From SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY and the “department of lost funding” comes this gloomy prediction.
Trump Action on Clean Power Plan threatens air quality, health, and economic benefits
In response, Dr. Charles Driscoll, Distinguished Professor of Environmental Systems Engineering at Syracuse University & member of the National Academy of Engineering, made this statement:
“Our research shows that a power plant standard like the Clean Power Plan could save thousands of lives in communities across the United States every year. The health gains from a standard like the Clean Power Plan yield net economic benefits that would far outweigh the costs. The economic benefits tend to be greatest in highly populated areas near or downwind from coal-fired power plants that experience a shift to cleaner sources with the standards. If we overturn the Clean Power Plan we will forfeit important health benefits and undermine the longstanding American tradition of energy innovation and clean air progress, at a time when we need it most.”
Dr. Driscoll led a 2015 study on air quality and health benefits of carbon standards similar to the Clean Power Plan, published in the journal Nature Climate Change.
Dr. Driscoll and colleagues showed that strong carbon standards provide widespread clean air and health benefits throughout the United States. They calculated state-by-state air quality and health outcomes, and determined the greatest health gains occur in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Texas, Illinois, Michigan, and New York.
Dr. Driscoll is available to comment on the clean air, health, and ecosystem consequences of the anticipated Trump Administration executive order on rolling back the Clean Power Plan.
###
For more information:
Driscoll, CT, Buonocore, JB, Levy, JI, Lambert, KF, Burtraw B, Reid, SB, Fakhraei, H, Schwartz, J. 2015. US Power plant carbon standards and clean air and health co-benefits. Nature Climate Change. doi: 10.1038/NCLIMATE2598.
Buonocore, JB, Lambert, KF, Burtraw, D, Sekar, S, Driscoll, CT. 2016. An Analysis of Costs and Health Co-benefits for a U.S. Power Plant Carbon Standard. Plos One. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0156308.
Project Website: http://eng-cs.syr.edu/cleanair
The claim: “Our research shows that a power plant standard like the Clean Power Plan could save thousands of lives in communities across the United States every year”.
Might be credible if there were some death certificates that said: died of lung failure/lung disease due to power plant emissions.
I challenge any of the paid ecochondriacs to show me just one.
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It’s another great day for America!
BS. the CCP was not about “air quality” or health. As for economic benefits it was based on a heavily inflated “social cost of carbon”. You can’t have it both ways.
Oh wait, maybe making energy prices “sky rocket” was one of his economic benefits.
You mean like to those who ran things like Solyndra? Solyndra went bankrupt, its CEO’s didn’t.
Oh yeah, want to jerk all the howler-monkeys in line, cite “health” which is the new secular Virtue. Never mind that nobody on Earth ever got asthma or a heart attack from CO2! The actual FACTS, documented in endless detail from legitimate meta-analysis by the Cochrane Collaboration and others, show that actual morbidity and mortality outcomes are largely out of our hands. They are DIRECTLY caused by the intersection of socio-economic status with genetics, full-stop. Also known as, “poverty causes ill health” which is what the trillion-dollar medical, pharma, “fitness” and diet industries don’t want you to know. One thing it sure as shootin’ ISN’T caused by is Global Warming!
“Dr. Driscoll and colleagues showed that strong carbon standards provide widespread clean air and health benefits throughout the United States.“. No mention of Carbon Dioxide standards.
Not tired of winning!
a victory celebration. untimely.
WAAAAAA
Let them cry.
I look at it this way:
If China needs a few decades to develop their economy before de-carbonising, the US needs at least 8 years of restoring and remediating its economy before we look again at the observations and decide whether or not to strive to reduce the source of the greening of the planet.
a breath of fresh air it is!
Full of CO2
g
Trump’s Executive Orders of March 27, 2017
Presidential Executive Order on Promoting Energy Independence and Economic Growth
Presidential Memorandum on The White House Office of American Innovation
Presidential Executive Order on the Revocation of Federal Contracting Executive Orders
Yay!
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/08/14/president-obama-begs-america-not-to-tear-up-the-paris-agreement/comment-page-1/#comment-2277845
[excerpt of my post on August 14, 2016]
As a Canadian, I think I have the right to make a brief comment on your election – my justification is the War of 1812, where you burned Toronto and we burned the White House. Nobody here likes Toronto, so we still think we got the better of that deal. 🙂
For most countries, I suggest that the question of a Hillary vs a Donald would come down to “who gets energy right (Donald), and who gets it utterly wrong (Hillary).”
Cheap, reliable abundant energy is the lifeblood of society, and our very cheap fossil fuel energy should provide our two countries with an overwhelming economic advantage, IF the greens would stop sabotaging our economies.
Since the USA is a global power, there are more issues than just the domestic economy – I don’t think you need any more foreign wars for a long while, except to exterminate terrorist gangs. So you might ask yourself who is more likely to start a needless foreign war that will further bankrupt your treasury.
