…we are the “Red Team”; the “Blue Team” has had their say since the late 1980s.
From Dr Roy Spencer’s Global Warming Blog
Roy Spencer
PREFACE: What follows are my own opinions, not seen by my four co-authors of the Dept. of Energy report just released, entitled A Critical Review of Impacts of Greenhouse Gas Emissions on the U.S. Climate. Starting sometime tomorrow, the comment docket at DOE will be open for anyone to post comments regarding the contents of that report. We authors will read all comments, and for those which are substantiative and serious, we will respond in a serious manner. Where we have made mistakes in the report, we will correct them. That is the formal process for adjudicating these issues. Regarding the informal process, tomorrow I expect we will agree on how to handle media requests to respond to objections from the few “climate alarmist” scientists that journalists usually turn to for such comments. To those journalists I would say: read our report, as journalists used to do; you might be surprised to learn a lot of the published science does not support what the public has been led (by you) to believe.
Yes, Increasing CO2 Causes a Warming Tendency in the Climate System… So What?
In my experience, much of the public has splintered into tribal positions on climate change: We either believe increasing CO2 (mainly from fossil fuel burning) has no effect, or we believe it is causing an existential crisis. There are a smaller number of individuals somewhere in the center (climate independents?)
But there is a lot of room between those two extremes for the truth to reside. Among other things, our report presents the evidence supporting the view that (1) long-term warming has been weaker than expected; (2) it’s not even known how much of that warming is due to human greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions; (3) there are good reasons to believe the warming and increasing CO2 effects on agriculture have so far been more beneficial than harmful to humanity; (4) there have been no long-term changes in severe weather events than can be tied to human GHG emissions; and (5) the few dozen climate models now being used to inform policymakers regarding energy policy are not fit for purpose.
Those models, even after decades of improvement, still produce up to a factor of 3 disagreement between those with the least warming and with the most warming (and ALL produce more summertime warming in the critically-important U.S. Corn Belt than has been observed). How can models that are advertised to be based upon “basic physical principles” cause such a wide range of responses to increasing CO2?
And there are many more than those 5 elements contained in our report; those are just my favorites as I sit here thinking at 4:30 a.m.
One of the things we did not delve into was costs versus benefits of energy policies. Clearly, the politically popular switch to energy sources from only wind and solar involves large tradeoffs. If it were not so, there would already be a rapid transition underway from fossil fuels to wind and solar. Yes, those “renewable” sources are growing, and becoming less expensive. Yet, global energy demand is growing apace. But there are practical problems which make ideas such as “Net Zero emissions” essentially impossible to achieve. Maybe that will change in the distant future, who knows? I personally don’t really care where our energy comes from as long as it is abundant, available where it is needed, and is cost-effective. But I won’t buy an EV until it can transport me 920 miles in 14 hours during winter.
But I digress. Yes, recent warming is likely mostly due to increasing CO2 in the atmosphere. But is this necessarily a bad thing, in the net? Cold weather kills far more people than hot weather. Increasing CO2 is causing global greening and contributing to increased agricultural yields. These are things that need to be part of the national conversation, and things our Report begins to address.
Virtually everyone on Earth endures huge changes in weather throughout the year, with as much as 130 deg. F swings in temperature. Can we really not adapt to 2 or 3 degrees more in the yearly average?
Sure, if we can “fix” the “problem” without sending us back to the Stone Age, then do it. But the public has been grossly misled about what that would entail in terms of human suffering (energy is required for literally everything we do), and they have been grossly misled about how much climate change has actually occurred. Read the report.
Why Would Climate Science Be Biased Toward a Specific Outcome?
I’m old enough to remember when climate change meant the global cooling resulting from particulate pollution in the atmosphere. And there was a lot of that pollution as late as the 1970s. In the 1960s during my family’s car trips between Iowa and Pennsylvania, every pass through Gary, Indiana was dreaded. You could see maybe one or two blocks away, because there was so much industrial pollution. I could not understand how anyone could live in those conditions.
Then the EPA was formed in 1970. Messes were cleaned up, on land, in the air, and in our waterways. We came to believe any environmental problem we created could be fixed.
Then we had the ozone depletion scare. With the Montreal Protocol signed in 1987 the countries of the world agreed to gradually phase out production of chlorinated compounds that are believed to cause destruction of the protective ozone layer in the stratosphere.
Finally came the Big Kahuna of manmade pollution: Carbon Dioxide, and fears of global warming. By the late 1980s the U.N. formed the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) to evaluate the science of greenhouse gases and how they affect the climate system. Large amounts of federal funds went into this new area of science.
In the early 1990s I visited Robert (Bob) Watson at the White House who was Al Gore’s science advisor on environmental matters. Bob, a stratospheric chemist, was instrumental in getting the 1987 Montreal Protocol established. In that meeting, Bob remarked on the formation of the IPCC something to the effect of, “We are now regulating ozone-depleting chemicals, and carbon dioxide is next”.
I was astounded that the policy goal had already been decided, and now all we needed to do was to fund enough science to support that goal. That was how I interpreted his statement.
In the early years the IPCC was relatively unbiased in its assessments, and conclusions were tentative. All scientists, whether climate alarmists or skeptics, were allowed to participate. But as the years went by, those with skeptical viewpoints (e.g. John Christy) were no longer invited to participate as lead authors of IPCC report chapters.
Other scientists simply chose to stop participating because their science was being misrepresented (e.g. Chris Landsea from the National Hurricane Center, who thought the hurricane data did not support any human influences.)
