In Memoriam Professor Ray Bates

By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley

Professor Ray Bates

One of the most unpleasant utterances of the climate Communists is that all they have to do is wait and all the skeptics will die, one by one. One of the greatest of us, Professor Ray Bates, former deputy director of Met Éireann, former Branch Head of NASA’s Laboratory for Atmospheres in Goddard, Maryland; Emeritus Professor of Meteorology at the University of Copenhagen and most recently Adjunct Professor of Meteorology at University College Dublin from 2004 to 2023, has died peacefully at Blackrock Hospice, Ireland.

His first wife Ziara died in 2003. His second wife Natasha, to whom he was devoted, survives him, as do his siblings Trish, Eugene, Billy, Declan, Kathleen, Dick and Margaret. 

Ray Bates was one of those outstanding, enquiring minds that used to make the sciences endlessly fascinating. I first came across him a decade ago at a dinner in Galway, on the west coast of Ireland, before we were to debate the climate question before the members of the Law Society of Ireland.

Even in those days, when one could still get a debate on climate change, it was not going to be one on one. Our hosts decided that to balance the Moncktonian case against the climate-change nonsense there should be not one but two upholders of the Party Line. My second opponent, who was also at dinner, shall remain faceless and nameless, for he was a mere drone, slavishly parroting the pusillanimous pietisms of the Party and contributing nothing of any lasting intellectual interest.

Ray Bates was instantly and visibly different. The word most often use of him by those who knew him and came to love him was “gentleman”. There was an unaffected courtliness about his beaming smile and his relentless, softly-spoken charm. He never spoke an unkind word about anyone. I forget what we talked about at dinner, but it had very little to do with the climate. He became a friend at once.

At the debate, after all three of us had spoken, the first question, from a climate Communist with the characteristic hatchet face, unsatisfactory wardrobe and sullen, grouchy manner, was addressed to Ray Bates. Why, he said, had Professor Bates been willing to lower himself to debate Monckton, whom everyone knew to be a nitwit, or indeed to debate anyone on the settled science of climate change?

Ray went up to the microphone, beamed contentedly at Worst-Dressed Man of The Year and said, “It should be as obvious to everyone here as it is to me that Monckton is profoundly knowledgeable on the climate question, and that it is I who am going to have to reconsider my position.”

You could have heard a pin drop. The climate Communist went white and collapsed untidily into his seat. The group of fellow-Communists in his row looked dismal.

For what they had not realized is that Ray Bates was intellectually honest. His particular specialism in the climate-sensitivity field was the application to climate of feedback analysis from control theory, a branch of rocket science in engineering physics.

Like every control theorist to whom my team’s result has come, Ray realized at once that the points I had raised could not simply be dismissed.

He wrote to me after the debate and asked me to send him the then early draft of our paper on the feedback issue. He went quite for a week or two and then got in touch. He had physically cut up the paper and lined up all the diagrams to match them with points in the text that interested him. He soon got the point, and, from then on, became a climate skeptic.

One of the many reasons why he and I got on so well is that I had undergone a similar conversio morum on the climate question. I had originally gone along with the Party Line, and had even appeared on the most popular TV chat-show in the UK, the Clive James Show, to explain how the greenhouse effect works, sticking my finger into a glass of water to demonstrate it. As far as anyone can discover, that was the first time it had been described on British television.

But then I had written a model to take the monthly global temperature data from the various datasets and plot the trend. Practically no one else was doing that. There was endless talk about global warming, but no one was letting us in on the secret or how much (or, rather, how little) global warming was actually happening.

I discovered, and named, the Pause. From 1997 to 2015, a period of almost 19 years, there was no global warming at all. Yet the vast majority of the world’s news media had kept this fact secret. On seeing the temperature plot emerge on the screen as a least-squares linear-regression trend that was horizontal, I realized the world was being fooled.

I wondered why the world had not been warming for so long. For the greenhouse effect is a real effect. Why was it not warming the planet at even half the long-predicted medium-term 0.3 K/decade? That is why I began to investigate feedbacks, since feedback response constitutes three-fifths of midrange predicted warming.

At our meetings from time to time since the Galway debate, we would often talk with sadness of those in the scientific community who were unwilling to think for themselves but were instead wedded to the Party Line because it was temporarily fashionable and undemandingly safe.

Ray was one of many who quietly encouraged me and my team in our research, and he was among the many distinguished scientists, from Freeman Dyson to Will Happer, who had generously given us their time and support when no one else wanted to know. From time to time he would send me his own learned papers and ask for my comments before he submitted them.

Ray Bates, then, dazzlingly and publicly exemplified the ancient truth that he who changes his mind when the evidence requires it provides irrefutable proof that he has a mind.

How, then, shall we honor the memory of that great man?

What I propose is this. We have now been working on our research for close to a decade. We submit that our result is no longer in doubt. It is not at all likely that global warming will be large enough or rapid enough to do net harm. Yet the journals of climatology will not publish our paper, not because it is wrong but because it is – to coin a phrase – the inconvenient truth. We have had some hilariously dopey reviews.

Therefore, if there are any learned readers of WattsUpWithThat who are curious, and would like to read our paper and give me any comments they would like to make, they can honor the memory of Ray Bates by doing what he did, asking for a copy of our paper, reading it, thinking about it and then letting us know whether we are right and, if so, how we can improve the paper. Just drop me a note at monckton[at]mail[dot]com and I shall send you the paper. It is just six pages long.

Meanwhile, may Ray Bates make merry in Heaven as he made us merry on Earth.

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Rod Evans
January 9, 2024 3:10 am

Thank you Christopher for a well written overview of a man few of us will have known. He was obviously an open minded scientist, as all scientists need to be if they are to be true to their chosen profession.
Let us hope, the growing awareness of Climate variability among the open minded members of the science world continues to expand. It needs to embrace more of those still in their prime research phase of academic life. Realism/honesty must, not simply be delayed like a damascene moment, to the days of retirement which appears to be a common evolutionary feature of academia….. for uncomfortably obvious reasons.
RIP Ray Bates, a first class man.

lordmoncktongmailcom
Reply to  Rod Evans
January 11, 2024 3:03 am

I am most grateful to Rod Evans for his kind words about Professor Bates, and to all others below who have been kind enough to pay tribute to his memory.

What a sadness it is that the malevolent climate Communists have seen fit to disrupt this thread with so many hate-filled comments.

It is particularly unfair that my good friend Dr Pat Frank, who has a brain the size of Jupiter, should have been subjected to their nastiness. Among other viciousnesses, they say his landmark 2019 paper on propagation of uncertainty in the models was published in a “predatory” journal. Let it be clear, then, that it was reviewed by none other than Dr Karl Wunsch, who recommended acceptance.

old cocky
Reply to  lordmoncktongmailcom
January 11, 2024 3:53 pm

It’s unfortunate that a tribute to a late friend has turned into a kindie party with too much red cordial, or perhaps Parliamentary question time 🙁

Reply to  old cocky
January 13, 2024 8:52 am

I agree that Willard started us down, with an alternative view of the work of Professor Bates. But the design of WUWT made it happen. WUWT actually likes it like this, and so designs their comments page. It adds to eyeballs and ad revenue. You would be happier with the tone if WUWT made both up thumbers and Debbie Downers identifiable. So would I.

Reply to  lordmoncktongmailcom
January 11, 2024 5:25 pm

Thanks, for the kind words Christopher. Knowing you is a privilege. Your friendship is an honor.

Reply to  lordmoncktongmailcom
January 12, 2024 5:30 am

” Let it be clear, then, that it was reviewed by none other than Dr Karl Wunsch, who recommended acceptance.”

Karl Wunsch? Who dat? But yes, let’s go for clarity As in, Not Based In Fact.

https://pubpeer.com/publications/391B1C150212A84C6051D7A2A7F119#5

Reply to  bigoilbob
January 12, 2024 4:31 pm

Not Based In Fact.

Guess what,

In the version that I finally agreed to, there were some interesting and useful descriptions of the behavior of climate models run in predictive mode.”

and

I thought the version I did see raised important questions, rarely discussed, of the presence of both systematic and random walk errors in models run in predictive mode..”

mean.

You’re so predictably shallow, bob. Your ideological fixation has made you mindless.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 13, 2024 7:18 am

Yes, those quotes are in my link. I actually agree. Dr. Wensch wanted “ systematic and random walk errors in models” discussed. He just couldn’t countenance your bogus treatment of them.

And I have no problem with anyone publishing noninflammatory material that is both “interesting” and nonsensical, in non peer reviewed publications, wherever they can. And even if the occasional toilet paper gets into fringe peer reviewed publications, I’m thankful that those few who cite it do so autoerotically in their other papers, or don’t actually use your “method” in their papers. IOW, I’m glad that we are free to cry out either sensibly or not, and that the system is working

Finally, I hope that you can then stop deflecting and agree that Dr. Wensch got conned by whoever modified your paper after he saw it, but before it was published.

Reply to  bigoilbob
January 13, 2024 11:14 am

bob: “He just couldn’t countenance your bogus treatment of them.”

Wunsch: “[The paper] raised important questions, rarely discussed, of the presence of both systematic and random walk errors in models run in predictive mode.”

Are you dyslexic bob, or just lying?

Reading the rest of your villainous and impeachable speculations, lying is the preferred inference.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 13, 2024 10:08 pm

Wrong is wrong, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 14, 2024 6:46 am

Willard, in spite of this comment,

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2024/01/09/in-memoriam-professor-ray-bates/#comment-3847219

please don’t think that I’m blaming you for the tone of these posts. Correcting the bias in the OP is quite in bounds.

Reply to  bigoilbob
January 14, 2024 7:49 am

No worries, Bob. It nobody can reign in Pat or even Mr. Nice, that’s on them. Ray may not have had the Damascus moment <a href=”https://andthentheresphysics.wordpress.com/2022/10/10/how-to-lord-comment-sections/”>Chrissie</a> suggested. There is nothing much our commentariat can say about that.

Reply to  Willard
January 14, 2024 3:33 pm

reign in? There’s a laugh. I’ve yet to encounter a competent member of your ilk.

I’m not surprised you’d want to stop my exposure of your epidemic wrongheadedness.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 14, 2024 3:42 pm

Reduced to Cliffie Clavinisms.

As a retired international petroleum engineer, I learned long ago to overlook the occasional spello in favor of content. This is an indicator of how insulated you were from the internationally sprinkled Stanford student body.

BTW, I misspelled Dr. Wunsch’s last name in another post. You either spaced on that, or chose to avoid more mention of him and his written distancing of him to you.

Reply to  bigoilbob
January 14, 2024 6:11 pm

No need to cite another thread, Bob. Pat missed the first word of my comment too!

From these two typos I’m sure Pat’s editorial follows “deductively.” For science is meant to proceed deductively. At least that’s what he holds elsewhere.

Reply to  Willard
January 15, 2024 11:24 am

Pat missed the first word of my comment too!

I noted it and moved on. But thank-you for revealing the shallowness of your own focus. Again.

For science is meant to proceed deductively. At least that’s what he holds elsewhere.

What is a prediction in science, Willard?

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 15, 2024 3:51 pm

Your entire argument is leveraged by misuse of concepts and the jettisoning of epistemology, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 17, 2024 11:34 am

You’ve outed yourself as Ken Rice, Willard.

But that’s convnient because now I can inform you directly of my falsification of your truly awful critique.

First part here, second here.

Posted on WUWT, where inconvenient falsifications are not deleted.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 17, 2024 1:22 pm

Your comment has no analytical force, Pat. It lends comfort only to the politically-minded.

Reply to  Willard
January 17, 2024 3:35 pm

So you say, Ken.

But here’s what commenter michel had to say about it:

Its an excellent and complete reply. Particularly this

Ken’s mistake here is incredible to any trained physical scientist or engineer. He is confusing a ±calibration uncertainty statistic with positive and negative physical energy flux. He supposes that “±” means ‘ranging between positive and negative physical magnitudes.

A ±calibration statistic means nothing of the sort. It is an ignorance width. It means uncertainty; lack of knowledge. And uncertainty is not a physical magnitude.

Ken suggests his spread of projections “is much more like what Pat Frank presented.” But a spread of projections is nothing like an iterative propagation of error.

Very clear and impossible to argue with. Thanks.

michel substantiated his view. Imagine that.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 17, 2024 5:49 pm

From that statement, Pat, I can confidently surmise that one of two things is true:

  1. you have never read my post, or;
  2. you read the post but understood none of it.
Reply to  Willard
January 18, 2024 5:56 am

I know you think a ±uncertainty statistic is a temperature, Ken.

Evidence that stark does not need a surmise.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 18, 2024 7:53 am

#3850571 has no critical content, Pat.
It has no effect on the validity of the analysis, Pat.
There is no Climateball issue beyond that, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 19, 2024 12:19 pm

#3850571 has a devastating impact on the validity of your criticism, Ken.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 19, 2024 4:19 pm

Yours is not an honest practice,

Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 20, 2024 5:55 am

Where’s the dishonesty, Ken?

You criticize from ignorance. Is that honest?

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 20, 2024 7:55 am

You evidence an analytical carelessness that is indistinguishable from polemical opportunism, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 21, 2024 11:46 am

Writes Ken, opportunistically posting a polemic.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 21, 2024 1:24 pm

Your “Ken” is a chimera, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 22, 2024 10:39 am

Yours isn’t, Ken.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 22, 2024 5:35 pm

After you read Habermas (1976), Pat, then read van Eemeren (2018), Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 22, 2024 8:52 pm

is philosophy science, Ken?

Reply to  bigoilbob
January 15, 2024 11:21 am

My comment was about the substance, not the misuse.

The notion of any of you people having rein-in competence is laughable.

I didn’t mention your “Wensch” because I didn’t care.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 15, 2024 8:24 pm

Insults, Pat. Arguments, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 17, 2024 11:39 am

Where on this thread have you not employed the first against me, rather than the second, Ken?

As to b.o.b, very long evidential experience has led to a conclusion.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 17, 2024 1:22 pm

Carry on, Pat. I have no fear of any dispassionate evaluation of our exchange.

Reply to  Willard
January 17, 2024 3:36 pm

Nor I, Ken.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 17, 2024 5:50 pm

You stopped reading because you have no case, Pat. Your entire attack was baseless.

