From Dr Roy Spencer’s Global Warming Blog
by Roy W. Spencer, Ph. D.
2025 was the 2nd warmest year (a distant 2nd behind 2024) in the 47-year satellite record
The Version 6.1 global average lower tropospheric temperature (LT) anomaly for December, 2025 was +0.30 deg. C departure from the 1991-2020 mean, down from the November, 2025 value of +0.43 deg. C. (In the following plot note that the 13-month centered-average trace [red curve] has now been updated after several months of not being updated).

The Version 6.1 global area-averaged linear temperature trend (January 1979 through December 2025) remains at +0.16 deg/ C/decade (+0.22 C/decade over land, +0.13 C/decade over oceans).
2025 Ended the Year as a Distant 2nd Warmest Behind 2024
The following plot shows the ranking of the 47 years in the UAH satellite temperature record, from the warmest year (2024) to the coolest (1985). As can be seen, 2024 really was an anomalously warm year, more than can be attributed to El Nino alone.

The next plot shows how our UAH LT yearly anomalies compare to those posted on the WeatherBell website (subscription required) for the surface air temperatures from NOAA’s Climate Data Assimilation System (CDAS). There is pretty good correspondence between the two datasets, with LT having warm outliers during major El Ninos (especially 1987, 1998, 2010, and 2024). This behavior is due to extra heating of the troposphere (which LT measures) during El Nino by enhanced deep moist convection in the tropics when the tropical Pacific Ocean surface warms from reduced upwelling of cold water from below, an effect exaggerated by the several-month lag of tropospheric warming behind surface warming during El Nino:

The following table lists various regional Version 6.1 LT departures from the 30-year (1991-2020) average for the last 24 months (record highs are in red).
| YEAR | MO | GLOBE | NHEM. | SHEM. | TROPIC | USA48 | ARCTIC | AUST |
| 2024 | Jan | +0.80 | +1.02 | +0.57 | +1.20 | -0.19 | +0.40 | +1.12 |
| 2024 | Feb | +0.88 | +0.94 | +0.81 | +1.16 | +1.31 | +0.85 | +1.16 |
| 2024 | Mar | +0.88 | +0.96 | +0.80 | +1.25 | +0.22 | +1.05 | +1.34 |
| 2024 | Apr | +0.94 | +1.12 | +0.76 | +1.15 | +0.86 | +0.88 | +0.54 |
| 2024 | May | +0.77 | +0.77 | +0.78 | +1.20 | +0.04 | +0.20 | +0.52 |
| 2024 | June | +0.69 | +0.78 | +0.60 | +0.85 | +1.36 | +0.63 | +0.91 |
| 2024 | July | +0.73 | +0.86 | +0.61 | +0.96 | +0.44 | +0.56 | -0.07 |
| 2024 | Aug | +0.75 | +0.81 | +0.69 | +0.74 | +0.40 | +0.88 | +1.75 |
| 2024 | Sep | +0.81 | +1.04 | +0.58 | +0.82 | +1.31 | +1.48 | +0.98 |
| 2024 | Oct | +0.75 | +0.89 | +0.60 | +0.63 | +1.89 | +0.81 | +1.09 |
| 2024 | Nov | +0.64 | +0.87 | +0.40 | +0.53 | +1.11 | +0.79 | +1.00 |
| 2024 | Dec | +0.61 | +0.75 | +0.47 | +0.52 | +1.41 | +1.12 | +1.54 |
| 2025 | Jan | +0.45 | +0.70 | +0.21 | +0.24 | -1.07 | +0.74 | +0.48 |
| 2025 | Feb | +0.50 | +0.55 | +0.45 | +0.26 | +1.03 | +2.10 | +0.87 |
| 2025 | Mar | +0.57 | +0.73 | +0.41 | +0.40 | +1.24 | +1.23 | +1.20 |
| 2025 | Apr | +0.61 | +0.76 | +0.46 | +0.36 | +0.81 | +0.85 | +1.21 |
| 2025 | May | +0.50 | +0.45 | +0.55 | +0.30 | +0.15 | +0.75 | +0.98 |
| 2025 | June | +0.48 | +0.48 | +0.47 | +0.30 | +0.80 | +0.05 | +0.39 |
| 2025 | July | +0.36 | +0.49 | +0.23 | +0.45 | +0.32 | +0.40 | +0.53 |
| 2025 | Aug | +0.39 | +0.39 | +0.39 | +0.16 | -0.06 | +0.82 | +0.11 |
| 2025 | Sep | +0.53 | +0.56 | +0.49 | +0.35 | +0.38 | +0.77 | +0.30 |
| 2025 | Oct | +0.53 | +0.52 | +0.55 | +0.24 | +1.12 | +1.42 | +1.67 |
| 2025 | Nov | +0.43 | +0.59 | +0.27 | +0.24 | +1.32 | +0.78 | +0.36 |
| 2026 | Dec | +0.30 | +0.45 | +0.15 | +0.19 | +2.10 | +0.32 | +0.38 |
The full UAH Global Temperature Report, along with the LT global gridpoint anomaly map for December, 2025 as well as a global map of the 2025 anomalies and a more detailed analysis by John Christy, should be available within the next several days here.
The monthly anomalies for various regions for the four deep layers we monitor from satellites will be available in the next several days at the following locations:
I felt it.
Yay! Another update for the Imaginary Number.
Alberts
I would understand your reaction if you were able to technically contradict Roy Spencer’s work; but all you are able to do is to polemically discredit and denigrate it.
A nice drop 👍 🤗
That should be Dec 2025 at the bottom of the table.
How much lower will it go, I wonder
Guess the climate yappers will have to wait for the next El Nino. 😉
Or super el nino
Or Hunga-Tonga.
Is the HT volcano still rumbling away ?? Not sure where to find out.
Not sure if that was meant to be a sarcastic statement or not, but in any event there is this:
From the above article:
“. . . global average lower tropospheric temperature (LT) anomaly for December, 2025 was +0.30 deg. C departure from the 1991-2020 mean, . . .”
That means the December 2025 anomaly is actually 0.1°C lower than the previous January 2020 peak value (+0.4°C) in the running 13-month centered average anomaly trending. This is within the typical range of UAH reported month-to-month variability.
Can we now admit that that effects of the January 2022 Hunga-Tonga volcano eruption are now over, assuming that that eruption actually caused ANY significant perturbations to Earth’s atmospheric temperatures beginning January 2022?
So much for the HT eruption and injection of “massive amounts of water” into the stratosphere causing a global warming trend that many asserted would last five years or longer.
It did cause massive rainfall events.
Got any scientific paper that you care to cite that supports that claim?
The data clearly shows that the Lower Stratosphere on average contains much more water vapor than before the H2 eruption. We are still under the effects, but the effects are subsiding. ENSO perturbations appear to be primary forcing at this climatic juncture.
The Quasi-biennial Oscillation (QBO) MLS Water
1) I assume your reference to “the H2 eruption” is actually to the January 2022 Hunga-Tonga undersea volcano eruption.
2) Westfieldmike’s comment, to which I responded, was about rainfall, not about water vapor content in the troposphere, which can vary greatly (an order-of-magnitude) month-to-month regionally.
3) Being “still under the effects” is apparently not reflected in the UAH satellite-based measurements of GLAT, as I noted above. Also, it is obvious that the H-T eruption took on the order 14-16 months to make an asserted change in UAH GLAT trending, if it made any perturbation at all.
4) We have been in a very weak La Niña since end-November 2025 (see attached graph) . . . this would not be consistent with a full 0.13 °C decrease in UAH GLAT between end-November and end-December 2025, discounting measurement uncertainty.
Note: attached graph copied from https://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/lanina/enso_evolution-status-fcsts-web.pdf
with this introductory text:
“Negative subsurface temperature anomalies persisted through April 2025. Weak positive anomalies were present from mid-April through early July. Negative anomalies emerged in mid-July 2025 and persisted
through mid-December 2025. Recent anomalies were slightly positive.”
There was an eruption from 1875, Askja, and it appeared to put a substantial amount of water vapor into the stratosphere. Global SST temps show a similar delayed response as the HT eruption does. The Askja event seems to indicate that the effects lingered for at least half a decade. The Askja event, WWII and HT are the top three anomalies in our history of measuring the oceans temps with a thermometer, and they can all be explained by stratospheric water vapor perturbations.
Abrupt shifts between wet and dry phases of the 1875 eruption of Askja Volcano: Microscopic evidence for macroscopic dynamics – ScienceDirect
Of course, the Wright brothers flew the first engine powered airplane flight in 1903 . . . that would be about 28 years after 1875.
Moreover, the first real use of weather balloons to measure atmospheric parameters at more more than a couple of hundred feet altitude above ground level is attributed to the French meteorologist Leon Teisserenc de Bort. He was actively launching weather balloons as early as 1896 . . . that would be, yeah, about 21 years after 1875. His work was instrumental in the discovery of the tropopause and stratosphere.
(ref: https://www.highaltitudescience.com/pages/intro-to-weather-balloons ).
And this:
“On April 28, 1902, Teisserenc de Bort announced to the French Academy of Science that he discovered a layer of the atmosphere where the temperature stays the same with altitude. He called this layer of the atmosphere the stratosphere.”
(source: https://scied.ucar.edu/learning-zone/atmosphere/history-discovery-atmosphere )
So, please let me know the scientific reasoning/data supporting your claim of the 1875 Askja volcano eruption putting ANY calculated amount of water vapor into Earth’s stratosphere, which wan’t even know to exist then (as opposed to just into the troposphere).
Ridiculous claim! . . .there were NO global SST measurements available in 1875 nor even in 1880.
You are a freaking mess. Sounds like you need to keep staring at your chemtrails, that is the most unscientific rant I have ever heard, good day.
” Or Hunga-Tonga. ”
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Not sure.
I can only confirm what commenter ‘ToldYouSo‘ already wrote.
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First, of the more than ten articles about HTE that I’ve downloaded since the Jan 2022 outbreak, almost all of them, seemingly in lockstep, have merely highlighted the unusually high amount of water transported to the stratosphere, its expected resulting cooling and a correspondingly expected warming of the atmospheric layers below, down to the surface.
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Only one of these studies, however, reported a detailed analysis of aerosols produced after HTE in the stratosphere, pointing to the following findings:
This study was led by a specialist in atmospheric optics.
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Second, some assisting data might help in questioning HTE’s real effect.
Let us compare in a graph
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In the graph we see that while UAH’s extreme peak in 2024 is clearly visible, its correlation to a major decrease in stratospheric behavior in its lower and mid sublayers is not visible at all – unlike the major increases caused by the El Chichon and Pinatubo eruptions which both resulted in LT cooling phases.
All running means at the end of the three time series (LT, LS at 100 hPa, MS at 30 hPa) start long before HTE.
Why is it that the table listing the various regional Version 6.1 LT departures from the 30-year (1991-2020) average for the last 24 months (record highs in red) shows that the record highs are in the early part of the calendar year, the warmest period for the Southern Hemisphere, but the coolest period for the Northern Hemisphere?
For us in the Southern Hemisphere I would like to see the UAH v6.1 Global Temperature Updatealso presented comparing each of the hemispheres.
kalsel3294
The numbers posted for UAH are all anomalies with annual cycle removal; you thus don’t see the seasonal differences in these numbers.
The reason for the SH anomalies to be lower than the NH anomalies is due to the fact that SH is dominated by oceans while NH is dominated by land masses.
Please look at the trends at the end of
https://vortex.nsstc.uah.edu/data/msu/v6.1/tlt/uahncdc_lt_6.1.txt
I was expecting that if the warming was being reflected more in rising minimum temperatures then that would be reflected in the corresponding seasonal readings in each hemisphere.
I have long understood the reason for the difference in each hemisphere but not why it is not reflected in the policies developed by the politicians in the SH.
When you say minimum temperature do you mean the diurnal minimum or the seasonal minimum? Either way the warming is more pronounced during both the diurnal and seasonal minimum so I’m not sure it would matter either way in the context of your post. One possible explanation for the deviation between your expectation and the UAH TLT anomalies is the location of the observation. The diurnal and seasonal bias of the warming is most pronounced near the surface. The effect is attenuated higher up where UAH TLT observations are focused.
I was thinking with regards to location as SH vs NH.
“Why is it that the table listing the various regional Version 6.1 LT departures from the 30-year (1991-2020) average for the last 24 months (record highs in red) shows that the record highs are in the early part of the calendar year, the warmest period for the Southern Hemisphere, but the coolest period for the Northern Hemisphere?”
Good spotting! It is a real physical phenomenon that is caused by the Earth reaching the point in its orbit which is closest to the Sun (its ‘perigee’) a little after January 1st in each year. This is also the point where the solar radiation impinging on the Earth reaches its greatest intensity. It is not dependent on Earth’s internal relationship between Northern and Southern hemispheres, as it is caused primarily by the Earth’s location in its slightly elliptical orbit. Though this is not to say that it doesn’t have different effects and consequences for the Northern and Southern hemispheres, of course.
The difference in the orbit as well as the tilt reflects a differing variance for the temperature data sets. Since the anomalies inherit the variances of the parent data sets that means the anomalies all have different variances as well. It follows then that any averaging should be done on a weighted basis to account for the differing variances. Another problem with climate science that just throws everything into the same pot.
Must be the averaged year because the 2025 Peak was below both the 2016 peal and the 1998 peak as well as 2024.
Yep, the El Nino effect was very persistent, I suspect something to do with the HT eruption WV…
…. hence yearly averages were higher over a 3 year period.
Climate yappers love El Nino events, because they also affect surface temperatures.
But El Ninos are nothing to do with CO2 or any other human causation.
(graph explanation… El Ninos adjusted to start of year = 0 on horizontal axis, and same anomaly at start of El Nino event)
You can see that the 2023/4/5 El Nino started earlier and lasted a lot longer, but the peak was basically the same as the 1998 El Nino.
13 month running averages.
TempLS surface anomaly average also put 2025 in second place, behind 2024 and about tied with 2023, but well ahead of 2020 or 2016. The relatively cool December brought it down.
Patchy in the NH from the wobbly jet stream / vortex
And remember, GHCN is based on unfit for purpose, and “adjusted” surface sites.
All the atmospheric warming in 2023, 24 was from the El Nino event which is now nearly subsided, hence cooling since mid 2024.
No evidence of any human caused warming.
Once again, the Northern Hemisphere extratropical landmasses in winter win the positive-anomaly award. Clearly, we need to ban fossil fuels and destroy capitalism in order to survive this onslaught of tepid weather.
If that is how the warming is going to transpire we clearly need more of it because it’s landing in the right places.
Averages of averages of averages.
(Tmax + Tmin)/2 is not the temperature average anywhere on a rotating sphere.
I find it very strange that the contour plot of GHCNV4+ERSSTv5 temperature anomalies across the global for the month of December show that the land temperatures of South America along the equator have the same temperature anomaly (within 0.4 °C, indicated by white color) as is the anomaly over the Atlantic Ocean along the equator and that is also the same anomaly as indicated from the Indian Ocean along the equator from Africa to near Indonesia.
In fact for an anomaly base that averages 29 years of data (1991–2020), the odds of all those regions being within ± 0.2 °C of the 29 year-average for a single month are so low as to lead me to conclude the plot is GIGO.