Today, global warming is big business. According to Grok, since 1990 the U.S. Government has spent $120-$160 Billion on climate change research. As one of the NASA instrument lead scientists on “Mission to Planet Earth”, I was also a beneficiary of that funding, and most of my funding over the years has come from climate-related appropriations.
So, why is climate science biased? First, when we decided that essentially 100% of research funding would come from the government, we put politicians (and thus policy goals) either directly or indirectly in charge of that funding.
Second, Congress only funds problems to be studied… not non-problems. As President Eisenhower warned us in his 1961 farewell address, these forces could lead to a situation where “public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite”.
That has now happened. We now have a marching army of scientists (myself included) whose careers depend upon that climate funding, and possibly trillions of dollars in renewable energy infrastructure in the private sector dependent upon the whims of government regulation and mandates. If the climate change threat were to disappear, so would the government grants and regulations and private investments.
As they say, follow the money.
I used to say there are two kinds of scientists in the world: male and female. (Now I’m probably not even allowed to say that). My point was that scientists are regular people. They have their own opinions and worldviews. I went into a science field because I thought science had answers. How naive of me. I should have been an engineer, instead. In the field of climate science (and many other sciences) two researchers can look at the same data and come to totally opposite conclusions. Your data can be perfect, but what the data mean in terms of cause and effect is often not obvious. With engineering, either it works or it doesn’t.
We proved this cause-vs-effect conundrum in the context of climate feedbacks (positive feedbacks amplify climate warming, negative feedbacks reduce it) back in 2011 in this paper. We showed that natural variations in clouds, if not accounted for, can make the climate system seem very sensitive (lots of warming) when in fact it is insensitive (little warming).
The morning that (peer-reviewed) paper appeared in the journal Remote Sensing, the journal editor publicly apologized for letting it be published and was (we believe) forced to resign. Who forced him? Well, from the Climategate emails we get a hint: as it was revealed by one of the “gatekeepers” of climate publications, “[name redacted by me] and I will keep them out somehow — even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is!”
That same morning I was called by a particle physicist who heard all of this news and said something to the effect of, “What’s wrong with you climate guys? We have people who believe in string theory and those who don’t, but we still work together”. We both laughed over the divisive nature of climate science compared to other sciences.
Which tells you there is more than science — and even more than money — involved in the disagreement. Every environmental scientist I have ever met believes Nature is fragile. That is not a scientific view, but it is a view that colors how they interpret data, and then what they tell environmental news reporters as it is passed on to the public.
Finally, wouldn’t everyone like to work on something that can make a difference in the world? And what higher calling could there be than to Save the Earth™?
Discover more from Watts Up With That?
Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.
This is an unvalidated assertion – a belief. If you believe it, you are part of the problem.
The warming trend is readily explained by Earth’s relationship with the Sun and solar POWER; quite distinct from solar energy.
The recent summer solstice at 25N had a daily available siolar EMR of 469.2W/m^2. The coming summer solstice at 25S will have a daily average available solar EMR of 500.4W/m^2. It is quite obvious why Australia is the dry continent. But the difference in solar forcing between the NH and SH has been reversing since 1700. Consequently the NH is into a long term warming cycle that will reverse in 9,000 years.As the saying goes – you ain’t seen nothin yet.
Who knew that Greenland is increasing in elevation?
?w=680&ssl=1
Warming oceans in the NH are the beginning of the current NH glaciation. History informs us of that.
The CO2 fairy tale has set climate science back 100 years. Milankovitch nailed the prime driver of climate change over a century ago. There is far more data now and far more effective analysis tools to cast the observed climate trends into Earth’s relationship with the SUN and truly understand climate change:
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2025/05/04/high-resolution-earth-orbital-precession-relative-to-climate-weather/
The report was a good start in discrediting the current crop of climate models. But the lack of reference to Milankovitch as providing a suitable avenue for future climate study is an omission.
My favourite item in the report is Figure 5.5. It is damning of all existing climate models. Their inability to incorporate convective overshooting and the thermal control that creates on ocean surfaces is a fatal flaw among all the other fatal flaws.
From perplexity,ai – Phil Jones:
A widely cited example is a July 2004 email in which Jones discussed two papers skeptical of mainstream climate science and wrote, “I can’t see either of these papers being in the next IPCC report. Kevin [Trenberth] and I will keep them out somehow—even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is!” At the time, both Jones and Trenberth were lead authors on an upcoming IPCC chapter.
Pretty much everyone on this site is enormously appreciative of your fantastic work Dr. Spencer, but I do agree with RickWill’s post above, in that the sentence he quotes is just plain incongruous with the scientific null hypothesis. There is zero empirical evidence that recent warming is most likely due to increased CO2 in the atmosphere. There’s more empirical evidence that it isn’t.
Shown in the chart (See below) is a plot the average annual temperature at Adelaide, Oz which shows a cooling from 1857 to 1999. In 1857, the concentration of CO2 was ca. 280 ppmv (0.55 g CO2/cu. m.) and by 1999, it had increased to ca 375 ppmv (0.74 g CO2/ cu m.) but there was no increase in temperature. Instead, there was a cooling of ca 1 deg C. Clearly, this data falsifies the proposal that CO2 causes warming of air.
The chart was obtained the late John Daly’s website “Still Waiting For Greenhouse” available at: http://www.john-daly.com. From the home page, page down to:
“Station Temperature Data”. On the “World Map”, click on “Australia” and the on
“Adelaide” If you click on the chart, it will expand and become clear. Click on the
“X” in the circle to return to comment text.
