CEI Sues EPA Over Stonewalling Records Request

WASHINGTON, April 9 –  Today, the Competitive Enterprise Institute filed a lawsuit against the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to compel the agency to produce text messages sent by government officials, as required by the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). In December 2013, CEI requested the text message correspondence associated with a handful of top EPA officials and current Administrator Gina McCarthy when she was in charge of plans to regulate or tax carbon dioxide.

EPA previously acknowledged destroying all of Ms. McCarthy’s copies of her text message correspondence on her EPA-assigned account. This request sought her EPA colleagues’ copies, which EPA has stonewalled.

“This lawsuit challenges, yet another in a pattern of EPA, moves to block access to public records,” said CEI Senior Fellow Christopher Horner. “CEI’s FOIA request will reveal whether each and every one of Ms. McCarthy’s text messages to EPA colleagues were indeed ‘personal’, as the EPA has claimed to somehow excuse their wholesale destruction, or whether EPA has been destroying copies of officials’ use of this alternative to email. Under the law, there is no distinction between the two. If the latter is the case, it is unimaginable that EPA can proceed with its agenda without reconstructing the widespread document destruction and restoring the legally required record.”

Note: The core of lawsuit is EPA’s erratic application of statutorily provided fee waivers, which as Horner has documented previously, the agency has been far more likely to deny for certain right-of-center groups. (See: Congressmen demand end to EPA’s IRS-like bias against conservative, state/local FOIA requestors.)

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62 Responses to CEI Sues EPA Over Stonewalling Records Request

  1. EPA, the center of the evil cult. Send spys into the center, report the truth to the web.
    The U.S. Justice Dept. is the defender of this evil lie machine.

  2. Taphonomic says:

    Most. Transparent. Administration. Ever.

    Not.

  3. Ronald says:

    Would be nice to have a insider to bring the data out. Makes it a lot faster. But now they blockt the data you cane know for sure there is something wrong whit it. Why would someone block data that is oke?

  4. Rud Istvan says:

    If the IRS fiasco is any guide, the lawsuit won’t go very far very fast. What is needed is Congressional inquiry.

  5. chris says:

    Why is it that predominantly left leaning groups are so darned secretive, seemingly hateful of transparency, and generally authoritarian in nature?

  6. James Ard says:

    Rud Istvan, I didn’t see a sarc tag, but surely the congressional inquiry comment was a joke. Which scandal has John Boehner allowed any of his congressional committees to get to the bottom of? Did you see Holder thumbing his nose at congressmen yesterday with no ramifications whatsoever?

  7. “Congressional inquiry?” More specifically, what is needed is a Congressional select committee with subpoena power backed up by a truly independent special investigator. Sadly, the likelihood we’ll get either is slim to none, especially while this Administration is in power. if we ever hope to find out and see any justice done on these and more issues, we’ll need to pay particular attention and act accordingly in the coming elections. Any reprise of 2012 will ensure it doesn’t happen.

  8. Joe Public says:

    Can’t they just ask the NSA for them?

  9. In UK there is a saying that government agencies use to snoop on us; “You have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide.” You probably have a similar one in the USA?
    Totally different when the boot is on the other foot; the left foot of course!

  10. Colorado Wellington says:

    Joe Public says:
    April 9, 2014 at 9:40 am

    Can’t they just ask the NSA for them?

    And Putin’s got them from Snowden. May be be easier to get than prying them out of EPA.

  11. Katou says:

    No need to look behind the curtain Dorthy …Every thin is just the way we say it is …I am convinced that the cart is indeed ahead of the horse but it’s not a horse that is pushing the cart but the Trilateral Commission with their front group The CFR ….http://www.augustforecast.com/ it looks like the duck ,walks like the duck , but for some reason sounds like a Loone ….peace

  12. John Whitman says:

    The ‘green’ ideology (based on CAGW non-science) is promoted by Holdren who is whispering intentional exaggerations in a gullible President’s ear, who in turn through the EPA, bypasses our representatives Congress.

    I am embarrassed as a US citizen.

    Go CEI!!

    John

  13. Duster says:

    chris says:
    April 9, 2014 at 9:27 am

    Why is it that predominantly left leaning groups are so darned secretive, seemingly hateful of transparency, and generally authoritarian in nature?

