Wikileaks cables: on climate, IPCC, Copenhagen

This just in, I’m blogging from a public terminal at a hospital, more later:

WikiLeaks cables: Cancún climate talks doomed to fail, says EU president

Herman van Rompuy dismisses Copenhagen climate summit as ‘incredible disaster’ and expects Cancún to be no better

See links below:


WikiLeaks cables reveal how US manipulated climate accord
US goes to Basics over Copenhagen accord tactics
WikiLeaks cables: Cancún climate talks doomed to fail, says EU president

h/t to Ecotretas

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50 thoughts on “Wikileaks cables: on climate, IPCC, Copenhagen

  1. Wow. The Grauniad must have a dilemma!
    To attack the US or to support the AGW scam?
    Their two favourite missions in conflict.

  2. We’ve got folks of integrity all over this globe. Some may be a bit ‘slower’ than others
    in seeing Truth, but ~ they’re friends, nonetheless.

    So many of us have become ‘watchmen’ by what appears to be coincidence ~ but, also understand that there is NO SUCH THING as that word.

    To put my ‘faith’ where my typing fingers are, too, Anthony. I’m getting on my knees
    right now for you and your family and I don’t even know what’s going on, but God assuredly does… I’m off to lift you and your family up.

    C.L. Thorpe

  3. These articles show that the less developed countries are using GHG as a shakedown operation, and that the Obama administration was falling all over itself to browbeat them into taking money to go along with a plan to give them more money.

    The country is in the best of hands.

  4. “I’m blogging from a public terminal at a hospital”

    Anthony your dedication is remarkable, and I thank you for it! You and your site have made a real difference.

    The “shakedown” mentioned by Quinn the Eskimo above has always been pretty obvious but these leaked emails just make that clear – rather like what the Climategate emails did.

    Not as well explained is that the UN et al are part of it, facilitating it, and that global multinationals are the ones which will benefit the most.

    Interesting in the first link, the Guardian, always a source of unimpeachable truth, maintains the mantra of the US being the ‘world’s largest polluter’ even though China has now become #1.

    Hope all goes well where you are.

  5. “Through the Looking Glass”

    Our formerly first-rate nation is seeking ways to shovel money we don’t have to eco-shakedown artists in the name of “solving” a non-problem, all the while enriching CO2 speculators.

    This is insanity, but at least some of it is being exposed.

    Assange is a self-serving twit and his distribution of leaked cables has done great harm to America – but has also inadvertently cast a bright light on greencrap diplomacy.

    Here’s to the death of CON-cun international agreements. When the thieves can’t trust each other to tell the same lies, there’s a chance that truth will prevail.

  6. Can anyone copy these cables and post them in full here? I cannot ever get on the UK Guardian and Wikileaks is moving around shifting sand. Or can these cables be found elsewhere? Thanks

  7. “The US diplomatic cables reveal how the US seeks dirt on nations opposed to its approach to tackling global warming;…………”
    ==================
    Careful, who would oppose free money.
    Let’s not walk into a trap.

  8. …GREAT FILM CLIP…now……..since I’ve only enjoyed ‘So Dear to My Heart’ and ‘Seven Brides for Seven Brothers’………can someone fill me in on where this comes
    from???

    ps ~ a few years ago, when Ian and I drove my Aussie parents-in-law around 10,000 miles to ‘see the U.S.A’ for the first time, there was a tornado while we were on the road. When I woke in the morning, the little city we were near was pretty devastated, but ~ at the local car dealership there was a HUGE American flag on a big flag pole that had been ripped through. I gasped as I took in the sight:

    The flag ~ Ol’ Glory ~ was being propped up by a beefy pickup truck. I was amazed
    and thought that it was pretty clearly a vision of how America is gonna be saved
    on the backs of GRATEFUL hard-working Christian Americans. No Less. (I feel the fear leaving and the intensity growing. There will certainly BE A CLIMATE CHANGE but, jus’ not what them ‘greenies’ had in mind…

    Well, that was the truthful story and now..prayerfully someone can tell me where I can find that DVD to watch the rest of that movie. Now…..where’s my popcorn…?

    C.L. Thorpe

  9. “…Any linking of the billions of dollars of aid to political support is extremely controversial – nations most threatened by climate change see the aid as a right, not a reward, and such a link as heretical…”

    kind of says it all

  10. “The biggest shock has been Japan’s announcement that it will not support an extension of the existing Kyoto climate treaty. That gives a huge boost to the accord. US diplomatic wheeling and dealing may, it seems, be bearing fruit.”

