By Christopher Monckton of Brenchley

Professor Ray Bates
One of the most unpleasant utterances of the climate Communists is that all they have to do is wait and all the skeptics will die, one by one. One of the greatest of us, Professor Ray Bates, former deputy director of Met Éireann, former Branch Head of NASA’s Laboratory for Atmospheres in Goddard, Maryland; Emeritus Professor of Meteorology at the University of Copenhagen and most recently Adjunct Professor of Meteorology at University College Dublin from 2004 to 2023, has died peacefully at Blackrock Hospice, Ireland.
His first wife Ziara died in 2003. His second wife Natasha, to whom he was devoted, survives him, as do his siblings Trish, Eugene, Billy, Declan, Kathleen, Dick and Margaret.
Ray Bates was one of those outstanding, enquiring minds that used to make the sciences endlessly fascinating. I first came across him a decade ago at a dinner in Galway, on the west coast of Ireland, before we were to debate the climate question before the members of the Law Society of Ireland.
Even in those days, when one could still get a debate on climate change, it was not going to be one on one. Our hosts decided that to balance the Moncktonian case against the climate-change nonsense there should be not one but two upholders of the Party Line. My second opponent, who was also at dinner, shall remain faceless and nameless, for he was a mere drone, slavishly parroting the pusillanimous pietisms of the Party and contributing nothing of any lasting intellectual interest.
Ray Bates was instantly and visibly different. The word most often use of him by those who knew him and came to love him was “gentleman”. There was an unaffected courtliness about his beaming smile and his relentless, softly-spoken charm. He never spoke an unkind word about anyone. I forget what we talked about at dinner, but it had very little to do with the climate. He became a friend at once.
At the debate, after all three of us had spoken, the first question, from a climate Communist with the characteristic hatchet face, unsatisfactory wardrobe and sullen, grouchy manner, was addressed to Ray Bates. Why, he said, had Professor Bates been willing to lower himself to debate Monckton, whom everyone knew to be a nitwit, or indeed to debate anyone on the settled science of climate change?
Ray went up to the microphone, beamed contentedly at Worst-Dressed Man of The Year and said, “It should be as obvious to everyone here as it is to me that Monckton is profoundly knowledgeable on the climate question, and that it is I who am going to have to reconsider my position.”
You could have heard a pin drop. The climate Communist went white and collapsed untidily into his seat. The group of fellow-Communists in his row looked dismal.
For what they had not realized is that Ray Bates was intellectually honest. His particular specialism in the climate-sensitivity field was the application to climate of feedback analysis from control theory, a branch of rocket science in engineering physics.
Like every control theorist to whom my team’s result has come, Ray realized at once that the points I had raised could not simply be dismissed.
He wrote to me after the debate and asked me to send him the then early draft of our paper on the feedback issue. He went quite for a week or two and then got in touch. He had physically cut up the paper and lined up all the diagrams to match them with points in the text that interested him. He soon got the point, and, from then on, became a climate skeptic.
One of the many reasons why he and I got on so well is that I had undergone a similar conversio morum on the climate question. I had originally gone along with the Party Line, and had even appeared on the most popular TV chat-show in the UK, the Clive James Show, to explain how the greenhouse effect works, sticking my finger into a glass of water to demonstrate it. As far as anyone can discover, that was the first time it had been described on British television.
But then I had written a model to take the monthly global temperature data from the various datasets and plot the trend. Practically no one else was doing that. There was endless talk about global warming, but no one was letting us in on the secret or how much (or, rather, how little) global warming was actually happening.
I discovered, and named, the Pause. From 1997 to 2015, a period of almost 19 years, there was no global warming at all. Yet the vast majority of the world’s news media had kept this fact secret. On seeing the temperature plot emerge on the screen as a least-squares linear-regression trend that was horizontal, I realized the world was being fooled.
I wondered why the world had not been warming for so long. For the greenhouse effect is a real effect. Why was it not warming the planet at even half the long-predicted medium-term 0.3 K/decade? That is why I began to investigate feedbacks, since feedback response constitutes three-fifths of midrange predicted warming.
At our meetings from time to time since the Galway debate, we would often talk with sadness of those in the scientific community who were unwilling to think for themselves but were instead wedded to the Party Line because it was temporarily fashionable and undemandingly safe.
Ray was one of many who quietly encouraged me and my team in our research, and he was among the many distinguished scientists, from Freeman Dyson to Will Happer, who had generously given us their time and support when no one else wanted to know. From time to time he would send me his own learned papers and ask for my comments before he submitted them.
Ray Bates, then, dazzlingly and publicly exemplified the ancient truth that he who changes his mind when the evidence requires it provides irrefutable proof that he has a mind.
How, then, shall we honor the memory of that great man?
What I propose is this. We have now been working on our research for close to a decade. We submit that our result is no longer in doubt. It is not at all likely that global warming will be large enough or rapid enough to do net harm. Yet the journals of climatology will not publish our paper, not because it is wrong but because it is – to coin a phrase – the inconvenient truth. We have had some hilariously dopey reviews.
Therefore, if there are any learned readers of WattsUpWithThat who are curious, and would like to read our paper and give me any comments they would like to make, they can honor the memory of Ray Bates by doing what he did, asking for a copy of our paper, reading it, thinking about it and then letting us know whether we are right and, if so, how we can improve the paper. Just drop me a note at monckton[at]mail[dot]com and I shall send you the paper. It is just six pages long.
Meanwhile, may Ray Bates make merry in Heaven as he made us merry on Earth.
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Thank you Christopher for a well written overview of a man few of us will have known. He was obviously an open minded scientist, as all scientists need to be if they are to be true to their chosen profession.
Let us hope, the growing awareness of Climate variability among the open minded members of the science world continues to expand. It needs to embrace more of those still in their prime research phase of academic life. Realism/honesty must, not simply be delayed like a damascene moment, to the days of retirement which appears to be a common evolutionary feature of academia….. for uncomfortably obvious reasons.
RIP Ray Bates, a first class man.
I am most grateful to Rod Evans for his kind words about Professor Bates, and to all others below who have been kind enough to pay tribute to his memory.
What a sadness it is that the malevolent climate Communists have seen fit to disrupt this thread with so many hate-filled comments.
It is particularly unfair that my good friend Dr Pat Frank, who has a brain the size of Jupiter, should have been subjected to their nastiness. Among other viciousnesses, they say his landmark 2019 paper on propagation of uncertainty in the models was published in a “predatory” journal. Let it be clear, then, that it was reviewed by none other than Dr Karl Wunsch, who recommended acceptance.
It’s unfortunate that a tribute to a late friend has turned into a kindie party with too much red cordial, or perhaps Parliamentary question time 🙁
I agree that Willard started us down, with an alternative view of the work of Professor Bates. But the design of WUWT made it happen. WUWT actually likes it like this, and so designs their comments page. It adds to eyeballs and ad revenue. You would be happier with the tone if WUWT made both up thumbers and Debbie Downers identifiable. So would I.
Thanks, for the kind words Christopher. Knowing you is a privilege. Your friendship is an honor.
” Let it be clear, then, that it was reviewed by none other than Dr Karl Wunsch, who recommended acceptance.”
Karl Wunsch? Who dat? But yes, let’s go for clarity As in, Not Based In Fact.
https://pubpeer.com/publications/391B1C150212A84C6051D7A2A7F119#5
“Not Based In Fact.”
Guess what,
“In the version that I finally agreed to, there were some interesting and useful descriptions of the behavior of climate models run in predictive mode.”
and
“I thought the version I did see raised important questions, rarely discussed, of the presence of both systematic and random walk errors in models run in predictive mode..”
mean.
You’re so predictably shallow, bob. Your ideological fixation has made you mindless.
Yes, those quotes are in my link. I actually agree. Dr. Wensch wanted “ systematic and random walk errors in models” discussed. He just couldn’t countenance your bogus treatment of them.
And I have no problem with anyone publishing noninflammatory material that is both “interesting” and nonsensical, in non peer reviewed publications, wherever they can. And even if the occasional toilet paper gets into fringe peer reviewed publications, I’m thankful that those few who cite it do so autoerotically in their other papers, or don’t actually use your “method” in their papers. IOW, I’m glad that we are free to cry out either sensibly or not, and that the system is working
Finally, I hope that you can then stop deflecting and agree that Dr. Wensch got conned by whoever modified your paper after he saw it, but before it was published.
bob: “He just couldn’t countenance your bogus treatment of them.”
Wunsch: “[The paper] raised important questions, rarely discussed, of the presence of both systematic and random walk errors in models run in predictive mode.”
Are you dyslexic bob, or just lying?
Reading the rest of your villainous and impeachable speculations, lying is the preferred inference.
Wrong is wrong, Pat.
Willard, in spite of this comment,
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2024/01/09/in-memoriam-professor-ray-bates/#comment-3847219
please don’t think that I’m blaming you for the tone of these posts. Correcting the bias in the OP is quite in bounds.
No worries, Bob. It nobody can reign in Pat or even Mr. Nice, that’s on them. Ray may not have had the Damascus moment <a href=”https://andthentheresphysics.wordpress.com/2022/10/10/how-to-lord-comment-sections/”>Chrissie</a> suggested. There is nothing much our commentariat can say about that.
reign in? There’s a laugh. I’ve yet to encounter a competent member of your ilk.
I’m not surprised you’d want to stop my exposure of your epidemic wrongheadedness.
Reduced to Cliffie Clavinisms.
As a retired international petroleum engineer, I learned long ago to overlook the occasional spello in favor of content. This is an indicator of how insulated you were from the internationally sprinkled Stanford student body.
BTW, I misspelled Dr. Wunsch’s last name in another post. You either spaced on that, or chose to avoid more mention of him and his written distancing of him to you.
No need to cite another thread, Bob. Pat missed the first word of my comment too!
From these two typos I’m sure Pat’s editorial follows “deductively.” For science is meant to proceed deductively. At least that’s what he holds elsewhere.
“Pat missed the first word of my comment too!”
I noted it and moved on. But thank-you for revealing the shallowness of your own focus. Again.
“For science is meant to proceed deductively. At least that’s what he holds elsewhere.”
What is a prediction in science, Willard?
Your entire argument is leveraged by misuse of concepts and the jettisoning of epistemology, Pat.
You’ve outed yourself as Ken Rice, Willard.
But that’s convnient because now I can inform you directly of my falsification of your truly awful critique.
First part here, second here.
Posted on WUWT, where inconvenient falsifications are not deleted.
Your comment has no analytical force, Pat. It lends comfort only to the politically-minded.
So you say, Ken.
But here’s what commenter michel had to say about it:
Its an excellent and complete reply. Particularly this
Very clear and impossible to argue with. Thanks.
michel substantiated his view. Imagine that.
From that statement, Pat, I can confidently surmise that one of two things is true:
I know you think a ±uncertainty statistic is a temperature, Ken.
Evidence that stark does not need a surmise.
#3850571 has no critical content, Pat.
It has no effect on the validity of the analysis, Pat.
There is no Climateball issue beyond that, Pat.
#3850571 has a devastating impact on the validity of your criticism, Ken.
Yours is not an honest practice,
Pat.
Where’s the dishonesty, Ken?
You criticize from ignorance. Is that honest?
You evidence an analytical carelessness that is indistinguishable from polemical opportunism, Pat.
Writes Ken, opportunistically posting a polemic.
Your “Ken” is a chimera, Pat.
Yours isn’t, Ken.
