Are We Chasing Imaginary Numbers?

Guest Essay by Kip Hansen

 i_gsl

 Spoiler Alert: This essay is not about the mathematical entity the imaginary number. I do think that an essay here about imaginary numbers of that sort would be interesting, but this isn’t going to be it. This essay, while not about the usual fare seen here – AGW; CAGW; Catastrophic Climate Change; Global Cooling; various oxides of carbon; the pH, level, or surface temperature of oceans; or the antics or ethics (or lack of ethics) of various international scientists and politicians — will hopefully be interesting to the majority of readers. It will ask more questions than it answers.

Last Saturday, 3 October 2015, WUWT’s indefatigable Willis Eschenbach published a guest essay regarding an NPR radio report by Ira Flatow that labelled “some recent pictures of flooding in Miami, Florida, as evidence that climate change is real and is already affecting Florida.” In response to a comment I made to that essay, Willis asked this very interesting question:

“…as you say, we can measure sea level with a “high degree of accuracy” … so are we measuring an imaginary thing? And if we average those highly accurate measurements, why would we not get a global average sea level? What am I missing here?”

In science, asking the Right Question is often, maybe always, more important than having the Right Answer. Let’s look at Willis’s questions and see what we can find out about the world and the world of science.

What are the questions here?

  1. Can we measure sea level with “a high degree of accuracy”?
  2. Are we measuring an imaginary thing (when we do so)?
  3. If we average those highly accurate measurements, why would we not get a global average sea level?
  4. What am I [we] missing here?

It is my idea here to ask a more generalized question — what are we measuring in Climate Science and are we measuring an imaginary thing when we do so? — but we can use “sea level” as the thought experiment example.

Let me address the first question first: Is it really possible to measure something like sea level (or surface air temperature 2 meters above the ground or sea surface temperature) with “a high degree of accuracy”?

When I stated in my original comment that we had been measuring sea level with a high degree of accuracy for years, I meant that we knew what sea level could be expected at various places at future times and had an idea what a more generalized “global sea level” might be and what changes had been seen over longer time periods like the last century or so. But for our thought experiment in this essay, let’s define “high degree of accuracy” as the commonly mentioned “annual anomaly” in the scientific literature. For “global average sea level” this is in single digit millimeters, usually 1.7/1.8 up to 3.4 mm per year, somewhere in that range. (For those thinking along on other paths, that might be tenths and hundredths of a degree Centigrade for global average surface air temperature and sea surface temperature, and even smaller, thousandths of a degree C for ocean water temperatures leading to a calculation of ocean heat content.)

Before we get very far, let’s ask “Why do we [they] want to measure global sea level?” The major reason seems to be, in our politicized world of global warming politics, that many want to measure global sea level to show that it is rising (which it has been for quite some time, at least the last 20,000 years) and that this continuing rise is 1) dangerous and 2) due to recent surface temperature rise over the last century, thus 3) due to Global Warming.   The theme is to use sea level rise as a proof of increased thermal expansion of the water in the oceans and increased addition of water from melting land ice deposits, both asserted to be the result of Global Warming caused by increased atmospheric concentrations of greenhouse gases, primarily CO2, since the 1880s . We’ll see later in this essay that this is part of a larger modern scientific movement to produce “single numbers” to represent dynamic systems (some of which are properly known to be nonlinear dynamical systems).

Can we measure sea level to that (+/- 3 to 4 mm) degree of accuracy? Well, for sea level, even at a single precise location, the answer is “No, we can not.” Now, I am not trying to be provocative here, it is a simple matter of fact. If the sea would be so kind as to stand still, even for just a few moments, we could get in a very accurate measurement at a single spot, or even a lot of spots.   Alas, the sea is never still, it is always moving up and/or down: tides, currents, wind chop, waves, wakes of passing vessels, rising and falling air pressure and, in most important locations, all of those at once. Thus, we cannot physically do it; the sea does not stand still long enough for us to make this measurement to that degree of accuracy. This gets only worse when we add in the information that both the dry land itself and the bottoms of the oceans, almost everywhere, are also in vertical motion and busy changing the volume of the ocean basins.

Many will protest: “Look here, Mr. Hansen. You can’t say that. There are scads of very scientific tables, charts, and journal articles very carefully telling us that now only can we make that measurement, we have been doing so for much of human history and [drum roll, please] since 1992 with [gasp!] satellites!”

It is my point here that what we are doing, where the doing is done, is not measurement, but derivation. Many measurements are taken, in many and diverse locations, at many and diverse times. In some cases, there are nearly continuous time series of measurements for particular locations. From these numerous individual measurements, for example, the tide station reports from the Battery in New York City, an interesting (but not to be detailed here) formula is applied to derive a figure, a single number, that represents the average difference between the sea surface and a geodetic bench mark (set in the bedrock of Manhattan Island years ago) over some period of time. We will skip the nearly infinite details as to whether the derived number represents a simple average between highs and lows, or is an average against time.

Let me point out that the NOAA CO-OPS system of tide stations has a very important and pragmatic purpose. Ships and boats need to know the depth of the water they will find in a particular spot – at a dock on the Hudson River or over the sand bar across the inlet – and at a particular time. Thus, tide tables are very important to sea going commerce and recreational boaters. It answers important questions such as: “Can I get there without hitting those nasty rocks (or going aground on that sticky mud) on the bottom? Can I stay here without being set down by the tide on those rocks or mud?” This system was never designed to measure “sea level rise” nevertheless it is used to compute changes in relative sea level trends in ports of American interest. Here are two Wiki articles on sea level: here and here. In the second article, this image is shown:

gslr

Notice please the difference between the trend calculated from tide gauges (orange line with grey error range) and the blue satellite measurements. Tide Gauge data (which measures Relative Sea Level at each tide gauge) accelerates while satellite data, which measures absolute sea level, keeps to its century long trend.

But what of those marvelous satellites? The official NOAA claim is: ”A series of satellite missions that started with TOPEX/Poseidon (T/P) in 1992 and continued with Jason-1 (2001–2013) and Jason-2 (2008–present) estimate global mean sea level every 10 days with an uncertainty of 3–4 mm.”    Results can be seen on graphical form at NOAA’s Laboratory for Satellite Altimetry web site. It is interesting to see the difference in visual impact that results from the use of alternate coloring schemes and to observe the lumpiness of the oceans.

slr_colors

I know many of the readers here are familiar with the sea – Willis and I have each spent a hefty fraction of our lives living on the sea, and an ever greater fraction living at the edge of the seas. Three to four millimeters is between 0.12 and 0.16 of an inch – about the thickness of two American pennies stacked atop one another. Or, for our cousins in the United Kingdom, about as thick as a one pound coin. It is a rare and beautiful and awe inspiring sight to see the ocean smooth as glass to the horizon, or even just across the bay or harbor. In my one-third of a lifetime of living on the sea (totaling > 20 years), I have only occasionally seen the sea so smooth – the slightest breezes bring up wind ripples and chop that far exceeds 3-4 mm, and can build quickly to feet and meters. If a body of water is open to the ocean, undulating ocean swells march from one horizon to the other, swells also measured in multiple feet or meters, and not necessarily traveling in the same direction as the wind chop. This all adds up to a great deal of vertical motion of the sea’s surface – at times exhilarating and at times downright frightening.