The USA should stick to token “weekender” invasions like Grenada. You might consider Quebec – they’re nearby, they’ve been acting up for quite a while, and you’ve already done Toronto.
Best regards, Allan
Indeed it is a great day for America. The Court had already put a stay on the CPP as being over-reach. This should add another nail to the coffin of the CPP.
Sad to say that I went there, but at least I was an EE, and not an Enviro Engineer there.
I love the audacity, though. “Hey, we can engineer the environment! Sky’s the limit, chaps, what with Climate Change and all, hey? Grant money galore. Say, we’ll all retire rich, rich rich!”
You might think they would find the engineering of human adaptation to climate a more lucrative field of study, if it were not for the present orientation of the climate science paradigm.
Unfortunately, people in group-think echo chambers eventually come to believe their delusions. Especially those educated beyond their intelligence. They all have one thing in common–none of them can balance their own checkbooks, and ALL of them are parasites on other people’s money.
Brian – I originally read that as “Grant money AlGore” Dyslexia can’t be blamed either…
Since the doomsters are heading straight to mortality tactics, how about some explanation of the sharp rise in opioid deaths in the U.S. made possible with lethargic public health response and funded with health insurance?
Don’t forget about the tons of illegal Heroin coming across the southern border. I am getting tired of funerals for 20 somethings who overdosed on these illicit drugs. Most never used a prescription opioid before they started the heroin. Three in the last year and a half in my circle of people.
stephana, I am so sorry for you and your friends, thanks for sharing and getting the word out. The bottom line is the new “Synthetic Heroin” is deadly. Only education can help, so get the word out. Don’t take drugs. I hope your circle of friends can take these tragedies and learn from them and become a force to educate and save lives.
Synthetic heroin is made in China, bought there cheaply by Mexican drug cartels, then smuggled into the US mixed with normal heroin shipments.
https://news.vice.com/story/ultra-potent-synthetic-heroin-is-spreading-across-america
Trump can save young peoples’ lives by building his wall down to the water table, in order to stop cross-border tunnels, a main avenue for heroin smuggling.
IOW we need in effect a moat as well as a wall.
Illegal aliens and trafficked humans enter by foot over the ground or across the river, but many if not most of the drugs enter via tunnels. Some are escorted in by machine gun-wielding cartel soldiers, driving human mules, or inside dead “sleeping” babies, but these routes can’t compete with the volume shipped underground.
Building the wall down to the water table would only help if the wall is made of something that is impossible to tunnel through. Normal concrete and rebar would only slow them down a little.
Tunneling below the water table is possible, just more expensive. Need something water tight to seal the walls and a few pumps.
Yes the Brunels managed it under the Thames 1825-43 although Isambard was nearly killed when the Thames burst in.
And you need ground penetrating radar to find them (tunnels)
Just drop a few tonnes of dry ice down those tunnels.
g
Surely many of the deaths are from abuse of prescription drugs ?
https://www.drugabuse.gov/about-nida/legislative-activities/testimony-to-congress/2016/americas-addiction-to-opioids-heroin-prescription-drug-abuse
A traditional wall or fence may not be the best way to secure the border. Working with a tamping bar over the last few weeks gave me an idea for an alternative.
Tapered rods driven down almost to bedrock and following the contour of the land, like giant metal golf tees spaced close together. Each rod is zinc-coated steel with a hollow middle, which is filled with brightly colored chalk dust. If cut through by tunnelers, the chalk spills out. Compromised rods will ring hollow when struck, and the dust itself will cover the tunnelers and is difficult to remove completely. So border patrols can detect tunneling attempts and locate the exits, which can either be sealed or staked out to intercept the next group of smugglers. The chalk tagging will make it easier to spot nighttime border runners who come through. Afterwards, the modular design allows compromised rods to be quickly removed and replaced.
Instead of trying to prevent breaches (an impossibility), this design assumes that the barrier WILL be breached, and concentrates instead on detection and repair. I’m no engineer, so it’s likely I’ve neglected some aspect, but the general concept seems solid.
dred, add some glow in the dark powder to your chalk, then put a series of black lights along commonly used entrance corridors.
great addition, MarkW
“And, the wailing begins”
Some wailing here too, about the endangerment finding. From Politico today:
I see that David Schnare has stormed off in a huff.
..Ummm, do you not understand what a “TRANSITION TEAM” is…? …
“The job of the appointments team is to identify and vet candidates for all these positions.”
http://www.genfkd.org/presidential-transition-team
Once that position is filled…THEY MOVE ON !!! D’OH !!
Maybe you should learn what “Closed door meetings” are also……..
Anyone guessing what they said inside the meet is just spewing gossip !
..You are right, POLITICO is wailing, but you and they fail fail to show any QUOTES from your targets. !!