    It really isn’t just the “left” listing. Any group whose members are convinced they know how things should be in some area of life, and also believes that there is a great “need” to initiate or protect that state of being, runs to authoritarian attitudes in its members, regardless of whether it is the Communist Party or the Tea Party, Democrats or Republicans. You may have noticed that whenever the national list shifts to port or starboard that there isn’t any rush to make things “right” by easing the always tighter control that the state is granted over the individual.

    Kipling wrote about this in “MacDonough’s Song” just over a century ago. It identifies arguments about war, abortion, the tyranny of religion, the right to weapons, and the malefic influence of state-funded academics and was published in 1912. Kipling’s only suggested solution was pretty much to defenestrate anyone who wanted to tell others how they should behave in public and in private. So, over 100 years with no discernible improvements – anywhere.

  14. Navy Bob says:

    Chris – that’s like saying, “Why is it that volcanoes are so darned hot?” Secretive, opaque authoritarianism is the essence of leftism – see Kim Jong-un, Chavez, Pol Pot, Castro, Ortega, Honecker, Ceausescu, Stalin, Mao, Hitler & Mussolini (socialists for those who object they were righties), Lenin, Bakunin, Robespierre, etc., etc.

  15. chris said:
    April 9, 2014 at 9:27 am
    Why is it that predominantly left leaning groups are so darned secretive, seemingly hateful of transparency, and generally authoritarian in nature?
    ————
    They must do in order to perpetrate their agenda. They cannot otherwise prevail.

  16. philjourdan says:

    Sadly, while the CEI has a case, Obama has the judges and DOJ. Nothing will come of it.

  17. Canadian Mike says:

    Cut their budget 5% per month until they can “locate” the requested information.

  18. PeteJ says:

    If you get EPA’s attention can you ask them if they intend to reduce their chapter 7.4 Regulatory Impact Analysis (RIA) from 2010 that lead them to conclude that projected atmospheric reductions on the order of 2.9 ppm CO2 by 2100 will result in a global mean temperature reduction of 0.006 to 0.015C and sea-level rise reduction of 0.06 to 0.14 cm from their GHG rule now that the IPCC came out with a new “report”?

  19. Mac the Knife says:

    It’s about damn time!
    Let’s support them…… and the contributions ARE tax deductible! From their website:
    CEI is a non-partisan, educational and research institute operating under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code. CEI accepts no government grants or contracts, nor do we have an endowment. Contributions to our efforts are tax-deductible.

    http://cei.org/donate

    Mac

  20. Bill Parsons says:

    “This lawsuit challenges, yet another in a pattern of EPA, moves to block access to public records,” said CEI Senior Fellow Christopher Horner. “CEI’s FOIA request will reveal whether each and every one of Ms. McCarthy’s text messages to EPA colleagues were indeed ‘personal’, as the EPA has claimed to somehow excuse their wholesale destruction, or whether EPA has been destroying copies of officials’ use of this alternative to email.

    The EPA is clearly a cozier gang than the IRS, their mission pretty well delineated by their title. Moreover, Lois Lerner set the transparency bar by refusing to answer any questions, invoking her fifth amendment rights. Corporate-related E-mails are still trickling in to the select committee as the IRS lackeys vet the ones they want to share, and the new commissioner, Mr. Koskinen, has promised his full cooperation:

    If you want them all, we’ll give them all to you,” though he said it would take years to do so.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/27/us/politics/house-republican-accuses-irs-head-of-stonewalling.html?_r=0

    I didn’t notice anybody laughing aloud during that congressional inquiry – but they might as well have been. I’d vote for contacting Snowden. Anybody have e-mail address?

    WRT the passage above… you might check a few of your comma placements.

  21. Mac the Knife says:

    philjourdan says:
    April 9, 2014 at 10:50 am
    Sadly, while the CEI has a case, Obama has the judges and DOJ. Nothing will come of it.

    Phil,
    If you do nothing, it is a certainty that “Nothing will come of it.”
    We must each be part of the fight to wrest control of our country from these crony socialists! Failure to fight them right now means the corruption continues without end.

    Gads! How I have come to detest that fatalist ‘do nothing’ form of useless, whining resignation to political malfeasance!

    Stand UP, Man! Fight Back!!!
    Mac

  22. Santa Baby says:

    The U.S. Justice Dept. is the defender of the EPA efforts to promote UNEP international Marxism?

