Final vote: 219 Yea, 212 Nay
Lets hope for defeat in the Senate. The list of votes is below.
As they say, making legislation is like making sausage. There’s a final product, but you surely don’t want to see the ugly process of it being made.
Today, those of us watching CSPAN, saw the ugliness of the sausage factory.
Here is the link to the vote tally:
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2009/roll477.xml
Let’s not HOPE for defeat in the Senate. Let’s WORK for the defeat of this travesty. And in 2010, sweep out every Congressman who voted in favor if this. That will be all of my delegation.
By playing this thing as a Democrat Vs Republican thing many of you fall into the trap that has been set by those who know how to use the political spectrum to their advantage.
This should be about rationalism, science and liberty versus superstition, cronyism, elitism and tyranny. That should be your goal if you all care about this issue at all.
I’m sorry to see this, hope you yanks can do better on the next stage.
A sausage? I was thinking more along the lines of a fowl such as our goose is cooked. Now we’ve got to hope for some sanity out of the Senate after they get back to business in July. If they don’t stop it the great pretender will surely sign it – and in a decade, everything will have a tag – “Made in China”.
8 GOP need to get the axe-And all but 44 Dems. This is a disgrace…
The final vote: H R 2454 RECORDED VOTE 26-Jun-2009 7:17 PM QUESTION: On Passage BILL TITLE: American Clean Energy and Security Act
See how your legislator voted and act.
I want a list of who voted yes and who did not vote. These will be the names of people I will never vote for again. Where do we get a list?
We are no longer represented.
Do I give up an move to India? I’m considering it. The business I’m in REQUIRES a particular amount of electricity. Broadcasting. If we turn our transmitters down, we simply lose our coverage. Simple as that.
And we can’t pass the cost to our advertisers; radio advertising is already eviscerated.
Great picture.. LOL!
Now, it should be interesting to see how much money Gore made with only this piece of news.
What’s that sound? Oh, a billion plus Chinese people giving the House of Reps a round of applause. 好工作!!!
rephelan (16:23:40),
I doubt the Senate will defeat this bill. It’s almost filibuster proof and the dems have Snowe, McCain, and a few other Republican Senators in their pockets.
We need to fight this a different way. Either the supreme court or by mass protests and peaceful disturbances.
To avoid partisanship, look at the UK, and what the King Canute government has done there. Your Congress has now voted for King Canute.
I can’t believe this.. the CBO proved it will cost each American $3000-$12000 per year. Only elitist liberals have that kind of money. What are real Americans supposed to do?
I’m sure India and China hopes we will buy less oil in the future. Supply and demand.
On the good news side, I understand the CLOUD experiment at CERN is continuing, with a key part of the apparatus having been received recently.
http://motls.blogspot.com/2009/06/cern-cloud-on-cloud-number-nine.html
ohioholic (16:29:09) :
It’s obvious you don’t speak Chinese. Did you use google translate? My friends and I use it once in awhile to enjoy the totally off-the-mark translation.
Pielke jr has an interesting analysis where he pointed out that there was little risk of voting for the bill since it had little chance to get through the senate. I guess he was right.
I am completely beside myself. I am past being outraged! I have control and influence of more that 84,000 websites and domains in this country. I am now going to use them! These idiots better start packing their bags!
Anybody have the names of the republicans who voted for this? I’ve already called one but the lines and message mailboxes were full. I’m calling everyone of these idiots and giving them an earful. They sold us out over the interests of foreigners.
There were also a couple of Republicans who did not vote on the most ridiculous piece of (snip) that has ever sullied the halls of congress.
Then move to Central America. The place that has no taxes and no global warming taxes and is at least warm. 1.5 Million Europeans die each year from cold and I forget who many in the UK. US citizens die now from cold, it will get worse. Canadians also and it will get worse. I am out of here, leaving the country for those who wish to freeze to death.I can take my business anywhere and I am sure you all can do also.
A translation website, I think it was Babelfish. How did you know I don’t speak Chinese? 😉 May as well get started now.
Robert Wood (16:32:09) :
If I understood your reference, you’ve mis-characterized King Canute. He commanded the tide to demonstrate the LIMITS of his power as sovereign.
The US Congress sees no limits to its power.
Mike
They are supposed to bow to their masters and washington and recite the famous line by Oliver twist….
“Please Sir, I’d like some more.”
Mark (16:38:17) :
Bono Mack
Castle
LoBiondo
McHugh
Lance
Kirk
Reichert
Smith (NJ)
They’re laughing in Asia now. The new global economic powerhouse will center around China.
I’m still trying to find where in the constitution that it says Americans can be taxed for the benefit of other countries.
We need to fight this, either via the courts or by mass protests and lawful disobedience.
We can’t let this bill become live…
Encouragingly, Bill Foster (D) (Illinois) from my congressional district voted against it. Foster (like myself) is a high-energy particle physicist who worked at Fermilab around the same time I did. Goes to show you that there are scientists and Congressman who use their noodle and don’t buy into the AGW hype. He is on record in the past saying he believes climate change is real and dangerous, but I guess W-M was a bit much.
The Senate vote will be a lot tougher. This bill is junk.
Cheers.
Mark (16:29:22) : Not necessarily. If those of you represented by Democrat senators can make enough noise, maybe we can win some converts.
KEEP THE PRESSURE ON!
This was a very positive exercise.
Lessons learned:
• fight the “big lie” head-on. Don’t be shy…
• forget about Republicrats and Demuglicans… They’re all working against us. It’s the “War On You” … it’s a big club and you’re not invited to the club… and if you don’t like it we’ll GPS your front door and send out the SWAT team … ( or maybe use predator drones flown by video-gamers? )
• build a coalition of all the various different groups who are being systematically SCREWED …. and you will find that We The People outnumber the traitors by several orders of magnitude.
• fight for HR 1207 & S.604 and against the Senate version of HR2454 with everything we’ve got.
• join Campaign for Liberty
• join Downsize DC
• End the FED
• get yourself some Liberty Stickers
• educate local politicians about global cooling
• fight global governance every time it pops up
WHOA-LOL, one of the Dem NAYS is named: McIntyre
Coincidence? Hehe…
Very disturbing, I think Jeff11 (10:32:55) makes quote of the week with – “the most expensive suicide note in history.”
Will the last one to leave advanced industrialised western democracy please turn out the lights? Oh, wait, you’re already doing that…
Seriously I am impressed by the effort of those posting here in contacting their representatives in an effort to stop this scientificaly hollow economic madness. Please keep up your efforts. It is not just the future of American freedom at stake. If America gives up control of it’s economy to unelected global scocialists in the UN many other nations will suffer.
Pamela Gray & Mark
See each legislator’s vote at: H R 2454 RECORDED VOTE 26-Jun-2009 7:17 PM American Clean Energy and Security Act
Tell your friends and your legislator what you think of your legislator’s vote.
Here is a list of the votes. They didn’t bother to indicate party.
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2009/roll477.xml
I noticed Mr. Watt voted Aye.
I haven’t heard of Any political pundits that think this thing has a Chance of getting through “Closure.”
Regardless of how you feel abut climate change, cap and trade is a very bad concept. It promotes fraud, corruption and inefficient market responses. With all of the various loopholes and special interests, present and prospective, an appropriate analogy to cap & trade would be the income tax code. Further, cap & trade will accelerate the transfer of many good paying middle class mfgr. jobs to those nations that are not required to follow cap & trade restrictions, such as China, India, Russia and Brazil.
A much better approach would be to impose a carbon tax and increase motor fuel taxes. At least the marketplace and general public would have certainty and market decisions would be efficient. Responses would be investments in energy efficiency and not more attorney and lobbyist fees to “beat the system”.
Personally, I think we should have graduated annual increases in gasoline taxes over a ten year period of time totaling $1.00 or $2.00 a gallon. It should be designed to give motorists and businesses sufficient time to adjust and purchase more efficient cars and trucks.
When I first saw the picture, I was thinking, not of a sausage, but of something that goes in the toilet and thought that was an appropriate picture of what this bill really is. Then I scrolled down and saw the rest of the picture. Ooops. But this bill does belong in the toilet, consider 222 voted for it without reading, much less understand it. Brilliant.
However, President Obama has to pay for the economic stimulus somehow. After all, nothing encourages a country to get out a recession like more taxes. (note the sarcasm) The problem is that the US economy affects the global economy. More taxes is going to prolong the recession and thus prolong global economy recovery. Already many major corporations have said they are going to leave this county if this bill passes. In 20 years, people will look back at this and see that it was the reason why the economy was so bad for so long. You think the economy is bad now, you ain’t seen nothing yet.
I can’t believe 8 Republicans voted for this green pile of crap. They need to be forced from the party. Barry is rapidly remaking the country I love into a second rate country. I hate it.
Anthony wrote: > Today, those of us watching CSPAN, saw the ugliness of the sausage factory.
Would you elaborate briefly on that? I’m very curious.
Mark wrote (16:29:22): > I doubt the Senate will defeat this bill. It’s almost filibuster proof.
It’s actually not quite so dire, my friend. In fact, on the contrary. Read what Senator Inhofe recently said about it:
http://fortcollinsteaparty.com/index.php/2009/06/26/cap-and-trade-bill-passes-the-house/
Steve Moore,
you are quite right Sir. But, the myth has it another way and most people only know the myth.
If 4 of the 8 republicans had voted no……
Eve,
Canadians thrive on cold, they don’t die from it. 🙂
The Iowa dems; braely, lobsack, and boswell voted for. if I spelled their names wrong, who gives a [snip].
Many say that this bill will die in the Senate. But I wouldn’t take that for granted. There are enough RINOs (including McCain) to put it over. The trick is to get the fossil-fuel-state Democrats to vote against.
I can’t help there. I’m in Massachusetts.
Does anyone know if the same or a very similar bill (plus the 300-page atrocity that Boehner had fun with today) has been introduced in the Senate?
In the long run, the only way (besides kicking all the Democrats out) to undermine the whole farrago is to kick out the support on which it is based: the myth that CO2 is causing ‘climate change’. Without that justification, the argument for cap-and-trade disintegrates.
We just need a few people of great prominence (well, at least one) to stand up and shout, “It’s not true! CO2 is not causing anything!”
/Mr Lynn
Truly an exercise in stupidity. If this passes the Senate, I’m moving out. I also want the names of those who voted for this. I want them out of our congress in the next election. More someone should propose a bill to strip them of any pay or perks after they are out of office.
Unfortunately, there is no cure for stupidity.
Jesse
I just fired off an email to my representative Jared Polis of Colorado who voted yes on the bill and told him, that as far as I was concerned he had violated the trust of the public and his oath of office by voting for a bill he could not possibly have read and understood. More over it was an appallingly bad bill.
As a consequence I felt he could not be trusted, and did not deserve to ever hold another elected office. I told him that I would actively work for his opponent in every future election.
Larry
This is a (modified) repost, Anthony, feel free to delete it.
Folks, every cloud has a silver lining, even this one.
Give them their fleeting moment of celebration. They deserve it after all the hard work they’ve put into the plotting, the manipulation and the manouvering to get where they have gotten today.