  11. Dear Cynthia Lauren Thorpe
    if you click on the YouTube button below the clip you willsee the original YouTube source complete with notes:
    “clip from the movie of the musical Lil Abner”

  12. I will not stop worrying about what is being done by my government and how badly it is screwing things up in the name of AGW until they are finally defeated.

    I hope it happens in 2012, but I have seen these folks survive worse than the 2010 “shellacking” before. They are like those danged energizer bunnies!

  13. Anthony,
    Hoping all is well with Mrs. Watts and the hospital visit is a scheduled check-up.
    Best regards to you both.

    I am not sure on the focus on ‘countries’ (Quinn the Eskimo), thank you for your insightful comment. Surely interest groups within countries needs to be plotted?

    Yes, great clip, thanks for posting
    Cynthia – you may also enjoy the versions by Patti Page (1950) and Patsy Cline (3/1963 for the US Airforce) – The Tennessee Waltz – on you tube.
    Wiki states the TTW was the highest selling in Japan- where rating is of musical quality rather than country or name of artist (28/12/1974).

  14. Anthony, sorry to hear you are back in the hospital scene, we all wish you well!

    There’s an interesting perspective on Wikileaks files from the DOE Fermilab, please see “Preventing Wikileaks access” at this link:

    http://www.fnal.gov/pub/today/

    “While it might seem intuitive that once a classified document has been publicly exposed it would no longer be considered classified, that is not true. There is some risk to you as an individual of being involved in an investigation if you view or possess classified information.”

  15. Wow. this is big.
    I used to think that Wikileaks was a lot about ruining the efforts of the US and allies in Iraq and Afghanistan.
    But I have begun to think that the corruption of the Karzai regime and the unwillingness of the Obama government to push for fair, democratic elections and government in Afghanistan are the most important threats to convincing Afghanis that democracy is a good thing.
    Wikileaks exposes the dealings of US diplomats with corrupt Afghani government officials.

    And the more the political elites in Europe and the world isolate themselves from, and lie to the populations they are supposed to represent, the more I am happy that Wikileaks shows what they are really up to.

    I am carefully beginning to like Wikileaks.

  16. I’m interested to see that The Guardian now thinks that the EU is a “country”.
    Or have I missed something?

  17. Van Who? Oh yes, that unelected faceless guy from Belgium. This is the man who thinks that the EU will make war in Europe impossible. The way things are going here it will make war more likely. I do not take much notice of anything he says so this statement is possibly his way of energizing things to get some agreement. Beware Belgians bearing gifts!

  18. Made some more analysis here:

    http://ecotretas.blogspot.com/2010/12/wikileaks-first-climate-cables.html

    Some particular interesting observations:
    -The Danes said they are “fed up”
    -Senior Ministry of Petroleum officials have reassured us after each of Al-Sabban’s public outbursts over the last six months that he has been “tamed” and brought back onto the reservation.
    -that Pope Benedict had firmly established his “green” reputation

    Ecotretas

  19. oldseadog says:
    December 4, 2010 at 12:47 am

    I’m interested to see that The Guardian now thinks that the EU is a “country”.
    Or have I missed something?

    Perhaps that countries in EU are now sometimes referred to as ‘regions’. Not a good idea.

  20. Herman van Rompuy dismisses Copenhagen climate summit as ‘incredible disaster’ and expects Cancún to be no better”

    Question: Who elected Herman van Rompuy as President of the European Union? And who is this jamoke anyway?

    The hoi polloi EU citizens have but one purpose on this planet: to pay ever higher taxes, and then STFU.

    If I’m wrong about that, will someone please explain how?

    [Great YouTube video by coalsoffire, btw!]

  21. Wikileaks is providing us with some magnificent context information about what is really going on between the ruling elite, who own big business, and their puppet politicians.

    We need to be vocal in our support for Julian Assange, the owner of this conduit of free speech, as he will come under more pressure from a raft of dirty tricks in the coming weeks.

  22. Anthony, I sincerely hope your wife is merely having a routine check and that all is well with her. You and your family have my best wishes.
    As to Wikileaks, I am ambivalent about the notion of leaking (even though Climategate would have taken years to surface were it not for the leaker/s) and very ambivalent about the Grauniad’s role in disseminating those leaks – I woud not place any trust in any of that paper’s editorial staff as they appear to be keen to poison the well of public information and too willing to indulge in very nasty name-calling.
    I doubt that I have had complete trust in any political figure for the last 50-odd years, either, as long experience teaches us all some painful lessons.