After you read Habermas (1976), Pat, then read van Eemeren (2018), Pat.
is philosophy science, Ken?
My comment was about the substance, not the misuse.
The notion of any of you people having rein-in competence is laughable.
I didn’t mention your “Wensch” because I didn’t care.
Insults, Pat. Arguments, Pat.
Where on this thread have you not employed the first against me, rather than the second, Ken?
As to b.o.b, very long evidential experience has led to a conclusion.
Carry on, Pat. I have no fear of any dispassionate evaluation of our exchange.
Nor I, Ken.
You stopped reading because you have no case, Pat. Your entire attack was baseless.
You launched the attacks, Ken.
Referencing your past comments is called logical coherence. There’s no fault in that,
Pat.
Misrepresenting the sequence of events is called dissimulation.
You have contributed nothing of substance here,
Pat.
There is this, of course. Which you invariably flee.
Your transmission of your fake criticism and of my post was uncritical and without mindfulness, Pat.
Your incompetent physical error analysis is the essence of authenticity, critical ability, and mindfulness, is it, Ken?
Your “Ken” is a chimera, Pat.
It’s not that you’re in left field, Pat.
It’s that none of you are even in the right Climateball park,
Pat.
Your motivation in reply is fatuous, Ken.
You got it wrong again, Pat. All the mind probing stems from error in your argumentation model.
Theory and result, Ken. Experiment and falsification.
You are making the argument of a naive freshman student who has no experience at all with Climateball; not even prior high school level.
Where am I wrong, Willard?
Your question is an analytical non-sequitur. It entirely misses the point. Your question has no bearing on what I did, or on my comments, or on the analysis that is in them.
Blah, blah, blah, Willard. Lacking substance and oracular. As usual with you.
Wrong.
How so, Ken? Lay it out for us all.
The Climateball is in your court.
Wrong, Ken. It’s in yours. Here, and here. You got nothing right.
Given the irrelevance of your comment, Pat, I’m led to wonder whether you have even read the post.
I just realized you linked the PubPeer thread.
Which of those criticisms would you like to defend? Right here on WUWT and any time you like.
Read Willard (2024), Pat. Find out how caviling with cranks actually works, what it is, and what it means.
Complain away, Ken. You still don’t know to distinguish between a ±uncertainty statistic and a physical temperature.
And you still think that a ±W/m² calibration uncertainty in flux is a perturbation on the model.
This entire conversation has been an exercise in tedium for me, with the exception of responding to Walter,
Pat.
And yet you have exercised thereto repeatedly. Perhaps you enjoy being tedious.
Maybe you should read the the thread before commenting on it,
Pat.
My comments here concern you criticizing from ignorance.
That reflects badly on your analytical dispassion, Pat.
Passion about your arrogant incompetence is bad, is it Ken?
Your “Ken” is a chimera, Pat.
Really, Pat, you need to keep track of what you write, Pat, and stop laying your behavior on me, Pat.
You have transmitted your behavior, Ken, and its vapid realization is here for all to see.
Much of your umbrage at my understanding of your responses stems from your continuing to hold on to your braggadocio in the context of a scientific question, Pat.
Umbrage? Tedium, rather.
Your understanding? Your understanding holds a statistic to be a physical temperature.
Your friend is suggesting that the temperature figures you were publishing in your monthly pause update articles should have been C/month instead of C which would make your trends C/month.decade.^
^It’s actually worse than that. Since UAH TLT values are averages in both the temporal and spatial domains that means we should be treating the UAH TLT values as being C per month per globe according to your friend. For example, the 0.83 C figure that UAH actually reported should have been 0.83 C/month.globe according to your friend. Or in fundamental SI units that would be 6.2e-22 C/m.s.
It’s on at least 4 different predatory journal lists. This, of course, does not mean articles published in the journal are automatically wrong. It just means that the author did get the same level of service as would be expected from a non-predatory journal. This is why authors who publish in predatory journals are often classified more like victims.
Did he?
Yes.
Congratulations on exceeding your usual high level of fatuous, bdgwx. <a href=”https://wattsupwiththat.com/2024/01/09/in-memoriam-professor-ray-bates/#comment-3846957/”>See also</a>.
You might want to study up on dimensional analysis.
“4 different predatory journal lists.”
Argument from authority. How do you know they’re unbiased?
Your argument is merely an abuse of logic and of terminology, Pat.
How would you know, Willard?
Since publication, I have received emails from Climateball players who have read the thread and expressed gratitude for it having been published; one of whom expressed fear of reprisal from Pat’s bullying.
fear of reprisal
Reprisal is material, i.e., physical, retaliation. Sharp debate is not reprisal. I give what I get.
Either that person misused language to curry sympathy, or you misused it Ken to promote a lurid exaggeration.
You allowed “Dunningly-Krugered physics-denying pseudoscientific woo-tian” on your 2017 Watt About diatribe, Ken/Willard-the-moderator. And the crank,
Your Cranks Cavil post is hardly kind. And who is “Dikran”? That name does not appear in the PubPeer thread.
I just noticed in your Nonsense Part II, Ken/Willard, that you wrote, “If [±20 K] isn’t temperature what is it? … To claim that it’s some uncertainty statistic, and not a temperature, is just nonsense.”
You truly don’t know, do you.
And “Uncertainties represent something real (i.e., they represent the range of possible results).”
No, they don’t. They represent an ignorance width. And systematic uncertainty is explicitly of the epistemic kind.
Lamentations play no part, Pat. Content is the only criterion of judgment.
Pretty ironic you’d post that, given you posted this.
DMA explained it perfectly to you. But you brushed it away.
Another incorrect analysis, Pat.
How would you know, Ken?
Did you understand either case, you’d not have taken such comfort in your comments or would not have initiated this conversation in the first place,
Pat.
You carry on about understanding cases, and yet you don’t know to distinguish between a physical temperature and an uncertainty in temperature, nor between a calibration error statistic and a perturbation on a model.
Absent those understandings, you’re unable to make any rational case about Propagation…
You seem to have no idea what you’re criticizing,
Pat.
It seems pretty likely you have not read the post at all,
Pat.
I’ve read it and am not impressed.
You’re not displaying the practice of a scientist,
Pat.
Critical exposure of analytical incompetence is not the practice of a scientist, Ken?
Your “Ken” is a chimera, Pat.
Lose the debate, Pat, but rescue yourself by accusing your opponent of incompetence, Pat?
Where is your competence in supposing an uncertainty statistic is a physical magnitude, Ken?
Your “Ken” is a chimera, Pat.
All you’ve done is cavil, Pat.
I’ve shown you’re wrong, Ken.
“C/month”
Every monthly mean is indexed to its specific month. Every yearly mean is indexed to its specific year.
Were they not, construction of a graphical time-series would be impossible.
That doesn’t mean the units are C/month. It’s just C. Likewise a flux that is indexed to a year doesn’t mean the units are W/m2.year. It’s just W/m2.
Of course it is possible. Scientists do it all of the time. Even your friend Lord Monckton has no problem plotting a timeseries of monthly temperatures with units of C (not C/month) on the y-axis.
“It’s just C.”
No, it’s not. It’s (mean C)/(that year). Were it not (that year)⁻¹ you’d not be able to plot the time series.
“a flux that is indexed to a year”
The RMSE is not a flux. How many times must you be told this obvious fact?
±4 Wm⁻²yr¹ is an annual mean calibration error statistic. How hard is that to figure out? A plus/minus statistic is not flux and cannot be flux.
“units of C (not C/month) on the y-axis.”
Plot mean C vs year in a time series. What is the dimension of the slope?
It’s C for a year; not C per year. Pay close attention to the difference.
An average temperature for a year has units of C.
The change in the average temperature over many years is a rate of temperature per year and has units of C/year.
If you take a temperature reading of a body each year and plot that in a graph you have the temperature for that body on y-axis in units of C and the time those readings were taken on the x-axis in units of years. The slope of the best fit line representing the data is the rate of change in the temperature per year in units of C/year. Each individual yearly temperature is still C. It is only the change in that temperature that is C/year.
The value Lauer and Hamilton published is the flux in W/m2 for a year; not per year. It is not a rate of change in the flux. And yes, W/m2 is a flux. That is true regardless of whether it is a min, max, mean, rmse, etc. If it has units of W/m2 we call it a flux regardless. It’s not different than determining the rmse for measurements with units of C. It’s a still a temperature.
It’s C per that individual year. Average temperature for some number of years is C per year.
Average C/year is not a rate because it is not a velocity. Or a vector. Pay close attention to the difference.
“The value Lauer and Hamilton published is the flux in W/m2 for a year;”
Incredible. How is a RMSE (plus/minus)Wm⁻² uncertainty statistic, a physical flux?
“If it has units of W/m2 we call it a flux regardless.”
You call it wrong. How is a (plus/minus) flux calibration uncertainty statistic (not an error), a physical flux?
You’re supposing an energy flux can have two opposing magnitudes, simultaneously.
Congratulations. You’ve invented a new net-zero.
“It’s not different than determining the rmse for measurements with units of C. It’s a still a temperature.”
Thank-you bdgwx. You caused me to laugh out loud. You’re so far out in left field that you’ve exited the ballpark.
The instrumental resolution of a thermometer has no physical connection to molecular kinetic energy.
I did not know that Mr. Nice was a Climate Communist, Chrissie.
Damn commie! They’re everywhere!
(Drink!)
Thank you Lord Monkton. A lovely tribute.
As an old sceptical Galwegian I can understand the depths to which the land of my birth has descended and it is unsurprising the reception you got in Galway.
I must confess ignorance in Prof Bates contribution to sanity and : Ar deais de go riabh a anam (may God have mercy on your soul)
Wonderful tribute to a great person.
The answer to the death of skeptics is the rebirth of curiosity and its search for truth as exemplified by Dr. Bates. Even during the most oppressive regimes the human spirit naturally seeks to rise. A free and open society helps it along.
RIP
“wait and all the skeptics will die”
We have that attitude here regarding the Brexit vote amongst other things.
“Death of ‘1.5m oldsters’ could swing second Brexit vote, says Ian McEwan
This article is more than 6 years old
At Brexit conference in London, author says ‘angry old men’ are shaping UK’s future and by 2019 the mood could be different”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/12/15m-oldsters-in-their-graves-could-swing-second-eu-vote-says-ian-mcewan
How wrong can they and the idiot McEwan be?
2019: How did Boris Johnson achieve his landslide victory?
Johnson’s gamble on a ‘Brexit election’ paid off, with big gains in Labour’s leave-voting heartlands
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2019/dec/13/boris-johnson-achieves-landslide-victory-visual-guide
Then there’s the insults… low information voters, knuckledraggers, thickos etc.
Therein lies the real threat to democracy. Their inability to accept a democratic vote with good grace.
While Germany, the only real power-house and source of money in all of Europe, was seeking ‘back-door’ trade deals with the UK to try and keep itself afloat – having crippled itself with EngyWendyWendy.
(The rest of Europe of course went ballistic and it all fell through)
Meanwhile Paris imagined it could take the place of the City of London as a financial centre – we all see how well that worked out when Paris raced backwards in the financial world.
They couldn’t organise a p!ss up
Thank you for this tribute, Monckton of Brenchley. Good to hear from you again here at WUWT. And please keep on with your team in the pursuit of sound climate analysis.
Thank God, he had the mind and the intellectual curiosity to rethink his position. Being willing to admit one is wrong is rather gratifying and quite humbling.