  23. cjshaker says:

    President John F. Kennedy Speaks about this issue

  24. richardscourtney says:

    Mac the Knife:
    At April 9, 2014 at 12:13 pm you say

    philjourdan says:
    April 9, 2014 at 10:50 am

    Sadly, while the CEI has a case, Obama has the judges and DOJ. Nothing will come of it.

    Phil,
    If you do nothing, it is a certainty that “Nothing will come of it.”
    We must each be part of the fight to wrest control of our country from these crony socialists! Failure to fight them right now means the corruption continues without end.

    Gads! How I have come to detest that fatalist ‘do nothing’ form of useless, whining resignation to political malfeasance!

    Stand UP, Man! Fight Back!!!
    Mac

    Mac the Knife,
    If you misidentify the problem, it is a certainty that “Nothing will come of it.”

    You are promoting the wrong fight.

    Many (most?) of those promoting AGW are capitalists ‘milking’ the system for subsidies for ‘renewables’. The problem is the corruption. Political philosophies are not relevant.

    Oppose the corruption and avoid allowing your political prejudices from hindering that opposition, or continue to promote your prejudice and fail to oppose the corruption..

    Richard

  25. philjourdan says:

    @Bill Parsons – it is now official – Lois Lerner has been referred for criminal prosecution. But then Holder was held in contempt, so I do not expect anything to come of it.

    http://republicanleaderforms.house.gov/Components/Redirect/r.aspx?ID=417523-12486548

  26. philjourdan says:

    @MtK – I agree! Sorry my post came off sounding like I was not going to fight. But I have no faith that the republicans in congress are going to. And definitely not the democrats.

  27. Tom in Florida says:

    Chris says:
    April 9, 2014 at 9:27 am
    “Why is it that predominantly left leaning groups are so darned secretive, seemingly hateful of transparency, and generally authoritarian in nature?”

    Because their ideology cannot stand on it’s own in front of freedom loving people.

  28. Lil Fella from OZ says:

    Money produces transparency. Always!@?

  29. Truth Disciple says:

    Wouldn’t a Special Prosecutor been the appropriate action bypassing the Holder “Justice” Department.
    Recently a small Canadian town was confronted with a problem when a huge snow pack was still in place when the Grizzes came out of hibernation. No Spring vegetation meant no food resulting in a town invasion, and the obvious “danger Will Robinson”.
    When the animals don’t FEAR the population the only choice left was an early hunting season.
    Just sayin. :–).

  30. John Whitman says:

    richardscourtney says:
    April 9, 2014 at 1:27 pm

    Mac the Knife:
    At April 9, 2014 at 12:13 pm you say

    philjourdan says:
    April 9, 2014 at 10:50 am

    Sadly, while the CEI has a case, Obama has the judges and DOJ. Nothing will come of it.

    Phil,
    If you do nothing, it is a certainty that “Nothing will come of it.”
    We must each be part of the fight to wrest control of our country from these crony socialists! Failure to fight them right now means the corruption continues without end.
    Gads! How I have come to detest that fatalist ‘do nothing’ form of useless, whining resignation to political malfeasance!
    Stand UP, Man! Fight Back!!!
    Mac

    Mac the Knife,
    If you misidentify the problem, it is a certainty that “Nothing will come of it.”
    You are promoting the wrong fight.
    Many (most?) of those promoting AGW are capitalists ‘milking’ the system for subsidies for ‘renewables’. The problem is the corruption. Political philosophies are not relevant.
    Oppose the corruption and avoid allowing your political prejudices from hindering that opposition, or continue to promote your prejudice and fail to oppose the corruption..
    Richard

    – – – – – – – – –

    Mac the Knife, philjourdan & richardscourtney,

    The CEI’s context of conservative versus liberal democrat (eg – strongly socialist leaning) for the lead post is this link to a Washington Examiner article. “(See: Congressmen demand end to EPA’s IRS-like bias against conservative, state/local FOIA requestors )”

    That stated context by CEI means that ‘Mac the Knife’ does have the right intellectual battle per se.

    It is the right intellectual battle that is the intent of the lead article by CEI, sure, though I prefer a less emotive and less imprecise concepts for the context of the intellectual battle. I prefer the concepts of the ethical basis of collectivism versus those that are the ethical basis of individualism. I think it is a more precise conceptual intro that is needed before entering the politics around the issue of EPA and CAGW ideology.

