Hiding the Pea, Revisited: Remove the Scenario, Keep the Result

Charles Rotter

A recent Nature Climate Change paper titled Peak glacier extinction in the mid-twenty-first century presents itself as a careful, policy-relevant analysis of global glacier loss under a range of future warming levels. Rather than framing its projections around emissions pathways, the authors organize their results around four temperature outcomes by 2100: +1.5 °C, +2.0 °C, +2.7 °C, and +4.0 °C. This choice lends the paper a contemporary appearance, suggesting a move beyond the controversies that surrounded earlier scenario-based impact studies.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41558-025-02513-9

It is important to state clearly at the outset: the paper does not explicitly claim to avoid or correct for RCP 8.5. It does not present itself as a methodological advance over earlier work on those grounds, nor does it acknowledge the debates surrounding the plausibility of that scenario. RCP 8.5 simply does not appear by name.

That silence, however, is precisely what makes the paper instructive. While the scenario label has been removed, the high-end assumptions once associated with RCP 8.5 quietly re-enter the analysis under a different framework. The paper’s most dramatic conclusions—those concerning peak glacier extinction rates approaching 4,000 glaciers per year and near-complete loss by century’s end—are driven largely by a +4.0 °C warming case constructed from SSP5-8.5 and SSP3-7.0 simulations. The result is familiar: the scenario is gone, but the signal remains.

This approach will be instantly recognizable to anyone who followed the paleoclimate proxy reconstruction debates of the past two decades. Steve McIntyre, writing at ClimateAudit.org, documented a recurring procedural pattern. When a particular proxy series was shown to be flawed—often because it was inverted, truncated, obsolete, or otherwise methodologically indefensible—it would be removed. The authors would then announce that the reconstruction was “robust,” because the overall result did not change. What was rarely emphasized was that another proxy, carrying essentially the same statistical signal, had been quietly introduced to take its place.

The pea had not been removed. It had been moved.

The glacier paper follows this same structural logic, translated from proxy networks to scenario construction.

RCP 8.5 has become politically and rhetorically inconvenient. Its assumptions about long-term coal use, population growth, and emissions intensity no longer track well with observed energy trends, and its continued use has attracted criticism even within mainstream climate research. Rather than engaging those criticisms directly, the paper sidesteps them. The RCP framework disappears. SSPs take its place. The analysis is reframed around temperature end-states, severing the connection between projected impacts and the socioeconomic assumptions required to produce them.

The effect is subtle but consequential. By focusing on warming levels rather than pathways, the paper treats a +4.0 °C world as a policy-relevant comparator rather than as an extreme conditional outcome. Nowhere does it ask whether such a trajectory remains consistent with observed electricity generation trends, fuel substitution rates, or historical declines in energy intensity. The scenario exists because the model ensemble allows it to exist, not because the real world is demonstrably moving in that direction.

At this point, a reminder is useful: the issue is not what the authors claim, but what the results depend on.

The paper’s most emotionally potent comparisons—such as equating peak extinction rates to “losing the entire glacier population of the European Alps in just one year”—derive their force almost entirely from the high-end warming case. Under +1.5 °C, the projected peak loss rate is roughly half that value; under +2.7 °C it is intermediate. The wide spread between these outcomes should invite skepticism about policy inference, yet the paper treats the upper bound as a meaningful guide to decision-making.

This is especially striking given the authors’ own admissions about metric fragility. Glacier “extinction” is defined not by physical disappearance in any hydrological sense, but by an area threshold of 0.01 km² or a volume drop below 1 percent of the initial value. The paper acknowledges that glacier number is highly sensitive to inventory resolution, classification choices, and the treatment of small ice bodies, and that it should be interpreted with more caution than mass or area. These caveats are technically correct—and then largely set aside.

What follows is a pivot from conditional modeling to normative language. The authors conclude that their results “underscore the urgency of ambitious climate policy” and that the difference between losing 2,000 versus 4,000 glaciers per year by mid-century is “determined by near-term policies and societal decisions taken today.” This is not merely descriptive. It is prescriptive, and it rests squarely on the same high-end assumptions that have been relabeled rather than interrogated.

