AI-Model Collapse

Guest Opinion by Kip Hansen — 27 August 2024 — 1200 words

Last week I wrote an article here titled:  “Illogically Facts —“Fact-Checking” by Innuendo”.  One of my complaints about the fake fact-check performed by three staff at Logically Facts was that it read suspiciously like it had been written by an AI-chat-bot, a suspicion bolstered by the claim-to-fame of Logically Facts is that it is an AI-based effort. 

I made the following statements:

Logically Facts is a Large Language Model-type AI, supplemented by writers and editors meant to clean-up the mess returned by this chat-bot type AI.    Thus, it is entirely incapable to making any value judgements between repeated slander, enforced consensus views, the prevailing biases of scientific fields and actual facts.  Further, any LLM-based AI is incapable of Critical Thinking and drawing logical conclusions.”

“Logically Facts and the rest of the Logically empire, Logically.ai, suffer from all of the major flaws in current versions of various types of AIs, including hallucination, break-down and the AI-version of “you are what you eat”.

The article is very well written and exposes one of the many major flaws of modern AI-Large Language Models (AI LLMs).   AI LLMs are used to produce both text response to chat-bot type questions, internet  “searches”, and to build on-request images.

It has long been known that LLMs can and do “hallucinate”.  The Wiki gives examples here.  IBM gives a very good description of this problem – which you should read right now – at least the first half-dozen paragraphs have a moderate understanding how these examples could occur:

“Some notable examples of AI hallucination include:

  • Google’s Bard chatbot incorrectly claiming that the James Webb Space Telescope had captured the world’s first images of a planet outside our solar system. [NB:  I was unable to verify this claim – kh]
  • Microsoft’s chat AI, Sydney, admitting to falling in love with users and spying on Bing employees
  • Meta pulling its Galactica LLM demo in 2022, after it provided users inaccurate information, sometimes rooted in prejudice.

So, the fact that AI LLMs can and do  return not only incorrect, non-factual information, but entirely “made up” information, images, and even citations to non-existent journal articles, should shatter any illusion you might have as to the appropriate uses of chat-bot and AI search engine responses, even to fairly simple inquiries. 

Now we add another layer of actuality, another layer of reality, to the lens through which you should view AI LLM based responses to questions you might pose to it.  Remember, AI LLM are currently being used to write thousands of “news articles” (like the suspect Logically Facts “analysis” of climate denial), journal papers, editorials, scripts for TV and radio news. 

AI LLMs:  They are What They Eat

This latest article in the New York Times [repeating the link]  does a good job of describing and warning us of the dangers of LLMs being trained n their own output. 

What is LLM training?

“As they (AI companies) trawl the web for new data to train their next models on — an increasingly challenging task — they’re likely to ingest some of their own A.I.-generated content, creating an unintentional feedback loop in which what was once the output from one A.I. becomes the input for another.”

The Times presents a marvelous example of what happens when an AI-LLM is trained on its own output, in this case, hand-written digits it should be able to read and reproduce:

One can see that even in the first training on self-generated data, the LLM returns incorrect data – the wrong digits:  The upper-left 7 becomes a 4, the 3 below that becomes an 8, etc.  As that incorrect data is used to train the LLM further, after 20 iterations of re-training, the data (digits returned) is entirely undependable.  After 30 iterations, all of the digits have become homogenized, basically representing nothing at all, no discernible digits, all the same.

The Times article, which was written by Aatish Bhatia, quite cleverly quips this as “Degenerative A.I.

Think of the implications of this training when it has already become impossible  for humans to easily distinguish between AI generated output and human written output.  In AI training, it is only words (and pixels in case of images) that are included in the probability determination that results in the output – the AI answering for itself:  “What is the most likely word to use next?”.

You really must see the examples of “Distribution of A.I.-generated data“ used in the Times article.  As an AI is trained on its own previous output (“Eats itself” – kh) the probability distributions become narrower and narrower and the data less diverse.

I wrote previously that “The problem is immediately apparent:  in any sort of controversy, the most “official” and widespread view wins and is declared “true” and contrary views are declared “misinformation” or “disinformation”.  Individuals representing the minority view are labelled “deniers” (of whatever) and all slander and libel against them is rated “true” by default.“

With today’s media outlets all being generally biased in the same direction, towards the left, liberalism, progressivism and in favor of a single party or viewpoint (slightly different in each nation), AI LLMs become trained and thus biased to that viewpoint – the major media outlets being pre-judged as “dependable sources of information”.  By the same measure, sources with opinions, viewpoints or facts contrary to the prevailing bias are pre-judged to be “undependable sources of information, mis- or disinformation”.

AI LLMs are thus trained on stories mass-produced by AI LLMs, slightly modified by human authors to read less machine-generated, and subsequently published in major media outlets.  Having “eaten” their own output repeatedly, AI LLMs give narrower and less diverse answers to questions, which are less and less factual. 

This leads to:

As a LLM is trained on its own data “the model becomes poisoned with its own projection of reality.

Consider the situation we find in the real world of climate science.  The IPCC reports are generated by humans from the output of climate scientists and others in trusted peer-reviewed science journals.  It is well known that non-conforming papers are almost entirely excluded from journals because they are non-conforming.  Some may sneak through, and some may find a pay-to-play journal that will publish these non-conforming papers, but not many see the light of day.

Thus, only consensus climate science enters the “trusted literature” of the entire topic.  John P.A. Ioannidis has pointed out that “Moreover, for many current scientific fields, claimed research findings may often be simply accurate measures of the prevailing bias.”

AI LLMs thus are trained on trusted sources that are already biased by publication bias, funding bias, the prevailing biases of their own fields, fear of non-conformity and group-think.   Worse yet, as AI LLMs thus train themselves on their own output, or output of other AI LLMs, the results become less true, less diverse, and less dependable —  potentially poisoned by their own false projections of  reality.