  23. Bit off topic,

    Are we freezing because of global warming?

    According to Prof Mark Maslin, of University College London, there seems – at present – “to be no evidence of changes in the Atlantic circulation which could account for the last two harsh winters”. There are, he says, shorter-term patterns in ocean circulation which have a major effect, and have been linked to the severe winters in the 1940s and 1960s. But again, that is probably NOT the case today.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/climatechange/8178162/Are-we-freezing-because-of-global-warming.html

  24. Carsten Arnholm, Norway says:
    December 4, 2010 at 2:26 am
    oldseadog says:
    December 4, 2010 at 12:47 am

    I’m interested to see that The Guardian now thinks that the EU is a “country”.
    Or have I missed something?

    Perhaps that countries in EU are now sometimes referred to as ‘regions’. Not a good idea.

    Exactly the opposite.

    Europe of the Regions is a bureau of the European Commission that intends to discard the old nation state boundaries and replace them with ‘Regional’ boundaries for ‘democratic elections’. It is an attempt to remove any national identity and make the EU ‘easier to govern’.

    See http://www.aer.eu/main-issues/governance.html

    “Multilevel governance understood as the exercise of authority and policy making across various levels of government has become one of the main approaches to European integration. It is one of the key tasks of the AER to ensure that regions are involved in the different governance debates on European level and to ensure that Europe’s regions are involved in the EU’s decision-making process of tomorrow”

  25. latitude says:
    December 3, 2010 at 6:30 pm
    “The biggest shock has been Japan’s announcement that it will not support an extension of the existing Kyoto climate treaty. That gives a huge boost to the accord. US diplomatic wheeling and dealing may, it seems, be bearing fruit.”

    This is the most frightening part of the whole thing.
    Japan’s move may not be such a good thing after all, just a means of putting pressure on other countries to sign up to a much more draconian accord.

  26. All the knicker twisting surrounding Wikileaks just makes it more popular. And anything more popular will soon have competition. This is a train that will be impossible to stop.

    So a word to the wise: If you don’t want others to see your correspondence, don’t leave electronic or paper trails. And if you are in an organization that prohibits “shredding” such things, watch your words lest they be trotted out on the nightly news to your embarrassment.

    Why? Because in a free society, you are often felled by your own words as much as by your own sword. So don’t be shooting yourself in the foot so to speak.

  27. Coals of Fire- that Lil’ Abner clip is right on. I am a fan of Al Capp. What a ball he
    would’ve had with this current political climate :-)
    Oh, Anthony, Godspeed….

  28. ” R. de Haan says:
    December 3, 2010 at 6:22 pm

    Dutch internet users start petition addressed to the Dutch Prime Minister to offer political asylum, legal support and personal protection for Assange and to offer a redundant provider services to keep Wikileaks online.
    Save WIKILEAKS

    http://www.joop.nl/politiek/detail/artikel/rutte_red_wikileaks/

    Use Google Translator Dutch/English and if possible sign the petition.”

    and Tenuc’s post too.

    It simply boggles the mind the shallowness of thought that infests so many, especially those from Europe and the left. Assange is no friend of “free speech”, nor of western civilization. Wikileaks is not about “truth”, its about private agendas; Assange is simply an egomaniacal anarchist – he lacks the education, the foresight and the wisdom to understand what he is playing at. The damage this current set of revelations will cause will be deep and long lasting. It will diminish free speech, lead to the significant curtailment of the internet, and result in material, physical harm to very many people. While its popular to think that poking publically the power bases of nations at their operational levels is great sport, it is also incredibly dangerous. That most of the players in this current affair are still alive, is not because of the light being cast, its because of the benevolence of the pokees. Its not a fact that all nations and all leaders, are, at their core, benevolent; increasingly this will become less so, and Assange has guaranteed that critics will be silenced early, and permanently.

    Its also especially offensive that characters like DeHaan would support the undermining of those to whom his present family and relatives owe their existence to. Its the very nature of the diplomatic world that secured the miserable existence of the Dutch during WWII from total ravagement by a regime that would have no qualms about silencing Assange without any concern whatsoever about due process. Such regimes continue to exist today, and its not yet clear that another is not building in Europe, again. A bullet is infinitely easier to use to silence dissent than a speech or a press. Be advised: the great power of the internet also ensures that there is, literally, no place to hide.