This illustrates a methodological culture that treats contested assumptions as interchangeable components so long as the preferred outcome survives. The glacier models are internally consistent. The statistics are competently executed. But the stability of the headline result under substitution is treated as validation, when it should instead prompt the same question McIntyre asked repeatedly in a different context: robust with respect to what, exactly?

In the proxy debates, robustness often meant that removing one criticized series changed nothing because another, functionally similar series had taken its place. In this case, robustness means that removing a discredited scenario label changes nothing because its high-end assumptions reappear under a new framework. The logic is the same. Only the objects have changed.

The pea, once again, has not disappeared. It has simply been moved.

And as before, the audience is invited to admire the steadiness of the result rather than to examine how carefully the cups have been arranged.

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Nick Stokes
December 28, 2025 6:04 pm

 the high-end assumptions once associated with RCP 8.5 quietly re-enter the analysis under a different framework”

What are they?
The postulated temperature changes are the scenarios. You can make of them what you will, but they stand on their own.

Michael Flynn
Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 28, 2025 7:12 pm

The postulated temperature changes are the scenarios

“Postulated” and “scenarios” says it all. Another bizarre fantasy written by a number of ignorant and gullible people who believe that adding CO2 to air makes thermometers hotter!

I’m sure Nature would accept a paper from you, provided you pay in advance. Start hammering away on that keyboard!

leefor
Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 28, 2025 7:14 pm

Yeah and they even combine the models. What could possibly go wrong? 😉

Mr.
Reply to  leefor
December 28, 2025 8:15 pm

“Spreadsheet scientists” at it again.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 28, 2025 10:21 pm

“but they stand on their own.”

No, they are pure fiction… make-believe.. whatever.

They have no standing whatsoever.

observa
Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 29, 2025 3:41 am

Yes but if you take Asteroid risk scenarios 1, 2, 3 and 4 Nick you can easily see that scenario 4 dwarfs their worst case postulate and isn’t worth worrying about. It’s all about the Asteroids mate and we Asterologists need more grants to make the community more aware.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 29, 2025 4:14 am

Stand on what?

Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 29, 2025 5:03 am

The postulated temperature changes are the scenarios.

NB : The IPCC last used the term “scenarios” for AR4 (2007). They now use “emission pathways” instead, RCPs for AR5 (2013) and SSPs for AR6 (2021/2).

In the WG-I, “The Scientific Basis”, contribution to the AR6 document cycle the “scenarios” are the inputs to the climate models, as shown in Figure SPM.4 (panel a, the top graph in the attached composite image file).
Note that these are fixed numbers for each future year of a given emissions pathway, not ranges.

The “temperature changes” are a set of ranges that come from the outputs of the climate models, reflecting the range of (derived) ECS values associated with individual models, as shown in Figure SPM.8 (panel a, the middle graph in the attached composite image file).

As for all genuinely scientific predictions (/ “projections”) they actually gave a range for all input “scenarios”, not just the SSP3-7.0 and SSP1-2.6 shaded ranges shown in Figure SPM.8, as summarised in Table SPM.1 (copied in the bottom section of the attached composite image file).

.

Would you like to rephrase the confident statement I extracted at the start of this post ?

AR6-WGI_SSPs-vs-Temps-composite
Nick Stokes
Reply to  Mark BLR
December 29, 2025 5:35 am

No. Scenarios are really simple, everyday things. They are conditional predictions. There is some aspect of the future that you can’t predict, usually because it depends on some human decisions. But you can say that if A happens, then B will result. If you drop a ball from 5 metres, it will fall for 1 sec. That doesn’t mean that you will drop a ball. We don’t know that. But we can say what will happen if you do.

This post says that if temperatures rise by 4C, various things will happen. It doesn’t say temperatures will rise by 4C. It also calculates what would happen with a rise of 1.5C.

Your stuff about SSP is irrelevant to that. But it’s true that there has been an effort to get closer to what humans actually decide. Hansen used GHG gas concentrations. Single values, and no argument about exactly what made them that way. Now people use economic postulates, which are closer to what people decide, but yield fuzzy physical results.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 29, 2025 8:28 am

If you drop a ball from 5 metres, it will fall for 1 sec.

Attached to the end of this post is a copy of the “Global” panel of Figure 1 of Van Tricht et al (2025).

