EPA’s CO2 endangerment finding challenged today in the U.S. Senate

Excerpts from the:

Anchorage Daily News

Murkowski tries anew to block EPA regulators
By ERIKA BOLSTAD

http://countenance.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/lisa-murkowski.jpg?w=163&h=199WASHINGTON — Sen. Lisa Murkowski took her battle with the Environmental Protection Agency to the floor of the Senate today, saying she was left with no choice but to fight a federal agency she believes is “contemplating regulations that will destroy jobs while millions of Americans are doing everything they can just to find one.”

The Alaska Republican announced she would seek to keep the EPA from drawing up rules on greenhouse gas emissions from large emitters, such as power plants, refineries and manufacturers. Murkowski did it by filing a “disapproval resolution,” a rarely used procedural move that prohibits rules written by executive branch agencies from taking effect.

“If Congress allows this to happen there will be severe consequences to our economy,” Murkowski said. “Businesses will be forced to cut jobs, if not move outside our borders or close their doors for good perhaps. Domestic energy production will be severely restricted, increasing our dependence on foreign suppliers and threatening our national security. Housing will become less affordable.”

She was immediately countered by Sen. Barbara Boxer, chairwoman of the committee that has done the most work on climate-change legislation: the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee.

Murkowski’s disapproval resolution would essentially throw out the process by which the EPA found that greenhouse gases endanger public health, Boxer said.

She called Murkowski’s resolution an “unprecedented move to overturn a health finding by health experts and scientific experts in order to stand with the special interests.”

Murkowski has as co-sponsors 38 fellow senators, including three Democrats: Sen. Mary Landrieu of Louisiana, Sen. Blanche Lincoln of Arkansas and Sen. Ben Nelson of Nebraska.

Her move has prompted an aggressive response by environmentalists, who launched a radio and television advertising campaign in Anchorage and Washington, D.C., that focused on the role two industry lobbyists had in writing Murkowski’s original proposal last fall.


Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid also criticized Murkowski’s effort, saying recently during an event in New York sponsored by the Geothermal Energy Association that Murkowski’s proposal was “misguided.”

Video below:


170 thoughts on “EPA’s CO2 endangerment finding challenged today in the U.S. Senate

  1. Smart political move by Sen. Lisa Murkowski. But the best thing that could happen is for this to get thrown into the courts; Why? Discovery!

    Mike Ramsey

  2. a brief moment of sanity in US political life.

    Go girl go.

    Time to kick some EPA bureaucratic butt.

  3. countered by Sen. Barbara Boxer

    poll numbers show Sen Boxer does not have job security. November is coming soon

  4. Steve Goddard (16:07:30) :

    Apparently the Democratic leadership learned nothing from Massachusetts on Tuesday

    LOL!! Correct!

    They are clutching with white knuckles a ship that is going down

  5. Sen. Barbara Boxer called Murkowski’s resolution an “unprecedented move to overturn a health finding by health experts and scientific experts in order to stand with the special interests.

    Hog-waste, or hogwash >> These Democrats such as Boxer wouldn’t know a health expert or scientific expert from Al Gore. They spend so much time raising money to get re-elected that they haven’t learned anything new in years about science. They probably don’t even know about the bubbles in sparkling wine.

    Three cheers for Lisa Murkowski and the 38 co-sponsors, including the three Democrats: Sen. Mary Landrieu of Louisiana, Sen. Blanche Lincoln of Arkansas and Sen. Ben Nelson of Nebraska.

  6. What’s going on? Has the world just awoken from some huge progressive sleep?
    I hope people are finally realizing the nightmare huge government has in store for us!!!

  7. Wouldn’t a bill in the senate like this need 60 votes? If so just a token bill, with a message. I think the best place to get this EPA over thrown is ion the courts. Their findings would no way hold up in court. Why? The only epirical evidence they have is a flawed temperture record that says in the last 150 years the temperture has a 1/2 of one degree anamoly. And that doesn’t one any shape or form say all that maybe 1/2 degree was caused by GHG. We need to get this in the courts ASAP and it will be struck down in a heart-beat…John…..

  8. Wow! I have never seen this before. However, I want to hear the executive branch argue that elected representatives cannot challenge administrators.

    The debate ought to be a hoot.

  9. BTW, Senator Inhofe has the Head of the EPA on record in testimony to Congress saying that America acting unilaterally to reduce CO2 will do nothing to stop global warming.

  10. “Murkowski’s disapproval resolution would essentially throw out the process by which the EPA found that greenhouse gases endanger public health, Boxer said.”

    Hoorah to that!

  11. Lisa Murkowski is a courageous Alaskan woman. Alaskan women are generally tougher and more practical than the run of the mill american prima donna princess who can’t chance cracking her precious nails.

  12. Steve Goddard (16:07:30) :
    Apparently the Democratic leadership learned nothing from Massachusetts on Tuesday.
    Could they learn something from this, Steve?
    It runs to 149 PDF pages and, if read, digested and acted on, could yet snatch a political victory from the jaws of defeat for a lucky few!
    Anthony ran an extract for a recent thread. The full document is breathtakingly brilliant as it forensically dissects ClimateGate. Actions, actors and all.
    The document.
    Climategate Analysis From SPPI
    by John P. Costella 
    The link

    http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/reprint/climategate_analysis.pdf

    i’ve never heard of John Costella before but I’m just about to Google (or Bing) to complete my education.
    If you haven’t already done so, read the link. IMO, this will be regarded, by history, as a pivotal document of the 21st century.
    Thank you John.

  13. I am rapidly becoming a fan of Republicans! I hope that once they have my interest, they don’t go all faith-based white on me. On this same note, I am liking the new Mass. Senator Brown very much. What an interesting character. He has tweaked noses on both sides of the isle.

  14. The revelations of Climategate challenge the scientific authority of the IPCC and leave their moral authority in tatters.

    It’s time for the Supreme Court to reconsider Massachusetts vs. EPA where the majority opinion was based strictly on an appeal to authority argument.

  15. The EPA edict is about destroying our industry and standard of living. Nothing more.

    Now, who would benefit from destroying our industry. Anyone we know?

  16. Congress will not pass a bill in 2010 that would regulate and tax CO2. But the EPA can regulate CO2 unilaterly. Something is wrong with this picture. So, let’s support Murkowski. While I would hope the liberals would oppose her, I don’t think the smarter Democrats will, fearing for their re-election chances.

    Cbdakota

  17. I agree with Mr. Ramsay above. While I don’t have particularly high hopes that the case will be wholly successful, discovery will open a can of worms so distasteful to the American people that the EPA and the Administration will be forced to start from scratch on the science of greenhouse gasses.

  18. The Cattlemen of the United States have also filed a lawsuit in opposition to the EPA findings on CO2.

  19. Go Lisa go! We need to restore sanity to our country, and stop the hemoraging of out industrial base and job market.

  20. Lisa Jackson, the head of the EPA and the person who made the endangerment finding, has already said that she thought the whole matter would be best handled by the legislature…. though I’m not sure she would have anything good to say about this initiative.

  21. WOW!!!
    Congrats to the 38 senators on the resolution.
    Special congrats to Sen. Lincoln from the great State of Arkansas! (my home)

  22. Aren’t those the democratic Senators who got kickbacks in their healthcare bill?

    It seems that they are trying to save their careers now.

  23. When Dr. Charles Krauthammer first brought this to my attention, I wrote to my Michigan senators (both Democrats) pointing out that our state’s leadership in national unemployment would only be accelerated if this EPA ruling was allowed to stand.
    Not having received a response from either to them (surprise!), I now note that they are not part of the bi-partisan coalition to stop this insanity.
    Leadership in unemployment. No leadership in the Senate. Coincidence?

  24. Pamela Gray – “I hope that once (Republicans) have my interest, they don’t go all faith-based white on me. ”

    I take it you’re a troll? How can this possibly add to the conversation?

  25. The term “clear and present danger” comes to mind. CO2 is not a clear and present danger. See this link for the “latest” on ozone affecting the West Coast –

    http://www.brightsurf.com/news/headlines/51884/Study_links_springtime_ozone_increases_above_western_North_America_to_emissions_from_abroad.html

    “Springtime ozone levels above western North America are rising primarily due to air flowing eastward from the Pacific Ocean, a trend that is largest when the air originates in Asia.”

    Boxer needs to go to China.

  26. Can we put Babs in a box of pure argon. Please? No, I am not being serious, but Babs thinks argon is a laboratory not a gas.

  27. We have more to do to stop the hemorrhaging of jobs, but this measure is a start to stop the EPA’s attempt to take over legislation. The AGW agenda needs to be fought at every turn.

  28. Well one of the main climate researchers at NCAR, and an IPCC member Kevin Trenberth says adaptation should be the key strategy to deal with GW/AGW.

    When one of the top climate members who says there IS AGW also say that the effective thing to do about it is make sure we are able to adapt as needed that Should tell the world and especially the government that funds him not to kill business with a cap and trade bill. Especially a rats nest bill of choking red tape such as what came out of the U.S. House of Representatives. But since when do politicians listen to scientists, let alone have the ability to understand the actual matters.