Now if NOAA wants to claim that their satellites in their perfect orbits can somehow transmogrify the undulating, rising and falling, uneven surface of the Earth’s ocean to a resolution of +/- 3 to 4 mm, then very well. Who am I to say they can’t, even if I can’t imagine how they might even theoretically do so. Nonetheless, for our purpose here, let us make this distinction: they do not measure “global mean sea level every 10 days” – they don’t even claim to, their claim is that they estimate it. In every real pragmatic sense, they somehow derive a single number from a fabulously massive amount of data – data which in and of themselves are not direct measurements, but inferences of measurements made from other kinds of data.

Let’s quit fooling around. While it would be possible to measure sea level in individual locations, it is difficult and even when done it is not a true measurement, but a derivation from accumulated data and dependent on mathematical and statistical methods and definitions. If you ever find a particular section of sea at “sea level”, it will be totally momentary and accidental.

Sea Level, even “Sea Level at the Battery in New York”, is not properly represented by a single number, above and below some geodetic bench mark. What we call sea level is a derived, calculated number – an average of averages of an array of measurement time series. In this sense, as the calculated mid-point of a range over time, it is, in a practical sense, an imaginary number having no existence in the day-to-day life of the Port of New York.

There is, however, a pragmatic “sea level at the Battery in New York” – which itself is a predictable range above and below some depth of water at a certain point (a point referred to as Local Mean Sea Level) which, when modified by information of expected, predicted tides, can be extrapolated to other points in the harbor, which is useful for mariners despite its less-than-real aspect. It can be used in its gross form (fractions of feet or meters) to determine the depth of water over the bottom at a place and time important to a ship’s captain and crew. Here is the prediction of water levels, relative to MLLW, made for October 9th thru October 11th.

Tides_the_Battery

The bottom line is that sea level, anywhere and at any time, is not a direct measurement. Never. It is a calculated, derived number that represents a precisely defined, but actually quite complicated, idea.

In order to define global sea level, one must participate in an exercise of imagination along the lines of: Imagine that the planet has stopped spinning; that moon has never existed; that the planet is a perfect sphere (or perfectly regular ovoid or flattened sphere); that there is no wind; that the atmosphere is evenly distributed and air pressure is the same at all points; that the temperatures of the seas are all exactly even, everywhere, to all depths; that there are no currents;, that there are no ice caps; that the rivers have stopped flowing into the sea and that gravity is magically equal at all points on the Earth’s surface (it is not, btw): under those conditions, we could then say that global sea level would be precisely “there”, within 3 or 4 mm. My friends, this is what makes Global Average Sea Level, in this special sense, an imaginary number.

So, we have answered Question 2: Are we measuring an imaginary thing (when we do so)?  Yes, we are “measuring”, in a sense, an imaginary thing when we say we are measuring sea level. The resulting calculated, derived number is a creature of our imaginations, an imaginary number.

Question 3 almost answers itself. “If we average those highly accurate measurements, why would we not get a global average sea level?” One can carry out a dizzying number of statistical and mathematical steps and arrive at some number – the more division steps involved the more precise looking the number will be. One can average any set of numbers. In this case, will one arrive at a number that is the “global average sea level”? Let’s look at Question 4 first and come back to this.

Question 4 is “What am we [originally “I”] missing here?”

This is a question of logic, and kind of follows on from an earlier essay I published here in February regarding Uncertainty Ranges.   When one averages a series of numbers that are in reality themselves ranges, then the result must also be a range. In our case today, when averaging a series (or in this case, a computer-full) of imaginary numbers then the result must be another imaginary number, in the same sense as the numbers in the original data set.   You can not average away original measurement error, you can not average away the fact that data given are themselves really ranges rather than single numbers, you can not average away the fact that original numbers themselves are, in the sense discussed here today, imaginary.

Before we too far afield here, let’s try to be clear on what the distinction is between a real number and what I have been calling here an imaginary number. This discussion takes place in the context of the measurement of characteristics of the physical world. For the result of a measurement to be a real number, the thing being measured must itself be measurable and the numerical result representing that measurement must represent something that exists in some meaningful and useful sense. However, the result of a measurement of a thing that itself is not physically measurable, but which can only be derived mathematically based on a definition that itself is an object of our imaginations (not something actually found in the real world), then that result should itself be considered, in this special sense, imaginary as well, despite its seeming precision.

There are innumerable averages of things that can be derived and calculated. Despite that, many of those averages are themselves imaginary, and their meaning and usefulness must always be thoughtfully considered. Such imaginary numbers may have some interesting meaning and some pragmatic usefulness but great care must be taken with their application, because, after all, they are imaginary and do not exist in reality.

Thus the average height of American citizens can be useful in determining the sizes of beds sold to Americans, at least indicating a range to be considered, it would be foolish to declare it the proper height of doorways for all new construction, even with an inch to spare tacked on, or to make exaggerated, scary, claims about public health threats based on the tiniest changes in such a number over some narrowly-selected time period.

Worse yet, and I hope there will be some comments in support of at least this idea, simple averages of averages of averages (all of which start with averaged, imaginary, derived numbers rather than actual measurements) are abominable absurdities. [ref: Simpson’s Paradox, etc.]

Here’s a ridiculous example: If we calculated the average altitude of the land in the state of South Carolina, first averaging the altitude of each county, then averaging the altitude of multi-county regions, and finally averaging regional altitudes, the result would be a number like (a totally pulled-out-of-the-air guess) 125 feet above sea level and when trended from the highest point in the Blue Ridge Mountains to the sea the state could be said to have a slope of XX feet per mile. It makes no difference in this sense if we weight the averages, krig the missing points, homogenize or smooth or smear. This procedure calculates and/or derives an imaginary number in the special sense of our working definition here. Thus, with our magic new imaginary number, it might be claimed that while some areas of South Carolina could be flooded by extreme high tides simultaneous with two feet of rain, on average the people there would not be prone to disaster as even the few expected flooded areas would quickly drain into the Atlantic.  Applying such a totally mathematically correct yet imaginary number to the real world can result it wildly inappropriate conclusions. It was this type of logic powered by imaginary numbers that led a New York Times science journalist to erroneously claim that the global sea level rise caused by global warming (a real rise but an imaginary number) caused increased damages to New York City during Hurricane Sandy — the same error Ira Flatow made in the NPR segment about flooding in Miami, where the flooding referred to occurs at a spot that is below the long-term Mean High Tide, and was so when the street was constructed.

Now, coming back to Question 3:  “If we average those highly accurate measurements, why would we not get a global average sea level?” If we average the very large data set of imaginary numbers for a specific moment in time, we will arrive at a new, even more imaginary, single number that could be called, if everyone were willing to allow it, “global average sea level”.   Would it be pragmatically, practically, meaningful and useful? Maybe, but in a very limited sense…and we would have to be very careful as to what meaning we assigned to it.