They have won a battle and they think they have won a war. This is their Pearl Harbour and they have woken the sleeping giant, personified by Joe the soon-to-be unemployed plumber.
It’ll be bloody, that’s for sure but, at least, it focuses the mind of the reluctant to engage, the slow to react but, ultimately, the unstoppable victors to sweep away, for once and for all, the madness that threatens the very core of our existence that defines who we are and we’d lost track of fior far too long.
Today, the US got caught with its pants down, by the ‘Party for the people that puts Party before the People’
Today, Tora,Tora but not after Tomorrow!
Sow what ye shall reap – repent and we might just forgive you- but you’ll not be forgotten! Some names live on in History for all the right reasons – some don’t!
Re- Lee Kington (16:41:47):
Thanks.
I’ve already called one of them on multiple phones and they are all full of messages. I’m calling every single one of them and giving them an earful, I don’t care that I’m not in their districts. They sold us out over the interests of foreigners.
Wade (16:52:37) :
Said: You think the economy is bad now, you ain’t seen nothing yet.
You are so right. If this passes the senate, it will be the final nail in the coffin of the US. The country I have fought for and worked for is becoming a place where I no longer want to live.
Jesse
Actually if 4 of the 10, since 2 did not vote at all…
Tom in Texas (16:47:59) :
“Here is a list of the votes. They didn’t bother to indicate party.”
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2009/roll477.xml
The republican votes are in italcis.
I kept c-span on in the background and I’ve already heard two reps speak harsh words about the passing of the bill. I did not catch their names.
The second rep was comparing it with the Amish. He can respect the people who make the choice to live like that, but it should not be decided for everybody by the federal government. He said something along the lines that in the future the world can come visit areas in the US like today tourists go visit Amish country.
He proceeded to sketch the effect on metal industry and how in a potential next war, the US will not even have the industry capacity to produce the necessary materials. Maybe the weapons can be bought from China.
Another rep is talking about it now, too.
Sullivan and Flake did not vote…
Another rep talking right now about “science is never settled”.
And he had some strong language on the 300 pages addition that was still needed last minute after all these bragged about 1000’s of hours to put the bill together.
First step? Oh Really?
What is the second step? Nuclear armageddon?
“mapopulistnow (16:50:45) :
Regardless of how you feel abut climate change, cap and trade is a very bad concept. It promotes fraud, corruption and inefficient market responses. With all of the various loopholes and special interests, present and prospective, an appropriate analogy to cap & trade would be the income tax code. Further, cap & trade will accelerate the transfer of many good paying middle class mfgr. jobs to those nations that are not required to follow cap & trade restrictions, such as China, India, Russia and Brazil.”
Russia has made a mint from cap and trade in Europe. They were practically the only country to have done so because they were given tons of free credits based on Soviet Union-era levels of CO2 emissions. With the billions of euros Russia made from the sale of those credits, Putin filled the deep pockets of his friends, forcibly nationalised successful private companies and then give them to friends, then expanded the Russian military to bully neighbouring countries. The Kremlin oligarchy’s puppet Oleg Deripaska is one of 16 global business leaders who drafted CEO Climate Policy Recommendations for the G8 in order to make sure the money keeps rolling his way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleg_Deripaska
Deripaska is one of 16 global business leaders who drafted CEO Climate Policy Recommendations to G8 Leaders, a document outlining international business community’s proposals to effectively tackle global warming. The proposals were signed by more than 100 of the world’s leading corporations and handed to Japanese Prime Minister Yasuo Fukuda on June 20, 2008. G8 leaders discussed the recommendations during the summit in Japan on July 7-9, 2008. The process was coordinated by the World Economic Forum in collaboration with the World Business Council for Sustainable Development.
You read correct, a non-scientist who has taken over companies by threatening to kill CEOs and has been implicated in the murder of businessmen who refused to bow to the Kremlin, was one of a handful of people who drafted global climate policy.
Now your elitist cronies are doing the same in the US.
Re: Aron (16:25:08)
“By playing this thing as a Democrat Vs Republican thing many of you fall into the trap…”
I could not agree more. An Indian man talking on public radio said that the US Government was showing signs of becoming an immature democracy. It is painful to have to agree with a man from what we thought of as the third world, but understands us better than we do ourselves. I don’t know how you reconstitute a deliberative body out of this degeneracy. It may be a harder task than the founding fathers had.
So congress fights phantoms (global warming) in the name of party loyalty. It is like children play acting roles that they have witnessed but don’t understand. The motions are made but to no good purpose. Worse, they are destructive.
In the meantime our debt grows. Real progress on energy independence isn’t made. Job losses continue. Federal revenue declines. More core competency is lost. We may be banging pots and shouting from the roofs in a couple of years.
Fortunately (and unfortunately) that’s Mel Watt, my representative. He has a gerrymandered district that’s 1 mile wide and 180 miles long. What do you think the chances are for my climate voice to be heard in DC.
Time to get on your Senators. Let them know how you feel. EPA rushed the endangerment finding, House crammed 300 pages of amendment in at the last second, no one read the [self-snip]ing thing, there is no hurry to flush our economy down the toilet, et cetera.
Nancy had to get this passed…she just bought stock in some clean energy company…and I suppose the price of that stock just went way up…Of course, if all of us leave the country, there will be no one left to pay Nancy’s salary and no one for her to terrorize. 2010 elections can’t come fast enough.
Tom of Texas
Party is clearly shown in the roll call vote by:
“(Democrats in roman; Republicans in italic; Independents underlined)”
IT’S NOT TRUE! CO2 IS NOT CAUSING ANYTHING! ……….. oops, I hadn’t read “the people of great prominence” part ……..
Robert Wood (16:53:29) :
you are quite right Sir. But, the myth has it another way and most people only know the myth.
Well, we must always seek to enlighten if we are to progress.
“…most people only know the myth…” of AGW, too.
This bill needs three reams of paper to make a hard copy. History tells us that although the US may get reamed once, it never gets done twice. Three times is aspirationally laughable!
Re- David L. Hagen (16:47:21):
I’m calling all of the republicans who voted for this bill even though my rep voted against it.
I’m also thinking of calling some of the senators like Snowe and McCain. This bill is wrong.
I’m trying to console myself that my own Congressman votes by using common sense. He voted no.
Sound collision alarm. The USS Economy is going to have a tough time finding utopian energy sources.
I am reminded of the REM Song . .
It’s the end of the world as we know it,
its the end of the world as we know it,
its the end of the world as we know it,
and I feel (substitute my word here) MAD AS HELL!!!!
Arn Riewe (17:04:26) :
Yeah, i saw that right after I posted. Too quick to pull the trigger.
Bono Mack? Mary? CAL
Castle DEL
Kirk ILL
Lance NJ
LoBiondo NJ
McHugh NY
Reichert WA
Smith NJ
Word is that 300 pages of amendments were added in the early morning hours of today. That is sneaky and devious. I wonder if those amendments were designed to buy the votes of the 8 Republicans who moved to the dark side? I would guess that no member of the House actually read what those 300 pages contained or even the original 900 pages.
Didn’t President Obama promise us a four day period of airing all legislation before coming to a vote?
My Rep (Geo. Miller, Jr.) voted for, despite 100% of those who took the time to email his office asked that he vote no. I guess Georgie Jr. doesn’t include representing his constituents as part of his governance philosophy. I guess he is a leftist ideologue instead.
May 26, 2009 now goes down as the day the House Democrats (+8 Republicans) voted for the largest regressive tax in the history of the United States. Shame on all of you.
If this passes the Senate, then within a couple of years I think the consequences will be obvious, and I would like to think it will become a huge political liability to have been on the AYE side of this vote. It may be possible to repeal it at that point, maybe limiting the damage.
On the other hand, what happened to those who passed Smoot-Hawley? How long did it take before a consensus formed that Smoot-Hawley had been economically disastrous? When did this enter into the public perception, if at all? I suspect that the Smoot-Hawley AYE voters escaped any accountability.
If this does become law, I hope people will be clear-minded enough to recognize the relationship between this law and the economic consequences that will follow. Certainly there will be an effort to discredit anyone who tries to connect the two.
Laureate-in-waiting, the POTUS appears not to have recognised that the Chinese saying ‘May you live in interesting times’ was meant as a curse, not a challenge!
If I was a betting man, I’d be putting Nix on his re-election!
Make that June. I’m so angry I can’t think.
ohioholic (16:40:21) :
Haha, yeah those translation websites/softwares are not reliable. But you’re right, maybe it’s a good time to learn Chinese and even start considering a relocation to China. I am all for living under a less socialistic regime.
8 Republicans voted for the biggest tax increase in the history of the world?! Even the CBO admits it will wreck the American economy. Why can’t they see the truth– algore orchestrated everything, hes probably going to gain another 20 pounds tonight eating a really big cheesecake to celebrate.
Mike Bryant (17:06:54) :
Sullivan and Flake did not vote…
Flake by name….
“So congress fights phantoms (global warming) in the name of party loyalty.”
Yes, it is about party loyalty and not any form of enlightened thinking. It’s the same thing with celebrities who jump on bandwagons and causes just so they can cozy up to other celebrities in order to open up more business opportunities for themselves. The most irresponsible thing about that is how they involve the public, especially young people, to back them thereby dividing a nation along side ideological, political, religious and racial lines. The era of the great thinkers who envisioned an enlightened future has long gone because of this crony behaviour.
A quote from a political blog that I visit often:
“If the government stops working for you, stop working for the government.”
Truth is important. The EPA “carbongate” is still important in what it can still do to the final passage of this bill. And if muzzling at EPA is serious, surely we also need to open up the case of the apparent rewriting of the 1995 IPCC “Report for Policymakers” that is supposed to have been done by Ben Santer? The suggestion is that the IPCC scientists’ conclusions were radically tampered with, so what was reported as scientists’ conclusions was not their conclusions, not at all… I wrote up what I could find about that story here
Thanks Anthony for making WUWT the center of this controversy. We all expected Mr. Henkie to show his ugly face on this vote. After all, the administration has decided to move on endangerment. It just required enough buyouts of the politicians and took all day to write the checks.
There is no word I have for the politicians other than they better not meet me in private, I have a few things to say.
The problem is, of course, that they don’t actually read the bills they vote on. I call that criminal negligence.
In my opinion, a more apt name for HR 2454 would be the “American Eco-Reparations Act”
what a day our nation dies and a Saint was born when he died last night seems like Michael Jackson is more important than Our Nation
This about sums it up. (As a Canadian, I am helpless to effect this)
sigh…
Contact your Senators now to let them know your displeasure. Be polite, no vulgarity, but don’t be tooo nice about it. You do need to let them know how upset you are. If they get a huge spike in communications right after the bill passes, I am sure they will sit up and take notice.
Mark Granklin, he will be drinking the very finest champaign,
Jay (17:21:47) : Gotta give credit to the 44 Dems who voted against. I say this as an R who is VERY peeved at those 8 backstabbers…
Do future tea parties have to be green now? Because green tea is some nasty stuff.