  29. Not trying to spam, honest. But those GISS emails Judicial Watch received under FOIA has some amazing stuff. Would you believe GISS admits they have NO evidence of AGW in the US data (even though it is the best on the planet) and don’t expect to detect any evidence for 2-4 decades!

    http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/12532

    If true, NASA admitting there is no AGW in the US should be a boost to the case against the EPA!

  30. Maybe she saw this time series graph of Alaska annual mean temperatures which shows no warming in Alaska over the past 30 years.

  31. old salt (17:12:28) :
    Pamela Gray – “I hope that once (Republicans) have my interest, they don’t go all faith-based white on me. ”

    I take it you’re a troll? How can this possibly add to the conversation?

    Pamela, until recently was a life long democrat, proclaimed recently that she had turned independent. She’s also one of the most respected, and cleverest, commentators on this site.
    Methinks, Auld Saline, you’ve dropped a clanger! Never mind matey, you’re still welcome. You may have to put your hand in your pocket thought because of that gaffe!

  32. as soon as i hear “jobs” i stop listening.
    just more politics.

    nothing about science ?

    just playing the angles, so far.
    that will change.

  33. Harold Blue Tooth (16:17:35) :

    Steve Goddard (16:07:30) :

    Apparently the Democratic leadership learned nothing from Massachusetts on Tuesday

    LOL!! Correct!

    They are clutching with white knuckles a ship that is going down

    Not surprising – when have they ever learned from facts??? When your whole thought process is ideologically driven, facts are no consequence.

    I think that a lot of Democrats and some Republicans will find that not paying attention to the “political facts” of the american public’s mood will cost them their jobs next november.

    pride goeth before a fall…

  34. Here’s more news along the same lines:

    http://westinstenv.org/sosf/2010/01/21/the-epa-and-the-data-quality-act/

    The EPA and the Data Quality Act

    Last week Sen. John Barrasso (Wyo.), Sen. David Vitter (La.), Rep. Darrell Issa (Calif.) and Rep. James Sensenbrenner Jr. (Wis.) sent a letter to EPA Administrator Lisa Jackson expressing concern that the EPA’s recent “endangerment finding” regarding CO2 violates the Data Quality Act.

    I’m guessing you never heard of the Data Quality Act (DQA). I hadn’t, either, until today. The DQA is not an Act per se; it is a statute that was attached to an appropriations bill in 2000 (Section 515 of the Treasury and General Government Appropriations Act for Fiscal Year 2001 — Public Law 106–554; H.R. 5658). Section 515 directed the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) to:

    … issue government-wide guidelines that “provide policy and procedural guidance to Federal agencies for ensuring and maximizing the quality, objectivity, utility, and integrity of information (including statistical information) disseminated by Federal agencies.”

    The OMB did so by defining what the quality (including the objectivity, utility, and integrity) of information means, in the legal sense. The OMB guidelines also established:

    … administrative mechanisms allowing affected persons to seek and obtain, where appropriate, correction of information disseminated by the agency that does not comply with the OMB or agency guidelines. …

    The four Congresspersons cite the Climategate emails and IPCC 4th Assessment as information the EPA relied upon that does not meet the tests of the DQA. They requested that EPA Admin Lisa Jackson conduct a review of the information the EPA used in their endangerment finding, and that she report to Congress as the whether the DQA was violated. …

  35. 1. IPCC admits error on Himalayan glacier melt fiasco

    2. U.N. abandons Copenhagen deadline – countries not signing on – spokesman says the deadline has gone “soft”

    3. Scott Brown (Republican) wins Senate seat in Massachusetts

    4. Air America Radio files for bankruptcy

    5. Supreme Court rules against McCain / Fiengold extending First Amendment ‘rights’ to campaign spending.

    [b]And there are still two days left in this week[/b]

  36. old salt (17:12:28) :

    Pamela Gray – “I hope that once (Republicans) have my interest, they don’t go all faith-based white on me. ”

    I take it you’re a troll? How can this possibly add to the conversation

    nope. she’s a regular since before i discovered wattsupwiththat. but, this is typical. i just ignore it now.

  37. Finally some kind of common sense arrives in Congress. You have got to wonder why it is that it has taken til now to challenge a “finding” that a naturally occurring trace gas and the effervescent in beer, wine and soft drinks – is a POLLUTANT?? Good for you Lisa!

    The joy in this is only (slightly) countered by the very sad news that Air America has crashed into Chapter 7 BK. Golly, we… won’t miss ya at all.

  38. I’m ashamed that my senators from Texas didn’t think of this first. Good job, Lisa. Of course, Congress can always make an amendment to the Clean Air Act, which is the basis for EPA’s action (at least I think it is), stipulating that CO2 cannot be treated as a pollutant. To accomplish that, only a majority vote would be required (unless there is a filibuster). Whether the Pres would sign it is another matter, but by the time the litigation has run its course we will probably have a different President anyway.

  39. Godfrey Bloom: Master of the understatement.
    —————————————————————
    Godfrey Bloom exposes more global warming tax scammers

  40. Sorry oldsalt about my overuse of recently and underuse of reasonable grammar. I blame three things. One, using an iPhone with a screen comparable in area to half of my pebbled spectacles. Two, that you’d accused Ms G of being a troll.
    And fourthly, I sometimes lose the thread of my argument.

  41. Sen. Mary Landrieu of Louisiana, Sen. Blanche Lincoln of Arkansas and Sen. Ben Nelson of Nebraska.

    These Senators are in serious trouble in the polls. They are very likely to be voted out. I am thinking they are doing this to try to save their seat—I mean the part that goes in their seat.

  42. oyfomr (17:26:49) :
    old salt (17:12:28) :
    Pamela Gray
    Kirls (17:34:17) :

    etc,

    we could just make a third party, The Tea Party. :-)

  43. HankHenry (17:02:47) :

    Lisa Jackson, the head of the EPA and the person who made the endangerment finding, has already said that she thought the whole matter would be best handled by the legislature

    I am sure she said that when there was 60 Democrat votes.

  44. One more voice of sanity. How refreshing.

    Somebody needs to clip the wings of those EPA fools, and Sen. Murkowski seems up to the task.

    If I understand the Senate Rules, her presentation of the resolution is all that is needed. Nothign to vote on.

    Well any members of Congress, including Babs Boxer herself; sorry I should call her Madam, can interven to negate Murkowski’s resolution by simply offering a bill to be voted on by the Congress.
    What a radical idea, that the people who are elected to the Congress to make the laws (that’s why they are called the legislative branch) should actually write those laws, instead of unelected beurocrats in agencies.

    I’m for ALL legislation and rule making being specifically passed by the Congress, and removing all rule making authority from every government agency.

  45. a girl with a mind like a diamond
    a girl who knows what’s best
    with eyes that burn like cigarettes
    a girl with the right allocations
    who’s fast and thorough
    and sharp as a tack
    she’s touring the facility
    and picking up slack
    who uses a machete to cut through red tape
    with fingernails that shine like justice

  46. This is shaping up to be quite a week. We have a new all time record for speed, set by the Administration; from Inauguration to lame duck status and get it done with a full 24 hours to spare, in his first year. Congratulations Mr President.

  47. photon without a Higgs (17:49:38) :

    Sen. Mary Landrieu of Louisiana, Sen. Blanche Lincoln of Arkansas and Sen. Ben Nelson of Nebraska.

    These Senators are in serious trouble in the polls. They are very likely to be voted out. I am thinking they are doing this to try to save their seat—I mean the part that goes in their seat.

    ======
    IMHO, all the politicians are worried.
    as they should be.

  48. Mike D. (17:31:23)
    ‘They requested that EPA Admin Lisa Jackson conduct a review of the information the EPA used in their endangerment finding, and that she report to Congress as the whether the DQA was violated. …’

    That’s the best news I have had today.
    I would only hope our “Elected Elite” declare CO2 a non pollutant.

  49. Kirls (17:34:17) :

    “old salt (17:12:28) :

    Pamela Gray – “I hope that once (Republicans) have my interest, they don’t go all faith-based white on me. ”

    I take it you’re a troll? How can this possibly add to the conversation

    nope. she’s a regular since before i discovered wattsupwiththat. but, this is typical. i just ignore it now.”

    As a Rebuplican by necessity I can relate to what she is saying. It’s one thing to believe in G-d, as did our Founding Fathers, and yet another to inject specific doctrines into politics, as some of the overly zealous do.

    It’s important for America to realize that without G-d there is no America, but beyond that is a mine field to which few have the map.

  50. It seems that Senator Murkowski has shaken off the CO2 chains that bind so many politicians. Makes me proud. Now if she would do the same concerning the Law of the Sea Treaty, a back door environmental treaty, she could absolutely have her way with me, electorally speaking.

  51. photon without a Higgs (17:54:30) :
    oyfomr (17:26:49) :
    old salt (17:12:28) :
    Pamela Gray
    Kirls (17:34:17) :

    etc,

    we could just make a third party, The Tea Party. :-)

    I love Tea, Photon. It’s my very-nearly, bestest drink of all time.
    But if we’re talking parties then we need to break the ice with alcohol first.
    I’ll happily vote for a few hours of a good malt, followed by generous libations of vows of eternal friendship, finally topped by lashings of tea!
    But, with a ndp of photon without a higgs, l will barely shrug a shoulder of surprise when you suggest that we end the evening by singing that old Alex Harvey number; “going to the Boson Tea Party”
    :)

  52. IMO, the EPA attempting this is like if Homeland Security tried to grant amnsesty.

    They are going to get slammed.