Why? See my essay last year about Hurricane Sandy and damages to NY City. The purported sea level rise for the 50 year period 1960 – 2010 “caused by global warming driven sea level rise” should have been 4 inches (roughly half of the 8 inches over the last century). In actuality, only when we use the lowest estimate of subsidence for the Battery couple with the highest estimate of local relative sea level change do we see any positive contribution of absolute, global sea level change to the relative sea level at the Battery, the 0.59 inches in the upper right-hand corner:

Battery_RSL

What’s up here? The acknowledged century-long estimated global sea level rise did not show up at the Battery, not even over the most recent 50 year period. This should not surprise us – attempts to apply a single-number, “global sea level rise”, is ill-thought out – trying to apply an imaginary number to a specific real situation.

Today’s discussion is one way of looking at the current trend in Science in which attempts are made to reduce very complicated dynamic systems to a single number which can then be graphed against time, usually in attempts to do one or more of the following:

  1. to cast blame for the increasing or decreasing number on a substance or action or group, usually incorrectly
  2. using two such graphs of single numbers to correlate some single number with some other single number to sell a desired story, usually to cast blame or give credit, usually incorrectly
  3. to bring attention to [read this as: to cause public concern or worry about] some rising or falling single number in hopes of generating gain [in research funds, fame, public sympathy, public or political support], usually unwarranted

These single numbers, meant to somehow illuminate some feature of the real world, are often, maybe almost always, not real numbers representing real things, but imaginary numbers representing concepts that exist, on a pragmatic practical level, only in our imaginations, which may lack meaningfulness and usefulness, or both. In this special sense, we can rightly refer to them as imaginary numbers. And because they are almost never acknowledged as imaginary numbers which require special care in application, each of the three uses above is followed by “usually incorrectly” or “usually unwarranted”.

 

Now, even if you don’t agree with me, it should be interesting to discuss in comments some of the ongoing efforts to [mis-] use this special breed of derived number, the imaginary number, to sway public opinion in differing scientific fields around the world. I’d really like to hear your views and benefit from your experience.

# # # # #

Author’s Comment Policy: This essay is not really about global sea level, but I doubt we’ll be able to discuss it without also touching on the issues surrounding the issue of global mean sea level. I do know something about it and will try to answer questions.

I’d rather discuss the concept of “Are we chasing imaginary numbers?”

It’s just an idea…let’s talk about it.

# # # # #

 

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Ivor Ward
October 10, 2015 2:43 am

When I was young I was taught to be in awe of Academia. It was a state of higher being, or a place of wonderment, or a coddling home for life. So when I went out into the oil fields and the oceans at 17 to earn a crust instead of entering this higher plane of existence I was slightly jealous of the perceived benefits and kudos, the letters after the name, the titles etc.
I did not realize back then the sacrifices that academics had to make. What a terrible operation it must be to have your common sense surgically removed. The agony caused by the insertion of the socialist morally superior conscience implant. The genetic engineering of the conformity gene, no doubt extracted from a sheep and implanted in the spine in tandem with the yellow streak. Then the modification of the voice box and trachea to enable one to talk absolute rubbish about global climate and not actually choke on it.
I truly realize now the sacrifices that I would have had to make to reach that pinnacle of humanity, the Phd climate scientist and how lucky I was to be allowed to go and get chucked about on a rig boat in the North sea. That really does give you a good grip on reality.
Believe me, when I say that the CAGW meme is utter claptrap it comes from a much firmer grip on reality than 97% of the population of Academia can ever grasp.

Dahlquist
Reply to  Ivor Ward
October 10, 2015 1:27 pm

Ivor,
Well said. Well written. Sounds as if you got a fairly good grip on intelligence outside of the “must be paid for” letters before and after your name.

October 10, 2015 2:43 am

I have to say this is a muddled essay, and I didn’t really like it. For reasons I am struggling to express.,
Firstly it is vaguely anti-science and anti-mathematics. Like much of the AGW outpourings it pretends to belittle a science it doesn’t really understand with appeals to ‘common sense’ (instead of ‘97% of scientists’ etc).
Secondly, the author appears to suffer from an extreme case of Rational Materialism. He thinks there are ‘facts’ and there are ‘models’ and never the twain shall meet.
The only remedy will be to complete my essay ‘models all the way down’ and present it for publication, but in essence it makes the case that it is more rational (if less materialistic) to regard the world as we can know it as almost entirely constructed of models.
As an amateur philosopher of amazing persistence, if not perspicacity, I am deeply worried by anyone who claims to have discovered the One Truth, since I can honestly say that the only One Truth I have ever found is the proposition that the One Truth may well exist, but it will forever be unknowable.
This is of course a very post modern position on knowledge, and has been taken by the third rate brains that infest the Liberal Left to mean that since the ‘Truth is a Social Construct’ any old crap will do and as long as people believe it, it is the Truth. Welcome to the IPCC.
However, as Orwell might easily have remarked, ‘some Truths are more Truthful than others’ and we need to understand, to counteract this post modern mishmash of ‘equivalent ideas’ with a healthy dose of Reality. Reality is what makes some Truths more truthful than others. Reality may be unknowable, but it hasn’t ceased to exist, we posit.
Now if you have followed these rambling to this point, wondering what on earth the point is, it is this.
All knowledge and facts depend on a previous (a priori) metaphysic. Reality, we presume, is there somewhere, but what we experience it as, is constrained by our ability to render it into stuff that we can both talk about and think about, and finally do sums about and make theories about, and so we construct a story in space-time comprising Matter/Energy, Causality and Physical Laws. Etc.
My beef with the rational materialists who call this construct reality, is that it is not, its just the best model we have come up with so far.
My beef with the post-modern Trotsky-ite anti-scientists, is that they conclude that just because it’s a human construction, it has no more validity than any other human construction, implying in fact that Reality does not exist, only the models. And whatever we believe can become the truth. Which is essentially Magick of course.
Yep. The Left believes in Magick.
Now of course belief is a free choice. 🙂
You can believe all manner of arrant nonsense, and if somehow it doesn’t kill you before you produce offspring, it can persist. Adherence to sanity is not a Darwinian prerequisite, and indeed if you dont have to be mad to live here, it certainly helps…There is no intelligent life on earth because frankly, its not that useful a quality..
In a post modern post industrial world where no one is actually working on creating wealth or maintaining the infrastructure at all – just a bunch of machines and a few instantly dismissable geeks – As with Rome, we have the elite, the slaves to do the actual work, and the plebeians provided with bread and circuses only. What matters in such a society is the ability to entertain, to dissemble and to construct the sorts of narratives that get you into positions of political power.
Welcome to the 21st century.
Where the truth, relative to context as I have outlined, is no longer needed by anyone, since no one – apart from the few geeks aforementioned, needs to actually deal with Reality at all. The rest live in a post modern (sub)urban bubble that reads like a Jane Austen Novel. Work is not an issue, only social ideas, morality and the interplay of human relationships.
The world of Convenient Lies.
However this is a geek site, and therefore we have to apply the geek context. It is relatively true to say oceans exist, because we may sail upon them: it is relatively true to say that the concept of sea level has some meaning because the Rockies are not submerged, whereas the Marianas trench is. Ergo sea level may be presumed to lie somewhere between the two, and therefore it has some kind of bounded value and the best technique we have to assessing what that value is in a time and spatial invariant way, is by taking the average of a time and spatial series and averaging them. And if different sets of such measurements taken over different time periods show a rising trend with time (whatever time actually is, of course) then, within the context of rational materialistic interpretation of reality into the ‘physical world as we all know it’, we can make statements like ‘global sea level is rising 3mm a year’ and that has some meaning. And relative to the models and methodologies used to derive it, it is relatively true, and even has some kind of correlation with observer effects in Reality. Whatever and wherever that may be.
So I cannot stand by and let this post pass. No, just because the context, the way the measurements are done, and the way they are adjusted may shed uncertainty upon the value of sea level rise, it does not invalidate the concept of sea level rise.
That game is the anti scientists game. It belongs in the touchy feely realm of post modern ideological egalitarianism (“all ideas are equal, and are only opinions, until 97% of people believe them, when they become facts”).
In short if you are going to regard the world as a rational materialist does, that that touch feely stuff is in fact Reality and has an independent existence that is quite unconcerned about whether people believe in it or not,…then measuring it cannot be an ideological mistake, and just because its hard to measure, doesn’t mean it doesn’t have size.. We cannot say ‘sea level has no meaning’ when we can go to the beach and watch the tides come in and go out and realise that that is in fact what sea level is, and does. And if year upon year it seems to come in a bit further every year, then we can surely say the sea level is rising… and if other people elsewhere in the world report similar, then we can give meaning to the phrase ‘global sea levels are rising’. And indeed try and put some ‘value’ on that rise, and rate of rise.
Whether our values are accurate, and whether the rises are alarming or not, and whether or not there is a casual linkage to man made emissions, is another matter. But we are not disputing that, here. We are disputing the innate validity of measurement itself…
…And that way lies ruin and the complete disintegration of any semblance of lip service to Reality beyond human conception of it.
You have to decide, punk, whether the world exists independently of our attempts to conceive of it and our experience of it, or whether its all just a ‘social construct’.
And if it does exist, and has – or at least we can say that the best way to conceive of it it – is that it has the qualities of size, shape, quality, persistence in time, causality and the like, then measuring it may be fraught with inaccuracies and uncertainties, but it is not per se an invalid thing to do just because we cant achieve 100% accuracy or certainty…

