President Obama in his recent SOTU address said that “this is our generation’s sputnik moment” referring to the need to use science and technology to develop cheaper clean energy (among other things). It seems the Chinese were listening because last week they announced a focused effort to achieve technological leadership in thorium molten salt reactors.
From EnergyFromThorium
The People’s Republic of China has initiated a research and development project in thorium molten-salt reactor technology, it was announced in the Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS) annual conference on Tuesday, January 25. An article in the Wenhui News followed on Wednesday (Google English translation). Chinese researchers also announced this development on the Energy from Thorium Discussion Forum.
See the Press report (Chinese) below along with partial translation:
http://whb.news365.com.cn/yw/201101/t20110126_2944856.htm
(partial google translation follows)
“Yesterday, as the Chinese Academy of Sciences started the first one of the strategic leader in science and technology projects, “the future of advanced nuclear fission energy – nuclear energy, thorium-based molten salt reactor system” project was officially launched. The scientific goal is to use 20 years or so, developed a new generation of nuclear energy systems, all the technical level reached in the trial and have all intellectual property rights.”
What is a “thorium-based molten salt reactor system”? Please see this previous WUWT post on this technology.
Currently there is no US effort to develop a thorium MSR. Readers of this blog and Charles Barton’s Nuclear Green blog know that there has been a grass-roots effort underway for over five years to change this. The formation of the Thorium Energy Alliance and the International Thorium Energy Organization have been other attempted to convince governmental and industrial leaders to carefully consider the potential of thorium in a liquid-fluoride reactor. There have been many international participants in the TEA and IThEO conferences, but none from China.
Will the US accept the challenge or allow the Chinese to dominate advanced nuclear technology too? Using a technology invented in the US 40 years ago no less!
This isn’t a “Sputnik moment” Mr. President, it’s a “shit or get off the pot” moment for US energy policy. The US excelled at the space race, partly because of the swift kick in the pants that Sputnik provided. Perhaps this announcement will be the embarrassment like Sputnik for the US government that will compel them to finally do something about our energy future besides tilt at windmills.
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Thanks to Charles Hart for the tip and info gathering.
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Poor Harry Truman. 60 some years after the Communists attacked in Korea , Communist China becomes a scientific power house and these United States becomes a parochial backwater.
This country is under the sway of superstitious, ignorant fools.
And they think that they are the elite; the best and the brightest. The illuminati and the glitterati. They went to all the best schools and know all of the right people.
Pray for our children.
Regards,
Steamboat Jack (Jon Jewett’s evil twin)
It would seem that the current administration is not interested in any energy source associated with the word nuclear. New energy sources (beyond ‘renewable’ ones) is contrary to their plan to cause energy prices to necessarily skyrocket.
NASA is too busy painting happy faces on [trimmed]……….
Thorium is 6 times more abundant than Uranium. If we could scoop up one square mile of rock and soil to a depth of one foot, then extract all of the radioactive material from it, we would accumulate about 2,200 kg of uranium, 12,000 kg of thorium, 2,000 kg of Potassium-40, and 1.7 grams of radium. See http://www.physics.isu.edu/radinf/natural.htm
Here’s a bit of advice. Ignore what Obama or anyone in his administration says, and instead observe what they do.
They are playing catch up to the US in this case …
There has been no US work on nuclear reactors of substance since the Three Mile Island accident.
So there is no deep pool of nuclear expertise and engineering know how left in the US, these experts have largely died or retired in that 35 year interval.
That means a serious nuclear effort will need to accept that we need to train a new generation of specialists, a slow and error prone as well as costly process.
It is unlikely that the current political process can be galvanized enough to get this done. It will take a serious crisis before there is any progress, even assuming we are lucky enough to have knowledgeable leadership at that time. We’ll probably have to buy our reactors from China.when the crisis comes.
Great point geoff. Not only does the environmental movement want “clean” energy, they want expensive energy. They WANT expensive energy. Because as long as energy is cheap, we will use it to expand our civilization and enrich our lives in ways that use more resources of the planet. That will still be true even if that energy is generated by “clean” means. And that’s why nuclear, which is clean but could also, alas, be cheap, is not something they want considered.
Yeah right. Advanced Chinese technology is an oxymoron. If they can’t buy it or steal from the United States they ain’t got it.
REPLY: Pull your head out of your butt for a moment and realize that this liquid salt thorium technology is 40 years old. They can get it out of textbooks. They don’t need “advanced” technology, only the will to use what’s sitting on the shelf.
The USA doesn’t have the will. While we are screwing around with windmills and sustainability, the Chinese are taking what should have been used years ago and applying it while laughing at the green folly of the west. – Anthony
“Curiousgeorge says:
January 30, 2011 at 5:45 pm
Here’s a bit of advice. Ignore what Obama or anyone in his administration says, and instead observe what they do.”
Good advice. You can say the same thing about all career politicians.
“This isn’t a “Sputnik moment” Mr. President, it’s a “shit or get off the pot” moment for US energy policy.”
Right on.
Fort St. Vrain comes to mind. It was a thorium cycle, HTGR (helium), and graphite core. The only one ever built. What did we learn from it to make it a commercial technology? The Helium heat exchanger was a weak point in the St. Vrain plant.
Graphite moderators give me the willies. It may be illogical, but Chernobyl was made worse by a burning graphite core. Are the control rods graphite in this design?
According to the WUWT link, they are going to use a lithium-floride salt. This stuff needs to be kept apart from water. So a what-if scenario needs explaining here.
In this design, there is a continuous chemical reprocessing of the molten salt. What are the accident risks (chemical and financial) here?
If you have the time, this is a very informative video about LFTRs:
Maybe they’ll spur us to some nuclear action?