    John

  31. wsbriggs says:

    People “milking the system” aren’t Capitalists, regardless of how they designate themselves. Europe is still in the grip of Feudalism, and we’ve devolved into a variant of Mercantlism. There is no “ethical basis of collectivism,” any system which relies on forcing individuals to do that which they would not otherwise willingly do is not an ethical system. Volitional exchange of values is the only ethical system. Everything else is theft.

  32. John Whitman says:

    {all bold emphasis mine – JW}

    wsbriggs says:
    April 9, 2014 at 3:54 pm

    People “milking the system” aren’t Capitalists, regardless of how they designate themselves. Europe is still in the grip of Feudalism, and we’ve devolved into a variant of Mercantlism. There is no “ethical basis of collectivism,” any system which relies on forcing individuals to do that which they would not otherwise willingly do is not an ethical system. Volitional exchange of values is the only ethical system. Everything else is theft.

    – – – – – – – – –

    wsbriggs,

    If you mean that all fundamental concepts supporting collectivism are claimed to justified only by irrational / supernatural (dual reality) philosophies, then I agree with your statement.

    NOTE: It is important to note that there are many irrational philosophies that claim collectivism is morally good for any individually reasoning beings (claiming that it is rational). That is the problem that intellectually must be addressed by reasoning individualists.

    John

  33. mpcraig says:

    What do you think the odds are of this being a “sue and settle” case?

  34. mpcraig says:

    Sue and settle?

  35. Cj@12:45 thank you ! What a great speech from a great president. Wonder if mr the debate is over
    Has heard it. I doubt it.

  36. Mac the Knife says:

    richardscourtney says:
    April 9, 2014 at 1:27 pm

    Richard,
    You can use your definition of the ‘benevolent and kind’ socialist, if it suits your personal beliefs and political needs in the old country. We are not ‘buying it’ anymore, here in The States.

    We have a ‘malevolent kind of socialist’ here in the US of A that is rotting the very foundation of civil society, with selective enforcement of our laws and determined erosion of our constitutionally guaranteed individual rights. Note: Those rights were not enumerated as ‘collective’ rights, but specifically as ‘individual rights’. We rejected collectivism at the very founding of our country… and we reject it emphatically today. Socialists in this country are using the AGW meme as a front, to destroy individualism and force all Americans to accept collectivism. Control of the land, water, and air through the EPA effectively controls all private enterprise and privately held property in the US and ‘collectively’ abrogates individual property rights. The EPA has become one of the big government facades that corrupt socialism hides behind. The law breaking, corrupt, always-grasping-for-what-they-didn’t-earn socialists and their force-you-to-participate-for-your-own-good collectivism must be confronted and defeated, lest this country cease to exist as a nation of free citizens. I have correctly identified the true root cause of the disease and am working assiduously to effect true corrective actions. If I didn’t say that with sufficient clarity, I’ll try to do better next time.

    You are demonstrably incorrect in the definition and usage of the term ‘capitalist’. Capitalists advocate individual rights, private enterprise, small government, and laissez-faire markets. Socialists advocate collective rights, big intrusive government, and government ‘regulated’ markets, to ‘promote fairness’. They advocate market ‘subsidies’ (redistribution of wealth) to provide ‘social justice’ to producers of goods and services that are not competitive in free markets. Given that, let’s correct your misstatement above: “Many (most?) of those promoting AGW are crony socialists ‘milking’ the system for subsidies for ‘renewables’.

    I respect and appreciate your other contributions to the WUWT discussions, Richard. However, you will have to learn… and to appreciate.. that not everyone agrees with your socialist perspectives and prejudices.

    Respectfully,
    Mac

  37. Barbara says:

    Seems none of the federal agencies fear Congress anymore.
    Could a grand jury be employed to investigate agencies such as the EPA?

  38. Jeff Alberts says:

    “This lawsuit challenges, yet another in a pattern of EPA, moves to block access to public records,”

    Personal Foul! Illegal use of commas in a public statement! 15 yards, replay first down!

  39. _Jim says:

    An unresponsive agency of the federal government? Say it isn’t so!

  40. _Jim says:

    re: Barbara says April 9, 2014 at 5:57 pm
    Seems none of the federal agencies fear Congress anymore.