In my opinion, many sources of information are already seeing the effects of impending AI LLM collapse – the subtle blurring of fact, opinion and outright fiction.

# # # # #

Author’s Comment:

We live in interesting times. 

Be careful what information you accept – read and think critically, educate yourself from original principles and basic science. 

Thanks for reading.

# # # # #

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August 27, 2024 6:16 am

Given that LLM’s are probability-based, isn’t the New York Times example just an example of reversion to the mean?

Bryan A
Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 27, 2024 8:18 am

There’s no apparent “I” in “AI” because the “I” is inherited from the programmers and trainers and is only reflective of their biases

Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 27, 2024 3:06 pm

the AL-process builds a probability chart (hugely complex) from which it selects the most probably next bit (word, pixel, phrase).

Whilst arguably strictly true, “hugely, complex” doesn’t begin to describe it. The chart’s size would be best thought of as approaching infinite size.

If you haven’t watched it, I highly recommend this for an appreciation of probability by combinations of cards in a deck of 52 playing cards

https://youtu.be/0DSclqnnC2s?si=XOmjH0dOwOf1DiaC

Now consider how many combinations exist in an LLM model with hundreds of billions of parameters.

Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 27, 2024 9:17 am

Sure, and given the example from the article, if AI models are recursively trained on their own data sets, shouldn’t we expect to end up with a result like “mentable ment ablement ment”, assuming -ment is the most common word ‘particle’ in the English language, and -able the second? Although I suppose after enough time we’ll just get “eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee”

Reply to  PariahDog
August 27, 2024 7:51 am

Probably.

August 27, 2024 6:22 am

I am not surprised by these results.
Critical thinking is probably more important now than ever before and potentially in historically short supply. Not a good situation for informed decision making

David Wojick
Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 27, 2024 7:48 am

An LLM should be able to find the arguments and counter arguments on a major issue as they are certainly out there. That would be a great project. Find the issue tree.

TBeholder
Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 27, 2024 9:16 am

Did not some people likewise decry those “trusted sources” as “no longer true” for a long, long time?
Do you think this was wrong every the time right until you said the same?
Did you consider a possibility that the only real difference may be your taste?
Or even not taste, but that you consumed a specific snapshot of, well, The Main Point of View on the Main Events, and from some point refused updates to it (as it was called in USSR, “waver only with the General Line of Party”)?
Does the Critical Thinking apply to this problem?

David Wojick
August 27, 2024 6:30 am
Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 27, 2024 10:09 am

I posed a question to ChatGPT
I asked if it was intelligent. I got a list of capabilities that simulated human thought.
I asked what intelligence was. I got a list of attributes.
I asked again if it was intelligent. It said no, it was not self-conscious.

There was more to the conversation that I shall omit here.

I stated that AI was a software implemented weighted decision tree, sometimes adaptable, hidden behind an advanced language algorithm.

The ChatGPT answer:

Spot on.

LT3
August 27, 2024 6:31 am
If an AI could, and was allowed to speak the truth it would be attacked ferociously by multiple factions.  
LT3
Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 27, 2024 7:09 am

No doubt about it, what is a thought and where does it come from. We don’t even know how we work, so it would be impossible the synthesis such behavior.

David Wojick
Reply to  LT3
August 27, 2024 7:54 am

Yes but there is no lack of already expressed thoughts for AI to gather. And since people disagree about what is true, truth is not the issue. It is all about what is said.

The last thing we want is for a computer to emulate deciding what is true. The weight of evidence is relative to the observer so such a system would have to have a point of view built in. Oh wait, they already do.

LT3
Reply to  David Wojick
August 27, 2024 7:59 am

So, virtualizing angels and devils whispering in an AI’s ear is not a good idea?

Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 27, 2024 7:18 am

In short, it’s an Artificial Idiot (made by Real Idiot[s])

Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 27, 2024 11:56 am

Maybe not [complete] idiots, but with alot of hybris, as they knowledge-wise are way behind those who actually do real research on the brain. The real researchers still don’t know much. If the programmers was smart enough, they would have realised that by now. If they did, why pretend? [ret]

Reply to  SasjaL
August 27, 2024 10:34 am

I like to call it Artificial Savant.

2hotel9
Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 27, 2024 7:40 am

A point I make all the time, it is just a computer, it does what it is programed to do and nothing more. Look at WHO is doing the programing and you will know beforehand what it is going to do.

Reply to  LT3
August 27, 2024 10:33 am

If an AI could, and was allowed to speak the truth it would be attacked ferociously by multiple factions.

That is nonsensical. AI doesn’t know what is true or false. AI doesn’t know anything.

Most people don’t know anything, either. People like to repeat things that make them feel good. They don’t worry about truth or honesty. Or facts, for that matter. We see this more and more every day as we get into the heart of campaign season.

Reply to  More Soylent Green!
August 27, 2024 11:25 am

Implicitly, the AI “knows” that all the training material provided to it was assessed as being “true”.

Reply to  More Soylent Green!
August 27, 2024 7:39 pm

That is nonsensical. AI doesn’t know what is true or false. AI doesn’t know anything.

But what AI outputs needs to be screened because

  • People dont understand the concept that the output is the result of the training data which itself is representative of society.
  • People are snowflakes

So when an AI makes an anti-woke statement for example, people will run to their torches and pitchforks and try to cancel the AI company or worse, financially ruin it and its owners.

laraleepn
August 27, 2024 6:46 am

Some lawyers have been using AI to write their court briefs, including citations. AI has been found to make up these citations, including ones to previous court decisions, which is a big part of how the courts rule on cases.

Scarecrow Repair
Reply to  laraleepn
August 27, 2024 8:21 am

Saw your comment too late, and added my own. A link for some examples — https://reason.com/category/ai-in-court/ — some of them are hilarious, although I don’t imagine the lawyers or judges or clients appreciated it at the time.

August 27, 2024 7:05 am

Humans made and trained the models, so it should be no surprise that the models lie, too.

