reaping the benefits of the brain drain from places like India, you want to add insult to injury by sending them all our intellectual dead-beats. That’s really twisting the knife.
“””””…..
rw
April 20, 2015 at 12:31 pm
I get it. After reaping the benefits of the brain drain from places like India, you want to add insult to injury by sending them all our intellectual dead-beats. …..”””””
So what is your evidence for this “brain drain from places like India,”
I think if you look at the facts, you will find that many of these “drained brains” are in fact US educated persons who came here on “student visas”, which are supposed to educate them so they can go back and raise the educational level of their own country.
But instead they choose to play the system, aided and abetted by the high tech slave traders, who agitate for ever more H1B visas, to circumvent the student visa program, so they can keep these folks here working for sub par wages, since the worker doesn’t own the H1B visa; the company does.
If you are wanting already educated immigrants with demonstrated capabilities (that you can’t find locally), then why not simply give them real green card permanent resident status visas, so they can immigrate to the USA, as free persons, instead of being indebted to the Zuckerburgs and Gates’s of silicon valley.
There are plenty of USA residents and citizens well qualified to fill these jobs but H1B slaves will work for cheap until they have their anchor baby permanent resident ticket.
American citizens are being scammed, and would be immigrants are being short circuited by the H1B claim jumpers.
Anybody who wants to freely employ the services of skilled workers from wherever they might be on earth, can simply contract for the services of the companies that these “entrepeneurs” are supposedly good at forming, You can hire working people anywhere on earth, without transporting them to someplace else.
The so-called “brain drain” is actually a population export policy of those countries that have already overpopulated their own ability to feed their citizens; so they export them to whoever they can get to take them.
Brains don’t have to be in specific locations to do useful work.
Simple solution …
Take climate studies out of the Schools of Science and move it
into the Schools of Government/Politics … no intelligence required.
Agree 100 %
+1
Brandon Gates hardest hit…
Naw. I sold out a long time ago. The choice was grad school or private sector manufacturing at a salary comparable to what post-docs I had been working with were making. I took the money.
and here i thought Climate Scientists were all making the BIG $$$’s from all those gubmint grants? hmmmmmm ….
A top research scientist easily makes more than I do, but most PhDs are not top research scientists. Getting a doctorate isn’t cheap either, and takes at least double the amount of time I spent in college. In terms of financial return, I’m quite happy with my decision.
I thought it was part of Railway Engineering? 🙂
Historically a sub-school of the military industrial complex.
Certainly not. That’s an honourable profession (o.k., there’s a few exceptions …).
No, no. School of Religion, definitely. Do I hear an amen?
In a deliciously ironic sort of way, yes.
OMG … no, no, no !! You think it’s bad enough trying to criticize the field now? Just image the nightmare if it could wrap itself in the 1st amendment as a special religion … it’ll be as bad as criticizing Islam … or worse … Hillary Clinton.
Just picture Al Gore going back to Divinity School to finish his studies … it boggles the mind.
Leon,
“Oh – the humanities!”
Better, teach climate “science” in the Department of Comparative Religion
I understand most universities that offer degrees in “climate science” have placed it in their geography departments.
That alone indicates it isn’t considered a hard science by most academicians. Placing it in their Schools of Government/Politics is perhaps where it rightly belongs.
Actually Rocky, The Geography Department, is exactly where the study of climate should take place. Climate is certainly to a large extent a consequence of Geography.
Actually it and Economics should be under Social Sciences as they are all part and parcel of voodoo science to run the world.
Well It just so happens that just today, I had a couple of interesting trips to IRiSS at Stanford University in Palo Alto Ca.
My wife was attending a seminar there with educational researchers from all over the USA. All mucky mucks with doctorates and fellows falling all over the place.
Oh ! it stands for Institute for Research in the Social Sciences.
The bulletin board had the research resumes of all of the docs and fellows (izzat the same as “chaps” ?) and visiting scholars. Not students mind you, but Scholars. One of the Professors invited me to take her place at the barbecue, which had flowing wine and spare ribs from “Armadillo Willys.” I don’t know if the spare ribs were road kill or not.
Anyway, the resumes of these scholar doc fellows , at least the abstract, all read like entries for the Bullwer Lytton Prize contest. Gobbledegook all the way down with plenty of obligatory “robusts” sprinkled here and there.