    Congress is toothless, as are many of their non-term-limited elected-for-life (it seems; anyone remember the ‘Kennedy seat’ in Taxachussets?) members …

    Remember the <a href="Liberty Amendments! ( Restoring the American Republic)

    .

  41. _Jim says:

    For those so inclined, one may read chapter 1 of the book The Liberty Amendments on-line at the link below::

    http://citadelcc.vo.llnwd.net/o29/network/Levin/hosted_files/LibertyAmendmentsCh1.pdf

    .

  42. john robertson says:

    A parasite is gonna do what a parasite has to do.
    Never mind your ideology, can you add? Ron Paul, I think.
    The EPA is government, bureaucratic creep by design.
    If government acts as if adherence to the law is optional, then taxes are voluntary.
    If government wilfully breeches contracts, citizens have no moral responsibility to honour regulations imposed by government.
    The parasites always assume they are powerful, until the citizens correct their delusions.
    We taxpayers are better served by putting these fools and bandits out of government and onto welfare.

  43. Barbara says:

    When any federal agency refuses to turn over documents to Congress isn’t that an indication of corruption in that agency? Thus the need for a grand jury investigation. Exception would be national security information to unauthorized elected Congress persons.

  44. Mario Lento says:

    James Ard says:
    April 9, 2014 at 9:36 am
    Rud Istvan, I didn’t see a sarc tag, but surely the congressional inquiry comment was a joke. Which scandal has John Boehner allowed any of his congressional committees to get to the bottom of? Did you see Holder thumbing his nose at congressmen yesterday with no ramifications whatsoever?
    ++++++++++
    “You don’t want to go there –BUDDY!” ***sarc***
    couldn’t resist!

  45. richardscourtney says:

    John Whitman:

    At April 9, 2014 at 1:27 pm I replied to Mac the Knife saying:

    Mac the Knife,
    If you misidentify the problem, it is a certainty that “Nothing will come of it.”
    You are promoting the wrong fight.

    Many (most?) of those promoting AGW are capitalists ‘milking’ the system for subsidies for ‘renewables’. The problem is the corruption. Political philosophies are not relevant.

    Oppose the corruption and avoid allowing your political prejudices from hindering that opposition, or continue to promote your prejudice and fail to oppose the corruption..

    You have responded at April 9, 2014 at 3:32 pm saying

    That stated context by CEI means that ‘Mac the Knife’ does have the right intellectual battle per se.

    Well, he can ‘tilt at windmills’ if he wants: an “intellectual battle” is narcissistic navel gazing.

    ‘Mac the Knife’ is suggesting a distraction – and you always support distractions – while the CEI is addressing the practical reality which is as I said, i.e.
    Oppose the corruption and avoid allowing your political prejudices from hindering that opposition, or continue to promote your prejudice and fail to oppose the corruption.

    Richard

  46. richardscourtney says:

    wsbriggs:

    Your post at April 9, 2014 at 3:54 pm says

    People “milking the system” aren’t Capitalists, regardless of how they designate themselves. Europe is still in the grip of Feudalism, and we’ve devolved into a variant of Mercantlism. There is no “ethical basis of collectivism,” any system which relies on forcing individuals to do that which they would not otherwise willingly do is not an ethical system.

    Say what!?

    Capitalism consists of individuals each acting to maximise personal gain: i.e. each acting to “milk the system”.

    Feudalism was abandoned throughout Europe centuries ago.

    “Any system which” does not rely “on forcing individuals to do that which they would not otherwise willingly do is” despicable; e.g. an ethical system forces criminal individuals to accept the Rule OF Law.

    The CEI is acting to oppose corruption.
    Your post asserts that corruption is “ethical”.
    I support the actions of the CEI.

    Richard

  47. richardscourtney says:

    Mac the Knife:

    re your post addressed to me at April 9, 2014 at 5:42 pm.

    Please reflect on your untrue assertion of my “socialist prejudices” as being your only response to my rational explanation of why I advised you
    Oppose the corruption and avoid allowing your political prejudices from hindering that opposition, or continue to promote your prejudice and fail to oppose the corruption.

    Richard

  48. _Jim says:

    In the time period of the American revolution, I wonder which side Richard would assume: Tory (or, if you prefer: Loyalist, Royalist, or King’s Man) or Revolutionary?

    Have you read The Federalist Papers Richard? Furthermore, was America right to oppose the assumed ideology of the Axis Powers in WWII?