This is further confirmed by the very many regions encompassing both land and sea areas that show the “same” temperature anomalies (color codes for 0.3, 0.5 or 1.0 °C, positive or negative, temperature spans) with smooth contours crossing the land-ocean interfaces. This stinks of massive data “smoothing” (aka, data manipulation) for those that understand how the heat capacity between land and ocean water typically results in temperature differences between the two due to thermal lag times.
Yeah, GIGO.
Yeah, GIGO.
Amen!
Funny how anomalies can be quoted to 1/1000ths of a degree, but graphs never show that resolution.
Willis posted a thread some time back that showed N Africa quite differently.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2025/12/18/a-spherical-cow-climate-model-that-actually-works/
“I find it very strange…”
Here is the UAH plot for November 2025. A month earlier, and lower resolution. But it can certainly happen.
Well, it appears you did not look at the much more course contour resolution scale of the UAH plot compared to the GHCNV4+ERSSTv5 . . . the white color range for the UAH plot covers an anomaly span of 1 °C, whereas as I previously noted the white color range for the GHCNV4+ERSSTv5 plot covers an anomaly span of 0.4 °C. Huge difference (in terms of anomaly values).
Also, it’s curious that you chose to present a UAH plot for November temperature anomalies instead of one for December for direct comparison to the December GHCNV4+ERSSTv5 plot of temperature anomalies . . . perhaps I digress, perhaps not.
Finally, there is the substantial difference between combined land and sea surface temperatures/anomalies (i.e., GHCNV4+ERSSTv5 data) and lower troposphere air temperatures/anomalies (UAH data), resulting mostly from the heat capacities (thermal inertias) of the respective media being measured . . . but maybe you don’t consider that fact to be relevant.
November is the latest they have. I noted the lower resolution. But all I’m showing is that what you find strange can actually happen.
Anyone who wants to see bnice2k’s technical incompetence and his constant tendency towards polemics, only needs to compare Nick Stokes’ graph with Roy Spencer’s…
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And maybe bnice2k finally manages to stop his constant barking and ankle-biting at NOAA’s GHCN when looking at a comparison I made last year, of data related to the Canadian Vancouver region
to demonstrate how near the three actually are:
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But I have some little doubt…
It appears from the chart that for most of 2025 the monthly temperature anomalies have been decreasing. The monthly C02 concentration in the atmosphere has steadily increased in 2025 from 425 ppm in December 2024 to 427 ppm in December 2025. This appears to be the exact opposite as proposed by AGW theory!
This is what AGW theory predicted. The observations through 2025 are consistent with the theory.
The theory of what, exactly? The theory that says every change is bad and caused by humans?
No. I’m talking about the theory that says atmospheric temperatures are driven by the net effect of all factors acting on the atmosphere.
That’s not a theory. That’s a tautology.
you shouldn’t use those big words when talking with warmunists. Goes right over their heads.
That is a fair critique. AGW theory is a mechanistic theory of radiative forcing and feedbacks that predicts specific spatial, vertical, and temporal warming patterns from increased anthropogenic greenhouse gases, bdgwx is rightly pointing out that observations are consistent with these predicted patterns.
True!…… But do you not contemplate the possibility that you could be adding 1+1 = 2.5?
IE, just because CO2 is rising plus temperature is rising does that necessarily have to mean it equals catastrophic climate change?
Sure, in that it’s a multifaceted problem that extends beyond scientific inquiry. Science can tell us what is happening (patterns of observed change like rising surface temperature and cooling stratosphere), provide a model, or theory, to explain why (radiative greenhouse effect from anthropogenic CO2 emissions), and let us use that model to anticipate potential future states (projections). It doesn’t tell us how we should feel about those future states, or what we want to do about them.
The “why” is is the problem. Without a validated model, any projections are like saying a 50% chance of rain. I can flip a coin and be as accurate!
Observations consistent with predictions validate the theory, as bdgwx points out.
In order to validate a theory one must have experimental data showing a mathematical functional relationship. A correlation between two time series is not functional relationship. I could graph postal rates vs time and get a good validation too.
You need to up your game.
I agree that correlation alone does not establish causation, and I have not argued otherwise. Climate theory is not validated by correlating CO2 and temperature time series, but by applying experimentally validated physics like radiative transfer, thermodynamics, and fluid dynamics to the atmosphere. These frameworks yield quantitative, testable predictions (e.g., spectral changes in outgoing radiation, tropospheric warming with stratospheric cooling, ocean heat uptake). When observations repeatedly match these predictions across independent lines of evidence, confidence in the theory increases.
Exactly which model has achieved nirvana and is now considered practical for accurate future forecasting? I would hope that would be covered exhaustively in the news.
Please don’t try to convince me that averaging multiple wrong models provides a far more accurate forecast. That would just display how little you know about uncertainty.
Climate theory doesn’t hinge on a single “best” model. Models are tools to explore uncertainty and test physical consistency, not arbiters of truth. The underlying physics and observed fingerprints exist independently of any particular model or ensemble.
“Models are tools to explore uncertainty and test physical consistency”
ROFL!! Except the uncertainty is *NEVER* explored. And the physical consistency between models is non-existent!
“The underlying physics and observed fingerprints exist independently of any particular model or ensemble.”
Pure and utter malarky! Word salad at its finest! If the models and ensembles don’t represent the underlying physics then they are basically worthless. And if they *did* represent the underlying physics then their outputs should converge over time. The fact that they do *NOT* converge stands a mute proof that they do *NOT* represent the underlying physics.
Hindcasting models to match past data will of course create the false perception the models are accurate.
I’m not bad. I’m just drawn that way.
The forecast and hindcast periods are clearly set out in the models.
The forecast (projections) have proved skilful, though they’ll never admit that fact here.
“The forecast (projections) have proved skilful, though they’ll never admit that fact here.”
If the models were physically comprehensive they would be converging over time! The fact that they are not converging means they are *NOT* skillful at anything other than data matching past data.
Just so. And although somewhat old, the attached graph is still valid overall even today and makes your point about diverging atmospheric “models” abundantly clear.
Ooops . . . here’s the graph that I referred to.
Ho, hum . . . as has been advised innumerable times, correlation does not necessarily equate to causation. Ergo, there is no “validation” associated with correlations that are consistent with predictions.
Good grief!
Ok, I get that…. fair point!
However, what I’m trying to point out is that, while observations show warming alongside a rise in a trace gas, and a theory that has that gas being the cause of the warming, how do we know it’s not just a red herring, leading to the wrong conclusion?
The earth was once thought to be flat and that water courses were fed by vast underground lakes. Anyone who claimed otherwise was a heretic. With such a complex system as climate(s), which change over time anyway, how can anyone be convinced of any theory that claims to cause warming beyond what is natural climate change?
I understand that some of the computer models have predicted warming but can those same models produce accurate results of past climate? Surely that’s the acid test?
Science does not offer immutable truths, but models judged by explanatory power, predictive skill, and consistency with independent evidence. That is true for climate science as it is for plate tectonics or ocean circulation.
CO2 is not treated as causal merely because it correlates with warming. Its role follows from experimentally validated radiative transfer physics, which predicts specific, testable outcomes beyond surface temperature, such as stratospheric cooling, changes in outgoing longwave radiation spectra, and increasing ocean heat content. These fingerprints are observed, which sharply limits alternative explanations.
Climate models use the same physical equations to project future climate and to hindcast past climate. When run with natural forcings alone they fail to reproduce recent warming. When anthropogenic forcings are included they succeed within uncertainty. That does not make the theory immune to revision, but it leaves little room for fundamentally different causes.
No, Alan J,
That is only partially correct. It deals with the first part of an allegedly important process of heat generation involving CO2. You have to complete the story by adding what happens to that heat. You have a twofold choice – either it builds up or it gets carried away as other heat does. The main evidence supporting a buildup is a slight increase in global temperature, mainly from historic weather stations a metre or so above the ground, mixed with assorted ocean T measurements all combined and adjusted by eminently contestable subjective guesswork and a veneer of respectability created by activists more often than scientists. It is under 1deg C over the last 130 years or so, with an inexplicable jump up in year 2024 and has downs as well as ups. Possibly, pending realistic uncertainty estimation.
Missing from the story is why there are many suggestions from the longer past where temperatures of earthly materials seem not to correlate well, if at all, with estimated CO2 levels in the air. The story is not settled. Geoff S
The story is already complete in the physics. Radiative forcing from CO2 does not “generate” heat; it reduces the rate at which Earth loses energy to space. What happens to that excess energy is not assumed but observed: it accumulates primarily in the oceans, with smaller fractions warming the atmosphere, land, and melting ice. That is why ocean heat content, not surface air temperature alone, is the primary metric, and it shows a clear long-term increase.
The warming signal is not inferred from a single dataset or from surface stations alone. It appears consistently across independent measurements: satellites, radiosondes, ocean floats, glacier mass balance, sea level rise, and the vertical structure of atmospheric temperature. Short-term variability and individual years do not contradict the long-term energy imbalance.
Paleoclimate does not test whether CO2 “always” controls temperature, but whether its radiative effect operates as expected within a given climate state. Climate is shaped by multiple forcings whose importance varies with context, so coupling is not universal or scale-independent. Where CO2 is a dominant forcing or feedback, its predicted effects are observed; where other forcings dominate, weaker coupling is expected and not problematic for the theory.
This is just one prime example of the garbage assumptions in climate science.
Radiative loss to space goes up by T^4 while temperature only goes up by T. The earth loses heat at a HIGHER rate when the temperature goes up. If the temp goes from 100K to 102K the radiative heat loss goes from k100^4 to k102^4. That’s an INCREASE in heat loss compared to the increase in temperature.
Heat does *NOT* accumulate over the long term. It simply can *NOT* do so. The earth exists inside a practically infinite heat sink at 0K – space. Gradients change to force an equilibrium. E.g. more heat gets transported to the poles and the heat loss over the long term goes UP to drive Earth back to a balance.
There is also a horizontal component to atmospheric temperature. Why did you not include that?
What you are describing is a GRADIENT, not a stable average temperature. Gradients exist where there is heat being transported driving toward equilibrium. As temperature differences increase, the slope of the gradient increases to move more heat. One end of that gradient is ALWAYS space at a practical temperature of 0K when it comes to the Earth’s biosphere.
There is *NO* long term energy imbalance. If such a thing existed, Earth would be a molten rock today. The truth is that the long-term imbalance is with SPACE – and the gradient between the earth’s temperature and space ensures that COOLING over the long-term is going to happen.
There is no such thing as a “climate state”. There are only temperature gradient fields – always changing and always driving toward equilibrium.
It’s not even obvious that climate science recognizes that the earth is a more efficient radiator of heat than the sun is as a heater. Only a few points on Earth are orthogonal to the sun’s rays at any point in time. Yet EVERY SINGLE POINT on earth is orthogonal to space all the time. The earth radiates to space at 100% efficiency with no cosine loss due to angle of incidence while the sun only heats the earth at a 68% efficiency due to angle of incidence loss. The earth doesn’t *have* to radiate with the same intensity to space as the intensity received from the sun in order to lose all the heat supplied by the sun.
All you have done here is quote myths and unstated assumptions made by climate science – all to fool the rubes that have not even a basic understanding of thermodynamics. Based on what you’ve stated here its a miracle that every car on the road today doesn’t see its engine melt from “accumulation of heat” – be in liquid-cooled or air-cooled!
You’re conflating several basic concepts in thermodynamics and radiative physics in a way that leads to incorrect conclusions.
No one disputes that outgoing radiation increases with temperature according to Stefan-Boltzmann. Radiative forcing is not a claim that Earth stops losing heat, but that changing atmospheric opacity alters the temperature at which radiative equilibrium is achieved. A higher equilibrium temperature is entirely consistent with increased radiative loss at the top of the atmosphere. That is not a contradiction; it is the mechanism.
Energy accumulation in the climate system does not mean indefinite heat storage or runaway warming. It means a small, persistent imbalance between absorbed solar energy and emitted infrared radiation, which observations show is primarily taken up by the oceans. This imbalance is measured directly via satellite radiation budgets and ocean heat content, not inferred from surface temperatures alone.
Gradients, transport, and feedbacks are not alternatives to climate states; they are the processes that define them. A “climate state” simply refers to a statistically stable configuration of those gradients under a given set of boundary conditions. Denying the term does not negate the physics.
None of this implies violations of thermodynamics, nor does it require the Earth to retain heat indefinitely. It reflects how equilibrium shifts when radiative properties change, exactly as predicted by well-tested physics.
At this point, further progress would require engaging with the established literature rather than reasserting misconceptions about equilibrium, gradients, and radiation that have been addressed for decades. You’ve been reiterating these same misconceptions for as long as I’ve interacted with you, so I’m not sure what more I can do to dispel them.
As I told Tim, “Climate States” are a crutch to allow averages to define an unchanging system, i.e., static.
Nothing is static in this system. Why do you think climate science uses a flat earth and an average insolation to start it’s analysis? God forbid a calculus equation with di and dt would be derived to define the insolation as a dynamic function over time? Likewise let’s use a static radiative diagram to define how the “average” works.
A statistically stable climate simply does not exist on the earth. Your efforts to shoehorn the earth into a stable environment so you can attempt to assess it using algebraic calculations and statistical analysis of time series data means you are always behind the 8-ball in trying to project a climate state.
You are a babe in the woods compared to engineers who must design, build, and maintain constantly changing dynamic systems that use exponential gradient equations.
You are objecting to terminology, not physics.
In climate science, a “climate state” does not mean a static or unchanging system. It means a statistically steady regime in which the distributions of temperature, circulation, and energy fluxes are bounded and evolve around a mean under given boundary conditions. That framing is standard across dynamical systems, including engineering, fluid mechanics, and statistical physics.
Climate science does not assume a flat Earth, static insolation, or algebraic equilibrium. General circulation models explicitly solve time-dependent differential equations for radiative transfer, fluid flow, and thermodynamics on a rotating sphere with spatially and temporally varying forcing. Averages are diagnostic tools, not assumptions about stasis.
Dynamic systems are not rendered unanalyzable because they lack a fixed point. Engineers routinely analyze nonstationary systems using statistical stability, attractors, and response functions. Climate science does the same. Rejecting that framework does not make the system more “dynamic”; it just removes the ability to reason quantitatively about it.
If the claim is that a time-evolving system cannot be described statistically, then that objection applies equally to turbulence, weather prediction, ocean circulation, and most of modern engineering. In practice, those fields advance precisely because statistical stability is a meaningful and testable concept.
“statistically steady” is not the same as “static or unchanging”?
Did you actually read this before you hit post?
And you try to equate radiative transfer of heat with conduction of heat.
Again, as Planck plainly states: “Radiation of heat, however, is in itself entirely independent of the temperature of the medium through which it passes.”
All you and climate science have is “co2 acts like the insulation in your house walls”. Thermodynamic garbage.
No one is saying that at all! What is being said is that dynamic systems have to be analyzed using functional relationships with a time factor, not as a single point in time!
If you heat something up it will radiate more heat – and as the heat loss goes up its temperature goes back down! It doesn’t go up and stay there!
“If the claim is that a time-evolving system cannot be described statistically, then that objection applies equally to turbulence, weather prediction, ocean circulation, and most of modern engineering. “
Oh, more and more malarky! Why do you think that even today, weather predictions more than 24 hours ahead have significant uncertainty? Why do you think that new aircraft HAVE TO BE WIND TUNNEL TESTED in order to insure safety? Why do you think so many tests of new rockets FAIL? What do you think the purpose of engineering prototypes is?