Changing position
Something no politician is going to do. At this moment Parliament is agonising over what to do about over 700 postmasters. The Post Office (Prop. HMG) and Fujitsu corporation have had since the 90s to change their position and they will not.
Justice Lost In The Post
https://www.private-eye.co.uk/special-reports/justice-lost-in-the-post
The usual political method is to eke it out until they’re all dead. Unfortunately a dramatisation has kicked it to the top of public concerns – hence Parliament finking wot to do.
Where was the media? Or rather why did it look the other way?
A number of these unfortunate souls took their own lives. And Ed Davey was minister of postal affairs….
Ed Davey is a disgrace to his profession. Given that his profession is that of a politician you can imagine that’s a very low bar to get over which Davey still manages to limbo under with room to clear.
And then there’s Daveyand the private jets…
“” As Ed Davey joins the ranks on Twitter attacking Liz Truss for flying on a private plane – apparently she’s “woefully out of touch” – Guido reminds eco-Davey to check his own baggage before getting too excited. As Guido reported back in 2020, Davey has pocketed thousands from a couple who make their money from renting out 23,000 private jet flights a year. In 2020 alone, Chris and Tina Leach, owners of the private jet rental company Air Charter, put £16,500 into Davey’s coffers ahead of his leadership campaign. ””
https://order-order.com/2022/01/27/ed-daveys-high-flying-hypocrisy-over-trusss-aussie-flight/
Don’t forget that Davey was trousering (and likely still trousers) a Solar “Energy” company’s £18,000 per year, for his “advice” (this taking a few hours per year and of roughly equal value to used toilet paper).
This was when, under Cameron, he was Her Majesty’s Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change. When he selected Hinkley Point B as the UK’s next nuclear plant, being the most expensive, the most unlikely to be successful and longest to develop (still incomplete) option. And the most Chinese. Also, as he still boasts, the man who effectively banned fracking for methane by introducing an upper limit on seismic intensity of 0.1. Roughly equivalent to the shock of him dropping his wallet. Whilst fracking for “geothermal” (another GangGreen boondoggle) is permitted the “normal” intensity level of ‘concern’ of 4.0, the same as pile driving, quarrying etc. As seismic intensity is measured logarithmically, the 0.1 is roughly 3,100 times less energetic.
Potato Ed at his finest.
Apparently Davey has made 31 “they should resign” tweets. Seems to be saying “It’s not my fault they lied to me” as if that’s an excuse. James Arbuthnot at least comes out with some credit
Computer Weekly deserves more credit for its investigation of this.
https://www.computerweekly.com/feature/Post-Office-Horizon-scandal-explained-everything-you-need-to-know
I was still working and we had copies of CW which often had interesting articles so I’d look at it most weeks. After reading their article I’ve spent over 10 years waiting for the brown stuff to hit the fan.
I was thinking big media rather than niche publications such as the aforementioned and specifically Private Eye- who covered it from the outset.
Jo Swinson (remember her?), who later won the Lib Dumb leadership contest over Davey, served as postal affairs minister (full title Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Employment Relations and Postal Affairs) after Davey replaced Chris Huhne (remember him?) as Energy Secretary. Evidently neither Davey nor Swinson achieved much to further employment relations in the postal service.
As some wag once noted: “The mind is like a parachute – it only works if it’s open”.
Too soon:
<blockquote>
Professor Kevin Anderson, chair of energy and climate change at the University of Manchester’s School of Mechanical, Aerospace and Civil Engineering, said Bates’s new position “only serves to further weaken the GWPF’s already tenuous grasp of the science underpinning climate change”.
</blockquote>
https://www.desmog.com/2021/09/28/uk-climate-denial-group-slides-further-into-obscurity-with-latest-appointment-say-academics/
Quoting DeSmog…., seriously ! roflmao…
That only heightens Ray Bates’s as a person of strong scientific integrity.
It is troughers like Anderson that have basically zero grasp on the reality of climate.
They are PAID to remain ignorant. (you on the other hand, don’t need to be paid.)
Check the figure 1 on that political hit job, Nice One:
https://www.thegwpf.org/content/uploads/2021/12/Bates-Sea-Ice-Trends.pdf
Imagine this is a stock.
Would you buy or sell?
You are a mindless know-nothing nobody, Dullard
Looks like everything said in that pdf is factual and correct.. something you will never be.
Did you know that current Arctic sea ice extent is above what it has been for EVERY year back to and including 2004 for the same day of the year. !
And still in the top 5% or so of the last 10,000 years.
Thankfully for Arctic sea life, it has decreased somewhat since the anomalous high of 1979.
Don’t choose to live your insignificant existence in deliberate ignorance.
btw, with the AMO starting to head downwards, this would be a great time to buy Arctic sea ice stock, if you actually believe increased Arctic sea ice is a good thing !
> back to and including 2004
Nice cherry pick, Mister Nice.
How much would you buy?
Data, little child.
You should try some.
Noted that you couldn’t counter a single thing I said.
Arctic sea ice higher than the last 19+ years… get over it…
…. or just go with your climate denial.
Oh, Mr. Nice. Your shadowboxing did not impress. Try to land a hit.
When you’ll tell me how much, I’ll ask for how long you’re willing to hold your position.
Arctic sea ice is currently higher than this day of year for the last 19+ years
You LOSE.. as you always will. !
“did not impress”
so what…. actually data is a total anathema to you.. obviously.
You aren’t even at the right playing field.
Well, Mr. Nice, since you ask so kindly:
https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/arctic-sea-ice/
Are the cherries you pick as red as your face?
Extent is higher now than any time in the last 19+ years (for day of year)
Sorry if you can’t accept basic FACTS
1979 was a period of extreme high anomaly, almost up there with the LIA… so of course it is a massive cherry pick for a start point.
Was much lower just a few years earlier.
Not good for Arctic sea or land life.
It is also in the top 5% of the last 10,000 years.
Again.. CLIMATE DENIAL and/or ignorance is all you have.
Your rationalizations are duly noted, Mr. Nice.
I usually ignore irrelevant factoids, but you made me look:
https://imgur.com/Ps33DUJ
Source: https://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/
Care to try again?
Actual NSIDC data, little child.
Sorry you are incapable of doing anything yourself. !
Nothing in your link counters the FACT from their own data , that 2023 is currently above every year back to 2004.
In fact, the Charctic data CONFIRMS my numbers are correct (even though it uses a slightly different method from the straight data at the ftp site.
Try not to be LOSER all your life. !
Did you know that
And that current extent is higher than all years back to 2004 ! (according to actual data.
“I usually ignore irrelevant factoids”
Then why that is all you ever produce. !!
Reality is that Arctic sea ice decrease has levelled off…
… and at an extent FAR HIGHER than the Holocene norm.
Don’t let the actual data kick you in the behind on your way out, ignorant-one.
fAR HiGhEr INdeeD
https://www.carbonbrief.org/guest-post-piecing-together-arctic-sea-ice-history-1850/
You mean rabid AGW scammers putting a fake history together that ignores all actual real Arctic ice history?
Bizarre that you still fall for that sort of scam/propaganda.
But then.. cognitive functionality, is most definitely NOT your thing. !
Russians know far more about Arctic sea ice than the scammers ever will.
That looks like a mirror of the U.S. regional chart.
Low ice in the 1930’s, and high temperatures in the United States. More ice in the 1970’s, and colder temperatures in the United States. Lower ice in the present day, and higher temperatures in the United States. It looks like a cyclical pattern to me. Nothing to do with CO2.
Hansen 1999:
And of course, their little “fabrication” disconnects Arctic sea ice from Arctic temperatures, which totally destroys their own AGW story.
So sad they are incapable of keeping their LIES and FABRICATIONS straight, isn’t it. 😉
Is often the way when you FAKE things!
Wow, someone doesn’t like the ACTUAL DAT being shown, do they.
I wonder, is that Dullard or one of the other climate data deniers ?
“now shrinking at a rate of 12.2% per decade,”
Actually, in the last decade, it has gone basically nowhere.
Only thing shrinking, is you mind…. not much left now. !
The “splat” and the “spray” you feel is on your own face.
Comes from reading propaganda pap, rather than look at the actual data.
Arctic Sea ice has levelled off over the last decade.
Not only that, but it is currently above any extent back to 2004 for this day of the year. in NSIDC and in OSI (Norway).. and in MASIE (over its whole record back to 2006)
“how long you’re willing to hold your position.”
As long as the data shows I am correct.
Totally unlike you, who’s brain-washed cultist belief is totally un-swayed by any reality or data.
Willard, how do you (or anyone else) know that the climate is warming due to CO₂ emissions?
And if CO₂ emissions can’t be blamed, where’s the so what? about sea ice changes?
Do you often beat your wife, Pat?
The ONLY person tainted by your pathetic attempts at sliming…
.. is YOU, dullard.
You yet again, avoid producing any evidence…
… as is the AGW stooge modus.
Oh, Mr. Nice. Should I sample all the slime you tried to throw at me?
Never mind. You missed.
Poor Willard
An evidence-free empty mind.
Go back to kindy and start getting an education.
Oh, Mr. Nice. It only was a drive-by. Would you like me to stay a little longer? Sooner or later you’ll have to honor your bet, and contrarians can’t win with “But the Arctic.”
I have already won.. The Arctic is FAR HIGHER than nearly all the last 10,000 years.
Or you can just keep up with your science denial and your climate denial.
All you are capable of is a drive-by fart .. with your windows up. !
So be it, Mr. Nice.
Does that look fAr HIghER to you?
Just the Little Ice Age.
What a pathetic attempt !
And FAKE to boot !!
Which matches the temperature records well, Unlike the fakery you posted.
Canadian Arctic shows the same thing….
“Canadian Arctic” is kinda big, Mr. Nice.
I think you mean the Boothia peninsula.
And now you go for Greenland, Mr. Nice. Because of its underground sea, perhaps?
Never fear. There’s always a way to find a less crappier graph than what you can find in your shady backchannels:
Silly attempt at change in subject.. and again.. starting at the COLDEST period since the LIA..
MEANINGLESS NONSENSE. !
Greenland ice area over the Holocene is also still very much at the high end
Try not to be ignorant of everything all your life.
And here is a graph of the Greenland ice mass since 1900.
And Other parts of the Arctic, the same pattern
And north of Iceland… That big spike is the period of your little period of faked data.
One day contrarians will stop their “ARCTIC SEA ICE EXTENT
(North of Iceland)” misdirection.
By “North of Iceland,” do you mean to the South-East of Greenland where there’s no sea ice?
Oh dear.. the willy ignorance just keeps on flowing, like he’s had a bad enema.
Perhaps you should do some real research and not keep relying on the mindless propaganda you have been brain-washed with.
How is West Greenland a different part than Greenland, Mr. Nice?
Let’s see if you hide anything by not showing the other parts of Greenland.
Hmmm.
roflmao.. willy thinks Greenland gets sea ice.
What a mindless little child. !!
Obviously has absolutely ZERO CLUE about any of these graphs.
So funny.
Lulzing is good for a soul…of a 10 year-old, Mr. Nice.
Never grow up!
Not surprising there was SO LITTLE sea ice for much of the Holocene, when it was so much warmer compared to now….
By the way.. Baltic Sea ice extent is really high this year… must be pretty darn cold, hey !!
And now the Baltic Sea. The truest representative of the Arctic. You’re a real globetrotter, Mr. Nice!
are those records homogenous?
You seem to really like that question, Walter. Why don’t you go check for yourself?
Notice that they start around 1950.. why not the 1930s or 1940s. 😉
Graph landed the wrong place.