    And finally, are you familiar with the true story behind our Thanksgiving ‘celebration’ and remembrance (and what the Pilgrims learned from their ‘adventure’, i.e. the lesson of the Pilgrims’ experience with collectivism, socialism)?

    /rhetorical (mostly)

    .

  49. John Whitman says:

    {bold emphasis mine – JW}

    richardscourtney on April 10, 2014 at 5:07 am

    @John Whitman

    ‘Mac the Knife’ is suggesting a <b<distraction – and you always support distractions – while the CEI is addressing the practical reality which is as I said, i.e.
    Oppose the corruption and avoid allowing your political prejudices from hindering that opposition, or continue to promote your prejudice and fail to oppose the corruption.

    Richard

    – – – – – – – – – –

    richardscourtney,

    CEI’s offering was targeted for a political discussion, particularly on political suppression of info / ideas.. That was the context.

    Since all political systems must justify themselves morally to the populations they act on, it is ineffective to discuss their political nature without seeing clearly the ethical system they say they are based on in their PR. It likewise is necessary to analyze what their actual moral basis is in action versus what their moral PR says.

    Collectivist quasi-morality is the basis of socialism and is based on a group mentality toward values. Individualist human morality is based on man’s nature as a reasoning being as the source of values..

    Why do you think that is? What creates a collectivist (socialist) and what creates an individualist. I suggest the answer is in their metaphysical views. What do you think?

    John

  50. _Jim says:

    Submitted as relevant to the sub-topic under discussion here (socialism et al) –

    “Heaven on Earth The Rise and Fall of Socialism” with Ben Wattenberg

    .

  51. Barbara says:

    Some U.S. government agencies did become corrupt in the past and had to be cleaned-up.
    If this is the situation now then then an agency will have to be dealt with by the Congress or the people themselves.
    This is not a Democrat or Republican issue but an issue of corruption that affects all of the people.

  52. Mac the Knife says:

    richardscourtney says:
    April 10, 2014 at 5:24 am

    Richard,

    Please reflect on your untrue assertions about capitalism, your flawed perspectives on the ‘benign’ nature of socialism, and your ‘distraction’ from admitting you were wrong. I offer my correction of your flawed statement again, in the hope that you might yet learn from your mistakes.

    You are demonstrably incorrect in the definition and usage of the term ‘capitalist’. Capitalists advocate individual rights, private enterprise, small government, and laissez-faire markets. Socialists advocate collective rights, big intrusive government, and government ‘regulated’ markets, to ‘promote fairness’. They advocate market ‘subsidies’ (redistribution of wealth) to provide ‘social justice’ to producers of goods and services that are not competitive in free markets. Given that, let’s correct your misstatement above: “Many (most?) of those promoting AGW are crony socialists ‘milking’ the system for subsidies for ‘renewables’.

    Although this may be ’tilting at windmills’, a paraphrase of a quote from one of our greatest Presidents applies accurately here:
    “The trouble with our socialist friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so.”

    Respectfully,
    Mac

  53. richardscourtney says:

    Mac the Knife:

    your post at April 10, 2014 at 12:17 pm.

    I note that you again make a list of untrue assertions which have no relationship to reality then support an untrue assertion which says
    “The trouble with our socialist friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so.”

    And all this because I keep saying – and I again say –
    Oppose the corruption and avoid allowing your political prejudices from hindering that opposition, or continue to promote your prejudice and fail to oppose the corruption.

    I applaud the post from Barbara at April 10, 2014 at 8:45 am which says in total

    Some U.S. government agencies did become corrupt in the past and had to be cleaned-up.
    If this is the situation now then then an agency will have to be dealt with by the Congress or the people themselves.
    This is not a Democrat or Republican issue but an issue of corruption that affects all of the people.

    Barbara is right, and your promotion of your untrue prejudice distracts from the important point she iterates.

    Richard

  54. richardscourtney says:

    _Jim:

    Your personal questions to me at April 10, 2014 at 7:07 am have no relation to the topic of this thread and I refuse to assist your attempted distraction(s).

    Richard

  55. richardscourtney says:

    John Whitman:

    Your post at April 10, 2014 at 7:10 am only serves to display your ignorance of an off-topic subject on which you have chosen to pontificate. It is typical of all your posts and – as usual with your posts – I refuse to waste space in the thread by discussing it.