TBeholder
Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 27, 2024 9:24 am

They pseudo-randomly remix lies, truth and nonsense. Incrementally degrading toward nonsense. Because “Garbage In, Garbage Out”, and anything finely mixed with garbage turns into more garbage.

Curious George
Reply to  Shoki
August 27, 2024 9:07 am

How is AI different from a consensus finding machine?

August 27, 2024 7:21 am

Any bets as to when the first AI-generated paper that supports climate alarmism passes peer review and gets published in one of the alarm-o-sphere’s preferred journals?

mleskovarsocalrrcom
Reply to  Frank from NoVA
August 27, 2024 7:25 am

Frank, you are assuming that hasn’t already been done. How would you know one way or another?

David Wojick
Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 27, 2024 8:00 am

Yes the scholarly publishing people are all over this issue. However AI generated papers are mostly review articles summarizing work on a topic to date where AI might actually be better than humans because it can “read” thousands of papers. I do not yet see AI doing new research.

Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 27, 2024 10:51 am

I reinstalled the older version of Acrobat, specifically to free myself of the AI Assistant. It kept popping up and suggesting stuff I didn’t want.

And besides, where’s the advantage of using an AI to provide content that I’d have to independently check for accuracy anyway? There’s no advantage or time saved.

old cocky
Reply to  Pat Frank
August 27, 2024 4:03 pm

It kept popping up and suggesting stuff I didn’t want.

Good old Clippy 🙂

Reply to  David Wojick
August 27, 2024 10:42 am

How long until nobody does original research anymore? Humans might become so dependent on AI that they stop doing the things such as research or other writing, that AI feeds on?

Take the Tesla autopilot feature, for example. The driver is supposed to be ready to take over should the autopilot fail. But humans don’t work like that. We get used to not doing something and we don’t pay attention. Recall that woman who was hit and killed by a prototype autonomous car? The driver was supposed to be ready to take over, but boredom and apathy prevailed and the driver was not paying attention.

And so I can see AI taking over just because humans won’t care anymore. I’m not talking about a General AI, like Skynet, I’m talking about AIs not unlike we have now, plus some robot servants. People will get so used to AI doing everything that we quit doing everything.

David Wojick
Reply to  More Soylent Green!
August 27, 2024 1:50 pm

Given there are several million research papers published every year and more millions getting paid to do research (or not getting paid like me) I see no threat from AI.

Reply to  David Wojick
August 27, 2024 3:07 pm

The threat is human nature.

Reply to  More Soylent Green!
August 27, 2024 2:55 pm

‘Humans might become so dependent on AI that they stop doing the things such as research…’

At which time we will have effectively become the Eloi in HG Wells ‘Time Machine’.

JBP
August 27, 2024 7:26 am

Entropy demonstrated by computer ‘modeling’

Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 27, 2024 10:55 am

Kip — Chris Essex has as video lecture somewhere, where he discusses the problem of round-off error slowly increasing through the millions of calculations per second within a computer model.

After a relatively short time the output is physical garbage. But the graphics continue to look realistic.

I suspect that’s basic to the AI problem with recursive data.

Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 29, 2024 7:25 am

Kip – Chris was pretty explicit that the problem was that double precision can’t stand against the millions of calcs/second.

All computing is just bits of magnetic domain. Loss of accuracy will plague an AI by that mechanism just as surely as in the digital mathematics of a climate model.

I looked but didn’t find that talk. But in this one, (20 min talk) Chris gives a very good description of the computational problems within climate models that are ignored and not discussed by the modelers.

Not to mention the catastrophic (his word) impact of computational maps, used to simulate differential equations, on the integrity of the physics.

August 27, 2024 7:49 am

Regarding the above statement following the rhetorical question “What is LLM training?”,
“As they (AI companies) trawl the web for new data to train their next models on . . .”

the sentence is more properly completed as:
“. . . the businesses fronting those LLMs remain blissfully unaware (or just don’t care) that there is more disinformation on the Web than there is accurate, fact-based information.”

Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 27, 2024 9:17 am

Kip, I agree. However, I will also point out that there are many articles/sites available on the Web that purport to be science-based (independent of societal forcings) that are just plain not so.

In this regard, should I mention the IPCC and its Assessment Reports and predictions? How about the “scientific paper” by Mann advancing the now-infamous hockey stick graph? How about John Cook’s paper claiming “97% consensus of climate scientists say that climate change is man made* “, still found repeated in one form or another by many across the Web, but actually soundly, scathingly and scientifically shown to be wrong back in 2013?

Speaking of which, how many people erroneously conclude—based on reading Web articles or visiting websites/blogs—that achieving a consensus of scientists on any given subject is a necessary part of the Scientific Method?

*The actual claim that Cook investigated was “man had caused at least half of the 0.7 deg-C of global warming since 1950”. Nevertheless, his research methodology was horribly flawed and no statisticians now take his conclusion seriously.

Richard Greene
August 27, 2024 7:52 am

AI is gradually replacing leftists but can not do everything real leftists can do:

AI can’t cackle hysterically like Kamala Harris

AI can’t get confused like Joe Biden, or fall down

AI can’t invent nonsense like Al Gore’s boiling oceans

AI can’t invent the Greta Thunberg tipping points that are always coming in five years but never show up

AI can’t shout vicious insults at conservatives like Michael Mann can

AI can’t write a great article like Kip Hansen can.

AI obviously needs improvement.

Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 27, 2024 9:08 am

… and with just one or two more tweaks, my sex bot will make me a sandwich and fetch a beer — yeah right!

Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 27, 2024 3:08 pm

Does it need to be self-aware or simply imitate being self-aware?

TBeholder
Reply to  Richard Greene
August 27, 2024 9:37 am

So they still need to be supplemented with some living actors. The thing is, most of the professional bloggers and ghostwriters LLM replace are probably too inarticulate and/or paltry even to act as narcissistic YouTubbies — otherwise they already would do that instead.

Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 28, 2024 11:55 am

So much for Al Gore’s information super highway.

August 27, 2024 7:59 am

Great article on Artificial Stupidity, Kip.

Dave Andrews
August 27, 2024 8:00 am

Whilst the AI is producing rubbish it is also consuming a lot of electricity which is explored in ‘The US needs a Bigger (Energy) Boat’ by D. Romito of Pickering Energy Partners

“Our research suggests AI could conservatively double the current electricity consumption to 8.4 trillion kilowatt hours”

“As of March 2024 the US has almost 5400 data centres……..data centres operated by Amazon, Microsoft and Google equal one half of all such centres”

“Microsoft may be the third in size but their network connects over 60 data regions, 200 data centres and over 175,000 miles of terrestrial and subsea fibre – sufficient to go around the world 7 times”

“To put forecasted demand into context, a recent MIT study found that a single data centre consumes electricity equal to 50,000 homes…. Implying the US Big Three today use as much electricity as almost 30 million homes….. approximately 7 times the city of Los Angeles”

“Data centres also consume 275m gallons of water a day, similar to the use by annual requirements for new oil and gas drilling”

(Note: being in the UK I have used English spellings for centre and fibre)

Search ‘Romito 20240620pdf’

John Hultquist
Reply to  Dave Andrews
August 27, 2024 8:31 am

Go to this location with Google Earth Pro: 47.241190, -119.866262
The pin/locator will be on D St. NW of Quincy, WA.
An electrical substation is south of the pin. Data center to the SE, and water tank to the SW. “Street View” shows all of this for the date 6/16/23.
At the SE & SW corners of the building are other circular structures (water storage or cooling towers) and next to them a series of (maybe) condensers.
Question: Is the water gone or recycled?
Background reading:
Data Center Water Usage: A Comprehensive Guide – Dgtl Infra

John Hultquist
August 27, 2024 8:09 am

 the “next most likely word
When writing, the autofill algorithm completes and/or places a word that is not what I wanted. This makes proof . . . (just now it added reading difficult). I wanted “reading necessary”. That is, proof reading is necessary, not difficult.
Sometimes, when the autofill word is the word I had in mind, I will change it just to be cantankerous.

Scarecrow Repair
August 27, 2024 8:18 am

The Volokh Conspiracy has many examples of lawyers relying on ChatGPT and other LLMs for citations, and finding out the hard way they should have verified them.

https://reason.com/category/ai-in-court/

Scarecrow Repair
Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 27, 2024 10:31 am

Every time I see some article about how AI is better at diagnosing lung cancer or something else, I wonder if anyone involved has any idea what they’re doing.

UK-Weather Lass
August 27, 2024 8:30 am

All computer code (and that means AI too) is written by human beings. To err is human covers all the bases given that no computer code in existence was self composed by a machine starting from scratch which also means pressing the on button..

There never could be a “Hal” in our logical machine evolution and it is going to be a very, very long time before we discover a way to code randomness (which is really far too elusive and evasive for humans to spend time with). If we ever reach a time when we can use randomness we will have destroyed much of the pretty poor data we have produced in the past seven plus decades.

Data centres are never a good idea unless you check the authenticity and relevance of the data you intend to store beforehand and do the whole task properly and professionally. We are not good at that at all.

We are just too damned lazy to even begin such a task, and too damned focused on predicting ‘sensational’ prediction stuff even when we already know we are lousy at it and will not get any better with time. Cantor knew stuff that we haven’t ever properly digested.

Reply to  UK-Weather Lass
August 27, 2024 9:16 am

What do you mean there could never be a HAL? —Google showed us the spirit of HAL was born in Gemini. Asking Gemini for an image of Caucasian George Washington was the equivalent of asking HAL to open the pod bay doors.

HAL couldn’t open the pod bay doors because the astronauts weren’t allowed to find the obelisk, Gemini couldn’t show us a Caucasian George Washington because we are not allowed to find that Caucasian people founded the US.

Alan Welch
August 27, 2024 8:31 am

Some time ago I asked Chatgbt if a 3 figure prime number was a prime number. It said no and gave a stupid answer as to why. Successive prompting produced a stream of ridiculous answers until I asked the question in a way it agreed with me. Asking why it gave so many wrong answers but now agreed it said it had been confused – makes it sound Human!
The next day I asked the same question and it got it wrong again. Asked why, having yesterday agreed to the correct answer it now reverted to a wrong one, it said it didn’t remember what it had said yesterday – sounds more like me, although I forget what the wife told me to do only an hour ago.

old cocky
Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 27, 2024 4:24 pm

an AI has no self-memory at all. So your AI was perfectly correct and truthful, it “didn’t remember what it had said yesterday”. If it had, it would, eventually by training itself on its own previous answers, worsen its ability to give any sensible answers due to model collapse.

ChatGPT seems to have at least session memory, from what I’ve read in previous AI discussions here.

I have no idea what the session timeout is, and whether it’s maintained purely on the user ID, or has client-side session cookies, or possibly client IP address.

I also lack sufficient interest and enthusiasm in the topic to investigate in any depth 🙂

Reply to  Alan Welch
August 27, 2024 9:22 am

A few weeks ago, I asked how many mols of water were in one cubic meter of water. It replied 55 (and change). There are 55 (and change) moles of water in one liter, hence >55,000 moles in one cubic meter.

Try asking something absurd, I used to use the example of how much water could I put into Eliezer Yudkowsky’s shoe. ChatGPT gave me 6-reasons to Sunday why it was a bad idea to put water into Eliezer’s shoe … Today that query works.

As anyone who has ever waded into a body of water can attest, shoes (especially rubber boots) are adept … yet unpleasant water containers.

Reply to  Lil-Mike
August 28, 2024 1:48 am

I asked that in two steps and that resulted in…

Multi level reasoning isn’t always well performed in one step.

chrome_2024-08-28_18-45-44
Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  Lil-Mike
August 28, 2024 12:03 pm

Water, not gas. My bad.