What is the empirical evidence you mentioned? Post some of it here.
“What is the empirical evidence you mentioned?”
Eh? Here’s what I said:
“There is zero empirical evidence that recent warming is most likely due to increased CO2 in the atmosphere.”
Ok. Check out temperature chart for Death Valley from John Daly’s website.
Are you in the middle of some kind of extended brain fart Harold? I would try to respond to your posts if I could grasp what it is you are talking about?
All I am saying is that is too little CO2 in the air to have any effect on weather and climate.
Charles, if you’re tracking comments, I may be slow but I get Mosher’s point now. (Although I still wish he would use caps and punctuation.)
That’s why I couldn’t understand your posts, because I’m saying just that in a different way (zero hard scientific data etc etc), but I would add that this is above 280 ppm CO2. Also, your temperature plots you posted represent some of the data I was thinking of to support my last sentence. See now why I was confused?
Here is a screen shot of the home page from John Daly’s website.
To say that Roy Spencer’s prudential judgement is a belief, implying that it is an act of faith not based on evidence, and then to say that in making that assessment he is ‘part of the problem’, is in my view PART OF THE PROBLEM. The problem being that reasonable discourse based on data no longer occurs between members of the warring tribes. You illustrate that exact problem that he raised.
You don’t represent a skeptical view at all. You represent an out-of-favor dogmatic opinion that is equally closed off to contrary evidence as any Michael Mann-type character. The difference is only that you have a different dogma that must be protected against reality.
Yes, it is obvious why Australia is the dry continent, but it’s not a higher solar intensity. It’s called the Hadley circulation—tropical thunderstorms drawing in air from regions closer to the poles and returning bone-dry air from aloft onto the areas from which air was pulled along the surface. If more intense sunlight were the cause of dryness, why are Brazil and Singapore the steamy wet places that they are along the equator where the sun is more intense on average?
The east coast of South America is not elevated. The whole region of the amazon is the equivalent of Australia’s east coast. The elevation doers not increase appreciably till the Andes to the west of the Amazon.
Singapore is not much different to Cairns. Both having sufficient water to maintain convective instability.
As the solar intensity moves north we will see Australia become a wetter continent as the biomass increases from the north and retains sufficient moisture to support convective instability over the land. It has been observed in early 2024.
Dr. Spencer himself indicates “it’s not even known how much of that warming is due to human greenhouse gas”…of course the part he leaves out is “if any”, e.g. the appropriate scientifically based phrasing should be “it’s not even known how much, if any, of that warming is due to human greenhouse gas” (bolded section added).
And THIS is the actual problem with at least Dr. Spencer’s position, he will acknowledge on one hand that there is 0 knowledge of CO2’s warming affect but then happily stake out a position that it is “likely mostly due to increasing CO2 in the atmosphere”. As a scientist he can NOT have it both ways. Or, as Rickwill put it, the 2nd phrase is just a ‘belief’, it is an ‘unproven conjecture’, and would not matter how much ‘evidence’ for this belief Dr. Spencer tries to produce as that evidence would always be at odds with having ‘NO knowledge’ of ‘how much warming is due to human greenhouse gases’.
To the extent that Dr. Spencer is playing a significant position in helping to roll back the worst excesses of the climate cabal I will give him his due props, but he’s paid as a scientist, and not just ‘playing one on TV’, to that extent he must take care in how he’s positioning his statements.
Exactly my reaction, Rick.
Unfortunately, the “gold standard” of science requires more than opinion to support it. All you have is your opinion, and appeals to the opinions of others.
Adding CO2 to air does not make it hotter – not even a tiny bit. That’s just fantasy.
No offense intended, but as Richard Feynman said –
John Tyndall’s experiments show that you are wrong. That’s it.
The whole issue lies in the word ‘likely’. That is not a scientific term nor is it an indication of a statistical analysis.
It is, in short as many people have stated an opinion or belief and really a rather sloppy way of putting it. Because CO2 lies at the heart of the issue i am disappointed he even put it in. Not because i might disagree but it is used to put it in context with the sentences that follow. I call it the Lomborg fallacy.
Re. albedo, clouds and global temperature.
In chapter 8.4, page 92, we read:
“In summary, the decline in planetary albedo and the concurrent decline in cloudiness have emphasized
the importance of clouds and their variations to global climate variability and change. A change of 1- 2
percent in global cloud cover has a greater radiative impact on the climate than the direct radiative effect
of doubling CO2. ”
Nevertheless, the authors have not tried to relate reduced albedo, detected by CERES, to global temperatures, e.g. Spencer’s UAH. This is like a “sin of omission”. Dr. Nikolov and Dr. Zeller have done so, and found that all warming since year 2000 is due to reduced albedo. GHG have had no influence. See:
https://www.mdpi.com/2673-7418/4/3/17
Maybe all warming since 1980, when satellites began to measure global cloud cover, is due to reduced cloud cover, see Nelson & Nelson https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation?paperid=131993
Since CO2 seems to have no measurable influence, it is time to look for an alternative climate paradigm, see:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/386573736_Toward_a_New_Theoretical_Paradigm_of_Climate_Science
Go send this info to Gov. Gavin N. of CA and Gov. Kathy of NY before they wreck the economies of these states.
And Gov. Healey of Wokeachusetts.
And Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney, please.
