![golden-fleece-money-box[1]](http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/golden-fleece-money-box1.jpg?resize=320%2C241)
The Inaugural Golden Fleece Award – for Flagrant Fleecing of Community Resources
The Carbon Sense Coalition has awarded its Inaugural Golden Fleece Award to Kevin Rudd and coal industry leaders for “flagrant fleecing of community savings in futile ‘research’ on Carbon Capture & Sequestration – a costly and complex process designed to capture and bury carbon dioxide gas produced by burning carbon fuels such as coal, oil and gas”.
It is obviously possible, in an engineering sense, to collect, separate, compress, pump and pipe gases, so new “research” is largely a waste of money. Engineers know how to do these things, and their likely costs. But only foolish green zealots would think of spending billions to bury a harmless, invisible, life-supporting gas in hopes of cooling the climate some time in the century ahead.
About 2.5 tonnes of carbon dioxide are produced for every tonne of coal burnt in a power station. To capture, compress and bury it could take at least 30% of the electricity produced, greatly increasing the cost of the limited amount of electricity left for sale – more coal used, increased electricity costs, for ZERO measurable benefits.
We have come to expect stupidity from politicians, but coal industry leaders who agreed to waste money on this should be sued by shareholders for negligence. Maybe they were just drooling at all the extra coal they would sell in order to produce the same electricity?
Kevin Rudd wins this award for “a Flagrant Fleece of $400 million taken from tax payers to fund the fatuous Global Carbon Capture and Storage Institute.” There is little to show for the millions already spent except a lot of receipts for high class salaries, consultants, travel, entertainment and “operational expenses”.
Pumping gases underground is sensible if it brings real benefits such as using waste gases to drive oil recovery from declining oil fields.
Normally, however, CCS will just produce more expensive electricity.
This result is not needed as politicians have already invented dozens of ways of doing just that.
Viv Forbes,
Chairman, The Carbon Sense Coalition
Rosewood Qld Australia
2.5 Tonnes of CO2 for 1 Tonne of coal ?? – now that would be interesting !!
….and unless done on a massive (aka Chinese) scale, it is pointless. It’s pointless anyway, but….
Spending other peoples money is so easy.
Mr Rudd probably wont understand. It will go to his head. This is a compliment.
“To capture, compress and bury it could take at least 30% of the electricity produced, ….”
I bet “30%” is too small. Maybe more than 50%, or even close to 100%.
I think Kevin should be rescued from his precarious existence at a very nice house situated dangerously close to rising sea levels in Queensland and given a nice new safe home somewhere else, far away from the sea.
Given his enthusiasm for burying CO2 perhaps Lake Nyos in Cameroon would be appropriate…
Spending other people’s money isn’t pointless….it keeps so many govt. apparatchiks employed.
@’2.5 tonnes of carbon dioxide are produced for every tonne of coal burnt’. The two Oxygen atoms in the CO2 were in the atmosphere anyway, so only one ton of matter is added to the atmosphere. Recently the concentration of CO2 has increased by say 30 parts per million but only 1/5 is added mass ie 6 parts per million.[12/(2*16(O) +2*14.)]
The surface temperature is a function of the mass of gas (any gas) in the atmosphere above the surface (or any altitude in the atmosphere) due to gravity, conservation of energy and the ideal gas law, (see Venus, Mars, Stars {Type1) I think}). The added matter has only a 6 parts per million effect on the surface temperature, The amount added is so small that the approximation is linear, so the effect is (6/10^6) * 273 deg C = 0.0016 Deg C. That cannot be measured outside the laboratory.
A guy I went through university with is up to his ears in this scam at CSIRO. Tells me all I need to know about CSIRO. Some years ago I had cause to contact the Queensland mob at Kenwood about some technology they claimed to have. Didn’t go far after I asked some pointed questions which they didn’t bother to reply to.
Pathetic. CSIRO is a social welfare organisation for the otherwise unemployable. aka sheltered workshop.
From the UK. Although our Chancellor or the Exchequer seems somewhat sceptical about wind generation, he has put more of our money into CCS. I guess this is as a sop to the warmists. Utter waste of taxpayer’s money.
An unique Australian ABC program for the young was The Argonauts, with programs on nature literature and music.I always loved listening to Tom the Naturalist, no double entendre intended.