Reply to  Willard
January 18, 2024 5:57 am

You launched the attacks, Ken.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 18, 2024 7:51 am

Referencing your past comments is called logical coherence. There’s no fault in that,

Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 19, 2024 12:21 pm

Misrepresenting the sequence of events is called dissimulation.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 19, 2024 4:20 pm

You have contributed nothing of substance here,

Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 20, 2024 5:58 am

There is this, of course. Which you invariably flee.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 20, 2024 7:57 am

Your transmission of your fake criticism and of my post was uncritical and without mindfulness, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 21, 2024 11:50 am

Your incompetent physical error analysis is the essence of authenticity, critical ability, and mindfulness, is it, Ken?

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 21, 2024 1:25 pm

Your “Ken” is a chimera, Pat.

It’s not that you’re in left field, Pat.

It’s that none of you are even in the right Climateball park,

Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 22, 2024 10:41 am

Your motivation in reply is fatuous, Ken.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 22, 2024 5:40 pm

You got it wrong again, Pat. All the mind probing stems from error in your argumentation model.

Reply to  Willard
January 22, 2024 8:53 pm

Theory and result, Ken. Experiment and falsification.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 14, 2024 4:11 pm

You are making the argument of a naive freshman student who has no experience at all with Climateball; not even prior high school level.

Reply to  Willard
January 14, 2024 3:12 pm

Where am I wrong, Willard?

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 14, 2024 3:40 pm

Your question is an analytical non-sequitur. It entirely misses the point. Your question has no bearing on what I did, or on my comments, or on the analysis that is in them.

Reply to  Willard
January 15, 2024 11:27 am

Blah, blah, blah, Willard. Lacking substance and oracular. As usual with you.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 15, 2024 3:52 pm
Reply to  Willard
January 17, 2024 11:39 am

How so, Ken? Lay it out for us all.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 17, 2024 1:24 pm

The Climateball is in your court.

Reply to  Willard
January 17, 2024 3:04 pm

Wrong, Ken. It’s in yours. Here, and here. You got nothing right.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 17, 2024 5:51 pm

Given the irrelevance of your comment, Pat, I’m led to wonder whether you have even read the post.

Reply to  Willard
January 17, 2024 3:01 pm

I just realized you linked the PubPeer thread.

Which of those criticisms would you like to defend? Right here on WUWT and any time you like.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 17, 2024 5:53 pm

Read Willard (2024), Pat. Find out how caviling with cranks actually works, what it is, and what it means.

Reply to  Willard
January 18, 2024 6:01 am

Complain away, Ken. You still don’t know to distinguish between a ±uncertainty statistic and a physical temperature.

And you still think that a ±W/m² calibration uncertainty in flux is a perturbation on the model.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 18, 2024 7:51 am

This entire conversation has been an exercise in tedium for me, with the exception of responding to Walter,

Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 19, 2024 12:23 pm

And yet you have exercised thereto repeatedly. Perhaps you enjoy being tedious.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 19, 2024 4:21 pm

Maybe you should read the the thread before commenting on it,

Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 20, 2024 5:59 am

My comments here concern you criticizing from ignorance.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 20, 2024 7:57 am

That reflects badly on your analytical dispassion, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 21, 2024 11:53 am

Passion about your arrogant incompetence is bad, is it Ken?

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 21, 2024 1:26 pm

Your “Ken” is a chimera, Pat.

Really, Pat, you need to keep track of what you write, Pat, and stop laying your behavior on me, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 22, 2024 10:43 am

You have transmitted your behavior, Ken, and its vapid realization is here for all to see.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 22, 2024 5:42 pm

Much of your umbrage at my understanding of your responses stems from your continuing to hold on to your braggadocio in the context of a scientific question, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 22, 2024 8:57 pm

Umbrage? Tedium, rather.

Your understanding? Your understanding holds a statistic to be a physical temperature.

bdgwx
Reply to  lordmoncktongmailcom
January 12, 2024 9:23 am

It is particularly unfair that my good friend Dr Pat Frank

Your friend is suggesting that the temperature figures you were publishing in your monthly pause update articles should have been C/month instead of C which would make your trends C/month.decade.^

^It’s actually worse than that. Since UAH TLT values are averages in both the temporal and spatial domains that means we should be treating the UAH TLT values as being C per month per globe according to your friend. For example, the 0.83 C figure that UAH actually reported should have been 0.83 C/month.globe according to your friend. Or in fundamental SI units that would be 6.2e-22 C/m.s.

was published in a “predatory” journal

It’s on at least 4 different predatory journal lists. This, of course, does not mean articles published in the journal are automatically wrong. It just means that the author did get the same level of service as would be expected from a non-predatory journal. This is why authors who publish in predatory journals are often classified more like victims.

it was reviewed by none other than Dr Karl Wunsch, who recommended acceptance.

Did he?

lordmoncktongmailcom
Reply to  bdgwx
January 12, 2024 3:08 pm

Yes.

Reply to  bdgwx
January 12, 2024 4:42 pm

Congratulations on exceeding your usual high level of fatuous, bdgwx. <a href=”https://wattsupwiththat.com/2024/01/09/in-memoriam-professor-ray-bates/#comment-3846957/”>See also</a>.

You might want to study up on dimensional analysis.

4 different predatory journal lists.

Argument from authority. How do you know they’re unbiased?

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 14, 2024 9:39 am

Your argument is merely an abuse of logic and of terminology, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 15, 2024 11:28 am

How would you know, Willard?

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 15, 2024 3:54 pm

Since publication, I have received emails from Climateball players who have read the thread and expressed gratitude for it having been published; one of whom expressed fear of reprisal from Pat’s bullying.

Reply to  Willard
January 17, 2024 12:45 pm

fear of reprisal

Reprisal is material, i.e., physical, retaliation. Sharp debate is not reprisal. I give what I get.

Either that person misused language to curry sympathy, or you misused it Ken to promote a lurid exaggeration.

You allowed “Dunningly-Krugered physics-denying pseudoscientific woo-tian” on your 2017 Watt About diatribe, Ken/Willard-the-moderator. And the crank,

Your Cranks Cavil post is hardly kind. And who is “Dikran”? That name does not appear in the PubPeer thread.

I just noticed in your Nonsense Part II, Ken/Willard, that you wrote, “If [±20 K] isn’t temperature what is it? … To claim that it’s some uncertainty statistic, and not a temperature, is just nonsense.

You truly don’t know, do you.

And “Uncertainties represent something real (i.e., they represent the range of possible results).

No, they don’t. They represent an ignorance width. And systematic uncertainty is explicitly of the epistemic kind.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 17, 2024 1:25 pm

Lamentations play no part, Pat. Content is the only criterion of judgment.

Reply to  Willard
January 17, 2024 3:13 pm

Pretty ironic you’d post that, given you posted this.

DMA explained it perfectly to you. But you brushed it away.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 17, 2024 5:54 pm

Another incorrect analysis, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 18, 2024 6:02 am

How would you know, Ken?

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 18, 2024 7:50 am

Did you understand either case, you’d not have taken such comfort in your comments or would not have initiated this conversation in the first place,

Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 19, 2024 12:27 pm

You carry on about understanding cases, and yet you don’t know to distinguish between a physical temperature and an uncertainty in temperature, nor between a calibration error statistic and a perturbation on a model.

Absent those understandings, you’re unable to make any rational case about Propagation…

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 19, 2024 4:22 pm

You seem to have no idea what you’re criticizing,

Pat.

It seems pretty likely you have not read the post at all,

Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 20, 2024 6:01 am

I’ve read it and am not impressed.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 20, 2024 7:58 am

You’re not displaying the practice of a scientist,

Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 21, 2024 11:55 am

Critical exposure of analytical incompetence is not the practice of a scientist, Ken?

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 21, 2024 1:27 pm

Your “Ken” is a chimera, Pat.

Lose the debate, Pat, but rescue yourself by accusing your opponent of incompetence, Pat?

Reply to  Willard
January 22, 2024 10:44 am

Where is your competence in supposing an uncertainty statistic is a physical magnitude, Ken?

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 22, 2024 5:46 pm

Your “Ken” is a chimera, Pat.

All you’ve done is cavil, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 22, 2024 9:01 pm

I’ve shown you’re wrong, Ken.

Reply to  bdgwx
January 13, 2024 11:16 am

C/month

Every monthly mean is indexed to its specific month. Every yearly mean is indexed to its specific year.

Were they not, construction of a graphical time-series would be impossible.

bdgwx
Reply to  Pat Frank
January 13, 2024 2:43 pm

Every monthly mean is indexed to its specific month.

That doesn’t mean the units are C/month. It’s just C. Likewise a flux that is indexed to a year doesn’t mean the units are W/m2.year. It’s just W/m2.

Were they not, construction of a graphical time-series would be impossible.

Of course it is possible. Scientists do it all of the time. Even your friend Lord Monckton has no problem plotting a timeseries of monthly temperatures with units of C (not C/month) on the y-axis.

Reply to  bdgwx
January 14, 2024 3:44 pm

It’s just C.

No, it’s not. It’s (mean C)/(that year). Were it not (that year)⁻¹ you’d not be able to plot the time series.

a flux that is indexed to a year

The RMSE is not a flux. How many times must you be told this obvious fact?

±4 Wm⁻²yr¹ is an annual mean calibration error statistic. How hard is that to figure out? A plus/minus statistic is not flux and cannot be flux.

units of C (not C/month) on the y-axis.

Plot mean C vs year in a time series. What is the dimension of the slope?

bdgwx
Reply to  Pat Frank
January 14, 2024 7:03 pm

It’s C for a year; not C per year. Pay close attention to the difference.

An average temperature for a year has units of C.

The change in the average temperature over many years is a rate of temperature per year and has units of C/year.

If you take a temperature reading of a body each year and plot that in a graph you have the temperature for that body on y-axis in units of C and the time those readings were taken on the x-axis in units of years. The slope of the best fit line representing the data is the rate of change in the temperature per year in units of C/year. Each individual yearly temperature is still C. It is only the change in that temperature that is C/year.

The value Lauer and Hamilton published is the flux in W/m2 for a year; not per year. It is not a rate of change in the flux. And yes, W/m2 is a flux. That is true regardless of whether it is a min, max, mean, rmse, etc. If it has units of W/m2 we call it a flux regardless. It’s not different than determining the rmse for measurements with units of C. It’s a still a temperature.

Reply to  bdgwx
January 15, 2024 11:49 am

It’s C per that individual year. Average temperature for some number of years is C per year.

Average C/year is not a rate because it is not a velocity. Or a vector. Pay close attention to the difference.

The value Lauer and Hamilton published is the flux in W/m2 for a year;”

Incredible. How is a RMSE (plus/minus)Wm⁻² uncertainty statistic, a physical flux?

If it has units of W/m2 we call it a flux regardless.”

You call it wrong. How is a (plus/minus) flux calibration uncertainty statistic (not an error), a physical flux?

You’re supposing an energy flux can have two opposing magnitudes, simultaneously.

Congratulations. You’ve invented a new net-zero.

It’s not different than determining the rmse for measurements with units of C. It’s a still a temperature.

Thank-you bdgwx. You caused me to laugh out loud. You’re so far out in left field that you’ve exited the ballpark.

The instrumental resolution of a thermometer has no physical connection to molecular kinetic energy.

Reply to  lordmoncktongmailcom
January 13, 2024 11:43 pm

I did not know that Mr. Nice was a Climate Communist, Chrissie.

Damn commie! They’re everywhere!

(Drink!)

watersider
January 9, 2024 3:24 am

Thank you Lord Monkton. A lovely tribute.
As an old sceptical Galwegian I can understand the depths to which the land of my birth has descended and it is unsurprising the reception you got in Galway.
I must confess ignorance in Prof Bates contribution to sanity and : Ar deais de go riabh a anam (may God have mercy on your soul)

Scissor
January 9, 2024 3:46 am

Wonderful tribute to a great person.

The answer to the death of skeptics is the rebirth of curiosity and its search for truth as exemplified by Dr. Bates. Even during the most oppressive regimes the human spirit naturally seeks to rise. A free and open society helps it along.

strativarius
January 9, 2024 4:16 am

RIP

“wait and all the skeptics will die”

We have that attitude here regarding the Brexit vote amongst other things. 

“Death of ‘1.5m oldsters’ could swing second Brexit vote, says Ian McEwan
This article is more than 6 years old
At Brexit conference in London, author says ‘angry old men’ are shaping UK’s future and by 2019 the mood could be different”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/12/15m-oldsters-in-their-graves-could-swing-second-eu-vote-says-ian-mcewan

How wrong can they and the idiot McEwan be?

2019: How did Boris Johnson achieve his landslide victory?  
Johnson’s gamble on a ‘Brexit election’ paid off, with big gains in Labour’s leave-voting heartlands
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2019/dec/13/boris-johnson-achieves-landslide-victory-visual-guide

Then there’s the insults… low information voters, knuckledraggers, thickos etc. 

Therein lies the real threat to democracy. Their inability to accept a democratic vote with good grace.

Reply to  strativarius
January 9, 2024 5:34 am

While Germany, the only real power-house and source of money in all of Europe, was seeking ‘back-door’ trade deals with the UK to try and keep itself afloat – having crippled itself with EngyWendyWendy.
(The rest of Europe of course went ballistic and it all fell through)

Meanwhile Paris imagined it could take the place of the City of London as a financial centre – we all see how well that worked out when Paris raced backwards in the financial world.
They couldn’t organise a p!ss up

January 9, 2024 4:17 am

Thank you for this tribute, Monckton of Brenchley. Good to hear from you again here at WUWT. And please keep on with your team in the pursuit of sound climate analysis.

January 9, 2024 4:19 am

Thank God, he had the mind and the intellectual curiosity to rethink his position. Being willing to admit one is wrong is rather gratifying and quite humbling.

strativarius
Reply to  George T
January 9, 2024 4:32 am

Changing position

Something no politician is going to do. At this moment Parliament is agonising over what to do about over 700 postmasters. The Post Office (Prop. HMG) and Fujitsu corporation have had since the 90s to change their position and they will not.

Justice Lost In The Post
https://www.private-eye.co.uk/special-reports/justice-lost-in-the-post

The usual political method is to eke it out until they’re all dead. Unfortunately a dramatisation has kicked it to the top of public concerns – hence Parliament finking wot to do.