  29. This WikiLeaks thing is really a train wreck in slow motion.

    But is assassination really a good (or bad) idea to stop (or start) more leaks ..

    Supporters of WikiLeaks around the world are downloading a file the site calls an insurance policy. The files are encrypted with a code so strong it’s unbreakable, even by governments.
    If anything happens to Assange or the website, a key will go out to unlock the files. There would then be no way to stop the information from spreading like wildfire because so many people already have copies.

    .. or will it actually make matter worse (or better).

  30. Paul Coppin says:
    December 4, 2010 at 8:31 am
    “It simply boggles the mind the shallowness of thought that infests so many, especially those from Europe and the left. Assange is no friend of “free speech”, nor of western civilization.”

    Paul, you have a very naive view of the current global political system. If you really still believe that party politics of left and right have any relevance your must either be taking the cool-aid or live with your head buried deep in the sand. If you take the time to look at the context of the Wikileaks documents, then you will find out that what we call democracy is in fact a sham and most western politicians are working to the same imposed agenda whatever party is in power.

    Without whistle-blowers, and a place for them to safely publish their information, most people would be left with relying on the far from independent MSM to find out what’s happening across the globe. So it is important that Julian Assange et al get support, no matter what you think about the guy. Otherwise the ruling elite that want to move the public to accept a totalitarian world government will win and personal freedom become a mere memory.

    In view of the high stakes involved, while it is regrettable that there will be a few casualties along the way, it is essential that the public become aware before it is too late.

  31. I posted this on another thread but it does seem relevant here:

    “EU hands China €500m clean tech loan

    European Investment Bank provides financial backing for up to 15 low-carbon projects

    The prospects of an international deal on new climate financing mechanisms received a boost earlier today, when the European Investment Bank (EIB) announced it has granted €500m (£425m) to China to support the development of low-carbon projects.”

    http://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/1930032/eu-hands-china-eur500m-clean-tech-loan

    Now they can borrow money from ‘poor’ China to give back to them.

  32. Tenuc, please, you don’t anything about me, nor apparently do you know much about “democracy”, or the political realities of business, or power. If the content of this batch of stuff from Wikileaks is a revelation to you, than it is you who are naive, or have been, for a very long time. You really need to have a very close look at Julian Assange. Western society is not a product of democracy, notwithstanding the high rhetoric. It is, mostly, a product of “tribal” feudalism, with a few elevated monarchs thrown in, and sops to the masses in the guise of republicanism because its easier to throw a bone than to constantly oppress. Thus it has been and will likely be forever more. Think long and hard about how a true democracy might flourish. There is a convergence point where democracy and anarchy cross, both to expand out to a form of authoritarianism on the other side. Contemplate the “tyranny of the majority” for a bit.

    There is a standard, almost trite, common expression in investigative work (especially police or financial investigation, which is what I do for a western government): “follow the money”. All wikileaks is going to do is point out the obvious to those who are aware (I have read many of the cables, few surprises). What I do know is how governments view security and information management. I do know their capacity for surveillance and control, especially technologically. I do know how some of the consequences of this will unfold because I work in that world. Everyone will view the information through the lens of their own nation-state’s culture. Enlightened Americans, Canadians and Britons will be mostly amused. I suspect many Europeans will be troubled. They should have been at the outset of the EU.

    It will come as a surprise to you and many others to learn that governance is a dirty job. It will come as a bigger surprise that that won’t change. The world is not blessed with an equality of resources, climate, space or ideologies. Who decides who shares? We have a million years of evolution that has and will continue to demonstrate the answer to that question.

    tenuc wrote: In view of the high stakes involved, while it is regrettable that there will be a few casualties along the way, it is essential that the public become aware before it is too late.

    This is just a headbanger of a statement: The “public” doesn’t care – you will see that. But the shaker is this: “it is regrettable there will be casualties along the way” So, whose moral judgment decides, yours or the government’s? Tell me, how is your agenda better than that of those you condemn? Who are you going to sacrifice?

    Here’s a quote from the Times of London, as reported by CBS:

    “Hundreds of Afghan civilians who worked as informants for the U.S. military have been put at risk by WikiLeaks’ publication of more than 90,000 classified intelligence reports which name and in many cases locate the individuals, The Times newspaper reported Wednesday….