One of the awards for contributions was the Golden Fleece,after all this was part of the Argonaut’s historic quest, the fleece of a sheep used to separate out alluvial gold in a stream.
When one achieved the Golden Fleece award the next step was the Golden Fleece and Bar,no double entendre intended.Next came the Dragon’s Tooth.
Since projects involving CO2 are at best described as the work of whimsical minds, the use in Australia of such an award is entirely appropriate. There is scope for a pantheon of awards as the whimsy enfolds the winners.
I personally would like to see a CCS scheme go ahead so that future generations will be able to look back on it and say ‘that was one of the stupidest ideas in the history of mankind’.
CCS was tried in the UK at a Scottish pilot project. They had £10m to spend, drilled a hole and failed to inject any CO2. The project has been terminated.
CCS has yet to be proved anywhere. Whilst pumping any gas into the crust at high pressure is no problem the failures come when we expect this gas to actually stay there. Given that CO2 is a life giving gas whose ability to alter climate has yet to be proved I find the whole thing a total waste of hard earned taxpayer cash. For the same money you could fit every African village with fresh, clean running water.
They would also have been burying oxygen, which seems a bit of a shame, (a waste of good oxygen in fact, like the aforementioned Mr Rudd). Wouldn’t it have been better to have fed the CO2 to little green plants, so that they could put the carbon away somewhere useful, and we could have our oxygen back?
Australia has a history of exploiting taxation incentives, like digging in an old goldmine, never producing anything but keeping your employees occupied and taking the taxpayers development incentive till times improve and you can get back to “normal employment” – Government has a special talent inpromoting such schemes as they mask their inability to fix what is wrong in an economy.
Geoff says:
April 19, 2013 at 12:06 am
2.5 Tonnes of CO2 for 1 Tonne of coal ?? – now that would be interesting !!
Indeed, the other ton of CO2 from coal burning (equivalent is 3.6 ton/ton) probably escaped to space?
Nevertheless, no need for capturing, plants do like more CO2…
What many Warmists don’t realise is that the fossil fuel industry is happily on board with co2 reduction and capture schemes. The oil industry has been pumping co2 into wells to extract residual oil for over 30 years. Why not get paid to do it?
We see above that the coal and now the natural gas industry is now in on it too for ‘Enhanced Gas Recovery’. The fossil fuel industry and carbon sequestration are like two peas in a pod. They were made for each other and the public has to pay for these mad schemes through higher energy prices and fuel poverty.
Excellent start. Highlight the waste of money and resources due to AGW policy demands and fear mongering.
Considering the way AGW promoters waste money, my bet is a monthly golden fleece award will be justified.
I live in Australia and there is a election in Australia date 14th sep 2013 and we all hope that we kick there BUTT the Gillard GOV’T is killing Australia we all hate them the greenies and the communists will be kicked out of Australia with there 24$ carbon tax
@ Lew Skannen:
“I think Kevin should be rescued from his precarious existence at a very nice house situated dangerously close to rising sea levels in Queensland and given a nice new safe home somewhere else, far away from the sea.”
There’s a thought. Not far from the Brisbane River (but more likely on one of the high bits?).
Having dumped $600m worth of green projects (with the assistance of the former Premier’s partner who put it all together), the Queensland government now has a draft State Planning Policy, which includes “progressive sea level rise from 1990 levels to an additional 0.8 metres … an increase in cyclone maximum potential intensity by 10 per cent” by the year 2100. Based on IPCC AR 4 and “more recent work” by CSIRO.
In other words, bunk.
(Tide gauges aren’t showing much of significance and cyclone frequency and intensity records show nothing unprecedented either.) This won’t solve the problem of 100+ years of bad siting of towns, but will very likely result in planning blight on a very large scale along the coastline.
We have until 12 June to comment.
“Given his enthusiasm for burying CO2 perhaps Lake Nyos in Cameroon would be appropriate…”
LOL. Very pertinent. However, not funny for anyone downstream If the crater wall lets go,
Comment on Wikipedia:
“Today, the lake also poses a threat because its natural wall is weakening. A geological tremor could cause this natural dike to give way, allowing water to rush into downstream villages all the way into Nigeria and allowing much carbon dioxide to escape.”