Who is Nick “targeting”? He just linked to a relevant article. Chill out.
“you and they fail fail to show any QUOTES from your targets. “
Well, here’s David Schnare, quoting from an email he wrote to E&E:
“”The backstory to my resignation is extremely complex. I will be writing about it myself. It is a story not about me, but about a much more interesting set of events involving misuse of federal funds, failure to honor oaths of office, and a lack of loyalty to the President,” Schnare said.”
Doesn’t sound like just discovering the transition is over.
Here is Delingpole, in Breitbart:
Delingpole, who first reported that Pruitt advocated against reopening the endangerment finding, even suggested that the EPA administrator should resign.
“But what President Trump needs now more than ever are administrators with the political will to do the right thing — which is, after all, the reason so many Americans voted for him,” he wrote. “If Scott Pruitt is not up to that task, then maybe it’s about time he did the decent thing and handed over the reins to someone who is.”
…Greg, he insinuated that David Schnare “Stormed off in a huff” !!
Sorry Nicky, no where in the POLITICO article YOU showed had those quotes !
As per your second “Quote”, sounds like he is trying to get rich from writing a book !
As for your third and forth NEW quotes, disagreements happen in politics !!
…Fourth !! stupid Spell Check !! LOL
“Sorry Nicky, no where in the POLITICO article YOU showed had those quotes !”
My “stormed off in a huff” link had the Schnare quote. He’s pretty huffy. Enough to write to a news outlet about it.
I believe Pruitt is taking the prudent course in not challenging the Endangerment finding at this point – overturning something like that is going to take years of careful preparation. Even with the best evidence built up, any decision like that is going to get shot down at every level of the court system, until you get to SCOTUS. (time to admit that yes, our federal court system is totally political by now) And a long nasty court fight could totally distract from all of the other things that are being done.
Just think about what a legal mess the first travel restriction got Trump into. Every decision that is made today has got to take that level of opposition into account.
But everything else follows on from that. With the endangerment finding in place, all actions will be stayed by the courts. Sometimes you do something because its got to get done, not because it’s easy.
You would think that the scientific method would be sufficient.
Well, if a battle is necessary, so be it. That’s why we elected this president – we wanted this fight.
I am 97% sure that 97% of the content from this site will be wailing.
https://moyhu.blogspot.com
Nick.
Hair splitting mate. I suspect the best tactic for the CAGW sympathiser is to lay low until the dust settles. The gnashing of teeth and hand wringing is not doing you guys any favours.
“From Politico today”
Consider the source. Politico is a leftwing rag.
Methinks too much is being read into Pruitt’s position that legal hurdles were in the cards if the finding was overturned. Pruitt suggested Congress was the place to kill the finding but I don’t see that mentioned anywhere here.
“Consider the source.”
There are two key quotes. One is from Delingpole writing in Breitbart. The other is Schnare, writing an email to E&E. I linked to the originals for both.
Politico has professional journalists and they back up what they say.
Politico or Pravda, Obama administration didn’t seem to make a difference.
The train to perdition is slowly turning around.
But, Lord, it takes miles and miles of track to do a 180. Got to keep turning right at all costs, though. Ponder where we’d be in four years if Hill had won the election. Cold sweat here just thinking how close we came.
Didn’t Willis debunk some of the purported coal-plant downwind-pollution claims (re mercury)?
Might be credible if there were some death certificates that said: died of lung failure/lung disease due to power plant emissions.
I challenge any of the paid ecochondriacs to show me just one.
You fail to realize that these are not “real” deaths in the sense of one being struck by an 18 wheeler. These are hypothetical deaths, similar to the ones attributed to second hand smoke. It takes a lifetime of smoking to (possibly) develop lung cancer, but the mere smell of second-hand smoke at one ten thousandth the concentration is lethal. Same thing here. Just go a few miles downwind of a coal-fired plant, and you see people keeling over like tenpins. Terrible!
I have to agree. I worked in a coal-fired plant and operated a1940’s vintage pulverized coal power station in the late 70’s, during my early career. The percentage of people I worked with back then who are still healthy today (with age factored in) is about the same as the percentage at my next job, the university from which I retired (and my family and social circles). I got fly ash blown in my face for 6 years (in my 20’s) unclogging dust collector and precipitator hoppers with a sledgehammer and iron rods. My mercury levels are no higher than normal at 60. My job would have been less hazardous if the fly ash had not been collected and allowed to fertilize the downwind corn fields, but the EPA had already replaced scientists with activists and shunned the current scepticism of alarmism and possible benefits, citing the then currently popular acid rain meme.
After the EPA required our plant to burn Wyoming Anthracite instead of Local Illinois Bituminous, the workers were exposed to numerous coal-mill fires and more background radioactivity than the operators of the company’s nuclear plants were allowed by the NRC (although we never were monitored). All this to deprive the corn of the sulfur it was accustomed to receiving.