Where was the media? Or rather why did it look the other way?

A number of these unfortunate souls took their own lives. And Ed Davey was minister of postal affairs….

Richard Page
Reply to  strativarius
January 9, 2024 6:21 am

Ed Davey is a disgrace to his profession. Given that his profession is that of a politician you can imagine that’s a very low bar to get over which Davey still manages to limbo under with room to clear.

strativarius
Reply to  Richard Page
January 9, 2024 6:41 am

And then there’s Daveyand the private jets…

“” As Ed Davey joins the ranks on Twitter attacking Liz Truss for flying on a private plane – apparently she’s “woefully out of touch” – Guido reminds eco-Davey to check his own baggage before getting too excited. As Guido reported back in 2020, Davey has pocketed thousands from a couple who make their money from renting out 23,000 private jet flights a year. In 2020 alone, Chris and Tina Leach, owners of the private jet rental company Air Charter, put £16,500 into Davey’s coffers ahead of his leadership campaign. ””
https://order-order.com/2022/01/27/ed-daveys-high-flying-hypocrisy-over-trusss-aussie-flight/

Martin Brumby
Reply to  strativarius
January 9, 2024 8:41 pm

Don’t forget that Davey was trousering (and likely still trousers) a Solar “Energy” company’s £18,000 per year, for his “advice” (this taking a few hours per year and of roughly equal value to used toilet paper).

This was when, under Cameron, he was Her Majesty’s Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change. When he selected Hinkley Point B as the UK’s next nuclear plant, being the most expensive, the most unlikely to be successful and longest to develop (still incomplete) option. And the most Chinese. Also, as he still boasts, the man who effectively banned fracking for methane by introducing an upper limit on seismic intensity of 0.1. Roughly equivalent to the shock of him dropping his wallet. Whilst fracking for “geothermal” (another GangGreen boondoggle) is permitted the “normal” intensity level of ‘concern’ of 4.0, the same as pile driving, quarrying etc. As seismic intensity is measured logarithmically, the 0.1 is roughly 3,100 times less energetic.

Potato Ed at his finest.

Reply to  Richard Page
January 9, 2024 6:42 am

Apparently Davey has made 31 “they should resign” tweets. Seems to be saying “It’s not my fault they lied to me” as if that’s an excuse. James Arbuthnot at least comes out with some credit

Reply to  strativarius
January 9, 2024 6:36 am

Computer Weekly deserves more credit for its investigation of this.

https://www.computerweekly.com/feature/Post-Office-Horizon-scandal-explained-everything-you-need-to-know

I was still working and we had copies of CW which often had interesting articles so I’d look at it most weeks. After reading their article I’ve spent over 10 years waiting for the brown stuff to hit the fan.

strativarius
Reply to  Ben Vorlich
January 9, 2024 6:48 am

I was thinking big media rather than niche publications such as the aforementioned and specifically Private Eye- who covered it from the outset.

Reply to  strativarius
January 9, 2024 10:00 am

Jo Swinson (remember her?), who later won the Lib Dumb leadership contest over Davey, served as postal affairs minister (full title Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Employment Relations and Postal Affairs) after Davey replaced Chris Huhne (remember him?) as Energy Secretary. Evidently neither Davey nor Swinson achieved much to further employment relations in the postal service.

January 9, 2024 8:13 am

As some wag once noted: “The mind is like a parachute – it only works if it’s open”.

January 9, 2024 10:17 am

Too soon:

<blockquote>

Professor Kevin Anderson, chair of energy and climate change at the University of Manchester’s School of Mechanical, Aerospace and Civil Engineering, said Bates’s new position “only serves to further weaken the GWPF’s already tenuous grasp of the science underpinning climate change”.

</blockquote>

https://www.desmog.com/2021/09/28/uk-climate-denial-group-slides-further-into-obscurity-with-latest-appointment-say-academics/

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 11:05 am

Quoting DeSmog…., seriously ! roflmao…

That only heightens Ray Bates’s as a person of strong scientific integrity.

It is troughers like Anderson that have basically zero grasp on the reality of climate.

They are PAID to remain ignorant. (you on the other hand, don’t need to be paid.)

Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 11:29 am

Check the figure 1 on that political hit job, Nice One:

https://www.thegwpf.org/content/uploads/2021/12/Bates-Sea-Ice-Trends.pdf

Imagine this is a stock.

Would you buy or sell?

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 12:20 pm

You are a mindless know-nothing nobody, Dullard

Looks like everything said in that pdf is factual and correct.. something you will never be.

Did you know that current Arctic sea ice extent is above what it has been for EVERY year back to and including 2004 for the same day of the year. !

And still in the top 5% or so of the last 10,000 years.

Thankfully for Arctic sea life, it has decreased somewhat since the anomalous high of 1979.

Don’t choose to live your insignificant existence in deliberate ignorance.

btw, with the AMO starting to head downwards, this would be a great time to buy Arctic sea ice stock, if you actually believe increased Arctic sea ice is a good thing !

Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 12:44 pm

> back to and including 2004

Nice cherry pick, Mister Nice.

How much would you buy?

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 1:18 pm

Data, little child.

You should try some.

Noted that you couldn’t counter a single thing I said.

Arctic sea ice higher than the last 19+ years… get over it…

…. or just go with your climate denial.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 5:21 pm

Oh, Mr. Nice. Your shadowboxing did not impress. Try to land a hit.

When you’ll tell me how much, I’ll ask for how long you’re willing to hold your position.

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 6:11 pm

Arctic sea ice is currently higher than this day of year for the last 19+ years

You LOSE.. as you always will. !

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 6:16 pm

did not impress”

so what…. actually data is a total anathema to you.. obviously.

You aren’t even at the right playing field.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 6:24 pm

Well, Mr. Nice, since you ask so kindly:

> Arctic sea ice reaches its minimum extent (the area in which satellite sensors show individual pixels to be at least 15% covered in ice) each September. September Arctic sea ice is now shrinking at a rate of 12.2% per decade, compared to its average extent during the period from 1981 to 2010.

https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/arctic-sea-ice/

Are the cherries you pick as red as your face?

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 7:04 pm

Extent is higher now than any time in the last 19+ years (for day of year)

Sorry if you can’t accept basic FACTS

1979 was a period of extreme high anomaly, almost up there with the LIA… so of course it is a massive cherry pick for a start point.

Was much lower just a few years earlier.

Not good for Arctic sea or land life.

It is also in the top 5% of the last 10,000 years.

Again.. CLIMATE DENIAL and/or ignorance is all you have.

Arctic-sea-ice-IPCC
Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 7:55 pm

Your rationalizations are duly noted, Mr. Nice.

I usually ignore irrelevant factoids, but you made me look:

https://imgur.com/Ps33DUJ

Source: https://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

Care to try again?

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 8:23 pm

Actual NSIDC data, little child.

Sorry you are incapable of doing anything yourself. !

Nothing in your link counters the FACT from their own data , that 2023 is currently above every year back to 2004.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 9:14 pm

In fact, the Charctic data CONFIRMS my numbers are correct (even though it uses a slightly different method from the straight data at the ftp site.

Try not to be LOSER all your life. !

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 8:43 pm

Did you know that

Sea ice extent increased by an average of 87,400 square kilometers (33,700 thousand square miles) per day, markedly faster than the 1981 to 2010 average” (according to your link)

For December overall, 2023 had the third highest monthly gain in the 45-year record” (according to your link)

And that current extent is higher than all years back to 2004 ! (according to actual data.

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 11:19 am

I usually ignore irrelevant factoids”

Then why that is all you ever produce. !!

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 7:35 pm

Reality is that Arctic sea ice decrease has levelled off…

… and at an extent FAR HIGHER than the Holocene norm.

Don’t let the actual data kick you in the behind on your way out, ignorant-one.

Arctic-sea-ice-2023
Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 8:28 pm

You mean rabid AGW scammers putting a fake history together that ignores all actual real Arctic ice history?

Bizarre that you still fall for that sort of scam/propaganda.

But then.. cognitive functionality, is most definitely NOT your thing. !

Russians know far more about Arctic sea ice than the scammers ever will.

Arctic-Sea-Ice-Alekseev-2016-as-shown-in-Connolly-2017
Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 4:31 am

That looks like a mirror of the U.S. regional chart.

Low ice in the 1930’s, and high temperatures in the United States. More ice in the 1970’s, and colder temperatures in the United States. Lower ice in the present day, and higher temperatures in the United States. It looks like a cyclical pattern to me. Nothing to do with CO2.

Hansen 1999:

comment image

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 8:32 pm

And of course, their little “fabrication” disconnects Arctic sea ice from Arctic temperatures, which totally destroys their own AGW story.

So sad they are incapable of keeping their LIES and FABRICATIONS straight, isn’t it. 😉

Is often the way when you FAKE things!

arctic_temp
Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 8:36 pm

Wow, someone doesn’t like the ACTUAL DAT being shown, do they.

I wonder, is that Dullard or one of the other climate data deniers ?

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 7:38 pm

now shrinking at a rate of 12.2% per decade,”

Actually, in the last decade, it has gone basically nowhere.

Only thing shrinking, is you mind…. not much left now. !

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 8:05 pm

The “splat” and the “spray” you feel is on your own face.

Comes from reading propaganda pap, rather than look at the actual data.

Arctic Sea ice has levelled off over the last decade.

Not only that, but it is currently above any extent back to 2004 for this day of the year. in NSIDC and in OSI (Norway).. and in MASIE (over its whole record back to 2006)

Arctic-sea-ice-2023
Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 1:44 am

how long you’re willing to hold your position.”

As long as the data shows I am correct.

Totally unlike you, who’s brain-washed cultist belief is totally un-swayed by any reality or data.

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 4:34 pm

Willard, how do you (or anyone else) know that the climate is warming due to CO₂ emissions?

And if CO₂ emissions can’t be blamed, where’s the so what? about sea ice changes?

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 9, 2024 5:22 pm

Do you often beat your wife, Pat?

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 6:12 pm

The ONLY person tainted by your pathetic attempts at sliming…

.. is YOU, dullard.

You yet again, avoid producing any evidence…

… as is the AGW stooge modus.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 6:22 pm

Oh, Mr. Nice. Should I sample all the slime you tried to throw at me?

Never mind. You missed.

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 6:56 pm

Poor Willard

An evidence-free empty mind.

Go back to kindy and start getting an education.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 8:03 pm

Oh, Mr. Nice. It only was a drive-by. Would you like me to stay a little longer? Sooner or later you’ll have to honor your bet, and contrarians can’t win with “But the Arctic.”

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 8:34 pm

I have already won.. The Arctic is FAR HIGHER than nearly all the last 10,000 years.

Or you can just keep up with your science denial and your climate denial.

All you are capable of is a drive-by fart .. with your windows up. !

Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 8:42 pm

So be it, Mr. Nice.

Does that look fAr HIghER to you?

HIGHERTHAN10000YEARS
Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 8:59 pm

Just the Little Ice Age.

What a pathetic attempt !

And FAKE to boot !!

Arctic-Sea-Ice-Holocene
Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 9:00 pm

Which matches the temperature records well, Unlike the fakery you posted.

holocene
Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 9:09 pm

Canadian Arctic shows the same thing….

Holocene-Cooling-Canadian-Arctic-Fortin-16
Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 5:47 pm

“Canadian Arctic” is kinda big, Mr. Nice.

I think you mean the Boothia peninsula.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 9:25 pm

And now you go for Greenland, Mr. Nice. Because of its underground sea, perhaps?

Never fear. There’s always a way to find a less crappier graph than what you can find in your shady backchannels:

ARC19_Greenland_tedesco_Fig1-1536x721
Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 9:43 pm

Silly attempt at change in subject.. and again.. starting at the COLDEST period since the LIA..

MEANINGLESS NONSENSE. !

Greenland ice area over the Holocene is also still very much at the high end

Try not to be ignorant of everything all your life.

Greenland-Ice-Sheet-Briner
Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 9:44 pm

And here is a graph of the Greenland ice mass since 1900.

Greenland-ice-mass2
Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 9:01 pm

And Other parts of the Arctic, the same pattern

Arctic-Sea-Ice-Greenland-Sha-17
Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 9:07 pm

And north of Iceland… That big spike is the period of your little period of faked data.

Arctic-Sea-Ice-Extent-North-of-Iceland-3000-Years-Moffa-Sanchez-and-Hall-2017
Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 9:50 pm

One day contrarians will stop their “ARCTIC SEA ICE EXTENT
(North of Iceland)” misdirection.

By “North of Iceland,” do you mean to the South-East of Greenland where there’s no sea ice?

N_daily_extent_hires
Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 10:19 pm

Oh dear.. the willy ignorance just keeps on flowing, like he’s had a bad enema.

Perhaps you should do some real research and not keep relying on the mindless propaganda you have been brain-washed with.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 9:29 pm

How is West Greenland a different part than Greenland, Mr. Nice?

Let’s see if you hide anything by not showing the other parts of Greenland.

Hmmm.

ARC22_GreenlandIceSheet_moon_Fig41
Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 10:18 pm

roflmao.. willy thinks Greenland gets sea ice.

What a mindless little child. !!

Obviously has absolutely ZERO CLUE about any of these graphs.

So funny.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 5:44 pm

Lulzing is good for a soul…of a 10 year-old, Mr. Nice.

Never grow up!

41467_2017_1884_Fig2_HTML
Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 9:05 pm

Not surprising there was SO LITTLE sea ice for much of the Holocene, when it was so much warmer compared to now….

By the way.. Baltic Sea ice extent is really high this year… must be pretty darn cold, hey !!

Holocene-Baltic
Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 9:33 pm

And now the Baltic Sea. The truest representative of the Arctic. You’re a real globetrotter, Mr. Nice!

Figure_4a_sst_indicator_baltic_sea
wh
Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 9:41 pm

are those records homogenous?

Reply to  wh
January 9, 2024 10:29 pm

You seem to really like that question, Walter. Why don’t you go check for yourself?

Reply to  wh
January 9, 2024 10:34 pm

Notice that they start around 1950.. why not the 1930s or 1940s. 😉

Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 11:15 pm

Graph landed the wrong place.

Here’s the data back before the cherry-picked start point..

Pretty good match to the period of silly-willy’s graph, but contains temperature data back to1936.