On of the head researchers in “Race and Inequality” claims that you can actually change your race over time. So just as you can choose from a list of 57 genders or sexes for the US Census folks, you apparently can select from a growing list of races. Now SHe didn’t have anything to say about race and equality, so I presume that inequality is required in order to have a race.
Well 20 minutes after we left, my wife was unable to explain just what the seminar was about. She’s a bilingual Spanish English grade school teacher.
It is in a very nice quiet location out in the boonies, and there were Jack rabbits and deer running around in the parking lot.
No I’m not going to tell you if I saw a Mountain Lion in the parking lot.
So these assembled mucky mucks also included people from industries like video teaching equipment suppliers; all trying to tie up contracts I presume.
But we had fish and chips, sans newsprint, instead of staying for the barbecue on the Professor’s ticket.
Yes Physics, and Climate Science are not alone in creating fellows and docs, and maybe chaps too all searching for grant moneys.
g
Credentialed to destroy the hors d’oeuvres.
================
I would add advertising and marketing to my studies and a psychiatry course or two as well.
No wonder faced with the choice working for the Beano or being a climate “scientist”.
Well the Beano is more honest, more rewarding and benefits mankind more – easy choice!
And Beano actually can control methane gas emissions!
http://www.beanogas.com/
I’ve told any number of younger people don’t get into any environmental program, that their future comes with an expiry date.
Those are those little interactions that can have a profoundly positive impact on young peoples’ lives.
In today’s economy, where people change careers 3 or 4 times on average, every program has a best-before date. Environmentalism, for good or ill, appears to be with us for longer than most.
I guess what I was getting at was funding for climate science will dry up after the next realistic President is sworn in. Once that happens we won’t hear much about climate anymore.
Witness one John Cook who started out in physics ( BSc w 1st Class Honours) and got employment as a web designers for 12 years or so, drifted/wandered into climate alarm advocacy/’communications’ as ‘Webmaster, Skeptical Science, Qld, Australia’ gets gigs as an ‘Adjunct Lecturer, University of Western Australia’ and ‘Climate Change Communication Fellow, Global Change Institute, Australiia’ and is now doing a PhD in cognitive psychology under the thrall of La Lewandowsky ( who is now in the UK)
I have seen puppies loose at the park showing more focus and method as they piddle on every tree trunk and sniff every canine derriere in sight.
Judging by his latest Youtube video for his upcoming “MOOC” project ( enrolments open 28th April folks) and much other material in the public domain it seems to me that, for his own mental health, he should perhaps have stuck to physics, he was obviously reasonably good at it. Perhaps too little chance of public adulation and cheap academic bling though and maybe that is the nub of it. People who are into physics, chemistry and maths are generally not your show pony type. On the other hand ‘climate science’ is somewhere that narcissists can just ‘come out’ so to speak and declare that its not about the ‘science’ for them, its just about ‘them’ and being part of a recognised ‘Team’..
I worked for one of the most liberal colleges in the US. I had students in the Climate Sciences come to me with stories about how their research had shown that a particular aspect of climate change was not correct. Their supervising professor would tell them that it would not be published until they went back and found “better” results. Each year about 50% of the students transferred out of the climate sciences into another area, some left the school altogether. Generally the students who left were the smarter and more motivated students. The ones that remained were generally the marginal students who found a way to get “better” results in their research.
So… the good students didn’t want to dedicate their lives to poor science and bs. What a surprise.
On one of my courses, I was asked to research how global warming was causing more hurricanes, etc. When I submitted my essay, I was given a really low grade. The lowest I’d ever had. I’m sure you can guess the reason why. It was because my research showed that GW had not caused any increase in hurricanes at all. It was thanks to this episode that I began to question the whole GW thing. Until then, I hadn’t really thought about it.
“The ones that remained were generally the marginal students…”
Gee that sounds just like the current crop of climate extremists. Which explains why they are stuck in the “program” because for them there is no place else to go.
There’s always somewhere else to go.
It’s the methods that are at fault, not the students who follow the best they can.
Ahhh, but they (climate extremists/not the students) have to have the mental acuity/ability to do so, and with the sorry models and science they put out, that is not at all evident.
Indeed – WalMart is always looking for new ‘greeters’….