  53. Come you guys in the US. You are the land of lawsuits. Sue the AGW alarmists to extinction for fraud, corruption, and unlawful biils in relation to CO2. Why not ban water vapor given it’s a far more potent greenhouse gas than CO2. using the logic of dumb AGW believers, water vapor is a poison too, right? Of course not. CO2 is essential to life. We actually need more if it to increase crop yields.

  54. She still doesn’t cut to the chase. Is it impossible for any public figure to just plain out say that man made global warming is not a real problem?

  55. FerdinandAkin (17:33:35) :

    1. IPCC admits error on Himalayan glacier melt fiasco

    2. U.N. abandons Copenhagen deadline – countries not signing on – spokesman says the deadline has gone “soft”

    3. Scott Brown (Republican) wins Senate seat in Massachusetts

    4. Air America Radio files for bankruptcy

    5. Supreme Court rules against McCain / Fiengold extending First Amendment ‘rights’ to campaign spending.

    [b]And there are still two days left in this week[/b]

    It has been an amazing week within an amazing past three months, hasn’t it?

    Pamela Gray (16:44:16) :

    I am rapidly becoming a fan of Republicans! I hope that once they have my interest, they don’t go all faith-based white on me

    I have found Pamela Gray to be anything but a troll. However, and what I ask affects many people on this site, we could profit from leaving religious beliefs out of this. There is no more committed atheist than me, and I have no trouble at all tolerating peoples’ religious beliefs–as long as they are willing to provide tolerance in return. Let us focus on the common enemy here:

    1) Corruption of science
    2) Economic stupidity
    3) Unrestrained government power
    4) Gullibility

  56. Al Fin (16:38:51) :

    Lisa Murkowski is a courageous Alaskan woman. Alaskan women are generally tougher and more practical than the run of the mill american prima donna princess who can’t chance cracking her precious nails.

    Apparently the only problem with Alaska women is there aren’t enough of ‘em.

  57. Once the EPA rechecks their data I’m sure they will find that the densest concentration of CO2 in the world originates from 535 exhaust ports found on Capitol Hill. One way the EPA could significantly reduce the denisty of CO2 worldwide is to invoke its special emergency superpowers and change the Constitution, to wit: henseforth each State shall be represented by one Senator and one Member of the House of Representatives – that’s 100. And just think how big their offices will be.

  58. Maybe Murkowski is a closet reader of WUWT. If so, stay sharp, ladies and gentlemen; she may be inviting other elected officials and their staff members to visit this site.

    And regarding this:

    “Harold Blue Tooth (16:17:35) :

    Steve Goddard (16:07:30) :

    Apparently the Democratic leadership learned nothing from Massachusetts on Tuesday

    LOL!! Correct!

    They are clutching with white knuckles a ship that is going down.”
    ——-
    Reply:
    A cult never learns; it either gets swept aside or self-destructs, often by intense infighting. Why? A foundation of sand.

  59. Do you know who owns Reuters? The Rothschild’s own Reuters. The Rothschild’s are fuming.

    “The prospect of Environmental Protection Agency regulation as well as a growing threat of nuisance torts may be enough to garner support for the bill among emitters, Karmali said.

    The cap-and-trade bill, expected to create a trillion-dollar carbon trading market, would cap carbon emissions and allow pollution permits to be traded.

    If the bill does not pass, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency may begin regulating carbon emissions for the first time.

    “Right now, companies have a stark choice in front of them. One path is a market-based approach through cap and trade, another is EPA regulation… In terms of trying to steer things toward a positive outcome, clearly, the Senate would be a more manageable forum,” Karmali said.

    In addition, a recent raft of climate-related tort suits which cite greenhouse gas emissions as a public nuisance may give some emitters additional incentive to support carbon control.”

    Carbon market exec still hopes for Climate Bill

    http://in.reuters.com/article/environmentNews/idINTRE60K72620100121

  60. We could all learn something from the MA special election. It is the democrats are willing to lose their majority in both houses in exchange for getting some of their agenda through. These things will require 60 votes to undo once they’re passed.

  61. - Murkowski’s disapproval resolution would essentially throw out the process by which the EPA found that greenhouse gases endanger public health, Boxer said. –

    I recall there was some discussion about the process used by the EPA at CA last year. Steve indicated that ”[the] EPA has to carry out some required processes in order to use a scientific assessment by an external party (mentioning international bodies). One of the requirements is that external party has to submit the assessment to EPA, together with the peer review record, following which EPA officials are obliged to evaluate the material to ensure that if complies with EPA standards.” There is some doubt as to whether the required process was actually followed. It is unclear if an external party actually submitted AR4. Perhaps the process used and any findings based on it should be “essentially thrown out”

    http://climateaudit.org/2009/06/23/climate-audit-submission-to-epa/

  62. I’m with Pamela… stay out of our bedrooms, stay out of our states, stay out of our pockets, stay out of our air… Say NO to big government…
    Leave almost everything except defense to the states… then we can choose whichever state we want…

    The NO Party

  63. gtrip (18:41:16) :

    “She still doesn’t cut to the chase. Is it impossible for any public figure to just plain out say that man made global warming is not a real problem?”

    She may not yet know that, but even if she does, saying it would dramatically reduce the chances of her success with this, because she needs to appeal to those who do believe it. They can be confronted later. If she doesn’t know it, she seems intelligent enough to accept it when shown the evidence.

  64. uk (us) 18:10 :58
    You are right on spot! There will be more trying to jump ship too!
    What a bunch of non patriots we have in congress. The folks in Neb., LA.,and Ar. better step to the plate and get rid of these people. I’m just a retired guy with lots of Military,a little science, and lots of sweat equity in this country and it is a real shame to see these “scientists” ripping off this country and these Congressmen and congresswomen doing what they are doing. We need real scientists and good representatives to lead this country and not a bunch of self-serving idiots in charge. Sorry -I’m fed up and exhausted with all this baloney.

  65. ‘They requested that EPA Admin Lisa Jackson conduct a review of the information the EPA used in their endangerment finding, and that she report to Congress as the whether the DQA was violated. …’

    Sounds like Penn state investigating MM, East Anglia investing Phil Jones, or the IPCC investigating climategate leaks. These are like investigating claims against yourself — they’re all conflicts of interest!

  66. The number one problem is jobs. This is part of the cause they borrow trillions.

    The Cap and trade bill is scheduled to kill several million more jobs. The EPA regs can kill a million jobs without the cap and trad bill.

    We must kill all CO2 producing animals to end production of CO2
    If we don’t we at least must kill the wild animals before they kill humans.

    I am a farmer and see they are on one hand terrified about extinction of species but do want to tax ag animals and let wild animals rule. Joe Romm on Climate progress is all upset on this. He hates women apparently the way he attacks Palin Lisa and Landrieau. But yes the EPA needs to be punished. They are the threat to society and civilization.

    The job killing portion doesn’t address the cost of the bill to poor and children.

    The bill will bring some of the sneaky moves out in the public.

  67. Kirls (17:34:17) :

    old salt (17:12:28) :

    Guys, you haven’t been here long enough. Pamela is no troll. She’s one of the most interesting and well educated contributors here. Her comment was not derogatory. But this crowd includes folks from all over the world, and of many political persuasions. Be respectful.

    Re: S Goddard comment: My thoughts exactly. This should drive a stake thru the heart of crap n tax.

  68. D Caldwell (17:03:38)

    To [re]quote one commenter over at Hot Air:

    “Wow! Amazing how right wing some democrats can get when they get a glimpse of their own tombstone, huh?”

    Elections do have consequences.

  69. Bryan H. (18:52:43)

    Yes he can.

    And he’ll be signing the death-warrant of MANY red-state democrats with that same pen.

  70. Anthony: If you think she is taking the right approach, how would you recommend that people indicate their support of her effort? Your website has a substantial following – perhaps you should set out a clear path for people to follow in this matter. It could be as simple as providing some appropriate email contacts/addresses.

  71. The warmist wackos have convinced Chavez that man causes weather and earthquake events.
    This is good. The EPA is convinced and James Hansen.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,583588,00.html

    Citing an alleged report from Russia’s Northern Fleet, the Venezuelan strongman’s state mouthpiece ViVe TV shot out a press release saying the 7.0 magnitude Haiti quake was caused by a U.S. test of an experimental shockwave system that can also create “weather anomalies to cause floods, droughts and hurricanes.”

    This explains California at this time. Ebil USA and conservatives.

  72. Wasn’t the EPA finding based entirely on the IPCC “science”?

    Given the well-deserved and self-inflicted problems that seem to keep popping up with the IPCC, it would seem a simple matter to overturn the EPA’s ruling.

    Given the well-deserved and self-inflicted problems that seem to keep popping up with AGW’s advocates in Congress, it would seem a simple matter to get rid of them and their taxpayer funded boondoggles to Copenhagen!

    If Obama and his AGW collaborators want to go on this crusade either by proxy/EPA or direct legislation, with 10%+ unemployment their majority will be gone long before we have an ice-free Arctic.

    Bye bye Barbara Botoxer!