    Richard

  56. Mac the Knife says:

    richardscourtney says:
    April 10, 2014 at 1:30 pm

    Richard,

    Again I say please reflect on your untrue assertions about capitalism, your flawed perspectives on the ‘benign’ nature of socialism, and your ‘distraction’ from admitting you were wrong.

    Mac

  57. John Whitman says:

    {all bold emphasis mine – JW}

    richardscourtney says:
    April 10, 2014 at 1:38 pm

    @John Whitman:

    Your post at April 10, 2014 at 7:10 am only serves to display your ignorance of an off-topic subject on which you have chosen to pontificate. It is typical of all your posts and – as usual with your posts – I refuse to waste space in the thread by discussing it.

    Richard

    – – – – – – – – – –

    richardscourtney,

    Understanding in politics cannot be achieved by just studying politics, in your case you are only looking at the existing socialist politics and interpreting everything else by it.

    Instead consider an alternative approach. Understanding politics follows this kind of process: politics must have an ethical basis; ethics must have a basis in a view of the human condition; a view of the human condition must have a basis in a view of reality; a view of reality must have a basis in a way of knowing reality. We get to the essential determinants of politics.

    Politics understood that way can be stable and relatively un-contentious because it is becomes a non-emotional discussion of reality and how we get knowledge about reality. And also it is wonderful fun.

    John

  58. richardscourtney says:

    Mac the Knife:

    At April 10, 2014 at 1:42 pm you say to me

    Again I say please reflect on your untrue assertions about capitalism, your flawed perspectives on the ‘benign’ nature of socialism, and your ‘distraction’ from admitting you were wrong. </blockquote
    Firstly, I have made NO "untrue assertions about capitalism": I only stated (at April 10, 2014 at 5:19 am) the truth that

    Capitalism consists of individuals each acting to maximise personal gain: i.e. each acting to “milk the system”.

    Secondly, I know what socialism is: I am a socialist. You don’t know what socialism is or – if you do – then you lie about it.

    Thirdly, the only “distraction” was and is yours in that “socialism” is an irrelevance and a distraction from the subject of this thread.

    Importantly, the only “wrong” is your irrelevant distraction of this thread.
    Perhaps you would be willing to explain why you have attempted to divert attention from the admirable attempts of the CEI to oppose and correct corruption by the EPA?

    Richard

  59. richardscourtney says:

    John Whitman:

    re your post at April 10, 2014 at 3:36 pm .

    You did not need to say you think it is “fun” to distract threads with irrelevant, untrue and pointless tripe: anybody who has read your posts knows that.

    But you do need to learn that what you think to be “fun” is merely boorish.

    Richard

  60. richardscourtney says:

    Mac the Knife:

    I apologise for the formatting error in my post at April 11, 2014 at 4:20 am. The “</blockquote" should have been a 'close quote'. This has distorted the entire post.

    Sorry.

    Richard

  61. John Whitman says:

    richardscourtney says:
    April 11, 2014 at 4:24 am

    @John Whitman re your post at April 10, 2014 at 3:36 pm .

    You did not need to say you think it is “fun” to distract threads with irrelevant, untrue and pointless tripe: anybody who has read your posts knows that.

    But you do need to learn that what you think to be “fun” is merely boorish.

    Richard

    – – – – – – – – – – –

    richardscourtney,

    You have been begging the question wrt context and basis of politics (particularly your socialist politics), as I pointed out in my previous comment to you.

    Fun? I have had immense fun when reasoning for my whole personal and 40 year professional life. And I loved it. I am profoundly proud of it. I continue that tradition.

    Need I really provide you with countless quotes from writers, journalists, lawyers, skeptical blog owners, medical doctors, engineers, scientists, intellectuals, ancient philosophers and modern scholars who say their reasoning is fun for themselves in pursuing desires / goals / values?

    I think there is good reason to presume that many of the happiest people on Earth have been (are) those who are having fun in their reasoning when using it to pursuing desires / goals / values?

    On the other hand, “bending over backwards” in spirit of Feynman, sure there are those Kantian and post-Kantian supporters who might object. But even some of the Kantians and Post-Kantians could possibly accept my idea that reasoning and applied reasoning is fun.

    Personal Note: Richard, it does appear to me that you are not having fun for some time now.

    John

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