richardscourtney
Reply to  Leo Smith
October 10, 2015 3:04 am

Leo Smith:
You say

I have to say this is a muddled essay, and I didn’t really like it. For reasons I am struggling to express.,

I have to say yours is a muddled comment, and I didn’t really like it. For reasons that are easy to express; for example, your comment concludes saying

You have to decide, punk, whether the world exists independently of our attempts to conceive of it and our experience of it, or whether its all just a ‘social construct’.
And if it does exist, and has – or at least we can say that the best way to conceive of it it – is that it has the qualities of size, shape, quality, persistence in time, causality and the like, then measuring it may be fraught with inaccuracies and uncertainties, but it is not per se an invalid thing to do just because we cant achieve 100% accuracy or certainty…

You have to understand that:
(a) when there is no agreed definition of a physical parameter
and
(b) there is no possibility of a calibration reference for the parameter
then
(c) there is no possibility of measuring the parameter.
Anything done to quantify the undefined and calibration-free datum provides – at best – a meaningless estimate with accuracy, precision and reliability that cannot be known.
Richard

Mike
Reply to  richardscourtney
October 10, 2015 3:54 am

I agree that the comment was almost a rambling as the article but it did see more coherent. At least I got to the end of Leo’s comment with skipping. At least a little philosophy is in order.
There is a certain reality is tidal gauge measurements since they relate to when things get wet. The main concern with sea level is whether is above where we live. We don’t really give a damn about isostatic glacial rebound and inverse barometers. whichever way they “correct” the data. What we need to know water is.
At least there is some ground truth in a tide gauge.
Satellite altimetry is another game entirely. There are so many models, assumptions and adjustable parameters involved in ‘retrieval’ of the mean water level in a 2m swell by looking at the reflection from the bottom of the waves that you can make the result just about anything you believe to be reasonable according to your preconceived expectations.
There have been such wholesale “corrections” to various satellite data in order to align them and then all the earlier data is hidden away from view so no one sees the real uncertainty of those who declare themselves to certain of their latest results That I have little faith in any of it.
Rather like the shifting history of temperature time series, all these records are being manipulated to give a ‘homogeneous’ story to the public and policy makers.

Dahlquist
Reply to  richardscourtney
October 10, 2015 1:38 pm

Richard
You are an ignorant, pest and an Ahole.

richardscourtney
Reply to  richardscourtney
October 10, 2015 2:36 pm

Dahlquist:
And your comment states what you are. Hopefully I will not have the unpleasant task of removing you from the instep of my shoe.
Richard

richard verney
Reply to  richardscourtney
October 10, 2015 2:37 pm

I consider the issue here to be:
“…we can make statements like ‘global sea level is rising 3mm a year’ and that has some meaning. And RELATIVE TO THE MODELS AND METHODOLOGIES USED TO DERIVE IT, it is relatively true, and even has some kind of correlation with observer effects in Reality. Whatever and wherever that may be.” (my emphasis).
The problem in Climate Science is the Models and Methodologies used. They do not provide us with some identified absolute and unchanging standard reference, against which measurement can be assessed.
Often the measurements (or derivation therefrom) are meaningless, or nearly meaningless, or not useful because they are not being made against a proper defined standard reference, and therefore are not telling us some of real substance.

Reply to  Kip Hansen
October 10, 2015 1:37 pm

Yeah, I think that pretty much sums up what I was trying to say. Sometimes you realise that someone’s worldview is simply in doublethink mode, trying to have cake and eat it.
Usually its AGW protagomists, with their use of science in the same sentence as they deny it.

nobodyknows
October 10, 2015 2:46 am

I find the measurements/estimates of sea level interesting. Not the exact numbers, but the ups and downs. I think it is two benchmarks on global temperature change, and that is ocean heat content and sea level. These two follow each other close. So I think that the sea level estimates is not that wrong. As a tool to understand climate change i would have much more trust in sea level change than what comes out of climate models. So if we use a rise of sea level of 3.2mm pr century for the lasst ten years, that is perhaps the imaginary number we need to reflect on what is happening. What matters is to nderstand climate dynamics, and what measurements or estimates that can help us with that. It is all about energies in and out of the oceans, and in and out to space. I think that sea level proxies are very important in relation to climate history, and also difficult to estimate. Should we give this up?

nobodyknows
Reply to  nobodyknows
October 10, 2015 2:53 am

It should be 3,3mm pr decade.

nobodyknows
Reply to  nobodyknows
October 10, 2015 3:01 am

And it should be 29 cm sea level rise between 1750 and 2014, with a rate of rise that shows that much of temperature rise cannot be man made since preindustrial time. This would be much more uncertain without Amsterdam tide gauge measurements and other historical data. Don`t throw out the baby with the bath-water.

MarkW
Reply to  nobodyknows
October 10, 2015 7:25 am

Let me see if I have this right. You admit that the actual numbers are hard to gather, so you believe that well meaning scientists should instead just estimate what the numbers should be.
And that since these estimates confirm the biases of the people making the estimates we should then use these estimates to confirm the estimates that other scientists in other areas are making and that these re-enforcing estimates can prove that global warming is a problem that we need to do something about?

richardscourtney
October 10, 2015 2:46 am

Frederick Colbourne:
You say

Interesting discussion, but defining “imaginary numbers” this way in a scientific discussion adds nothing whatsoever to understanding.
I am skeptical about global climate alarmism but that does not make me accept the idea that real physical phenomena are imaginary.