Dr. Spencer makes some excellent points, but his views on CO2 warming are frankly, irrational. First he says;
“it’s not even known how much of that (long-term) warming is due to human greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions”. Good so far. In other words, the percentage could be anywhere from 0.01% to 100%. In other words, we plain just don’t know. But the Null Hypothesis puts the burden of proof on those claiming “all or most”, and so far, no one has done that, because they can’t. But then he makes his great illogical leap to saying “Yes, recent warming is likely mostly due to increasing CO2 in the atmosphere” Errrr?. Come again? .That is Belief talking, not science.
Good point about the inconsistency. To be fully consistent about the climate system response to incremental CO2: NO ONE KNOWS, by any reliable means, that the response differs from zero. That’s it. No waffling.
And also, I appreciate your emphasis on the valid null hypothesis. That null hypothesis can be stated this way: Earth’s longwave emitter to space is not de-rated by rising pCO2, so as to require a higher temperature interface between the ocean and land surfaces and the overlying atmosphere to maintain output. That null hypothesis has not been falsified.
“NO ONE KNOWS, by any reliable means, that the response differs from zero.”
None of the data being used is sufficiently accurate (i.e. its measurement uncertainty) to identify the differences that climate science is attempting to find. The data is simply not fit for purpose.
I concur. The ‘reversal’ of the null hypothesis by the alarmist community is probably one of the greatest travesties that has ever been taken place within the physical sciences. One could easily take one of the EPA’s real pollutants, say SO2, and it would take all of about 5 minutes, using real data, to reject the null that ’emissions of SO2 are harmless’. The same can not be said about CO2 because there is no evidence that it affects the Earth’s climate in any way, and, at the same time there is a preponderance of evidence that it has benign effects on the abundance of the biosphere. Hopefully, Dr Ross McKittrick, a bona-fide econometrician, could point this out to the EPA.
To your other point re. Dr Spencer’s views on CO2-driven warming, he, as I’ve pointed out elsewhere, shares this trait with everyone else on the ‘red team’, because most, if not all, ‘main stream’ skeptics are fully on board with the premise that radiative transfer models, based on Schwarzschild’s equation, accurately portray the physics of how thermal energy emitted by the Earth’s surface is conveyed to space. Unfortunately, this means that any short-term political success in recinding the EPA’s Endangerment Finding will only be reversed by the next Democrat administration.
…… which, by virtue of the democrats having no party platform other than orangemanbad, abjectly pathetic leadership (a lack of any kind of credible leadership, in fact), combined with some stellar potential leadership from Vance and/or Gabbard, might be at least 11 years away.
I hope you’re right, but I’ve learned to never underestimate the Left’s unique ability to emotionally rally their supporters to actually vote against their own best interests. Case in point, how many times, if any, have citizens in deep-blue cities with horrendous public schools and dangerous streets ever voted out the Democrat regimes that have held sway in these cities for decades?
Totally agree, I live in one, albeit in a very nice part of one.
It should be “anywhere from 0.0% to 100%” since “none” or “zero” are possible answers to “How much?”
‘(2) it’s not even known how much of that warming is due to human greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions’ That says it all.
I am going to see what Grok has to say.
Grok believes that it is almost 100% manmade.
But Grok is almost 100% manmade.
It is programmed by arrogant people who think humans are intelligent.
Clever yes; intelligent ~ not so much !!
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” George Carlin
Give thanks to whatever deities you favor that half of them are not THAT stupid.
It’s not the stupid ones you have to worry about, it’s evil ones, stupid or otherwise.
Did you press Grok to defend any of its assertions? AI has a poor record in being able to defend its initial claims.
Ask better questions and use the ‘thinking’ mode. Make it construe an argument against GHG effect..
Grok regurgitated scientific garbage on the web… so what !
Its just a glorified search engine, ffs !!
Grok say to ask Ug. Grok busy hunting last mammoth on planet.
“to see what Grok has to say.”
Why.????..
Why not?
Because the AI LLMs are trained on the consensus belief, not facts. As I have discovered and shared here, at least ChatGPT and Copilot readily back down when challenged on things that are poorly supported or contradicted by other studies. The AI assertions are more a reflection of the status quo beliefs than facts.
If you want waste your time with regurgitated dribble…. your call.
Not sure if saving the world is what is being progressed Roy?
As the saying goes the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
The fixation with climate and the induced scare mongering that has evolved to focus peoples attention on the subject is I am sure well intentioned but the impact on children’s mental health, on reliable energy provision, on nature with massive clearance to house wind parks and solar parks. Parks that deliver barely 10% of the plated capacity incidentally. When those outcomes are the real impact of false anxiety projection, then it is time we reset who makes the public policy decisions. Al Gore and friends and those who have been involved this past thirty years have not serves the public interest at all.
As a realist an as an engineer, I sleep easy at night knowing the scale of concerns broadcast daily by the BBC and others is grossly overblown.
We need to keep informing the public what is the truth and what is pure fear mongering.
Keep up the good work, we need as many like you inside the tent as we can muster.
“The fixation with climate and the induced scare mongering that has evolved to focus peoples attention on the subject is I am sure well intentioned”
I came to the opposite conclusion. It is malicious and hateful.
“the U.S. Government has spent $120-$160 Billion on climate change research”
That’s an incredible amount of loot for research and still the science isn’t settled. How many billions did Einstein get for his far more sophisticated research? NONE. He got zero $.