Here’s the data back before the cherry-picked start point..
Pretty good match to the period of silly-willy’s graph, but contains temperature data back to1936.
I’m sure Mr. Nice will provide you with the source for his graph, Walter.
Just you wait.
That question is what gets me called climate denier the most. But instrumentation for collecting water temperature has, without a doubt, changed. Furthermore, there are still vast areas of the ocean that have not been explored.
Perhaps it’s just because you ask it all the time without really following through, Walter. Those who know you better might have better reasons.
Take the first leading question, for instance.
Well, all it does is add more uncertainty to the already Great Unknown, Willard. It’s a shame you defend science that thinks it can correctly adjust it, like a tapping a broken pencil together.
Thus spake our Holocene Opiner!
Yet there is so much Baltic sea ice this year.
Oh dear. !!
And it has been a LOT warmer in the last 10,000 years
You do know the Baltic is counted in the Arctic Sea ice, don’t you little sock-puppet. !
Did you know the current levels of sea ice in the Arctic are above EVERY YEAR back to 2004 ?
The Baltic North Transitional Area may not mean what you make it mean, Mr. Nice, and no, the Baltic sea isn’t a part of the Arctic regions.
Funny that you call me a sock puppet – who do you think you’re talking to?
An empty sock.. would have more intelligence. !
Another cherry-picked short term nothing.
I notice that the temperature has pretty much levelled off since around 2002.. basically agreeing with the FACT that Arctic sea ice has levelled of since about that time.
Well done. ! 🙂
And what do you think region 13 on the MASIE maps is?
You really think I’m a sock puppet, Mr. Nice. Do you?
No, too complex. Let’s start with something easier –
You really think?
I can see why they started the graph in 1950 😉
Hilarious cherry-pick., isn’t it
No wonder you like Chukchi Sea, Mr. Nice. You chuckle like Chucky.
I hope your amp goes to 11.
(Volume. Amp. Get it?)
Again from the extreme high of the 1979.
A meaningless and totally trivial piece of childish propaganda.
Just for mindless fools like you.
What incredible stupidity makes you think extreme high levels of sea ice, like i the LIA and 1979 were in any way desirable ?
Since the slight drop down to the current , (still far higher than most of Holocene), sea life has started to return to the Arctic .
Sea life not seen since the drop from the MWP into the LIA is returning.
Why hate Arctic sea life ??
Chill, Mr. Nice. You’re shadowboxing again.
At least acknowledge that sea ice has decreased dramatically, at a speed we have never witnessed before rope-a-doping to its consequences!
Sea ice has NOT dramatically decreased…
… only drama queens and the very ignorant think that.
It has RECOVERED slightly after an extreme high during the LIA and again in 1979….
.. and that Arctic sea life is returning.. and loving to have good access, even if for only a short few months of the year.
Sea travel is also now possible again for a few short months in summer.
The slight decrease has been absolutely beneficial to human, and Arctic sea and land life in general.
Extent is still in the top 5% or so of the Holocene.
In FACT Current levels are even within the Holocene range yet.
By “current levels” you must be referring to 2008, Mr. Nice.
I wish Kenneth would keep to presenting the graphs he finds instead of tweaking them to please the contrarian crowd.
Current level now is ABOVE 2008.
Yet another FAIL from you.
Poor muppet.. Abject failure is your life.
The paper you cite was published in 2008, Mr. Nice.
Your turn.
“You’re shadowboxing again.”
You certainly have no counter… you are already flat on the floor and sept under the rug to mate with the other cockroaches.
Just mindless non-thinking regurgitation of blatant propaganda.
“You certainly have no counter”
Are you a betting man, Mr. Nice, and how much can you afford to lose?
Only LOSER here is you.. and I suspect you are well aware of that fact.
Which is why you carry on with your silly and childish “I’m-an-idiot” routine.
Beliefs and bets are somehow related, Mr. Nice:
https://andthentheresphysics.wordpress.com/2023/06/03/beliefs-and-bets/
Posturing for the peanut gallery doesn’t count.
You really are a complete moron, aren’t you Willy !
Oh, Mr. Nice. I love you too!
A pathetic little upside down hockey stick.. HILARIOUS. !!
> hockey stick
You keep using these words, Mr. Nice.
They might not mean what you make them mean.
And you are clueless about basically everything
And determined to stay that way.!
I actually started at the Auditor’s, Mr. Nice. In fact I stumbled upon the Auditor’s *because* I was looking at hockey sticks!
Another hallucinogenic charged mindless comment from silly-willy.
> Another hallucinogenic charged
Gaslighting is not nice, Mr. Nice.
I really started at the Auditor’s:
https://neverendingaudit.tumblr.com/
More arrant nonsense.
Why bother with your childish troll-like carry-on ??
It really is absolutely pathetic.
How about we graph that LIA sea ice on a zeroed axis.
Then we can see the recovery very slightly toward more normal Holocene at the end.
Pity anything before the 16th century has “extensive uncertainties” and is thus meaningless.
Wow, they had satellite data of Arcic ice in the Middle Ages? Who knew?
You’re having a tough time following Mr. Nice’s rope-a-doping, Cat.
Give it time.
Willard,
Why can’t you acknowledge that the current consensus in climate science, asserting a significant and observable impact of CO2 on the climate, might be premature?
Walter,
Why can’t Pat answer bdgwx’ question?
huh?
That’s fine, Walter. Perhaps you should not hide behind Pat’s dress and try to help Mr. Nice instead.
The decline in Arctic Sea Ice has experienced a significantly reduced pace since the late 2000s. Variability holds significant importance; analyzing patterns in the data yield more insights than simply drawing straight lines with a ruler like monkey.
what are you talking about?
You amplified Pat’s leading question that had nothing to do with what was being discussed in this subthread, Walter. You invited me here, and the first thing you do is hide behind Pat’s robe. That’s not very chivalrous of you.
The fastest decline in Arctic sea ice in a *very* long time can’t be brushed away that easily.
My question was just a question; not meant to be a follow up to Pat’s. And I invited you to a different thread; not this one. And both of you declined my invitation. You’re here because you want to insinuate Monckton.
The “fastest decline” can be brushed away if it has slowed dramatically since then. Although that claim of it being the “fastest decline” is dubious.
That it is dubitable is par for the scientific course, Walter.
That you find it dubious is par for the Climateball course.
What a truly moronic comment
Pertaining to absolutely NOTHING !!
The first sentence expresses an epistemological claim that is rather obvious. The second sentence expresses a sociological claim that is rather obvious too. Put the two together, and there is something rather obvious being said.
Do you really need me to spell it out, Mr. Nice?
So you ADMIT it was a truly moronic comment.
OK !
Oh, Mr. Nice. You KNOW that I don’t!
“dubious “
Is a great definition of ALL the “climate change™” nonsense and malarkey.
Based on fakery and scientifically unsupportable conjectures, from the quick-sand base upwards.
It is like a more demented and delusional version of a “Dodgy Bros™” used car advertisement.
I wish I could call this “another mindless empty comment,” Mr. Nice.
But since comments have no mind, I won’t.
Our Viscount Discount is not my type, Walter. I would never wish to insinuate him.
I hope the little session with Mr. Nice satisfies your curiosity. If it does, I will forget your question-begging silliness.
Woul that be fair to you?
Another mindless empty comment
Is that all you are capable of, little willy ?
That comment wasn’t meant for you, Mr. Nice.
If you could please mind your own business, that would be great.
“If you could please mind your own business”
If you could stop making moronically stupid, mindlessly empty and irrelevant comments… that would be great too.
But then you would have to be silent..
That’s not a way to respond to “mind your own business,” Mr. Nice.
Imagine if you had to tell me that kind of things face to face.
Open forum clown.. !
Get over yourself.
I’m not sure how being on an “open forum” justifies acting the way you do, Mr. Nice.
It sure gives a nice color to your nickname!
You are dealing with a warmist/alarmist idiot who keeps deflecting from a number of published papers that supports what Bnice has been talking about.
You will never get an honest response.
If only Mr. Nice asked a question, Tommy Boy.
Please stick around. You’re a charmer.
“The fastest decline in Arctic sea ice in a *very* long time”
ROFLMAO
Look at the data.
It is NOT a fast decline, and it has levelled out at an extent that is still well above levels for most of the Holocene.
Data really isn’t within your tiny realm of understanding is it.
Still here, Mr. Nice?
Keep repeating yourself. I will continue my expansion.
Changing to “millions of years”. roflmao !!
What a moronic clown you become when you know the evidence is overwhelming you. !
The speed of the change was kinda obvious, Mr. Nice.
At least to someone who knows better than to post crap from Pierre’s and gloat, which may not be you.
FAKE hockey sticks are the MEME now are they…
hilarious !!!.
You’re knee-jerk amusement is getting a little odd, Mr. Nice.
No Tourette in your family?
You know they are faked…. that’s the really funny thing.
You are fooling YOURSELF and absolutely no-one else.!
Do I have a brain or do I know things, Mr. Nice?
You know nothing.. deliberately.
“No Tourette in your family?”
Certainly no brains in your family !
What a zinger!
I hope Pat likes that one.
Funny how the people who actually done the work, rather than just FAKING IT, have different graphs.. 😉
Graphs that actually match Arctic temperatures
History is against these FAKES as well.
I draw the line at teh Goddard, Mr. Nice.
You should too – after all, he’s banned from here.
FACTS don’t matter to you do they.
You poor empty sock !
Unsourced and irrelevant facts from serial misrepresenters don’t matter to me, Mr. Nice.
You got me there!
“serial misrepresenters”
That’d be you.
I agree your serial misrepresentations are irrelevant to reality.
I know that teh Goddard is irrelevant to reality, Mr. Nice.
But what am I?
Ah, Vinnikov & al 1980. It’s been a while since that one has been thrown at me. Looks like you drank Pierre’s buddy’s Kool-Aid!
What’s his name again?
Anyway, you’re slower than most flying monkeys I’m used to nowadays.
Take care.
So.. no counter to facts..
…. nothing unusual about that , is there. !
Mr. Nice,
How many of your “facts” must I counter before you learn your lesson?
You haven’t countered anything,
You are incapable of doing so.
I count at least ten, Mr. Nice.
Should we compare notes?
He never does because there are none which is why he deflects continuously.
Mr. Nice has been trying to rope-a-dope a mere bet based on the only relevant graph from this subthread, Tommy Boy.
I’m glad you’re here, as I prefer my flying monkeys with a plural. But please try to keep up.
“flying monkeys”
Your direct kin??
No… far smarter.. you are more on the line of a Proboscis.
The stupidest looking monkey of all.
Thank you for this very subtle NO U, Mr. Nice.
Next time, ask your kid how it’s done.
Still empty.. poor dullard.
NO U, Mr. Nice.
A more “REAL” graph of Arctic sea ice extent..
one that matches actual Arctic temperatures and the AMO.
not some contrived mal-construction from an AGW zealot.
At least there is a source to this one, Mr. Nice. This is the paper with an abstract in which we can read:
> This reconstructed SIE shows a substantial decrease in the 1930–1940s with a minimum occurring in 1936, which, however, is only a half of the decline in 2012.
correct?
Again, unable to comprehend what you have copy/pasted.
Arctic sea ice similar high level in the late 1930s as it was around 2000.
Extreme peak around 1979… then a recovery from too much sea ice.
All still WELL ABOVE most of the last 10,000 years.
Your incompetence is hilarious.
I think “half of the decline in 2012” is quite clear, Mr. Nice.