I just love looking at tomorrow’s weather forecast saying there is a 50% chance of rain! Really? That also means that there is a 50% chance it WON’T rain! So how do you choose? Flip a coin? How many times does a 25% chance of rain tomorrow actually turn into RAIN?
You are as bad as bellman in assuming that the MEAN is *always* the outcome of a probability distribution!
You are objecting to statistical and dynamical methods that are standard in physics and engineering. “Statistically steady” does not mean static, probabilistic forecasts do not imply determinism, and equilibrium shifts do not violate thermodynamics. If those premises aren’t accepted, there’s no productive basis for further discussion.
If you are dealing in time series, which you are, the statistical parameters must remain stable. Changing parameters such as means and variance throughout a period can result spurious trends that are not real. That causes uncertainty to rocket higher.
You throw out terms and concepts wily nilly but always end up putting them in a positive light as if there are no negative possibilities because you know what you are doing. That’s a sure sign of self-confidence being self- reinforced. You have obviously never encountered a situation that induces serious consequences like being fired.
Tell us how many modelers in climate science must buy liability insurance to cover instances when they have incorrect results. It makes one much less confident in pronouncing results.
You’re mixing up two different concepts: stationarity of a time series and statistical stability of a physical system.
Climate science does not assume that means or variances are constant over time. In fact, detecting changes in those parameters is precisely the point of the analysis. Non-stationarity does not automatically produce “spurious trends” when it arises from an external forcing; it becomes a problem only when the cause of non-stationarity is unknown or unaccounted for. In climate, the forcings are explicitly modeled and independently observed.
“Statistically steady” refers to bounded behavior under fixed boundary conditions, not to frozen statistics in an evolving system. When boundary conditions change, such as greenhouse gas concentrations or solar forcing, the statistical properties of the system are expected to change as well. That is not a flaw; it is the signal being studied.
Of course they assume stationarity or you would be telling us how it is treated when determining inputs.
Your protestation that model are accurate is tiresome.
Read this.
https://science.gsfc.nasa.gov/600/public-nuggets/ClimateSimulations-nugget20220606.pdf
Even NASA acknowledges the problem. Perhaps it would do you good to tell why they run warm.
All AlanJ is doing is taking the criticisms of the non-physicality of climate science and saying: “Climate science *does* consider all these factors”.
Etc, etc, etc, …..
Climate science is dominated by statisticians that attempt to “prove” that statistically derived trends can predict future temperatures.
Measurements are only a technique to obtain values that can be trended statistically.
When did any of the warmists here attempt to address the physical connections between variables such as insolation, temperature, water vapor, etc.
The earth is a physical entity. The processes on the earth are physical processes. They are connected physically. At least bdgwx has tried to develop a “model” that uses physical variables to predict things rather than using just statistical trends. When was the last paper or IPCC report you read that discussed physical connections?
Alanj doesn’t even understand trigonometry application to the absorption of insolation. How many of these folks have actually learned vector calculus so the can determine the 3-dimensional movements of varying effects? It is all statistics, all the time.
That NASA summary does not say climate models are invalid or that climate science assumes stationarity. It says exactly what working climate scientists have been saying publicly for years.
CMIP6 deliberately expanded the range of model behavior by incorporating more detailed treatments of clouds, ice, and water. Some of those new representations increased climate sensitivity too much.
About a quarter of the models therefore project more warming than is consistent with observational constraints. That is not a surprise or a failure; it is the expected outcome of exploring structural uncertainty.
The important point is what happened next. The IPCC did not take a simple average of all CMIP6 models and call it a forecast. They reconciled model output with independent observational constraints, including historical warming, ocean heat uptake, and sea level rise, and explicitly down-weighted or excluded the “hot” models. NASA is describing that process, not criticizing it.
Nothing in that document suggests that climate scientists assume stationary means or variances, or that models are trusted blindly. Quite the opposite: it explicitly acknowledges uncertainty, identifies where some models are inconsistent with observations, and explains how those models are handled.
Most importantly, none of this affects the underlying physics. The greenhouse effect, radiative forcing, and energy balance are not validated by CMIP6 averages. They are validated by laboratory measurements, satellite observations, and multiple independent datasets that predate CMIP6 entirely. Model spread reflects uncertainty in feedback strength, not uncertainty about whether greenhouse gases warm the climate.
I’m not conflating ANYTHING. I gave you the math. Heat loss goes UP by T^4 while T only goes up linearly. Refute that if you can. It means your assertion that CO2 means less heat loss is just garbage. No amount of word salad from you can fix that.
More word salad! What does up is the slope of the gradient – and as the heat loss drives toward equilibrium, i.e. lowering the temperature at start of the gradient, the slope of the gradient decreases again
I didn’t say that radiative forcing *stops* the Earth from losing heat. That’s just a strawman you’ve made up to argue with. What I *said* was that the slope of the gradient goes up which results in a larger heat loss per unit time per S-B. Your assertion is that the gradient goes *DOWN* resulting in less heat loss to space. It’s a garbage meme not based in reality.
Another bit of evidence that you have no idea what you are talking about. I don’t know who is feeding you this garbage but it is WRONG.
THERE IS NO EQUILIBRIUM temperature that goes higher. A higher temperature means MORE heat loss which, in turn, means LOWER TEMPERATURE! There is an ever changing gradient between the earth and space. There is no “equilibrium” at a higher temperature.
The only way the equilibrium temperature can go higher is if there is more heat put into the system – but there is *NO* additional source of heat. There is only the sun. And there is only space sucking away that heat intercepted by the earth.
More garbage! Any imbalance between absorbed solar energy and emitted infrared radiation will be corrected by a higher T^4 radiation from the increased temperature- i.e. heat loss goes UP until the temperature of the earth retreats to where the heat radiated by the earth equals the heat input from the sun!
Your assertion REQUIRES indefinite additional heat storage – that’s the only thing that can result in a permanent rise in the temperature of the earth. It’s either that or an unknown additional heat source, that is invisible to the rest of physical science, is somehow injecting additional heat into the system.
“Gradients, transport, and feedbacks are not alternatives to climate states; they are the processes that define them.”
Malarky! You cannot define a “state” in a time dependent, continually changing system. You can only define how that time dependent, continually changing system changes. A sine wave has no “state”. You can measure its value at a particular point in time but that doesn’t define its “state”. Its state is defined by its period and amplitude, both time functions that are continually changing.
When the temperature of the earth goes up its radiation goes up as well, by T^4. As that radiation results in the loss of energy its temperature goes down. You can’t describe a “state” for that, all you can do is lay out a functional relationship for the ever changing gradients.
There is no “statistically stable configuration of those gradients”. The very term gradient, at least in thermodynamics, denotes *change*!
The only stable configuration for the earth is when the heat input from the sun equals the output to space. You can’t change this by rearranging internal components of the heat engine known as the earth. Any increase in the temperature of the earth will increase the slope of the gradient to space. That increased slope will drive the system back to equilibrium where input = output.
It is also revealing that you and the rest of climate science try to explain their idiocy concerning temperature going up by using the concept of CONDUCTION of heat instead of the concept of radiation of heat. Insulation affects CONDUCTION, it doesn’t affect radiation. If you take a light bulb with an element radiating at a specific temperature, you can wrap all the “insulation” around that light bulb you want and it won’t change the temperature of the radiating element or the amount of light it generates. The temperature of that radiating element will remain based solely on the electrical energy input into the element, it isn’t based on the CONDUCTION of heat.
Planck states in just his second paragraph: “Radiation of heat, however, is in itself entirely independent of the temperature of the medium through which it passes. It is possible, for example, to concentrate the solar rays at a focus by passing them through a converging lens of ice, the latter remaining at a constant temperature of 0◦ , and so to ignite an inflammable body. Generally speaking, radiation is a far more complicated phenomenon than conduction of heat. The reason for this is that the state of the radiation at a given instant and at a given point of the medium cannot be represented, as can the flow of heat by conduction, by a single vector (that is, a single directed quantity).” (bolding mine, tpg)
In essence, you are claiming that Planck has it all wrong. You are going to have to come up with some pretty involved math to prove that claim.
Bullshite. You’ve got the math of T^4. You’ve got the quote from Planck that the radiation of heat is independent of the temperature of the medium through which it passes.
You have offered *NOTHING* to refute these facts. All you have is equating heat radiation with heat conduction.
Get a better argument. So far all you’ve offered is garbage.
There are three basic equations that need to be investigated for radiative heat loss by the thermodynamic system known as the Earth.
I_e is the radiation intensity from the surface of the earth. I_s is the radiation intensity from the sun. 0.68 is the average absorption of the sun’s insolation due to the angle of incidence. “I” equals emissivity times S-B constant times T^4. T^4 is a time-based functional relationship. When integrated over dt the actual heat loss becomes a T^5 function. The actual heat loss goes up by the 5th power as temperature goes up linearly.
A. ∫ I_e dA dt = ∫ 0.68 * I_s dA dt
B. ∫ I_e dA dt ≤ ∫ 0.68 * I_s dA dt
C. ∫ I_e dA dt ≥ ∫ 0.68 * I_s dA dt
“A” represents the equilibrium point of a two-body system consisting of the sun and the earth. Since every point on the Earth radiates orthogonally to space all the time there is no cosine factor involved. Since the earth radiates to space 24 hours per day, the total heat loss period for I_e is 24 hours and that becomes the integral interval for dt. Since the sun only shines on a point on the surface of the earth about 12 hours per day, the dt interval for I_s is only 12 hours.
“B” represents a situation where the radiation intensity of the earth when integrated over time and area is less than the radiation intensity being received over time and area. That causes an increase in the amount of heat retained by the earth which, in turn, causes an increase in the temperature of the earth. This increase in temperature thus increases the radiation intensity from the surface of the earth which acts as a negative feedback causing higher heat loss (by a factor of T^5) which drives the temperature back down to equilibrium. AlanJ would like his cake and to eat it also by saying that heat retained goes up but isn’t permanent but still causes the average temperature to go up. The piece missing is that it also drives the average heat loss up which, again, is a negative feedback driving temperature back down.
“C” represents a situation where the radiation intensity of the earth when integrated over time and area is more than the radiation intensity being received from the sun when integrated over time and area. This represents the action of a three-body system consisting of the earth, the sun, and space with a net heat loss to space and thus the temperature of the surface of the earth goes down. If the input from the sun is considered to be a constant over time and area then it has no way to “force” the temperature of the earth to a higher value, there is no way to push back to equilibrium. The temperature of the earth will drop to a point where the heat loss gradient equals the heat gain gradient from the sun.
Bottom line? You simply can’t equate the radiation intensity out from the earth at the top of the atmosphere with the radiation intensity in from the sun at the top of the atmosphere. The time intervals involved for the heat loss and heat gain are different and thus a lower radiation intensity out can lose as much heat as a higher radiation intensity in can generate.
Using “average” radiation intensity in and out doesn’t fix this. First, the heat loss temperature curve is not linear, it is a T^5 function. The average heat loss is *NOT* at the midpoint temperature. Second, the heat input at the top of the atmosphere is *not* the amount of heat absorbed because of the angle of incidence over the spherical earth. The average TOA sun insolation does not represent the total heat absorbed by the earth and averaging doesn’t fix this.
Summary:
You correctly state a few individual points, but your overall conclusions do not follow.
First, no one in climate science equates surface radiation intensity directly with incoming solar radiation intensity. The energy balance is evaluated at the top of the atmosphere, not at the surface, precisely to avoid the geometric and temporal complications you describe. The cosine factor, day-night cycle, and spherical geometry are already accounted for in the definition of absorbed solar radiation as S/4 * (1 – α). That is not an averaging shortcut; it is the exact integral over area and time for a rotating sphere.
Second, Stefan-Boltzmann already gives the total emitted power integrated over time. Introducing a T^5 dependence by integrating T^4 over time assumes temperature is an independent linear function of time during the integration, which is not how radiative equilibrium is formulated. In equilibrium problems, temperature is the variable being solved for, not integrated over an arbitrary time path. Climate theory does not claim heat loss is linear in temperature, nor does it ignore the strong negative feedback from increasing emission with temperature.
Third, the existence of a strong negative radiative feedback does not prevent a higher equilibrium temperature. It defines it. When atmospheric opacity increases, the effective altitude from which Earth radiates to space rises to colder layers. To restore balance with the same absorbed solar energy, the entire temperature profile must shift warmer until outgoing radiation again matches incoming radiation at the top of the atmosphere. That is fully consistent with Stefan-Boltzmann and does not require heat to “accumulate indefinitely.”
Fourth, Planck’s statement that radiation depends only on the emitter’s temperature is correct but irrelevant to the conclusion you draw. The greenhouse effect does not claim the atmosphere alters the surface’s emissivity or emission law. It alters where photons escape to space, not whether the surface emits them. The surface and atmosphere are radiatively and convectively coupled, so changing atmospheric absorption necessarily changes the temperature required for balance.
Finally, none of this relies on averages replacing dynamics. The averages describe the constraint imposed by conservation of energy. The dynamics describe how the system moves toward the constrained state. Both are required, and neither contradicts the other.
In short, the mathematics of radiation loss are not in dispute. The error is treating equilibrium as something defined by surface emission alone, rather than by the coupled surface-atmosphere system evaluated at the top of the atmosphere. Once that distinction is made, the apparent contradictions disappear.
It IS an averaging shortcut. The amount of absorption IS based on the cosine of the angle from the normal. If the formula does not use the cosine function, then it is not real.
Using “S/4” IS an average value. It is the value that every square meter of the earth is expected to receive and absorb.
The poles receive and absorb single digit values of insolation while points where insolation is at 90° receive and absorb the full amount of insolation. It is the reason the poles are cold and the Tropics are hot. Your S/4(1-α) will not show this variation therefore actual radiation will be incorrect
Using an average betrays the SB equation having an exponential factor, T⁴.
You state “That is not an averaging shortcut; it is the exact integral“. You have believed something you have been told. You have not verified it yourself. That assumes a flat projection and a non-rotating earth. Show us the integral that is derived from.
The cosine factor is not ignored or replaced by an average. It is fully accounted for before the result is expressed as a global mean.
Locally, the incoming solar energy depends on the angle of the surface relative to the Sun. Where the Sun is overhead, the energy is concentrated. As the surface tilts away, the same sunlight is spread over a larger area and the absorbed energy decreases accordingly. On the night side, it is zero.
If you add up the absorbed energy from every sunlit patch of Earth, weighting each patch by its angle and surface area, the total absorbed energy equals the solar flux multiplied by Earth’s cross-sectional area. That result comes directly from geometry and conservation of energy and does not assume a flat or non-rotating Earth.
To express that total absorbed energy as a single global constraint, you divide by Earth’s total surface area. This yields one quarter of the solar flux, adjusted for reflectivity. That value is not a shortcut or approximation. It is the exact result of accounting for Earth’s spherical geometry, rotation, day–night cycle, and angle of incidence.
Crucially, this global mean is not what general circulation models use to calculate climate. GCMs resolve Earth’s geometry explicitly. They compute incoming solar radiation separately for each grid cell, at each time step, accounting for latitude, longitude, season, time of day, orbital parameters, and rotation. The cosine dependence is handled locally, not averaged away.