I haven’t read the report in total as yet, but your commentary here is pretty good. I only have two disagreements, or fallacies to point towards:
1) you state you would not buy an EV unless it could deliver you 920 miles in 14 hours. No ICE vehicle can do that while adhering to the speed limit and accounting for refueling and meal and bathroom breaks. Most ICE vehicles have a range between 200-400 miles before refueling is needed. And driving 14 hours straight is simply not feasible unless you want to have potential accident due to fatigue. But I get your point, that EV’s do not compare at all to the ease of refueling and energy density of an ICE vehicle.
2) more important than my nitpicking about ICE range, is at the end when you say “And what higher calling can there be than to Save the Earth?” That attitude can and does almost always lead to a psychological disorder loosely termed “The Messiah Syndrome”. Where if you believe you are saving the earth, you can justify abandoning truth, morals, and achieve your goals by any means necessary – because of that belief in a “higher calling” or purpose. It is an extremely dangerous path to go down and almost always leads to the bearer of that Messiah Syndrome or view that you are here to Save the Earth becoming unbalanced in the least or outright evil at the worst. (or simply serving an evil purpose by being a useful idiot)
Best to set aside the absurd notion of your position or cause is to Save the Earth, and be humble and take the view your works are but a small cog in the wheel of humanity. (believing that your cause is to Save the Earth leads to fudging, nudging or outright lying if your results or analyses do not really support the narrative you believe is needed to Save The Earth)
(1) D Boss, you are clearly not from the U.S. Roy’s challenge to EVs is an average speed of about 66 mph. Many American highways have posted limits of 75 mph or higher, and practically nobody strictly observes those limits, typically cruising 5-7 mph above the limit without getting ticketed. That leaves over 2 hours for fueling, rest stops and unanticipated slowdowns (e.g., road construction; accidents; small towns). When our children were young and still at home, we annually drove from various points in Texas to campsite in Estes Park, CO (a similar distance) in about that time with no unsafe driver fatigue. We drove either a Chevy Suburban or Tahoe with a range of over 500 miles on a tank of gas.
(2) I was puzzled about how to interpret Roy’s last statement. I took it to be a bit tongue-in-cheek given the obsessive societal abuse of children’s minds and hearts over environmental issues. Notice the “TM” at the end of capitalized “Save the Earth.”
I do live in the US, and only major highways or turnpikes have the higher speed limit. And a Tahoe or Suburban can have as low as 280 mile to as high as 400 mile range leaving approx 6 gallons in the tank for fuel beneath the pickup and a safety margin. (my Chevy Express van with a 30 gallon tank starts sputtering around corners when it reaches 6.5 gallons remaining) This is based upon published values for highway fuel economy and fuel tank size, but the models have a large range depending on weight, 2WD or 4WD, and engine sizes. The Tahoe and Suburban have tanks of 20 or 24 or 28 gallon sizes depending on model, etc.
As to a single driver going for 14 hours, well the regulations for truck drivers say they can only be behind the wheel for a max of 11 hours in any 14 hour period, and must have 10 hours off between driving stints. The reason is fatigue. Driving tired is actually worse than driving while tipsy as to reaction times and concentration.
So I stand by my assertion that this 900 miles in 14 hours is not a good metric for an ICE vehicle, but I do accept the notion that no EV can come close to competing with the range and time to travel large distances of an ICE vehicle.
As to the Save the Earth notion, I did not see the possibility he was being satirical or sarcastic and no the “TM” did not register in my feeble brain so you may be right about that being tongue and cheek or outright satire.
It also relies heavily on the Precautionary Principle. We must act now to insure that a POSSIBLE, and quite likely with a very small probability, adverse event will not occur.
I think that most people misunderstand the Precautionary Principle. Given a choice between two (or more) future paths, assuming a negligible difference in cost, one should choose the path that takes into account the potential problems of ‘business as usual.’ It is NOT justification for spending billions of dollars to research the problems or turning the economy on its head based on an ambiguous could, might, or may.
No, you have misstated the precautionary principle. Whether you take the Wingspan version or any other widely used version, it does NOT look at choices between two paths with a negligible difference in cost. Rather, it says that unless you can prove that an activity has no chance of causing (supposedly) irreversible negative changes, you cannot do it. Obviously, the principle in practice would destroy civilization so it is used more loosely.
I have suggested an alternative: The Proactionary Principle. Short version here:
https://www.extropy.org/proactionaryprinciple.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proactionary_principle
As i keep saying: right next to the office of Precautionary principle is the office of Unintended Consequences.
And to add: isnt it precautious to balance cause and effect, weighing the pros and cons of each action especially where policy is concerned?
The uncertainty principle ruels. That’s why the warmunistas insist on it (the science) being certain and constantly push the panic button.
I hope that the “save the Earth” conclusion was tongue-in-cheek. If not, I agree with you that such a view is dangerous and ridiculous. The Earth does not need saving. A savior posture gives you permission to override people’s rights and all other values. No thanks.
“I am NOT the savior!” “Only the true savior would deny that he’s a savior.”
“Alright I AM the messiah!! Now F*** OFF!!”
-Brian
My wife, my 2 step daughters, and I drove from Virginia to Western Washington state in 3 days. That was with me driving our F250 with a fifth-wheel trailer attached, my wife driving a 25ft U-Haul truck, and the kids driving their own cars. We did about that exact distance per day, and it didn’t take 14 hours per day.
Thanks for the historical info, it was enjoyable. Although the IPCC is one of the worst entities in all of this, the socialist underpinnings of the UN Environment Programme must also be understood as the beginning force of using the environment to achieve socialist goals, including weaponization of climate science. UNEP is still at it today and mostly slips under the radar.