Perhaps you could find the DOI and verify for the peanut gallery you represent?
Only peanut around here is you , dullard. !!
It took you two days to think of this rejoinder, Mr. Nice?
You were quick this time!
1… Graph covers ONLY the Little Ice Age with extensive uncertainty before 16th century. This is known to be pretty much the COLDEST period in 10,000 years
2… Measurements spliced on to proxy data.. a no-no.
3… Covers only 400-600 years, depending on what is actually reality of pre-16th century data.
Hence DOES NOT counter the fact that Current extent is in the top 5% or so of 10,000 years.
In fact, it highlights just how cold the LIA period was and how much sea ice there was.
Explains why the Vikings had to leave Greenland.
Explains why Arctic sea life had to leave the Arctic, and is only just starting to return.
The WARMER period before that explains things as well.
Explains why trees were able to grow, where now there are glaciers.
Explain how peat bogs formed that are now frozen in permafrost.
We have just climbed out of a dismal and very cold period after a much more fruitful and bountiful period of the MWP and before.
Icelandic sea ice data also shows this to be the case, with extended sea ice from 1600- about 1900, then a large spike in the late 1970s similar to much of the LIA.
The world is very lucky for the warming out of this coldest of periods, and very lucky for the increase in atmospheric CO2 that goes along with the warming.
It has allowed the human species to survive and prosper. !
Let’s not destroy all that with a totally un-scientific and irrational panic about human released CO2.
Another Gish Gallop, Mr. Nice?
That one ends with the Iceland Ice Index.
I thought you’d know by now that I spot this kind of trick!
You mean another series of statements you are incapable of countering.
OK.. why not just say that.
Oh, Mr. Nice. Since I like Walter and he’s the one who invited me here, I’m trying to keep a light hand.
But once again – are you a betting man, and how much can you afford to lose?
Mr. Nice keeps jumping around on all levels of the Contrarian Matrix at the same time while throwing his feces at me and Walter thinks I’m the monkey!
Thanks for again showing how much sea ice there was in the 1880s etc and how little there was during the period from 1900-160
You are doing really well ! 😉
You are a monkey.. or actually, more like a flea on the monkey’s back.
You haven’t even relayed contrarian foolish criticism correctly, Mr. Nice.
silly-willy’s chart on zeroed axis
all his petulant drama-queen carry-on disappears.
Is that a graph related to your Iceland Ice Index, Mr. Nice?
That’s what I thought.
No, just the extreme sea ice of the LIA.
Everyone should be very happy with the slight recovery.
It has allowed Arctic sea ice to return.
Highly beneficial to everyone and everything up there.
But you are too ignorant and to anti-LIFE to care about reality.
Sorry you are too incompetent to understand the Icelandic sea ice data.
Not my problem.
No-one can fix deliberate ignorance like yours.
Your opinion of recovery is of no consequence, Mr Nice.
They do that when they can’t stick with the several decades long timeline under discussion because he can’t accept the overwhelming evidence that the Arctic sea ice decline has stopped after 2007.
Conversely, Climateball rookies can’t accept the overwhelming evidence that the Arctic sea ice steadily declines since at least 1981.
Same offer as to Mr. Nice: would buy or sell, how much, and what would be your profit target?
Poor petal… has to work with anomalies to try and scare itself.
Only person being fooled is YOU, dullard. !!
No scientist would agree to such naive mistakes, Mr. Nice.
The fastest decline in Arctic sea ice… is a total fallacy, of course.
The data shows a moderate decline from a very high level.
Absolutely NOTHING to be concerned about, and in fact …
HIGHLY BENEFICIAL to all life, human , aquatic or land animals trying to survive in the region.
Aquatic sea life not seen since the cooling period at the end of the MWP is returning.
Aquatic food stocks are rising. aquatic life is loving it. !
Travel in summer becomes possible again for at least a couple of months, like it was for much of the year in Viking times.
No-one has yet to sail the 1944 St Roch route, still not passable.
Still ONE HECK OF A LOT OF SEA ICE up there. !
Far more than for most of the Holocene, the early period which often saw near zero summer sea ice, and open passage for most of the year.
You already posted that Chukni Sea tid bit, Mr. Nice.
The same graph you borrowed from Pierre’s, I presume.
Running dry on ammo?
So you now accept the graph.. having had absolutely no counter to it.
Finally realising you are an utter failure.
So you now accept that the Chukchi Sea (to correct my earlier typo) isn’t the Arctic as a whole…finally realizing you are a Climateball rookie.
Did I got this right?
Same pattern applies around the whole Arctic
Try not to be continually ignorant. !!
You pretend to work in science without knowing anything of its content or methods, Mr. Nice.
ClimateBall. ???
Yes it is very obvious what balls you spend your time playing with !!
Comments here show confusion about the origin, the methodology, the meaning, and the impact of Climateball, Mr. Nice.
“The fastest decline in Arctic sea ice”
Is a load of arrant NONSENSE..
“Is a load of arrant NONSENSE..”
Is an ARGUMENT BY ASSERTION.
Yet mindless assertion is all you have.
Here’s you little LIA sea ice graph, on a zeroed axis, showing just how UNDRAMATIC it really is.
The “drama” is all in your child-like little mind.
Increasing the whiteness of a graph isn’t that original, Mr. Nice.
What else do you got?
Your lack of mathematical understanding is totally expected and duly noted.!
Your total lack of mathematical understanding totally expected and duly noted.
It is all just white noise, through the extreme extent of the LIA., moron
As opposed to your comments, which are akin to brown noise.
The only sort you are capable of.
Is an argument of fact..
Poor muppet !!
A tiny RECOVERY, slightly to more normal Holocene levels at the end of the LIA.
Only fit for a total drama-queen
The speediest drop in a graph you distort to drown the signal in white noise, Mr. Nice.
“what are you talking about?”
Willy is totally clueless what he is talking about.. never has.. never will.
Random unassociated garbled nonsense is the best he can produce.
Oh, Mr. Nice. One comment you think I’m a sock puppet. The other you can judge what I could ever produce.
Have you considered making up your mind before deciding upon which invective to spit?
An empty sock that can produce nothing.
No confusion my end.
Oh, Mr. Nice. I have been playing Climateball since at least 2009.
Where were you all this time?
It’s like we are made for one another.
And never won a game in your life.
“Incompetence” is your first, middle and last name. !
Time to grow up.
“playing Climateball”
What a childish and puny little mind you have. !!
Proving to everyone that your only reason for existence is as an incompetent child-like troll.
Now, off you trot.. .
… take your ADHD meds, and stop pestering the adults.. !
Glad you ADMIT I am not pestering you, Mr. Nice!
Here is one claim:
(P1) My reviewers were highly competent — unlike you.
Here is another claim:
(P2) Carl Wunsh provided no substantive argument to validate his complaint.
Does P1 and P2 contain the same set of reviewers?
Well, crickets.
Where’s Mr. Nice when we need him?
Poor little willy has another ADHD episode.
Yelling and screeching from the toddler’s pool.
You have ZERO competence, little willy.
It is your birth-right.
Perhaps my first puzzle was too hard for you, Mr. Nice. Here is another one:
Two referees, let’s call them W&Z, recommend to publish Pat’s paper, which has been rejected by at least 13 journals so far. The other two referees did not. We now know that W does not endorse the paper’s conclusion. Something about Pat’s last minute additions.
Q1: how many referees left?
Q2: is that single referee the “physicists” Pat alluded to elsewhere in that thread?
Moar crickets, Mr. Nice!
If you’d read the PubPeer thread, you’d know that the changes were required by the additional round by the second reviewer, after Prof. Wunsch signed off the manuscript.
For your laughable “rejected by at least 13 journals” see the ignorance of the reviews described here and discussed extensively in, Are Climate Modelers Scientists?.
Those links are for others, btw. You’re both unlikely to understand the mistakes, and guaranteed to reject the obvious conclusion regardless.
You’ve attained the level of shallow reached by my other alarmist critics, Willard. Zero study, zero analytical acuity, just invent some talking point and harp on it.
I was unfamiliar with Tony’s before being notified of the comments in this forum. One hopes the criticisms I have received here — insubstantial drive-bys and prejudicially strained nonsense — are not typical of conversations on Tony’s, because they do not merit standing as being about Climateball.
What’s a Tony?
You’ve no evidenced standing to criticize the posts of others here on the grounds of prejudice, drive-by, or strainedness.
You asked the wrong question, Pat.
Your answer is uninformative, Willard.
Until you realize that assertion is not proof, and that personal attacks are not relevant conclusions, your “arguments” will remain a product of ignorance, Pat.
What unproved assertions, Willard? What personal attacks?
Your “accusations” remain a product of vacuity.
I submit that your comments earned my response, Pat. Were the full context given, I further submit that your complaint would be shown to have no merit.
More unsupported declaiming, Ken
Wrong, Pat.
Yet another unsupported declamation.
I’ve dealt with exactly the issue you raise, both in this comment thread and in post, and show why that thinking is wrong…Pat.
What issue did I raise, Ken? Bet you can’t explicate it.
Where in this comment thread and what post?
What you’re doing is not clever, Ken. The irrelevance males you look dysphasic.
It’s also clear that you don’t understand the post itself, Pat.
What post, Ken?
The results are readily reproducible,
Pat.
But you haven’t tried, have you,
Pat.
And given the results, the published conclusion is inescapable,
Pat.
Fishing for sympathy never produces a worthwhile catch.
Pat has constructed an artful pseudo-science, decorated with machismo.
And that, nobody finds convincing.
Not nobody, Ken. You. Because you’re incompetent.
Pat, Pat,
Your “Ken” is a chimera, Pat.
Your entire argument is retention of that category mistake,
Pat.
The identity from here to here is categorical.
A remarkably telling comment,
Pat.
What can we tell from this, Ken?
I rather proved to everyone that your accusation of sock puppetry was rather ridiculous, Mr. Nice.
You, on the other hand (don’t ask me where’s the first one), proved your obliviousness regarding your actual Climateball performance.
Willard is a monkey.
Does that mean I am a monkey-octopus, Walter?
No, just a complete moron..
You people are hopeless, Mr. Nice.
Willard,
Are you being silly?
No, Walter.
I am being Pat*.
My questions for Pat are numerous. This is not an exhaustive list.
1) Why did he change the units from [Lauer et al. 2013] from W/m2 to W/m2.year in [Frank 2019]?
2) Why does he dismiss the mistakes found by others?.
3) Why does he use the wrong formula for uncertainty in many of the equations (#5 for example) in [Frank 2023]?
4) Why does he use Bevington 4.22 as the basis for uncertainty propagation of an average in [Frank 2010]?
5) Why does he not confirm his answers using the NIST uncertainty machine?
6) Why does he publish in journals that are considered predatory?
Same old incompetent fixation, bdgwx. We’ve been over this ad nauseam. Your obsession is impervious to enlightenment.
1) Why are you unable to grasp that annual mean = average/year? Your persistent inability to encompass this simple equation appears to imply a neurological problem.
2) Inept attacks, rather. The PubPeer moderator on that thread is now deleting my responses. A complete betrayal of ethics, but typical of alarmist dishonesty. They can’t bear falsification, so they silence their confutators. I plan to post about it soon.
3) Why are you persistently unable to distinguish a mean uncertainty from the uncertainty of a mean? Maybe it’s the same neurological deficit that prevents you from parsing “annual mean.”
4) Because a degree of freedom is lost in the mean.