I don’t know of anyone who is claiming “real physical phenomena are imaginary”.
The discussion concerns the “numbers” that are claimed to indicate the magnitude(s) of real physical parameters. Those ‘numbers’ are highly uncertain estimates but are falsely asserted to be measurements with known accuracy.
For example, much information (crop changes, glacier retreats, etc.) suggests that global temperature has risen over the last century, but the claims that this has been measured as being a rise of 0.8°C are not true. Calling that value of 0.8°C an “imaginary number” helps understanding that it is NOT a measured value.
Perhaps you would prefer ‘imagined number’ to avoid confusion with the mathematical term ‘imaginary number’?
Richard

Warren Latham
October 10, 2015 3:29 am

Dear Kip Hansen and Anthony,
It’s getting closer to the Parisites’ Sing-along-abama-Festival when all persons attending will use OPM (other people’s money) and direct that money to their own bank accounts AND …we know that the entire charade is based upon carbon-dioxide !
Q. Are We Chasing Imaginary Numbers?
A. No; “We” are not but yes, “they” are.
Your essay Kip Hansen is absolutely spot on !
Many thanks indeed.
Many people have gone to the trouble of debunking common myths and here are just a few of them (and I haven’t even included the splendid words of dear Alan Caruba from 21st. April 2015).
11th. September 2015 – WUWT article. THE PAGES2K GOAT-ROPE
QUOTE
“But that’s just what they claim that they’ve done. They’re claiming that it’s simple, all they have to do take those crazy results from those six oceans, standardize them, take a weighted average based on the area of the ocean in question, and presto, they come up with the global ocean temperature history for the last 2,000 years …I say that’s dumb as a bag of ball bearings.”
END PARA..
(The Pages2K Goat-Rope Willis Eschenbach / September 11, 2015 Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach).
23rd. April 2015 – cFact article. FINANCING CLIMATE CRISIS, INC..
QUOTE
“The Obama Administration is using climate change to “fundamentally transform” America. It plans to make the climate crisis industry so enormous that no one will be able to dismantle it, even as computer models and disaster claims totally lose credibility — and even if Republicans control Congress and the White House after 2016.”
END PARA..
– cFact article by Paul Driessen (senior policy advisor for CFACT).
– See more at: http://www.cfact.org/2015/04/23/financing-climate-crisis-inc/#sthash.zzMPhxII.dpuf
29th. August 2015 – Propaganda Guard article.
“GLOBAL TEMPERATURE IS A MEANINGLESS STATISTIC.
– Propaganda Guard article by Micheal Winston and “blogged” by Robin Rey R. Shaw
http://ift.tt/1O0Mbc0
… the bottom line is …
It’s all a complete and utter NONSENSE and is based upon the MYTH that carbon-dioxide is bad. It’s the biggest con, hoax, money-re-routing scam the world has ever seen, or rather, has NOT been ABLE TO SEE.
I fervently hope that all WUWT readers will be given the opportunity and facility to contribute their money to help pay for the myth-busting film when it comes out.
We should then all be privileged and also have the honor to “put our money where our mouths are”.
Regards,
WL

Warren Latham
Reply to  Warren Latham
October 10, 2015 11:17 am

Dear “Moderator”,
Why did my reply (above) need to go through your approval ?
WL
[Reply: WordPress often (but not always) puts comments into moderation hold if they have more than one link. Other times, WordPress does it for no apparent reason. ~mod.]

Walt D.
October 10, 2015 3:33 am

The actual definition of sea level is not simple.
This video shows some of the problems involved.



So before you try and decide whether sea level has changed by 1 mm, it would be a good idea to define precisely what you are measuring.

John law
October 10, 2015 3:36 am

We used to wonder ,as kids, in the 50’s why when we caught the ferry from Liverpool to New Brighton why the landing stage was about 30 foot higher when we returned; we did not know about AGW then!

October 10, 2015 3:45 am


“It is my point here that what we are doing, where the doing is done, is not measurement, but derivation. Many measurements are taken, in many and diverse locations, at many and diverse times. In some cases, there are nearly continuous time series of measurements for particular locations. From these numerous individual measurements, for example, the tide station reports from the Battery in New York City, an interesting (but not to be detailed here) formula is applied to derive a figure, a single number, that represents the average difference between the sea surface and a geodetic bench mark (set in the bedrock of Manhattan Island years ago) over some period of time.”
All measurements are derivations. No measurement is perfect, i.e. without error. (“All models are wrong. But some are useful.” -George Box)
When you “measure” the length of an object with a meter stick, you are really collecting, and interpolating, data from a “model” consisting of equally spaced (more or less) calibration points on the stick. You derive the measurement by comparing the span of the object over the stick and deciding which calibration points are “closest” to the extent of the object perceived by your eyeball.
So, measuring is “simple” for most of us, but it is a computation (“interpolation”), performed by our brains, subject to errors of perception and interpretation, and totally dependent on the accuracy of the inscribed markings on the meter stick.
Yes, the average value of a collection of measurements could be viewed as “imaginary”, in the sense that it may not match the actual measured value of any item in the collection. For example, you may determine that the “average” family in a population study has 2.5 children. But you will not find a family in your collection with that exact “measurement”. Nonetheless the average-family-size statistic is extremely important and useful for scientific understanding of population growth and distribution.
So the “average value” of a collection parameter is very real, very useful and indispensable in the practice of science and engineering. Because it allows us to estimate the error of measurement, from which we can decide how confident we should be about interpreting the measured parameter. Confidence tends to increase as the estimated mean square error decreases.
So if the satellite “derived” MSL estimates of MSL have sufficiently low MSE, then should accept them as “real” estimates of the actual level of the sea, because the evolution of those estimated values over time and space, within acceptable error, will give us better understanding of the underlying physical processes which affect sea level.
It would be foolish to dismiss them as “imaginary”.

Reply to  Kip Hansen
October 10, 2015 1:46 pm

Of course I agree that we should always be thoughtful and careful in our considerations, but I think you are falling into a philosophical trap when you insist that properties of entities should be directly measured and not derived:

For the result of a measurement to be a real number, the thing being measured must itself be measurable and the numerical result representing that measurement must represent something that exists in some meaningful and useful sense. However, the result of a measurement of a thing that itself is not physically measurable, but which can only be derived mathematically based on a definition that itself is an object of our imaginations (not something actually found in the real world), then that result should itself be considered, in this special sense, imaginary as well, despite its seeming precision.