The global mean exists to express the planet-wide energy constraint and to provide physical intuition. The actual dynamics and spatial variations are handled by the full, time-dependent equations in the models.
Locally, the incoming solar energy depends on the angle of the surface relative to the Sun. Where the Sun is overhead, the energy is concentrated. As the surface tilts away, the same sunlight is spread over a larger area and the absorbed energy decreases accordingly. On the night side, it is zero.
What hokum misinformation. Quit googling for learning, especially Wikipedia and reading CAGW sites.
Your information relies on the misperception that the sun’s insolation can be treated as a point source. Therefore the “rays” are still diverging as they hit the earth.
Sorry to tell you that at the distance the earth is from the sun and the very small solid angle the EM wave is considered a plane wave. That means it is basically flat and every point on the wave has the same value and same direction.
Here is a screenshot of a downloadable text book. You should study it.
Here is an image showing a plane wave.
If you can’t even get the basics of insolation correct, the rest of your assertions are meaningless!
You’re right that at Earth’s distance, sunlight is well-approximated as a plane wave with nearly parallel rays. But that does not eliminate the cosine factor. It is exactly the reason the cosine factor is the correct geometry.
The cosine dependence is not about rays “diverging from a point source.” It is about projection. A patch of ground tilted relative to the incoming beam intercepts the same beam through a smaller “shadow” area, so the same incoming power is spread over a larger surface area. That is why the absorbed flux per unit surface area scales with the cosine of the incidence angle, even for a perfectly plane wave.
The textbook screenshot you linked is saying exactly that: it computes absorbed flux using the solar irradiance multiplied by the sine or cosine of the solar elevation or zenith angle. That is the same projection effect I described in words.
And that is also why the global result follows. When you add up the cosine-weighted sunlight over the sunlit half of a sphere, you get a total equal to the solar irradiance times Earth’s cross-sectional disk area. Dividing by Earth’s full surface area gives the “one quarter” factor. That is basic geometry for a sphere illuminated by parallel rays.
So the plane-wave approximation does not undermine the cosine factor or the S over four result. It is the assumption under which they are derived.
Really? What is the 1360 value that is used for comparison with outgoing radiation?
From ceres.larc.nasa.gov: “Despite recent improvements in satellite instrument calibration and the algorithms used to determine CERES SW and LW outgoing TOA radiative fluxes, a sizeable imbalance still persists in the average global net radiation at the TOA (or Earth energy imbalance; EEI). For example, using the most recent CERES Edition 3 Instrument calibration improvements, the SYN1deg_Edition3 net TOA flux imbalance is3.4 W m2 , much larger than the expected mean range of0.5–1.0 W m2 (von Schuckmann et al., 2016). Constraining the absolute value of EEI from satellite measurements is extremely challenging. EEI is a small residual of incoming and outgoing TOA fluxes that are two orders-of-magnitude larger. Achieving a 50% uncertainty in EEI would require the total outgoing radiation (SW plus LW TOA fluxes) to be known to 0.2 W m2 or 0.06%, roughly an order-of-magnitude more accurate than present-day ERB sensors. The bias in EEI from CERES is problematic in applications that use ERB data for climate model evaluation, estimations of the Earth’s annual global mean energy budget, and studies that infer meridional heat transports. Another limitation that is problematic for studies requiring clear-sky TOA fluxes is the presence of data gaps in monthly mean clear-sky TOA flux maps owing to a lack of cloud-free CERES footprints within 1 1 regions as identified by imager data” (bolding mine, tpg)
What in Pete’s name do you think the words “global net radiation at the TOA” mean?
Where do you think the outgoing radiation at the TOA comes from? A magic portal into another dimension?
It isn’t the radiative flux balance that is important, it is the heat loss generated by those fluxes that *matters*.
This article doesn’t even seem to understand that the outgoing flux doesn’t *have* to equal the incoming flux in order for the net heat loss over the diurnal cycle to be equal! You don’t seem to grasp that simple concept either!
You just continue to show the idiocy of climate science. Temperature is not *heat*. It is the HEAT balance that is important. Temperature is just the average kinetic energy of a set of molecules. Heat is the transport of energy from one place to another. They are *NOT* the same and neither you or climate science seem to be able to understand that simple fact.
Heat is measured in joules, a measure of energy. It is an EXTENSIVE property. Temperature is measured in degrees. It is an INTENSIVE property. A cup of water at 100F has the same temperature as a bathtub of water at 100F but there is FAR MORE energy in the bathtub than in the cup! You simply cannot measure energy by measuring temperature!
Radiative flux is a carrier for energy. It is joules per sec-meter^2. You *have* to integrate the flux over the area receiving the flux and over the amount of time the flux illuminates that area IN ORDER TO FIND THE HEAT that has been transported! joules/sec-m^2 multiplied by m^2 gives you the total joules per second being transported. Multiply joules per second by the interval of time the transport occurs gives you the total joules that have been transported!
Temperature does *NOT* include mass, length, time, or energy in its dimension. It is an independent base SI dimension all by itself.
Again, one more time, it is the HEAT BALANCE that is important. It is the amount of heat injected into the Earth’s biosphere that is important and which must be accounted for using thermodynamics.
The outgoing radiative flux from the earth’s surface CAN BE SMALLER than the incoming radiative flux to the earth’s surface AND STILL BALANCE THE HEAT EQUATION because the outgoing radiative flux exists during the entire diurnal cycle while the incoming radiative flux only lasts for part of the diurnal cycle.
A car travelling at 1 mile per minute for one minute covers one mile. A car travelling at 0.5 mile per minute for two minutes covers one mile. The distances balance. Heat transport is EXACTLY the same. An incoming radiative flux of 1 joule/sec-m^2 that lasts for 10 seconds while illuminating 1 m^2 transports 10 joules of heat. An outgoing radiative flux of 0.5 joules/sec-m^2 that lasts for 20 seconds also transports 10 joules of heat. The two fluxes do *NOT* have to be equal to transport the same amount of heat.
You are correctly distinguishing between temperature and heat, and no one in climate science disputes that distinction. Energy balance is about joules, not degrees. Where you are going wrong is in claiming that climate science confuses those concepts or evaluates them at the wrong level.
First, the “1360 W/m^2” value is not compared directly to outgoing longwave radiation. It is the solar flux normal to the Sun at Earth’s orbit. Before any comparison is made, that flux is geometrically distributed over a rotating sphere and reduced by reflection. That is why absorbed solar energy is evaluated as a global integral at the top of the atmosphere, not as a pointwise surface comparison. No one equates surface emission with raw incoming solar flux.
Second, when climate science evaluates energy balance at the top of the atmosphere, it is not claiming radiation “comes from nowhere.” It is identifying the boundary across which energy leaves the Earth system. All surface and atmospheric processes ultimately manifest as radiation escaping to space. That is why TOA is the correct accounting surface for conservation of energy. It is not a shortcut; it is a control volume.
Third, your repeated emphasis on time integration does not contradict climate theory. The Stefan-Boltzmann relationship already describes power, which is energy per unit time. Equilibrium is defined by the condition that, when integrated over area and time, the total energy entering the Earth system equals the total energy leaving it. Climate science does not require instantaneous fluxes to be equal at every moment or location. It requires equality of the integrated energy flows. That is exactly what is being evaluated.
Fourth, the claim that outgoing flux can be lower than incoming flux and still balance over a diurnal cycle is already accounted for in the global integral. Day-night asymmetry, rotation, geometry, and duration are not ignored. They are the reason the global balance is computed as an area- and time-integrated quantity rather than a local comparison. The fact that fluxes differ locally or temporally is not a flaw; it is the reason averaging is physically meaningful.
Finally, none of this implies that temperature is being used as a proxy for energy without regard to mass or time. Temperature is used because, through well-established physical laws, it determines radiative emission. Changes in temperature are diagnostic of changes in energy content, which is why ocean heat content, not surface temperature alone, is the primary measure of energy accumulation.
In short, you are arguing against a caricature. Climate science does not confuse heat with temperature, does not equate raw solar flux with surface emission, and does not ignore time integration. It evaluates the energy balance of a coupled system using conservation laws applied at the correct boundary. Once that is recognized, the apparent contradictions you are raising disappear.
Word salad you’ve derived from the objections made to your original assertions. You”ve made NO mention of time in anything you’ve asserted. E.g.: “hey compute incoming solar radiation separately for each grid cell, at each time step, accounting for latitude, longitude, season, time of day, orbital parameters, and rotation. The cosine dependence is handled locally, not averaged away.”
Not a single word about emission *from* the surface being integrated over the diurnal cycle!
Just more word salad! Exactly what difference does it make *where* the accounting is done? The radiation has to be integrated over the entire boundary used. Radiation is considered using *solid* angles, i.e. sterradians, that accounts from the spread of the radiation as it travels. If climate science handled this properly IT WOULDN’T MATTER where you define the boundary to be. The same total energy would be transported across the boundary whether it is at a distance defined as a zero point or 1km lower than the zero point or 1km higher than the zero point!
All you’ve done here is to try and justify the climate science garbage that heat gets *TRAPPED* by CO2 – i.e. it is permanently retained heat energy. So you have to define the measurement boundary to be outside of that volume in which the heat is “TRAPPED”.
As I said, that is GARBAGE! If totally violates Planck’s description of how reflected heat is handled using compensation. That reflected heat energy does *NOT* get trapped, it just gets sent back out again!
If the sun stopped shining tomorrow climate *science* would say that the permanently trapped heat from CO2 would keep the earth warm!
And yet you have *NEVER* asserted that climate science integrates the flux over time in order to find the total energy that has been transported. All you ever mention is adding up the flux over an entire whole surface to find an “average” flux. That still leaves you with joules/sec and not joules! It’s why you and climate science always talk about an imbalance in the FLUX and not in the energy in/out! There is no way to determine the actual energy balance from just knowing the W/m^2!
Then why do you and climate science INSIST on continuing to talk about an imbalance in the FLUX instead of an imbalance in the energy flows? If you actually integrated over area and time then you wouldn’t even have joules/sec-m^2, you would have JOULES all by itself.
Come on, be honest, WHAT IS THE TOTAL ENERGY IMBALANCE AT THE TOA OVER THE DIURNAL CYCLE IN JOULES?????? Do you know?
Temperature determines the FLUX INTENSITY of the radiative emission. It does *NOT* determine total energy transport! You can’t even get this one correct.
All you have done in your reply is to take all the criticisms that have been put forth and said: “Well climate science considers all of these factors”. And then returned to talking about flux intensity instead of total energy transport.
You’re still conflating how quantities are reported with how they are calculated, and then treating that as a conceptual error.
Climate science does integrate radiative flux over area and time. That is exactly what energy balance means. The reason results are commonly expressed in watts per square meter is because power per unit area is the natural intensive quantity for comparing states of a system.
Multiplying by Earth’s surface area and integrating over time to obtain joules is trivial and adds no new physical information. It is a change of units, not a change of physics.
Talking about a flux imbalance does not mean energy is not being integrated. It means the imbalance is normalized so it can be compared across datasets, time periods, and models. A persistent positive flux imbalance implies increasing total energy content; that is why ocean heat content rises. If the imbalance were zero when integrated over time, no accumulation would be observed. But it is observed.
The location of the accounting boundary absolutely matters, not because energy is “trapped,” but because conservation laws are applied to a defined control volume. At the top of the atmosphere, all forms of energy exchange with space reduce to radiation, which makes it the correct boundary for closing the energy budget. Defining the boundary elsewhere introduces internal exchanges that obscure, rather than clarify, conservation.
No one claims heat is permanently trapped by CO2. The claim is that increased atmospheric opacity reduces the rate of energy loss for a given temperature. Energy continues to escape to space, and equilibrium is restored when temperature rises enough that outgoing radiation again balances incoming radiation. If the Sun stopped shining, Earth would cool regardless of CO2. Nothing in climate science says otherwise.
Finally, temperature is not being used as a substitute for total energy. It is used because radiative emission depends on it. Total energy transport is accounted for through fluxes integrated over space and time. Saying “flux” rather than repeatedly stating “joules integrated over the diurnal cycle” is standard practice in physics, not an evasion.
The disagreement here is not that climate science ignores time, area, or energy. It is that you are insisting those quantities must be discussed in a single preferred form, when in fact they are already fully accounted for within the framework being used.
In other words, how many joules are radiated over 24 hours (86400 sec) from each square meter on the earth versus how many joules are absorbed in 43200 seconds over each square meter on the earth. That assumes a 12/12 hour split.
Look at this entry from the textbook above.

Look at Eq. 2.21. It’s not a simple function. And that is just for one latitude, one point and one day (angle of sunrise to sunset). Integrate that for ∆θ, Δh_0, ∆t. That doesn’t include ∆albedo over the globe.
One more proof that you have absolutely *NO* idea of what you are talking about. Temperature is *NOT* energy content. Therefore it can’t be a diagnostic for energy content change. Once again, a cup of water and a bathtub of water can have the SAME TEMPERATURE. Yet the energy content is vastly different.
The proper metric for heat is enthalpy, not temperature. Even enthalpy is a complicated subject. For a solid the enthalpy is the internal energy plus a pressure/volume factor. How do you measure the internal energy of a solid, including a liquid?
Even finding a ΔH is complicated for a non-homogeneous material, which even the ocean is, because the specific heat factor is temperature dependent and different for each component material. And the total enthalpy is a weighted sum of all the specific heats. This is on top of the pressure and volume relationship!
All climate science does is, once again, make one more unstated assumption – “temperature equals enthalpy”.
It’s just more unphysical science from climate science.
You are again objecting to a position climate science does not take.
No one claims temperature equals energy content. Temperature is diagnostic of energy content when mass and heat capacity are known, which is exactly the case for the ocean. Ocean heat content is calculated by integrating measured temperature changes over depth, area, density, and specific heat. That is a direct calculation of energy change, not an assumption that temperature equals enthalpy.
Your cup-versus-bathtub analogy actually illustrates the point. If you know the mass of water and its heat capacity, temperature change tells you the change in energy. That is basic thermodynamics, not a shortcut. The same principle applies to the ocean, using in-situ measurements (e.g., Argo floats) and well-characterized seawater properties.
Climate science does not ignore enthalpy, pressure, or variable heat capacity. Those factors are explicitly included in ocean heat content calculations, and pressure-volume work is negligible compared to internal energy changes for seawater under Earth conditions.
So the claim that climate science assumes “temperature equals enthalpy” is simply false. Temperature is the observable used to compute energy change when the physical properties of the system are known.
To go even deeper into the subject this is indicative of the issue with climate science focusing on temperature (an intensive value of a system as opposed to its enthalpy (an extensive value of a system). Heat is the transfer of energy from one system to another. The energy that is transported is lost to one system thus its enthalpy goes down and is gained by the other system thus its enthalpy goes up. It is the enthalpy of each system that is a measure of the energy in each system.
If you want to talk about a STATE VARIABLE, you should be talking about enthalpy, not temperature!
If climate science models are focused on temperature as the value being solved for then it *is* ignoring the strong negative feedback from the EXPONENTIALLY increasing emission with temperature. A 0.4% change in temperature results in an almost 0.8% increase in heat loss!
You simply cannot ignore the geometric and temporal complications – THEY ARE WHAT DETERMINES THE ACTUAL HEAT LOSS. It’s why the Earth doesn’t have to radiate at the same level as the incoming insolation from the sun in order to lose all the heat being input to the system by the sun!