5) Because systematic error is not Gaussian and has no known probability distribution. You might try reading the user manual.
6) Frontiers in Earth Science: Atmospheres is not predatory. My reviewers were highly competent — unlike you. Why would you suppose descent to ignorant slander is a worthy rejoinder?
Same old nonsense, bdgwx. It’s hard to know whether you’re that thick or that dishonest. But your endless repetition of wrongness is utterly banal.
1) I don’t grasp it because it is dead wrong. The Lauer et al. 2013 figure is a flux (W/m2); not a change in flux (W/m2.year). And no, the annual (or monthly, daily, hourly, secondly, etc.) mean of anything does have units of 1/year (or 1/month, 1/day, 1/hour, 1/s, etc.) added to it. A simple unit analysis of the function f(xI: 1 to N) := Σ[xi, 1 to N] / N confirms this since adding does not change units and N is dimensionless.
2) So now PubPeer is deleting your posts eh? Are they are also changing the content of posts? Have you reported it?
3) I know exactly what the difference is. As I’ve said countless times before “mean uncertainty” is Σ[u(x)]/N while “uncertainty of the mean” is u(Σ[x]/N). The former has little or no use. Anyway, the formula for “uncertainty of the mean” is u(Σ[x]/N) = sqrt(Σ[u(x)^2] / N) when x are uncorrelated. If they are correlated then need to use the law of propagation of uncertainty formula with the correlation matrix r. And if you want to say that the correlation of all x is r = 1 then that is an implicit statement that you don’t think any of the uncertainty arises from random effects.
4) Bevington 4.22 has nothing to do with degrees of freedom. It’s not even an equation that outputs an uncertainty. It is exactly what Bevington says it is…an equation that is an intermediate step that is used in conjunction with 4.23 which computes the “variance of the mean” or u^2(Σ[x]/N) when relative uncertainties are to be combined. Bevington clearly labels 4.22 as “weighted average variance of the data” and 4.23 as “variance of the mean”.
5) The NIST uncertainty machine handles systematic uncertainty via the correlation matrix and non-gaussian distributions via the distribution dropdown list.
6) It is listed on the Predatory Reports list of predatory journals. They preyed on you Pat.
“It is listed on the Predatory Reports list of predatory journals. They preyed on you Pat.”
As one who watched US Fidelis flip and burn in your own back yard 10 years ago, I think that you have true disdain for the Frontiers of the world. They prey on the old, the gullible, or here, the Dan Kahan Motivated Reasoners. Even as Dr. Frank is systemically ignored – to avoid embarrassing him – above ground, he has subconsciously circled the wagons with his Bizarro World statistics. With the enabling of a few subterranean enablers here, this is how he will fade away.
Sidebar: The Fidelis brothers might still be making little ones out of big ones. I lost track. But extended auto warranty scammers are back to prey on the old, and sick.
“With the enabling of a few subterranean enablers here..”
Feel free to Cliffie Clavin me for this. I should be writing in Word first..
… the usual suspects shamble into town.
You’re displaying adversarial politics.
Speaking from experience.
The level of ignorance informing that complaint is astounding.
Informing you, Willard.
If you’re going to criticize, please understand, first, what you’re criticizing.
I’m perfectly on board.
Worse than an abuse of logic, Pat. Your argument is an abuse of common sense.
You wouldn’t have the vaguest clue what common sense is.
Pretending otherwise is just self-flagellation.
Pat is wrong. As I have pointed out repeatedly on this thread. So are you, Mr. Nice.
Unsupported assertion. Oracular pronouncement. Typical of your species, Willard.
You can’t have it both ways, Pat.
How would you know, Willard?
Those are mistakes to be expected of a college freshman who never took a course on argumentation theory, Pat.
What mistakes, Willard. Be specific.
You made no actual criticism, Pat. You merely made non-specific accusations.
Right. You don’t know. You merely made non-specific accusations.
Pat, in the first place, insulting is not arguing. You and everyone else never figure out the difference. You make this same mistake incessantly.
What insult, Willard?
Receiving Pat’s silly questions and seeing the extraordinary ignorance they conveyed was the most incredible experience of my life in Climateball.
a) More rank dismissal.
b) You testify to a boring life.
But you evidently know nothing of rank dismissal or of a good life, Pat.
Isn’t that interesting, Pat.
Evidently? What evidence?
Your inability to distinguish a statistic from a temperature is incredible, though it’s a banality of my experience with consensus climatologists.
You continue to make criticisms consistent with a conclusion that you have never read the post, Pat.
Which criticisms, Ken? Surely you don’t mean your exercise in plagiarism.
Of course I know you’re doing that, which is why I’ve been answering you as I have done.
If you had actually looked at the https://andthentheresphysics.wordpress.com/2024/01/16/how-to-cavil-like-cranks/, Pat, you would have seen my replies to the peanut gallery were very extensive, Pat, very detailed, Pat, and very specific, Pat.
I addressed their criticisms, Pat.
Abstruse, obtuse, and profuse. You’ve got it all covered, Ken.
Your “Ken” is a chimera, Pat.
Your doppelganger is a Ken.
Your “doppelgänger” is a chimera, Pat.
So you say, Ken, indulging shallow japery.
The level of ignorance dullard is portraying is hilarious and totally bizarre.
NOBOBY can be that DUMB without immense effort.
Well done.
Your admission “well done” amounts to an explicit acceptance of my analysis.
The greasy ignorance of the slimy-blob oozes to the surface.
Ugly and putrid in its stench.
You ought to withdraw your analysis, Mr. Nice.
1) “The Lauer et al. 2013 figure is a flux (W/m2);”
No, it’s not. It’s a calibration time-average uncertainty statistic. It’s not an energy flux at all.
Start off wrong, end up wrong, bdgwx. Your invariable modus operandi.
2) I reported it and received a sneering reply. PubPeer now violates its own stated ethics, and every ethic of science. Comment threads there are no longer trustworthy.
3) In which case you don’t understand the usage. Systematic measurement error is deterministic, not random. The correlation of field meteorological station temperature and SST measurements is entirely unknown. And for past measurements, unknowable.
4) Bevington calls it “the error of the estimate μ’ of the mean” You’ve been systematically misrepresenting his explanation since day 1.
5) The distributions are unknown, and for past measurements, unknowable.
6) Added on no good grounds. Beall’s criteria of judgment applied to Frontiers would obviate virtually every journal extant, including Nature and Science.
You make the reputational argument classic of one who has no analytical case.
Beall, in any case, is not a pope of verity. He hasn’t the divine grant of infallibility that you, in your eagerness, endow him.
First…yes it is. Second…you missed the salient point. You can’t just change the units from W/m2 to W/m2.year so that you can then justify multiplying by years.
What was the content of the posts that were removed?
First…if you don’t know what the correlation is then the last thing you want to do is assume it is r = 1 because as I said is an implicit statement that you think there is no component arising from random effects. More importantly…that does not justify your use of the wrong formula.
He does no such thing. I think you need reread the section on Relative Uncertainty. Read it carefully this time. And if you have any doubts then follow example 4.2 which makes it unequivocally clear that 1) equation 4.22 and 4.23 is for relative uncertainty and 2) that 4.22 is but an intermediate step that is required for 4.23.
First…that’s not true. Second…it’s moot since as JCGM 100:2008 and Bevington say you can combine uncertainty regardless of the distribution as long as you do so using the standard deviation of the distribution.
First…I didn’t mention Beall or his list. Second…my point is only that you are a victim because you didn’t get the same quality of review as you would have with a more reputable journal. In the future I recommend submitting your work to a journal that has a history of quality reviews and the desire to issue retraction if they failed to find an egregious mistake.
1) You still can’t grasp annual mean.
2) Wait for it
3) No correlations in per-measurement uncertainty.
4) That was a direct quote
5) It is true. As you claim not, then tell us what the distribution of error was in historical temperatures from, let’s see: Bergen.
6) My 2019 reviewers were Davide Zanchettin and Carl Wunsch. It’s so nice to see that your need to contradict provides you justification to derogate first rank scientists. You’re a quality guy, bdgwx.
I could be the dumbest person on the planet. That still doesn’t justify changing the units from W/m2 to W/m2.year.
If you think r = 0 then a) you are implicitly stating there is no systematic error between measurements and b) your formula does not follow from the law of propagation of uncertainty.
No it was not. What he said is “To find the error in the estimate μ’ of the mean we must calculate a weighted average variance of the data: σ^2 = (Σ[wi*xi^2]/Σ[wi] – μ’^2) * N/(N-1) (4.22) where the last factor corrects for the fact that the mean μ’ was itself determined from the data. We may recognize the expression in brackets as the difference between the weighted average of the squares of our measurements xi and the square of the weighted average. The variance of the mean can then be determined by substituting the expression σ^2 from Equation 4.22 into Equation 4.14: σ_μ^2 = σ/N (4.23).“
And in example 4.2 he says “To find the error in the mean the student could calculate σ from here data by Equation 4.22 and use Equation 4.23 to estimate σ_μ.”
I don’t have to. That’s the point. All I need to know is the standard uncertainty. It doesn’t matter if the individual measurement uncertainty distribution is rectangular, triangular, or something else. When you randomly select a sample from those distributions it tends towards a gaussian distribution regardless.
I’m not derogating anyone. I’m sure both reviewers are fine people. But this proves my point. Carl Wunsch didn’t review the final form of your paper and as such retracted his endorsement. You question his identity and taunt him all the while claiming that only 3 people in the world understood it (including Wunsch who doesn’t endorse it). So Frontiers published your paper with only a single endorsement who just happens to be the only other guy in the world that understands it.
1) “That still doesn’t justify” [∑(20 years of measurements)/20 years] = average measurement magnitude/year. 5th grade math and you don’t get it. Incredible
2) What is the r of a per-measurement instrumental uncertainty statistic, bdgwx?
3) Yes it was, by direct inspection. Quoting additional material changes nothing, Eqns. 4(14) and 4(23) are valid only when the error is normally distributed. Your own personal trip-hazard. You never fail to fall over it.
4) Assuming your conclusion on the grounds of no evidence. A perfect paradigm for your approach to everything,
5) Carl Wunsch agreed with the analysis. Even what you blindly call his retraction included approval, namely, “the version that I finally agreed to, there were some interesting and useful descriptions of the behavior of climate models run in predictive mode. … I thought the version I did see raised important questions, rarely discussed, of the presence of both systematic and random walk errors in models run in predictive mode and that some discussion of these issues might be worthwhile.”
Further, there was a third round with reviewer Zanchettin after Carl Wunsch signed off. That was the source of the changes he noted.
1) The part I don’t get is how you apparently got a different 5th grade education than everyone else. The average of any sample retains the same units as the individual elements in the sample. You don’t even follow your own erroneous rule consistently in your own work (for example [Frank 2023] equation 5 and 6) so I question your conviction on this matter.
2) I don’t know the exact r value of the individual measurements. But I can say definitively that it is not negative, 0, or 1. That means it is somewhere between 0 and 1 which means the combined uncertainty of the mean is lower than the uncertainty of the individual measurements that went into that mean.
3) First…the goalpost was that 4.22 was the equation for the uncertainty of the mean which Bevington would say is unequivocally wrong. Second…your new goalpost that uncertainty propagation via 4.14 and 4.23 only works for normal distributions is just patently false as can be easily shown with the NIST uncertainty machine.
4) My evidence is JCGM 100:2008.
5) And what did those reviewers say when told about the change from W/m2 to W/m2.year?