    P.S. to old salt. Pamela Gray is a frequent guest and commenter to this site and I have no problem with her comments even when I don’t agree with them. While she sometimes takes contrary views I find her arguments are generally well-constructed (and at times very funny). I certainly don’t consider her a troll (and apparently the moderator didn’t either). If you know her and it was in good fun, then excuse my intrusion into your inside joke. If not, you might consider an apology for your own comment that added even less than hers….

    P.P.S. I’m a white, conservative, evangelical, Republican AGW skeptic who is happy to share my faith (and thoughts about climate) with others but who generally tries to keep faith and politics separated. That’s mainly because I don’t want to open the door to others’ faiths influencing my government in ways that run very counter to my own beliefs (ref. the cult of AGW).

  73. as i’ve not been able to access Xinhua in China for months, it was amusing to have the following open instantly; therefore i’ve pasted all the text.

    22 Jan: Xinhua China: NASA research finds last decade was warmest on record
    A new analysis of global surface temperatures by NASA scientists finds that January 2000 to December 2009 was the warmest decade on record and the past year was tied for the second warmest since 1880, the U.S. National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) said Thursday in a press release.
    Although 2008 was the coolest year of the decade because of a strong La Nina that cooled the tropical Pacific Ocean, 2009 saw a return to a near-record global temperatures as the La Nina diminished, according to the new analysis by NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) in New York. The past year was a small fraction of a degree cooler than 2005, the warmest on record, putting 2009 in a virtual tie with a cluster of other years –1998, 2002, 2003, 2006, and 2007 — for the second warmest on record.
    Looking back to 1880, when modern scientific instrumentation became available to monitor temperatures precisely, a clear warming trend is present, although there was a leveling off between the 1940s and 1970s, scientists find.
    In the past three decades, the GISS surface temperature record shows an upward trend of about 0.36 degrees F (0.2 degrees C) per decade. In total, average global temperatures have increased by about 1.5 degrees F (0.8 degrees C) since 1880.
    GISS uses publicly available data from three sources to conduct its temperature analysis. The sources are weather data from more than a thousand meteorological stations around the world, satellite observations of sea surface temperatures, and Antarctic research station measurements.
    The near-record global temperatures of 2009 occurred despite an unseasonably cool December in much of North America. High air pressures from the Arctic decreased the east-west flow of the jet stream, while increasing its tendency to blow from north to south. The result was an unusual effect that caused frigid air from the Arctic to rush into North America and warmer mid-latitude air to shift toward the north. This left North America cooler than normal, while the Arctic was warmer than normal.

    http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/sci/2010-01/22/c_13146524.htm

    the comments by readers are not buying freedman’s attack on coleman. do read them.

    they include this one from freedman:
    “Steve114z: You have a fair point, although I disagree with your assessment of the article. It’s hard to get around the fact that Coleman’s documentary was so misleading and erroneous that it actually cast doubt on the analysis in question. I acknowledged that, despite this, there may be some truth to the analysis, however, although NOAA and NASA dispute that. We will be covering this story as it unfolds.”

    Washington Post: Andrew Freedman: Capital Weather Gang Blog: John Coleman’s climate change conspiracy theory
    A new NASA temperature analysis to be officially released this week shows that 2009 tied with 2007 for the second warmest year in the 130 years of global thermometer records. The analysis, which was distributed by top NASA climate scientist James Hansen and published on the realclimate.org Web site on Sunday, also shows that 2009 was the warmest year on record for the Southern Hemisphere.
    In a separate analysis, the U.S. National Climatic Data Center (NCDC) found that 2009 tied with 2006 for the fifth warmest year on record. The two government centers use different data analysis methods, which accounts for the differences between the findings.
    However, according to a new one-hour local TV special from San Diego, hosted by KUSI-TV’s chief meteorologist John Coleman, both of the 2009 temperature summaries are fatally flawed. Coleman’s show trumpets a new report that alleges that federal climate agencies have been manipulating climate data for years in order to show more significant warming than has actually been occurring.
    “When you see a news report that the government has found that a certain month or season of the year was the warmest in history or that five of the warmest years on record were in the last decade, don’t believe it. Those reports were based on manipulated data,” Coleman states. “It hurts me to say this, but our nation’s primary climate data agencies, part of our U.S. government, are lying to us.” ..
    The report that Coleman features was funded by the Science and Public Policy Institute, and conducted by computer programmer E. Michael Smith and Joe D’Aleo, a meteorologist turned ardent climate skeptic who founded the skeptic web site icecap.us.
    Smith and D’Aleo’s work purports to show that when they process global temperature data, the main U.S. climate centers filter out cooler weather stations and add in warmer ones, among other techniques, to show more warming.
    “We can only surmise that it was done to show more warming,” D’Aleo tells Coleman about the alleged manipulation.
    Both NCDC and NASA dispute this assertion…
    Theoretically, the analysis could have some merit to it. But the fact that it was first revealed as “breaking news” in Coleman’s documentary, which any high school Earth science teacher would give a failing grade to, does not lend it much support.
    NCDC posted an explanation of its temperature analysis methods on its Web site on Jan. 15, and NASA’s methods are also posted online.
    Flimsy arguments
    There are many credible arguments against the conclusions of climate scientists and the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). Climate science, like any branch of science, is far from “settled.” But Coleman’s program, which you can watch online in four installments, offers nothing more than a loose collection of long-debunked arguments against the conclusion that human emissions of greenhouse gases are helping to cause global temperatures to increase, and features a parade of climate change skeptics who portray climate science as a giant conspiracy.
    There is healthy skepticism, and then there is paranoia.
    Coleman pins the bulk of his scientific argument on the fact that, according to historical records of temperature change and atmospheric composition, there is a lag between the rise and fall of carbon dioxide and the rise and fall of temperatures. But it is well known in the climate science community that carbon dioxide can act at various times as either a climate feedback or a climate forcing mechanism — that is, it can amplify changes already underway, or instigate them in the first place. This has been explored in numerous studies and has been explained by a wide variety of sources, including this 2007 piece at the Yale Forum on Climate Change and the Media, this page at NOAA, and Spencer Weart’s comprehensive “Discovery of Global Warming.”
    Yet Coleman still cites the feedback/forcing issue as evidence that human emissions of carbon dioxide do not cause climate change.
    “This is it, the basic scientific failure in the Al Gore IPCC global warming case,” Coleman states.
    Furthermore, Coleman claims he is being apolitical in his criticism of climate science, which is bizarre considering how overtly political his documentary actually is. In one moment, Coleman says the program is not about advocating a political view, yet in the next he says the number one reason for exploring the “other side” to climate science is because the EPA has classified carbon dioxide as a pollutant, and this, Coleman says, “will lead to major new taxes and fees…”
    “The EPA ruling may have a major impact on your way of life,” he warns viewers.
    The second reason Coleman gives for speaking out? Because the Senate may soon vote on cap and trade legislation, which he says will raise the costs of “everything that’s part of our lives today.”
    The third reason for his apolitical approach to climate coverage is also clearly political: United Nations negotiations on what he terms a climate change “tax treaty.”
    In this era of decreasing science coverage on TV newscasts, a full hour of television time devoted to climate change is a rare and precious commodity. It’s unfortunate that Coleman so thoroughly wasted the opportunity.

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/capitalweathergang/2010/01/a_new_nasa_temperature_analysi.html

  74. The EPA has absolutely got a fight on it’s hands. But I doubt they are up for it. This administration and it’s list of agenda items will be down for the count in a year.

    http://www.dtnprogressivefarmer.com/dtnag/common/link.do?symbolicName=/free/news/template1&paneContentId=5&paneParentId=70104&product=/ag/news/topstories&vendorReference=0353b2fa-34a2-481b-912d-1cb46058ad3a

    Excerpt:

    More than 150 ag groups sent a letter Wednesday to Murkowski and other senators backing the resolution. The letter stated, “Such regulatory actions will carry severe consequences for the U.S. economy, including America’s farmers and ranchers, through increased input costs and international market disparities.”

    The ag groups noted both the Bush administration and officials in President Barack Obama’s administration have stated that the Clean Air Act is not the appropriate legislation to regulate greenhouse gases. Yet, the EPA has pushed ahead with the endangerment finding and potential rules on greenhouse gases while attempting to push Congress to pass a comprehensive climate bill.

    The House passed a climate bill last June that would exempt agriculture from greenhouse-gas emission caps, yet most agricultural commodity groups oppose the bill because of potential costs. A Senate bill is stalled and likely set back further by the election Tuesday of a Republican to the Senate from Massachusetts.

    With agriculture potentially coming under the thumb of an EPA rule, the agricultural groups wrote that “compliance costs for these CAA programs would be overwhelming as millions of entities, including farms and ranches, would be subject to burdensome CAA regulations.”

    The ag groups added that the EPA also considers its own proposed rule as a “weak, indirect link between greenhouse gases and public health.” Further, EPA Administrator Lisa Jackson has stated that unilateral actions by the United States would have no material impact on global warming.

    Agriculture Committee Ranking Member Sen. Saxby Chambliss, R-Ga., said the EPA’s actions would cause farmers to “face significantly higher energy and input costs and take millions of (acres of) farmland out of production, just like the House and Senate cap and trade bills.