As if the two risks are equal and the same? They are already unsequestering the CO2. Maybe Kevin could help unsequester the lake water …
I love it when the lefty greenies turn and eat their own. I truly enjoy it. It makes my day.
So – burying gas at high pressure underground is a good idea..?
So – what if the geologists have missed a teensy weensy pinhole in the rock strata, and it all leaks out..?
So – what if it leaks into ground water – and you get soda water coming out of your tap..?
So – what if it starts creating earthquakes..? Will they be NICE earthquakes, rather than NASTY ones which fracking might possibly cause..?
Amr Marzouk says:
April 19, 2013 at 12:10 am
“Spending other peoples money is so easy.”
Yup. This is pretty much how the climate science industry works…
Nippy says:
April 19, 2013 at 1:10 am
@’2.5 tonnes of carbon dioxide are produced for every tonne of coal burnt’. The two Oxygen atoms in the CO2 were in the atmosphere anyway, so only one ton of matter is added to the atmosphere. Recently the concentration of CO2 has increased by say 30 parts per million but only 1/5 is added mass ie 6 parts per million.[12/(2*16(O) +2*14.)]
Please explain this: [12/(2*16(O) +2*14.)]
What is the 12? Why 2*14?
Thanks
Geoff writes
=======
2.5 Tonnes of CO2 for 1 Tonne of coal ?? – now that would be interesting !!
========
Combining one tonne of carbon (coal) with oxygen to produce CO2
Atomic weight of carbon = 12
Atomic weight of oxygen = 16
So molecular weight of C02 = 12 + 32 = 44
So mass of CO2 produced with one tonne of coal = 1 tonne (C) + 2 *16/12 tonnes (O2) = 3.7 tonnes (CO2)
Some seem confused at the maths 2.5 tons CO2 per ton of coal. It is about right. Coal is not pure carbon as anyone who actually uses it knows. There is ash left behind. Lots of other rock are mixed in. Good anthracite coal is 85% carbon and a lot of coal is less – down to 30% for some lignite. 44 (mw of CO2)/12 (mw of C) = 3.67. 2.5/3.67 = 68% – middling coal.
Haven’t some really daft expensive notions come out solve this non-problem? Windmills. Electric cars. Carbon sequestering. To remove CO2 from atmosphere just plant more fast growing trees. But why worry anyway. CAGW is clearly not a real problem.
At State level, the last Queensland election gave us a Premier from the Right in Campbell Newman, to replace Anna Bligh, the beaten Premier from the Left. Soon after, the Press reported……
QUEENSLAND Premier Campbell Newman has ordered Anna Bligh’s husband to begin dismantling green energy programs he helped create, as the new LNP government moved to slash environmental spending to offset the federal carbon tax…
“We want him to unravel those programs ‘cause he’s the bloke who set them up,” Mr Newman said.
Mr Newman denied his government was trying to manage out Mr Withers, an assistant director-general who set up the Office of Climate Change when his wife became premier in 2007.
……………………………
I think that deserves an award.
With carbon capture – a recent lab experiment showed that CO2 under high temperature and pressure would combine with ground water to form carbonic acid. This acid was shown to eat through typical cap rock materials so would have a strong likelihood of reaching the surface. CO2 is a heavy gas which clings to the surface and kills any animal or human in the area.
When you think of how many billions has been spent on [usually failed] attempts at CCS without doing this simple research first, you realise how technologically challenged the proponents are. Proposed by idiots and implemented by buffoons.
http://www.theresilientearth.com/?q=content/co2-buried-destined-rise-again
“tango says:
April 19, 2013 at 4:03 am”
Aus is no longer the “lucky country”. September the 14th is a long long way away! Maybe Aussie will “get” the trend in “carbon trading”? I doubt Aussies are THAT smart to be honest…
The Carbon Sense Coalition has awarded its Inaugural Golden Fleece Award to Kevin Rudd and coal industry leaders for “flagrant fleecing of community savings in futile ‘research’ on Carbon Capture & Sequestration – a costly and complex process designed to
capture and bury carbon dioxide gas produced by burning carbon fuels such as coal, oil and gasfleece the taxpayer”.—————————————————————————
There…… Fixed it for you.