How about UN COP? It is another UN organization designed for wealth transfer from the rich countries to the poor countries to help them cope with global warming and climate change.
Which is it? It can’t be both — “causes” or “likely mostly due”.
And you cannot know either from available data, regardless of how much they have been “adjusted”.
Yeah, hopefully they’ll just get rid of that entire garabge sentence in the final draft….
…adjusted, homogenizes, and pasteurized!. Go to BoM in Oz and check out ACORN-SAT. There is file that list the adjustments for all the weather stations. There is file that explains the reasons and justification for making the adjustments.
I’m trying to imagine the Climate Liar’s 5-person blue ribbon team going up against our 5-person current team (I think we could do better, but no matter), and who they’d pick to be on it. LiarMann, of course, but who else? Hayhoe, Hansen, Schmidt, and Santer perhaps. Then imagine a public debate between the two teams, and the humiliating defeat of the Blue (LIars) Team. It would be epic.
But of course they’d never agree to it because in addition to being liars, they are cowards. Oh well.
That implies that they also know that they would lose or else they would be willing to engage.
Right. None of those listed for the blue team would deign to be in the same room with the red team.
The second and third to the last paragraph are great insights into human nature and thinking. In the area of climate science, it is very hard to be scientific, and many, many scientists fail at it.
Red Team Blue Team? Okay, let’s examine that. The Blue Team spends public money like water, $trillions, on non-functional krapola. The Blue Team demands we huddle in the cold and dark in mud huts while we starve to death. The Blue Team especially wants to starve Africans, the poor, women, and children. They murder babies and chop them up, ostensibly to “save the planet”. The Blue Team defaces buildings, statues, art galleries, and their precious EV’s all the while claiming the destruction is “speech”. They actually hate free speech and seek to cancel, censor, and fire bomb the Red Team. Riots, arson and looting are favored tactics of the Blue Team.
The Red Team does none of these things. We maintain the issue is one of science and seek rational discussion and discourse. We are non-violent.
It’s not a fair fight. It’s the civilized verses the uncivilized, the ethical verses the unethical, the rational verses the irrational. Sadly, the authors of the Red Team report now have to watch their backs. The long knives are out. The “comment docket” will be a snarling maelstrom of hatred. The wolves are at the door.
Kudos for your bravery and integrity, Dr. Spencer. We stand with you, perhaps not on all the minutia of the report, but definitely in this war for the fate of civilization.
re “ Every environmental scientist I have ever met believes Nature is fragile.” I’m an old, retired engineer who has traveled and lived in many places. It’s been my observation that if you stand in one place long enough, “Nature” will soon overcome you.
You do not want tick off Mother Nature or she will whack you with hurricanes, tornadoes, rain, thunder, dust, snow, ice and hail storms, heat and cold waves, swarms of vicious biting, stinging, and blood-sucking creatures and earthquakes.
Mommy Nature will do all of this regardless of your opinion on things.
That plays into why (in my opinion) Materials Science is making more progress than most other ‘sciences.’ When one sets out to make a new superconductor or a more efficient solar cell, it either meets the goals or it doesn’t. One doesn’t have to wait decades to be able to say that something works as predicted or not. There is little need for saying it ‘could’ work. “Either it works or it doesn’t.”
The belief that CFC’s damaged ozone was based on nothing more than a model. There was never any real world evidence to support the belief. In the 40 years since CFCs were banned, real world evidence has accumulated.
That evidence proves that CFCs do not destroy ozone.
The “ozone hole” (misnamed) could not even be measured until the mid-20th century.
I was at UC Irvine in the early 1970s when Prof. F. S Rowland conducted experiments on the effects of CFCs on ozone when the gases were under the illumination of UV light.
You do not know what you are taking about. Cough up the papers that show CFCs do not destroy ozone in the upper atmosphere.
He doesn’t need to. Ozone is created by the action of energy in sunlight on oxygen molecules. Rowland, like GHE believers, was simply misguided.
About as misguided as thinking that because it can be demonstrated that CO2 is heavier than air in the laboratory, this means that CO2 will accumulate at the bottom of the atmosphere, and we are all therefore dead.
Are you sure you know what you are talking about?
It’s worth considering the impact of the Fall of the Berlin Wall on the politicisation of science.
From WW2 to 1989, science (with engineering) was seen as vital to keeping up with the Axis Power and then the Soviet Union / Warsaw Pact.
The impact of science on the Allied victory in 1945 was largely secret but obviously immense. Not just the Manhattan Program but also the invention of computing to crack Enigma and all those aeronautics and RADAR refinements. The men in the white coats were essential to wining the war (and some women too).
After WW2 the western states kept funding science because they feared falling behind the reds, just as Germany had a lead in many fields in the 1930s. Sputnik showed that their fears were not unreasonable. And the CCCP kept making very big bombs.
So academia was well funded. Elite universities got to build whatever they wanted to save the West. And every reasonable sized city got a university to find and train up our backroom boffin brigade.
Then we won the Cold War. The Berlin wall was breached. Ukraine, the Baltic States and the Warsaw pact states were liberated.
Victory!
And our reward was a Peace Dividend.
Finally, we could cut back on defence spending – more funding for infrastructure or social care or tax cuts to stimulate wealth generation (in democracies, we get to choose out political aims).
So if we could cut the Army and Navy, why not the funding of universities? It seems like we would, no?
So academia needed a new foe to fight. Something they could point at that was as great a threat to the West as International Communism. Who could that be?