They’re taking thousands of dollars from MY pocket and putting it right into algore’s. The CBO knows this. Don’t they know that the sunspots are all gone? We’re on the verge of a new ice age– all real scientists know this– and algore wants to line his pockets.
A little Photoshop processing and the Waxman image could be morphed into a “green” wienie.
AEGeneral (17:40:03) : I prefer Raspberry, but why dump good tea? That would be wasteful.
In my opinion, this bill is so incredibly unconstitutional I regard any congressman who voted for it to be a traitor worthy of the lawful punishment due traitors.
To paraphrase Thomas Paine:
“THESE are the times that try men’s souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated. The Democratic Party, with an army to enforce her tyranny, has declared that she has a right (not only to TAX) but “to BIND us in ALL CASES WHATSOEVER” and if being bound in that manner, is not slavery, then is there not such a thing as slavery upon earth. Even the expression is impious; for so unlimited a power can belong only to God.”
It is time to realize that what the Democrats are foisting upon our country is coup d’etat usurping our Constitution and Federalist system of government, our free market economic system, for a socialist tyranny that will destroy our industry, our weath, our property, and our future. This is a crisis of the sort which has not tried our nation in over a century and a half, it is time to fight for the souls and legacies left to us by our forefathers by whatever means necessary, to remove and depose these treasonous snakes from the halls of power and restore to us constitutional government by legislators who recognise their power is limited and circumscribed by that sacred document.
The ‘scientists” and the devilcrats are conspiring to suprrest the TRUTH. God gave us the earth he wouldn’t just destory it like the dimocrats are saying. WAKE UP PEOPLE. This is a plot to take your $$$$ and gve it to the government. The “scientists” are in on it– WHERE DO YOU THINK THEY GET THERE $$$ FROM???
Congress passing the bailout bill last year did all but confirm that the Representatives (I capitalized “R” with reservation) have given up representing their consiituents anymore. So this time around shouldn’t come as a surprise. As long as Americans are comfortable with being patsies, nothing will ever change.
It is with great regret that I see this passed. I actually read 700 pages of this bill this morning, and the 300 page amendment tonight. What a piece of over reaching garbage. There is a lot not to like if you use energy.
I e-mailed my congressman, but he was leaning yes and tipped over that way. He is up for reelection in 2010, and is in an at risk seat formerly held by a secure republican.
Like Squidly, I control more than a few web sites and domains. The local big city paper likes when I write for them. My blog entertains thousands. I am not a happy guy and the world is about to find out about it. I don’t care if I have to take a campaign position or even run myself, this guy’s congressbum is getting the bum’s rush in 2010.
In my travels of this horrifying document, section 13 sub iii is my favorite… I put it in stars to highlight it.
(13) QUALIFIED HYDROPOWER- The term ‘qualified hydropower’ means–
‘(A) energy produced from increased efficiency achieved, or additions of capacity made, on or after January 1, 1992, at a hydroelectric facility that was placed in service before that date and does not include additional energy generated as a result of operational changes not directly associated with efficiency improvements or capacity additions; or
‘(B) energy produced from generating capacity added to a dam on or after January 1, 1992, provided that the Commission certifies that–
‘(i) the dam was placed in service before the date of the enactment of this section and was operated for flood control, navigation, or water supply purposes and was not producing hydroelectric power prior to the addition of such capacity;
‘(ii) the hydroelectric project installed on the dam is licensed (or is exempt from licensing) by the Commission and is in compliance with the terms and conditions of the license or exemption, and with other applicable legal requirements for the protection of environmental quality, including applicable fish passage requirements; and
*********************************************************
‘(iii) the hydroelectric project installed on the dam is operated so that the water surface elevation at any given location and time that would have occurred in the absence of the hydroelectric project is maintained, subject to any license or exemption requirements that require changes in water surface elevation for the purpose of improving the environmental quality of the affected waterway.
**********************************************************
A hydro dam where the water is no deeper on either side of the dam? Watts up with that?
Oh well, the science is settled, and we were just dying for a federal building code and something to put the power companies out of business. Since my tourism based businesses will be devastated, it looks like it is time to go into politics. Now where did I put those federalist papers…
I would prefer Hansen’s plan of a revenue-neutral carbon tax.
Mike Lorrey (17:47:44) :
You will be hard pressed to find anything passed by the congress that is constitutional.
I hear America Crying
I HEAR America crying, the varied dirge I hear;
That of mechanics–each one moaning his, about his past, blithe and
strong;
The carpenter hammering his, as he measures his plank or beam,
The mason singing his, as he makes ready for work, or leaves off
work;
The boatman lamenting what had belonged to him in his boat–the deckhand
grieving on the tugboat deck;
The shoemaker chanting as he sits on his bench–the plumber sighing as
he stands;
The wood-cutter’s sorrow–the farmer’s, on his way in the morning,
or at the noon intermission, or at sundown;
The piteous singing of the mother–or of the young wife at work–or
of the girl sewing or washing–Each missing what had belonged to
her, and to none else;
Pretend to work for pseudo pay–At night, the wailing of young
fellows, morose, unfriendly,
Singing, with open mouths, a low discordant requiem,
As America is dying.
Apologies to Walt Whitman… for the poem and the vote…
There is so much happening so fast….it’s has to be more than just a natural event. tick tick tick keep your eye on the Eastern Sky.
If we get global currency, and I feel we will soon……snap crackel pop, we are in the final days before the tribulation.
I think its funny honestly. Americans were so pent up in their hate for Bush and what he did that they blindly voted in a new set of tyrannts…even worse then the past one…lol
America and Americans get what is coming to them.
I don’t think I’ve been this angry since April 30, 1975. This time, it’s the American people who have been sold out.
Congressman Dave Reichert (R. WA) just lost a loyal voter – forever.
The Democrats are right, this bill is the start of the creation of millions of “green” jobs. What they don’t seem to realize is that those jobs will be in the form of FARM LABORERS in the new U.S. post-industrial agrarian economy. We will have to struggle to feed our country in a few years’ time if this insanity continues…
“The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly.” — Abraham Lincoln
And I would add, vote out the ones who voted for it.
RayB:
“A hydro dam where the water is no deeper on either side of the dam? Watts up with that?”
I think this simply means that the water flow through the new hydroelectric plant cannot create a noticeable decrease in the lake level. This can be done if the lake inflow is roughly equal to the hydroelectric turbine flow, and the lake is large.
I think the bill should be renamed the Bubbles Bill in honor of the late Micheal Jackson’s chimp, the beer bubbles at it’s core and the monkey’s that voted in favor of it, without actually having possibly read it.
I just hope that for the future prosperity of the USA there are less chimps in your senate.
I remember when I got the call from the Republican National Committee for a contribution in 2006 and 2008. I said the same thing each time: “Not a damn dime. You guys are spending like a bunch of drunken democrats.” I’m a maroon. Don’t ever think things can’t get worse.
Dear Ray, if you are seriously going to pursue this, I would like to offer any assistance that I can to help you get your message out. I have a few little secrets that could be quite beneficial to you in this effort.
Please contact me offline at my email address listed here.
Oh, whoops, sorry, address: squid@thixo.com
Never overestimate the intelligence of the members of the House of Representatives.
The section in this bill covering home and mortgage appraisals essentially confiscates all privately owned houses in the US by requiring the government to dictate the appraisal price of the home. If you can dictate the sales price you essentially own the property. If this gets through the Senate Obama and the Democrats will at a stroke turn the US into a Stalinist Communist state. This must surely be unconstitutional – but I wouldn’t rely on the Supreme court to stand up to the Democratic Commissars – since in their wisdom the idiots on the court classified CO2 as a pollutant and thus legitimised this vast power and property grab.
There will be 4th of July tea parties everywhere. I am suggesting that recall petitions be started for each of the yes votes on this bill and the three that didnt bother to vote as well. Dont be angry alone. Show your displeasure with like minded folk.. People called us crazy on april 15th.. lets see what they say about the 4th.
Lets stop this in the senate. Put the fear of (insert higher power here) into these fools.
Another important thing to be a bug in your legislator’s ear about is the Copenhagen summit in December. Remember, if this bill passes, is implemented, and things get bad, the congress can repeal it or whatever (especially if we throw the incumbents out). BUT, if we agree to a treaty in Copenhagen, there is no way out! We can’t change our minds later. The Constitution puts international treaties above any national law, and you can bet the greenies would take it to the Supreme Court if congress tried to take action. Although it’s important to stop this bill, Copenhagen is even more important. We escaped the Kyoto treaty, we need to avoid Copenhagen as well.
Incredible! Sad day for the, whats left of it, western world. But, what’s the point in voting out, or in, politicians? It’s the people you don’t vote for who are driving this, not the public puppets you see.
As an example, in New Zealand I know some of the people whol sold Post Bank to ANZ Bank while a National Govn’t was in place. These very same people setup KiwiBank while there was a Labour Govn’t in place (Helen Clark, hell bent on introducing “climate change” policies. She and her Govn’t were voted out last year after 10 years of extreme left policies, incresed taxes etc, to be replaced with a National Govn’t who retracted any climate bills/policies being thought about at that time. Good on ’em. Australia should take NZ’s lead and ignore what the US has done).
PS. I’ve actually made saussages before in a butchers many years ago.
Waxman’s strange, Zelig-like image will soon be a part of American history. His name will be on the tongue of every grateful American, and his avuncular image will appear (perhaps magically) in every history book.
I’m sure, for example, it was he standing behind Henry Ford in one of those old black-and-white photos … snuffing indignantly at the tail-pipe of a Model T as it came clattering off the production line.
A smiling Henry Waxman on every gas pump: Welcome to a Cleaner Tomorrow… Thanks, Hank!!
RayB:
“A hydro dam where the water is no deeper on either side of the dam? Watts up with that?”
I think this simply means that the water flow through the new hydroelectric plant cannot create a noticeable decrease in the lake level. This can be done if the lake inflow is roughly equal to the hydroelectric turbine flow, and the lake is large.
We have a situation in Missouri where Truman dam on the osage river generates hydroelectric power and this water is released into the lake of the Ozarks to generate power at Bagnel dam. This keeps the water level on the lake of the Ozarks stable for recreation. Are they refering to a similiar sityuation on another river system
First of all, a public thanks to my dem. representative, Jim Matheson from Utah who voted no in both the committee and on the floor. Secondly I emailed the chairman of the GOP (state level is probably better but I couldn’t find email addresses) that not one dime of party money should be spent on reelecting these 8. To do so would be no better than what these 8 did today. On the day that someone enters the race in the primary or general election against one of these eight, be they Dem, Rep, Ind, Lib, or Martian, post it so I can support them with a little cash. Sadly we have to wait two years to fire them.
Pelosi was right when she said this bill was all about jobs — the creation of numerous looting & mooching federal bureaucrat pull peddler jobs that will replace real productive jobs.
Our rights were surrendered when the democrats finally got the majority of the House and Senate. Now they do nothing but ram social programs down our throats unchecked. They got their wish, we got our change, it sure doesn’t feel good does it. Remember this day, because when they implement this horror show on the American public and it blows up in their face as it has in every country they tried this, they will somehow blame the Republicans. At what cost in dollars and individual freedoms?. Mark your calendar in red, because under the democrats that is the path we are heading toward.