You appear to want readers to infer that the paper referenced in the ATL article has exactly the same amount of empirical / experimental evidence supporting it as “F = ma”.

News flash : It doesn’t.

The paper reports on what their computer models “project” could happen in a +4°C scenario regarding “glacier loss rates”, which is a slightly more complicated physics problem than “dropping a ball 5 metres”.

.

This post says that if temperatures rise by 4C, various things will happen.

It also calculates what would happen with a rise of 1.5C.

From the ATL article :

The paper’s most dramatic conclusions—those concerning peak glacier extinction rates approaching 4,000 glaciers per year and near-complete loss by century’s end—are driven largely by a +4.0 °C warming case constructed from SSP5-8.5 and SSP3-7.0 simulations.

From AR6 WG-I section 1.6.1.4, “The likelihood of reference scenarios, scenario uncertainty and storylines”, on page 239 :

Among the five core scenarios used most in this report, SSP3-7.0 and SSP5-8.5 are explicit ‘no-climate-policy’ scenarios (Gidden et al., 2019; Cross-Chapter Box 1.4, Table 1), assuming a carbon price of zero. These future ‘baseline’ scenarios are hence counterfactuals

NB : Although not explicitly stated by the IPCC the SSP1-1.9 and SSP1-2.6 emissions pathways, which the Van Tricht et al paper combine into their “+1.5°C” option, are just as “counterfactual” as the SSP3-7.0 / SSP5-8.5 (/ RCP 8.5) “+4°C” option.

Why then does the abstract include “up to ~4,000 glaciers vanishing annually” without also including a “the peak rate could be as few as ~2,000 glaciers vanishing annually” disclaimer ?

.

Now people use economic postulates, which are closer to what people decide, but yield fuzzy physical results.

Below (hopefully ?) is a plot of actual anthropogenic fossil-fuel “carbon” emissions up to 2024, compared to both the CMIP5 / RCP and CMIP6 / SSP “scenarios” out to 2070.

comment image

Can you see why the IPCC says that SSP3-7.0 and SSP5-8.5 (and RCP 8.5) are “counterfactual” ?

Can you see why the hopes of “Net Zero by 2050” are also “counterfactual” ?

For now people are “deciding” to follow SSP2-4.5, not the combination of SSP3-7.0 and SSP5-8.5 that Van Tricht et al used for their “+4°C” option.

Van-Tricht-et-al_2025_Figure-1-Global
Reply to  Mark BLR
December 29, 2025 8:34 am

Note to site programmers.

If I “bold” individual words within a “blockquote” section the entire “blockquote” is now “bolded” after hitting the “Post Comment” button (the “preview” version is correct).

This behaviour is new, i.e. “only since this weekend’s update” …

Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 29, 2025 10:55 am

No. Scenarios are really simple, everyday things. They are conditional predictions fantasies made up to frighten people.

FIFY

Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 29, 2025 2:06 pm

If you make incorrect (bad) assumptions … you will be wrong.

You see, the people (and concepts) that you are assuming are trustworthy and straightforward … ARE NOT.

The people that provided you with the ball don’t acknowledge that it is filled, at least with partially, with helium. The ball itself is also very light (relatively to other balls that are typically ‘dropped from 5 meters’). So, when it is released from its static position, it may not ‘fall’. We don’t really even know the overall mass of the ball … it may actually even fall at a negative rate (which means it may rise). Nobody knows what the ball will do since nobody knows the mass of the ball.

I’m not saying that they added helium to intentionally fool a large pool of useful idiots; or they did it because they were ignorant and did not know if it was filled with helium or a combination of other gasses; or they did it because they knew that they would be paid again in the future if they “conveniently” ignored the fact that they didn’t know the mass of the ball. But the ball that may, or may not, be released is not a ball that you know a lot about.

(In other words … Your analogy sucks.)

Nick Stokes
Reply to  DonM
December 30, 2025 12:33 am

The people that provided you with the ball”

Nobody provided a ball. If somebody did provide such a ball, it would not conform to the scenario.

Denis
Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 29, 2025 5:35 am

Here is another “scenario” for you Nick, 20C by 2100. Does that one “stand on its own,” whatever you mean by that?