That is *NOT* how negative feedback works in a passive system with no independent secondary source of power. In a passive system you *take* power from the output to feed back to the input, thus the output power goes down. With no secondary power source to feed a gain element, that stolen power just gets passed through back to the output bringing it back to the original level. You can never move away from the equilibrium point!
As usual, climate science ASSumes that there is an independent secondary power source that somehow amplifies the feedback signal thus generating a new equilbrium point. But it never defines what that independent secondary power source is. It never even admits that it is making that assumption!
And yet it is the SURFACE temperature that climate science claims is being affected by climate change! And it is the total heat loss to space that is important. If it doesn’t matter from where the photons originate then it only matters how many escape.
You keep trying to say you and climate science don’t assume that retained heat stays retained forever but that is *exactly* what is required to ignore the fact that it is HOW MANY photons, or more exactly how many joules, escape the system that defines the heat loss. You are once again trapped in a Catch-22 of your own making!
You’re mixing correct thermodynamic definitions with incorrect conclusions about how they apply in climate physics.
Climate science does not use temperature as a proxy for energy. Energy is tracked explicitly where it matters, which is why ocean heat content is the primary measure of accumulation. Temperature is used because radiative emission depends on it, not because it is confused with heat.
Solving for temperature does not ignore the strong temperature dependence of radiation. That dependence is the restoring mechanism that defines equilibrium. A higher equilibrium temperature is fully consistent with stronger radiative loss at higher temperature; it simply means the balance point has shifted because radiative properties changed.
Negative feedback does not require a system to return to its original equilibrium. In passive systems, changing a parameter shifts the equilibrium point even with strong negative feedback. No secondary power source is required; the external energy input already exists.
Evaluating energy balance at the top of the atmosphere does not ignore geometry or time. It is how conservation of energy is applied to the Earth system as a whole.
The greenhouse effect does not change how the surface emits radiation. It changes how efficiently radiation escapes to space. Because the surface and atmosphere are coupled, the temperature required for balance changes accordingly.
No one is claiming energy is retained forever. A small imbalance persists until outgoing radiation again matches incoming radiation, at a higher temperature. The contradictions you’re describing arise from misapplying control-system intuition to a radiative equilibrium problem.
You again ignore enthalpy. Beginners learn about radiation using black bodies. They are congruent in all aspects. Under those conditions, temperature can be used as a proxy for heat. This is not the earth.
The earth has many bodies. The solid surface, liquid surface, CO2, water vapor, N2, O2, etc. Each of those have different specific heat values. Two of those bodies store energy as latent heat, i.e.., unmeasurable in terms of temperature. The only way to describe all those different substances in common terms is to use enthalpy.
The equation for heat transfer is:
Q=mc(T2-T1)
Do you think heat absorption between bodies with different masses and specific heat values are all similar?
The fact that water vapor contains latent heat disproves this assertion. How much heat can water vapor store without changing temperature? Can water vapor emit radiation out of nowhere in reference to temperature?
You’re still arguing against a position climate science does not take.
No one treats temperature as a proxy for total energy across heterogeneous systems. Enthalpy and internal energy are handled explicitly where they matter, which is exactly why ocean heat content and latent heat storage are included in the energy budget. Temperature is used because radiative emission depends on temperature, not because it is assumed to represent all stored energy.
Latent heat does not “disprove” the argument. It is part of the energy balance, and it is accounted for through phase-change energetics and moisture transport. Water vapor does not radiate “out of nowhere”; its emission is governed by its temperature and molecular energy states, just like any other emitter. Latent heat affects how energy is partitioned, not whether radiative balance applies.
Radiative equilibrium is defined by the condition that total energy in equals total energy out when integrated over space and time. How that energy is temporarily stored, as sensible heat, latent heat, or internal energy, affects the transient response, not the existence or location of equilibrium. Solving for temperature does not ignore enthalpy; it identifies the temperature at which the coupled system can satisfy energy conservation given its radiative properties.
So yes, different materials store energy differently. That is precisely why the climate system responds slowly and unevenly. But none of that negates radiative balance or the role of temperature in determining emission.
If there is a change in a state variable, then a gradient must be defined to show the change versus time. Guess how you find the total change?
Climate science wants to assume “state” variables can be calculated. Why? Averages can be used to define the state variables.
Some day, these folks may understand that the earth and it’s atmosphere is a dynamic system that requires calculus based gradients to approach understanding.
Thanks for your detailed explanation. I’m aware of the points that you make. I’m very interested though in your view that there’s “little room for fundamentally different causes”. I think there’s a lot of debate about this, although not in the mainstream. Nevertheless, there are some highly qualified atmospheric scientists, who disagree with this conclusion. My understanding is also that computer models don’t perform particularly well in hindcasting, when using the same “physical equations” and data that are used to predict future climate?
“I’m very interested though in your view that there’s “little room for fundamentally different causes”. “
If what AlanJ is offering was true then all of the models included in the “ensemble” of models would be converging with their projections. The fact that they have diverged over time is a prime indicator that the physics involved in the models are 1. not completely understood, 2. not complete (unknown unknown’s), and 3. are not experimentally validated as a functional whole. The fact that so many things have to be parameterized means that they can *NOT* be validated experimentally!
Climate models are not the foundation of the theory; they are one way of expressing it numerically. The greenhouse effect, radiative transfer, and energy balance are established independently of any particular model, and their validation does not depend on models converging to a single trajectory.
Differences among models reflect structural choices and resolution limits in representing complex processes, not disagreement about core physics. Ensembles are used to explore those structural uncertainties, not to manufacture certainty. The theory itself is constrained primarily by observations and physical consistency, with models serving as tools for synthesis rather than arbiters of truth.
Why don’t you just say the models are wrong, we know they are wrong, but we have to have something to base financial ruin upon.
That framing is false. Saying models are imperfect is not the same as saying they are wrong. All models in physics are approximations. What matters is whether they capture the dominant mechanisms and reproduce observed responses to known forcings within uncertainty.
Climate models are judged against observations, energy balance constraints, and physical consistency, not treated as sources of truth in themselves. The underlying conclusions about greenhouse forcing do not depend on any single model, or even on models at all, but on experimentally validated physics and multiple independent observations.
Attributing scientific conclusions to financial or political motives is not an argument about the science. If you think the physics or observations are wrong, that is the level at which the disagreement needs to occur.
The framing is not false. There is only one model that runs close to observations, the Russian one. All others run hot. They are therefore not only wrong, but not verifiable.
If they are not treated as sources of truth, then their outputs can not be trusted.
You keep trying to justify the AGW theory by using model outputs. I’ll say it again.
You are again conflating models with theory, and forecast error with falsification.
Climate theory is not justified by model output. It is justified by experimentally validated radiative physics and multiple independent observations, including measured changes in Earth’s radiation budget, vertical temperature structure, ocean heat uptake, and responses to known forcings. Those exist whether a single model runs warm, cool, or perfectly.
Models are not “sources of truth” in the Feynman sense, nor are they treated as such. They are numerical tools used to test whether known physics, when applied to the climate system, produces behavior consistent with observations. Trust is placed in the physics and observations, not in any individual model trajectory.
The fact that models span a range does not make them unverifiable. It reflects uncertainty in feedback strength and internal variability, which is why ensembles are used. Evaluation is done against observed responses and energy constraints, not by picking a single model that happens to track one realization of short-term variability.
Feynman’s point cuts the opposite way of how you are using it. The greenhouse effect and its consequences agree with experiment and observation across many independent lines of evidence. If they did not, the theory would already be discarded. No quotation changes that.
Not one word about obtaining the information needed to validate the models. You can keep pointing over there or pointing somewhere else and saying “Look!” but it won’t change anything. As Tim has pointed out to you, if 50 years of modeling was being successful, the models should be converging. They are computer games only useful for requesting additional funds.
“All models in physics are approximations. What matters is whether they capture the dominant mechanisms and reproduce observed responses to known forcings within uncertainty.”
When multiple models DIVERGE instead of CONVERGE they are *NOT* capturing the dominant mechanisms.
Uncertainty analysis is *NOT* being done with the models. If it was the uncertainties of the inputs would be propagated properly instead of assuming they are all random, Gaussian, and cancel.
“Little room for fundamentally different causes” does not mean there is no debate, or that dissenting scientists do not exist. It means that alternative explanations are strongly constrained by multiple, independent observations. Any competing theory has to explain not just surface warming, but the vertical structure of temperature change, ocean heat uptake, observed radiative imbalance, and the response to volcanic and solar forcing, all at once.
On models, hindcasting skill depends on what is being tested. Climate models are not expected to reproduce the exact timing of internal variability, but they do reproduce large-scale patterns and responses to known forcings. When driven with observed forcings, they successfully simulate major past climate features, while runs excluding anthropogenic forcing fail to reproduce recent warming. That difference is the key diagnostic, not perfect historical reconstruction.
“On models, hindcasting skill depends on what is being tested. Climate models are not expected to reproduce the exact timing of internal variability, but they do reproduce large-scale patterns and responses to known forcings.”
Then why do they all produce different results, even over the long-term?
Averaging a dozen wrong models can’t produce a single correct model!
Very clear…and wrong.
In climate science in regards to atmospheric physics there IS no acid test. Just a series of hypotheses. That’s fine by me. All these theories are underpinned by assumptions. Like the ones about radiation and its effects on the atmosphere. It is debatable..
I’m not talking about catastrophic climate change. I’m talking about UAH TLT observations. Keep in mind that the model I present above is not sufficient on its own to prove that CO2 is a cause of the warming. What the model does is falsify the hypothesis that there is no correlation between CO2 and UAH TLT temperatures and helps people visualize how many factors can superimpose to produce the jerky up-down temperature pattern on short time scales while simultaneously producing an upward trend on long time scales.
The model proves nothing other than you can derive a series of terms that curve fits to the correlation. There is no experimental data to validate the model or the coefficients being used.
Show us how your model predicts the Little Ice Age and it’s length.
What you are doing is nothing more than creating a French Curve drawing tool. That lets one match small sections of data points quite well but fails as you proceed forward or backward in time
Your comment suggests that you haven’t read AlanJ’s reply to your earlier comment:
“Climate theory is not validated by correlating CO2 and temperature time series, but by applying experimentally validated physics like radiative transfer, thermodynamics, and fluid dynamics to the atmosphere.”
Those “radiative transfer, thermodynamics, and fluid dynamics” are trash. They are data matching algorithms, that’s all. They are *NOT* validated functional relationships for the Earth’s biosphere. Pat Frank proved that by developing a simple linear relationship that is a match for the ensemble average. The fact that none of the models in the ensemble matches any other model is additional proof that the physics are *NOT* experimentally validated. If they were experimentally validated then the models would have tended to converge over the past 40 years, instead they appear to be *diverging*!
I understand this point quite well and it’s pretty obvious that there’s an upward trend – agreed!
However, this really is quite a short time period – the satellite era.
I’ve followed the debate on Global Warming since the mid 1980s and what I’ve observed in that is slightly milder winters in Scotland and just a few warmer summers. But Scotland is very small fraction of the globe. While not a scientist, I do take a real interest in the science. If course some of it is beyond my understanding. But what I can observe are things like sea ice trends and winter snow cover over the N Hemisphere. It seems that the Autumnal refreeze starts every year roughly within a week of the equinox, although 2025 was a bit earlier than normal. The Spring Equinox is similar, almost always within a week or so of the 21 March.
Northern Hemisphere snow cover varies a lot as to when it starts building and then diminishing but in general tends to build to a near normal amount by mid winter.
My point is this: for all the hype and all science, nothing much seems to have changed all that much since the mid 1980s.
Mr. M: Perfect! It gets even better when AlanJ restates the tautology, with a few more words, and can’t see himself in the mirror.
Yet you forgot the main warming effect, absorbed solar radiation.
“I’m talking about the theory that says atmospheric temperatures are driven by the net effect of all factors acting on the atmosphere.”
That is contrary to the Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) conjecture, which blames all warming on human activities, especially those that inject CO2 into the atmosphere.
It’s interesting to note that the Warmunists have abandoned the old hypothesis whereby CO2 is the control knob in favour of a much weaker one in which the gas merely plays some rrole in temperature. Needless to say, the latter hypothesis is completely unfalsifiable.
These guys are using linear regression on a time series to “validate” a conjecture. What a joke.
Climate science needs to start a time series analysis. First differences need to be taken to start a stationary trend and to remove auto-correlation. Then run a stats program to remove seasonality. That provides a nice stationary trend where one can start modeling different combinations of variables to obtain a functional relationship that will accurately predict temperatures.
Except for the suicidal drive to Net Zero to save the planet falsifies your statement.
Where is the large increase in absorbed solar radiation..
You seem to have forgotten it. ! 😉
It is just that the theory is inconsistent!
https://greenhousedefect.com/the-holy-grail-of-ecs/how-to-flip-the-sign-on-feedbacks
It is not a theory. It is a conjecture supported by models. Given a lack of experimental data, it barely rates as a hypothesis.
I’m particularly interested in knowing the meaning of the terms (and the physical units) of:
— “ENSOlag5”
— “ERFvolcanic”
— “ERFanthro”
— “TSIanom”
in the equation (model) being used to make the mathematical calculations that bdgwx so proudly fronts as “AGW theory” with the graph he presented in his above comment and equation given on the top left . . . understanding that a proper scientific “theory” is much more than a single equation, such a E=m*c^2.
Neither curve fitting nor hindcasting qualify as a theory.
ENSOlag5 is the ENSO index from 5 months prior.
ERFvolcanic is the effective radiative force of volcanic aerosols.
ERFanthro is the effective radiative force of anthropogenic aerosols.
TSIanom is the total solar irradiance anomaly.
It is not a theory. It is a model. Specifically it is a very simple model that explains or predicts UAH TLT values.
The purpose of this model is to 1) predict what UAH TLT will report before they report it, 2) falsify the hypothesis that there is no correlation between CO2 and UAH TLT values and 3) help people visualize how many factors can act together to create the jerky up-down behavior of UAH TLT on short time scales while simultaneously creating an upward trend on long time scales.
Two of your definitions just beg the questions: What is the meaning of “effective” and who is the judge of such?
Gee, as I previously explained, an equation cannot explain a theory . . . to drive the point home, the equation E=m*c^2 does not explain Einstein’s theory of special relativity from which it was derived.
If your equation (“model” in your words) is not just curve fitting based upon past UAH TLT data, then please cite how your equation is derived from “first principles” in atmospheric physics.
Also, I humbly request that you use your equation to predict UAH TLT values for the next, say, five years so that all interested WUWT readers can judge for themselves its true predictive value, something you apparently weren’t willing to do on the graph you presented in your above post of January 5, 2026 4:28 pm.
You are trying to teach a statistician that statistics is not the be all and end all of the physical world.
No such theory exists. Feel free to provide details of this “theory”, if you believe it exists.
If you can’t, feel free to feel extremely foolish.
I was perusing messages and this struck my eye. The graph from your model illustrates a problem that people have in interpreting this graph of anomalies. It is tempting to treat anomalies as a temperature, but they are not. Drawing a trend line is not informative of what global temperature is doing.
Why? An initial view at 01-01-2025 makes it appears warmer than any month in 2024, if the graph is treated as temperatures. January is a cold month in the northern hemisphere. The southern hemisphere would have to be impossibly warm to make the globe in January warmer than any month ever.