Most of the “studies” you read about in the news every day can be dismissed out-of-hand as “junk science.”
Because they aren’t “science” at all, they are data-runs where existing sets of numbers are re-shuffled in an attempt to match them to some pre-determined desired “association.” By that method, living in a wood-frame house causes hair loss, apartment dwellers die of “indoor air pollution,” and living in a rural county makes your teeth all fall out. The idea that “association” is not “causality” is completely lacking in American education today–I believe by design. Anyone can literally claim anything–and they do.
Speaking of which; finding the ONE, that is.
Has CNN and their bunch of talking bobble heads, found that person yet who says the Russians told him to vote for Donald Trump for President ??
It can’t be all that difficult.
There are only 435 voters you need to subpoena; namely all the members of the College of Cardinals.
Excuse me for that slip of the tongue; I meant the Electoral college.
G
The NSA must know how each one of them voted. They don’t have to out himer via the controlled leak channel; just pay himer enough to go and tell CNN themself.
| /\ | LOL | /\ |
I could hear green heads exploding all over the country when the pen hit the paper.
Then there is some math on the endangerment finding coming round the corner from last week.
Nick, can you dissect the equations for us in the latter part of Monckton’s presentation?
Green heads exploding you say. Happy to oblige. link
Steve Case,
Maybe you and commeiBob can find a version that blends both Trump killing the Obo’s regs with the news the that the one of his old pals (who had a lot to do with Penn State’s “investigation” of his research) has recently been convicted of charges related to his “covering up” for Sandusky.
If I’m not mistaken, didn’t the basis of “The Mann’s” lawsuit against Mark Setyn have something to do with a comparison to the robustness of “the looking into” Sandusky’s actions and “the looking into” Mann’s actions”?
His Lordship’s badge is a trifle wonky.
g
“Nick, can you dissect the equations for us”
Hopefully. he’ll write it out properly at some stage. It’s very hard to do from talk and slides. He was writing a series here, which seems to overlap with the talk. Then he stopped, saying that he couldn’t say any more because it might prejudice publication.
Agree. I have watched the talk three times, stop motioned to jot the equations. Found only one possible slight of hand noted just below. The Bode math appears OK from what is on the slides.
I’ll bet the Bode math does not have the phase conditions in it.
Most ” op amp ” modeled systems; other than those operating only at nearly DC, already have at least 90 degrees of phase shift between the in and the out.
So virtually all AC systems would not obey the DC design math.
But then the climate system is not an op amp anyway.
G
“So virtually all AC systems would not obey the DC design math.”
What Monckton, and many others, seem unable to come to terms with is that his system is inherently a DC model. It has no timing information, or at least didn’t when presented here. So all the talk about Bode plots, phase etc is irrelevant.
Nick,
The bigger problems with the Bode model are twofold. The first 2 paragraphs of Bode’s book list the assumptions and preconditions behind the analysis, two of which are grossly violated.
First, the Bode model assumes that the input and output are linearly related to each other and since the input is a delta forcing in W/m^2 and the output is a delta T in degrees, where W/m^2 is proportional to T^4, this precondition is not met. The IPCC asserts ‘approximate linearity’ which is also not true across the range of T found on the planet.
Second is that the Bode model assumes the existence of an implicit, infinite source of Joules to power the gain. This can not the Sun which is also the input (the Sun delivers W/m^2 of forcing to the input). Consider an op-amp with the input and power supply pin connected together. Do you really believe that such a system can deliver more output power than is being delivered to the input/power supply pin?
What happens when the power supply is limited is that the gain (sensitivity) is significantly reduced. In an audio amplifier, this is called clipping where the realized gain is reduced, the output becomes non linearly related to the input and under these conditions, the Bode equations no longer work. This is the exact nature of the distortion Hansen/Schlesinger introduced to climate science when they bastardized the Bode model to make it fit the CAGW narrative.
My buddy’s thesis advisor once complained that students would use any formula no matter how inappropriate. Sadly I’ve discovered that the problem carries on to the PhD level.
It occurs to me that some might demand examples of the misuse of mathematics at the PhD level. Statistics is particularly prone to misuse. example
“Misuse”
Sections in that link I’d recommend to locals include
4.7 Proof of the null hypothesis
and
4.8 Confusing statistical significance with practical significance
Nick,
From proof of the null hypothesis.
“This does not prove the defendant’s innocence, but only that there is not proof enough for a guilty verdict.”
For the case of climate science, the defendant is CO2. There’s certainly not enough proof that CO2 emissions are harmful to the planet, the biosphere and especially man and if anything, the skeptical position has far more solid proof.
Regarding statistical vs. practical significance.