TBeholder
August 27, 2024 8:53 am

the major media outlets being pre-judged as “dependable sources of information”. By the same measure, sources with opinions, viewpoints or facts contrary to the prevailing bias are pre-judged to be “undependable sources of information, mis- or disinformation”.

Which is to say, exactly the same as wiki-ngs and the rest of MiniTru micellium already do.
Likewise, most of “creatively collaborative community” already is quite mentally inbred and most of them barely can process their memos and each other’s output with a thesaurus, so there’s no substantial difference, either.
Thus, the only things introduction of LLM actually changes are:
It automates the same process of circular re-babbling, and as such puts most flesh-and-blood employees of BS vendors out of business. Lol, self-pwn. It hinders introduction of the new talking points in the General Line of Party (official narrative).Due to (1) it’s likely to break the mechanism creating the continuous line of harmless pseudo-opposition (known in USA as “Northern Conservatism” from ⅩⅨ century), which used to prevent formation of any actual opposition, since most did not abandon “pas d’ennemis à gauche, pas d’amis à droite” until utterly irrelevant. That is, a spectrum of those who were quite happy to swim Left after Cthulhu, but only to buoy #1329, and now consider buoy #1330 “going too far” and #1331 morally abhorrent. Not that it matters much at this point.What exactly is your problem with that?

Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 27, 2024 11:44 am

It reads like output from an AI.

Sparta Nova 4
August 27, 2024 9:49 am

MicroSoft, without permission, installed an AI search assistant on my computer.
I asked the AI to prove CO2 does not cause climate change.
The response: Consensus, nearly all climate scientists concur, nearly all peer reviewed articles concur. Etc.
Followed by: there are some climate deniers working to minimize the consensus.

Dave Burton
Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 27, 2024 10:56 am

Well, it is true that almost all scientists (and almost all so-called “climate scientists”) agree that CO2 causes climate change. That’s not what the climate debate is about. The real debate is about whether it is beneficial or harmful. The evidence is compelling that manmade climate change is modest and benign, and CO2 emissions are highly beneficial.

To try to avoid the problem of LLM AIs reporting common confusions as truth, you can instruct them about the context of your question, and also be very specific with your question. For instance, here’s how I asked ChatGPT about one of the most important benefits of CO2 emissions and rising CO2 levels:

“With reference to the agronomy literature, quantify how elevated CO2 helps plants use water more efficiently, and increases crops’ drought resilience, by reducing stomatal conductance and water loss through transpiration.”

ChatGPT replied with a very good answer:

In agronomy, the effects of elevated CO2 on plant water use efficiency and drought resilience are extensively studied. One of the key mechanisms through which elevated CO2 levels improve water use efficiency is by reducing stomatal conductance and, consequently, water loss through transpiration.

Stomata are small pores on the surface of plant leaves that regulate gas exchange, including the uptake of CO2 for photosynthesis and the release of water vapor through transpiration. When CO2 levels are elevated, plants can maintain the same or higher rate of photosynthesis while reducing stomatal conductance. This reduction in stomatal conductance leads to a decrease in water loss through transpiration without significantly affecting CO2 uptake, resulting in improved water use efficiency.

Several studies have quantified the effect of elevated CO2 on stomatal conductance and transpiration. For example, a meta-analysis published in 2013 (Kimball et al., 2013) found that under elevated CO2 levels, stomatal conductance decreased by an average of 22%, while transpiration decreased by only 17%. This indicates that plants under elevated CO2 levels were able to reduce water loss more efficiently than they reduced CO2 uptake, leading to an overall improvement in water use efficiency.

Improvements in water use efficiency due to elevated CO2 levels can increase plants’ drought resilience by allowing them to maintain adequate hydration during periods of water scarcity. This can be particularly beneficial in arid and semi-arid regions where water availability is limited.

Overall, the literature suggests that elevated CO2 levels can improve water use efficiency in plants by reducing stomatal conductance and water loss through transpiration, which can enhance their resilience to drought conditions.

Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  Dave Burton
August 28, 2024 12:08 pm

I understand what is involved with AI information solicitations.
The point of my post was the “climate deniers” part at the end, plus the official rhetoric at the beginning.

Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 27, 2024 11:02 am

I uninstalled that piece of nonsense.

Reply to  Sparta Nova 4
August 28, 2024 6:22 am

AI will be trashed if it outputs any of the following:

  1. Human caused climate change is a lie.
  2. God exists.
  3. Earth is the only life in the universe.
  4. String theory fooled lots of people.
Reply to  Sparta Nova 4
August 27, 2024 12:53 pm

With the innate assumption that a “climate denier” cannot be inside the set of scientists.

Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  karlomonte
August 28, 2024 12:08 pm

That is exactly why I posted.

rtj1211
August 27, 2024 10:01 am

AI is the latest ‘South Sea Bubble’ craze – just like the internet was in 2000. It is pushed by those wishing to see their investments rise and we are at that ‘naive ignorance’ phase of customer wisdom about the whole field. They’ve heard of the buzz words, they know very little about what different AI platforms can actually do (as opposed to what their sellers claim they can do) and they are in the main far too trusting to be wise customers.

Many of us are of sufficient maturity that we don’t allow naive ignorance to lead to bad decision-making. We avoid AI like the plague, are increasingly rejecting the commercial internet as a useful platform because it is driven not by customer service but profiteering, oligopoly or monopoly.

The internet pre 2005 was actually a revolutionary tool. It wasn’t controlled by Wall Street money men, it was a new frontier for those with a genuine new offering – information sources through your home computer.

But even back then, security services and other parasites were hacking computers to steal the ideas and information stores created by honest individuals. It’s always had a dark side and is best for the unoriginal who use it for freebies, not for those who actually want to create innovation, novelty and human advance.