    “The actions EPA has taken and its plans to regulate greenhouse-gas emissions are basically a backdoor tax on every American family and business by unelected bureaucrats,” said Sen. Chambliss. “Some claim that EPA’s actions should scare Congress into passing a cap and trade bill, but I disagree. Congress should not be bullied into passing bad legislation and neither should it stand for an agency that is vastly overreaching. I strongly oppose EPA’s actions and intend to cosponsor Sen. Murkowski’s resolution of disapproval.”

  75. FYI, Mary Laundrieu (D) Louisiana is a co-sponsor. I am a very conservative Republican, but in order to save our country from this insanity, we must embrace and encourage the few sane Democrats still left.

  76. royfomr (17:26:49) : Pamela, until recently was a life long democrat, proclaimed recently that she had turned independent. She’s also one of the most respected, and cleverest, commentators on this site.

    Fully endorsed, Royfomr. Pamela is most certainly “one of the most respected, and cleverest, commentators on this site.”

  77. Hey, old salt, it’s odd that an ancient mariner would have such a thin skin. Pamela has seen many a strident declaration of belief, political and religious, on these pages, but I haven’t seen her lose her cool.
    I, for one, am always pleased to read her posts.


  78. Michael (19:01:53) :
    Do you know who owns Reuters? The Rothschild’s own Reuters.

    Can you prove this?

    (More than just Alex Jones-style hand waving that is.)
    .
    .

  79. Alaska seems to be the cool voice in the wilderness, I crack myself up. Maybe Sarah Palin will have a running mate.

  80. Steve Goddard (16:07:30) :

    Apparently the Democratic leadership learned nothing from Massachusetts on Tuesday.

    Apparently not. They didn’t learn when they lost Virginia either.
    Don’t it just figure that Boxer would lead the charge with her “settled science” endorsement of the EPA.

  81. yes, to stand with the “special interests” of the american people. it’s depressing that we actually need someone to stand up to these buffoons.

  82. April E. Coggins (19:33:18) :

    You’re right, April, the insanity has not infected all members of the Democratic Party. The few who joined Senator Murkowski are proof of that.

  83. Thank you, Senators Lisa Murkowski (R) and Mary Laundrieu (D), for having the courage to speak out and shame on you, Senator Barbara Boxer (D), for your support of EPA action that

    a.) Has no valid scientific merit, and
    b.) Threatens our national integrity.

    It appears that EPA Administrator Lisa Jackson and Dr. Rajenda Pachauri, Chairman of the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) are members of the same secret InterNational Academy of Propaganda (INAP).

    With kind regards,
    Oliver K. Manuel
    Former NASA PI for Apollo
    Emeritus Professor of
    Nuclear & Space Studies

  84. Pamela Gray (16:44:16) :

    I am rapidly becoming a fan of Republicans! I hope that once they have
    my interest, they don’t go all faith-based white on me.

    I was born and raised a liberal Democrat and then I discovered in 1994 how I was being lied to. The more I followed independent sources, the more lies I found. I would suspect that most everything that you “know” about Republicans was told to you by the same people that told you AGW was indeed the Revealed Truth.

    It seems obvious that if the “Legacy Media” was a part of the AGW hoax, then they have been a party to more hoaxes.

    This comment is intended in all good faith. I have followed your comments over the last year or so and respect what you have to say.

    It’s just that it pays to be sceptical of what we “know” and how we came to “know” it.

    Regards,

    Steamboat Jack
    PS
    I went off to Merchant Marine school in 1963 and retired in 1999 as Chief Engineer of a 32,000 shp steam turbine powered merchant marine ship. I guess that also would qualify me as an “old salt”.

  85. Michael (19:01:53):

    “Right now, companies have a stark choice in front of them. One path is a market-based approach through cap and trade, another is EPA regulation… In terms of trying to steer things toward a positive outcome, clearly, the Senate would be a more manageable forum,” Karmali said.

    Carbon market exec still hopes for Climate Bill

    http://in.reuters.com/article/environmentNews/idINTRE60K72620100121

    But Mr. Karmali, you forgot the third, significantly less stark and more likely outcome now – the one that sounds like a toilet being flushed !!!

  86. Like unions, the EPA started out with good intentions. I think the EPA should be abolished and we should start with a clean slate. As for Unions, they have far outlived their usefulness…

  87. old salt (17:12:28) :

    Pamela Gray – “I hope that once (Republicans) have my interest, they don’t go all faith-based white on me. ”

    I take it you’re a troll? How can this possibly add to the conversation?

    I take it you are new here? She’s a regular. Pamela sure as heck ain’t no troll!

  88. Just abolish the EPA, they have outlived their usefulness. They are not needed anyway, since every state has a Department of Environmental Conservation or the equivalent. The EPA has become an overbearing and destructive Man-Bear-Pig.

  89. My wife (a naturalized citizen) and I walked through cold rain and crappy slush to vote on Tuesday for Brown. We feared that what we were doing was a tilting-at-wind-mills effort, but we did it. Little did we know that when we won, the results would up-end the entire national and international geopolitical landscape (Obamacare, cap-and-trade, Copenhagen Accord). And now the EPA is on the ropes.

    Sweet!

  90. Ian (19:19:35) :

    Anthony: If you think she is taking the right approach, how would you recommend that people indicate their support of her effort? Your website has a substantial following – perhaps you should set out a clear path for people to follow in this matter. It could be as simple as providing some appropriate email contacts/addresses.

    I can’t speak for Anthony, but my suggestion is very simple. Contact her office and voice your support for her action, then call your own Senator, and respectfully ask them if they plan on supporting this resolution. If they say they have not made a decision, strongly (but politely) recommend that they do, and that you have lots of friends that will be making voting decisions based on how and who supports this move. Tell them in no uncertain terms that the EPA finding is based on nonsense and it will lead to years of legal action and a major backlash in upcoming elections.

    Then when you get off the phone sit down and write letters to and send them in too. Letters matter more than phone calls, but the time urgency of the matter, means they need to have their office staff tied up answering phones for the next week until the letters start to arrive. If your a registered Democrat tell them you are considering changing registrations based on recent behavior of congress.

    They are back on their heals right now, so push hard!

    Larry

  91. Hey Pamela,
    I can attest to the fact that all Republicans are not white, even in our state of Oregon. Religion is best left to the freedom we enjoy to chose our faith or lack of it.

    It has been relatively El Nino balmy on our side of the state, huh?

  92. Actually Old Salt, I kinda look like a troll…or an Irish Leprechaun, take your pick. I am more than an inch under 5 ft tall, more than half a century old, and have a very thick long mane of unruly red hair (you don’t know what a bad hair day is like till you’ve seen me at 5:30 AM). I have a voice much louder and deeper than my mini-me size and I work with middle school boys who have behavior problems. My goal is to become an Elementary Principal and I would so be your worst nightmare.

    PS, yes, I am looking for that center fold copy.

  93. Obama is obsessed with addressing climate change and will do whatever it takes to achieve that goal. He will veto any disapproval resolution that lands on his desk. There is no way around this without a two-thirds super-majority in both houses to override the veto. At this time, there are so many hard core liberals in Congress that this doesn’t seem very likely. This issue, as it pertains to the disapproval resolution process, is discussed on the Senate web site: http://tinyurl.com/yku9rrc (note: PDF)

    Here is an excerpt:

    Likely Need for Super-Majority

    A joint resolution of disapproval, like any other proposed law, may be enacted only through being presented to the President for approval. If Congress passes a joint resolution disapproving a particular rule, a President who favors the rule can veto the measure. In that case the rule will take effect, unless a two-thirds vote in each house overrides the veto.

    Experience shows that particular circumstances may arise under which this requirement may present little obstacle to congressional action. If, in the interim between promulgation of the rule and congressional action, a new administration unsympathetic to the rule assumes office, any disapproval resolution may not likely be vetoed in the first place. Congressional disapproval in 2001 of the ergonomics regulation proposed by the Clinton Administration in the previous year illustrates this situation. At that time, substantial congressional interest was expressed in using the Congressional Review Act to disapprove numerous other rules promulgated in the last months of the Clinton Administration as well. Although this interest did not result in other legislative action, some of the regulations in question were withdrawn or suspended by the new Bush Administration

  94. Pamela Gray (16:44:16) :

    I am rapidly becoming a fan of Republicans! I hope that once they have my interest, they don’t go all faith-based white on me. On this same note, I am liking the new Mass. Senator Brown very much. What an interesting character. He has tweaked noses on both sides of the isle.

    To find the main problem with the GOP over the past 50 or so years, research the Dixiecrats and where many of them went after their split party from the DNC failed. Some went back to the DNC, some swapped the (D) after their names for an (R) but in truth remained Democrats. A small number, Strom Thurmond among them, really did change – not just party name but their values and ideals. (Thurmond was a staunch segregationist, when he was a Democrat. The DNC never ever forgives or forgets a Party Member who truly defects.)

    The “moderate” Dixiecrats who saw the DNC stronghold in the southeast collapsing as they tried to maintain their segregationist grip, “switched” to the GOP just so they could get elected by people who just blindly vote for whomever has that (R) rather than bothering to dig in and find out what the candidate *really* is. (Same can be said for the folks who vote straight down the line for every (D)!)

    Today the GOP is very much infested with the ideological offspring of the Dixiecrats, especially when it comes to fiscal irresponsibility, as we saw under Clinton when the public voted in a large GOP majority in both houses to block Clinton’s excesses. Unfortunately too many of them were RINOs (Republican In Name Only, DINO for the Reps sporting the donkey pin just so they can get elected in a solidly DNC State.) who were all too eager to dive into the “public money” trough.