    The article says, in spite of WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange’s claim that sensitive information had been removed from the leaked documents, that reporters scanning the reports for just a couple hours found hundreds of Afghan names mentioned as aiding the U.S.-led war effort.”

    Who decides?

    Assange had the opportunity to repudiate Bradley Manning while still preserving some of the documentation to make his point. He chose not to do that, as he has done before – he is simply conducrting a grand experiment – he really doesn’t care about the casualties – he’s on record for that – casualties in the thousands for which he freely admits he’s likely responsible in previous releases, but has no moral regard. Assange is a sociopath, not a hero.

  33. Tenuc,
    I wholly agree.
    And I would be happier if people would not invoke WWII and who should be grateful to whom. For e.g., my country was left in the Soviet zone by the arrangements of Yalta. Not much reason for rejoicing…

  34. …can’t tell you all how much I enjoy ‘Watts Up’. (Yes, even when Lance and that…”initials” guy wanted to slap God in the face…no biggie, He can handle that!)
    I find my way here to ‘listen to/read’ REALITY mixed with brilliant wit (dare I say, Genius, as well…so, I’m giving thanks for all of you.)

    Jessie, thanks for the ‘heads up’… Smokey, gosh…yeah… we could go to that EU place and just laugh and laugh at that ‘faceless’ demagogue, ‘whats his name’… and Douglas… more brilliant thoughts, et al…et ALL.

    After thanking you all and praying for the Watt family ~ I’d like to say that I believe
    ‘two surgeries’ have taken place. One, in Europe and one in the U.S.A….that happened over the last ohhhhhhh……. let’s say, 20 years.

    In Europe, I believe WWII was meant to take the European people’s HEART. They were faced with such depravity and (most of them) lacked such COURAGE that rather than feeling sorry and saying so ~ they, instead chose to kinda ‘implode’ ~ ’cause there’s no way (even the Tin Man had one…) to exist devoid of emotions – hense, my ‘heart’ analogy. Since that time, Europeans have seemed pretty ‘heartless’
    to me…. (not to worry… Now, I’m gonna deal with America, too – as it’s only Truth and only FAIR…)

    When Clinton ‘dropped trou’ (pronounced TR-OW…short for trousers, guys.) NOTHING could’ve slapped Americans more…..’cept a semen stained dress which Monica gloriously revealed (sans dry cleaning) and we only remained angry and (MOST NOTICEABLY) SILENT… That’s when, in my opinion…… America was led into……….say……….oh…………The Cleveland Clinic……..and she had her spine removed.

    There she lay on the operating table…being told that ‘all of this was for her good’ and she was lulled off to sleep by the anesthesiologist’s gas… and her ‘doctors’ (Joseph Mengla (sp?) anyone???) took out her entire spine – from stem to stern, sotospeak.

    The real humiliation happened post surgery. She woke to endless indoctrinations
    that were supposedly supposed to be P.T. – but………..GUYS……………How are ya gonna ‘walk’……………HOW IS AMERICA GONNA WALK………… if she HAS NO SPINE LEFT???????????????!!!!!!!!!!!

    We can ‘listen to all the experts’ who have our dear lady Liberty strapped to the gurney with all the Nautilus equipment they ‘say’ she needs to walk once again ~
    but, you and I know that IN REALITY they’ve taken her SPINE and without a backbone ~ no matter HOW they ‘dress her up’ she’s gonna slime around like she’s
    an octopus, right???

    Point? You want a POINT to this STORY??? (don’t worry, I’m not gonna do ‘Hantzel
    and Gretal’ next……..it scared me too much………. THE POINT IS that the BRILLIANT INTELLECTS IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND EVEN FRIENDS OF THEIRS ‘GLOBALLY’ NEED TO GET ON THEIR KNEES IN PRAYER AND ‘KNOW’ THAT WE SERVE A GOD THAT CAN ‘RE-GENERATE’ THAT SPINE OF LADY LIBERTY’S!!!!!!!! She will STAND, she will SAUNTER, she will once again GET TO HER KNEES (a place I heartily recommend to us all) and then, be able to stand in COURAGE (NOT IN HOLLOW SELF-ADMIRATION, BUT WITH ‘THANKS’ THAT SHE RECEIVED FROM HER MAKER WHAT HE ALONE COULD GIVE HER – (I’m talking to ALL OF YOU COOL GUYS ON THIS SITE, NOW) She
    cries out to her God and says she’s sorry for allowing men and women with a filthy
    agenda to mark up the oval office rug… and SHE WILL STAND GLORIOUSLY ONCE MORE. And………then, (as this story goes) she can assist Europe ’cause by seeing U.S. they will get another HEART and gee wizz guys………..THEN, when ‘our Kenyan-in-Chief’ writes another book at Christ-mas………mebbe he will even entitle it – :
    “MY COUNTRY, TIS OF THEE – SWEET LAND OF LIBERTY – OF ‘THEE’ (not the two little daughters, right?) I SING.”