No Political opponent was plausible. The USA was the only superpower. Fukuyama was talking about the End of History. 911 was a decade away…
But the Maggie Thatcher was talking about the End of the World. That was a good excuse for closing the UK coal industry on petty party political grounds (the mining unions were strong and Maggie hated worker power), especially since Chernobyl made nuclear politically unacceptable too.
The End of the World is also a good excuse for funding universities.
Without AGW, why would we be pumping so much money into academia? Industry funds what it needs (or buys it from India). And it’s obvious that the rate of scientific advance has declined since WW2.
In the 21st century, most universities would not exist – as anything but arts colleges – without environmentalism.
That is probably the one of the most damaging statements about “Climate Science” that I’ve come across. It’s saying the a large portion of “Climate Scientists” have completely forgotten how to do science. I would have thought that the story of Trofim Lysenko would be better known.
As for models, a well know (at least to EE’s) engineer, Bob Pease made many comments about SPICE, the most common circuit simulation software, lying and circuits are much easier to simulate than climate. To be fair, much of the “lying” is due to the model not taking into account inductive and capacitive coupling between circuit elements, which corresponds to GCM’s not taking small scale weather events (e.g. thunderstorms) into account.
Your statement implies they were trying to do science in the first place.
Reminds me of my first impression of John Holdren after listening to him giving a talk in 1976. He came across as an advocate claiming to be a scientist in that he came across as arriving at a conclusion and picking his data to support his conclusion.
Its not even obvious that GCM’s take into account all LARGE scale weather events.
Believers in String Theory aren’t trying to de-industrialize and demonize the West. That’s the difference.
By far one of the most inane arguments forwarded in this rushed hack job of a report. Most of the adverse effects of climate change are not predicted to be felt for more than a decade, some not until later in the century.
This is true. The IPCC says that negative impacts from climate change are not expected to be detectable until the latter half of the 21st century.
As AlanJ rightly points out. We have no evidence for adverse effects of climate change, today. And nor do we expect there to be any adverse effects of climate change until way beyond the period that any plausible economic or technology forecast can possibly be made.
In short, AlanJ should be listened to.
AGW is not a crisis. AlanJ is right about that.
AGW is not a problem now. AlanJ is right about that.
And AGW is not predicted to be a problem at all, until the uncertainties in any predictions overwhelm any predicted downsides. AlanJ is right about that too.
AlanJ is right about this. AGW is not a problem.
Well said MC.. No current evidence of this mythical “climate change™”
All negative impacts are fantasies in Nostra-dumbass climate models.
AGW is not possible because the vast majority of humans live in poverty. They consume little and produce little stuff of value.
The IPCC explicitly says that negative impacts are already detectable and growing. There is little evidence that “benefits outweigh the harm.” My point is that even granting this premise (which is not true) the argument falls apart.
Thank you.
Correction, the IPCC says that negative impacts are not seen yet and are not predicted to be seen until the latter part of the 21st century.
Here is the reference: IPCC AR6 WG1 Chapter 12 Table 12.12.
Link to the IPCC report is here:
https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar6/wg1/chapter/chapter-12/
It’s good that you come here. You can learn from those who know more about the subject than you do. Which you cannot do at alarmist fundraising sites.
The first thing you can learn is that, when discussing what the IPCC explicitly says, you should reference it. Otherwise, those who DO know what the IPCC explicitly says will point out your error, and then your credibility is harmed on other matters of import too.
12.1 Framing
Climate change is already resulting in significant societal and environmental impacts and will induce major socio-economic damages in the future.
Ah, but to complete your quote, that refers to (AR5 WGII).
And yet AR6 WG2 agrees with me (Chapter 1, page 5).
“Climate change impacts are concurrent and interact with other significant societal changes that have become more salient since AR5, including a growing and urbanising global population; significant inequality and demands for social justice; rapid technological change; continuing poverty, land and water degradation, biodiversity loss; food insecurity; and a global pandemic.”
And (IPCC, 2018b; Box 1.1 covers the environmental changes in the same way.
So the climate change impacts are confounded with real impacts that can be observed.
And it’s not expected that anything will be clarified until much later in the century.
This is not a crisis.
“land and water degradation”
Somehow the climate alarmists don’t understand that increased CO2 leading to increased agricultural outputs mean *less* land and water degradation because less land is needed to produce required supplies, less fertilizer is required as well for the same output, and that water usage is minimized.
It’s all part and parcel with Freeman Dyson’s criticism of climate science today and its “models”. They are not holistic at all. They don’t consider the real world as a whole. They look at one piece and shout “Tradition” like Teyve in “Fiddler on the Roof”. Only their “Tradition” is based not on tradition but on what they were born under – an increasing trend in some statistical descriptor of an intensive property that can’t be truly averaged let alone measured accurately enough to support their trend!
As “MCourtney” posted while I was logging in, your “quote” is incomplete.
The complete first paragraph of section 12.1 of the AR6 WG-I assessment report (on page 1773), with the end of the third paragraph added as a “bonus” :
.
The way each IPCC “document cycle” works is that assessment reports are released in the following order :
1) WG-I, “The Scientific Basis”
2) WG-II, “Adaptation”
3) WG-III, “Mitigation”
4) Synthesis Report (SYR)
So the WG-I authors were unable to reference the (unreleased at that point in time) AR6 WG-II report and had to fall back on the AR5 version instead for their references / citations.
OK, so what was (and probably still is ?) the “mindset” of the IPCC’s Working Group Two set of authors back in the 2019-to-2021 timeframe ?