Fortunately only the Senate by a 2/3 majority can validate an international treaty. At least it says that in the constitution, we know what that has been worth lately.
This bill will energize the opposition’s base. The promoters apparently underestimated the potential backlash-effect here.
I did not realize Waxman was from Arrakis.
[snip]
Senate to vote on cap & trade….contact them.
FACTS: WHY VOTE AGAINST CAP & TRADE
http://factreal.wordpress.com/2009/06/26/facts-why-vote-against-cap-trade-hr2454/
Are we the most pathetic nation in the world or what? I truly never thought that one man could totally destroy America like President Obama has in a little more than 6 months. Add a national health care system to the mix and freedom as we use to know it in America is over. We could use someone like Thomas Paine right about know.
You Americans need to realize that the left/right paradigm is an illusion. Both sides are backed by the same interests, the globalists. They would like to see nothing less than the disassembly of sovereignty around the world. They would like to see a totalitarian global government, where they define reality. The science says CO2 isn’t the driver of climate change? WHO CARES, THE WORLD GOVERNMENT SAYS IT DOES. PAY US YOUR CARBON TAXES YOU PEONS.
I don’t see any other reason as to why this bill, and other crazy bills are being passed with such pace.
Be careful guys, don’t let the elitists take over your country. Fight anything that goes against the liberties given to you by your founding fathers. They, after all, gave you the greatest country on earth, now look at it.
59 Democrat Senators. They need 51 votes to pass it.
And I should have hope it won’t pass…. tell me again why.
I know a lot of republicans who petulantly refused to turn out and vote last November. Talk about letting the best be the enemy of the good.
Well, we get the government we deserve.
And I should have hope it won’t pass…. tell me again why.
Because it needs 60 votes for cloture. Otherwise it can be filibustered and it never gets to the floor for a vote. It will be close.
“Tom (21:29:11) : like President Obama has in a little more than 6 months.”
3 1/2 more years to go. And maybe 4 more after that.
filibustered
Ok. Then next—I should have hope the Republicans have the b@#*s to do a filibuster…. tell me again why.
evanmjones (21:50:03) :
I know a lot of republicans who petulantly refused to turn out and vote last November.
I didn’t know there was a Republican running for President last November.
Thomas has it exactly right. Leave the two-party idea out and the picture becomes quite clear.
I didn’t know there was a Republican running for President last November.
Even if you didn’t have someone to vote for, you sure as heck had someone to vote against. We lost a lot of congressmen as well, thanks to those who sat it out.
Leave the two-party idea out and the picture becomes quite clear.
Majority rule makes two parties or two coalitions inevitable. There is no getting away from that. The alternative is one party, which is worse.
Plurality rule doesn’t work, either. It’s a disaster.
Then next—I should have hope the Republicans have the b@#*s to do a filibuster…. tell me again why.
A couple will defect. But there are quite a few dems in the coal states who may cross the aisle. Filibusters have become standard procedure these days. I’m not sure I object. It makes it harder to pass laws, and we don’t exactly have a law shortage as it is.
That is the point — there is but one.
It’s late, just got back from a wedding, and I was hoping for some good news this early in my east coast morning.. damn!
BTW, is Norman Page (19:34:45) speculating too much about the impact of Government dictating of home and mortgage appraisal values?
Is there no limit to the stupidy of our elected oficials? My super GREEN congressman Jay Inslee voted yes as expected but the only Republican, Dave Reichart, on the west side of the Cascades here in the EverGreen state of Washington also voted for it. I was very pleased that he survived the Obama landslide but now I see that it made no difference. He did not have the backbone to stand up to the Green Mafia that controls this state! I phoned and e-mailed Inslee fully knowing that it would not change his vote. Now I will do the same with our two senators and I expect the same results.
That is the point — there is but one.
These things change. If the election were reheld today, the results would be different. Splitting the GOP hasn’t worked out so well so far. I suggest putting our (admittedly substantial) differences aside and pulling in the same direction. The dem coalition is large, but it is also fragile. The GOP is not perfect, but it is clearly preferable.
Haven’t caught up with most of this thread yet, so sorry if this’s been discussed at all, but otherwise, I think it’s mostly on-topic question.
In a news story I read about WM passing, it mentioned that they’re now they’re only planning on auctioning 15% of the initial emissions allocations. Does anyone know, as the legislation’s written now, who chooses who receives the allocations and how they choose how many? Cheers
Charlie Gibson gave the vote (not yet final) about 30 seconds on ABC tonight, about as much attention as the average MC gave it. The rest of the “news” was devoted to Michael Jackson.
Gary Strand (17:54:05) :
I would prefer Hansen’s plan of a revenue-neutral carbon tax.
———-?????
Hey I got one of those, guess what the Government of BC came up way short on the revenue and over spent on the “neutral” part of subsidies and tax credits for low income people. Made for a structural deficit. Gov cannot do anything “revenue neutral”.
Great plan though, this year tax goes up 50% so they can have a another whack at it, maybe they can be 50% more in the red. Psst in a dynamic economy you cannot predict consumption revenue, you can judge by GDP, Inflation and taxpayer migration/attrition what the base line for non-descretionary spending will be but to fund a program via consumption taxes is lunacy at its best, especially when you are actively taxing something to discourage its use.
Example: SChip Healthcare funded via tobacco tax, when the smokers are priced out of tobacco use there will be not revenue for SChip, then what the kids get the boot from the program?
Even if you didn’t have someone to vote for, you sure as heck had someone to vote against.
Who said I stayed home?
Wintering-Over in Antarctica. We celebrated Mid-Winters Day a week ago today and our station leader read a Mid-Winters greeting from our nation’s leader that included a reference to climate change. I later remarked about this to a colleague which led to an argument about manmade global warming, climate change or whatever it’s now called. This spoiled what had been up to that point an enjoyable Mid-Winters celebration. I’m really hoping this Congressional dog and pony show was just for Pelosi’s benefit and sanity rules in the Senate.
There is a proverb:
“Those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad”.
possibly wrongly attributed to Euripedes.
The ancient greek ” Μωραίνει Κύριος ον βούλεται απολέσαι” has the more apt translation:
Whom God wants to destroy, he turns into an idiot/ fool.
Moros, is from the same root as “baby” and is used for adults as an insult .
I think that is what is happening in the US in an accelerated rate, that started after WWII. Eisenhower had forseen it but could not avert it.
I suppose it is inevitable that all imperia fall because of internal stupidities. One would expect that in this age of instant information this could have been averted, but watching the US give the sacrificial knife to China shows that there must be an inevitable God induced folly/blindness in human societies after all.
I think focusing on the Senate is a bad idea. Instead, people who called their Congressman, call again and thank them for voting no. If there is a nearby Congressman who voted yes, let your Congressman know that you plan on working to defeat their colleague in the next election over this issue.
Several of these no votes were ready to vote yes if needed, and the bill will have to come back to House for a second vote. That time, no amendments will be allowed.
Also, you need to act now to get some of the yes votes switched back.
When is the bill to be deliberated/voted in Senate?
Who said I stayed home?
Well, good. We need to pull in the same direction.
I’m not a political analyst, but echoing some prior comments on this thread: maybe it’s not Dems vs. Reps, or Liberals vs. Conservatives. Are those false dichotomies?
Here’s another theory. Maybe it’s the Public Sector vs. the Private Sector. Government vs. the citizenry. Do our elected officials represent us to the government, or represent the government to us?
In the case of the Cap-and-Stifle Bill, who are the winners and who are the losers? Follow the money. The Private Sector pays, the Public Sector reaps.
Is it any different in public forest management? Who wins when forests burn down? It’s not the public; it’s the government employees. We get our forests, watersheds, homes, and livelihoods destroyed: they get double overtime.
The economic crash has pushed national unemployment into double digits. How many of those were government workers? Which sector gets stimulated by the Stimulus?
Who employs the Alarmists? Isn’t it mainly the government? How many climate realists work for Uncle Sam? When a government employee departs from the Alarmist Party line, how long to they keep their jobs?
Is it all a Sector struggle, not a political partisan struggle? And if so, what strategies might be useful, (and which traditional political ontologies basically useless)?
Something to think about.
“anna v (23:07:41) : Whom God wants to destroy, he turns into an idiot/ fool”
Maybe it’s just that he keeps them from their foolishness unless that is what they would rather have.
Mike D. (23:58:22) :
There are people who don’t like to see this happening but would do the same if they were in power.
Something to think about.
evanmjones (23:38:07) :
I wanted Giuliani. You were going that way?
I emailed my Democratic Rep, even though I knew it wouldn’t do any good. Here’s part of the response I got back:
Quote…
In 2007, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, a scientific body set up by the World Meteorological Organization and the United Nations Environment Program, found indisputable evidence that global temperatures were changing, largely due to human activities resulting in greenhouse gas emissions. Further, the U.S. Global Change Research Program, a group of thirteen federal departments and agencies that has studied this problem over the last four presidential administrations, concluded in June 2009 that changes in precipitation patterns, increasing sea levels and altering glacial activity would dramatically affect the Earth’s ecosystem.
… If we fail to act, the world’s leading climate scientists predict that during our children’s life times, climate change will raise the average temperature by 3 to 10 degrees Fahrenheit, causing 3 out of every 5 species to die, the sea to rise by 2 feet, and our state’s drinking water supply to be in jeopardy. Experts predict that failing to act now will cost us $1.9 to $3 trillion by 2100.
…the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy reported that the bill will provide the average American household with energy efficiency savings of approximately $200 per month in 2020, and cumulative savings of $3,900 per household by 2030. The bill also contains several programs designed to return the revenues collected by this legislation to consumers in order to offset any price increases. Additionally, this bill protects low income families and would reduce their energy costs by an average of $40 per year.
… A report by the University of Massachusetts concludes that the bill’s expansion in clean-energy investments coupled with the recovery legislation passed earlier this year will generate roughly $150 billion per year in new clean-energy activity. This would generate a net increase of about 1.7 million jobs.
…unquote.
Wow, we must be a bunch of idiots to oppose this thing! It’s amazing! We’re going to shut down all the coal burners, tax every form of hydrocarbon fuel that makes our civilization possible, and somehow that’s magically going to create jobs and money out of thin air!
I can’t wait until the next election cycle. Dems are going to pay for this big time! Of course there’s the short attention span of the voters… the sold-out eco-marxist media… the sold-out eco-marxist school system… the unions selling their members out… the greedy politicians and businesses who will trade our country’s economic health for a green badge of honor and all the money that comes with being connected with the right political “leaders”… and then there is the inept GOP that apparently can’t control its sexual urges and spends like dems when it has any power…
Never mind… we’re doomed…
Blimey, I’ve just skimmed this and I can’t find a single comment supporting this measure – unanimity!
I’m British, here we have elections and those who win have political power for a time period. Surely the same happens in the US? Surely the Democrats are in power and they are doing what those in power do – exercising it, putting the mandate into practice. I don’t see why that is the end of the world – it’s democracy.
Of course, this is also all politics – science it’s is not.