    ….Land where my father’s died, land of the Pilgrims pride, FROM EVERY MOUNTAIN-SIDE let freedom ring… Our Father God, to THEE, Author of Liberty
    to THEE we give PRAISE – LONG MY OUR LAND BE BRIGHT WITH FREEDOM’S HOLY LIGHT, PROTECT US BY THY MIGHT, GREAT GOD – OUR KING.

    Now, Gentlemen………….THAT’S a song that needs to be sung again rather than this crap ‘Obama-rocks’ stuff they’re feeding our grand kids in school…………isn’t it?

    Stand up where ever you may be – hit your knees (privately, of course) and apologize to GOD alone – and THEN, let’s watch Our Lady Liberty (miracle of miracles) get her new spine and then she’ll help her/our friends in Europe get a new Heart.

    God bless all you guys for putting up with me. (warm smiles)

    Cynthia Lauren Thorpe
    A PROUD AMERICAN living in beautiful Kingston SE, SA

  35. Looks like some more faxes to the incoming House GOP leaders are in order, to recommend strongly that there be NO money in ANY budget for ANY foreign aid expenditures tied in any way to climate treaties.

  36. Coalsoffire says:
    December 3, 2010 at 4:42 pm
    Yes Quinn,

    That video says a lot. It’s from a 1956 musical. Here we are nearly 55 years later and government hasn’t changed. I guess it never will.

    Most of what I’ve seen in the Guardian’s articles says that bribes and corruption are going on at the highest levels. Companies get slammed for those tactics yet the government does it with impunity. What a sad state of affairs.

  37. I read with interest, the comments of Tenuc and Paul Coppin. They are interesting viewpoints.
    I also see patterns emerging that are disturbing and the end result can be either anarchy or dictatorship at the extremes.

    Some countries have been very clever in benignly oversighting communications for the greater good and others to routinely restrict and control their citizens ability to access other than their approved internal propaganda as a method of repression and oppression.

    Unfortunately the “greater good concept” can be exploited and misused, this misuse can endanger democracies. For that reason (freedom and democracy) “whistleblowers” should be encouraged to expose abuses of the democratic process or fraudulent spin for the good of society.

    I too am concerned, that if whistleblowing becomes part of selective release, threats, blackmail or extortion or as a cover to personal gain, the public interest may not be served. Those activities can pave the way for restriction and reduction of traditional freedoms including, the freedom to express opinions and communicate with others.

    In Australia we are heading into the creation of a National Broadband Network with one choice, an easily monitored and controlled optical cable system to the individual, and the other proposal by way of satellite wireless communication user to the world, is ignored. The latter can still be monitored, but also privately encrypted by the user.

    It seems. we will not be allowed to have robust and open debate or choice before the costly process is undertaken, or even to debate the secret costing let alone the other pros and cons of both communications systems.

    If it wasn’t for the present freedom of access to the internet, and the ability of each of us to seek out alternative views of sceptical Scientists and other “citizen scientists” who were trying to be heard above a totalitarian clamour of the media and governments proclaiming a mythical “Consensus” ( their version of their political consensus) where would we be today. (and both sides acknowledge that fact!!)

    Remember also, that the creation of chaos provides opportunity to drive change, but not always the freedoms that we might prefer. We have already lost so many elements of freedom, in the name of security, threats, and agenda.

    Worth watching.

  38. Sioned L-
    “Can anyone copy these cables and post them in full here? I cannot ever get on the UK Guardian and Wikileaks is moving around shifting sand.”
    I’ts not likely that a the cables will be posted here because they are classified and therefore illegal to distribute; also there are copyright concerns. If your lawyer OK’s it you can get to wikileaks via the IP address 213.251.145.96. Fair warning, just reading the cables may impare your ability to get a security clearence which maybe required for employment irregardless if you are a US National or not.

  39. The guy behind the site is a d-bag, but his Philosophy is more or less correct.
    Leaks are needed, but need to be limited.
    [d]
    IMHO

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