What is the takeaway? Anomalies are not absolute temperatures. Anomalies are a ∆T/month_average. You can not infer an absolute temperature from them unless a common baseline is used for all anomalies. What you can say is that January 2025 appears to be warmer than any other January.
Putting monthly anomalies in a time series and doing a regression is a worthless endeavor unless a common baseline is used.
“Putting monthly anomalies in a time series and doing a regression is a worthless endeavor unless a common baseline is used.”
You complain about not removing seasonality, then you complain that anomalies remove seasonality.
But for some reason you don’t complain when WUWT publishes monthly UAH update using anomalies and, as far as I can recall, you never complained when Monckton based all his pauses around these anomalies.
For what it’s worth, here’s my temperature calculations for UAH, based on the gridded data.
Because the seasonal variation is relatively small, it doesn’t make too much difference tot he long term trend. 0.155°C / decade for anomalies, 0.160°C / decade for temperature.
But for shorter periods or if you are just looking at specific locations that difference would be greater. Which is why you do not want to do linear regression on seasonal data.
For instance, here’s the anomaly and temperature trends for the Arctic ( > 60°N).
For monthly anomalies, the trend is 0.27°C / decade, whereas for temperature it’s 0.31°C / decade.
You just displayed the problem with “global temperature versus more local regions.
You first graph indicates both summer and winter temperatures are growing by the same amount.
Your second graph shows that summer temperatures have little growth while the winter temperatures have grown considerably.
Is CO2 the cause?
This is the same thing seen in rural temperatures on the USCRN network that I have shown you multiple times. You dismissed them as errors I made. It’s funny that you are now posting the same thing.
“You first graph indicates both summer and winter temperatures are growing by the same amount.”
How can you tell from the graph? In case you don’t understand the world is round and so the different hemispheres have different seasons, and there is no way of telling the rate of change just by looking at the graph. At best all you can do is notice the hottest and coldest month each year.
If you want a break down of the seasonal trends for the Arctic then it’s actually spring that is warming fastest, but there isn’t really much in it.
Winter: 0.26 ± 0.10°C / decade
Spring: 0.30 ± 0.08°C / decade
Summer: 0.22 ± 0.06°C / decade
Autumn: 0.29 ± 0.08°C / decade
“This is the same thing seen in rural temperatures on the USCRN network that I have shown you multiple times.”
You can keep showing them all you like. Unless you are prepared to look at the actual trends, they mean little. Also, none of those graphs are using USCRN.
“You dismissed them as errors I made”
Exact quote or it didn’t happen. I’ve had enough of trying to have a civilized you two, and just having a load of lies about what I’ve said thrown back at me.
Edit: Remembering back, I may have pointed out you were claiming the graphs shows TMax and TMin, and I had to point out that they were just showing TAvg. If that’s the error I was pointing out, then guilty as charged.
You don’t read well do you? Funny how you never quote what I said, only what you think I said.
Here is what I said.
Why don’t you address that issue instead of seasonality which is a whole different issue in trending. I assume you have no answer that refutes my assertion so all you can do is deflect.
Then you have forgotten all my posts on anomaly trends based on different baselines. You obviously didn’t believe what I said and purged it from your memory.
You simply can’t inform one’s self about the absolute temperatures just from anomalies that all have different baseline temperatures.
And, I have complained about UAH and every other trend of anomalies that is made up from different baseline temperatures.
“Funny how you never quote what I said, only what you think I said.”
I quoted your exact words, cut and pasted from your original comment. It was the paragraph I was responding to. Do you think I need to quote your entire post every time?
“Anomalies are not absolute temperatures.”
Well, duh.
“Anomalies are a ∆T/month_average.”
One day you will actually put your obsession with the delta symbol in a way that makes sense. What monthly average are you talking about, why are you dividing the delta of temperature by it. What’s so hard in just saying that an anomaly is a temperature minus a base value?
“You can not infer an absolute temperature from them unless a common baseline is used for all anomalies.”
You can easily infer an absolute temperature from them if you know what the base value is.
“Why don’t you address that issue instead of seasonality which is a whole different issue in trending.”
Seasonality is what you were describing when you said “An initial view at 01-01-2025 makes it appears warmer than any month in 2024, if the graph is treated as temperatures. January is a cold month in the northern hemisphere.”
“I assume you have no answer that refutes my assertion so all you can do is deflect.”
What assertions? All you’ve said so far is that anomalies are not the same as absolute temperature and that an anomaly for January might be warmer than one for July despite July being a warmer month. Why should I refute that – it’s obviously true.
“Then you have forgotten all my posts on anomaly trends based on different baselines.”
You seem to have a problem with the concept of anomalies being based on different base lines. You keep saying that and make it clear you don;t understand why anomalies are used. I can’t recall you ever telling Monckton his pauses were wrong becasue he uses the anomalies in UAH based on different base lines. If you ever made such a statement could you provide a reference.
“You simply can’t inform one’s self about the absolute temperatures just from anomalies that all have different baseline temperatures.”
In case you didn’t notice I did just that for UAH.
It might be helpful to know what modern climate science theory predicts. It predicts that it is the net effect of all factors acting on the atmosphere that drives its temperature. This means that we cannot just look at CO2 or any other factor alone. We have to consider all of the other factors as well. When you do this what you observe is that while CO2 dominates the long term trend as part of its incrementally small but monotonically increasing influence it is dwarfed by the powerful but transient cyclic process in the short term. The most influential of these factors is the ENSO cycle and volcanic eruptions. Said in other way the jerky up-down behavior with an upward slant you see in the UAH TLT plot is what happens when you superimpose short term variability onto a long term trend.
Some ”prediction”! Do you actually read what you write?
Not sure who you are parroting that from but whoever said that is on the special needs spectrum.
Try rephrasing what you parroted in your own words and see if it makes sense.
Those are my own words.
“It predicts that it is the net effect of all factors acting on the atmosphere that drives its temperature”
Where is the big increase in absorbed solar radiation. ??
Did you know that the whole UAH data can be explained by changes in tropical cloud cover !
NOT if one recognizes that most atmospheric scientists/meteorologists do not know if increases in total areal cloud coverage over Earth (including latitudes away from the tropics) result in net global warming or net global cooling.
Beside that, it simply isn’t reasonable to assert that month-to-month changes in global cloud coverage can account for UAH satellite-derived GLAT month-to-month changes of as much as +0.4°C/-0.3°C seen randomly in the UAH data.
Maybe month-to-month changes in GLOBAL atmospheric humidity (TPW) can be a substantial factor, but tropical clouds alone? . . . DOUBTFUL.
Point: Change the cloud cover, change the incident solar EM radiation on the atmosphere and surfaces below the clouds.
It might be helpful to know what postmodern climate science theory predicts.
FIFY.
Unfalsifiable nonsense.
It is easy to falsify. Consider one and only factor and see if it explains all of the variation in the data. If it does not then you have falsified the lone factor hypothesis.
I genuinely have no idea what this means.
I believe you.
Argument would make sense if I had not been subjected to Al Gore standing on a lift platform waving his pointer at a rising temperature line.
Let us know when you complete the list.
. . . and please include on that list the “unknown unknowns” . . . tip-of-the-hat to Donald Rumsfeld for admitting to such in his 2002 press briefing.
It’s all that “trapped heat” that is causing the temperatures to go down.
/s
Shows how appearances can be deceptive. The long-term underlying warming trend in UAH_TLT continued this year.
Yes, if you take just the last 12-months, Jan-Dec 2025, in isolation then you get a cooling trend equal to -1.43 C per decade. Likewise, if you take just the 12-months, Jan-Dec 2023, in isolation then you get a warming trend of +10.1 C per decade.
Clearly, 12-month periods are not reliable indicators of long-term trends.
The complete UAH_TLT data now run from Dec 1979 to Dec 2025. The linear warming rate in UAH up to the start of 2025 (Dec 1979 to Dec 2024) was +0.15C per decade, which works out at a total warming, up to that point, of +0.70C.
If you now add the 2025 values to the full UAH_TLT data (so, Dec 1979-Dec 2025), the warming rate has increased to +0.16 C per decade, with the total warming now standing at +0.74 C per decade.
That continued underlying warming is consistent with AGW theory.
Should read “… with the total warming now standing at +0.74 C” (not +0.74 C ‘per decade’, sorry!)
So give us the functional relationship that connects CO2 to temperature. It should have the form of “T = a(pCO2) + z”.
What has this got to do with the simple observation re the continued long-term warming in UAH?
Are you trying to misdirect from a fact that you find uncomfortable?
Why was there global cooling between 1940 and 1980? CO2 was rising linearly during this time.
Again, what has this got to do with the observation that the long-term warming trend in UAH continued during 2025, despite the cooling over the past 12-months?
Are you guys incapable of answering a question without asking a different one?
How do you know current warming has ANYTHING to do with CO2?
You explain the 40 years of mid-century cooling.
Oh, you can’t.
I point out that the long-term warming trend in UAH has continued in 2025, despite cooling over the course of the year.
You counter by asking a totally unrelated question.
I then point out that you have asked a totally unrelated question to the point I made and ask if you are incapable of answering a question without asking another one.
You answer by asking another totally unrelated question.
There’s a circular aspect to this….
Since temperatures are never static but either cooling or warming over a given period, any prediction will be correct half the time by pure chance. Therfore, your “prediction” is entirely worthless.
My question is entirely pertinent and well-posed, The observation of 40 years of cooling INVALIDATES your conjecture that temperatures are a function of CO2.
It can not be called the AGW “theory” until the null hypothesis test is defined.
It was actually Ron who brought the subject of AGW theory into the conversation, so I’m not sure why you didn’t direct your question to him.
Being “consistent with” is not the same as actually supporting a theory . . . that is, correlation does not necessarily equate to causation.
I invite you to read Jamal Munshi’s excellent examination of the positive correlation of global warming with increasing reports of UFO sightings: “Extraterrestrial Forcing of Surface Temperature and Climate Change: A Parody”. Abstract and free PDF download of Munshi’s paper is available at:
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3144908
To the extent that “AGW theory” is almost exclusively based on increases in atmospheric CO2 concentration due to mankind’s emissions, there is little scientific data (other than correlation) to support this claim and much paleoclimatology data to absolutely refute this claim . . . reference various proxies indicating that prior global atmospheric CO2 levels reached into the range of 2000 to 5000 ppm without accompanying increases in atmospheric temperature, and conversely, prior atmospheric CO2 levels decreased to around 200 ppm without corresponding decreases in atmospheric temperature (Scotese and Berner).
To the extent that “AGW theory” is almost exclusively based on increases in atmospheric CO2 concentration due to mankind’s emissions
Time series and the corresponding trending will never supplant experimental observations that validate functional relationships.
“Time series and the corresponding trending will never supplant experimental observations that validate functional relationships.”
Would you for once say what functional relationship you are talking about? If you are talking about real world observations, there will never beba functional relationship because there will always be unknown factors.
A functional relationship describes how independent variable(s) combine to determine a dependent variable.
Time series can not determine an outcome in a determinate fashion.
Pulling resolution of an anomaly out of the unknown is a perfect example. A functional relationship with a definite determination allows one to gauge the truth value. Not so with a time series.
Climate science uses extraneous resolution to provide the illusion of accuracy and great scientific peowess. “See, we can make measurements better without needing better and better equipment.”. I have seen the use of four decimal places in stating anomaly uncertainty when the actual, physical measurements only had one decimal. Ridiculous.
“A functional relationship describes how independent variable(s) combine to determine a dependent variable.”
Not the question I asked. I’m asking what functional relationship you are talking about. In the case of CO2 forbinstance, what is the functional relationship you expect to validate?
Doesn’t look like that good a fit to me. Virtually all the temperatures after the 1990s are warmer than predicted.
“…CO2 levels reached into the range of 2000 to 5000 ppm without accompanying increases in atmospheric temperature”
You are talking about 500 million years ago. Many things eere different then. We don’t know what effect the CO2 had then, because it’s all just speculation based on models. The data you are using suggests temperatures were at least 5°C warmer than today.
Really???
Then are you actually asserting that a claimed 200-year or so correlation of increasing global temperatures and simultaneous increasing atmospheric CO2 concentrations has more scientific value that the past 600 million years or so of paleoclimatology science observations/data?
Hmmmm . . . I think that “speculations” based on models have guided humanity quite well over the last 1000 years or so, as evidenced by these “models”:
— the periodic chart of the elements wrt chemical reactions
— the Kepler models of celestial mechanics wrt predicting the ephemeris of planets in the solar system and wrt to launched satellites and spacecraft transiting the solar system
— the models of bacterial and viral infections and the transmission of diseases wrt combatting diseases and endemic/pandemic plagues via medicines and vaccinations
— the models of quantum mechanics effects wrt to our understanding of basic physics (reference “The Standard Model”) as well as the development and refinement of numerous semiconductor components and computers (reference “quantum computing”)
— the models of special and general relativity wrt to understanding cosmology and many “strange” objects/phenomena in our universe, including recent confirmation that gravity waves do, in fact, exist
— I could go on and on, but need I?
Just plain false!
“Judd et al. present a record of GMST over the past 485 million years that they constructed by combining proxy data with climate modeling (see the Perspective by Mills). They found that GMST varied over a range from 11° to 36°C.”
(https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adk3705 )
In comparison,
“The current annual GMST is about 15 °C (59 °F)”
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surface_temperature )
Thus, “today’s” average global temperature is about 4°C warmer than the minimum of about 11°C over the period of 300-280 million years ago as plotted by Scotese.
“…has more scientific value that the past 600 million years or so of paleoclimatology science observations/data?”
It’s more relevant in as far as other factors will be more consistent. The world was a very different place 500 million years ago.
“Just plain false! “
You’re shifting the goal posts. You were talking about estimates from Scotese and Berner. In the Scotese graphs temperature never reaches much above 22°C. Now you switch to the modern Judd, et al, reconstruction, and point out that it shows a wider range of temperatures, going up as far as 36°C. This puts all you claims about the models guiding us over the last 1000 years, into perspective. But what you fail to note that this paper says
That may be true, but the issue that I directly addressed was NOT the maximums but the minimums, as I stated directly:
“Thus, ‘today’s’ average global temperature is about 4°C warmer than the minimum of about 11°C over the period of 300-280 million years ago as plotted by Scotese.”
Therefore, I’m not sure if your post just reflects a lack of reading comprehension or was intended to deflect away from the stated point . . . others can decide which, as it really doesn’t matter that much to me.
I was responding directly to your claim that “…CO2 levels reached into the range of 2000 to 5000 ppm without accompanying increases in atmospheric temperature”.
But the same logic applies to ice ages. Unless you can show that there were no factors other than changing CO2 that could have caused an ice-age, then your argument is irrelevant.
This wiki page goes through all suggested causes for the Late Ordovician glaciation. They don;t seem to be short of ideas, but there’s no certainty to any of it.
By the way, I should have picked up on this:
“Thus, “today’s” average global temperature is about 4°C warmer than the minimum of about 11°C over the period of 300-280 million years ago as plotted by Scotese.”
Now you are talking about the glaciations during the Carboniferous period – but that was when CO2 levels were low for the time, similar to levels today. So I’m not sure what contradiction you are pointing out.