Actually, Anthony, the image you display for this thread is very phallic, and not commensurate with the content, if you think a bit about it that way.
Mike D………. Well said Sir. Spot on.
This Cap and Trade bill, I feel, is Anti American….. Republicans and Democrats, despite their differences….. Are Americans.
To vote this bill into existence, is to join with the Globalists….. Socialists by nature and ideology…. and certainly not for Freedom and the American way.
Im not quite sure if pictures are allowed to be posted on these comments section, but i think this pic explains it all: http://members.gamedev.net/edxLabs/image/facepalm.jpg
Protest this July 4th in D.C. if you can!! If you can’t make it to D.C. then protest in front of your representatives office or find a group near you that has one set up for the 4th. They obviously don’t realize that this climate bill DOES NOT WORK! Europe tried it and in Spain, it led to an 18% unemployment rate! Call and email every representative that voted yes on this bill both Dems and Repubs! Do whatever you can to keep them from getting reelected!
Mike D. (23:58:22) : Picking up on your thread. (AGW vs. Democracy) …
In his farewell speech President Eisenhower warned of two threats to US democracy. Neither was external; the US was very strong militarily. Both were internal and he coined a term for each:
· Military-Industrial Complex
· Scientific-Technological Elite
Here is an excerpt from Eisenhower’s farewell speech:
“…Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government (research) contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity…. The prospect of domination of the nation’s scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present … and is gravely to be regarded.”
The point: If scientists seeking federal research funds conduct the type of research desired by the federal government … or even produce results dictated by the government … Democracy would be threatened because the “Scientific-Technological Elite” would control information. Consider this excerpt from an interview William Happer, currently a physics professor at Princeton, gave to a Princeton newspaper:
Happer explained that his beliefs about climate change come from his experience at the Department of Energy, at which Happer said he supervised all non-weapons energy research, including climate change research. Managing a budget of more than $3 billion, Happer said he felt compelled to make sure it was being spent properly. “I would have [researchers] come in, and they would brief me on their topics,” Happer explained. “They would show up. Shiny faces, presentation ready to go. I would ask them questions, and they would be just delighted when you asked. That was true of almost every group that came in.”
The exceptions were climate change scientists, he said.
“They would give me a briefing. It was a completely different experience. I remember one speaker who asked why I wanted to know, why I asked that question. So I said, you know I always ask questions at these briefings … I often get a much better view of [things] in the interchange with the speaker,” Happer said. “This guy looked at me and said, ‘What answer would you like?’ I knew I was in trouble then. This was a community even in the early 1990s that was being turned political. [The attitude was] ‘Give me all this money, and I’ll get the answer you like.’ ”
The story (which I have not confirmed from a 2nd source) is Happer (Working in the Clinton Admin) was fired by AL Gore for not moving into the AGW camp.
Some lessons are only learned the old fashioned, hard way – by living with the consequences of bad decisions.
Face it – America needs a good dose of hard times, and this bill is the right medicine.
What logic cannot teach a moron, then there’s only pain and suffering left to convey the lesson.
How will this “result” effect the Copenhagen conference in December. ?
For some time I have been aware of an apparent “unwillingness” to accept America could go the same idiotic way Europe is going. This is usually based on the opinion “I never did buy into that CO2 rubbish”, whether that be true or not, it is immaterial.
The politicians HAVE.
I am very concerned that 2010 will be too late, care of this “result” and what will come out of Copenhagen, at least partially because of, or encouraged by it.
European economic catastrophy is almost now guaranteed,
America is on the same path.
Remembering Obama’s phrase,
“energy prices will neccesarily shy rocket”,
well it is already happening over in Europe.
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/engineers-call-for-halt-to-wind-farm-investment-1786706.html
“We” all need to pull together against this scam,
regardless of Left, Right, Centre, or Libertarian (to name just a few).
All that can come much later, when we have “safe” economies again.
This is not an “American” or a “European” problem,
it is a problem for us ALL, together.
I hope we will see the rapid appearance of versions / branches of this political party springing up in other countries around the world.
http://www.climatesceptics.com.au/
I suspect the right time is upon us for such “politics”.
This is like draining the water out of the car radiator before leaving on a long trip, with the U.S. Government going to spend 4 times as much as it did last year, and giving the keys to the store to those that created this mess, those that see the light are buying deeply into the Power Share U.S Dollar Index Bearish Fund ( NYSE:UDN )
But I guess a burning Washington has no relation to the fiddle.
The founding fathers discussed the tyranny of the majority, but they came to the conclusion that no party could unite across the vastness of the US of A.
Parties of political elites forging ahead despite the will of the people are an evil across the Western world.
Democracy now has a new weapon in the internet, News is no longer rationed by the mainstream media and any politician who does not engage with their constituents, in the manner that Anthony does here, is going to find themselves yesterday’s men.
Following the Party line rather than the constituents’ wishes is a perversion of democracy.
Pierre Gosselin (01:58:28) :
Some lessons are only learned the old fashioned, hard way – by living with the consequences of bad decisions.
Face it – America needs a good dose of hard times, and this bill is the right medicine.
What logic cannot teach a moron, then there’s only pain and suffering left to convey the lesson.
Thanks , Pierre , for finding the right greek root for my proverb. moron comes from the root moros, that was in the ancient greek quote:
The exact translation then is:
“Whom God wants to destroy, he turns into a moron.”
“The price of going green” as seen in the UK
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8122122.stm
“There are warnings that the government’s green targets are about to push energy bills even higher.
The charity National Energy Action estimates that prices could rise by 10% over the next 12 months, pushing another half a million people into fuel poverty.”
Your future is expensive.
“What logic cannot teach a moron.”
A logic that kills him / her, their children,
before the lesson is learned.
Or a logic that harms others that have no say in
what the “moron” has learned, or been taught.
This logic will kill many the world over, mainly the poor,
(food prices last year for instance.)
the lesson is too harsh.
I listened to Obama’s speech. What a beautiful crock of propoganda. He said we cant be prisoners of the past. He said that by embracing the clean energy America will lead the world. There is an irony that seems to have escaped even his critics. If fossil fuel is energy of the past what is wind power? Wind power is the energy source of not just the past, but the distant past. My question for Mr Obama: how can a nation that adopts the energy of the middle ages be a leader in anything? Hello, Mr Obama?
I think I’ll just go hug my guns now.
Yesterday I listened to some late-nite debate among various older intellectuals (not one among them a specialist in Sciences, though) about climatic change. One of them was especially noxious, saying that it is necessary to cut off the consumption and possibilities for general population, because it is only in a state of need and general shortage when the humans are the most creative. So anything that will increase “Knappheit” (shortage) is welcomed. I was speechless…
If 4 of the 8 republicans had voted no……
Wouldn’t have mattered. The Dems had more votes they were just playing this so as few as possible conservative Dems needed to vote yes.
Dick Morris explains.
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=14187569&ch=4226716&src=news
“Curiousgeorge (04:43:24) :
I think I’ll just go hug my guns now.”
lucky you, so many people have had that “right” abolished, esp in Australia and New Zealand, and of course, the UK. But I reiterate, most people in western societies have access to easy food (I mean, American society has been known to “break down” because the local chook fried shop, had no chook!!!), “sport”, soap’s, “reality TV”, and all the other BS that is screened on TV, they are totally (Like Thatcher during the Falklands war) unaware of the “policies” implemented by “elected representitives”.
A frog in cold water is easy to boil and “we” are being boiled.
“anna v (00:35:41) :
Actually, Anthony, the image you display for this thread is very phallic, and not commensurate with the content, if you think a bit about it that way.”
I agree, Waxman IS a (snip)head.
Mike
Here’s an idea for the senate. I called my Maryland senator’s office and left a message to the following effect:
“Before you vote on this legislation, please satisfy me that you understand the science of this debate at, at the least, the most basic level. When you look at Al Gore’s graph of the long term correlation between CO2 and Global temperatures, which variable is leading the other by 500-800 years? Please respond with a letter to my address with the answer.”
I did not tell my Senator how to vote, which would in this case have been fruitless. I do have some hope that by framing such a basic question, which I am willing to bet he and his staff do not know the answer to, I may at least shock them into taking another look at the evidence before throwing away a party-line vote.
Such a strategy might be effective with other Senators. It has the advantage of moving the debate beyond the (usually fruitless, given the extent to which the lower brain centers have taken over the thinking of many AGW advocates) usual “yes-no” and instead insists that decision makers actually learn something about the science of the issue. At least in some cases, I am confident that once we get them started on this path, they will join the apostates and cease supporting dubious policy based on stupid science.
Best Wishes to all,
psi
and M. White’s allusion to the BBC report of a 10% increase in power bills over the next 12 months (slipped out whilst our Hoi Poloi outvie each other in mawkish sentiment and psuedo grief at the death of Michael Jackson) will not be the end of it in the UK where we are promised a fourfold realtime increase in energy bills inside the next twenty years.
Polititians on both sides of the pond are now, almost all, professional full time charlatans.
We are now possibly at the apex of global warming collective hysteria. Whether the bill ultimately makes it through the Senate or not, we have reached a tipping point:
— if the bill makes it into law, a huge cap-and-trade market will be created. At some point, this market will crash, as it must inevitably do, since this market will rest on faith and not on science. When the faith goes, the trapdoor will open;
— if the bill doesn’t pass, then the Climate Ayatollahs will have missed their chance to inpose their faith. There will be no second chance as evidence mounts against AGW.
Richard deSousa (19:21:25) : Never overestimate the intelligence of the members of the House of Representatives.” I would add: nor forget they are weasels.
A quick funny… on the not voting list is the name “Flake”. Well I guess so! : )
I wish it had never passed the House because I think the Senate will pass it. This is a peice of legislation not unlike the bank bail out vote last year. Many (citizens) were against it, had made that known, were overwhelmingly against it, yet both house and senate passed it. You know, “in the best interest of the nation” and all that garbage.
However, I would like to point out that our president is under the delusion that govt securitized debt instruments will prop up this kind of spending. He’s been assured by his economic advisors that they will. They won’t. In the past (wild) spending worked because debt to GDP wasn’t in the negative. That is no longer the case, ladies and gents. This should be really interesting, to put it mildly!
It’s nice to claim they are all the same but unfortunately we ARE a two party system and the extreme left is ruining this country and no matter how you slice it it is the Democrats. Think, why is it that the Republicans get all the negative press? Why are the Republicans the party that needs to change?. Lets see the media says it everyday, nothing the Republicans do is enough. OH I hear it already Bush did it, it wasn’t Chris Dodd or Barney Frank or Al Gore, Bush did it. Let me ask you something, which party made sense last night in the so called debate. Our liberties under the democrats is eroding fast and so are our wallets.
Yes but it won’t get through the senate, just as Kyoto rubbish, and the other Waxman malarkey, didn’t get through. There isn’t the will or the majority to even give the House Bill a timetable, let alone a vote. Sen Boxer knows the game is lost. So why has the House wasted so much time and taxpayers cash on this futile farce.