Statistically, CO2 has little significance relative to temperature. It’s a case of coincidence, not causality. Was it the Industrial Revolution that brought on a more favorable climate, or was it a more favorable climate that was responsible for the Industrial Revolution? The later is the null hypothesis as much of the post LIA warming occurred before CO2 emissions were significant.
Practically, CO2 is at the base of the food chain, without which, we wouldn’t even be here, thus increasing CO2 is necessarily good for the biosphere, especially considering that most plant life evolved when CO2 levels were far higher. Practically, inexpensive energy produced by fossil fuels is the main reason mankind’s technology has advanced so far so quickly, without which the computer you use to post CAGW rhetoric would not exist.
George,
Modern op amps have the same AC and DC transfer function until they run out of bandwidth when the AC phase delay needs to be accounted for. Nominally, the phase delay is 0 degrees for the + input and 180 degrees for the – input. But you are right that the climate is not an op amp, or even an amplifier for that matter, and Bode’s analysis has absolutely no correspondence to the climate system.
Bode’s linear feedback amplifier analysis is basically a small signal AC analysis, as it was based on vacuum tube amplifiers whose DC transfer function sets the operating point while the AC transfer function established the gain. Not that it was impossible to build DC amplifiers out of tubes and Tektronix did this routinely for early tube based oscilloscopes. You just need + and – supplies, as opposed to + and ground, and set the operating point to 0V.
Not Nick, but longtime readers know I have IMO tangled successfully with Monckton’s math before. His new talk about finding irrefutable errors to knock down the consensus really boils down to two important ideas supported by two important math errors. Most important is what is (at 95% confidence level) the maximum possible ECS? Brought sufficiently low, the precautionary principle (Taleb black swan argument) does not apply anymore and the alarm is cancelled. Less important theoretically but more relevant for policy is the likely ECS, which a suitable (min 5%) discount rate informs a low SCC from which adaptive rather than mitigative policy decisions then flow.
There have been previous efforts to constrain the high tail of ECS. Annan and Hargreaves 2011 paper used informed Baysian priors to estimate max ~6 (most likely 1.9). Still max CAGW territory. Lewis and Curry 2014 used observational energy budgets to estimate a max from 4.05 to 5.4 (depending on time frames) with most likely ~1.65; still the max is CAGW territory. Monckton’s talk threw in ice cores at Mean 3.3C +/- 3C; still CAGW territory. I thought that slide just a distraction.
Now the math errors.
Happer 2015 saying the CO2 no feedbacks doubling sensitivity is not the canonical 1.16C, but rather 40% less ~0.7C because the 1.6 picosecond delay is overlooked. I have tried in vain to verify this by finding Happer’s talk and reading it. For now lets take Monckton’s word for Happer. That correction, using the rest of the IPCC simple feedback equation unchanged, gives a maximum 3.2 and a likely 2.1. This is useful, because maximum possible 3.2 starts to cancel the alarm, and the likely value significantly lowers SCC.
Then Monckton reworks the IPCC feedbacks portion into the correct nonlinear rather than additive form (from the 10th edition Bode 1955) to show the amplification feedback is smaller than the IPCC form implies (the ‘right/wrong) slides. Note there is an apparent slight of hand by first lowering the cenral estimate from 3 to 2.25, a nonmathematical assertion telated to Charney 1988 and unproven. My own view is that with Lindzens cannonical no feedbacks 1.16, the AR4 ECS central estimate 3C gives a net Bode f 0.63, not 2.25C/Bode net f 0.485. At any rate, as published in my post at CE on his irreducibly simple equation, Bode f is likely ~0.25 based on observational considerations about water vapor and feedbacks. So I agree with Monckton’s mathematical conclusion if not his exact parameterization. Resultbis max 2.7, likely 2.3. Sort of Happerish, good not great.
But put the two together, and is max 1.9. Cancel CAGW. And likely is 1.6C, which is essentially Lewis and Curry 2014. Much to like about this convergence. But the real key is contraining the possible high end ECS to below 2 rather than 4.5.
I suspect Constraints will be a very important paper when it comes out.
And of course those who freeze to death due to not being able to afford to heat their place or power outages due to plants shutting down with no viable replacements – What study do they fall under?
Just silence from the alarmists.
Those are acceptable sacrifices need to create the perfect green world.
They are still deaths. So now we have the Pigs teaching the sheep to bleat “All lives are equal, some lives are more equal”?
George Orwell pegged it.
“What study do they fall under?”
How’s about…
What is the quickest and most efficient way to de-populate the earth.
Isn’t that the over arching goal?
It is if you refer to the Sierra Club’s manifesto. Depopulate humans, that is. You know, to save the earth for the nobler species.
Notice how the greens never include themselves as being among the humans who need to be eliminated.
Mark, you got that right. But I always felt that those who advocate such things (such as depopulation) should get int the front of the line; you know, as good examples.