1) 10 tables, 100 apples averages 10 apples per table. Some higher math for you.
2) An answer proving you don’t understand the analysis — likely you haven’t read the paper. I’ll be generous. A per-measurement uncertainty is discrete and solitary.
3) Tell you what, bdgwx, the σ² denominator in 4.22 is (N-1). The σ² denominator in 4.14 and 4.23 is N. Explain how Bevington justifies swapping out the (N-1) denominator and replacing it with N.
The math is all worked out in Section 2 of the 2010 paper you so love to misunderstand, and likely have not fully read, either.
4) JCGM. That’s rich. You must have missed Section C.3.2 Variance, which begins: “The variance of a random variable…” The derivation is identical to Bevington’s.
Bevington likewise notes that his derivations apply to random variables. At the end of Section 1.3: “… we shall be concerned mainly with distributions that result from statistical errors and for which the variance exists.”
I.e., random variables. The only sort of variables that allow closed-form statistics. That condition applies to his entire book.
5) Unmentioned by 35 reviewers of 13 submissions over 6 years. Including Carl Wunsch and Davide Zanchettin. Not one made your mistake. They all understood the meaning of “annual mean,” which you very clearly do not.
And just in case you’re tempted to take up the 6-year talking point: Are Climate Modelers Scientists?
1) You were already told why your apples example is not analogous to temperatures in the PubPeer thread. Again…it is because that is an example of a rate. If you add 12 tables you get 120 more applies. A mean temperature is not a rate. The latest UAH TLT value of 0.83 C is just that C. It is not 0.83 C per month. It is a fact so intuitive that trying to upscale it by a factor of 12 to convert it to per year yields the comical value of 0.83 C/month * 12 months/year = 9.96 C/year. See the problem?
2) Temperature measurements are not solitary though. The error in the measurement at time T is going to have some correlation with the error at T + 10s. This is why the uncertainty in the 5-minute reports from ASOS stations do not scale as 1/sqrt(30).
3) 4.22 is the formula for variance σ^2 with weightings. It is not unlike 4.13 which is the formula for standard deviation σ without weightings He uses N-1 for both because they are for a sample as opposed to a population. 4.14 and 4.23 are the formulas for the uncertainty of the mean σ_μ. They divide by N because the partial derivative ∂f/∂x = 1/N when f is a function that computes the mean. He even tells you how it is done in the lead up to equation 4.14. Also notice that the symbol σ is the “estimate of the standard deviation of the population” while σ_u is the “standard deviation of the mean, or standard error”. If want to know the uncertainty of the mean you need to use an equation from Bevington with σ_u (not σ) on the left hand side.
4) Yes. I am aware of what variance is. And of course the derivation is identical to Bevington because they (and everyone else) agrees on what variance is. They (and everyone else) also agrees that the variance of the mean (which is different than the variance of the random variable itself) is given by σ^2/N.
5) When I get time I’ll email Zanchettin and Wunsch and see what they have to say on the matter.
1) Laughably wrong. Averages are not vectors.
2) The focus is the instrument, not the temperature. You haven’t understood anything of the analysis.
3.1) The wᵢ=1 throughout.
3.2) Bevington uses N-1 because a DOF is lost in calculating μ’.
3.3) They can divide by N because the error is strictly random, which justifies the substitution. Unjustified when the error is systematic.
4) The point is the the equations are for random error. My entire paper deals with non-normal systematic error.
5) Very astute. Neither scientist was a reviewer on LiG Met. — the paper commanding your attention. You’re not paying attention at all, bdgwx.
1) I didn’t say averages were vectors.
2) There is correlation between measurements precisely because those measurements are from the same instrument or at least same type of instrument.
3.1) If you are assuming wi=1 then 4.22 simplifies to the standard variance formula for a sample. Why use 4.22 at all?
3.2) Nope. He use N-1 because he uses the sample (as opposed to population) form of the variance equation.
3.3) Yes. That’s correct. 3.13 simplifies to σ_μ^2 = σ^2/N when the function f = Σ[xi]/N and when there is no correlation (r = 0) because it leaves only the partial derivative terms. It simplifies to σ_μ^2 = σ^2 when the correlation is maximized (r = 1). That’s moot though because 4.22 isn’t an equation for σ_μ^2; it’s an equation for σ^2 which means it cannot be used regardless of whether you think the error is entirely random (r = 0) or entirely systematic (r = 1) or somewhere in between.
4) That’s just patently false. The equations are for variance. That are not for error/uncertainty at all regardless of whether it is random or systematic.
5) This topic was in regards to [Frank 2019].
1) Vector: Yes you did A physical rate is a vector. An average is not.
2) The point doesn’t concern the measurements. It concerns the instrument. You don’t understand that, which is why your entire approach is wrong. Apart from the fact that you don’t get the logic of the analysis, either.
3.3) The error is systematic, not random. The assumption of random is violated. The math changes. You’ve never figured that out, either.
4.1) You’re declaring my paper is not about systematic error? An F for you and go to the back of the class.
4.2) Variance is (±uncertainty)². Leave this class, head down the hall to the remedial group.
5) In that case you’re conflating papers because the 2019 paper does not concern temperature measurement error at all.
1) No I did not. First…not all rates are vectors. Second…that’s moot because I specifically said an average temperature is NOT a rate. I’ll repeat…a monthly or annual global average temperature is NOT a rate. I’m going to tell you what I tell everyone else. Don’t expect me to defend the arguments your created especially when they are absurd.
2) I get it Pat. You don’t think I understand anything. You think I have a neurological disorder and that I’m incompetent. You’ve made that abundantly clear. That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that measurements are correlated with each other precisely because some of them come from the same instrument type or even the same instrument itself.
3.3) In the real world the error in a single measurement is both systematic AND random. It’s not one or the other. It is both. And as such to analyze uncertainty correctly you should consider both meaning that you need to consider the covariance between measurements per the law of propagation of uncertainty. Not only did you not do that; you didn’t use the law of propagation of uncertainty or even one of the derivations of it. All you did was use the formula for the variance (or standard deviation) of a sample and assumed in contradiction to what Bevington, JCGM, and everyone else says that it also applies the uncertainty of the mean which it does not.
4.1) No I’m not. I’m declaring your paper used the wrong formula. You used the wrong formula regardless of whether you think the error you are analyzing is systematic or random or both. It doesn’t matter. You used the wrong formula regardless.
4.2) Not it is not. In the context of a measurement model that computes the mean the variance of the sample is NOT uncertainty. Bevington, JCGM, and everyone else make that abundantly clear. You use the variance as an intermediate step in determining the uncertainty, but it is not itself the uncertainty. Look at Bevington 4.22 and 4.23 again. 4.22 computes the variance of the sample σ^2. 4.23 uses the variance of the sample σ^2 to compute the uncertainty (or standard error) of the mean σ_μ.
1.1) “No I did not.”
Yes you did: “because that [per table average] is an example of a rate.”
1.2) “First…not all rates are vectors.”
All rates are velocities. Every velocity is a vector.
1.3) “arguments your created
”
Nick Stokes created that argument in reference to ±4Wm⁻²yr⁻¹. He claimed that’s a rate. You’ve claimed it’s a rate. So-called Piper chuarense on PubPeer claimed C/time is a rate. And you re-used his example, which is suggestive.
Just to add, your 0.83 C example misrepresents a sum of discrete months. Your 0.83C/month should be 0.83C/month_1.
Multiplying that by 12 months is wrong. The 12 months of the year are month_1…month_6…month_12. These units do not cancel with a generic month dimension.
2) “I get it Pat.”
After your ‘poor me’ interlude, you show once again you don’t get it. You go on about measurements. Instrumental resolution is not a measurement. The statistics of measurement correlation do not apply.
3.3) Nowhere in LiG Met. do I consider the error of a single measurement. You’ve mistaken the meaning of instrumental resolution uncertainty, which applies uniquely to every measurement. But it’s not an uncertainty rooted in the measurement itself.
And once again, Lig Met. eqns 4-6 are used to calculate the mean of uncertainty due to instrumental resolution. You continually misrepresent that work; supposing it to intend the uncertainty of the mean. it doesn’t. It’s not.
Your argument is entirely misapplied. irrelevant. A non-sequitur. But, hey, you get it.
4.1) “I’m declaring your paper used the wrong formula.”
Declaring. Eminently undemonstrated. You have invariably misunderstood and misrepresented that part of the paper.
I’ve explained it repeatedly. You never understand. You merely repeat your wrong-headed idée fixe. I despair you’ll ever see the light.
4.2) “4.23 uses the variance of the sample σ^2 to compute the uncertainty (or standard error) of the mean σ_μ.”
The sample strictly consisting of random variables. Systematic error is not random. Bevington 4.23 does not apply. You never get that, either. Try staring at 2010 Section 2 for a long time.
I’m not the one who created this scenario. You did. You literally described it as “10 apples per table”. Those are your words; not mine. And the whole vector thing came from you; not me.
C/year, j/s, and points/game are examples of rates that are not vectors.
That is because it is a rate. It is the change in W/m2 per year.
It’s 0.83 C for a month. It’s not 0.83 C per month. That’s why we keep the units as C as opposed to C/month.
No body cares about the “mean of uncertainty” (or Σ[u(x)]/N). The only thing that matters is the “uncertainty of the mean” (or u(Σ[x]/N]).
Then that’s your problem right there.
Then you have deceived your audience. If you never intended to estimate the uncertainty of the mean temperature then you should be advertising it as if you did.
4.22 does not apply either. It’s not the uncertainty of anything. It’s just the weighted average variance of the sample. At least with 4.23 it is actually the uncertainty of the mean when there is no covariance (r = 0).
This is all so tedious. Here is a ppt discussion of vectors and scalars for you.
Notice that the scalar — the instantaneous magnitude — has the same dimensions as the vector. But a scalar is not a vector.
On encountering a metric, determining which of the two it is — vector or scalar — requires knowing and understanding the physical context.
Your entire argument shows insensitivity to context. Averages are scalars.
“It is the change in W/m2 per year.”
±4Wm⁻² is a statistic. Nothing physically changes.
“It’s 0.83 C for a month.”
It’s 0.83 C for that month.
“Then that’s your problem right there.”
Given the physical limit of instrumental resolution, instrumental non-linearity of response, and the uncertainty due to the visual acuity of the observer …
Explain how you’d calculate the mean instrumental uncertainty per LiG thermometer measurement — a property of the instrument present in the instrument before any measurement is taken.
It’s very, very clear that you’ve never studied the paper for understanding.
“advertising”
LiG Met Section 4.2: Resolution Limits
“The lower limit of resolution of LiG thermometers has been neglected during construction of the global air-temperature record. High-quality LiG thermometers scored to 1°C or 1°F per division have an instrumental lower limit of resolution 2σ = ±0.11 C/F.”
…
“This ±0.382 C represents the field-conditions lower limit of visually-read resolution-limited 2σ uncertainty to be assigned to any global daily mean land-surface meteorological LiG air temperature.”
…
“Spirit LiG thermometers provide about half the accuracy of the mercury LiG counterpart, yielding a per-measurement 1σ = ±0.309 °C/°F (cf. Section 3.1.1, Table 1). The lower limit of uncertainty in any Tmin and Tmax land-surface air temperature prior to 1981 consists of the detection limit and the visual repeatability (cf. Table 1) combined in quadrature with the uncertainty due to non-linearity (Table 7).” My emphasis throughout.
You have never read the paper with attention or care.