Sorry, forgot the link to the wiki page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hirnantian_glaciation#Possible_causes
Well, in fact, what YOU fail to note is that:
1) correlation does not equal causation, and
2) “suggesting” is just a nice world for unscientific speculation.
In fact, I do note these things.
1) You were the one claiming there was no correlation.
2) I was the one pointing out that this was speculation. You got quite upset with the word, remember
Only the 6th warmest December, first time this year a month has been outside the top 4.
Warmest December in the USA, though a small area has a lot of variability.
In fact it was the second warmest year in the US (in the UAH record, starting in 1979).
North America had an unusually stubborn omega block over the middle of the continent for a while.
Was it the first “unusually stubborn omega block” to occur over North America in December since 1979? If not, funny how it set a new record.
Also, how would a single transient climate phenomenon in one month explain a long-term, statistically significant warming trend of +0.2 C per decade over a region in a period spanning 48-years, as the UAH USA48 data show?
We have already seen that apart from a slight step at the 2016 El Nino, neither UAH48 or USCRN show any warming at all since 2005..
Maybe this latest El Nino will give a slight step through 2023-25, time will tell.
But no sign of any human caused warming.
“We have already seen that apart from a slight step at the 2016 El Nino, neither UAH48 or USCRN show any warming at all since 2005..”
Stop guessing and provide some evidence.
2016 was cooler than 2015.
El Niños do not produce a perminent “step” up. Not globally, and certainly not in the US.
The trend in UAH for the US since 2005 is 0.34 ± 0.22°C / decade.
Between 2005 and 2015 it’s 0.10 ± 0.66°C / decade.
Since 2015 it’s 0.25 ± 0.58°C / decade.
There is no way you can tell from those short trend lines that there was any significant step up, let alone that it is the cause of the overall warming trend.
Here’s a graph of USA48 with the overall trend since 1979.
I’d love to know what statistically significant evidence you can provide that this is anything other than a linear rise in temperatures, with a large amount of annual variation.
Hmmm interesting graph. It shows an increase in the anomaly from -0.55° to +0.7° between 1979 and 2025 which is 1.25° increase. (°C-°F?)
If it’s °C and it was colder back in the 1920s then we’ve already breached the magical mystical 1.5°C tipping point and obviously the world climate has tipped in favor of stupidity.
They are in °C. Sorry, should have put that on the y-axis.
“…then we’ve already breached the magical mystical 1.5°C tipping point…”
That’s for global temperatures. And you can’t just compare two years. The trend is about 0.19°C / decade, so a bit less than 0.9°C over the last four and a half decades in the US.
The trend in UAH exist ONLY because of non-human-caused El Nino events.
There is no evidence of any human caused warming… period.
Is that what you believe? Why have you never mentioned it before?
Are your anomalies derived from a baseline annual average, or a comparison of the averages for the same months?
They are just the average of the monthly anomalies, taken straight from the UAH area file.
So they are not, in fact, temperatures at all.
Anaomalies are temperature minus a base value. In this case the base value is the annual average temperature over the 1991-2020 period. There is zero difference between a trend based on annual anomalies and one based on annual average temperatures
“Anaomalies are temperature minus a base value.”
So a 1 C anomaly from a 0 C base value has the same impact as a 1 C anomaly from a 30 C baseline.
T^4
Not what I said.
It was implied.
No, it’s what you inferred.
Not sure how you managed that from me pointing out that an anomaly is a temperature minus a base value – but some people seem determined to misunderstand everything they read.
Well the UAH baseline would be around -30ºC.
That isn’t true. Monthly anomalies are based upon an individual stations baseline temperature rather than a common global baseline. The trends can vary tremendously between anomales and absolute temperatures in an average.
The other problem with anomalies is the retention of non-significant digits. There is no problem with carrying an extra digit throughout calculations, but the final answer should be done with the correct number of significant digits.
A measurement with resolution of 1/10ths of a degree should not be quoted with resolution of 1/100ths. One simply can not know the correct value of each measurement to the 1/100ths. Consequently, there can be no substantive evidence for extending the final answer to that resolution.
Climate trendology “maths” claims it is justified, but then whine (a lot) when reality is pointed out.
“Monthly anomalies are based upon an individual stations baseline temperature rather than a common global baseline.”
There are no stations. And this is an annual average.
“The other problem with anomalies is the retention of non-significant digits.”
Stop prematurely rounding values, then there ia no problem.
“One simply can not know the correct value of each measurement to the 1/100ths.”
Who cares? What difference do you think it will make to the trend? And if it does make a difference, why would you assumr the rounded values are more accurate than the unrounded values?
So it uses a common global baseline to find an anomaly for what regions?
Did you not read my post.
That very adequately reflects both your knowledge of and your opinion of physical science.
“So it uses a common global baseline to find an anomaly for what regions?”
How long wil you keep this up before you actually figure out how anomalies work?
The base figure is uniques gor each location and time of year.
“That very adequately reflects both your knowledge of and your opinion of physical science.”
Thanks. Maybe you should try to understand the point, rather thinking physics is about blindly following style guides.
This is about UAH data, there are no ‘stations’.
UAh has zero warming from 1980-1997, then zero warming from 2001-2015, then cooling from 2017 to 2023.4
The only warming comes at those El Nino events that you HAVE TO USE to get a trend. !
You still haven’t provided any evidence of human caused warming in the UAH data. !
There is also the sun.
Dang! We forgot about the Sun. Scientists: it’s the Sun!
It’s so clear now.
Back to the blackboard …
“Ah has zero warming from 1980-1997”
Actual warming rate is 0.08 ± 0.12°C / decade
“then zero warming from 2001-2015”
0.01 ± 0.13°C / decade
Though why start 2 years after the El Niño, from 1999-2015 it’s
0.06 ± 0.11°C / decade
“then cooling from 2017 to 2023.4”
Talk about cherry picking. I’ll just take this from 2017 – 2022
-0.11 ± 0.54°C / decade
What should be obvious is that all these short term trends have massive uncertainties, caused by the variability of the annual data, and the short periods. In fact all of the trends contain the current underlying rate of warming 0.16 ± 0.04°C / decade, within their confidence interval. Hence none of them show a significant departure from a long term trend.
And that’s before you take into account the known effects from ENSO conditions. See my linear regression else where, which shows that these “zero” warming trends are pretty much what you would expect, just from combining CO2 and ENSO.
UAH showing near zero trend periods.
El Ninos spike + step events provide the ONLY WARMING. !!
Lol! Very shouty, isn’t he?
This is the ‘Magic ENSO’ of nicey’s fevered imagination. The oscillation that only ever warms and never cools global temperatures.
(I know, if it did that then it wouldn’t be an ‘oscillation’. Somebody needs to tell nicey about the cooling half. In fact, don’t bother; he’ll only get shoutier.)
He said since 2005, thus your chart is dishonest.
2005 does not meet the 30 year climate definition currently in vogue.
“He said since 2005, thus your chart is dishonest.”
Only if you failed to read everything I said, and failed to understand the point.
The statistically significant evidence is that the plot does not show temperature. Therefore, it is absolutely NOT a linear rise in temperature.
What do you think it’s showing, if not temperature? It’s the annual average anomaly. That’s going to have exactly the same trend as the annual average temperature.
“It’s the annual average anomaly. That’s going to have exactly the same trend as the annual average temperature.”
Nope.
“Ignorence more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge…”
Charles Darwin
If you and Bellend really think meteorological temperatures can be quoted to 2 or 3 decimal places you are completely ignorant of Physics and Metrology and have nothing to contribute.
This whole article is quoting monthly anomalies to 2 decimal places. If you think Dr Spencer is ignorant of Physics, why don’t you take it up with him, or the admin of this website?
I place far more faith In actual, measured temperature series from defined locations than I do in “averaged” worldwide anomalies.
You appear to be completely ignorant of the concept of averaging.
Only someone with no understanding of Physics thinks temperatures can be averaged.
I keep asking those like TFN how many total degrees of temperature they have in their hand while holding one rock at 70degF and another at 80degF. I never get a rational answer. It’s usually “you can average any set of numbers”. I.e. the statistical world meme of “numbers is just numbers, they don’t have to have any relation to reality”.
If you aren’t holding a total temperature of 150degF then you cannot calculate an average value – at least in the real world!
Yep, I am indeed proudly ignorant of the concept of averaging temperatures, in the same way I am ignorant of Astrology.
The concept of “average” temperatures is unique to Climate “Science”. It certainly does not exist in Chemistry or Physics.
“The concept of “average” temperatures is unique to Climate “Science””
It’s the statistician’s meme of “numbers is just numbers. You can average any set of numbers. The real world doesn’t matter”
Your motto cross stitched into throw pillows on your bed.
Evidence in the graph. Two zero trend periods either side of a slight step
Provides some evidence of human caused warming. .. or don’t. !!
Denying the existence of the 2016 El Nino now…
How much of a “climate denier” are you !!
Thanks for showing the insignificant trends…. doing well. 🙂
Since 2015.. so you are using the 2023-25 El Nino…
… and you still can’t get a significant trend. !! 🙂
“Denying the existence of the 2016 El Nino now…”
And you are back to just lying now.
“Thanks for showing the insignificant trends…. doing well.”
Thos insignificant trends are the ones you are using to claim an El Niño step.
A step is not a trend.
Those insignificant trend you showed are either side of the El Ninos..
And shows there is no warming form most of the USCRN record.. well done.
If you look at the zero trends on the chart below,
before the 2016 El Nino, the zero trend line in USCRN sits at 0.0ºC
after the El Nino it sits at about 0.5ºC
That is a step, and accounts for all the warming in the whole record.
“El Niños do not produce a perminent “step” up.”
Strong El Ninos do.
Bob Tisdale showed this very convincingly.
And it is very obvious in the UAH data.
I would also add that for perhaps the first 15 years or so, the UAH data got very influenced by two major volcanic eruptions. Then, the great 1997-98 El Niño arrived. To get a better idea of what’s happening in the MSU data, you need to begin the trend after the end of the century..
As much as I don’t think single lines representing large areas are meaningful, warmer is better.
Here is my updated annual model based on a liner regression involving CO2, ENSO conditions and AOD.
The red line is the predicted value for each year, the dots are the actual annual anomalies, and the grey ribbon is the 95% prediction interval.
It doesn’t prove much, but does demonstrate that there is no need to invoke step changes or pauses.
Lol.
He forgot the absorbed solar radiation..
DELIBERATELY ignoring the major warming cause.
It funny, if it weren’t so sad.
“DELIBERATELY ignoring the major warming cause.”
You claimed El Niños were the major warming cause.
Are ENSO conditions a driver or the result of temperature changes?
I’d say whatever causes the oscillation, causes a temporary change in global temperatures.
Did you know that those El Nino events are the only warming in the UAH atmospheric data.!!
No I don’t know that.
Maybe you need to repeat the claim a few more hundrd times, or use more explanation marks, before I’m pursuaded.
A couple more CAPITALS would also help persuade!!!!!!!!
No, the El Nino events cause a spike then step.. the only warming in the UAH data.
El Nino events are NOT an oscillation., they are a build-up and release.
“El Nino events are NOT an oscillation”
What do you think the ‘O’ stands for in ENSO?
“they are a build-up and release.”
A release if what? You seem to think there is an infinite sipply of energy in the sea, that can keep being released onto the surface. And that all the energy released then just stays there.
ENSO is a semi-erratic cycle… ENSO value is an indicator.
El Nino is a energy discharge event.
Sad that you don’t understand the difference. !!
—
“You seem to think there is an infinite sipply of energy in the sea”
Yes, there is a constant supply of energy to the oceans..
Its called THE SUN !!
Plot inverse of US president popularity as decided by the Guardian paper on the graph .. I recon it will be a pretty good match 🙂
So is the warming causing unpopular presidents or unpopular presidents causing the warming?
See you said:
I’d say whatever causes the oscillation, causes a temporary change in global temperatures.
You basically admitted you have a correlation but no idea if the two things are even connected. … so basically you know nothing.
Well said. This is the fundamental error at the heart of all climate alarmism.
Measurement doesn’t “invoke” anything. Your surmise neglects the fact that two-thirds of all ACO2 has been released in this century. Yet, averages STILL result in a continuous linear rise in temperature. If ACO2 causes this, then it is an oddly weakening forcing, as shown by recent decades.
Blah, f**’n blah, f**k’n blah.
That’s a pretty succinct synopsis since we have to consider all of the other factors as well.
Mind you, December is basically mid-winter. 😉
Good fortune smiles on the US. ! 🙂
No. December is not mid-winter. Sorry.
One month before.. close enough 🙂
Warmest Dec in the US? Damn cold warmest if you ask me. We haven’t been over 55 throughout most of December and have been almost nonstop daily rain since mid December (around the 20th) with many highs only in the 40s. California has been Damn Cold Warmest if you ask me.
Coldest December in over a decade in Maryland.
There was a big north south divide in North America.
And I’m in California…under that Big Red Zone where its been Damn Cold all month long in December. January has started off as a carbon copy of December.
“And I’m in California…under that Big Red Zone where its been Damn Cold all month long in December.”
Then you need to take it up with UAH. I can’t say if your experience of your local temperatures are accurate or not – but that did get me thinking about the CRN data. So I compared each of the Californian stations for December against the past average. Not every site his active for the same period, but they each have at least 16 years of data.
This is only meant to be a rough and ready check, just to see if anywhere was unusually cold.
ID LOCATION TAvg Anomaly
4222 Redding 9.8 3.4
53139 Stovepipe Wells 14.1 2.2
53150 Yosemite Village 8.1 4.9
53151 Fallbrook 15.7 2.8
53152 Santa Barbara 13.5 2.0
93243 Merced 8.3 1.0
93245 Bodega 10.2 0.2
All stations were above average, though Bodega, only slightly.
Here are the graphs for each station.
Two stations are down on the previous couple of years, two set a record this year, and the rest are close to a record.
But CO2 is well mixed and CO2 “traps heat” so there should not be that. Hmmmm….
“But CO2 is well mixed and CO2 “traps heat” so there should not be that.”
When you say “that,” are you referring to the Earth’s monthly weather?
Yes, it was a strong and persistent El Nino event..
Nearly gone now though.
The last El Nino ended in spring 2024. Nearly two years ago.
Are you hearing voices?
“Yes, it was a strong and persistent El Nino event..
Nearly gone now though.”
According to the ONI data it ended over a year ago.
Say that it’s cooling without saying that it’s cooling….
Because it’s impossible for some to admit that it’s cooling, even while it’s cooling! I can’t forget Phil Jones having to admit that there hadn’t been any statically relevant warming for 30 years. That was painful for him.
Since then, of course, the alarmists have been able to convince a disturbing number of people that not only can we calculate the temperature of the Earth to a hundredth of a K, with no error margin whatsoever, but that such differences actually mean something!
“Say that it’s cooling without saying that it’s cooling….”
OK. How about it’s getting less warm. Will that do?
“Because it’s impossible for some to admit that it’s cooling, even while it’s cooling!”
Who on earth doesn’t think it’s been cooling sine the peak in 2024?
“That was painful for him.”
Not half as painful as all the idiots demonstrating that they don’t know what statistically significant means.
“…not only can we calculate the temperature of the Earth to a hundredth of a K, with no error margin whatsoever, but that such differences actually mean something!”
If you don’t think it means anything, why are you so keen to admit it’s cooling?