And what about those whose livelihoods for palm oil plantations are cleared for insane green energy? They do not freeze, but starve. So far, it has always been the case that a warmer world has brought great benefits to life on Earth. Quite apart from the plant food CO2. Why do the Apocalypse disciples want us to hold on to the level of the small ice age? And I recommend the most interesting top POST in WUWT for this level. So clear is nothing more, and it seems that it takes a non-scientist like Trump to open up the eyes of many people what is really going on.
It would be perfectly FINE with the Great Blue-Green Bubble if everyone not a member of their chosen Elect became extinct forthwith. Then they could turn all their Love and Empathy on each other while they slurp their vegan smoothies. They can all wear burkhas, so no one has to be triggered by anyone white, male, carnivorous, or gainfully employed. . . the Government is Mommy, rocking their cradle forever.
Oh, those poor little Babies. The main reason why they are upset is because they, along with others, will no longer have the Government titty to suck, like in the past. Of course, they aren’t going to mention that, oh no! What they are doing is come up with every possible negative effect, no matter how improbable. And it is placed before all else, including what really has them flummoxed: the nipple they are sucking on, from which everybody else is paying.
I was not a big fan of Trump, and in fact I had to hold my nose before voting for him. But he continues to pleasantly surprise me. And this is yet one of many.
Some of the biggest lies ever told start with the phrase “our studies show that…..”
Very true.
One of my favorites:
Research indicates…
Research indicates that studies show that some of the biggest lies ever told begin with “research indicates” or “studies show.”
Trump’s Executive order (EO) just begins a long process that returns the CPP and the SCC study back to review within the agency. The the Soros-Steyer funded Green Blob will fight and litigate in courts and with their MSM lapdogs’ propaganda machine.
The Congressional GOP needs to send environmental rollback legislation to Trump to sign to prevent the Left shopping for sympathetic, activist Federal judges (as they did with his visa-immigration bans).
The good news is that SCOTUS had already stayed CCP, so we seem to have a legal foot in the door first, and hold the whip hand. With Gorsuch soon to join SCOTUS, and reportedly another vacancy coming this summer, things just could work out if cooler heads prevail in Trump’s team.
What’s your source regarding the rumor of another SC vacancy soon?
MarkW,
Source? Gosh, rumors abound, from those with high connections, like Ted Cruz. But there’s no one on the record, sorry pal. Get back to me in the fall, and we can talk over a beer.
Didn’t Ginzberg go to New Zealand after the election?
I want to believe it, however I’ll keep my optimism in check until there is something more to go on.
Are you talking about Alan there Tom in T ??
g
Don’t your coal fired electricity plants in the US have scrubbers? If there is still any particulate matter left, pave your gravel roads. Actually I would rather you did not, it adds to UHI.
They’ve had scrubbers since at least the 70’s.
My understanding is they all have, we just tore down the Marysville power plant that had been mothballed for decades. That was one of the original Thomas Edison era plants. I’m surprised that the DTE, aka Detroit Edison Company wasn’t forced to keep it as a historic monument.
I remember the Detroit Edison Company well. One hot summer night in the early 70’s, I slept in a screened in porch in a rented house in Windsor. Across the river from Detroit. I and everyone outside and the whole city of Windsor work up covered in soot. Strange, those things don’t happen anymore. Also strange that in the cooling period it was 104 F in downtown Windsor. I wonder if it gets that hot anymore in the new warm period.
My car ends up covered in soot, every time it rains in Silicon Valley.
No coal burners near by or even far by.
It’s either diesel trucks etc. or road rubber.
G
Paul Jackson have you seen this Michigan report regarding the Michigan electricity supply situation?
‘Michigan Capacity Resource Assessment’, Jan.31, 2017
Many Michigan businesses have already agreed to curtail electricity use if needed.
At:
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/energy/Michigan_EGEAS_Report__01_31_2017_550217_7.pdf
Zero emissions is the new goal, don’t you know? And that includes “dangerous pollutant” CO2.
The power Sooner power plant in Oklahoma has scrubbers. The fly ash is sold for soil stabilizing under roads and the bottom ash (glassy residue) is spread on the dirt roads.
Then they should sooner ban all smoking tobacco.
And simultaneously legalize and encourage vaping as a replacement.
(Vaping’s availability as a fallback means that tobacco prohibition is feasible.)
..They are trying to ban vaping..
The main reason why they are trying to ban vaping is because it isn’t taxed as heavily as cigarettes.
My understanding re Vaping is that you end up with oil in the lungs, which your body has a lot of trouble
getting rid of. (as it does not evaporate).
Trouble with cigarettes, is they just don’t kill people fast enough; like before they get to breeding age.
g
It does tend to kill them before they have a chance to draw much Social Security.
More left for me.