See Sen Inhofe speak at the Washington Climate Conference on June 2nd 2009……….. http://tinyurl.com/inhofe-nipcc
See Sen. Inhofe’s 9 minute speech on the Senate floor, where he “marks the card” for the other Senators, of the results of such a Bill becoming Law. Lest they forget why they refused other similar legislation previously.
“Pierre Gosselin (01:58:28) : Some lessons are only learned the old fashioned, hard way – by living with the consequences of bad decisions.”
You make it sound like America will be free of this some day after it learns it’s lesson. You are thinking politicians in the future will undo this? America is still being pulled down by some things Jimmy Carter did 30 years ago. Those still have not been undone and I don’t have any reason to think they will be at any point in the future.
So you think America will be freed of WaxmanMarkey some day? Tell me how.
“Benjamin (08:16:42) : This is a peice of legislation not unlike the bank bail out vote last year. Many (citizens) were against it,”
I had read back then that calls to politicians were 9 to 1 against the bank bail out.
I heard a politician on the radio yesterday. He said his office and all the other politicians offices he heard about were getting calls that were 20 to 1 against Waxman-Markey. They still passed it.
– if the bill doesn’t pass, then the Climate Ayatollahs will have missed their chance to inpose their faith. There will be no second chance as evidence mounts against AGW.
If Obama doesn’t get this passed now it will not be passed due to the disentegrating economy. What fool would build industry in the USA with this hanging over their head? Whether or not this passes the Senate the economic damage has already been done.
Despite what the talking heads say the economy continues to worsen. There are no green shoots, and any that might have been, have just got a good shot of Roundup.
The question now is not if the economy will suffer another downturn but when and the greater question is will we retain our freedom?.
I heard a politician on the radio yesterday. He said his office and all the other politicians offices he heard about were getting calls that were 20 to 1 against Waxman-Markey. They still passed it
And What does that tell you?? The extreme left cares more about their agenda than the well being and vitality of this country. They are all over the news, you can’t turn around without Obama telling us we have to change EVERYTHING this country has and stands for, come on, wake up!
“Guffaw (08:32:12) : Yes but it won’t get through the senate,”
I’m not a betting man. But boy if I was I’d sure like to make some money off of you.
Guffaw (08:32:12) :
Yes but it won’t get through the senate
Assume that it will.
Plan for such.
Act accordingly.
The time for complacency is over.
Hoping for peace didn’t stop Herr Hitler!
Round 1 to the AGW crowd (barely), but I think the tide is continuing to turn. The reader response to the recent NYT editoral “The House and Global Warming” is a good indicator I think. In the top 25 comments based on reader’s recommendations, I would categorize 22 as being critical of the NYT position, while 2 are favorable and 1 is neutral.
http://community.nytimes.com/comments/www.nytimes.com/2009/06/26/opinion/26fri1.html?sort=recommended
Before our elected law makers vote on bills, should the constituents not have a say in it? I have not looked for, and know nothing about the bill that was passed.
I wonder if the concerns about it are real or if this is another political, “party of NO” sensationalist outcry.
Sadly, I was dead wrong: It passed.
A sausage? More like a Meerkat. I am incoherent with rage.
Just Want Results… (08:42:24) : I had read back then that calls to politicians were 9 to 1 against the bank bail out. I heard a politician on the radio yesterday. He said his office and all the other politicians offices he heard about were getting calls that were 20 to 1 against Waxman-Markey. They still passed it.”
My state reps (called, faxed, and wrote all of them) PROMISED me they weren’t going to vote in favor of the bailouts. Man… Thing is, they give us so much to TRY and keep up with! It’s practically a full-time job trying to herd our government in the right direction. And that is precisely how it SHOULDN’T be, but anyway…
As I said in my first post, about govt securities… Well, this isn’t an economics blog but I will say that this has everything… and I mean EVERYTHING… to do propping up the illusion that the US isn’t flat broke. They all know that they’re not scientists and doctors to be deciding stuff like this (environment, health….). They also know that the Friedman and Keynesian economics that is the back-bone of “capitalism” is just one big sham.
Let me ask you… how is that a govt can issue endless debt (bonds) to the banks, then later, after the credit bubble pops, have the FOMC come in and BUY BACK those debts with newly created money? This “bails out” the banks AND the government, who is now debt free. That is what pops the credit bubble, paying off the debt fraudulently. In turn, those slaughtered in the bubble bust… us… we’re left like sitting ducks.
It not only violates our Constitution, it violates all sense of morality and common sense!
Now, about this cap and trade… Well, like they’re saying, China will “follow us” down the road, but that is clever spin. What they mean is that China will keep buying US govt debt. But the manufacturing jobs that come their way will be… well, collateral of a sorts. But they really want out gold. They’d MUCH rather have that, but if it takes more time for that, they’ll happily take more jobs until then and the economic clout that comes with being number 1 industrialized nation. We won’t be bossing them around, thats for sure. Fact is we don’t even own the gold in the vaults of the central bank, fort Knox etc. Its open to debate/speculation as to who does.
We’re in all likelihood beyond flat broke. Like I said, this will be interesting. Even if they do pass it, it will only reveal that fact. But what else are bluffers to do?
Just Want Results… Did you see the Inhofe Videos ?
He is the man who knows ….
Guffaw (09:44:08) :
I know who Inhofe is. How will he stop Waxman-Markey??
He is the man who knows ….
What does he know? That global warming is a power and money grab? Ok. So do I. So do millions of other people.
That means Waxman-Markey will not pass in Senate?
I’m not a betting man. But boy I could make a lot of money off of you too if I was.
Benjamin (09:41:46) : We’re in all likelihood beyond flat broke.
Nah, they have printing presses.
Guffaw (09:44:08) : Did you see the Inhofe Videos ?
Sure, I’ve seen Inhofe on video. I’ve seen Monckton. I’ve seen Lindzen. I’ve seen Spencer. I’ve seen Christy. I’ve seen Svensmark. I’ve seen Klaus. I’ve seen Plimer. I’ve seen more than probably everyone here, maybe even Anthony.
I’ve seen them. Waxman-Markey still passed.
Have you seen this?
For those who think it barely passed by 1 vote think again.
Watch this video (comes after a short ad)
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=14187569&ch=4226716&src=news
Now we can get on with moving forward! Odd how some folks cling to the 19th century — fraught with fear. There are no BOOGYMEN! We have brain power in America and finally we are going to be able to use it and address living in the 21st century. Hooray for change because it is opportunity in disguise!
Gee Benjamin and it only took Obama 4 months to nearly bankrupt us. Wait until he rams health care on us.
Lawyer mommie; Unfortunately the people who voted on this bill last night didn’t have time to read it either. Are we being represented or not?.
In Oregon, the congressional districts that include major population areas often dictate what the rest of us do. So I hate it when some congressman says I am not a constituent of his. There are 5 districts in Oregon. The vote was 3 to 2 to pass it. One republican and one democrat voted against it. Both have at one time, been my representative. The other three were in districts I did not vote in. Yet it may be that I must bow to their bidding.
In our Republic system of government we have both majority rule and the protection of minority/individual rights. We have both federal rule overriding some state rights and we have states rights crafting their own laws that others must obey as they transit through the state. Therefor the notion that our elected officials are responsible only to their own constituents is in reality, nonsense. Some elected body in a state I don’t live in, gets to dictate to me whether or not I can carry a gun through their state. Which means that New York can tell me, an Oregonian, what to do. I am a constituent of the elected officials from that state, whether they like it or not, and whether I like it or not.
This then leads me to face my responsibility to work as hard towards the removal of elected officials not from my district or state as I would work here at home. And this in addition to my responsibility towards my fellow man to protect his or her right to a dignified and productive life that could easily be taken away should this bill become law and even more jobs get shifted overseas.
So it is us against the government. Not Republicans against Democrats. There is no red blue divide anymore. There is just us. The workers and business owners, large and small, against an ever increasing encroaching and money hungry government supported by and in bed with pork barrel kickbacks buying the votes of weak politicians, wall street influences, and the smell of money dangled from the “willing to break or bend any rule” greedy hands of banks, regardless of party affiliations.
I am responsible to do my part to work against the entire list of yes votes. Why? I am their constituent and they have sold me as a slave to something I breath in and out anyway. And I voted the Democratic ticket.
I wanted Giuliani. You were going that way?
Very much so. He was my first choice.
Not only did I agree with him on almost every issue, but he had the necessary leadership ability. A “Classic” liberal (and, gosh, how that definition has changed).
I had to settle for what we actually got. More of an “against” vote than a “for” vote.
Just Want Results… (10:15:14) : “Nah, they have printing presses.”
That’s right, they do. But you have to understand something. The ONLY reason currencies (any kind) are accepted is because they can be used to buy gold (and/or, for now, gold futures and leases). If the US delays a possible gold default, then they will buy time for paper money (and the govt securities they are backed with). If they don’t delay, currencies won’t be worth the paper it’s written on, no matter how many they print up. So the printing press is meaningless. Can’t print gold, and future contracts and leases are no better than currencies.
They know that as well as any of us do. So CaT will pass because our govt is desperate to avoid that end-game. Either that, or socialized health care will pass. Maybe both. Last year, going against the will of their constituents prevented a gold default from getting worse. I see no reason why they would do different this time around. So far, I;m proven right.
I do not want to be doom-and-gloom myself but there comes a time when the elephant in the room has to be acknowledged. HOW can ANYONE (besides the many poor, scared near half to death kiddies and less able-minded adults) be so stupid to beleive the AGW crap? I gotta confess… I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Most of what I read here at the WUWT site is greek to me ( fascinating greek though 🙂 )
But even I see this for what it is. They aren’t naive to the dissent of the scientific community. These people deal in information and people all over the world. It’s their job to know. They’ve heard both sides. They in all likelihood DO realize that the dissenters are closer to reality if not right on target. But come on… when it comes down to the wealth and power of goverment and an inconvenient dissent… which do you figure will win, given that they aren’t listening to us? I HOPE it will be science and liberty. But I’m not betting on it.
I would therefore recommend, in contacting your reps, to add that you refuse to prop up the government securities market any longer. Not with your health and not with your future, nor that of your kids’ futures and grandkids futures.
Pamela Gray,
“In our Republic[an] system of government we have both majority rule and the protection of minority/individual rights.”
Well, that actually was the case for over 200 years, right up until the last federal election. Now, the rights of the minority are routinely disrespected and ignored, with sneering comments like, “We won.”
There is open hostility expressed almost daily against the minority party [and I’m no Republican] by the Speaker of the House, by the Senate majority leader, and by the president. Even ten years ago, if I had suggested that the majority party’s proposed bill would be withheld from the minority party two hours from the vote — and then one copy was grudgingly provided, to be shared by all 435 Representatives , you would have looked at me like I was a crazy person. And I would have felt crazy for suggesting it.
After winning a close election, most folks would think that the Democrat Party would be magnanimous in victory. It is a spotlight on their universal lack of character that they are being hostile and vindictive.
What causes their all-consuming hatred? And why will not one single elected Democrat speak up publicly, and point out this misplaced arrogance? Because the people who control the party’s purse strings, its media contacts, and its special interest vote buying groups like ACORN make it clear that within the Democrat Party, loyalty to The One is much more important than any loyalty to their constituents.