    Faced with what the “party of Lincoln” has become, it’s no wonder the Tea Party movement has become so popular. The DNC has jumped into the pit of socialism and communism – while the GOP has absorbed much of what was always rotten about the DNC, going back to the ideological roots of the Big Government Federalists of the 1700’s.

    P.S. Ronald Reagan *was* a Democrat. He was President of the Screen Actors Guild for five consecutive terms. I expect that being steeped in that culture for so long is why when he first ran for public office he joined the Republicans. Not as a RINO but a *true* Anti-Federalist Republican. Like Thurmond, the Democrats never forgave and constantly attacked him, still does so long after his death.

    P.P.S. I liken “climategate” unto the 1995 declassification of the “Venona Project”. Hollywood socialists/communists and their ilk spent much time and effort telling the Big Lie about Sen. Joseph P. McCarthy’s “persecution” of them. Nevermind that was the province of HUAC in the House of Representatives. McCarthy’s efforts were against Soviet communist spies and infiltrators in the government. Venona, which was intercepting and decoding communications between the Soviet government and their agents in the USA, proved that not only was McCarthy right, the problem was worse than he knew. Since 1995, the anti-McCarthy vitriol has pretty much died out to just the diehards who’ll never believe the truth. That’s evidenced by how badly George Clooney’s movie “Goodnight and good luck.” bombed at the box office. The majority have rejected the Big Lie.

    Compare to “climategate”. The documents show that not only have the AGW skeptics been right all along, the rot was worse than they suspected. The Web is helping tremendously to spread the truth and bypass the media and politicians who’re denying the truth and still trying to keep the Big Lie alive. Hopefully unlike the slow and gentle loss of steam of the McCarthy bashers, “climategate” will end AGW with a big bang rather than a whimper.

  95. Well, Pamela, I think I’m about 5 hours away from you so in some sense a neighbor on this site but still too far to drop by and partake of the popcorn and brew I’m sure you have been enjoying since your remark was posted. I wonder whether you had the popcorn popped before you posted or did it after the first reply by ‘old salt’? Here’s to ya!

  96. Pamela Gray: I am grateful you are happy with Republicans, even though you and I might disagree on other issues. Particularly in this instance. We need more folks like you and Jerry in Boston to help restore sanity to science and politics. And Jerry in Boston, you’re not “tilting at windmills.” No one who exercises the freedom of the vote ever does that. Some folks in California need to do that with Barbara Boxer, because she’s full of it.

  97. Obama said carbon was polluting the waters we drink and the air we breathe.

    Boxer said yesterday that challenging the EPA finding of CO2 is a pollutant was a:

    “unprecedented move to overturn a health finding by health experts and scientific experts in order to stand with the special interests” that carbon dioxide is a pollutant.

    If we banned carbon dioxide, the pollutant of which they speak, life on earth would cease.

    Living a human life will now be a pollutant to the planet and subject to regulation.

    Since we pay for your health care, we get to play insurance company. We get to further regulate your life.

    You must know, it isn’t about you anymore. It is now about us, and we get to vote.

  98. “She was immediately countered by Sen. Barbara Boxer, chairwoman of the committee that has done the most work on climate-change legislation: the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee.
    Murkowski’s disapproval resolution would essentially throw out the process by which the EPA found that greenhouse gases endanger public health, Boxer said.
    She called Murkowski’s resolution an “unprecedented move to overturn a health finding by health experts and scientific experts in order to stand with the SPECIAL interests.”

    Whose ****** special interests, Barbara??

    Those grass-roots efforts to combat YOURS??

    Can you people believe this BS??? That is why this whole demonization of CO2 will go down as one of the most embarrassing moments in the history of science.

    Barbar Boxer……Go to ****!

    Chris
    Norfolk, VA, USA

  99. Pamela Gray (16:44:16) :
    I am rapidly becoming a fan of Republicans! I hope that once they have my interest, they don’t go all faith-based white on me.””

    Not al of us are like that, Pamela. You may have heard the old folksy maxim: A Republican….is just a Democrat….who has been mugged.

    LOL.

    Hopefully all the reasonable Repubs and Demos will latch on to Sen. Murkowski’s bill.

    If they have half a brain, they will.

    CHRIS

  100. old salt (17:12:28) :
    Pamela Gray – “I hope that once (Republicans) have my interest, they don’t go all faith-based white on me. ”
    I take it you’re a troll? How can this possibly add to the conversation?”

    I don’t like to resort to ad hominems but whoever this OLD SALT individual is has uttered one first.

    No….Old Salt…..you are wrong wrong wrong in your hasty foolish assumptions. She is one of the smartest, most prescient, and honest contributors on here.

    What do YOU have to say of substance??? I thought so.

    Nothing.

    But if you are half a man….you will apologize for your remarks.

    You can redeem yourself by admitting your mistakes, apologizing, and moving on.

    Chris
    Norfolk, VA, USA

  101. Steve Goddard (16:07:30) :
    “Apparently the Democratic leadership learned nothing from Massachusetts on Tuesday”

    There’s no chance of any learning happening.

    I’m an expert and have intensely studied our current democrats over the past 20 years.
    They don’t do the learning thing.
    They gave that up, if not before, certainly soon after Bill Clinton gave up his own sweeping change efforts.

    Today’s democrat leadership, at every level, is a dysfunctional machine which attempts to feed the progressive movement which marches further to the left every day.
    Liberals and moderates now appear nearly conservative by comparison.
    This week , after Mass and the SCOTUS ruling these progressives have broken their last links to sanity and attacked everyone in sight.
    Next week, next month and next election Democrat leadership will be learning nothing but how to be attacked by their own and how to lose.
    Of course I could be wrong at it will all be really nifty for them.

    But there will be no universal health care,
    no cap and trade or carbon taxes,
    no amnesty and nothing but brutal condemnation for the trails of terroists in public courts.

    Meanwhile the Obama administration will be in a near comatose mode attemtping to deal with cronic unemployement and wars they cannot end.

  102. Pamela Gray (16:44:16) :
    I am rapidly becoming a fan of Republicans! I hope that once they have my interest, they don’t go all faith-based white on me.””

    Pamela I think your on topic comments are very informative, however you go over the edge now and then with these.
    However, however, with Pat Robertson’s recent comments, I have to give you a pass today, no even a cheer. Just for today though, please mind your manners tomorrow, (-:

  103. A word in support of Old Salt:

    Yes, Pamela’s scientific contributions are erudite — one of the reasons I come here is to ‘get educated’ by people who know so much more than I do.

    But I think it would be a reasonable assumption to make that a remark that seems to use ‘faith-based’ and ‘white’ pejoratively was trollish.

    I don’t want to go attributing motives to anyone but I’m sure nobody needs to publicly flagellate themselves over anything, no matter whether they’re long-time contributors or newcomers.

    And I only came on here to post a link to the Scott Brown photos (for the further education of all, especially of the female persuasion)!

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1244600/The-Cosmo-centrefold-rocked-Obama-Battle-save-health-reforms-ex-model-wins-Senate-seat.html

  104. Fraizer (18:01:51) :

    Give Pamela a break. She just saw Browns Cosmo spread.

    I heard an interesting comment on the radio by a host right after his election: “He … Could … Go … All … The … Way!”

    Wow!

  105. Pamela Gray (21:19:42) :

    Actually Old Salt, I kinda look like a troll…or an Irish Leprechaun, take your pick.

    Och wee lass! A Leprechaun is a far better visual, though I wasn’t aware there were varieties other than Irish, unless you are referring to the Irish branch as one race of the faerie folk. :-)

  106. John F. Hultquist (21:42:18) :
    ‘I wonder whether you had the popcorn popped before you posted or did it after the first reply by ‘old salt’? Here’s to ya!’

    John, you will have to ask Pamela Gray if popcorn is appropriate with red wine.

  107. Pyeatte (19:57:52) :

    I am sure glad Russia sold us Alaska back in the 1800s. Good stock those Alaskan women

    Saw this and haven’t read to the end of comments yet. So if someone beat me – GOOD!

    How much do you think the White House would sell Alaksa back to Russia for just now?

  108. I’m confused:
    Humanity is evil.
    The evil of humanity is causing the the world to get warmer.
    The world getting warmer will destroy humanity.
    Therefore global warming is… BAD.
    Hmm.

  109. Now I sure wish the nice lady Senator hadn’t made Barbara Boxer and the White House mad. I’m sure it won’t be long before they sell Alaska back to the Russians or put it up as colateral on a loan with the Chinese for a few million yuan. I also have a feeling that Hawaii may soon be up for sale; along with the West Coast and that little purchase Jefferson made a few years back; and that Spain is showing some interest in Florida. Too bad the Brits aren’t well off enough to make an offer on the East Coast anymore, but there’s a wee chance the Saudi’s may offer some camels for it… ain’t life a beach?

  110. Daniel H (22:36:13) :
    @Pamela Gray

    “PS, yes, I am looking for that center fold copy.”