Job well done, Kevin.
cn
Patrick says:
April 19, 2013 at 7:21 am
“tango says:
April 19, 2013 at 4:03 am”
Aus is no longer the “lucky country”. September the 14th is a long long way away! Maybe Aussie will “get” the trend in “carbon trading”? I doubt Aussies are THAT smart to be honest…
————————
Watch yourselves downunder…….Progressives are sneaky.
Look what the US did last November.
We honestly thought Americans would vote for liberty.
OneBigAssMistakeAmerica
A repeat, no less!
cn
Here I always thought that the “Environmental Movement” (aka “Going Green”) was all about not doing anything that would have an impact on “Mother Nature”. So now the Greens are in favor of pumping part of the atmosphere, which “Ma Gaia” put above ground, underground?
Maybe they think insanity is natural?
If you want to capture carbon its goddam simple. Get corn husk.. forget about all the stupid idea of converting it into bio-fuels. just bury it and thats your carbon-dioxide and methane captured. Sure it take a million years to become coal but its carbon dioxide has been immediately removed from the system.
So when do i get my million dollar paycheck for digging holes and covering it back up.
That Golden Fleece ram was the trademark of an Australian oil company which was used from 1913 until the early 1980’s. http://www.flickr.com/groups/1942976@N20/pool/
The name was first used on kerosine imported from California but, interestingly, Australia began producing it’s own kerosine from shale in 1854. http://users.adam.com.au/gasmaps/austoilhist.htm
Ulick Stafford (@ustafford) says:
April 19, 2013 at 6:05 am
To remove CO2 from atmosphere just plant more fast growing trees.
####
Oh no! Can’t do that because it would be mean to the Earrrth to plant evil capitalistic frankentrees. Just think of all the environmental damage they will cause. Besides people might be able to make money. Everyone knows that its bad to make money exploiting nature.
“Chuck Nolan says:
April 19, 2013 at 7:39 am”
Yes, but voting is compulsory in Aus, unlike the US, and we can dictate the direction of Government. Oh, wait!
They should add Alison Redford, Premier of Alberta, Canada to the award… elected with the support of the Carbon Capture Storage lobby.
“There is little to show for the millions already spent except a lot of receipts for high class salaries, consultants, travel, entertainment and “operational expenses”.
Is that right? The money mostly on these items? Can you please prove this?
Or is it just made-up hyperbole, usually better known as lies?
TheInquirer:
re your silly post at April 19, 2013 at 9:47 am
The costs of the jobs, salaries and expenses are in public accounts.
It would be a criminal offence to have spent those monies on other things.
Your implication is that the money has been spent on other things.
Can you please prove this?
Or is it just made-up hyperbole, usually better known as lies?
Richard
Nice piece of symbolism, but all modern government qualifies for the scammer of the year award.
So many freeloaders so few contributors.
The type of person who desires to live an effortless life at the expense of others, gravitates to bureaucracy and then expands their ranks for power and camouflage.
Of course once they run out of producers and wealth that can be stolen, it all falls down.
I expect the public relations firms who have orchestrated these scams, to launch a full blown campaign to focus public anger on created scapegoats.
Ironically we have a wealth of resources, untapped human talent and worthy challenges before us, but have allowed ourselves, collectively, to become wasters and defeatists.
Eternal vigilance is the price of a free society, but civilization is too precious to leave in the hands of delusional do-gooders.
Look to our local governments, who holds office? Why does no one in their right mind seek these positions?
Have you noticed, that when practical people get angry enough to run for office, the media disses them as being too extreme?
Between 1975 and 1988, US Sen. William Proxmire Awarded 168 “Golden Fleece Awards” to public officials in the United States who, the judges felt, wasted public money. The Washington Post once referred to the award as “the most successful public relations device in politics today.”
I’m glad to see it has been reincarnated.
Madness is all embracing.
The PM John Howard (Liberals or conservatives) kicked this off before Rudd (Labor) was elected. Howard had allocated at least one billion dollars to this fanciful endeavour. He may not have believed in it; just his way of posturing especially for the Chinese, given we had not signed Kyoto.
But at least we were in Budget surplus and zero Fed borrowings when Howard proposed that, Only drunken sailors and Labor twits go on spending sprees like this when our budgets are in huge deficit (-$15billion+ pa) and net Fed debt jumps to $300 billion. (NB our GDP is about $1.5trillion – quite a lot smaller than the U.S :))
Lew Skannen says:
April 19, 2013 at 12:20 am
… Given his enthusiasm for burying CO2 perhaps Lake Nyos in Cameroon would be appropriate…
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There went my ice tea all over the key board, ROTFLMAO. Perhaps we need to establish an enclave on the shores of Lake Nyos for all the others who deserve a Golden Fleece Award.