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Denis
December 29, 2025 6:07 am

A gay princess drops a 1kg diamond from a 5m wall. How long will it take to fall? You can calculate it, whether or not the scenario is likely.

puckhog
Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 29, 2025 6:42 am

Yes, but when the scenario and results are being used to drive policy, the likelihood matters. For example, if Trump or his economic advisors were basing their policy decisions on a scenario that included 20 years of inflation at 20% or greater, I’m guessing you wouldn’t be okay with that, even if the subsequent calculations were defensible.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  puckhog
December 29, 2025 12:23 pm

Scenarios are multiple, and cover a range. The calculations are done. Which scenario is then chosen is up to the user. Policy should be based on the whole picture. If Trump chooses the top inflation scenario, that is his choice. Here, for example, the scenarios were 1.5, 2.5 and 4C. The scientists aren’t telling you that any one is right.

puckhog
Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 29, 2025 2:16 pm

Policy should only be based on the whole picture when the whole picture reflects reality. To include scenarios that are broadly regarded as not based on reality is asinine. If you were designing a bridge, you’d include a wide range of weighing and wind scenarios, but you’d never build a scenario where gravity suddenly changes. And, to be clear, I recognize that using non-realistic assumptions or scenarios can have their place (it’s the old spherical chicken in a vacuum joke, which can have value for theoretical thought experiments). But when you take those results and apply them to the real world, as these authors have done in forecasting real impacts on glaciers, that has no value.

But at least you indicate that you’re willing to accept asinine results in both directions, so I’ll give you that.

Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 29, 2025 12:40 pm

Not sure of the relevance of “gay princess.”

The calculation of acceleration due to gravity is specific and demonstrateable.

Not do with the multitudes of climate models.

You are nominated for a Sophistry Class 1 award.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 29, 2025 2:12 pm

Again, your analogy sucks.

The retaining wall that your gay princess is standing on has a drop on one side that varies between 5.5 meters & 2.5 meters; on the retaining side of the wall it varies between 0.5 meters & -0.5 meters.

You tell me how long it will take to fall … given available information.

Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 29, 2025 10:51 am

Hey Nick, how would the glaciers fare with a 50 C temperature change? ’cause you know The postulated temperature changes are the scenarios. You can make of them what you will, but they stand on their own.

Nick Stokes
Reply to  Fraizer
December 29, 2025 12:24 pm

The answer is, poorly. So how likely is a 50C change. That is a question to you.

Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  Nick Stokes
December 29, 2025 12:37 pm

“but they stand on their own.”

A 2-legged stool stands on its own until you remove your steadying hand.

If the assumptions are not identified and allowed to be challenged, the have nothing to stand on.

Take the bait. I dare you.

David Loucks
December 28, 2025 7:21 pm

Glaciers are retreating and most except for the large ones) may well mostly disappear this century, just as they did 1000 years ago and 2000 years ago and during the Holocene Optimum. However that is not guaranteed and can not be predicted. If it comes to pass will be because of natural cycles and not due to CO2 emissions.

DD More
Reply to  David Loucks
December 28, 2025 10:34 pm

natural cycles”?
Are you refering to ‘Winter’, when many of these mountain ranges get a ton of snow, that piles up in the valleys?

Bruce Cobb
December 28, 2025 7:54 pm

It is truly amazing the myriad of ways the Climate Liars have of lying. When one way is shut down, ten more take its place.

sherro01
December 28, 2025 7:55 pm

Charles,

You are not alone with your observations here. This link to statistician William M Briggs says much the same but with a different style.
https://www.wmbriggs.com/post/59551/

There are more publications making the same point. The mystery is why so many people remain stubbornly unconvinced, preferring belief to rigorous analysis.

Geoff S

Reply to  sherro01
December 29, 2025 6:50 am

Briggs is great. Highly credible and understandable. I follow him on X and thereby see a lot of his posts.

KevinM
December 28, 2025 7:59 pm

Worst case, not really possible per authors, +4C… sounds…. nice? I’m cold.