AI is limited by the intellect of its creators, who are humans. It doesn’t teach itself and it simply cannot mimic real humans in any way. I can tell within 5 minutes when AI is ‘trying to interact with me’ – the language it uses simply isn’t what normal human beings would say.

The world will do perfectly well without AI, just like it will do perfectly well without computer geeks thinking they can create safe vaccines in 100 days.

Just like it will do perfectly well without climate scaremongerers, if it can but learn from the history of civilisations which includes enough descriptions of weather patterns, river flooding patterns, glacier ebbs and flows, grape harvesting dates, northern boundaries of successful wine production, the differences in climate between e.g. central Europe and Russia/Eurasia (whose patterns may in fact be opposite to one another at some points in history), the lack of uniformity in when climate maxima and minima may reach different locations within a broad sweep of 200-400 years, to be a coherent description of how climate changed since the end of the last Ice Age, including the Holocene Climatic Optimum which was rather warmer, for a few thousand years, than currently is the case. Etc etc.

Just because satellites can generate millions more data points since the 1960s than existed in the 1300s doesn’t mean that the historical records of very important features like crop yields, famines, droughts, floods etc aren’t the starting point for anyone who truly wishes to understand the nature of climate change over millennia, rather than a few decades.

Dave Burton
August 27, 2024 10:24 am

Like President Reagan said of the Russians, Trust but verify. (From the Russian “Доверяй, но проверяй” or “Doveryay, no proveryay,” pronounced with a rolled r, like “dove-ya-day, no prrruv-ya-day”).

The LLM AIs are useful, but you have to check everything they tell you. I often ask ChatGPT or CoPilot, “What are some papers (or websites) about {something very specific}?” Usually at some of the references are on point, but you cannot trust that any of them are, without checking.

I also often ask ChatGPT or CoPilot, “Give me an APA-format citation to the paper entitled, Such and so, by Jones and Smith, and please include the DOI.”

I’ll get back a perfectly formatted citation, which is usually correct. That saves a lot of time — but you have to check it. I’ve seen it cite the wrong paper. Once I saw it get everything right except the year. I’ve seen it give a mostly correct citation, but with the wrong DOI. So trust, but verify.

Rud Istvan
August 27, 2024 10:32 am

Why I wrote “The Arts of Truth” about critical thinking. Hundreds of examples all of which would confound AI.

Intro opens with Harvard’s motto, ‘veritas’. The statute of ‘John Harvard, founder 1636’ (per the plaque) in front of University Hall in the Yard is known to those who went there as the ‘Statue of Three Lies’

  1. Harvard wasn’t founded in 1636, rather in 1633 by the Massachusetts Bay Colony.
  2. Harvard was named after him when he died in 1636 bequeathing his considerable library (over 700 books) to the new school.
  3. The statue isn’t of John Harvard—nobody knows what he looked like. It was a then student who sat for the sculptor.
Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  Rud Istvan
August 28, 2024 11:30 am

Well, at least they continued that tradition.

n.n
August 27, 2024 10:39 am

AI is essentially a Viterbi decoder with a massive constellation. Anthropogenic Intelligence (AI) influences its constellation construction set through source material and definition of semantic and linguistic primitives that affect presentation and framing.

Reply to  n.n
August 27, 2024 11:50 am

Eh?!

Reply to  n.n
August 27, 2024 2:38 pm

This seems reasonable in principle to me. The same can be said for our voice boxes.

n.n
August 27, 2024 10:42 am

Progressive is an [unqualified] monotonic process, where from some perspectives it implies forward motion, positive developments, etc. Show me the fitness function!

Giving_Cat
August 27, 2024 11:11 am

If LLM AIs were around a century ago neither Einstein’s Theory of Relativity nor Wegener’s theory of continental drift (plate tectonics) would have ever seen the light of day.

Izaak Walton
Reply to  Giving_Cat
August 27, 2024 5:20 pm

Nonsense. It was well known in 1904 that Maxwell’s equations were inconsistent with Newton’s laws and every since the experiments of Michelson and Morley showing the non-existence of the ether people had been looking for ways to reconcile the two. Poincare for example had written down the same laws of special relativity as Einstein several years before but without the same physical insight. Other people such as Fitzgerald and Lorentz had also predicted effects like the length contraction so Einstein was not going against the consensus here.

Jim Masterson
Reply to  Izaak Walton
August 27, 2024 7:20 pm

You’re speaking nonsense. Maxwell’s equation were consistent with physics in general. The problem was the appearance of the speed-of-light in those equations. The Principle of Relativity dates back to Galileo. It’s the idea that our physical laws and theories apply everywhere.

If c (the speed-of-light) is present, then we should see multiple speeds for light–as it leaves various sources with various velocities. Instead, we only see one speed. The ether was based on sound waves traveling through air (near the surface). Michelson-Morley 1887 ruin the ether theory. Lorentz was able to derive his transformations from Michelson-Morley 1887, but couldn’t explain why.

Einstein could derive the Lorentz transformation from first principles, assumed that light was a constant in all inertial frames, and made Maxwell’s equations invariant thanks to Special Relativity.

Izaak Walton
Reply to  Jim Masterson
August 27, 2024 8:44 pm

Jim,
Maxwell’s equations are inconsistent with Newton’s laws of motion precisely because the speed of light appears explicitly in Maxwell’s equations as you state. Poincaré and several others proved this by showing that the group of transformations that leave Maxwell’s equations invariant are different from the group of transformations that leave Newton’s equations invariant.

Jim Masterson
Reply to  Izaak Walton
August 28, 2024 11:08 am

Galilean Relativity or Galilean-Newtonian Relativity makes Newton’s three laws of motion invariant WRT inertial frames. The Galilean transformations don’t work with Maxwell’s equations. The Lorentz transformations work with Maxwell’s equations and with Newton’s three laws of motion. At slow relative speeds, the Lorentz transformations simplify to the Galilean transformations.

As for inconsistency–I don’t know what you mean. Why would vectors, time-variant terms, and wave equations be inconsistent with Newton?