I have been hearing blunt popping sounds all day. I thought it was the hot water pipes expanding and contracting. I guess it is the green skulls popping. There! There was another! I am just going to turn up the “Marriage of Figaro” opera playing in the background.
Let Trigglypuff vent…
O.M.G. ! You’ve found a video of Griff (and whoever the hot chick is) !! ROTFLMAO ….Thanks, I needed that !
She doesn’t have red hair; so it’s NOT Brunhilde !
g
Butch and Javert and george,
Meet social justice warrior Cora Segal or (Miriam) or anthropomorphism of Roz of Monsters Inc.
See Paul Joseph Watson’s youtube channel for a full amusing expose on the potty-mouthed screaming university graduates. Title “What a Social Justice Warrior (SJW) Looks Like”
She is also typical of what we as CAGW skeptics have to deal with in the green activists. same same same
Paul
I saw this video a while back, and the not-so-pent-up anger and intolerant virtue-signaling from this red-faced, 250+ pound mound of quaking flesh is just stunning. I’m guessing this is a totally unaccomplished & unqualified kool-aid drinker reacting to society refusing to grant her/it(?) any shred of credibility.
Pet trolls like Griff (when he isn’t attacking women) are useful for their unintended humor content, but if this is where our children and their participation medals & useless-but-expensive college degrees are taking us, I ain’t going.
Wow-wee!
I’ve never attacked any women.
In fact I believe I’ve called out misogyny when it has atypically found its way into these comments.
In fact isn’t calling that lady what you did attacking women?
Prediction: There will not be another coal-fired plant built in this country, regardless of whether a new rulemaking exercise eliminates any of the EPA regulations (a new rule-making must occur if the existing rules are to be replaced/eliminated – it’s not just a stroke of the pen).
No more coal? Why not? Do people really believe this carbon pollution/footprint nonsense?
Although the link between climate change and human activity has been and is still advocated in our schools, science institutions and media as fact, it is not. Wisdom eventually will dictate.
An untested hypothesis does not justify action (carbon tax, funding wind/solar power) to combat “man-made” climate change. In comparison to the 4 previous interglacial peaks it is has to be asked why the current one is colder. The sun, eccentricity and the planet’s wobbling tilted spin in combination with ocean currents, air mass movement, clouds and albedo are the dominant climate drivers.
The atmospheric heat gain from the high altitude absorption/emission of IR energy by the fossil-fuel CO2 molecule is not in question, the heat gain’s significance is, as there is no evidence of it. At a less than decadal annual parts per million pace CO2 levels will continue to increase, perhaps even decrease….so what? (IMHO). Thermal (coal and natural gas), hydro-electric and nuclear power are currently the only means to maintaining base load power to the electrical grid, coal as well as being the safest is affordable, reliable and abundant. The toxic issues of carbon combustion are solvable problems. For most of the third world it is the only power supply solution.
As we all know, or should know, CO2 is not toxic, along with its very slight warming effect it is plant food. Higher CO2 levels increase a plant’s root size and improves its water retention abilities (less stomata per unit area), thus enabling greater crop yields to feed our super abundant population.
Here in Ontario the situation is rather strange. In spite of the uncertainties surrounding the issue our educated and political class actually believe the carbon pollution/footprint nonsense. Everyone wants to save the world, and for the elites that means being on board the good ship AGW….and they are not going away, as the current warm period, if anything like the last, likely has quite a few more decades before hitting its peak.
So yeah, you could be right Joe.
Natural gas pipelines that supply power plants have security risks. Coal fired plants can have coal storage for 90 days or more.
If the gas supply pipeline goes down, the electric power is gone until repairs can be made.
That so? How much will you wager on that?
Care to put a time limit on that wager?
Nat gas is cheaper now, but it won’t always be.
Ah, I see. Since you’re the one making bold predictions, ball’s in your court. Tells us, how long will it be before another coal-fired generator is built in this country?
It’s a bold prediction to say that never is too long a time frame?
The switch back to coal will come when coal becomes cheaper than than nat gas.
Will it happen? Yes
When will it happen? Heck if I know.
Uh, wait, you’re not the bloke making the bold prediction. You on my side, or his?
Don’t start celebrating yet. As Pat Michaels pointed out in his ICCC12 address, if we don’t vacate the EPA’s endangerment finding this executive order will be halted in the courts. We’re going about this bass ackwards.
Don’t we get to play the sue and settle game now?
Yeah. It’s good to be ‘da King.
I don’t think so. The endangerment finding just sets up the playing field for things like the CPP. It is still within the president’s power to send it back to the bullpen along with it’s friend, SCC. That gives us time to work on getting the entire game cancelled, which is something that only Congress can do.
http://libertystreeteconomics.typepad.com/.a/6a01348793456c970c01b7c7e78a4e970b-500wi
Just look at how the location of coal plants and low life expectancy correlate when you selectively look at just the counties with coal plants and low life expectancy! I think what you are doing wrong is not looking at only the data that fits your narrative.