I have already mentioned that all measurements depend on derivations from a model. But there is another “philosphical” problem here too, in that by avoiding “derived” properties that are not directly observable, you will fall into the same trap as the Logical Positivists of the late 19th century, who refused to accept the existence of any entity that could not be directly sensed and measured. Thus the notable physicist Ernst Mach opposed Boltzmann’s theory of statistical mechanics in thermodynamics, because it depended on the existence of “atoms”, which could not be directly sensed or verified. Mach’s authority above Boltzmann impeded the acceptance of this theory until Mach’s retirement.
So, yes, it seems that the “global MSL” derived from satellites is not a directly observable entity. But as long as it can be depended on to explain or predict ocean phenomenology in a useful way, then it should be admitted into discussions and experimentation in that research community. Further research may falsify its claims. Or newer research may reinforce it with a more detailed explanation.
This happened many times in physics, e.g. when Wolfgang Pauli introduced a purely empirical wave function to predict the behavior of half-spin particles. He couldn’t explain the need for deriving the “complicated” 2×2 matrices in the function, except that it just worked. Later, Dirac’s relativistic wave equation provided the theoretical justification for the use of these complex matrix components:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirac_equation#Comparison_with_the_Pauli_theory
Another example are the “market indices” used to predict or explain stock market prices. One could quibble about the composition or derivation of such indices. But the ultimate validation depends only on its success in following market trends. You would say the DJI is “imaginary” because it contains averages of averages, but it certainly has been successful:
http://i57.tinypic.com/zkjp7n.png

TonyL
October 10, 2015 4:11 am

I will start a new block here:
Especially richardscourtney :
Richard is speaking directly to the issues of climate science, and make some good points about the lack of reference standards. In every field of measurement, we take reference standards very seriously. When it came time to map out the continent, there were no references, no standards. The solution was geodetic survey markers. Thousands upon thousands upon thousands of them. There is no such system for sea level or for global surface temperature. So without a fixed reference, your data sets can drift all over the place.
On the other side, if no physical standard is apparent, an empirical one can be made. You define it, you agree on it, and you keep anyone from messing with it. This is the case with the geodetic survey.
For climate science, we are not even close. The Climate Reference Network in the US is purported to eventually provide such a reference, eventually. Time will tell.
What has been left out, but I think is an integral part of data integrity, is the topic of honest brokers. If we are talking about data quality, and there are those in the field who are not operating in good faith, we are going to have a real hard time.

Mike
October 10, 2015 4:41 am

Notice please the difference between the trend calculated from tide gauges (orange line with grey error range) and the blue satellite measurements. Tide Gauge data (which measures Relative Sea Level at each tide gauge) accelerates while satellite data, which measures absolute sea level, keeps to its century long trend.

That is Church and White’s alarmist acceleration from tide gauges , Jevrejeva 2014 reports NO acceleration during 20th c.

Billy Liar
Reply to  Mike
October 10, 2015 2:21 pm

Was that an effort designed to raise the credibility of satellite sea level measurements (which indeed are models all the way down)?

wayne Job
October 10, 2015 4:43 am

Some time in the 18 hundreds my mind does not remember exactly, the British Admiralty did a world wide programme that was as big as the programme to land man on the moon.
A scientific endeavour to measure the world in all aspects, temperature, pressure, accurate mapping and the marking of low tide dry rocks.
For some odd reason these rocks with their low tide marks on the rocks with the date Lat and Long marked are still there high and dry at low tide. Many are up the East coast of OZ. There are hundreds of these rocks around the world, the Admiralty records will pinpoint every one. Just saying.

Mike
Reply to  wayne Job
October 10, 2015 5:28 am

Wayne, do you have proper ref. for any of that? I think there’s ONE such rock.

Mike
Reply to  Mike
October 10, 2015 5:30 am
Mike
October 10, 2015 4:52 am

comment image
from the Wikipedia page linked in the article.
No acceleration from tide gauges in 20th c.
The other graph shown in the article is Church and White , N.Z. alarmists.
Jevrejeva 2014 similarly shows no accel since the trough in around 1880.

Mike
October 10, 2015 5:02 am

“There are hundreds of these rocks around the world, the Admiralty records will pinpoint every one. Just saying.”
I’m aware of one such rock. Interesting indeed.
Can you provide a reference for any of the “hundreds” you claim exist, or is that just figment of bar-room wisdom ?

Mike
October 10, 2015 5:05 am

From one of the WP links provided by Kip:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Recent_Sea_Level_Rise.png
No acceleration in 20th c.

stevek
October 10, 2015 5:06 am

Imaginary numbers are all fun and games until someone loses an i.

Reply to  stevek
October 10, 2015 10:48 am

Clever! ヅ 

October 10, 2015 5:08 am

Satellites don’t measure the level of the sea. Satellites measure the distance from the satellite to the surface of the ocean or land. As time passes the satellite’s velocity gradually decreases as does the diameter of the orbit.
So what is actually changing? Is the sea level rising or is the orbit shrinking?
I suppose the satellite calibrates itself by checking its distance to some assumed steady surface, say Death Valley.
Low earth orbit is no less than 160 km, i.e. 160,000,000 mm. Measuring that distance to +/- 0.x mm seems a bit too good to be true.

Mike
Reply to  Nicholas Schroeder
October 10, 2015 5:16 am

The biggest problem is the radar reflection they get back is from the bottom of the wave swell. Even if you can measure that reasonably well, you need to know the depth of the swell to get the mean. They do with by statistical analysis of how noisy the signal is. Yet another of the these tunable ‘parameters’ .
You tweak the parameter until the answer ‘looks’ right.
No one is measuring the swell , it’s all guessing games and the usually incredible claims of accuracy.

Mike
Reply to  Mike
October 10, 2015 5:24 am

Of course if the roughness depends upon some weather factor like wind speed or direction or turbulence you model may drift a bit if climatic conditions change over a few years and you may misinterpret the depth of the swell by couple of feet. But since you’re only claiming 0.1mm accuracy on each retrieval , that’s fine 😉

Billy Liar
Reply to  Nicholas Schroeder
October 10, 2015 2:29 pm

See this paper for an example of ‘correcting’ satellite altimetry:
http://maia.usno.navy.mil/conv2010/chapter6/add_info/TM-95-06.pdf
You’ll see why the Topex/Poseidon altimetry was only accurate to 4cm RMS. It’s hard to find a few millimetres change/year with the peak to peak measurements being +/- 80mm

Mike
October 10, 2015 5:11 am

Many are up the East coast of OZ. There are hundreds of these rocks around the world, the Admiralty records will pinpoint every one. Just saying.

Bar-room ‘science’ or fact?
I’m aware of one such rock. Interesting indeed. An ancient penal colony in Tassie, IIRC. Can you “pinpoint” any of the alleged admiralty records to back up your claim of hundreds? Just asking …

TonyL
Reply to  Mike
October 10, 2015 5:47 am

Was on the island of St. Lucia a ways back. One of the museums has a display dedicated to the Admiralty mapping project. As the room was located, one could look out to the harbor and compare to an original Admiralty chart posted beside the window. It was interesting to see how much of the island had eroded in 120 years. (Like all islands in the West Indies chain, it is mostly volcanic ash and till, and very susceptible to erosion). IIRC, the mapping accuracy was +/- 6 feet over the whole island, and +/- 0.5 ft. in the harbors and points important to navigation. Most, if not all of the islands got this treatment. (I do not know about the French possessions, there may have been “tensions”.) The British Admiralty Mapping Expedition (ca. 1860 – 1880) was truly epic in scope and worldwide in scale. The resulting maps are works of art and were the most accurate ever produced at that time. Many are still in use today, and many more form the basis of modern navigation charts. On St. Lucia, the marker rocks are well known. In England, the records of the Admiralty Expedition are carefully preserved as the national treasure that they are.

October 10, 2015 5:12 am

Are we not measuring coastal lands sinking, rather than ocean levels rising? In Northern Sweden land is still rising out of the sea at up to 9mm/year. The Mid Atlantic ridge is rising. All the water displaced has to go somewhere.