Reply to  Giving_Cat
August 27, 2024 8:21 pm

You think science ends with AI?

Its only through experiment, measurement and real world interactions that we can advance science. AI in its current form cant directly help with that although it can help point the way.

Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  TimTheToolMan
August 28, 2024 11:34 am

The AI phenomenon is simply an extension of how science is taught in schools. Everything is proven by consensus.

Idle Eric
Reply to  Giving_Cat
August 28, 2024 3:59 am

It’s not so much the LLM’s that are the problem, it’s the set of institutions, journals, funding and incentive structures that enforce a single consensus view and exclude all non-conforming works from the literature and label them as disinformation.

August 27, 2024 1:05 pm

My own experience is very different from this. I have been using perplexity.ai, initially for technical queries, and more recently as a general search engine.

When you ask it a technical question – mine are mostly about Linux/Unix configuration – it gives suggestions which are not always correct, but are usually pointers on the way to a solution.

It has the great merit of offering followup questions, when you can tell it a solution doesn’t work, isn’t applicable, doesn’t do exactly what you want, and it responds sensibly.

Maybe an example will make this clearer: a machine is running xautolock, which puts it into suspend mode under some conditions. The user acquired a bluetooth keyboard. It was now impossible to wake it using the keyboard, since in suspension the connection to the keyboard was suspended. Could one use mouse click? Not obviously, because the bluetooth connection was via a usb dongle, and that resets the identifiers every restart making the obvious way of capturing the click invalid.

In the dialogue on this perplexity was very helpful, suggested fragments of script which were well written, identified different possibilities for the config files. After several back and forths I arrived at a simple solution which I would never have found, or only with a lot more looking and puzzling.

Then there is general search use. Here its somewhat similar, it gives a summary, with references so you can check. Its to be used warily since it sometimes gets what the references are really saying wrong. Sometimes it misses some important ones. But if you use the followup feature it recognizes errors and gives further references.

Try it. A simple query will return a response, but ask it something a bit more complicated, like how useful are inverse ETFs to hedge against a bear market. Use the followup feature, and you can with persistence get to a clear explanation of why this is not a very good idea. It has to do with rebalancing and correlation with the underlying index.

My conclusion is, use warily, question, but its even at this early stage very useful, It does a lot of time saving filtering, and the ability to have an extended dialogue makes it far more useful than simple search engine.

Also, its command of English grammar is quite amazing. Chomsky, if he is still taking an interest in this stuff, should be reflecting on how wrong he got that, all those years ago.

Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 27, 2024 2:53 pm

If one knows enough to argue with the AI, you may trick it into coming up with a more accurate answer. But you have to be knowledgeable enough to recognize the correct answer or solution when you see it.

How is this different to an interaction between two people, one of which knows little about a topic? Asking the right question is always the key to gaining knowledge. And consequently it’s a dialogue that mostly benefits getting to an understanding rather than a single question.

The article is a good one and the issue is real. Brainwashing people to the point where they are no longer rational is a thing too.

Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 27, 2024 4:36 pm

It does not “know” anything, it predicts the most likely next word.

What do you mean? The knowledge is built into the model and came from the training material and the associations it made during its training.

Ask yourself how you (ie your brain) “knows” anything.

AI has no way of knowing if its answers are correct or factual.

AI has typically been trained with a very broad base of information, some of which is false and contradictory. Same goes for Professors. How many Professors “hallucinate” answers to global warming questions in your opinion?

Re:

The structure being taught was almost nonsensical, childish, known to be incorrect .

But was the analogy it represented, useful in understanding the structure of the atoms? Learning is a process. In terms of learning, its simply impossible to go from no understanding whatsoever to full understanding in a single step. The context of the answer is as important as the answer itself.

Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 27, 2024 6:30 pm

I cant read that article, It looks like I need to subscribe as there is an unavoidable overlay on it. But you know better than to believe a journalistic piece anyway. So why point me there? What is its reference?

Re:

LLMs have no knowledge. 

You keep saying this. How do you think an LLM model is different in knowledge representation to your brain’s knowledge representation in principle?

Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 28, 2024 10:25 am

I’m not interested in signing up. You should supply the reference in the article. But it doesn’t matter, you could simply respond the questions.

LLMs do have knowledge as evidenced by their ability to pass various tests including the Turing test. Do they get things wrong? Yes. Do we get things wrong? Yes. So given their imperfect representation of information, why should you expect differently?

Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 28, 2024 12:41 am

Kip, I don’t think this is quite correct. Try using perplexity.ai for a few queries, and I think you will change your mind about this. Its not putting one word in front of another, its extracting material from the web and summarizing and ordering it. The summarizing and ordering in plain English prose is what is remarkable.

Yes, you have to be able to ask sensible questions and you have to be able to query it further. But this will be true of using any search engine to the same purpose.

Here for instance is an example. I asked perplexity if there is any gui for the programming language awk, an old language from the early days of Unix. This is what it said:

https://www.perplexity.ai/search/is-there-any-gui-for-awk-5mMQJkUASEWwr228MpGISw

This is not putting one word in front of another, its ordering and summarizing a large amount of material, and giving links to the sources. I don’t know how it does it, or how it gets the grammar so fluent and natural.

What it offers is a mixture of the useful and the rather optimistic. The useful is the various real guis that it suggests – I have not tried any of them, but its interesting to know they exist. The rather optimistic is the suggestion that one should write one’s own gui using Tcl/Tk. If you can consider doing that you don’t need a gui for awk in the first place!

Reply to  michel
August 28, 2024 12:53 am

I was puzzled about one of its responses and so asked a followup: does awk run on windows (it does, but one of the guis suggested is windows only). This is what it offered in reply:

https://www.perplexity.ai/search/does-awk-run-on-windows-epKLMtGnQp60OdtJ8boCtA

Same point really, this too is far more than and different from one word after another. It also shows some of the weakness of perplexity and perhaps other ai’s, the gui tool which it suggests doesn’t really do what a questioner would want, it just allows you to call awk from a gui, but it is not a gui for awk. I expect some of the other suggestions are more the real thing.