No. It’s cooling.
Has been cooling for the last 3000 years +..
What we have now, is a minor blip just above the coldest period in 10,000 years.
You said I wasn’t allowed to say it’s cooling.
One would never guess these arguments / comments were coming from a site that advertises itself as “the world’s most viewed site on global warming and climate change.”
Yep, there are some really stupid AGW believers that troll the site. !
Not one of them has been able to provided any measured scientific evidence that human released CO2 causes warming.
Nor have they been able to show any human-caused warming in the UAH atmospheric data.
Coming from the person who believes there was an El Nino in 2025:
“Since 2015.. so you are using the 2023-25 El Nino…”
So you don’t believe the effect of the El Nino was still hanging about in 2025..
“there are some really stupid AGW believers that troll the site. !”
Maybe the site has the most views because it allows various points of view?
I know you believe that adding CO2 to air makes thermometers hotter, and you are allowed to express that opinion, no matter how ridiculous it is.
You shouldn’t be allowed to say anything.
But it’s not cooling. Not even in UAH. Saying “it’s cooling” because of a few months’ data following a big El Nino ignores the long-term warming, which has continued through 2025, even in UAH.
Oh dam, that is terrible news!
The map for December has now been published.
Here’s my own graph for the average of 2025 (Note, I’m using a shorter scale, to bring out more detail.)
And for those who dislike anomalies, here are the absolute temperatures for December.
And here is the updated trend map.
It is of little consequence if the world warms up a one or two degrees because for many region of the earth there will always long cold and snowy winters like in Canada where I live. The temperature in Yellowknife, NWT is a bone-chilling -31° C.
T
In Oimyakon, East Siberia, the have -47 °C right now.
But…
And you won’t know that from a single line on a graph. At any rate, warmer is better.
When compared to January 1947, −31C looks almost balmy:
About a week or so ago, the temperature in the Yukon plunged to -55° C. Since gold just hit $4500 per ounce, the miner will be flocking to the gold fields.
BTW: There is no such phenomena as climate change.
-55°C is impressive, but not that impressive.
“In the depths of February 1947, a forgotten village carved its name into the coldest pages of North American history.
Snag, Yukon—a speck on the map with a scattering of Indigenous families, trappers, and weather station workers—became the epicenter of something extraordinary.
The air that night fell to -83°F (-63.9°C). Not just frigid. Historic.”
https://www.facebook.com/groups/stunningworlds/posts/1262557912313835/
You really know nothing about radiative heat transfer do you? The hours are basically irrelevant. The angle of incidence is what controls how much heat is absorbed.
JG
My comment wasn’t meant to relate to the concept of radiative heat transfer.
Then why refer to the hours of sunlight?
Source – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowknife
GHCN daily raw data for Yellow Knife (of course originating from Environment Canada):
CA002204200 NT_YELLOWKNIFE_HYDRO__________ 1947 1 31 -53.9 (°C)
CA002204200 NT_YELLOWKNIFE_HYDRO__________ 1947 2 4 -53.9
CA002204200 NT_YELLOWKNIFE_HYDRO__________ 1947 2 1 -53.3
CA002204200 NT_YELLOWKNIFE_HYDRO__________ 1990 1 28 -52.0
CA002204200 NT_YELLOWKNIFE_HYDRO__________ 1947 2 3 -51.7
CA002204100 NT_YELLOWKNIFE_A______________ 1947 1 31 -51.2
*
And my answers to
Of course I don’t, as I never did…
Absols
Anoms
*
Trends in °C / decade:
Absols
1943-2023: 0.6 ± 0.2
1979-2023: 1.0 ± 0.5
Anoms
1943-2023: 0.6 ± 0.05
1979-2023: 0.9 ± 0.11
*
I’m quite sure that who writes such a sentence doesn’t live in a corner with such warming rates, let alone in Irak or Iran, where similar rates apply, but with highest summer temperatures way above 50 °C…
Yep Canada’s been warming ever since that great Mile Thick Laurentide Ice Sheet witch covered >90% of the area began melting some 19,000 years ago
Yes, and if the current rate of warming persists (0.9C/decade – 1979-2023), NWT will have warmed an additional ~4.5C in 50 years. Quite the ice age recovery.
That’s most interesting – to my eye it looks as though most or all of the warming has been in T min rather than Tmax, which is indicative of UHI.
Graemethecat
” That’s most interesting – to my eye it looks as though most or all of the warming has been in T min rather than Tmax, which is indicative of UHI. ”
*
No. Eye-balling is a counterproductive method.
Here is the same graph as above (whic showed Tmin only), now with Tmax added:
Anoms for Tmax
1943-2023: 0.5 ± 0.04
1979-2023: 0.8 ± 0.11
Anoms for 2000-2023
Tmin: 1.1 ± 0.3
Tmax: 1.7 ± 0.3
You should note that recently, UAH’s Spencer & Christy switched from Tmin in winters to Tmax in summers to find out where to optimally find UHI maxima.
The new Monckton Pause extends to 34 months starting in 2023/03. The average of this pause is 0.59 C. The previous Monckton Pause started in 2014/06. It lasted 107 months and had an average of 0.21 C. That makes this pause 0.38 C higher than the previous one.
+0.156 ± 0.039 C.decade-1 k=2 is the trend from 1979/01 to 2025/12 covering 564 values.
+0.027 ± 0.010 C.decade-2 k=2 is the acceleration of the trend.
My prediction for 2025 from the 2025/03 update was 0.43 ± 0.16 C k=2.
My prediction for 2025 from the 2025/04 update was 0.47 ± 0.14 C k=2.
My prediction for 2025 from the 2025/05 update was 0.46 ± 0.11 C k=2.
My prediction for 2025 from the 2025/06 update was 0.47 ± 0.10 C k=2.
My prediction for 2025 from the 2025/07 update was 0.46 ± 0.08 C k=2.
My prediction for 2025 from the 2025/08 update was 0.46 ± 0.06 C k=2.
My prediction for 2025 from the 2025/09 update was 0.48 ± 0.05 C k=2.
My prediction for 2025 from the 2025/10 update was 0.49 ± 0.03 C k=2.
My prediction for 2025 from the 2025/11 update was 0.48 ± 0.02 C k=2.
The actual value reported by UAH for 2025 is 0.47 C.
To make the degree symbol “°”, do the following if your OS is MS:
Depress and lock the “Num Lock key”Depress and hold down the “Alt” keyEnter “0176” on Num Key PadRelease the “Alt” key and “°” will appear.Why do we need to know all this “useless information”?
I happen to have one on my Kindle keyboard °. Along with hundreds of emojis 🍩 ⛄ ✨ 😘 😊 🇻🇪 over 1300 emojis. Just can’t process excel spreadsheets into useful graphs on it.
I’m MEELLLTINGGGGG!
Although the temperature is apparently now lower than in 1998, and indeed lower than in 1988. Funny, that.
I have absolutely no idea why you think any pause only goes back to 2023, but I’m sure it makes sense to you.
The pause is based on Christopher Monckton’s methodology.
Yes, the 2023 El Nino broke the cooling trend from 2017…
…. just like the 2016 and 1998 El Ninos broke the zero trend periods before them.
Maybe that’s why you called it the Monckton Pause? Temperatures are what they are. Some silly people believe that adding CO2 to air makes thermometers hotter – maybe they also believe that the magical properties of CO2 “pause” from time time.
What is your opinion?
It’s the Pause that Refreshes
Ya think?!
bdgwx makes a good point. At least twice, and over two separate periods, this site has entertained a stream of nonsensical posts from Christopher Monckton claiming that global warming had stopped.
The first one he based on RSS satellite data, despite RSS themselves stating that their data, at that time, contained a known cooling bias.
The second one was based on UAH satellite data and started (I think) around 2016. That fell apart, inevitably, as global warming continued, even in UAH.
Several posters here, including me, made numerous counter-posts explaining that this was cherry-picking; that the underlying trend had barely changed and predicting that Monckton’s posts would dry up as soon as it became clear that warming was ongoing.
That’s exactly what happened – both times.
Who knows if WUWT will allow Monckton to make them look ridiculous for a third time?
You are so full of crap. Monckton attempted to show two things.
One, that the water vapor feedback was an erroneous conjecture. Neither you nor anyone else has shown the math whereby the loop gain can exceed “1” without additional energy from the power supply. The sun is the only power into the system. Positive feedback can only obtain power by subtracting power from the output. Running that power around the system can only result in the gain of 1. Show us the math that refutes this with a limited power supply.
Two, remember that the conjecture of AGW at the time was that CO2 was THE control knob. Increase the CO2 and the temperature will increase. There were people rejecting the observation that temperature increases occured prior to CO2 increasing. In the face of “pauses in temperature” while CO2 continues it’s relentless increase leads to the theory that there is a complicated process.
Funny how the “control knob” theory has collapsed into what Monckton postulated, that is, CO2 is not the control knob.
If you admit that CO2 is not the control knob, then guess what? You just agreed with Monckton.
Monckton attempted to show one thing, twice. He twice attempted to suggest that global warming had stopped. He was wrong both times.
Again, what is all this arm-waving stuff about CO2 and ‘control knobs’ when the subject is simply about two failed pronouncements re the end of global warming?
Why do you find it impossible to stick to the matter at hand?
Do you have any example of Monckton talked about a control knob in relation to his pauses? I’ve double checked a few, and all he seems to claim is that the pause demonstrates there has been less warming than predicted, not that this shows that CO2 is not the control knob.
If that was his hypothesis, then how exactly does the pause demonstrate that CO2 is not the main control knob over recent decades? It’s just an analogy, not a theory, but it’s a reasonable one. What it does not say, is that every months temperature has to be in lock step with CO2, just that the natural variation you see, such as from El Niños or La Niñas, are temporary and not something we can control.
Cherry picking a short period where there is a cooling trend will always be possible, as will picking a period where there is a much faster rate of warming. None of this demonstrates any significant departure from the role of CO2.
You really consider the 40 years of cooling from 1940 to 1980 to be a short period?
I see that no one has refuted your assertion that without a power supply injecting additional power to the system the loop gain can be no more than 1.
The implication is that while the internal gradients in the heat engine known as the Earth’s biosphere may change the total heat in the system cannot unless it is driven by changes in the sun’s output, i.e. the only heat source for the biosphere. Any gradient changes are only for the system to drive itself toward equilibrium with the sun’s heat input.
Another implication is that the sun’s insolation can’t be more than about 68% efficient since it is only orthogonal to the Earth’s surface at a few points at any point in time. But the Earth’s surface is orthogonal to space at all spatial points as well as points in time so the efficiency of the Earth’s loss of heat to space is 100% efficient. The Earth doesn’t have to radiate with the same intensity as the sun’s insolation intensity in order to be in equilibrium with the sun.
I have yet to see any functional relationship that embraces both of these. All we get are unstated assumptions of 1. the total heat in the system can increase without a source of additional heat, 2. the total sun insolation is absorbed by the earth regardless of incidence angle and, 3. heat loss during the day is not higher than heat loss at nighttime.
The last gasp of Hunga Tonga?
Not sure if we have completely recovered yet. It may take yet another year. However, I think most of the effect was in clouds so keep an eye on the clouds. They allowed more ocean warming from the sun and that is now fading away slowly but surely.
As a result the cooling tread will likely continue into 2026 and beyond. (or until the next El Nino).
“(or until the next El Nino)”
Precisely. !
Clouds and cleaning up atmospheric particulates from the late 1970s … About when temperatures began to really rise.
The last gasp of people blaming Honga Tonga?
Roy, the year is wrong for the December (2025) row.
The deviation from the average of the period 1991-2020. But don’t we have satellite data back to 1970, and recorded data as far back as the 1800s? Do you throw away old data every time you find a more accurate way of measuring? The old data is information. The period 1991-2020 is too short to be meaningful. The period from 1850 to 2020 is too short, but at least it is more. Ice core data shows that temperature can go counter to its long term tread for even 1000 years. Example, a 1000-year warming trend in a hundred thousand year glaciation period.
2023-2025: Hunga Tonga. 2026: Trending lower.
+0.016 C/year.
Noise in the data.
Cherry picking high temperature weather does not a global trend make.
Over 48 years it’s statistically significant. So emphatically not “noise in the data”
Not if you include the error margins.
You obviously have no physical science degree. There is not a university professor in a physical science lab that would allow you to arrive at a figure that has more resolution than what was measured. There is a good reason for that that you quite likely don’t know or have forgotten. There are even “rules” in common use throughout the world that cover this.Do you know what those rules are called?
Satellites measure ground temperature, the correct temperature is 2 metres above ground. The ground is much hotter.
It’s not possible to calculate the temperature of a planet. It’s a fairy story.
And on occasion, much colder. Hence low level inversions at night, and radiation frost. People have been making ice in desert regions where air temperatures remained above freezing for thousands of years. Practical physics at work.
I agree. The presence of liquid water and solid rock show the planet has cooled over time. That seems obvious to everyone except ignorant and gullible “climate scientists” and their wild-eyed supporters.
“It’s not possible to calculate the temperature of a planet.”
They don’t, They calculate, as here, the global average anomaly.
The anomalies ARE based on calculating the temperature of the planet at various points, an impossibility for an intensive property.
In addition, the anomalies carry the measurement uncertainty of the parent elements with them. Creating an anomaly does nothing but apply a linear constant transformation to the temperature distribution known as the global temperature data set. Such a transformation does *NOT* change the variance of the parent distribution in any way, shape, or form. That variance *IS* a metric for the measurement uncertainty of both the parent distribution and the anomaly.
That measurement uncertainty, using the variance of the temperature data set as a metric, is large enough to totally subsume any supposed difference the anomaly might represent. E.g. a global anomaly of .01 +/- 3 °C (and +/- 3 °C is a totally best estimate, it’s probably much higher) is just meaningless. You have no idea of what the actual difference is. The only way around this is the always unstated assumption of climate science that all measurement uncertainty is random, Gaussian, and cancels.
” Satellites measure ground temperature, the correct temperature is 2 metres above ground. ”
You seemingly don’t know what the UAH team actually measures: namely the average temperature (derived from O2 emissions around 60 GHz) in the lower troposphere (LT), computed as a mix of mid troposphere (MT), tropopause (TP) and lower stratosphere (LS)according to the formula:
LT = 1.538*MT -0.548*TP +0.01*LS
This gives an atmospheric pressure of about 700 hPa (ground: ~1020) giving an altitude of about 3.7 km and, according to the lapse rate, a temperature around 264 K i.e. -24 °C.
This has nothing to do with e.g. AIRS which measures infrared emission from the ground and derives temperatures out of it.
*
” It’s not possible to calculate the temperature of a planet. It’s a fairy story. ”
Sounds pretty like
” The Moon cannot rotate around its polar axis because it shows us always the same face. “
I guess that’s one way of admitting, through gritted teeth, that the past two years were the warmest on your record, Dr S!
You have to phrase it diplomatically like that though, otherwise the crazies will get upset.
It takes time for the temp to fall from such a peak, therefore it is natural that ’25 would still be warm.
To use that in itself as a sign of continued warming from 1980 is beyond stupid. The cooling rate now is exactly the same as the warming rate going into ’24. You continue to show what a political fool you are.
The long-term warming in UAH continued during 2025, despite falling temperatures over the course of the year.
That is the vital and nuanced point that you guys seem to be oblivious to.