Mike
Reply to  lenbilen
October 10, 2015 5:20 am

Don’t worry, it’s all accounted for . You just need to know the viscosity of rock a few moraines from Canada and you can model how much deeper the oceans are getting.
You make guess at the viscosity of rock and tweak it until you get the desired result.

Bill Illis
Reply to  lenbilen
October 10, 2015 6:25 am

Verticle land movement is now being measured by GPS stations. There are over 300 of these stations now around the world with the majority of the these stations also being co-located with a Tide Gauge station.
GPS stations provide noisy data but after about 3 years of operation, a clear trend of the land motion, up or down and then north south east west can be determined. One can probably assume this vertical land motion has been in place for centuries if not thousands of years.
GPS more-or-less confirms that average land location is moving up by 0.3 mms/year (this is still the rebound recovery from the last ice age) but there is wide variation in the stations ranging from land sinking at -8.0 mm/year to the land rising at 12.5 mm/year (half an inch per year).
One can also check to see what the co-located Tide Gauge station is also measuring after it has been corrected for the local vertical land movement measured by the GPS station.
SONEL is the main organization which is maintaining a database of these measurements. The latest data available from 1984 to 2013 (they only provide 30 year tide periods), is that after correction, Tide Guages are measuring 2.34 mms/year of sea level rise.
Download page here. You need to select a time period, file format and then coverage area to download.
http://www.sonel.org/-Sea-level-trends-.html?lang=en

Reply to  Bill Illis
October 10, 2015 6:18 pm

I’ve also seen that it is very useful to have a gravimeter as well as a GPS receiver. The GPS gives the elevation to a geoid (an “imaginary” surface derived from physical measurements) and the gravimeter makes a correction to what GPS thinks is the geoid.

MarkW
Reply to  lenbilen
October 10, 2015 7:31 am

The mid-atlantic ridge is rising, but other parts of the ocean floor are sinking or subsiding.

VikingExplorer
Reply to  lenbilen
October 10, 2015 7:45 am

Very difficult to account for the complex dynamics. Land rising would result in sea level drop. Lay in bath tub and bring your knees up, water level drops. Even if GPS stations are measuring vertical movement, it would be extremely difficult to model the volume above sea level. The crust also has a lot of water in it (water table). Sinking crust could result in cavities being below sea level which then slowly fill in (lowering sea level). Rising crust could result in cavities being above sea level (raising sea level). This is in addition to all the other dynamics (temperature, volcanism, multiple sources of tides, rotation, solar, weather etc.).
Lake Erie, perhaps because of it’s orientation and shape has a sloshing effect, where a low frequency wave moves from Detroit to Buffalo and back continuously.
Unless these other dynamics are accounted with accuracy, I think the abstract concept “mean sea level” is meaningless from an AGW point of view.

Mike
October 10, 2015 5:36 am

From WP:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Recent_Sea_Level_Rise.png
No acceleration there. Just steady even rise.

October 10, 2015 5:41 am

I find this is a remarkably disingenuous essay.
Firstly, it begs the entire question at the outset by labelling some numbers as imaginary, even bolding each instance of the use in a very McLuhanesque way. The implication is that such values do not reflect anything real and have no value and that those who engage with them are fools.
Secondly, it goes on to indulge the overarching ignorance of statistical and scientific methods found in the commenters here (and, I’ll point out to be fair, pretty much everywhere on the internet but particularly acutely on sites related to climate) to try to drum up some pitchforks and torches to attack the ivory tower just outside of town.
Those ‘imaginary’ numbers in this essay are what a statistician would call the ‘true value’ of a set of observations. The fundamental concept behind that is that there are a lot of natural phenomena we can never measure accurately, but there is some semi-Platonic ‘true’ value of that measurement we can say with a defined degree of confidence lies within a certain range. That does not make them fake, or useless, or worthy of being loaded with emotion-laden words like ‘imaginary.’ That does make it mandatory that the value not be expressed singularly (ie. it must have a value and a confidence interval to be valid).
It has always irked me that many post-hoc sciences (climate science, economics, nutrition science, and so on) express their values as accurate, precise, single-valued numbers as if that held any meaning other than rhetorical. I agree with the intent of this essay that without the proper consideration of the accuracy of such numbers, they’re useless as scientific data. I’m just disappointed by the prevalent use of rhetoric rather than logic to sway the reader, and the thesis itself that all observed data are imaginary, therefore fake, therefore useless.

Tom
Reply to  bregmata
October 10, 2015 6:15 am

bregmata: Agree completely.

Janice the Elder
Reply to  bregmata
October 10, 2015 7:02 am

I think that the term imaginary does not equate to fake or useless, except in the context of trying to use these numbers to describe some very precise mechanism. If the numbers are being used to describe sea level rise, with an extremely small margin or error, then they are imaginary. If the same numbers are being used to approximately describe sea level rise, with a corresponding large margin of error, then they are real.
It is similar to temperature measurements, that were carefully recorded by hand, and sometimes kept track of at a local airfield. If those measurements are used for the original purpose, which was for local farmers and ranchers to use in comparing a current year to the last few years, then those are real measurements. If those same measurements are used, with some assigned impossibly small error bar, to make a political point about some sort of global temperature, then they are imaginary.

Reply to  bregmata
October 10, 2015 7:07 am

bregmata
Thanks for bringing some reason to this debate…
What we miss in many “single value” numbers is the error range around these numbers.
In the case of tide gauges it is extremely huge and you need decades to statistically distinguish any “signal” from the noise caused by waves and tides, but that doesn’t mean that the figures are meaningless. The satellite(s) may be better, but I like to see the error bars in all cases…
The fact that the satellites don’t show any acceleration in the averaged sea level trend, despite climate model expectations, in my opinion is already a good sign that the satellite people have no intent to “adjust” their data in the right direction…

Reply to  bregmata
October 10, 2015 7:16 am

@bregmata
“Those ‘imaginary’ numbers in this essay are what a statistician would call the ‘true value’ of a set of observations. “
No, not “true value”. The so-called “imaginary” numbers Hansen is referring to are the “derivations” of satellite and other sensor observations, attempgin to produce a single estimate of a collection of wildly varying values.
“True value”, as defined by statisticians, is the hypothetical, error-free (i.e. “imaginary”) value measured by an “oracle”, who can measure “actual” values perfectly, with absolutely no error.
But the values actually returned by sensors are not error-free, so cannot be called “true values”. Rather, they can be called “estimates” or “expected values” (sum of probability-weighted observations).
If derived correctly, the expected value provides the best estimate of the true error, in the least square error sense, and tends to reduce uncorrelated measurement errors. In other words, averaged values, far from being useless, tend to provide more accurate estimates of the “true value” than any single measurement would, provided that the expected value of the error (“noise”) approaches zero.

VikingExplorer
Reply to  bregmata
October 10, 2015 7:18 am

>> I’m just disappointed by the prevalent use of rhetoric rather than logic to sway the reader, and the thesis itself that all observed data are imaginary, therefore fake, therefore useless.
If true, then this is an example of an anti-science mentality. I hope that wasn’t the intent.