ArcticTempsSurface1936_zpspod7pd2i
Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 5:37 pm

I’m sure Mr. Nice will provide you with the source for his graph, Walter.

Just you wait.

wh
Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 9:09 am

That question is what gets me called climate denier the most. But instrumentation for collecting water temperature has, without a doubt, changed. Furthermore, there are still vast areas of the ocean that have not been explored.

Reply to  wh
January 10, 2024 5:39 pm

Perhaps it’s just because you ask it all the time without really following through, Walter. Those who know you better might have better reasons.

Take the first leading question, for instance.

wh
Reply to  Willard
January 12, 2024 12:11 pm

Well, all it does is add more uncertainty to the already Great Unknown, Willard. It’s a shame you defend science that thinks it can correctly adjust it, like a tapping a broken pencil together.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 5:36 pm

Thus spake our Holocene Opiner!

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 10:10 pm

Yet there is so much Baltic sea ice this year.

Oh dear. !!

And it has been a LOT warmer in the last 10,000 years

Baltic-Sea-bottom-water-temperatures-8-10C-warmer-7000-years-ago-Ni-2020
Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 10:12 pm

You do know the Baltic is counted in the Arctic Sea ice, don’t you little sock-puppet. !

Did you know the current levels of sea ice in the Arctic are above EVERY YEAR back to 2004 ?

Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 10:28 pm

The Baltic North Transitional Area may not mean what you make it mean, Mr. Nice, and no, the Baltic sea isn’t a part of the Arctic regions.

Funny that you call me a sock puppet – who do you think you’re talking to?

OMI_CLIMATE_SST_BAL_area_averaged_anomalies-hq
Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 11:05 pm

An empty sock.. would have more intelligence. !

Another cherry-picked short term nothing.

I notice that the temperature has pretty much levelled off since around 2002.. basically agreeing with the FACT that Arctic sea ice has levelled of since about that time.

Well done. ! 🙂

And what do you think region 13 on the MASIE maps is?

MASIE-Regions
Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 5:35 pm

You really think I’m a sock puppet, Mr. Nice. Do you?

No, too complex. Let’s start with something easier –

You really think?

arctic-regions
Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 10:53 pm

I can see why they started the graph in 1950 😉

Hilarious cherry-pick., isn’t it

ArcticTempsSurface1936_zpspod7pd2i
Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 9:19 pm

No wonder you like Chukchi Sea, Mr. Nice. You chuckle like Chucky.

I hope your amp goes to 11.

(Volume. Amp. Get it?)

Arctic-death-spiral
Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 9:33 pm

Again from the extreme high of the 1979.

A meaningless and totally trivial piece of childish propaganda.

Just for mindless fools like you.

What incredible stupidity makes you think extreme high levels of sea ice, like i the LIA and 1979 were in any way desirable ?

Since the slight drop down to the current , (still far higher than most of Holocene), sea life has started to return to the Arctic .

Sea life not seen since the drop from the MWP into the LIA is returning.

Why hate Arctic sea life ??

Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 9:53 pm

Chill, Mr. Nice. You’re shadowboxing again.

At least acknowledge that sea ice has decreased dramatically, at a speed we have never witnessed before rope-a-doping to its consequences!

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 10:24 pm

Sea ice has NOT dramatically decreased…

… only drama queens and the very ignorant think that.

It has RECOVERED slightly after an extreme high during the LIA and again in 1979….

.. and that Arctic sea life is returning.. and loving to have good access, even if for only a short few months of the year.

Sea travel is also now possible again for a few short months in summer.

The slight decrease has been absolutely beneficial to human, and Arctic sea and land life in general.

Extent is still in the top 5% or so of the Holocene.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 10:48 pm

In FACT Current levels are even within the Holocene range yet.

arctic-sea-ice-holocene
Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 8:24 am

By “current levels” you must be referring to 2008, Mr. Nice.

I wish Kenneth would keep to presenting the graphs he finds instead of tweaking them to please the contrarian crowd.

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 11:05 am

Current level now is ABOVE 2008.

Yet another FAIL from you.

Poor muppet.. Abject failure is your life.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 5:29 pm

The paper you cite was published in 2008, Mr. Nice.

Your turn.

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 10:32 pm

You’re shadowboxing again.”

You certainly have no counter… you are already flat on the floor and sept under the rug to mate with the other cockroaches.

Just mindless non-thinking regurgitation of blatant propaganda.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 8:25 am

“You certainly have no counter”

Are you a betting man, Mr. Nice, and how much can you afford to lose?

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 11:07 am

Only LOSER here is you.. and I suspect you are well aware of that fact.

Which is why you carry on with your silly and childish “I’m-an-idiot” routine.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 5:28 pm

Beliefs and bets are somehow related, Mr. Nice:

https://andthentheresphysics.wordpress.com/2023/06/03/beliefs-and-bets/

Posturing for the peanut gallery doesn’t count.

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 9:45 pm

You really are a complete moron, aren’t you Willy !

Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 10:21 pm

Oh, Mr. Nice. I love you too!

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 9:15 pm

A pathetic little upside down hockey stick.. HILARIOUS. !!

Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 9:54 pm

> hockey stick

You keep using these words, Mr. Nice.

They might not mean what you make them mean.

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 10:06 pm

And you are clueless about basically everything

And determined to stay that way.!

Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 10:21 pm

I actually started at the Auditor’s, Mr. Nice. In fact I stumbled upon the Auditor’s *because* I was looking at hockey sticks!

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 11:07 pm

Another hallucinogenic charged mindless comment from silly-willy.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 8:26 am

> Another hallucinogenic charged

Gaslighting is not nice, Mr. Nice.

I really started at the Auditor’s:

https://neverendingaudit.tumblr.com/

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 11:03 am

More arrant nonsense.

Why bother with your childish troll-like carry-on ??

It really is absolutely pathetic.

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 11:15 am

How about we graph that LIA sea ice on a zeroed axis.

Then we can see the recovery very slightly toward more normal Holocene at the end.

Pity anything before the 16th century has “extensive uncertainties” and is thus meaningless.

silly-willy
Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 3:09 pm

Wow, they had satellite data of Arcic ice in the Middle Ages? Who knew?

Reply to  Graemethecat
January 10, 2024 5:26 pm

You’re having a tough time following Mr. Nice’s rope-a-doping, Cat.

Give it time.

wh
Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 8:00 pm

Willard,

Why can’t you acknowledge that the current consensus in climate science, asserting a significant and observable impact of CO2 on the climate, might be premature?

Reply to  wh
January 9, 2024 8:26 pm

Walter,

Why can’t Pat answer bdgwx’ question?

wh
Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 8:58 pm

huh?

Reply to  wh
January 9, 2024 9:00 pm

That’s fine, Walter. Perhaps you should not hide behind Pat’s dress and try to help Mr. Nice instead.

wh
Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 9:05 pm

The decline in Arctic Sea Ice has experienced a significantly reduced pace since the late 2000s. Variability holds significant importance; analyzing patterns in the data yield more insights than simply drawing straight lines with a ruler like monkey.

Perhaps you should not hide behind Pat’s dress 

what are you talking about?

Reply to  wh
January 9, 2024 9:12 pm

You amplified Pat’s leading question that had nothing to do with what was being discussed in this subthread, Walter. You invited me here, and the first thing you do is hide behind Pat’s robe. That’s not very chivalrous of you.

The fastest decline in Arctic sea ice in a *very* long time can’t be brushed away that easily.

wh
Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 9:28 pm

My question was just a question; not meant to be a follow up to Pat’s. And I invited you to a different thread; not this one. And both of you declined my invitation. You’re here because you want to insinuate Monckton.

wh
Reply to  wh
January 9, 2024 9:39 pm

The “fastest decline” can be brushed away if it has slowed dramatically since then. Although that claim of it being the “fastest decline” is dubious.

Reply to  wh
January 9, 2024 9:58 pm

That it is dubitable is par for the scientific course, Walter.

That you find it dubious is par for the Climateball course.

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 10:26 pm

What a truly moronic comment

Pertaining to absolutely NOTHING !!

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 8:20 am

The first sentence expresses an epistemological claim that is rather obvious. The second sentence expresses a sociological claim that is rather obvious too. Put the two together, and there is something rather obvious being said.

Do you really need me to spell it out, Mr. Nice?

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 10:59 am

So you ADMIT it was a truly moronic comment.

OK !

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 11:24 am

Oh, Mr. Nice. You KNOW that I don’t!

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 2:02 am

dubious “

Is a great definition of ALL the “climate change” nonsense and malarkey.

Based on fakery and scientifically unsupportable conjectures, from the quick-sand base upwards.

It is like a more demented and delusional version of a “Dodgy Bros” used car advertisement.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 8:18 am

I wish I could call this “another mindless empty comment,” Mr. Nice.

But since comments have no mind, I won’t.

Reply to  wh
January 9, 2024 9:57 pm

Our Viscount Discount is not my type, Walter. I would never wish to insinuate him.

I hope the little session with Mr. Nice satisfies your curiosity. If it does, I will forget your question-begging silliness.

Woul that be fair to you?

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 10:27 pm

Another mindless empty comment

Is that all you are capable of, little willy ?

Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 10:49 pm

That comment wasn’t meant for you, Mr. Nice.

If you could please mind your own business, that would be great.

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 1:35 am

If you could please mind your own business”

If you could stop making moronically stupid, mindlessly empty and irrelevant comments… that would be great too.

But then you would have to be silent..

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 8:17 am

That’s not a way to respond to “mind your own business,” Mr. Nice.

Imagine if you had to tell me that kind of things face to face.

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 10:31 am

Open forum clown.. !

Get over yourself.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 11:21 am

I’m not sure how being on an “open forum” justifies acting the way you do, Mr. Nice.

It sure gives a nice color to your nickname!

Reply to  wh
January 10, 2024 12:05 pm

You are dealing with a warmist/alarmist idiot who keeps deflecting from a number of published papers that supports what Bnice has been talking about.

You will never get an honest response.

Reply to  Sunsettommy
January 10, 2024 5:24 pm

If only Mr. Nice asked a question, Tommy Boy.

Please stick around. You’re a charmer.

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 9:37 pm

The fastest decline in Arctic sea ice in a *very* long time”

ROFLMAO

Look at the data.

It is NOT a fast decline, and it has levelled out at an extent that is still well above levels for most of the Holocene.

Data really isn’t within your tiny realm of understanding is it.

Arctic-sea-ice-2023
Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 10:01 pm

Still here, Mr. Nice?

Keep repeating yourself. I will continue my expansion.

osborne-Fig2-1536x1131
Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 10:05 pm

Changing to “millions of years”. roflmao !!

What a moronic clown you become when you know the evidence is overwhelming you. !

Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 10:09 pm

The speed of the change was kinda obvious, Mr. Nice.

At least to someone who knows better than to post crap from Pierre’s and gloat, which may not be you.

osborne-Fig3-1488x1536
Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 10:29 pm

FAKE hockey sticks are the MEME now are they…

hilarious !!!.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 10:50 pm

You’re knee-jerk amusement is getting a little odd, Mr. Nice.

No Tourette in your family?

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 11:35 pm

You know they are faked…. that’s the really funny thing.

You are fooling YOURSELF and absolutely no-one else.!

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 7:40 am

Do I have a brain or do I know things, Mr. Nice?

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 10:24 am

You know nothing.. deliberately.

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 11:56 pm

No Tourette in your family?”

Certainly no brains in your family !

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 7:39 am

What a zinger!

I hope Pat likes that one.

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 10:42 pm

Funny how the people who actually done the work, rather than just FAKING IT, have different graphs.. 😉

Graphs that actually match Arctic temperatures

DOE
Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 10:44 pm

History is against these FAKES as well.

Arctic-1922-vs-1976
Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 10:56 pm

I draw the line at teh Goddard, Mr. Nice.

You should too – after all, he’s banned from here.

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 11:08 pm

FACTS don’t matter to you do they.

You poor empty sock !

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 7:36 am

Unsourced and irrelevant facts from serial misrepresenters don’t matter to me, Mr. Nice.

You got me there!

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 10:35 am

serial misrepresenters”

That’d be you.

I agree your serial misrepresentations are irrelevant to reality.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 11:19 am

I know that teh Goddard is irrelevant to reality, Mr. Nice.

But what am I?

Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 10:56 pm

Ah, Vinnikov & al 1980. It’s been a while since that one has been thrown at me. Looks like you drank Pierre’s buddy’s Kool-Aid!

What’s his name again?

Anyway, you’re slower than most flying monkeys I’m used to nowadays.

Take care.

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 11:10 pm

So.. no counter to facts..

…. nothing unusual about that , is there. !

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 7:35 am

Mr. Nice,

How many of your “facts” must I counter before you learn your lesson?

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 10:22 am

You haven’t countered anything,

You are incapable of doing so.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 11:18 am

I count at least ten, Mr. Nice.

Should we compare notes?

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 12:10 pm

He never does because there are none which is why he deflects continuously.

Reply to  Sunsettommy
January 10, 2024 1:47 pm

Mr. Nice has been trying to rope-a-dope a mere bet based on the only relevant graph from this subthread, Tommy Boy.

I’m glad you’re here, as I prefer my flying monkeys with a plural. But please try to keep up.

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 1:07 am

flying monkeys”

Your direct kin??

No… far smarter.. you are more on the line of a Proboscis.
The stupidest looking monkey of all.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 7:34 am

Thank you for this very subtle NO U, Mr. Nice.

Next time, ask your kid how it’s done.

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 10:23 am

Still empty.. poor dullard.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 11:17 am

NO U, Mr. Nice.

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 11:55 pm

A more “REAL” graph of Arctic sea ice extent..

one that matches actual Arctic temperatures and the AMO.

not some contrived mal-construction from an AGW zealot.

Arctic-Sea-Ice-Alekseev-2016-as-shown-in-Connolly-2017
Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 7:43 am

At least there is a source to this one, Mr. Nice. This is the paper with an abstract in which we can read:

> This reconstructed SIE shows a substantial decrease in the 1930–1940s with a minimum occurring in 1936, which, however, is only a half of the decline in 2012.

correct?

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 10:51 am

Again, unable to comprehend what you have copy/pasted.

Arctic sea ice similar high level in the late 1930s as it was around 2000.

Extreme peak around 1979… then a recovery from too much sea ice.

All still WELL ABOVE most of the last 10,000 years.