When Rep. DeFazio commented in a meeting that his constituents had strong reservations about the cost of the stimulus bill, and that he might vote against it, Obama pointedly told him he’d better not, adding: “Don’t think we’re not keeping score, brother.”
The American taxpayer is looked upon by the 2009 majority party as nothing more than sheep to be shorn. Pockets to be picked. They want more of your earnings. Much more. Yesterday’s vote was a big step in that direction.
In the upcoming Senate vote on cap ‘n’ trade, people should be aware that the 17th Amendment changed the dynamics of our Republic. Prior to the passage of the 17th, senators were elected by their state’s Legislature. This was intended to keep the federal government from becoming too powerful; the Constitution’s authors knew exactly what they were doing.
So now, rather than having to answer to their state’s representatives, senators must answer to their Party above all — the Party gives or withholds massive financial support based on the quid-pro-quo of the senator’s toeing the Party line. Both Parties do it; it’s a natural result of the change from a Republic-style election to direct democracy following ratification of the 17th A. Senators still must campaign for election. But when the state Legislature elected them, the state’s priority was #1. Now, winning the Democrat primary in a state like California is tantamount to getting elected. The actual election is simply a formality.
Today, it’s only what the Party’s central committee and the president wants that matters. The state’s citizens get a say in the matter once every six years per senator. But they get sidetracked by peripheral national issues like environmentalism, rather than by the central issue of what is best for the state’s citizens, whom the state’s senators purport to represent.
West Virginia is a prime example. If it were up to the Democrats, every mine worker in the state would be tossed out of his job, with a few crocodile tears and some phony hand-wringing. In Obama’s case they wouldn’t even get that. If I were a coal miner, I’d be very worried right now.
The constituents of the senate are now the Party and its hoard of special interests. The unaffiliated citizens come dead last. Some Representatives received 10 – 1 calls and emails against yesterday’s bill, yet they voted against their constituents, and for the wishes of the national Party. In the case of the Senate, no senator who voted against the wishes of the state’s representatives would keep their job for long. Now, senators are beholden to their Party over their state’s citizens. For several decades some states have paid substantially more in taxes, per capita, than other states. When was the last time any senator publicly protested that state of affairs? They don’t because their allegiance is to the Party, not to their state.
Dr Reese,
Somehow I’m skeptical of your doctorhood [chiropractor, maybe?], because you’re off on a “hooray for change” tangent. Try thinking for a change.
See, “change” has nothing to do with the issue. If you think it does you’re on the wrong site. The question is: does CO2 cause measurable global warming? And: how much of that putative AGW is caused by human emissions? Believing is not an answer. You need real world evidence. And you need to think, rather than hope.
So, how much warming is caused by CO2? My answer is: Almost none. The amount of AGW is so small that it is unmeasurable. GCM’s are nothing but speculative opinions run through a computer; give me the programmer’s chair, and I will produce any results you want. Models are opinions, nothing more. They have their uses. But they are certainly not empirical evidence. Most importantly, they can not predict.
Any supposed warming caused by human activity is completely unproven [I know that as a true believer in hopey change you have a hard time with that concept]. If AGW even exists, it is such a minor issue that it can be completely disregarded. Furthermore, CO2 is an entirely beneficial trace gas. It is no more harmful than H2O. But then again, understanding that takes thinking.
Prove me wrong… if you can. [You must use empirical, real world evidence, not computer models. Good luck.] But don’t tell me this bill is anything good, simply because it’s something that President Hopey Change wanted passed. It is a really huge tax increase, no more and no less — made necessary because of the proposed multi-$trillion expansion of government, promoted by its greedy and conniving special interests.
Just Want Results… Wrote at (10:19:41) :
Guffaw : Did you see the Inhofe Videos ?
JWR: Sure, I’ve seen Inhofe on video.
>>>>>
Yes but you didn’t see these videos, did you ?
You didn’t listen to what Inhofe was saying about Boxer not having enough votes to pass any such Bill. 60 votes are required and Boxer has only a possible 34 votes, or so.
……………………………………………….
JWR: I’ve seen them. Waxman-Markey still passed.
>>>>>
Yes but Waxman and Markey are not Senators are they.
NO PREVIOUS SIMILAR BILL HAS PASSED THE SENATE.
In the USA Laws are neither proposed nor enacted by
The President, are they ? He may like to think so, but
according to The Constitution, that just isn’t the case.
Just Want Results… (10:15:14) : “Nah, they have printing presses”
I wrote an exquiste response and I lost it. So I’m sorry if this sounds abrupt.
Yes, they can print up all they like. But you have to understand that the ONLY reason currencies (any kind) are accepted is because they can purchase gold, and gold futures contracts and leases. So a printing press is meaningless. Can’t print up GOLD gold, and GOLD gold will be demanded if we don’t ship more jobs to China.
That is why they voted in favor of the bank bail outs last year, despite (even among their own ranks) a very strong, if not overwhelming support against that. The Fed Chairman was even confronted, in front of both house and senate, about the possibility of gold default. Ben Bernanke told them something to the effect of “Hey… gold was supposed to be YOUR responsibility… not mine!”
So I have no reason to think they will vote in favor of a default when thus far they’ve been nothing but against that (we can go back years and see similar behavior). Its the elephant in the room that they are absolutely determined to avoid dealing with. I mean come on… How can so many of them actually beleive this dark fairytale of human emissions destroying the earth, given that politicians’ jobs is to take in information and deal with all sorts of people? They must be aware of what the dissent has to say, but why would they care to heed them when it’s the difference between a bit longer in power and wealth and the comfort of evasion?
Therefore, I would recommend that, in communitcating with your reps, that people also tell them that they do not want to prop up the market for govt securities any longer. Not with your health, not with your future nor that of your kids and grandkids.
That is what this all about: using silly stories to prop up the market for government debt obligations.
Vinny said: “Gee Benjamin and it only took Obama 4 months to nearly bankrupt us. Wait until he rams health care on us.”
He wants to tax it too. Repubs and Dems alike are just merely in minor disagreement on the details. Anyway, he had help from at least 30 years of politicians before him. He’s just the coup de grace, which will happen faster, I think, if we don’t errect windmills and nationalize hospitals and such.
Anyway, guys, nice talking to you both. I’ve done enough yapping for one day!
Here’s a book that may help explain why things keep getting worse politically, election after election.
“How does it become a man to behave toward this American government today? I answered that he cannot without disgrace be associated with it.” Henry David Thoreau
Anthropogenic Spongification!
A new danger now stalks the ecosphere. Outlined in the May 2009 Atlantic Monthly, “rampant sponge reproduction” threatens to suck up the world’s oceans. Before you snicker, remember there were other environmental alarms initially rejected as silly. Who would have thought, for instance, that carbon dioxide, an atmospheric trace gas vital to plant life, from crops to rainforests, would be revealed as a toxic pollutant?
The sponge, a marine invertebrate once thought harmless, even beneficial, soaks up ten times its weight in water. If sponge populations are permitted to escalate, our oceans will disappear, warns an upcoming report from a UN panel of sponging experts.
Evidence of the impending catastrophe rests on ingenious computer models that predict explosive growth in sponges over the next 50 years, 5 weeks, 8 hours, 26 minutes. Incorporating the assumption that love owes more to proximity than affinity, these models predict that as sponge population densities increase, sex-crazed sponges will multiply at an ever-accelerating rate. In science, this is known as “positive feedback.” The resulting, ominous “hockey puck” pie chart shows the oceans transformed into one, enormous sponge.
Media reports allow no doubt that sponges are proliferating. This appears to correlate with the post-industrial shift from natural sponge harvesting to manufactured, icky plastic sponges—proof that the looming disaster is anthropogenic, which is Greek for “all our fault.”
Skeptics are dismissed, since four out of five researchers whose funding relates to Anthropogenic Global Spongification believe it a real and swelling problem, even though an unaccountable sponge decline in the past few years has redefined the threat as “Anthropogenic Sponge Change.”
But don’t worry. The EPA has declared H2O a toxic pollutant, and Congress is responding to the crisis with a huge tax, called “Cap and Squeeze,” to reduce man-made sponge. In support, a certain former Vice President plans a new video, “An Inconvenient Sop,” featuring desolate vistas of the Potomac mudflats, and giant sucking sounds, designed to frighten schoolchildren (as well it should). Economic and job losses will be offset, the President assures us, as working Americans learn to subsist by diving for renewable, all-natural, organic sponges.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/06/26/house.energy/index.html
I, for one, don’t belong to any special interest organization nor do I allow others to ask me to do something I personally do not have valid justification for doing.
I suspect that the vote Gonzalez cast was closely in line with requests of ‘special interest’ groups close to him.
Max (12:46:43) :
Anthropogenic Spongification!
Too funny! Well done
This is appalling news. And do you know what? It hasn’t been reported over this side of the pond. All we’re getting is Michael Jackson this and Michael Jackson that.
The MSM have really excelled themselves. NOT!
Interesting that Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) voted nay. He opposed the TARP bill too, as I recall.
Hu,
Dennis has a hard time thinking on his own. He’s awaiting orders from the mother ship: click
Dr Reese (10:23:08) :
Now we can get on with moving forward! Odd how some folks cling to the 19th century — fraught with fear. There are no BOOGYMEN! We have brain power in America and finally we are going to be able to use it and address living in the 21st century. Hooray for change because it is opportunity in disguise!
Dr Reese,
Always interesting to meet people who confuse a “coup” against humanity with “opportunity”.
Couple of things: Congressman Jeff Flake (R, AZ)’s website states that he was not present to vote on Waxman-Malarkey because of a “family obligation.” I’m not really certain, but I think I read that his father passed away, quite recently. Someone is welcome to correct this, but given Flake’s adamant opposition to the bill, he must have had a darn good reason and deserves a pass in the upcoming RINO hunt. He’s a real elephant.
Max (Headroom, I presume), that was a hoot. We’ve missed you since your TV show was cancelled back in the 70’s. Visit more often!
Finally, Henry “Meerkat” Waxman misses the most noticeable feature of Hank ‘da Wax.’ You know that operation thingy they do to turn up the tip of your beak- I think it’s called a “Nosejob?” Considering his home district, West Hollywood CA, it’s probably safe to assume he’s had a few too many.
From: iceagenow.com for pdf download entire article.
The vindication of carbon means the vindication of human freedom
By Robert D. Brinsmead
The war on carbon is an ill-disguised war on humanity. It is time to rip
away the mask and expose the movement whose real aim is to put the
human race in chains to a system that controls every aspect of human
existence. It is time to stand up and say, “You take your jackboots off
my carbon and off my life.”
This is a good read for those who think that the Waxman Climate Bill is all about “opportunity”, promotion of green technology and the improvement of the environment.
Hooray for change because it is opportunity in disguise!
One hell of a disguise.
Smokey (11:56:54) :
‘…….simply because it’s something that President Hopey Change wanted passed. It is a really huge tax increase, no more and no less — ‘
It is also a transfer of wealth to other nations with nothing in return.