Mac:
Actually, Walmart no longer uses greeters. Quality of “climate scientists” applicants musta been too low…
Perhaps it is even more straightforward. I’d like to believe that the vast majority of scientists are unwilling to manipulate or falsify data. Perhaps a lot of climate research is producing data with the “wrong” answers. The scientists know that a paper reaching the “wrong” conclusion won’t be published, but they are unwilling to fudge the data. Therefore, they simply don’t publish.
I am often reminded why the Soviet Union had such great minds in the hard sciences — Mathematics and Engineering, for example, and so many mushy thinkers were in the soft “social” sciences. Even the USSR couldn’t think of a way to politicize 2 + 2. But the social sciences were slaves to Soviet ideology.
Why bother when we all know now that the science is settled.
+1
I would rather do real science thank you. If I wanted to do fake science I would get a degree in political science. The only bad thing about this is that the climate scientists of tomorrow are likely to be even more subpar than the climate scientists of today, so things might get worse before they get better.
“political science”
This is an oxymoron, sullying the good name and reputation of science.
Climate science has become the oxymoron.
-or should that be a carboxymoron?
All I know is that Gore is a boron.
Given the way Al Gore jumped on AGW as a financial ‘golden goose’, I think it more likely he is a ‘lepton’!
Fusion is still interesting. And difficult. The difficulty is not the physics It is the engineering. Just the place for a lab guy. I like Polywell Fusion.
So how do you propose to do the engineering of fusion, if the physics says it may not even be possible on a planetary size body. CONTROLLED that is !
A promising indication that this lie is finally beginning to fade away.
The writing is not only on the blackboard; it’s on the wall.
as universities are all about admission and retention now –
the Art Department within the College of Climate could offer
a major in graffiti
Surely the fact that there is a shortage of good Climate Scientists is old news? Hasn’t it been the case for at least 25 years?
My thoughts exactly.
Yes but in climate it take a minimum of 30 years to find out that nothing much is happening.
There are no jobs in either climate or meteorology any more, especially if you are not a climate modeler. I work from observations. Because the observations don’t support the politics, I was not welcome in the field. Now work in insurance solving real problems using real data. Should have done it years ago.
There always has been a shortage of GOOD scientists in this field.
I would submit that those people who beat the CAGW drum aren’t scientists at all.
The Economic Times reports that there is a profound shortage of scientists …
Well of course there is. There is a profound lack of science, so what do they expect?
Surely the Economic Times has heard of Gresham’s Law? Well, it applies to climate scientists, too. Bad ones drive good ones out of circulation.
“I was surprised to learn that shortage of good climate scientists is a global problem,”
For once one can while heartedly agree.
Climate scientists there are, but very few good ones…..
the organisers have received too few quality abstracts of papers for the conference. The message is quite clear: not enough people work on climate change in India.
===============
Wrong. That is not what is being shown. What is being shown is what rates as “quality abstracts” by the organizers.
Climate papers are low quality because first and foremost they must be Politically Correct. Otherwise they will not get published, because previous publishers have been sacked for publishing Climate papers that were Politically Incorrect.
Science has taken a backseat to Political Correctness. As a result there is very little science being practiced. Instead what we see are affirmation studies. Scientists searching for examples that uphold the politically correct view and publishing this as “science”, in return for continued financing.
If one searches long enough, one can always find positive examples of wrong-headed ideas. That is how superstition and pseudo-science develops. Someone does a dance and it rain, therefore the dancing caused the rain. Frogs die in massive numbers globally, proof that the climate is changing. A computer says it is so, it must be so. The Oracle of Delphi replaced by the Oracle of Intel.
Good point, but I have a slightly different take on ‘quality’. Do we know the attitude of the organizers? Perhaps there were too many papers shading into doubt, and that was what was determined to be ‘not enough quality’.
===============
Heh, maybe TERI was too demoralized to flood the conference with propaganda.
============
The authors analysis at the end of the article is “just the facts”.
If you had to work with or under Michael Mann, would you be running to sign up for climatology?
But wait, weather is climate! Now more than ever people are needed to make up crap.
http://www.climatecentral.org/what-we-do/our-programs/climate-science#wwa
New Project: World Weather Attribution
Climate Central is pleased to announce a new initiative called World Weather Attribution that will seek to perform “extreme weather autopsies” immediately after an extreme weather event occurs, when the world’s media is still asking “was this event caused by climate change?” With our partner at Oxford University’s Environmental Change Institute, we are working on a tool that will look at the role of global warming in extreme weather events around the globe — not months later, as has been the case; but in real-time using the citizen science distributed infrastructure climateprediction.net.