Your incompetence is hilarious.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 11:17 am

I think “half of the decline in 2012” is quite clear, Mr. Nice.

Perhaps you could find the DOI and verify for the peanut gallery you represent?

Reply to  Willard
January 12, 2024 1:52 am

Only peanut around here is you , dullard. !!

Reply to  bnice2000
January 12, 2024 7:52 am

It took you two days to think of this rejoinder, Mr. Nice?

You were quick this time!

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 2:57 am

1… Graph covers ONLY the Little Ice Age with extensive uncertainty before 16th century. This is known to be pretty much the COLDEST period in 10,000 years

2… Measurements spliced on to proxy data.. a no-no.

3… Covers only 400-600 years, depending on what is actually reality of pre-16th century data.

Hence DOES NOT counter the fact that Current extent is in the top 5% or so of 10,000 years.

In fact, it highlights just how cold the LIA period was and how much sea ice there was.

Explains why the Vikings had to leave Greenland.

Explains why Arctic sea life had to leave the Arctic, and is only just starting to return.

The WARMER period before that explains things as well.

Explains why trees were able to grow, where now there are glaciers.

Explain how peat bogs formed that are now frozen in permafrost.

We have just climbed out of a dismal and very cold period after a much more fruitful and bountiful period of the MWP and before.

Icelandic sea ice data also shows this to be the case, with extended sea ice from 1600- about 1900, then a large spike in the late 1970s similar to much of the LIA.

The world is very lucky for the warming out of this coldest of periods, and very lucky for the increase in atmospheric CO2 that goes along with the warming.

It has allowed the human species to survive and prosper. !

Let’s not destroy all that with a totally un-scientific and irrational panic about human released CO2.

Icelandic-sea-ice-index-2
Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 7:44 am

Another Gish Gallop, Mr. Nice?

That one ends with the Iceland Ice Index.

I thought you’d know by now that I spot this kind of trick!

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 10:37 am

You mean another series of statements you are incapable of countering.

OK.. why not just say that.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 1:48 pm

Oh, Mr. Nice. Since I like Walter and he’s the one who invited me here, I’m trying to keep a light hand.

But once again – are you a betting man, and how much can you afford to lose?

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 1:39 pm

Mr. Nice keeps jumping around on all levels of the Contrarian Matrix at the same time while throwing his feces at me and Walter thinks I’m the monkey!

Graphs-of-historic-changes-in-sea-ice-extent-in-the-Greenland-Sea-region-The-continuous
Reply to  Willard
January 12, 2024 1:51 am

Thanks for again showing how much sea ice there was in the 1880s etc and how little there was during the period from 1900-160

You are doing really well ! 😉

You are a monkey.. or actually, more like a flea on the monkey’s back.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 13, 2024 7:25 pm

You haven’t even relayed contrarian foolish criticism correctly, Mr. Nice.

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 10:33 am

silly-willy’s chart on zeroed axis

all his petulant drama-queen carry-on disappears.

silly-willy
Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 11:15 am

Is that a graph related to your Iceland Ice Index, Mr. Nice?

That’s what I thought.

Reply to  Willard
January 12, 2024 1:47 am

No, just the extreme sea ice of the LIA.

Everyone should be very happy with the slight recovery.

It has allowed Arctic sea ice to return.

Highly beneficial to everyone and everything up there.

But you are too ignorant and to anti-LIFE to care about reality.

Sorry you are too incompetent to understand the Icelandic sea ice data.

Not my problem.

No-one can fix deliberate ignorance like yours.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 13, 2024 7:24 pm

Your opinion of recovery is of no consequence, Mr Nice.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 12:08 pm

They do that when they can’t stick with the several decades long timeline under discussion because he can’t accept the overwhelming evidence that the Arctic sea ice decline has stopped after 2007.

Reply to  Sunsettommy
January 10, 2024 1:26 pm

Conversely, Climateball rookies can’t accept the overwhelming evidence that the Arctic sea ice steadily declines since at least 1981.

Same offer as to Mr. Nice: would buy or sell, how much, and what would be your profit target?

n_plot_hires
Reply to  Willard
January 12, 2024 1:44 am

Poor petal… has to work with anomalies to try and scare itself.

Only person being fooled is YOU, dullard. !!

Reply to  bnice2000
January 13, 2024 7:22 pm

No scientist would agree to such naive mistakes, Mr. Nice.

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 11:46 pm

The fastest decline in Arctic sea ice… is a total fallacy, of course.

The data shows a moderate decline from a very high level.

Absolutely NOTHING to be concerned about, and in fact …

HIGHLY BENEFICIAL to all life, human , aquatic or land animals trying to survive in the region.

Aquatic sea life not seen since the cooling period at the end of the MWP is returning.

Aquatic food stocks are rising. aquatic life is loving it. !

Travel in summer becomes possible again for at least a couple of months, like it was for much of the year in Viking times.

No-one has yet to sail the 1944 St Roch route, still not passable.

Still ONE HECK OF A LOT OF SEA ICE up there. !

Far more than for most of the Holocene, the early period which often saw near zero summer sea ice, and open passage for most of the year.

Arctic-Sea-Ice-Holocene
Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 7:33 am

You already posted that Chukni Sea tid bit, Mr. Nice.

The same graph you borrowed from Pierre’s, I presume.

Running dry on ammo?

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 10:38 am

So you now accept the graph.. having had absolutely no counter to it.

Finally realising you are an utter failure.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 11:14 am

So you now accept that the Chukchi Sea (to correct my earlier typo) isn’t the Arctic as a whole…finally realizing you are a Climateball rookie.

Did I got this right?

Reply to  Willard
January 12, 2024 1:53 am

Same pattern applies around the whole Arctic

Try not to be continually ignorant. !!

Reply to  bnice2000
January 13, 2024 7:20 pm

You pretend to work in science without knowing anything of its content or methods, Mr. Nice.

Reply to  Willard
January 12, 2024 1:54 am

ClimateBall. ???

Yes it is very obvious what balls you spend your time playing with !!

Reply to  bnice2000
January 13, 2024 7:21 pm

Comments here show confusion about the origin, the methodology, the meaning, and the impact of Climateball, Mr. Nice.

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 1:01 am

The fastest decline in Arctic sea ice”

Is a load of arrant NONSENSE..

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 7:31 am

“Is a load of arrant NONSENSE..”

Is an ARGUMENT BY ASSERTION.

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 10:40 am

Yet mindless assertion is all you have.

Here’s you little LIA sea ice graph, on a zeroed axis, showing just how UNDRAMATIC it really is.

The “drama” is all in your child-like little mind.

silly-willy
Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 11:13 am

Increasing the whiteness of a graph isn’t that original, Mr. Nice.

What else do you got?

Reply to  Willard
January 12, 2024 1:40 am

Your lack of mathematical understanding is totally expected and duly noted.!

Reply to  Willard
January 12, 2024 1:43 am

Your total lack of mathematical understanding totally expected and duly noted.

It is all just white noise, through the extreme extent of the LIA., moron

As opposed to your comments, which are akin to brown noise.

The only sort you are capable of.

Reply to  Willard
January 12, 2024 1:40 am

Is an argument of fact..

Poor muppet !!

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 11:01 am

A tiny RECOVERY, slightly to more normal Holocene levels at the end of the LIA.

Only fit for a total drama-queen

silly-willy
Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 1:21 pm

The speediest drop in a graph you distort to drown the signal in white noise, Mr. Nice.

Reply to  wh
January 9, 2024 10:13 pm

what are you talking about?”

Willy is totally clueless what he is talking about.. never has.. never will.

Random unassociated garbled nonsense is the best he can produce.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 10:33 pm

Oh, Mr. Nice. One comment you think I’m a sock puppet. The other you can judge what I could ever produce.

Have you considered making up your mind before deciding upon which invective to spit?

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 11:10 pm

An empty sock that can produce nothing.

No confusion my end.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 7:30 am

Oh, Mr. Nice. I have been playing Climateball since at least 2009.

Where were you all this time?

It’s like we are made for one another.

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 10:42 am

And never won a game in your life.

“Incompetence” is your first, middle and last name. !

Time to grow up.

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 10:53 am

playing Climateball”

What a childish and puny little mind you have. !!

Proving to everyone that your only reason for existence is as an incompetent child-like troll.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 10:55 am

Now, off you trot.. .

… take your ADHD meds, and stop pestering the adults.. !

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 1:19 pm

Glad you ADMIT I am not pestering you, Mr. Nice!

Here is one claim:

(P1)  My reviewers were highly competent — unlike you.

Here is another claim:

(P2) Carl Wunsh provided no substantive argument to validate his complaint.

Does P1 and P2 contain the same set of reviewers?

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 5:48 pm

Well, crickets.

Where’s Mr. Nice when we need him?

Reply to  Willard
January 12, 2024 1:37 am

Poor little willy has another ADHD episode.

Yelling and screeching from the toddler’s pool.

You have ZERO competence, little willy.

It is your birth-right.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 12, 2024 7:59 am

Perhaps my first puzzle was too hard for you, Mr. Nice. Here is another one:

Two referees, let’s call them W&Z, recommend to publish Pat’s paper, which has been rejected by at least 13 journals so far. The other two referees did not. We now know that W does not endorse the paper’s conclusion. Something about Pat’s last minute additions.

Q1: how many referees left?
Q2: is that single referee the “physicists” Pat alluded to elsewhere in that thread?

Reply to  Willard
January 12, 2024 10:53 am

Moar crickets, Mr. Nice!

Reply to  Willard
January 12, 2024 4:54 pm

If you’d read the PubPeer thread, you’d know that the changes were required by the additional round by the second reviewer, after Prof. Wunsch signed off the manuscript.

For your laughable “rejected by at least 13 journals” see the ignorance of the reviews described here and discussed extensively in, Are Climate Modelers Scientists?.

Those links are for others, btw. You’re both unlikely to understand the mistakes, and guaranteed to reject the obvious conclusion regardless.

You’ve attained the level of shallow reached by my other alarmist critics, Willard. Zero study, zero analytical acuity, just invent some talking point and harp on it.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 12, 2024 10:22 pm

I was unfamiliar with Tony’s before being notified of the comments in this forum. One hopes the criticisms I have received here — insubstantial drive-bys and prejudicially strained nonsense — are not typical of conversations on Tony’s, because they do not merit standing as being about Climateball.

Reply to  Willard
January 13, 2024 10:50 am

What’s a Tony?

You’ve no evidenced standing to criticize the posts of others here on the grounds of prejudice, drive-by, or strainedness.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 13, 2024 2:29 pm

You asked the wrong question, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 14, 2024 3:47 pm

Your answer is uninformative, Willard.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 14, 2024 4:11 pm

Until you realize that assertion is not proof, and that personal attacks are not relevant conclusions, your “arguments” will remain a product of ignorance, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 15, 2024 11:52 am

What unproved assertions, Willard? What personal attacks?

Your “accusations” remain a product of vacuity.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 15, 2024 3:55 pm

I submit that your comments earned my response, Pat. Were the full context given, I further submit that your complaint would be shown to have no merit.

Reply to  Willard
January 17, 2024 12:47 pm

More unsupported declaiming, Ken

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 17, 2024 1:26 pm

Wrong, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 17, 2024 3:14 pm

Yet another unsupported declamation.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 17, 2024 5:56 pm

I’ve dealt with exactly the issue you raise, both in this comment thread and in post, and show why that thinking is wrong…Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 18, 2024 6:13 am

What issue did I raise, Ken? Bet you can’t explicate it.

Where in this comment thread and what post?

What you’re doing is not clever, Ken. The irrelevance males you look dysphasic.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 18, 2024 7:49 am

It’s also clear that you don’t understand the post itself, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 19, 2024 12:28 pm

What post, Ken?

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 19, 2024 4:24 pm

The results are readily reproducible,

Pat.

But you haven’t tried, have you,

Pat.

And given the results, the published conclusion is inescapable,

Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 20, 2024 6:07 am

Fishing for sympathy never produces a worthwhile catch.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 20, 2024 8:01 am

Pat has constructed an artful pseudo-science, decorated with machismo.

And that, nobody finds convincing.

Reply to  Willard
January 21, 2024 11:57 am

Not nobody, Ken. You. Because you’re incompetent.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 21, 2024 1:27 pm

Pat, Pat,

Your “Ken” is a chimera, Pat.

Your entire argument is retention of that category mistake,

Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 22, 2024 10:54 am

The identity from here to here is categorical.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 22, 2024 5:47 pm

A remarkably telling comment,
Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 22, 2024 9:02 pm

What can we tell from this, Ken?

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 11:12 am

I rather proved to everyone that your accusation of sock puppetry was rather ridiculous, Mr. Nice.

You, on the other hand (don’t ask me where’s the first one), proved your obliviousness regarding your actual Climateball performance.

wh
Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 9:02 am

Willard is a monkey.

Reply to  wh
January 10, 2024 12:03 pm

Does that mean I am a monkey-octopus, Walter?

Reply to  Willard
January 12, 2024 1:41 am

No, just a complete moron..

Reply to  bnice2000
January 12, 2024 7:51 am

You people are hopeless, Mr. Nice.

wh
Reply to  Willard
January 12, 2024 12:05 pm

Willard,

Are you being silly?

Reply to  wh
January 12, 2024 10:24 pm

No, Walter.

I am being Pat*.

bdgwx
Reply to  wh
January 10, 2024 7:15 am

My questions for Pat are numerous. This is not an exhaustive list.

1) Why did he change the units from [Lauer et al. 2013] from W/m2 to W/m2.year in [Frank 2019]?

2) Why does he dismiss the mistakes found by others?.

3) Why does he use the wrong formula for uncertainty in many of the equations (#5 for example) in [Frank 2023]?

4) Why does he use Bevington 4.22 as the basis for uncertainty propagation of an average in [Frank 2010]?

5) Why does he not confirm his answers using the NIST uncertainty machine?

6) Why does he publish in journals that are considered predatory?

Reply to  bdgwx
January 10, 2024 9:18 am

Same old incompetent fixation, bdgwx. We’ve been over this ad nauseam. Your obsession is impervious to enlightenment.

1) Why are you unable to grasp that annual mean = average/year? Your persistent inability to encompass this simple equation appears to imply a neurological problem.