…my new sarcasm tag
What’s the source of that map? There’s no coal-fired generator on the WA/ID border that I am aware of.
And no plant is near there according to this database:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Category:Existing_coal_plants_in_the_United_States
From the location on the map, the dot appears to correlate with the Clearwater Paper Mill in Lewiston, Idaho. I worked on the installation of a new black liquor recovery boiler project back in 1986-1987 (Gotterverken technology) – and there was not a coal fired power generation plant in sight back then.
Something new, perhaps????
I doubt it though..puts the whole shebang into the realm of ‘fake news’ or at least ‘inaccurate map’.
Regards,
MCR
Errata on last post:
Gotaverken and not Gotterverken.
A photo of the boiler when the mill was owned by Potlatch Corp:
http://inthesetimes.com/images/articles/lewiston.jpg
MCR
Michael C. Roberts,
The very last thing Clearwater (nee Potlatch) needs there is a coal-fired generator! They have bio-fuel to spare for that on site. My father worked there for 35 years, as have countless relatives and acquaintances, as I grew up in Lewiston. Incidentally, much of what appears in that photo is gone now, since they decommissioned and razed the big “kraft process” pulp and paper lines. All that remains is a big tissue mill and ancillary facilities.
PS Not to mention the elephant in the room – several nearby big hydroelectric dams, and abundant, cheap electrical power. I’m sure they generate some power on site burning bio waste, but they surely rely on the grid for 99% of the stable electricity required.
RWT, go to Ferc and look up the entire list by age/capacity. Since 1995 the average retirement age of old coal has been 48 years. The present installed base on your chart has an average age of 42 years. About 1/3 of the capacity on that chart will be retired by ~2025. Despite Trump and Pruitt, unlikely more coal capacity will be built in the next couple of decades. CCGT has a cost <~ $1500/kw, takes 2.5 years to install, and has a thermal efficiency of 61%. The only newish USC coal plant in the US is Turk. Cost $3000/kw, took 4 years to erect, and has 42% thermal efficiency. On a pure fuel cost basis, natural gas is cheaper than USC coal at any price below ~$8/mbtu. It is presently <$3. Game over for a few decades at least. Between Permian, Marcellus, and Utica, US has vast shale gas TRR.
The sorta reassuring thing is that Trump has done some rather deceptive actions in the recent past. What I am thinking of was his meeting with Al Gore, who left the meeting in other than high indignation. What is being done is enough to cause green heads to explode, so Delingpole and a few maximalists among our commenters are freaking out a bit early.
I hope the US courts haven’t been too subverted by subjective airy fairy ‘social justice’ activist judges. The rational temporary ban on immigration from the most dangerous regimes and failed states was an eye opener for me. The idea that so far, terrorist acts haven’t come from there to the US is poor logic. Terrorists from there have been welcomed into Europe and they took the easy way to kill infidels. I find Democrats make very selective use of the Precautionary Principle.
My face is hurting and I blame Trump. I can’t stop smiling.
One way to redirect the EPA and the question of endangerment is to pass legislation that all EPA regs and rules have to be backed by empirical evidence and research funded outside of the EPA sphere. Additionaly, that the only models allowed are mathematical, physical and the like that without numeriacl complexity can be used as is to make predictions and who’s background exists in the literature. Eliminating entirely climate models. A model such as van der Waals equaiton, or gravity are just fine. But a massive system of partial differential equations that require a block box to use no.
Isn’t a “cost vs benefit” analysis rule already in place? Agencies have been thumbing their noses at it for eight years, since O’Bummer refused to enforce it.
If the EPA didn’t follow it’s own rules then doesn’t that provide a huge opening to vacate any EPA findings and regulations during this period?
MarkW, that’s one aspect for the ongoing multi-state class action lawsuit against EPA, on behalf of which SCOTUS stayed the CCP.
There they go again, confusing and conflating real air pollution with their fake “carbon pollution”. Just one of many tactics the Climate Liars like to use.
https://youtu.be/h51IP3Z_A9A
Scott Pruitt
“Undoing climate change agenda means opportunity”
What more needs to be said ?
https://youtu.be/h51IP3Z_A9A
Hmmm, sorry, transfer does not seem to be working ???…Arrrg !
Stuck on this video ?
The “Forces of Darkness” go deep: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-03-29/smoking-gun-obama-defense-deputy-slips-live-tv-reveals-spying-trump-team-and-leaking
Hey anything is possible if the right politicians are in cahoots with the right greasy politicians and bureaucrats.
The Sierra Club and their radical activists masquerading as public servants manipulated the 3 west coast states to remove hydro power from being considered renewal in order to concoct a phony need for more wind and solar renewable energy to justify more subsidies and line the pocket so their crony friends in the green biz.