The insurance industry will love it.
“We regret to inform you that your claim for storm damage repair to your roof has been disallowed as that particular weather event has now been identified as having been man-made. Might we take this opportunity to offer you the opportunity to upgrade your insurance cover at a special discount rate so that you are insured against future losses which are attributable to climate change. This will only cost you double what you have already been paying.”
I have a confession to make. Because Steve’s comment was not in quotes I thought he was paraphrasing the announcement, putting into his comment a wide-spread (and understandable) bias highlighting the ridiculous nature of weather extreme attribution. So I clicked on Steve’s link to read what I thought might be a more reasonable announcement devoid of the bias we bear. I owe Steve a heartfelt apology.
Lordy.
If you actually read the announcement at the very end they are especially hopeful for a once in fifty year and once in a hundred year events to study (presumably since a single occurrence will allow a “human fingerprint” lynch mob to be incited).
“extreme weather autopsies”
Josh! Where are you!!!
It’s dead, Jim!
https://youtu.be/r0yXqU-w9U0
Is that tool one M Mann?
As a meteorologist and weather analyst, I can say that I have only met a few climate modelers capable of dissecting weather events. None of them work at Climate Central.
It would be like studying to be an automotive engineer then settling for a job selling used cars. Who can blame them.
Nice analogy
Avoiding climate studies makes sense; a young person is preparing for a hopefully trouble-free career over the course of 30-40 years. Thus he or she should be careful of boom-bust (financial-type) fields and should avoid fields that are full of controversy and also may be mixed up with politics for an indefinite period.
Ah but what fields are more full of controversy than particle physics and cosmology where all these bright young people want to go? It’s not controversy, it’s something else which I think has already been identified above.
Honesty.
That’s what’s lacking in a good portion of “climate science”.
If they can’t cut it in climatism, Lumbersexual Studies is just down the hall.
Good one Max. That’s what I like most about WUWT; I learn something new everyday. I’m not sure if it’s that I know so little, or that the content here is so broad?
Those don’t look like broads to me!
Here is an article that is as profound as it is amusing …
Meet the Lumbersexual: He’s Part Hipster, Part Metrosexual, All Sartorial Man
http://blogs.citypages.com/dressingroom/2015/03/meet_the_lumbersexual_hes_part_hipster_part_metrosexual_all_sartorial_man.php
http://s3.amazonaws.com/policymic-images/7wyvsz5leusoqo8ld7ssv8zzgwj2fcsf9m3wq12iavgdj8kmcrooshwapth0iokz.jpg
Wow, I never realized it was such a complex ecosystem.
Here’s the effort vs polish matrix:
http://thetangential.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Lumbersexual-Infographic-A.jpg
Here’s the authenticity matrix: the perceived likelihood of each guy rolling his sleeves, getting his hands dirty, and “doing.”
http://thetangential.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Lumbersexual-Infographic-B.jpg
So it really is “Maxine” 🙂
Are those pictures of dildoclimatologists in their lab coats?
Do those guys sleep all night and work all day?
So scientists who disagree with the consensus are intimidated into silence. And new scientists who might disagree are discouraged from entering the field. Working as intended I would say.
Honesty and ethics; Those scientists whith those standards, won’t get involved in corrupt politcal endeavors.
Living as I do in the neighborhood of Bangalore it is not hard to understand why few graduate are attracted to climate studies: the regional climate has not changed for over 120 years. Also Indian newspapers/ channels till recently were not painted Green as in most of the West.
The science of phrenology suffered the same crash.
What a shame. They showed so much promise. I wonder what went wrong?
Skullduggery.
Something just didn’t feel right.
Phrenology was headed in the wrong direction. It’s main claims were bald lies mixed with hoary tales. One’s career path was bumpy once the fools were parted from their money. The whole thing was too fuzzy for the lumpen proletariat.
Bonk on the head, mean G’rup!
Brain scans to determine character traits are a new form of phrenology.
Mark Twain went to a Phrenologisi anonymously. He was informed that he had no sense of humor whatever.
He went back to the same guy a year later, and introduced himself as Mark Twain. The Phrenologist didn’r recall him from before. The second visit, the Phreologist told Mark Twain he had the most giant sense of humor he had ever encounterd.
For some reason that reminds me of ‘global warming causes global cooling’.
Say anything, right?