In section C.3.1, on page 26 of the SPM of the AR6 WG-II report :
Definitions
(A / N) CC = (Anthropogenic / Natural) Climate Change
IPCC : CC = NCC plus ACC (see “Glossary” Annex)
UNFCCC : CC = ACC, and only ACC ;
NCC = the separate “climate variability attributable to natural causes”
So WG-II abandons the IPCC definition of “Climate Change” used by WG-I, the “Scientific” group, in favour of the UNFCCC definition instead.
.
How about the changes in the overall WG-II approach between AR5 (2013) and AR6 (2022) ?
We now have access to the AR6 WG-II assessment report, which helpfully summarises these changes in section 1.1.4, “What is New in the History of Interdisciplinary Climate Change Assessment”, on page 131 :
The AR6 WG-I report summarised what had “already been detected” by the IPCC group of scientists — in 2019/2020 — in Table 12.12.
The IPCC said absolutely nothing whatsoever about whether the “detected” changes would be negative, positive or neutral (an option “binary / black-and-white thinkers” usually don’t even consider).
About a year ago (?) Roger Pielke Jr. reorganised the subject lines of Table 12.12 taking into account how the “counterfactual” / worst-case RCP8.5 emissions pathway would affect “detection” timing (see image file attached to the end of this post).
When, precisely, does the IPCC “explicitly say” that changes in trends for any of the hydrological, agricultural or ecological versions of “drought” became “detectable” ?
How about changes in “tropical cyclone” / hurricane frequency and/or intensity ?
How about for “marine heatwaves” ?
.
Tell that to Richard Tol, up to anomalies of 3 or 4°C at least.
Tell Bjorn Lomborg that there aren’t better ways of allocating resources / money than to people claiming to “stop climate change / Save The Planet”.
NB : ” The semi-anonymous Internet poster ‘AlanJ’ makes the bald assertion that ‘X is (not) true’ ” does not equal “X is true (/ false)”.
“Thank you.”
You think any reader would not notice you were being “hoisted by your own petard”?
We have heard the “just wait, in ten years” for more than 30 years. How many more decades are we going to hear “just wait, in ten years”. It’s just like the guy on the corner every day with the sign saying “Beware, the world ends tomorrow”.
The things that scientists have projected are happening on track with projections. You are keeping yourself willfully blind to what is happening, but that’s on you, not on scientists.
You make a bold assertion without any evidence. Provide one example. If you can’t you’re being willfully obtuse.
Exactly. References please AlanJ.
Please don’t just send links that don’t support what you just said. People on this site will know you’re lying without even clicking on them. It’s what you do.
CLIMATE SCIENTISTS predicted polar bear extinction. Didn’t happen.
CLIMAE SCIENTISTS predicted Himalaya glaciers would melt by now, hasn’t happened yet.
CLIMATE SCIENTISTS predicted failures of global corn crops due to high temperatures would happen by now. Hasn’t happened yet.
Climate SCIENTISTS have predicted all sorts of negative consequences would happen in the past 30 years from CO2 growth in the atmosphere. None have come true. The predictions just get moved out year after year after year.
Roy gives too much credit to the EPA for environmental improvement. Improvements were already underway by the time the EPA was formed. As people get wealthier, they are more able and eager to pay for a cleaner environment. I see government getting inappropriate credit in many areas where they step in regulate in an already-improving situation.
Very nice Dr.Spencer.
Good to read a sensible assessment of ‘climate change’ but surely underpinning a lot of the perceived warming is a range of weather stations that was not designed for what it’s output is now being used to try to justify? Every airport and airstrip has a weather station to provide important data for pilots – most are completely unsuitable for providing long term weather data. It is not just the increase in air traffic, the change to jet engines that have compromised them but many have short lives. London’s Heathrow Airport was a field post war and permanent buildings did not arrive to the 60s. It now has 5 terminals and 2 runways.
Studies have also shown how the urban heat island has boosted temperatures and especially with increased night time minimums. Development even affects stations out of cities. Until a proper look at the global data is carried out it is hard to claim any increase due to human carbon dioxide.
I live in Calgary, Canada. The city very helpfully shows an urban heat map showing where summer daytime temperatures are most like to spike. They don’t realize that they also show the area of the airport (our long term thermometer site of record) is about 10K warmer than the surrounding fields (that were once how it was sited – a farm with records going back to 1882).
The airport is in the northeast quadrant, the yellow areas up/right from Stony Trail (a major regional ring road) are fields that are what the airport site looked like until about 1980.
https://www.calgary.ca/environment/resources/urban-heat-map.html
“Yes, Increasing CO2 Causes a Warming Tendency in the Climate System… So What?”
This is the most important take away from his statement. So much bluster out there over something we will never be able to do something about that will have a noticeable change on anything. The cure is worse than the disease.
His next comment about tribalism appears accurate based on the comments in here. Everyone has their reasons for the positions they take, fine. However…
The general public have more important things to worry about. The “independents” as he calls themselves will resonate more with the masses (the ones that decide elections) because what they pose sounds reasonable. Most do not follow people that run around in circles waving their arms over their heads regardless of the tribe they reside in.
The alarmist wing isn’t going to just ride off into the sunset. They will find another pretty face that will promise to give everyone someone else’s stuff and that resonates more than “follow the science”. The alarmist wing is very well funded and that can sway elections. And that pretty face will put everything back the way it was. Better to be reasonable than to be fringe if you hope to preserve these wins, and I believe they are huge wins.