It seems a government has FINALLY listened to Delingpole and also given out a ‘ Golden Fleece Award’ to another scientist, this time in the UK. Scientist jailed for faking medicine test results The ‘Good Laboratory Practice Regulations’ was passed in 1999 and this was the first case tried. I wonder if that is why Phil Jones just about had a nervous breakdown when the Climategate-mails were released.
Ahhhh, The Golden Fleece Award! Glad to see it resurrected again! William Proxmire, Wisconsin Senator from 1957 – 1989, created the Golden Fleece Award in 1975, to highlight wasteful state and federal government spending.
Applying The Golden Fleece Award to AGW fraud seems entirely apropos!
MtK
Regarding, Mr. Rudd claim that 2.5 tons CO2 are produced per ton coal consumed.
While Mr. Rudd’s claim is high end it’s not completely out the ball park. The figure varies by coal type.
In the United States, a typical Illinois basin (ILB) coal would produce about 2.36 lb CO2/ lb coal where:
The CO2/Coal ratio for ILB = 11,500 Btu/lb coal * 205.2 lb CO2/MBtu / 10^6 Btu/MBtu
= 2.36 lb CO2/lb Coal
Whereas a typical Powder River Basin (PRB) coal would produce about 1.85 lb CO2/lb coal where:
The CO2/Coal ratio for PRB = 8,800 Btu/lb coal * 209.8 lb CO2/MBtu / 10^6 Btu/MBtu
= 1.85 lb CO2/lb Coal
Please Note: that PRB’s actual CO2 emission per Mwh of electricity produced would typically be higher than that for ILB… due to the higher moisture content and lower heat content of PRB.
Regards,
Kforestcat
Sort of like paying to dig a hole and fill it in. Keeps lot’s of folks employed and lots of money in circulation. Keynesian economics at its best.
Well, know you know why in Australia he is known as Krudd. And co2 sequestration was but one of his many inane, spendthrift policy ventures. He was so bad his party dumped him after a particularly densely packed series of blunders, many of them green inspired. If you want a good side-splitting laugh, his priministership is recommended reading.
The whole carbon Capture industry is a bottomless pit for money wastage, designed by the Greenie Left to specifically DESTROY western industrialised economies. Here is the simplest carbon capture scheme of all. 1)grow fast growing trees to capture the poisonous plant food, CO2,2)make paper money from said trees, with taxation value added. 3) Bury the money deep inside exhausted underground coal mines. 4) Have a party with all the Green pants-wetters ,feeling all warm and fuzzy(they will need this to stave off the cold) in some exotic location with the delegates flown in first class.5) Crow to the world how wonderful they are and that they, the ones who have saved the world from becoming a living hell should be given total power over us evil ones who created the problem in the first place 6) WHEN the collapse of the whole Green Utopia causes the inevitable rift from within humanity itself as people are starving and have lost all hope, remember who maintained “the science is settled” and “the debate is over.” 7) There is no step 7-the human race has all but become extinct.
As the recently departed Margaret Thatcher once observed,
“Socialism always fails because sooner or later they run out of other people’s money.”
Exactly what happened to Rudd, but now he has found new ways to “redistribute” other people’s
money. And yes, there will be plenty of big receipts to justify his travels – the Rudd style.
Take the coal industry’s name off. They were fighting for survival in a crazy political economy. They are loaded with engineers so they know it is a joke, but picture what would happen if they refused to go along.
Maybe we need a “Green Fleece” award… Just thinking…
Dear Gary
Unfortunately some in the coal industry are not just fighting for survival – they are positively encouraging the scam. The coal industry, for example, believes potentially catastrophic global temperature rises this century are all but inevitable unless “clean coal” technology is widely deployed.
“At the moment, our energy consumption has us on track for four degrees – some would say six degrees – of temperature rise,” deputy chief executive of the Australian Coal Association Greg Sullivan says.
See: http://www.theage.com.au/national/new-kinds-of-power-to-the-people-20130418-2i31m.html#ixzz2QtF0qD53
Viv Forbes