Here’s my hope: I hope the Chinese start drilling for oil in our “territorial” waters. We can claim 200 miles all we want and they can claim we only have 3 miles and drill 3.1 miles offshore. What are we going to do about it?
It really doesn’t matter who brings the oil to market, except for who gets the oil worker jobs. All I care about is not having to pay Obama’s “necessary” $6/gallon.
The Obama administration is substituting green energy for conventional/nuke energy for the simple reason that they are positioning their friends to make a cut. Their friends will in turn share the pillage with the Obamites. It’s simple and without regard to the needs of the country. The needs of the country are not even a part of the calculus of this reasoning on the part of the Administration. It is completely corrupt.
If someone came up with a widget that generated limitless energy for all, the adminstration would drop a bomb on it since they might not get a cut.
@Stephen Fisher Rasey
…What are the accident risks (chemical and financial) here?
Are you kidding? The Chinese don’t have to worry about that kind of thing. If they do have an accident, they’ll just scoop up all the contamination and mix into crap for sale at Walmart. We never know what we’re getting in the Chinese crap we buy at Walmart.
Actually, there’s very little accident potential in thorium reactors, from what I’ve read.
All intellectual property rights as well? Bad news for the US if they decide to use this technology in future after the Chinese have already developed it. Energy security is an impossibility if the US government continues to deliberately squander all its opportunities to get ahead while it still has time. Having to rely on China for this technology? Not a good idea!
David is half-correct. Not only is it the enviromentalists who want expensive energy, it is all of ‘them’ in positions of real power as well. All those Club of Rome types. That is why the US is seriously dragging its feet on nuclear R&D.
“. . . and have all intellectual property rights.”
I’ve been reading at the site linked to by Anthony (Nuclear Green Blog, and from there – others). This is a 40 year old concept that has been investigated and tested in the United States. The people of the USA ought to have some claim to parts of the intellectual property, and I suspect other nations with active research. Is that not so?
President (“lost in space”) Sputnik may be able to learn about this. Both houses of congress should pass legislation to make it happen. B.O. would then be faced with a need to respond.
We are so screwed.
My son learned Spanish in school but I think now I’ll tell him
to pick up some Chinese in college, too.
30 Jan: The Hill: White House official cites ‘education problem’ on climate
By Ben Geman
“It is an education problem. I think we have to educate them,” said John Holdren, who heads the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy, in an interview broadcast Sunday…
Holdren, asked about advancing Obama’s agenda in the face of skepticism, said the scientific evidence of dangerous human-induced climate change is powerful. “The science of climate change is really very clear in its essentials,” Holdren said on Platts Energy Week.
He said there is uncertainty about details, but noted that’s always the case in science. What’s plain, Holdren said, is that the climate is changing in damaging ways and that human activities – notably burning fossil fuels – are “overwhelmingly likely” to be the primary cause.
“Those points are clear in the science, and we need to talk with the members of Congress who aren’t yet convinced of that to try and convince them,” Holdren said…
“The president realizes that we need all the new energy sources we can get. We need energy sources that reduce our contribution to production of greenhouse gases that are altering the climate, we need those new energy sources to reduce our dependence on foreign oil, and we need them to stay competitive in a global market.”…
http://thehill.com/blogs/e2-wire/677-e2-wire/141143-white-house-official-cites-capitol-hill-education-problem-on-climate-
competitive like this, john!
31 Jan: Daily Telegraph Australia: John Rolfe: Electricity shock as power bills rise
POWER bills are set to rise by 25 per cent this year – twice as fast as forecast.
The likely doubling is because households will pick up the tab for government green programs – meaning average electricity users face finding an extra $320 to $440…
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/indepth/power-bill-scott/story-fn4x9za1-1225997113083
@ur momisugly Anthony,
Don’t let yourself get sucked in by the troll bait, we got your back.
I don’t think the Sonny Bono laws (which need repealing, btw) apply to this kind of thing. A patent is good for what, seven years? Or, is it less?
Dave Springer says:
January 30, 2011 at 5:56 pm
“Yeah right. Advanced Chinese technology is an oxymoron. If they can’t buy it or steal from the United States they ain’t got it.”
Anthonys reply to you said it all Dave. Have you ever been to China? I have just finished 4 years there and although all is not perfect, I can tell you that not only are you way off the mark but your comment shows the lazy thinking that the has got the West into the mire it is in.
Makes you wonder why such companies as Intel and Microsoft, to name but two huge companies, have huge research facilities right next to the university in Shanghai, right?
Its no use moaning and gripping, China is forging ahead, as once the U.K. followed by the U.S. did and all we have are useless leaders and politicians who have know idea how to get a country producing and allow advocacy green groups to ban the exact products we need to be competitive.
So the Chinese have started a massive LFTR program, and aside from safety and cost, LFTR’s happen to have high power densities and higher efficiencies than conventional reactors (we even built a uranium molten-salt reactor for a nuclear-powered bomber program) and are much better suited to mass production. There has been talk in the thorium community that LFTR’s would be ideal for naval vessels, even making sense in small surface warships where conventional PWRs don’t make sense.
So you can bet that the Chinese program will eventually work its way into their navy, with all the benefits LFTR proponents see for our own ships. That means the US Navy had better start a program of its own, to investigate the benefits and pitfalls of a LFTR in submarines (faster? quieter? smaller?) and surface ships (more powerful radar? energy for beam weapons?). Developing a large blue water Navy, even less dependent on supply lines than our own, could be a game changer in the Pacific.
The only Sputnik moments in the US are coming from private industry. In two weeks IBM will play Jeopardy against the two most successful contestants in show history using a computer. It probably cost the company a few million in R&D to develop this capability. How much do you think the feds would spend to do the same? 5 billion? 10 billion?
Would they ever succeed?