2) Inept attacks, rather. The PubPeer moderator on that thread is now deleting my responses. A complete betrayal of ethics, but typical of alarmist dishonesty. They can’t bear falsification, so they silence their confutators. I plan to post about it soon.

3) Why are you persistently unable to distinguish a mean uncertainty from the uncertainty of a mean? Maybe it’s the same neurological deficit that prevents you from parsing “annual mean.”

4) Because a degree of freedom is lost in the mean.

5) Because systematic error is not Gaussian and has no known probability distribution. You might try reading the user manual.

6) Frontiers in Earth Science: Atmospheres is not predatory. My reviewers were highly competent — unlike you. Why would you suppose descent to ignorant slander is a worthy rejoinder?

Same old nonsense, bdgwx. It’s hard to know whether you’re that thick or that dishonest. But your endless repetition of wrongness is utterly banal.

bdgwx
Reply to  Pat Frank
January 10, 2024 10:33 am

1) I don’t grasp it because it is dead wrong. The Lauer et al. 2013 figure is a flux (W/m2); not a change in flux (W/m2.year). And no, the annual (or monthly, daily, hourly, secondly, etc.) mean of anything does have units of 1/year (or 1/month, 1/day, 1/hour, 1/s, etc.) added to it. A simple unit analysis of the function f(xI: 1 to N) := Σ[xi, 1 to N] / N confirms this since adding does not change units and N is dimensionless.

2) So now PubPeer is deleting your posts eh? Are they are also changing the content of posts? Have you reported it?

3) I know exactly what the difference is. As I’ve said countless times before “mean uncertainty” is Σ[u(x)]/N while “uncertainty of the mean” is u(Σ[x]/N). The former has little or no use. Anyway, the formula for “uncertainty of the mean” is u(Σ[x]/N) = sqrt(Σ[u(x)^2] / N) when x are uncorrelated. If they are correlated then need to use the law of propagation of uncertainty formula with the correlation matrix r. And if you want to say that the correlation of all x is r = 1 then that is an implicit statement that you don’t think any of the uncertainty arises from random effects.

4) Bevington 4.22 has nothing to do with degrees of freedom. It’s not even an equation that outputs an uncertainty. It is exactly what Bevington says it is…an equation that is an intermediate step that is used in conjunction with 4.23 which computes the “variance of the mean” or u^2(Σ[x]/N) when relative uncertainties are to be combined. Bevington clearly labels 4.22 as “weighted average variance of the data” and 4.23 as “variance of the mean”.

5) The NIST uncertainty machine handles systematic uncertainty via the correlation matrix and non-gaussian distributions via the distribution dropdown list.

6) It is listed on the Predatory Reports list of predatory journals. They preyed on you Pat.

Reply to  bdgwx
January 10, 2024 12:50 pm

“It is listed on the Predatory Reports list of predatory journals. They preyed on you Pat.”

As one who watched US Fidelis flip and burn in your own back yard 10 years ago, I think that you have true disdain for the Frontiers of the world. They prey on the old, the gullible, or here, the Dan Kahan Motivated Reasoners. Even as Dr. Frank is systemically ignored – to avoid embarrassing him – above ground, he has subconsciously circled the wagons with his Bizarro World statistics. With the enabling of a few subterranean enablers here, this is how he will fade away.

Sidebar: The Fidelis brothers might still be making little ones out of big ones. I lost track. But extended auto warranty scammers are back to prey on the old, and sick.

Reply to  bigoilbob
January 10, 2024 12:53 pm

“With the enabling of a few subterranean enablers here..”

Feel free to Cliffie Clavin me for this. I should be writing in Word first..

Reply to  bigoilbob
January 10, 2024 2:23 pm

… the usual suspects shamble into town.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 10, 2024 2:40 pm

You’re displaying adversarial politics.

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 9:45 pm

Speaking from experience.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 10, 2024 10:48 pm

The level of ignorance informing that complaint is astounding.

Reply to  Willard
January 11, 2024 8:48 am

Informing you, Willard.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 11, 2024 9:21 am

If you’re going to criticize, please understand, first, what you’re criticizing.

Reply to  Willard
January 11, 2024 5:30 pm

I’m perfectly on board.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 11, 2024 6:02 pm

Worse than an abuse of logic, Pat. Your argument is an abuse of common sense.

Reply to  Willard
January 12, 2024 1:28 am

You wouldn’t have the vaguest clue what common sense is.

Pretending otherwise is just self-flagellation.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 12, 2024 7:49 am

Pat is wrong. As I have pointed out repeatedly on this thread. So are you, Mr. Nice.

Reply to  Willard
January 12, 2024 4:56 pm

Unsupported assertion. Oracular pronouncement. Typical of your species, Willard.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 12, 2024 9:56 pm

You can’t have it both ways, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 12, 2024 4:55 pm

How would you know, Willard?

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 12, 2024 9:57 pm

Those are mistakes to be expected of a college freshman who never took a course on argumentation theory, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 13, 2024 10:51 am

What mistakes, Willard. Be specific.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 13, 2024 2:28 pm

You made no actual criticism, Pat. You merely made non-specific accusations.

Reply to  Willard
January 14, 2024 3:48 pm

Right. You don’t know. You merely made non-specific accusations.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 14, 2024 4:12 pm

Pat, in the first place, insulting is not arguing. You and everyone else never figure out the difference. You make this same mistake incessantly.

Reply to  Willard
January 15, 2024 11:53 am

What insult, Willard?

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 15, 2024 3:56 pm

Receiving Pat’s silly questions and seeing the extraordinary ignorance they conveyed was the most incredible experience of my life in Climateball.

Reply to  Willard
January 17, 2024 12:48 pm

a) More rank dismissal.
b) You testify to a boring life.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 17, 2024 1:27 pm

But you evidently know nothing of rank dismissal or of a good life, Pat.

Isn’t that interesting, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 17, 2024 3:20 pm

Evidently? What evidence?

Your inability to distinguish a statistic from a temperature is incredible, though it’s a banality of my experience with consensus climatologists.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 17, 2024 5:57 pm

You continue to make criticisms consistent with a conclusion that you have never read the post, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 19, 2024 12:38 pm

Which criticisms, Ken? Surely you don’t mean your exercise in plagiarism.

Of course I know you’re doing that, which is why I’ve been answering you as I have done.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 19, 2024 4:26 pm

If you had actually looked at the https://andthentheresphysics.wordpress.com/2024/01/16/how-to-cavil-like-cranks/, Pat, you would have seen my replies to the peanut gallery were very extensive, Pat, very detailed, Pat, and very specific, Pat.

I addressed their criticisms, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 21, 2024 12:02 pm

Abstruse, obtuse, and profuse. You’ve got it all covered, Ken.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 21, 2024 1:29 pm

Your “Ken” is a chimera, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 22, 2024 10:57 am

Your doppelganger is a Ken.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 22, 2024 5:48 pm

Your “doppelgänger” is a chimera, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 22, 2024 9:21 pm

So you say, Ken, indulging shallow japery.

Reply to  Willard
January 12, 2024 1:29 am

The level of ignorance dullard is portraying is hilarious and totally bizarre.

NOBOBY can be that DUMB without immense effort.

Well done.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 12, 2024 7:50 am

Your admission “well done” amounts to an explicit acceptance of my analysis.

Reply to  bigoilbob
January 12, 2024 1:31 am

The greasy ignorance of the slimy-blob oozes to the surface.

Ugly and putrid in its stench.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 12, 2024 9:56 am

You ought to withdraw your analysis, Mr. Nice.

Reply to  bdgwx
January 10, 2024 2:04 pm

1) “The Lauer et al. 2013 figure is a flux (W/m2);”

No, it’s not. It’s a calibration time-average uncertainty statistic. It’s not an energy flux at all.

Start off wrong, end up wrong, bdgwx. Your invariable modus operandi.

2) I reported it and received a sneering reply. PubPeer now violates its own stated ethics, and every ethic of science. Comment threads there are no longer trustworthy.

3) In which case you don’t understand the usage. Systematic measurement error is deterministic, not random. The correlation of field meteorological station temperature and SST measurements is entirely unknown. And for past measurements, unknowable.

4) Bevington calls it “the error of the estimate μ’ of the mean” You’ve been systematically misrepresenting his explanation since day 1.

5) The distributions are unknown, and for past measurements, unknowable.

6) Added on no good grounds. Beall’s criteria of judgment applied to Frontiers would obviate virtually every journal extant, including Nature and Science.

You make the reputational argument classic of one who has no analytical case.

Beall, in any case, is not a pope of verity. He hasn’t the divine grant of infallibility that you, in your eagerness, endow him.

bdgwx
Reply to  Pat Frank
January 10, 2024 6:34 pm

No, it’s not.

First…yes it is. Second…you missed the salient point. You can’t just change the units from W/m2 to W/m2.year so that you can then justify multiplying by years.

PubPeer now violates its own stated ethics, and every ethic of science.

What was the content of the posts that were removed?

The correlation of field meteorological station temperature and SST measurements is entirely unknown.

First…if you don’t know what the correlation is then the last thing you want to do is assume it is r = 1 because as I said is an implicit statement that you think there is no component arising from random effects. More importantly…that does not justify your use of the wrong formula.

Bevington calls it “the error of the estimate μ’ of the mean” 

He does no such thing. I think you need reread the section on Relative Uncertainty. Read it carefully this time. And if you have any doubts then follow example 4.2 which makes it unequivocally clear that 1) equation 4.22 and 4.23 is for relative uncertainty and 2) that 4.22 is but an intermediate step that is required for 4.23.

The distributions are unknown, and for past measurements, unknowable.

First…that’s not true. Second…it’s moot since as JCGM 100:2008 and Bevington say you can combine uncertainty regardless of the distribution as long as you do so using the standard deviation of the distribution.

He hasn’t the divine grant of infallibility that you, in your eagerness, endow him.

First…I didn’t mention Beall or his list. Second…my point is only that you are a victim because you didn’t get the same quality of review as you would have with a more reputable journal. In the future I recommend submitting your work to a journal that has a history of quality reviews and the desire to issue retraction if they failed to find an egregious mistake.

Reply to  bdgwx
January 10, 2024 10:00 pm

1) You still can’t grasp annual mean.
2) Wait for it
3) No correlations in per-measurement uncertainty.
4) That was a direct quote
5) It is true. As you claim not, then tell us what the distribution of error was in historical temperatures from, let’s see: Bergen.
6) My 2019 reviewers were Davide Zanchettin and Carl Wunsch. It’s so nice to see that your need to contradict provides you justification to derogate first rank scientists. You’re a quality guy, bdgwx.

bdgwx
Reply to  Pat Frank
January 11, 2024 6:14 am

1) You still can’t grasp annual mean

I could be the dumbest person on the planet. That still doesn’t justify changing the units from W/m2 to W/m2.year.

3) No correlations in per-measurement uncertainty.

If you think r = 0 then a) you are implicitly stating there is no systematic error between measurements and b) your formula does not follow from the law of propagation of uncertainty.

4) That was a direct quote

No it was not. What he said is “To find the error in the estimate μ’ of the mean we must calculate a weighted average variance of the data: σ^2 = (Σ[wi*xi^2]/Σ[wi] – μ’^2) * N/(N-1) (4.22) where the last factor corrects for the fact that the mean μ’ was itself determined from the data. We may recognize the expression in brackets as the difference between the weighted average of the squares of our measurements xi and the square of the weighted average. The variance of the mean can then be determined by substituting the expression σ^2 from Equation 4.22 into Equation 4.14: σ_μ^2 = σ/N (4.23).

And in example 4.2 he says “To find the error in the mean the student could calculate σ from here data by Equation 4.22 and use Equation 4.23 to estimate σ_μ.”

5) ..then tell us what the distribution of error was in historical temperatures from

I don’t have to. That’s the point. All I need to know is the standard uncertainty. It doesn’t matter if the individual measurement uncertainty distribution is rectangular, triangular, or something else. When you randomly select a sample from those distributions it tends towards a gaussian distribution regardless.

6) My 2019 reviewers were Davide Zanchettin and Carl Wunsch. It’s so nice to see that your need to contradict provides you justification to derogate first rank scientists.

I’m not derogating anyone. I’m sure both reviewers are fine people. But this proves my point. Carl Wunsch didn’t review the final form of your paper and as such retracted his endorsement. You question his identity and taunt him all the while claiming that only 3 people in the world understood it (including Wunsch who doesn’t endorse it). So Frontiers published your paper with only a single endorsement who just happens to be the only other guy in the world that understands it.

Reply to  bdgwx
January 11, 2024 9:27 am

1) “That still doesn’t justify” [∑(20 years of measurements)/20 years] = average measurement magnitude/year. 5th grade math and you don’t get it. Incredible

2) What is the r of a per-measurement instrumental uncertainty statistic, bdgwx?

3) Yes it was, by direct inspection. Quoting additional material changes nothing, Eqns. 4(14) and 4(23) are valid only when the error is normally distributed. Your own personal trip-hazard. You never fail to fall over it.

4) Assuming your conclusion on the grounds of no evidence. A perfect paradigm for your approach to everything,

5) Carl Wunsch agreed with the analysis. Even what you blindly call his retraction included approval, namely, “the version that I finally agreed to, there were some interesting and useful descriptions of the behavior of climate models run in predictive mode. … I thought the version I did see raised important questions, rarely discussed, of the presence of both systematic and random walk errors in models run in predictive mode and that some discussion of these issues might be worthwhile.

Further, there was a third round with reviewer Zanchettin after Carl Wunsch signed off. That was the source of the changes he noted.

bdgwx
Reply to  Pat Frank
January 11, 2024 10:30 am

1) The part I don’t get is how you apparently got a different 5th grade education than everyone else. The average of any sample retains the same units as the individual elements in the sample. You don’t even follow your own erroneous rule consistently in your own work (for example [Frank 2023] equation 5 and 6) so I question your conviction on this matter.

2) I don’t know the exact r value of the individual measurements. But I can say definitively that it is not negative, 0, or 1. That means it is somewhere between 0 and 1 which means the combined uncertainty of the mean is lower than the uncertainty of the individual measurements that went into that mean.

3) First…the goalpost was that 4.22 was the equation for the uncertainty of the mean which Bevington would say is unequivocally wrong. Second…your new goalpost that uncertainty propagation via 4.14 and 4.23 only works for normal distributions is just patently false as can be easily shown with the NIST uncertainty machine.