    Here you go, enjoy!

    http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/thegaggle/archive/2009/09/15/gop-senator-s-racy-pics-don-t-matter-because-he-s-a-dude.aspx

    He he :-))

    Article was published September 15, 2009. If you look beyond the pictures you’ll see that Katie Connolly must now be kicking herself for that last paragraph!

    In the end, there are many reasons why this photo won’t matter much in this campaign─not least of which being that Brown’s chances of winning Kennedy’s seat are minuscule. But it probably won’t matter much to the rest of his career, either. It’s just one of the advantages of being a dude.

  111. 1) I disapprove of the EPA’s endangerment finding.
    2) I support Pamela Gray.

    Scott won Mass. by winning the independent vote. In recent national polls it was the independents, not democrats or republicans, who had made the biggest movement away from climate alarmism in the the last few years. Attacking climate alarmism and being more right-of-center than right-wing is a winning strategy in the fall.

  112. Congress can defund the EPA – and the whole thing would fall apart. Congress can deem the EPA rules useless by taking all the money away. Let’s hope.

  113. 5:30 AM: …just…saw…pic…ture…

    Now that I’m awake, just wanted to add that Old Salt needs send me no apology whatsoever. I wasn’t offended! And funny someone should mention popcorn. These days I pop a bag before I even turn the puter on!

  114. For whatever it is worth at this point, it was the Massachusetts suit against the EPA on CO2 emissions and global warming consequences for the Bay State, and the Supreme Court ruling that EPA had the authority and obligation to regulate greenhouse gasses, that prompted the endangerment finding. The opening paragraph of the ruling states that reputable scientists believe the science is settled, and CO2 is the most important greenhouse gas.

  115. Curiousgeorge (19:29:17) :

    More than 150 ag groups sent a letter Wednesday to Murkowski and other senators backing the resolution. The letter stated, “Such regulatory actions will carry severe consequences for the U.S. economy, including America’s farmers and ranchers, through

    Curious: The NAtional Corn Growers has announced they are against Cap and Trade. That is truly a sea change . They must smell blood in the water to do this. The day Farmers Union comes out against Cap and trade I’l send you a Prime Angus steak

  116. Yeah, it appears the women have the balls… More power to the people and once transparency becomes demanded… well, good bye bho; have fun in jail.

    I find it comedic that bho says he’s against campaign contributions…lol. Didn’t he have the largest campaign in history? How many lawyers gave him money?

    The EPA and DoEd need to fade away–sure not EVERYTHING the epa does is bad, just MOST.

  117. Harold Blue Tooth (16:14:44) :

    Alaska seems to be producing brave women

    Smart ones too, in this case.

  118. Murkowski has not gone completely Inhofe on AGW yet but she is rapidly moving that direction. Her staff is not there yet either. One of them was on a local Anchorage talk show yesterday afternoon and they believe they can get 51 votes necessary to pass the resolution. For some reason that I missed (perhaps because the resolution does not involve money or any change of law), the filibuster does not apply here.

    Conservatives can stop this completely by simply retaking the majority in the House. And they can do it without winning a majority in the Senate. Should they regain a majority in the House, all they have to do is decide not to fund any EPA rule-making or enforcement action that has to do with AGW / carbon dioxide. Only the House can originate spending. The Senate can jump up and down and scream bloody murder, as can the administration, the greens, the media and the EPA; but they cannot originate the spending for this.

    Want to strangle this beast? Defund. Disobey. Default.

    The fun part of all this ought to be the civil lawsuits against it by the corporate world and by the individual states. As mentioned previously, discovery won’t go well for the AGW grant recipients.

  119. Maybe it’s a multiple taboo to report a religious statistic from Wiki, but:

    Compared with general population

    The most basic breakdown … indicates that 87% of the Senate is Christian (compared with 79.8% of the population) and 13% of the Senate is Jewish[citation needed] (compared with 1.4% of the population[citation needed]). According to the data, no Senator falls under the category “No Religion/Atheist/Agnostic” – a category embodied by 15.0% of the U.S. population according to the 2001 Census.

    There are two problems with politicians taking the reins on AGW. First they’re wrong. Second, they don’t really know. They just think they do. Isn’t this a case for a more agnostic senate? We could use a few more.

  120. Re
    on the “EPA’s CO2 endangerment finding challenged today in the U.S. Senate” thread there are 2 posts that have very interesting data that might be worth a Thread of their own.
    The first is by Mike Ramsey
    Mike Ramsey (18:12:07) :

    [Sen. Barbara Boxer] called Murkowski’s resolution an “unprecedented move to overturn a health finding by health experts and scientific experts in order to stand with the special interests.”

    Unprecedented? Oh no, there is a precedent for overturning a health finding by health experts.

    http://cei.org/news-release/2009/06/25/cei-releases-global-warming-study-censored-epa

    Mike Ramsey

    Mike has a very good point, wouldn’t it be great if that report was sent to Sen. Lisa Murkowski.

  121. Isn’t this a case for a more agnostic senate? We could use a few more.

    Correction (then I’m done): should read: “We could use a few (agnostics).” There are presently NONE. ZERO.

  122. Pamela Gray (16:44:16) :
    On this same note, I am liking the new Mass. Senator Brown very much. What an interesting character. He has tweaked noses on both sides of the isle.

    Do you suscribe to Cosmopolitan? It appears he’s tweaked more than noses! :~O

  123. After listening to Senator Murkowski’s address, it seems unlikely that she opposes CO2 mitigation in principle. At 20 minutes in, she reminds the senators that “I co-sponsered a cap & trade bill – and that bill, unfortunately has been languishing on the senate floor for 8 months now, just waiting to be called up, which is a real shame, because it would lead to significant emissions reductions.”

    In her closing remarks she states: “We are being presented with a false choice between unacceptable legislation and unacceptable regulations. A number of senators are trying to develop bills that can be signed into law. But even as that work continues the EPA endagerment finding has opened the door to further economic damage.”

    I have no information as to the content of these other bills, but the likely outcome seems to be this: the senate will pass Murkowski’s disapproval, and at some point one of the previously alluded to bills will be passed to the senate for approval. Finally, a version of cap & trade will be signed into law.

  124. Graeme From Melbourne (17:30:43) :

    “…Not surprising – when have they ever learned from facts??? When your whole thought process is ideologically driven, facts are no consequence.”

    Unfortunately the Democratic party is not ideologically driven, they are a Trojan horse that is money driven by the big corporate cartels. Corporations WANT regulations THEY control through puppets heading the government agencies and that stiffle competition. The upper echelon of the left uses the ideology as a cover to support their drive towards corporatism.

    Here is an example:
    Clinton, Food and the World Trade Organization: (The repercussions of this are seen in world wide bankrupting of farmers and consolidation of the food supply)

    The IPC (International Policy Council on Agriculture, Food and Trade) was created in 1987 explicitly to drive home the GATT agriculture rules of WTO at Uruguay talks and to push international food and Ag regs  http://www.publiceyeonscience.ch/images/the_wto_and_the_politics_of_gmo.doc

    These are the people who worked for Clinton during that time:
    Ann Veneman employed by Monsanto (Calgene), lead the GATT trade delegation and is an IPC Member Emeritus. She also worked for Patten Bogg “We were among the first law firms to recognize that all three branches of government could serve as forums in which to achieve client goals, enabling us to emerge as the nation’s leading public policy law firm, and we have developed our extensive business law capabilities into the firm’s largest practice area.” Patton Boggs

    Mickey Kantor US trade representative (USTR) for the Uruguay Round of negotiations, became a Monsanto board member.

    Robert Shapiro, chairman of Monsanto, was lead advisor for Clinton’s Committee for Trade Policy and Negotiations when WTO was ratified in 1995.

    Marcia Hale, a former assistant to President Clinton and director for intergovernmental affairs, was director of international government affairs for Monsanto.

    Dan Amstutz VP of Cargill wrote the draft “WTO Agreement on Ag.” as a US trade representative. He also wrote the “Freedom to Farm Act of 1996” that did away with US food reserves and removed over production controls on grains. Cargill then exported these tax susidized grains to third world countries. They were sold below production cost, bankrupting local farmers http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/health/food/news.php?q=1212803067

    What was IPC pushing??
    “Measures to trace animals…to provide assurances on…safety ..have been incorporated into international standards… The Agreement on the Application of Sanitary and Phytosanitary Measures…Aims to ensure that governments DO NOT USE QUARANTINE AND FOOD SAFETY REQUIREMENTS as Unjustified trade barriers… It provides Member countries with a right to implement traceability {NAIS} as an SPS measure.” http://www.oie.int/eng/publicat/rt/2002/WILSON.PDF

    “Development of risk-based systems [HACCP] has been heavily influenced by the WTO Agreement on the Application of Sanitary and Phytosanitary Measures ” OIE report Oct 2008 http://www.oie.int/eng/normes/mcode/en_chapitre_1.6.1.htm

    In 1993, International HACCP guidelines were developed by the Codex Alimentarius, a joint Programme of FAO & WHO. FAO This system replaced US food regs in 1996. (HACCP & open borders account for the increase in tainted food) http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/005/Y1579E/y1579e03.htm

    September 2008 FDA on International Harmonization:
    “Failure to reach a consistent, harmonized set of laws, regulations and standards within the free trade agreements and the World Trade Organization Agreements can result in considerable economic repercussions.” FDA: http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~comm/int-laws.html

    Want more connections?
    January 2005: Guide to Good Farming Practices: From Report of the Meeting of the OIE (Paris, 17-28 January 2005) OIE: http://www.alternet.org/environment/135002/will_new_food_safety_bills_really_outlaw_backyard_gardening_and_end_farmers%27_markets/www.oie.int/boutique/extrait/25berlingueri823836_0.pdf?PHPSESSID=64969a28688594daf57a7263f42fb1ce

    Once The Guide to Good Farming Practices was written, we get the bill: Safe and Secure Food Act of 2005: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=s109-1534

    Also in 1995, USDA’s Food Safety & Inspection Service wrote a 600 pg Doc “Farm-To-Table – control of every step in the food chain from production to home preparation.”