“4.22 does not apply either. It’s not the uncertainty of anything. It’s just the weighted average variance of the sample.”
Bevington: “To find the error in the estimate μ’ … we must calculate a weighted average variance of the data:” eqn. 4.22 follows. (italics in original)
Wikipedia: “The variance of a random variable X is the expected value of the squared deviation from the mean of X,μ = E[ X ] … The standard deviation is obtained as the square root of the variance.”
Wikipedia: “… the standard deviation is a measure of the amount of variation of a random variable expected about its mean.
“The standard deviation of a random variable, sample, statistical population, data set, or probability distribution is the square root of its variance. (emphasis added)
“Standard deviation may serve as a measure of uncertainty. In physical science, for example, the reported standard deviation of a group of repeated measurements gives the precision of those measurements.” (emphasis added)
You’re wrong, bdgwx. Give it up.
Showing your incompetence, YET AGAIN, bd-eyes….. why do that ???
Were you to pay the attention to the detail demanded of the ordinary Climateball player, Mr. Nice, you’d quickly discover your performance is predictively worthless.
You have been preyed on by the climate scammers all your life..
…. totally unawares.
It is a really sad state for you to be in. !
It is clear that your education is deficient, Mr. Nice.
As I said.. bd is too incompetent to understand…
and too lacking in integrity to accept his incompetence.
And don’t think I didn’t notice the irony of you lecturing others on civility followed by an implication that I have a “neurological disorder” and that I have a “incompetent fixation” and “ignorant fixation” and that I’m “thick”. I don’t care about the ad-hominem Pat. In fact, I’ll always defend your right to call me whatever you want and I’ll do so without reciprocating your behavior. That’s not my point. My point is that you undermine your own credibility and moral compass when you do the very thing for which you rebuke others.
You undermine any respect for your intellectual integrity by displaying an adamantine ignorance.
We’ve been over this ground repeatedly. I’ve explained it all to you in detail. Many times. Explanations that have satisfied physicists.
Nevertheless you lose no opportunity to raise the identical mistaken objections yet again.
What can this obsessive questioning reflect but an unhealthy fixation? What can be the cause but inability or dishonesty?
Your resistance to grasping any of this is understandable in a pragmatic sense.
Willard scores another vacuous goal.
Never have I ever encountered such incompetence so often repeated.
Dodge as you might, falsification hurts doesn’t it Willard. Tough.
You provided no objective criticism.
How would you know?
Your entire attack was baseless.
Your entire series of posts here is utterly baseless and meaningless. !
Its the ONLY thing you are capable of.
This is not rocket science, Mr. Nice.
The attacks on my paper are base. Your comments are vacuous.
That’s your logic, Pat. It produces utter nonsense.
Oracular dismissal. The only stick in the alarmist armamentum.
Insistent repetition of fatuous criticisms does not make them correct, Pat.
What fatuous criticism, Willard?
I have explained this problem many, many times, Pat. None of you people ever get it, even though the concepts are obvious.
Yet another vague declamation. You have invariably failed to explain,
Never could I have conceived before that, that PhD people who fancied themselves scientists could be so poorly trained as Climateball players.
“who fancied themselves scientists”
I spent my career as scientific staff jointly at the SLAC National Accelerator Laboratory and the Department of Chemistry, Stanford University.
I averaged about 1.5 peer-reviewed and published papers per year and had international collaborators.
How about you, Ken?
We can’t have an argument from you, Pat, can we. Your grand schemes would reveal themselves empty of meaning. Your very persona would be threatened.
What grand schemes, Ken?
That’s how the contrarian frenzy has corroded freedom of speech and thought in our social media, Pat.
What “how,” Ken?
It’s clear you don’t understand that politics is not science, Pat.
As you don’t understand the basics of my paper, Ken, your criticisms can therefore not stem from science.
Clearly absent science, what, then, motivates them?
This lack of understanding on the part of you and your like has removed contrarians from the realm of science and put it into a warm little pond of Climateball, Pat, where everything — your comments and the Earth itself — follows closed form egotism, Pat. There, Pat, you are free from the cold waters of critical empiricism,
Pat.
Climate modeling papers are invariably published without any valid physical error analysis. The authors, as well as you, Ken, insist precision is accuracy, statistics is physics, and ± indicates physical oscillation. Physical reliability is a foreign concept. Exposure educes hostility.
Your criticism is demonstrated wrong and never corrected. That’s your “critical empiricism.”
And then you claim I live in a warm little pond. Rich but inadvertent irony.
I’ll reply in more detail later, Pat, when I’ve more time.
But in the meantime, Pat, it is fair to observe that you still give no indication of having read the post you criticize.
I gave indication here, Ken.
I’ve seen your detailed replies. They’re not worth reiterating.
You obviously don’t look in the mirror.. evah.
I can complete understand why.
Would make you puke !!
All you’ve done is make spurious comments, Mr. Nice.
You are what you are, bd.. a scientific incompetant !!
No-one can help you with that.
“incompetant”
Too good to pass up. In general, I disdain Cliffie Claviners, but this is right up there with, “Before, ah didden even no how to spill unginer, an now I are one”.
Because the bdgwx fool wouldn’t understand it…(has been proven)
… so why should Pat waste his time… again..
qltm
Answered. Merely for the umpteenth time. bdgwx displays all the attributes of ignorant fixation.
Right, Willard. You don’t know and lack the integrity to be civil about it.
Most beloved Pat,
You really are not placed to indulge into civility porn.
Speaking of which, I know enough formal chaps to recognize integrity when I see it. BDGWX has integrity. You don’t.
bdgwx has the scientific integrity of a sewer rat…. basically NONE.
And you are several layers of sewer below him.
You wouldn’t know “integrity” if it slapped you in the face. !
You know that. We all know that.
Good morning, Mr. Nice.
Still here?
I don’t do down votes, but that comment about Pat Frank deserves a down vote.
I didn’t down vote you. This is my down vote.
Thank you, Tom. This means all the world to me.
Right, Willard. You don’t know and lack the integrity to be civil about it.
You already said that, Pat.
Here’s the deal. Suppose I only reply to you using phrases you yourself used on that page:
https://pubpeer.com/publications/391B1C150212A84C6051D7A2A7F119
Will that suffice to be civil to you?
Cheers.
Thus spake Willard.
Maybe Pat should be more explicit in what he does mean.
Perhaps you’re solitary in missing the meaning, Willard.
At the end, that insubstantial cavil of a comment, if it is really from Pat Frank, will stick with him, but not with me.
Nothing stick to oozing slime !!
Your dismissal may be a black mark against your powers of perception, Mr. Nice.
Right up there with, I know you are but what am I? Ever so clever, Willard.
Scientists debate evidence and theory. Politicized hacks construct straw man arguments, cast baseless aspersions, and assassinate character. That describes your attack, Pat.
What attack, Willard?
You clearly do not understand personal attacks.
What personal attack, Willard?
You people live in science-fantasyland, Pat, making all sorts of self-serving assumptions about Climateball that make your life easy.
Point out the ease-making assumptions here, Willard. Or here,
Waiting …
First, an argument from authority. Next, an argument from incredulity. Both invalid, Pat.
It’s an argument from demonstrate your case, Ken.
I wonder who Mr. Nice is. Whoever it is has a problem with negligent superficiality, which Pat apparently found inspiring.
Pure whataboutism.The behavior of others doesn’t absolve you, Ken.
I have consulted your comments, Pat. I have read your explanations. They appear to make no sense whatsoever
Given the poor quality of your thought, that’s no surprise, Ken.
Pat, your comments have descended into accusatory nonsense, showing no evidence of actually following the logic of the conversation.
The logic of the conversation is that you don’t know what you’re talking about, Ken.
Look, Pat,
I’m not going to play 20 questions with you, Pat.
If you want to critique my comments, Pat, do so.
But I don’t have the time or inclination to play any other game than Climateball,
Pat.
“I don’t have the time or inclination to play any other game than Climateball,”
You invented it. Ken.
No one sane is interested in that game. You’re free to leave any time. And take your marbles with you.
You continue to make criticisms consistent with a conclusion that you have never read the post, Pat.
You continue like a record with a monotonous track, Ken.
Your “Ken” is a chimera, Pat.
Vacuousness, Pat.
That’s all you’ve offered,
Pat.
Except for this, which you’ve fled.
Science is not Philosophy, Pat.
And fled it again.
Just go away, you loser.
You should look back at your comments here.
Pathetic little willard .. still yapping away.
So funny
Like a 5-year-old having a tanty !!
Oh, Mr. Nice.
I don’t think “you” means what you make it mean.
Oh, and Mr. Nice –
https://andthentheresphysics.wordpress.com/2024/01/16/how-to-cavil-like-cranks/
The Irish broadcaster RTE invited him to debate on their PrimeTime news program back in 2016. He wiped the floor with the alarmist NGOs and was never invited back. RTE are now are a CCNOW partner, and completely untrustworthy when it comes to reporting climate issues.
Professor Ray Bates was the only one on that program who was qualified to speak. The Irish weather forecasting service Met Eireann also paid tribe to him. See here: https://www.met.ie/prof-ray-bates-1940-2024
Since RTE tow the government line, in recent years he has given presentations elsewhere
woudn’t it be nice if Michael Mann or Gavin Schmidt could summon up a little bet of grace and humility and maybe even show a willingnesss to discuss
To discuss what? Their dishonesty? I don’t think they are willing to discuss their dishonesty. They want to hide it, instead.
Very nice.
A wonderful story, Christopher. It conveys that Ray Bates was a joy to know. My loss. But I do know you. 😉
A suggestion if I might. That is, to dedicate your paper to the memory of Ray Bates.
I dedicated (2019) Propagation… to the memory of Bob Carter, who was also a toweringly ethical scientist and a fine man. And I remain happy at having taken that opportunity to commend him.
Thank-you for gifting us with that great, “ancient truth that he who changes his mind when the evidence requires it provides irrefutable proof that he has a mind.”
It ranks right up there with your marvelous, “have the courage to do nothing.”
There are many AGW apostles, echolytes, hangers-on, stooges etc… who will never change their minds, despite knowing that they have a total lack of actual science to back up their belief.
This is proof that they don’t have much cognitive functionality of their own.
From the article: “I discovered, and named, the Pause. From 1997 to 2015, a period of almost 19 years, there was no global warming at all. Yet the vast majority of the world’s news media had kept this fact secret.”
The world’s news media was too busy during that time proclaiming one year after another as being the “hottest year ever!”, based on the lies they were being told by NASA Climate and NOAA.
The UAH satellite chart shows NO years between 1998 and 2015 were warmer than 1998, so going by that chart, noone can claim that any year between the year 1999 and 2015 was the hottest year ever.
Yet NASA Climate and NOAA rigged their surface temperature charts to eck out just a little warmer temperature each year during that time span so they could continue the lie that CO2 is making things hotter and hotter and hotter, by pretending the temperatures were getting hotter and hotter and hotter.
Temperature Data Mannipulators will not stand the test of time. At some point, they will be seen for the liars they really are.
By your definition UAH is ran by “Temperature Data Mannipulators” so I fail to see how using it is going to sway someone’s opinion regarding your point. BTW…insinuating that Dr. Spencer and Dr. Christy are liars is pretty harsh. I’ve not seen convincing evidence that they lied as part of publishing UAH.
“By your definition UAH is ran (sic)”
Basic English grammar is clearly not your thing.
No it definitely is not.
Neither is anything remotely related to science.
Wrong.
You clearly do not understand bdgwx’ points.