4) My evidence is JCGM 100:2008.

5) And what did those reviewers say when told about the change from W/m2 to W/m2.year?

Reply to  bdgwx
January 11, 2024 6:33 pm

1) 10 tables, 100 apples averages 10 apples per table. Some higher math for you.

2) An answer proving you don’t understand the analysis — likely you haven’t read the paper. I’ll be generous. A per-measurement uncertainty is discrete and solitary.

3) Tell you what, bdgwx, the σ² denominator in 4.22 is (N-1). The σ² denominator in 4.14 and 4.23 is N. Explain how Bevington justifies swapping out the (N-1) denominator and replacing it with N.

The math is all worked out in Section 2 of the 2010 paper you so love to misunderstand, and likely have not fully read, either.

4) JCGM. That’s rich. You must have missed Section C.3.2 Variance, which begins: “The variance of a random variable…” The derivation is identical to Bevington’s.

Bevington likewise notes that his derivations apply to random variables. At the end of Section 1.3: “… we shall be concerned mainly with distributions that result from statistical errors and for which the variance exists.”
I.e., random variables. The only sort of variables that allow closed-form statistics. That condition applies to his entire book.

5) Unmentioned by 35 reviewers of 13 submissions over 6 years. Including Carl Wunsch and Davide Zanchettin. Not one made your mistake. They all understood the meaning of “annual mean,” which you very clearly do not.

And just in case you’re tempted to take up the 6-year talking point: Are Climate Modelers Scientists?

bdgwx
Reply to  Pat Frank
January 12, 2024 6:56 am

1) You were already told why your apples example is not analogous to temperatures in the PubPeer thread. Again…it is because that is an example of a rate. If you add 12 tables you get 120 more applies. A mean temperature is not a rate. The latest UAH TLT value of 0.83 C is just that C. It is not 0.83 C per month. It is a fact so intuitive that trying to upscale it by a factor of 12 to convert it to per year yields the comical value of 0.83 C/month * 12 months/year = 9.96 C/year. See the problem?

2) Temperature measurements are not solitary though. The error in the measurement at time T is going to have some correlation with the error at T + 10s. This is why the uncertainty in the 5-minute reports from ASOS stations do not scale as 1/sqrt(30).

3) 4.22 is the formula for variance σ^2 with weightings. It is not unlike 4.13 which is the formula for standard deviation σ without weightings He uses N-1 for both because they are for a sample as opposed to a population. 4.14 and 4.23 are the formulas for the uncertainty of the mean σ_μ. They divide by N because the partial derivative ∂f/∂x = 1/N when f is a function that computes the mean. He even tells you how it is done in the lead up to equation 4.14. Also notice that the symbol σ is the “estimate of the standard deviation of the population” while σ_u is the “standard deviation of the mean, or standard error”. If want to know the uncertainty of the mean you need to use an equation from Bevington with σ_u (not σ) on the left hand side.

4) Yes. I am aware of what variance is. And of course the derivation is identical to Bevington because they (and everyone else) agrees on what variance is. They (and everyone else) also agrees that the variance of the mean (which is different than the variance of the random variable itself) is given by σ^2/N.

5) When I get time I’ll email Zanchettin and Wunsch and see what they have to say on the matter.

Reply to  bdgwx
January 12, 2024 5:11 pm

1) Laughably wrong. Averages are not vectors.

2) The focus is the instrument, not the temperature. You haven’t understood anything of the analysis.

3.1) The wᵢ=1 throughout.
3.2) Bevington uses N-1 because a DOF is lost in calculating μ’.
3.3) They can divide by N because the error is strictly random, which justifies the substitution. Unjustified when the error is systematic.

4) The point is the the equations are for random error. My entire paper deals with non-normal systematic error.

5) Very astute. Neither scientist was a reviewer on LiG Met. — the paper commanding your attention. You’re not paying attention at all, bdgwx.

bdgwx
Reply to  Pat Frank
January 12, 2024 6:20 pm

1) I didn’t say averages were vectors.

2) There is correlation between measurements precisely because those measurements are from the same instrument or at least same type of instrument.

3.1) If you are assuming wi=1 then 4.22 simplifies to the standard variance formula for a sample. Why use 4.22 at all?

3.2) Nope. He use N-1 because he uses the sample (as opposed to population) form of the variance equation.

3.3) Yes. That’s correct. 3.13 simplifies to σ_μ^2 = σ^2/N when the function f = Σ[xi]/N and when there is no correlation (r = 0) because it leaves only the partial derivative terms. It simplifies to σ_μ^2 = σ^2 when the correlation is maximized (r = 1). That’s moot though because 4.22 isn’t an equation for σ_μ^2; it’s an equation for σ^2 which means it cannot be used regardless of whether you think the error is entirely random (r = 0) or entirely systematic (r = 1) or somewhere in between.

4) That’s just patently false. The equations are for variance. That are not for error/uncertainty at all regardless of whether it is random or systematic.

5) This topic was in regards to [Frank 2019].

Reply to  bdgwx
January 13, 2024 11:05 am

1) Vector: Yes you did A physical rate is a vector. An average is not.

2) The point doesn’t concern the measurements. It concerns the instrument. You don’t understand that, which is why your entire approach is wrong. Apart from the fact that you don’t get the logic of the analysis, either.

3.3) The error is systematic, not random. The assumption of random is violated. The math changes. You’ve never figured that out, either.

4.1) You’re declaring my paper is not about systematic error? An F for you and go to the back of the class.
4.2) Variance is (±uncertainty)². Leave this class, head down the hall to the remedial group.

5) In that case you’re conflating papers because the 2019 paper does not concern temperature measurement error at all.

bdgwx
Reply to  Pat Frank
January 13, 2024 2:36 pm

1) No I did not. First…not all rates are vectors. Second…that’s moot because I specifically said an average temperature is NOT a rate. I’ll repeat…a monthly or annual global average temperature is NOT a rate. I’m going to tell you what I tell everyone else. Don’t expect me to defend the arguments your created especially when they are absurd.

2) I get it Pat. You don’t think I understand anything. You think I have a neurological disorder and that I’m incompetent. You’ve made that abundantly clear. That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that measurements are correlated with each other precisely because some of them come from the same instrument type or even the same instrument itself.

3.3) In the real world the error in a single measurement is both systematic AND random. It’s not one or the other. It is both. And as such to analyze uncertainty correctly you should consider both meaning that you need to consider the covariance between measurements per the law of propagation of uncertainty. Not only did you not do that; you didn’t use the law of propagation of uncertainty or even one of the derivations of it. All you did was use the formula for the variance (or standard deviation) of a sample and assumed in contradiction to what Bevington, JCGM, and everyone else says that it also applies the uncertainty of the mean which it does not.

4.1) No I’m not. I’m declaring your paper used the wrong formula. You used the wrong formula regardless of whether you think the error you are analyzing is systematic or random or both. It doesn’t matter. You used the wrong formula regardless.

4.2) Not it is not. In the context of a measurement model that computes the mean the variance of the sample is NOT uncertainty. Bevington, JCGM, and everyone else make that abundantly clear. You use the variance as an intermediate step in determining the uncertainty, but it is not itself the uncertainty. Look at Bevington 4.22 and 4.23 again. 4.22 computes the variance of the sample σ^2. 4.23 uses the variance of the sample σ^2 to compute the uncertainty (or standard error) of the mean σ_μ.

Reply to  bdgwx
January 14, 2024 4:45 pm

1.1) “No I did not.”

Yes you did: “because that [per table average] is an example of a rate.

1.2) “First…not all rates are vectors.”

All rates are velocities. Every velocity is a vector.

1.3) “arguments your created

Nick Stokes created that argument in reference to ±4Wm⁻²yr⁻¹. He claimed that’s a rate. You’ve claimed it’s a rate. So-called Piper chuarense on PubPeer claimed C/time is a rate. And you re-used his example, which is suggestive.

Just to add, your 0.83 C example misrepresents a sum of discrete months. Your 0.83C/month should be 0.83C/month_1.

Multiplying that by 12 months is wrong. The 12 months of the year are month_1…month_6…month_12. These units do not cancel with a generic month dimension.

2) “I get it Pat.”

After your ‘poor me’ interlude, you show once again you don’t get it. You go on about measurements. Instrumental resolution is not a measurement. The statistics of measurement correlation do not apply.

3.3) Nowhere in LiG Met. do I consider the error of a single measurement. You’ve mistaken the meaning of instrumental resolution uncertainty, which applies uniquely to every measurement. But it’s not an uncertainty rooted in the measurement itself.

And once again, Lig Met. eqns 4-6 are used to calculate the mean of uncertainty due to instrumental resolution. You continually misrepresent that work; supposing it to intend the uncertainty of the mean. it doesn’t. It’s not.

Your argument is entirely misapplied. irrelevant. A non-sequitur. But, hey, you get it.

4.1) “I’m declaring your paper used the wrong formula.”

Declaring. Eminently undemonstrated. You have invariably misunderstood and misrepresented that part of the paper. 

I’ve explained it repeatedly. You never understand. You merely repeat your wrong-headed idée fixe. I despair you’ll ever see the light.

4.2) “4.23 uses the variance of the sample σ^2 to compute the uncertainty (or standard error) of the mean σ_μ.”

The sample strictly consisting of random variables. Systematic error is not random. Bevington 4.23 does not apply. You never get that, either. Try staring at 2010 Section 2 for a long time.

bdgwx
Reply to  Pat Frank
January 14, 2024 6:40 pm

Yes you did: “because that [per table average] is an example of a rate.

I’m not the one who created this scenario. You did. You literally described it as “10 apples per table”. Those are your words; not mine. And the whole vector thing came from you; not me.

All rates are velocities.

C/year, j/s, and points/game are examples of rates that are not vectors.

Nick Stokes created that argument in reference to ±4Wm⁻²yr⁻¹. He claimed that’s a rate. You’ve claimed it’s a rate.

That is because it is a rate. It is the change in W/m2 per year.

Just to add, your 0.83 C example misrepresents a sum of discrete months. Your 0.83C/month should be 0.83C/month_1.

It’s 0.83 C for a month. It’s not 0.83 C per month. That’s why we keep the units as C as opposed to C/month.

Lig Met. eqns 4-6 are used to calculate the mean of uncertainty due to instrumental resolution.

No body cares about the “mean of uncertainty” (or Σ[u(x)]/N). The only thing that matters is the “uncertainty of the mean” (or u(Σ[x]/N]).

You continually misrepresent that work; supposing it to intend the uncertainty of the mean. it doesn’t. It’s not.

Then that’s your problem right there.

You have invariably misunderstood and misrepresented that part of the paper. 

Then you have deceived your audience. If you never intended to estimate the uncertainty of the mean temperature then you should be advertising it as if you did.

The sample strictly consisting of random variables. Systematic error is not random. Bevington 4.23 does not apply.

4.22 does not apply either. It’s not the uncertainty of anything. It’s just the weighted average variance of the sample. At least with 4.23 it is actually the uncertainty of the mean when there is no covariance (r = 0).

Reply to  bdgwx
January 15, 2024 12:49 pm

This is all so tedious. Here is a ppt discussion of vectors and scalars for you.

Notice that the scalar — the instantaneous magnitude — has the same dimensions as the vector. But a scalar is not a vector.

On encountering a metric, determining which of the two it is — vector or scalar — requires knowing and understanding the physical context.

Your entire argument shows insensitivity to context. Averages are scalars.

It is the change in W/m2 per year.

±4Wm⁻² is a statistic. Nothing physically changes.

It’s 0.83 C for a month.

It’s 0.83 C for that month.

Then that’s your problem right there.

Given the physical limit of instrumental resolution, instrumental non-linearity of response, and the uncertainty due to the visual acuity of the observer …

Explain how you’d calculate the mean instrumental uncertainty per LiG thermometer measurement — a property of the instrument present in the instrument before any measurement is taken.

It’s very, very clear that you’ve never studied the paper for understanding.

advertising

LiG Met Section 4.2: Resolution Limits
The lower limit of resolution of LiG thermometers has been neglected during construction of the global air-temperature record. High-quality LiG thermometers scored to 1°C or 1°F per division have an instrumental lower limit of resolution 2σ = ±0.11 C/F.”

“This ±0.382 C represents the field-conditions lower limit of visually-read resolution-limited 2σ uncertainty to be assigned to any global daily mean land-surface meteorological LiG air temperature.”

Spirit LiG thermometers provide about half the accuracy of the mercury LiG counterpart, yielding a per-measurement 1σ = ±0.309 °C/°F (cf. Section 3.1.1, Table 1). The lower limit of uncertainty in any Tmin and Tmax land-surface air temperature prior to 1981 consists of the detection limit and the visual repeatability (cf. Table 1) combined in quadrature with the uncertainty due to non-linearity (Table 7).” My emphasis throughout.

You have never read the paper with attention or care.

4.22 does not apply either. It’s not the uncertainty of anything. It’s just the weighted average variance of the sample.

Bevington: “To find the error in the estimate μ’ … we must calculate a weighted average variance of the data:” eqn. 4.22 follows. (italics in original)

Wikipedia: “The variance of a random variable X is the expected value of the squared deviation from the mean of X,μ = E[ X ] … The standard deviation is obtained as the square root of the variance.”

Wikipedia: “… the standard deviation is a measure of the amount of variation of a random variable expected about its mean.

“The standard deviation of a random variable, sample, statistical population, data set, or probability distribution is the square root of its variance. (emphasis added)

“Standard deviation may serve as a measure of uncertainty. In physical science, for example, the reported standard deviation of a group of repeated measurements gives the precision of those measurements.” (emphasis added)

You’re wrong, bdgwx. Give it up.

Reply to  bdgwx
January 12, 2024 1:26 am

Showing your incompetence, YET AGAIN, bd-eyes….. why do that ???

Reply to  bnice2000
January 14, 2024 8:38 am

Were you to pay the attention to the detail demanded of the ordinary Climateball player, Mr. Nice, you’d quickly discover your performance is predictively worthless.

Reply to  bdgwx
January 12, 2024 1:34 am

You have been preyed on by the climate scammers all your life..

…. totally unawares.

It is a really sad state for you to be in. !