    Now that the Democrats are back in power in the USA we get over a half dozen bill introduced into Congress to complete the take over of the food supply by the corporations. Then there is the bio-fuel scam that allowed Cargill and Monsanto to reap record profits in 2008 when the price of grains were doubled and tripled. (Also caused food riots in third world countries who no longer had native farmers to grow their own food)

    “Ten corporations now control nearly every aspect of the world’s food chain. Four control 90 per cent of the world’s exports of corn, wheat, tobacco, tea, …” http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/1997/jun/20/johnvidal

    Kissinger put it bluntly “Control oil and you control nations; control food and you control the people.” And that is what we are seeing today. It is no coincidence that Congressman Waxman sponsored both Cap and Trade and a food control bill designed to bankrupt farmers.

    This bit of information is very good for waking up the progressives and socialists to what the upper echelon of the left is actually up to. AGW causes heated debates but the threat to the world wide food supply opens eyes.

  125. ShrNfr (17:19:35),

    Argon is a laboratory, a U.S. National Laboratory, located in West suburban Chicago. It’s an old institution. I cut my physics teeth there when I was in High School, and I’ve been around for over 65 years.

  126. Health experts who say CO2 is a danger to our health need to lose their jobs. I bet they’re paid by tax money. Shame on them.

  127. @ Bill McClure (07:19:15) :

    Curiousgeorge (19:29:17) :

    More than 150 ag groups sent a letter Wednesday to Murkowski and other senators backing the resolution. The letter stated, “Such regulatory actions will carry severe consequences for the U.S. economy, including America’s farmers and ranchers, through

    Curious: The NAtional Corn Growers has announced they are against Cap and Trade. That is truly a sea change . They must smell blood in the water to do this. The day Farmers Union comes out against Cap and trade I’l send you a Prime Angus steak”

    I’m gonna hold you to that. :) Hard to get a good steak hereabouts.

  128. Not precisely on topic, but a good editorial anyway. Especially since so called “Industrial Farming” often comes under fire from know-nothing econut city kids raising hell about methane, animal cruelty, etc. .

    http://www.dtnprogressivefarmer.com/dtnag/common/link.do?symbolicName=/ag/blogs/template1&blogHandle=editorsnotebook&blogEntryId=8a82c0bc26532907012655f17b5c0022&showCommentsOverride=false

    ————————————————–
    Quote:
    All too often these days farmers are writing in worried about commercial agriculture’s negative public image. Increasingly, they complain, people who know only what they read in the national media believe modern agriculture ravages the environment, abuses animals and produces food that causes obesity and endangers public health. What, the farmers ask, can DTN do to tell the other side of the story?

    The problem, I typically respond, is we can’t influence folks who live in cities and have no connection to agriculture. They don’t read DTN and The Progressive Farmer. Our audience is you — people who know the real story of farming, both the good and the bad.

    And yet, pondering this dilemma further, I realize that while the farm media can’t influence the general public’s opinion, farmers can. Farmers have a persuasive, underused tool at their disposal — their own farms. If farmers want to win the battle for hearts and minds, they should invite the public to come tour their operations.

    Why do I think visiting farms would give city dwellers a more favorable view of agriculture? Because it’s had that effect on me.

    I’m a typical city boy; after all, my name is Urban. I grew up in Grand Rapids, Mich., (population 200,000), and live in Omaha, Neb., (population 400,000). In between I lived and worked in even bigger cities — New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, Washington, Tokyo, Detroit, Brussels, Hong Kong. I read the New Yorker and the Economist, the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal, the Los Angeles Times and the Washington Post.

    If all you knew about me was that, you might expect me to hold a simplistic and wholly unfavorable view of corn, soybean and livestock agriculture. I don’t, and one big reason I don’t is I visit farms.

    I’ve witnessed the efforts of corn and bean growers to prevent runoff. I’ve toured large hog and dairy operations that use anaerobic digesters or otherwise manage manure carefully. I have seen, with my own eyes, commercial farms that respect animals and protect the environment.

    Let others — lots of others — see what I’ve seen and they’ll be more sympathetic, too.

    Mike Beard and his son Dave are examples. The Beards run 33,000 hogs each year on their wean-to-finish operation in Frankfort, Ind. They’ve worked hard to make it a model of environmental good practices — and in the process reduced odor to the point that only when you enter the hog barn do you know you’re on a hog farm. The Beards are proud to give tours to groups of students, politicians and others. It’s a chance, they say, to “tell agriculture’s story.”

    Larkin Martin doesn’t give many tours, but she does tell ag’s story to large numbers of people. Martin farms several thousand acres of cotton, corn, soybeans and wheat in Courtland, Ala. She gives talks on the environmental benefits of precision agriculture and other environmentally friendly modern farming methods that are little understood by city dwellers. Her audiences have included the Birmingham, Ala., Rotary Club and several other civic and garden clubs. Too often, she thinks, farmers talk among themselves but not to outsiders. “It’s up to us,” she says, “to tell our story outside of our own group.”

    Can efforts like these, which touch a few dozen or hundred people at a time, turn the tide? Well, one small step followed by another and another and another is the way any large task gets done. And at some point, you get the snowball to the top of the hill and it rolls down the other side, getting bigger and gaining speed as it goes. The mainstream media, which has sympathized with agriculture’s critics, will start covering the farm visits, exposing larger audiences to a more balanced message.

    For a variety of reasons, from personal shyness to a love of privacy to fear of unintended consequences, some farmers will feel uncomfortable hosting visitors and playing the role of spokesman for agriculture. Fair enough. It only takes a few in each region to make a difference.

    Seeing is believing. To feed the world’s rapidly growing population, big commercial agriculture is essential, but it does take a toll on the environment. When people see all the things producers are doing to minimize that toll, when they hear from sincere, informed farmers how dedicated they are to producing nutritious food with minimal harm to the environment, their view will change.

    It may take years, but so does any effort to move public opinion. The sooner farmers get started telling their own story, directly to the public, the better.

  129. I wonder if the EPA had issued an edict that banned wind generators from construction in areas of this country because of visual pollution, would those members of congress who now support CO2 as a pollutant remain silent or demand a congressional investigation into the usurping their role ? It seems that congress has been willing to allow activities that should be part of the legislative process to be usurped by the administration by fiat or by activist courts as long as it benefited their own agendas. For example, the Massachusetts legislature rapidly changed the election law so there could be an immediate replacement election for the seat held by Senator Kennedy. They were sure that they would win the election. But, they didn’t think about what would happen if they lost. Now, they have essentially lost their opportunity to ram a health care program though congress and probably have lost the will to pass cap and trade. This decision by the EPA could ultimately back fire on the current administration if the true cost of enforcing the edict begins to impact an already weak economy. Arrogant representatives are not able to anticipate the unintended consequences of their decisions because they only listen to what tickles their ears. What is really needed is a congressional hearing on TV instead of a disapproval resolution. That will provide an opportunity to openly reveal to the people of this country the utter foolishness of naming CO2 as a dangerous pollutant as well as the devastating impact on the US econony !

  130. Anthony: If you think she is taking the right approach, how would you recommend that people indicate their support of her effort? Your website has a substantial following – perhaps you should set out a clear path for people to follow in this matter. It could be as simple as providing some appropriate email contacts/addresses.

    This is no movement with leaders.

    Take action on your own. Anthony does plenty by providing news and information.

  131. starzmom (06:41:19) :
    ‘…… the Supreme Court ruling that EPA had the authority and obligation to regulate greenhouse gasses, that prompted the endangerment finding.’

    That’s not how I read the decision. From my understanding, the EPA Could regulate any substance coming out of an exhaust pipe as long as they (EPA) show that substance harmful.
    Example: Water dripping out of hydrogen car’s tailpipe, causing black ice, causing too many accident, causing too many deaths and dismemberment, causing the cost of health insurance rates to increase.

  132. Saying you are a Christian in your political bio is like kissing babies. You gots to do both if you want votes. I wonder what the real beliefs are and who would dare post them on their political web site. And whether or not ANY politician would stick to them in a voting war.

  133. Just to add to the gloom and doom. I excerpted from a progressive site, not liberal, progressive, that predicted a double dip recession. The excerpt was from the 18th of this month.

    http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2010/01/cratering.html

    The Democrats are panicked and on the verge of breaking. By this summer I expect them to be in full rout mode.

    This proposal by Murkowski may have a good chance of passage in the House and might even squeak through the Senate by summer. If not sooner.

  134. Gregg E. (21:24:12) :
    Re: Your PPS. If it was the Russians who stole recovered the CRU documents, that would be deliciously ironic.

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