Reply to  bregmata
October 10, 2015 9:56 am

Bregmata: The way I read this essay was not that, for example the observed heights of people are imaginary observations but rather an “average height” person is an imaginary person. No detective would happen upon a murder scene and suggest that the 6 foot 8 suspect couldn’t reach the gun on the high shelf because the average American is only 5 foot 11. In this example the “average height” is not relevant to the issue perhaps in the same way that an irregular surface ocean with dynamic properties also has an average that is meaningless to anyone in any particular spot. The particular spatially located observations are valuable because they in fact do represent what you call “some semi-Platonic ‘true’ value of that measurement.” I don’t think Kip is calling that imaginary. Instead he is questioning whether combining multiple locations together has any real meaning. If it does not have any real meaning, then the use of the word imaginary is more than appropriate.
I think that is the question that Kip is raising. Unless I am reading his intent wrong.

blcjr
Editor
October 10, 2015 5:51 am

Isn’t the heart of the matter this?
If you are consistent in measuring “Whatever It Is That You Are Measuring” then over time you can discern whether or not “Whatever It Is That You Are Measuring” has changed. But it still does not follow that “Whatever It Is That You Are Measuring” is what you think it is.

Reply to  blcjr
October 10, 2015 7:33 am

“… over time you can discern whether or not “Whatever It Is That You Are Measuring” has changed.”
Good point. And that explains why critical weather/climate parameters such as “mean sea level” (and “mean temperature”) are almost always expressed in the literature as “anomalies”, i.e. the change from some “baseline” value.
So no one cares that the actual sea-level, right now, at Lat-Lon (y,x) is exactly 1,234,567.8 mm. But we are all very interested in how much it has changed over time.

richard verney
Reply to  Johanus
October 10, 2015 3:25 pm

Unfortunately, the baseline is not an absolute reference since it does not remain constant.
So although the baseline may be said to be the 30 year average, what goes into that baseline changes not simply with respect to time but also with respect to composition. It therefore does not provide a reference against which things can be measured in a meaningful and significant manner.

Reply to  Johanus
October 10, 2015 4:30 pm

verney
“So although the baseline may be said to be the 30 year average, what goes into that baseline changes not simply with respect to time but also with respect to composition.
My understanding of weather/climate “baselines” is that they include the long-term, slowly changing components of the “signal” (temperature, sea-level etc), which are supposed to be viewed as the “expected value” of the signal at any point in time, up to and including “seasonal” variations. Then the remaining short-term components are supposed be interpreted as “anomalies” from the baseline of expected values.
In practice it looks like a frequency decomposition, where a low-pass filter, in effect, generates the baseline, and a high-pass filter, in effect, generates the anomalies.
So using that decomposition scheme, it would be impossible to detect a “low-frequency” anomaly, i.e. spanning several years, if such an anomaly truly exists. Nor would high-frequency signal “spikes” or “notches” be included as part of the baseline, even if they occurred on a regular and predictable basis.
Is that what you meant by “with respect to composition”?

HAS
Reply to  Johanus
October 10, 2015 4:56 pm

johanus unfortunately in a non-linear world one has to care about discontinuities. So anomalies break down. I’m always amused that GCMs model (hindcast) a globe at significantly different absolute temperatures (and this is concealed by using anomalies). One has to ask what happens to ice melt and vapour forming processes on these differing planets.

Reply to  Johanus
October 10, 2015 5:08 pm


> … concealed by using anomalies
Yes, it has also occurred to me that “cooling trend” anomalies could be hidden merely by moving the downtrend to the baseline, thus making the “anomalies” look like a flat or even rising series of values.
So looking at anomalies alone, without reference to an annotated baseline for comparison, could be very misleading.

HAS
Reply to  Johanus
October 10, 2015 11:05 pm

johanus, it’s more fundamental than that. We have GCMs that model the base period temp 1961–1990 across a range from 12.6C to 15.4C absolute (HadCRUT4 14C). See Fig 9.8 a AR5 WG1.
The physical processes on those model worlds are said to accurately reflect the physical processes on our world. But how can that be?

Reply to  Johanus
October 11, 2015 4:59 am

The chart in Fig 9.8 shows an absolute mean surface air temperature of about 14C, which is consistent with the baseline for 1961-1990 in the zone between 60°S and 60°N, so not really a “global” mean:
http://i61.tinypic.com/29vce0x.jpg
Jones, P.D., M. New, D.E. Parker, S. Martin, and I.G. Rigor. 1999. “Surface air temperature and its changes over the past 150 years.”, Reviews of Geophysics 37:173-199.
Note NH (mean 14.6C) is warmer than SH (mean 13.6C), so biases global mean (14.0C) towards a Jul-Aug maximum.

October 10, 2015 5:51 am

Mr Hansen
Thanks for the interesting and easily to follow essay.
Global sea level as is the case with global temperatures is an imaginary and abstract concept.
Looking at N.Y. Battery tides, is ok for N.Y city but hardly relevant to (take special case) Stockholm.
However, there is one more serious problem regarding anything to do with tides, and that is interference between the two clocks running at different frequencies.
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/images/gifs/moire.gif
resulting in the well known 60ish year and millennial cycles. Further more, it is hard to determine if this is what the nature is doing by itself or it is simply product of numerology.

richard verney
Reply to  vukcevic
October 10, 2015 3:19 pm

Great graphic! Well certainly eye catching!

Reply to  richard verney
October 11, 2015 3:01 pm

Eye catching, may be, but what is reality of two magnetic clocks running at different pace
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/AMOqi.gif

graphicconception
October 10, 2015 6:16 am

Presumably, if the sea level is rising we should be able to detect a commensurate increase in the length of day. Is that happening? And can we separate the sea level component from all the other causes of changes in the earth’s rotation speed?

noaaprogrammer
Reply to  graphicconception
October 10, 2015 9:41 am

Since land-based ice fields are at higher elevations than sea-level, it does seem like the earth’s rotation should increase – but here again, even if this happened all at once, what tiny fraction of a second are we looking at? Can anyone contribute a rough calculation?

chris y
Reply to  graphicconception
October 10, 2015 2:35 pm

Leap seconds are added to compensate for a slowing of Earth’s rotation:
1972 – 1980: 9 seconds added
1981 – 1990: 7 seconds added
1991 – 2000: 6 seconds added
2001 – 2010: 2 seconds added
2011 – 2015: 2 seconds added
The rate of change of Earth’s rotation slowdown has been slowing over the last four decades.
Does it indicate that sea level rise has slowed?
Does it indicate that land-based glacier melting has increased (moving high-altitude ice to sea level)?
Does it indicate that land-based glacier melting has decreased (moving less water from high latitudes to low latitudes)?
Hmmm…

Tom in Florida
October 10, 2015 6:27 am

Chasing meaningless, imaginary numbers is how you get grant money. As long as you convince the grantor that these numbers are real and have meaning with an emphasis on disaster.

MarkW
October 10, 2015 6:30 am

When it comes to making measurements, claiming and doing are two entirely different things.
You can claim any level of accuracy that you want when publishing the results of your measurements.
The tough part is actually proving that your measurements are that accurate and that your method of compensating for the millions of measurements that you didn’t make are that accurate.

Reply to  MarkW
October 10, 2015 1:06 pm

No problem…with the right peers doing the reviewing.
Don’t ask…don’t tell.

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