President Obama says this will make us energy independent. What he doesn’t tell us we will be dependent to other nations for carbon credit.
Can you say support your local dictator
Waxman Markey Bill
The longest suicide note in history
So much for that “servant of the people” idea. Oh, and throw the whole “REPRESENTATIVE GOVERNMENT” idea out the window too. The new meme of the week is “if too many people are against what I’m doing, they must be some ‘special interest’ group”.
I’m thinking the majority of the current crop of “D” representatives were exposed to too much LDS in the 60s (it’s a Star Trek 4 quote). There is nothing else I can think of that adequately explains their inability to see that what they are doing is wrong. Oh yeah, it would be easy to think they’re just going ahead and doing what they know is wrong… but why assume malice when ignorance is such an accurate assessment?
So in future, I read the names on what we used to call “Representatives” and I will always see the “D” as meaning “Dimwit”. Also possible: dense, dullard, dopehead, dented, deluded, deceived. The “R” people, on the other hand, appear to be “Realist”. Also possible: reliable, representative. Once in a while one of the “D” people puts an “R” beside their name, and it’s sad but true that the “R” in that case stands for “retarded”.
Obviously some of the posts here are a little over the top but the anger of most here is palpabl and understandable. However you should remember the adage “don’t get mad, get even” and that has always been done in this great country at the ballot box, which is where your energies should be directed. A calm rational approach led by someone like Anthony, Roger Pielke Sr., or Richard Lindzen is necessary for the masses to proceed in the same direction on this. A movement without a strong leader consists of aimlessly wandering in the wilderness and getting nowhere fast. This also is much more than a Democrat or Republican issue (both parties are interested only in keeping power) but more about who rules this country, the politicians or the people? By all means though contact your Senators and express your strong misgivings about spending our national treasure on a problem that most likely doesn’t even exist. We have enough TRUE problems in this country to get about solving than to throw money after one that is not. It is highly unlikely we can defeat this in the Senate so we should immediately start developing contingency plans (on a forum like this) that we all can get behind when B-HO ultimately signs this into law. To think we have come to this point largely as a result of two ideologues who have pushed this (Gore and Hansen) is terrifying to most sane Americans who understand this could very well be the death knell for what was once the greatest economy in history.
This is the part I don’t get. What do I do when my party changes its underlying premise to one I can’t support? The platforms of all our parties have morphed so many times it is hard to tell what century this is. The Republicans are hard bent to bow to the intelligently designed right, and the Democrats are hard bent to bow to the earth muffins of the left. They both worship psuedo-science complete with a god attached. The only difference is that one is manly and gray-haired, and the other is a woman with bugs in her dread locks.
Where did these groups come from? I wish they would form their own parties instead of hijacking mine. Even the Independent party candidate was of the intelligently designed right and forked up the same old tired line that there is a higher law that supersedes common sense and practicality. Are we growing fields of “stupid” and putting it into our milk along with the other stuff that’s in there? Has the iodine in salt been replaced by vitamin “S”? I am left lamenting my once dear home and the party my grandfather belonged to (granted, he was a prejudiced southern democrat but the party had changed when I came of age).
Little Bo-Peep has lost her peep,
And can’t tell where to find them;
They gave them a bone, they took my home,
Leaving me to wander around dem.
Want to bring this to your attention, congress critters who voted YES to the bill can still change their vote by July 2nd:
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/97723
From the site:
The following republicans voted FOR the largest tax bill ever passed by a session of Congress.
1) Click on their link.
2) Select the ‘Contact’ tab.
Contact their local office as they are not in DC and home on vacation.
Mary Bono Mack R (CA)
Mike Castle R (DW)
Mark Steven Kirk R (IL)
Leonard Lance R (NJ)
Frank LoBiondo R (NJ)
John McHugh R (NY)
Dave Reichert R (WA)
Chris Smith R (NJ)
In the U S ones home is usually the greater part of ones personal property.If this bill passes the senate it will virtually abrogate personal property rights in the U S because the value and therefore the sales price of the property will be decided by Commissar Waxman’s and Comrade Pelosi’s Climate Police disguised as property appraisers. The bill nationalises all building codes and sets national standard for property appraisers and provides money to train the Appraisal Enforcers in the “right ” way to make the appraisal in line with government regulations.
Furthermore to emphasise that your house belongs to the state and not to you any alterations or improvements will have to be approved by inspectors using federal standards to ensure that they comply with their carbon – cap bill regulations. Such regulations will also override any deed restrictions, HOA bye laws , covenants etc.
All this based on the IPCC – Al Gore scientifically fraudulent paradigm of a world warming because of anthropogenic CO2 when the real world has been cooling for 5 years and when 2008 was cooler than 1997- 11 years with CO2 up 6% and no net warming.
This Bill should be the central issue in the mid -term elections and the subject of tea- parties all over the country. Please make sure that all the homeowners in your subdivision know what’s in this property nationalisation bill.
This is my perspective from across the pond
Your elected representatives will not have the time to read the complete bill in Senate, nor the wit to understand it. There is also no point in using this as an extension of the recent election by treating this as a political battle. The democrats have the majority and want this bill. You need to engage in rational arguements that cover the science and financial consequences. In that way you cover the whole political spectrum, not just part of it.
Surely you need;
a) a summary of printed information giving the facts succinctly that is sent to each senator
b) a dedicated web site which again succinctly, rationally and aploitically will sum up the situiation, with appropriate links to sensible and reasoned short articles that give the alternative view.
Your elected representatives then each need to be asked to read the printed summary and to visit the web site. If sufficient of their electorate ask them to do this they may listen.
Try and keep the politics out of it-there seem to be a fair few outraged right wingers commenting here, and at present they are outnumbered and it is pointless to fight the battle on such unpromising ground.
Tonyb
“The Liberal-Democratic wing of the ruling Establishment Party pushed through a climate-change bill that upset members of the Conservative-Republican wing of the same Establishment Party. The Republicans squawked that the voluminous bill was not even available for reading at the time of the vote, forgetting that the same complaint was offered when the Democrats were on the receiving end of the Republicans “Patriot Act” measure a few years back.”
Won’t have time to read it? It’s not even written yet. I’d say it’s high time some folks began being as skeptical of their government as they are of AGW.
Amazing, Brian. The Patriot Act was an attempt to respond to a real, confirmed, active threat (for those with REALLY bad memories, that threat took down New York City’s two tallest buildings, complete with people and contents, with no warning and caused thousands of deaths, and took an immeasurable amount of money out of the economy for an unknown amount of time, and caused millions, or maybe billions of people inconvenience and anguish. Also, for those who get their opinions from the media and missed this important point, that threat also attacked the Pentagon, which can ONLY be seen as a declaration of war).
In contrast, Cap-n-Tax is a tax-grab being justified by a belief.
Comparing the two is like, well, is there even an analogy? Maybe it’s like comparing apples to light.
Yep, I’d say it’s high time some folks began being as skeptical of their government as they are of AGW.
Eight Republicans voted for this bill. Follow the link below to see who the RINOs are. If only four had voted with their party we would not have this yoke around our necks.
——- http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/conservativerascal ——-
PS: Don’t let the “my.barackobama.com” part fool you. Just go there and you will see what I mean.
Regarding the recently passed Waxman-Markey “climate change” bill …
“Never have so few stolen so much from so many to achieve so little.”
– political blog pundit Stephen Green
Climate BS from the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/29/opinion/29krugman.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1246280601-fCVbfCgdQFOlqtMP1MRaGQ
GREAT NEWS!
Word is that Harry Reid has pronounced Cap ‘n Trade dead on arrival in the Senate. He’s not even going to bring it up.
That means that not only would it not pass filibuster, but it probably is well short of passage even if it made the floor.
Ain’t hap’n’n, Cap’n!
As a result of this last election and this energy bill, I have become very skeptical of politicians in general, regardless of their color or creed. I don’t care if they are RINO’s, DINO’s, Red, Blue, or have D or R listed after their name. There seems to be a class of people we are willing to vote for just because they give us a favorite bone. We’ll stomach this in order to get that. Or we’ll stomach that in order to get this. Are we all that willing to compromise? Why must I be the one to compromise with the “intelligently designed” right or the “loony left”? When did I get so @*&(*%* complacent about the politicians I have voted for? I know this sounds like a cop-out, but it just may be that I will be voting “none of the above” a lot more often than I used too. With my mindset as it is now, I would not have voted for any of the politicians on the presidential ticket.
Hey Pamela, I agree with you. In Canada we are seeing the party we elected (Conservatives), mainly to avoid electing the Liberals and their carbon tax, now support a cap and trade. It is like there is someone telling these parties, “hey guys, you can tax your citizens on heat and lights, take their last dime” . I had thought these last 11 years of cooling would make it clear that these is no AGW. Not even a flicker. I am having the same discussions with fellow Conservatives, we need a new grass roots party, like the Reform party was before it aligned into the Conservatives. I have renounced my party membership and will not give them another dime. Why, when they will take it?
Pam, we Dems here (or perhaps I should say former Dems now), are undoubtedly now people without a party, or I guess Independents. I split my vote in the last election, the first time since the 70’s solely because of the AGW/CC issue. I truly believe that this issue outweighs all others, and that is sad, because there are truly some very important other issues out there. But, until this AGW/CC monstrosity is defeated, nothing else matters because what’s at stake here ultimately, is Truth and Democracy. From now on, the one and only litmus test, for me, will be on which side a candidate falls on this issue. With a vote like this, of course, it’s easy, but with new candidates it means scrutinizing any voting record and/or what their stated position is.
This means that in the last election, if the choice had been between Obama and Bush (although even he was starting to cave a little), I would have voted for Bush, whom I have despised with a passion.
The final bill with the amendments collated in is now available.
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h2454eh.txt.pdf
The buying of the Ration and Tax bill — naked corruption
“When House Democratic leaders were rounding up votes Friday for the massive climate-change bill, they paid special attention to their colleagues from Ohio who remained stubbornly undecided.
They finally secured the vote of one Ohioan, veteran Democratic Rep. Marcy Kaptur of Toledo, the old-fashioned way. They gave her what she wanted – a new federal power authority, similar to Washington state’s Bonneville Power Administration, stocked with up to $3.5 billion in taxpayer money available for lending to renewable energy and economic development projects in Ohio and other Midwestern states.
House Energy and Commerce Chairman Henry A. Waxman, California Democrat, included the Kaptur project in a 310-page amendment to the legislation unveiled at 3 a.m. Friday, just hours before the bill was to be debated on the House floor. The amendment was packed with other vote-getting provisions, both large and small, that had been sought by dozens of wavering Democrats.
The wheeling and dealing proved successful. Mr. Waxman and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, California Democrat, backed by the personal lobbying of President Obama, won over enough lawmakers to pass the bill narrowly Friday evening, 219-212.”
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jul/01/sweetener-helped-sway-vote-on-house-climate-bill/
What scientific arguments can curb this madness when it is based on corruption!
Waxman and Pelosi’s home state of California will get money funneled in from the taxpayers of most other states: click
Folks in those other states might want to consider contacting their senators and pointing this out, as another reason to vote against the bill.