Reply to  bnice2000
January 12, 2024 11:41 pm

It is clear that your education is deficient, Mr. Nice.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 10, 2024 10:44 am

As I said.. bd is too incompetent to understand…

and too lacking in integrity to accept his incompetence.

bdgwx
Reply to  Pat Frank
January 10, 2024 10:45 am

And don’t think I didn’t notice the irony of you lecturing others on civility followed by an implication that I have a “neurological disorder” and that I have a “incompetent fixation” and “ignorant fixation” and that I’m “thick”. I don’t care about the ad-hominem Pat. In fact, I’ll always defend your right to call me whatever you want and I’ll do so without reciprocating your behavior. That’s not my point. My point is that you undermine your own credibility and moral compass when you do the very thing for which you rebuke others.

Reply to  bdgwx
January 10, 2024 2:33 pm

You undermine any respect for your intellectual integrity by displaying an adamantine ignorance.

We’ve been over this ground repeatedly. I’ve explained it all to you in detail. Many times. Explanations that have satisfied physicists.

Nevertheless you lose no opportunity to raise the identical mistaken objections yet again.

What can this obsessive questioning reflect but an unhealthy fixation? What can be the cause but inability or dishonesty?

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 10, 2024 5:20 pm

Your resistance to grasping any of this is understandable in a pragmatic sense.

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 10:03 pm

Willard scores another vacuous goal.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 10, 2024 10:49 pm

Never have I ever encountered such incompetence so often repeated.

Reply to  Willard
January 11, 2024 9:29 am

Dodge as you might, falsification hurts doesn’t it Willard. Tough.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 11, 2024 9:56 am

You provided no objective criticism.

Reply to  Willard
January 11, 2024 9:13 pm

How would you know?

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 11, 2024 11:37 pm

Your entire attack was baseless.

Reply to  Willard
January 12, 2024 1:23 am

Your entire series of posts here is utterly baseless and meaningless. !

Its the ONLY thing you are capable of.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 12, 2024 10:50 am

This is not rocket science, Mr. Nice.

Reply to  Willard
January 12, 2024 5:13 pm

The attacks on my paper are base. Your comments are vacuous.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 12, 2024 9:51 pm

That’s your logic, Pat. It produces utter nonsense.

Reply to  Willard
January 13, 2024 11:07 am

Oracular dismissal. The only stick in the alarmist armamentum.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 13, 2024 2:26 pm

Insistent repetition of fatuous criticisms does not make them correct, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 14, 2024 4:47 pm

What fatuous criticism, Willard?

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 14, 2024 5:16 pm

I have explained this problem many, many times, Pat. None of you people ever get it, even though the concepts are obvious.

Reply to  Willard
January 15, 2024 2:27 pm

Yet another vague declamation. You have invariably failed to explain,

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 15, 2024 4:03 pm

Never could I have conceived before that, that PhD people who fancied themselves scientists could be so poorly trained as Climateball players.

Reply to  Willard
January 17, 2024 12:57 pm

who fancied themselves scientists

I spent my career as scientific staff jointly at the SLAC National Accelerator Laboratory and the Department of Chemistry, Stanford University.

I averaged about 1.5 peer-reviewed and published papers per year and had international collaborators.

How about you, Ken?

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 17, 2024 1:29 pm

We can’t have an argument from you, Pat, can we. Your grand schemes would reveal themselves empty of meaning. Your very persona would be threatened.

Reply to  Willard
January 17, 2024 3:21 pm

What grand schemes, Ken?

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 17, 2024 5:58 pm

That’s how the contrarian frenzy has corroded freedom of speech and thought in our social media, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 18, 2024 6:16 am

What “how,” Ken?

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 18, 2024 7:48 am

It’s clear you don’t understand that politics is not science, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 19, 2024 12:43 pm

As you don’t understand the basics of my paper, Ken, your criticisms can therefore not stem from science.

Clearly absent science, what, then, motivates them?

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 19, 2024 4:27 pm

This lack of understanding on the part of you and your like has removed contrarians from the realm of science and put it into a warm little pond of Climateball, Pat, where everything — your comments and the Earth itself — follows closed form egotism, Pat. There, Pat, you are free from the cold waters of critical empiricism,

Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 20, 2024 6:28 am

Climate modeling papers are invariably published without any valid physical error analysis. The authors, as well as you, Ken, insist precision is accuracy, statistics is physics, and ± indicates physical oscillation. Physical reliability is a foreign concept. Exposure educes hostility.

Your criticism is demonstrated wrong and never corrected. That’s your “critical empiricism.”

And then you claim I live in a warm little pond. Rich but inadvertent irony.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 20, 2024 8:03 am

I’ll reply in more detail later, Pat, when I’ve more time.

But in the meantime, Pat, it is fair to observe that you still give no indication of having read the post you criticize.

Reply to  Willard
January 21, 2024 12:07 pm

I gave indication here, Ken.

I’ve seen your detailed replies. They’re not worth reiterating.

Reply to  Willard
January 12, 2024 1:25 am

You obviously don’t look in the mirror.. evah.

I can complete understand why.

Would make you puke !!

Reply to  bnice2000
January 12, 2024 10:51 am

All you’ve done is make spurious comments, Mr. Nice.

Reply to  bdgwx
January 12, 2024 1:26 am

You are what you are, bd.. a scientific incompetant !!

No-one can help you with that.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 12, 2024 6:35 am

“incompetant”

Too good to pass up. In general, I disdain Cliffie Claviners, but this is right up there with, “Before, ah didden even no how to spill unginer, an now I are one”.

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 9:11 pm

Because the bdgwx fool wouldn’t understand it…(has been proven)

… so why should Pat waste his time… again..

Reply to  bnice2000
January 9, 2024 10:01 pm

qltm

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 9:23 am

Answered. Merely for the umpteenth time. bdgwx displays all the attributes of ignorant fixation.

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 10:39 pm

Right, Willard. You don’t know and lack the integrity to be civil about it.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 9, 2024 11:02 pm

Most beloved Pat,

You really are not placed to indulge into civility porn.

Speaking of which, I know enough formal chaps to recognize integrity when I see it. BDGWX has integrity. You don’t.

Reply to  Willard
January 9, 2024 11:38 pm

bdgwx has the scientific integrity of a sewer rat…. basically NONE.

And you are several layers of sewer below him.

You wouldn’t know “integrity” if it slapped you in the face. !

You know that. We all know that.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 10, 2024 7:26 am

Good morning, Mr. Nice.

Still here?

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 4:48 am

I don’t do down votes, but that comment about Pat Frank deserves a down vote.

I didn’t down vote you. This is my down vote.

Reply to  Tom Abbott
January 10, 2024 7:29 am

Thank you, Tom. This means all the world to me.

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 9:19 am

Right, Willard. You don’t know and lack the integrity to be civil about it.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 10, 2024 11:04 am

You already said that, Pat.

Here’s the deal. Suppose I only reply to you using phrases you yourself used on that page:

https://pubpeer.com/publications/391B1C150212A84C6051D7A2A7F119

Will that suffice to be civil to you?

Cheers.

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 2:33 pm

Thus spake Willard.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 10, 2024 2:40 pm

Maybe Pat should be more explicit in what he does mean.

Reply to  Willard
January 11, 2024 9:31 am

Perhaps you’re solitary in missing the meaning, Willard.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 11, 2024 10:27 am

At the end, that insubstantial cavil of a comment, if it is really from Pat Frank, will stick with him, but not with me.

Reply to  Willard
January 12, 2024 1:22 am

Nothing stick to oozing slime !!

Reply to  bnice2000
January 12, 2024 8:21 am

Your dismissal may be a black mark against your powers of perception, Mr. Nice.

Reply to  Willard
January 12, 2024 5:14 pm

Right up there with, I know you are but what am I? Ever so clever, Willard.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 12, 2024 9:53 pm

Scientists debate evidence and theory. Politicized hacks construct straw man arguments, cast baseless aspersions, and assassinate character. That describes your attack, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 13, 2024 11:09 am

What attack, Willard?

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 13, 2024 2:25 pm

You clearly do not understand personal attacks.

Reply to  Willard
January 14, 2024 4:48 pm

What personal attack, Willard?

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 14, 2024 5:16 pm

You people live in science-fantasyland, Pat, making all sorts of self-serving assumptions about Climateball that make your life easy.

Reply to  Willard
January 15, 2024 2:29 pm

Point out the ease-making assumptions here, Willard. Or here,

Waiting …

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 15, 2024 4:04 pm

First, an argument from authority. Next, an argument from incredulity. Both invalid, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 17, 2024 12:58 pm

It’s an argument from demonstrate your case, Ken.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 17, 2024 1:30 pm

I wonder who Mr. Nice is. Whoever it is has a problem with negligent superficiality, which Pat apparently found inspiring.

Reply to  Willard
January 17, 2024 3:23 pm

Pure whataboutism.The behavior of others doesn’t absolve you, Ken.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 17, 2024 5:59 pm

I have consulted your comments, Pat. I have read your explanations. They appear to make no sense whatsoever

Reply to  Willard
January 18, 2024 6:17 am

Given the poor quality of your thought, that’s no surprise, Ken.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 18, 2024 7:48 am

Pat, your comments have descended into accusatory nonsense, showing no evidence of actually following the logic of the conversation.

Reply to  Willard
January 19, 2024 12:45 pm

The logic of the conversation is that you don’t know what you’re talking about, Ken.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 19, 2024 10:37 pm

Look, Pat,

I’m not going to play 20 questions with you, Pat.

If you want to critique my comments, Pat, do so.

But I don’t have the time or inclination to play any other game than Climateball,

Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 20, 2024 6:42 am

I don’t have the time or inclination to play any other game than Climateball,

You invented it. Ken.

No one sane is interested in that game. You’re free to leave any time. And take your marbles with you.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 20, 2024 8:05 am

You continue to make criticisms consistent with a conclusion that you have never read the post, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 21, 2024 12:08 pm

You continue like a record with a monotonous track, Ken.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 21, 2024 1:32 pm

Your “Ken” is a chimera, Pat.

Vacuousness, Pat. 

That’s all you’ve offered,

Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 22, 2024 10:59 am

Except for this, which you’ve fled.

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 22, 2024 5:49 pm

Science is not Philosophy, Pat.

Reply to  Willard
January 22, 2024 9:26 pm

And fled it again.

Reply to  Willard
January 10, 2024 3:06 pm

Just go away, you loser.

Reply to  Graemethecat
January 10, 2024 3:26 pm

You should look back at your comments here.

Reply to  Willard
January 12, 2024 1:22 am

Pathetic little willard .. still yapping away.

So funny

Like a 5-year-old having a tanty !!

Reply to  bnice2000
January 12, 2024 8:00 am

Oh, Mr. Nice.

I don’t think “you” means what you make it mean.

mews
January 9, 2024 11:56 am

The Irish broadcaster RTE invited him to debate on their PrimeTime news program back in 2016. He wiped the floor with the alarmist NGOs and was never invited back. RTE are now are a CCNOW partner, and completely untrustworthy when it comes to reporting climate issues.

Professor Ray Bates was the only one on that program who was qualified to speak. The Irish weather forecasting service Met Eireann also paid tribe to him. See here: https://www.met.ie/prof-ray-bates-1940-2024

Since RTE tow the government line, in recent years he has given presentations elsewhere

alastairgray29yahoocom
January 9, 2024 1:00 pm

woudn’t it be nice if Michael Mann or Gavin Schmidt could summon up a little bet of grace and humility and maybe even show a willingnesss to discuss

Reply to  alastairgray29yahoocom
January 10, 2024 4:51 am

To discuss what? Their dishonesty? I don’t think they are willing to discuss their dishonesty. They want to hide it, instead.

Bob
January 9, 2024 2:06 pm

Very nice.

January 9, 2024 2:51 pm

A wonderful story, Christopher. It conveys that Ray Bates was a joy to know. My loss. But I do know you. 😉

A suggestion if I might. That is, to dedicate your paper to the memory of Ray Bates.

I dedicated (2019) Propagation… to the memory of Bob Carter, who was also a toweringly ethical scientist and a fine man. And I remain happy at having taken that opportunity to commend him.

Thank-you for gifting us with that great, “ancient truth that he who changes his mind when the evidence requires it provides irrefutable proof that he has a mind.”

It ranks right up there with your marvelous, “have the courage to do nothing.”

Reply to  Pat Frank
January 9, 2024 4:55 pm

There are many AGW apostles, echolytes, hangers-on, stooges etc… who will never change their minds, despite knowing that they have a total lack of actual science to back up their belief.

This is proof that they don’t have much cognitive functionality of their own.

January 10, 2024 4:58 am

From the article: “I discovered, and named, the Pause. From 1997 to 2015, a period of almost 19 years, there was no global warming at all. Yet the vast majority of the world’s news media had kept this fact secret.”

The world’s news media was too busy during that time proclaiming one year after another as being the “hottest year ever!”, based on the lies they were being told by NASA Climate and NOAA.

The UAH satellite chart shows NO years between 1998 and 2015 were warmer than 1998, so going by that chart, noone can claim that any year between the year 1999 and 2015 was the hottest year ever.

Yet NASA Climate and NOAA rigged their surface temperature charts to eck out just a little warmer temperature each year during that time span so they could continue the lie that CO2 is making things hotter and hotter and hotter, by pretending the temperatures were getting hotter and hotter and hotter.

Temperature Data Mannipulators will not stand the test of time. At some point, they will be seen for the liars they really are.

bdgwx
Reply to  Tom Abbott
January 10, 2024 1:43 pm

By your definition UAH is ran by “Temperature Data Mannipulators” so I fail to see how using it is going to sway someone’s opinion regarding your point. BTW…insinuating that Dr. Spencer and Dr. Christy are liars is pretty harsh. I’ve not seen convincing evidence that they lied as part of publishing UAH.

Reply to  bdgwx
January 10, 2024 4:54 pm

“By your definition UAH is ran (sic)”

Basic English grammar is clearly not your thing.

bdgwx
Reply to  Graemethecat
January 10, 2024 5:57 pm

No it definitely is not.

Reply to  bdgwx
January 12, 2024 1:20 am

Neither is anything remotely related to science.

Reply to  bnice2000
January 12, 2024 11:15 am

Wrong.

You clearly do not understand bdgwx’ points.