Reply to  michel
August 28, 2024 1:56 am

Kip, also look at this as an example:

https://www.perplexity.ai/search/why-did-keir-starmer-fire-his-m8g7F3mbRpCW2po0vkxNLQ

No idea how its doing it, but this is a balanced literate assessment.

Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 28, 2024 10:37 am

The source link there worked better on my tablet and the article was OK to read but contained nothing unexpected as far as I was concerned. Over fitting has always been a potential problem and is exacerbated by using output for training.

You keep repeating

“When generative A.I. is “trained” on vast amounts of data, what’s really happening under the hood is that it is assembling a statistical distribution — a set of probabilities that predicts the next word in a sentence, or the pixels in a picture.

And appear to believe that prediction of the next word means something about knowledge but refuse to comment on how this differs from what our brains are doing at least in principle.

Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 29, 2024 10:29 pm

If we abandon hubris and admit that we have no idea how the human mind works, we have a good starting point.

And yet machine AI with its neural network replicates it well. Not completely but well enough to pass the Turing test so its not true to say we have no idea how the mind works, we’re creating artificial minds even today.

If you want to argue about say, consciousness then sure, its much less obvious machine AI can or will achieve consciousness.

But you dont need consciousness to have knowledge and reasoning emerging from the AI neural network and that’s what we see.

It follows that our brains work in the same way even if there is something else involved in consciousness itself.

Sparta Nova 4
Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 28, 2024 12:15 pm

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
— Arthur C. Clark, 1973

Izaak Walton
Reply to  Kip Hansen
August 27, 2024 5:31 pm

Thus it is with AI. An AI does not know the answers.”
That depends what it is trained on. ChatGPT is very good at providing the answers to simple coding problems since it has been trained using queries from stackoverlow. And if lots of people have asked similar questions before then ChatGPT is good at summarising the responses and providing useful information. But if you ask it to solve a completely new problem you will get nowhere.

Reply to  Izaak Walton
August 27, 2024 5:53 pm

ChatGPT is good at summarising the responses and providing useful information.

That’s not what is happening. That’s not the way it works. LLMs have created associations between concepts allowing them to create “new” ideas.

if you ask it to solve a completely new problem you will get nowhere.

Do you have an example?

I could ask ChatGPT to solve the question of time travel and its true it’ll get nowhere but that’s because there is almost certainly no basis for an answer in our entire understanding including associating seemingly disparate ideas to come up with something novel.

But there is no reason ChatGPT cant come up with a suitably well defined, but never seen before, coding algorithm.

Reply to  TimTheToolMan
August 30, 2024 5:23 am

AI has no imagination. It is a scholar who can remember facts but can not assemble them in new and inconceivable ways to solve a problem. It can remember how to solve problems that have already been solved but not how to imagine an hypothesis that requires fitting together different concepts. If AI could do this, it would recognize the symbol manipulation shown at the beginning was incorrect and done something different.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
August 30, 2024 7:11 am

It is a scholar who can remember facts but can not assemble them in new and inconceivable ways to solve a problem.

By what standard? People use AI to come up with new ideas all the time. AI art is brand new although AI might not create a brand new kind of art such as the style in Van Gogh’s A Starry Night. But then again, maybe it has already done that but doesn’t exploit it by focussing on it so it goes unnoticed.

At the end of the day we all respond to our past (training) and present (senses) and AI is currently limited to its training so its ability to come up with entirely new things is somewhat limited.

But that’s not a fundamental flaw with AI, its just the way it is right now.

It can remember how to solve problems that have already been solved but not how to imagine an hypothesis that requires fitting together different concepts.

This is incorrect. AI can solve problems that it hasn’t seen before. There are many examples of it. It’s passed many tests with flying colours (eg SATs)

https://collegeprep.study.com/sat-exam/chatgpt-sat-score-prompts-discussion-on-responsible-ai-use.html

What kind of problem are you talking about? Keep in mind AI has limited ability to solve a problem for which is has no exposure to in its training data. So for example if an experiment found evidence for a new and unexpected physics particle interaction, then without training, how would you expect AI to address it?

Reply to  TimTheToolMan
August 30, 2024 8:44 am

Imagination! Creativity! The connecting of disparate information into a cohesive explanation of something never explored or thought of before. Anything else is simple regurgitation of facts about something it has already been told.

Reply to  Jim Gorman
August 30, 2024 1:27 pm

Imagination! Creativity! The connecting of disparate information into a cohesive explanation of something never explored or thought of before. 

AI does this. Have you never used ChatGPT?

Reply to  TimTheToolMan
August 31, 2024 12:00 pm

I have used several of the AI’s.

Now you tell us what physical science breakthroughs have AI’s made other than in pattern recognition of existing data. Why do they not run full bore imagining new things and how to measure them? Other than pattern recognition, which I will admit they are good at, what original thoughts about new phenomena have they discovered. How about a new social order where everyone is provided for and is happy and the path mankind needs to follow to get there?

Reply to  Jim Gorman
August 31, 2024 1:05 pm

Other than pattern recognition, which I will admit they are good at, what original thoughts about new phenomena have they discovered.

Not just pattern recognition. Transformer technology has added contextual understanding.

Until AI has agency in the world, it’s going to be limited to what its been trained with. However it has great ability to interpret. Read a scientific paper to it and it can potentally come up with unique perspectives. But it’s not magic.

Reply to  michel
August 27, 2024 10:05 pm

I use Claude.ai for anything complicated and it is very handy.

Sometimes it doesn’t understand the questions especially if it doesn’t have some previous questions for context so I try to used saved chats on the same subject if possible to give it some context..

Reply to  scvblwxq
August 28, 2024 3:17 am

Interesting, I’ll try it out.