Chris Hanley
December 28, 2025 8:22 pm

I don’t get these so-called “scenarios”, they are IPCC alchemy.
The known effect of increasing CO2 concentration is logarithmic.
All else being equal, climate sensitivity to increasing CO2 is ~+1C per doubling of the atmospheric concentration.
To force +4C by 2100, all else being equal, the CO2 concentration would need to reach over 6000 ppm which is impossible.

Reply to  Chris Hanley
December 28, 2025 10:25 pm

You mean the “theoretical radiative effect”, disregarding all the massive and overwhelming other methods of energy transfer.

Bob
December 28, 2025 8:29 pm

Charles I am sure everything you have said here is correct. My problem is with the science/academic gibberish these people use. I don’t care if they are talking about RCP or SSP the point is they are referring to things that are meaningless to ninety percent of the population. My understanding is that both are written in watts per meter squared. What the hell does that mean to the vast majority of us? Nothing. The only thing I can gather is that 8.5 would be worse than 2.5. We are not going to win this battle by convincing the other side that we have science and they don’t. It will be won when we can clearly and simply show the common guy that he has been lied to and cheated for decades and it has cost him a whale of money, freedom, choice and convenience all for nothing.

Reply to  Bob
December 29, 2025 2:09 am

There are a multitude of papers which do exactly what your last sentence says. The problem is the MSM won’t publish / broadcast the contents of them.

Denis
Reply to  Oldseadog
December 29, 2025 5:41 am

Then perhaps we should not kill all the lawyers as Shakespeare once wrote, but all the journalists instead.

Mr.
Reply to  Denis
December 29, 2025 6:57 am

Steady on.
Most of the “journalists” were
“only following orders”

Reply to  Mr.
December 29, 2025 7:53 am

Correct. It is the owners of the MSM who need to sort themselves out.

Editor
December 28, 2025 10:36 pm

The paper should have been based on an unbiased set of nine post-industrial temperature outcomes by 2100: -4.0 °C, -2.7 °C, -2.0 °C, -1.5 °C, 0.0 °C, +1.5 °C, +2.0 °C, +2.7 °C, and +4.0 °C. That could have been a lot more interesting, but because of its reliance on models it would still not have been credible.

KevinM
Reply to  Mike Jonas
December 29, 2025 7:45 am

-4C would produce the most terrifying results. I hope its as unlikely as it sounds.

auralaywales
December 29, 2025 5:01 am

Can someone tell me what is so important about glaciers anyway? Ok, they provide playgrounds for the wealthy and maybe stop North Africans taking elephants to attack Rome, but other than that they’re about as useful as cuckoo clocks. They are just ruining useful farm and grazing land.

KevinM
Reply to  auralaywales
December 29, 2025 7:47 am

Canary in the coal mine. The coal miners were not PETA fans, the bird itself was being used as a thing.

TBeholder
Reply to  auralaywales
December 29, 2025 1:26 pm

Um, albedo? Ice and snow surfaces tend to be very white and reflective.
Hence it serves as positive feedback, in that the more of it melts and gets replaced with darker surfaces, the more light is absorbed. Leading to glacial/interglacial states. Of course,

  1. If the ice is ever gone, relevant heating will stop, as at this point the equilibrium is reached. Since it’s the only positive feedback out there that’s big and eminently observable, rather than “it totally is there lurking under noise level” or “cow farts make penguins and bears forget how to swim” sort of thing. And…
  2. Negative feedbacks mostly keep up. Since obviously there’s more than extreme glacial, extreme interglacial and transition running at maximum speed, the system does not get stuck in one extreme state until some catastrophic event toggles it again. Otherwise Medieval Warming Period would not stop before 0% non-arctic ice, and Little Ice Age would roll ever faster toward a big ice age.
TBeholder
December 29, 2025 12:40 pm

Considering the scenario was changed from cooling to warming, yet the “solution” remained mostly the same (it seems to only have been expanded with one big point “oh, and no energy production in the hands of hu-mon peasants”, which however does not interfere with the rest)…

December 29, 2025 2:17 pm

Charles,

Am I missing something here.

Did they seriously define a glacier as becoming extinct if it lost 1% of its volume???

This is especially striking given the authors’ own admissions about metric fragility. Glacier “extinction” is defined not by physical disappearance in any hydrological sense, but by an area threshold of 0.01 km² or a volume drop below 1 percent of the initial value.