The Greatest Climate Myths of All – Part 2.

Guest essay by Jim Steele,

Director emeritus Sierra Nevada Field Campus, San Francisco State University and author of Landscapes & Cycles: An Environmentalist’s Journey to Climate Skepticism

In part one, I wrote “In the simplest of terms, every study that has attributed the recent warming of the 1980s and 90s to rising CO2 has been based on the difference between their models’ reconstruction of “natural climate change” with their models’ output of “natural climate change plus CO2.” However the persistent failure of their models to reproduce how “natural climate changed before,” means any attribution of warming due to CO2 is at best unreliable and at worse a graphic fairy tale.”

Like failed modeling results illustrated in Part 1, scientists at the University of East Anglia’s Climatic Research Unit published Attribution Of Polar Warming To Human Influence1. Again their models failed to account for the heat during Arctic’s earlier natural warming (black line), a warming climate scientists called “the most spectacular event of the century”. Their “natural models” grossly underestimated the 40s peak warming by ~0.8° C (blue line) and when CO2 and sulfates were added the warming event was cooled further (red line). So how much do we trust models’ attribution when they get climate change half wrong?

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Over millennial time spans, researchers reported similar failures reconstructing the Medieval Warm Period writing, “Inter-model differences and model/reconstruction comparisons suggest that simulations of the Medieval Climate Anomaly either fail to reproduce the mechanisms of climate response to changes in external forcing, or that anomalies during this period are largely influenced by internal variability.“2 Modeling also fails at smaller regional levels with superior data coverage, such as California. As Dr. Phillip Duffy, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, wrote “Neither the nature of climate trends in California nor their causes are well understood.”3

Sidestepping such failures, alarmists note models can generate random unforced warming events about every 150 years and that last a decade or so. And so they suggest early Arctic warming was a random event caused by “internal variability” that can’t be modeled. But there was less than a 13% chance that random warming happened in the 30s, and that random warming could have equally contributed to the 80s and 90s, meaning CO2 contributed little. And that arguments does not alter the fact that CO2-driven climate models fail to reproduce natural climate change of the past.

Alarmist believe CO2 is the “control knob” of climate change and Dr. James Hansen, who studied climate on lifeless planets devoid of oceans, proselytizes that belief. On other planets the “radiative balance” is the critical climate variable. But that narrow focus has biased Hansen and his disciples who have underestimated the power of ocean oscillations. Fortunately here on earth, there is a growing awareness that natural ocean oscillations persist for many decades and control how heat is stored, redistributed and ventilated. Those oscillations increasingly appear to be the most powerful “climate control knobs” and many advocates of CO2 warming now blame the cool phases of these ocean oscillations for “masking” or “hiding” hypothesized heat. But natural ocean oscillations have also raised temperatures, and regards to understanding both 20th century warming events in the Arctic, ocean oscillations offer the superior explanation.

From latitudes 40° North or South to the poles, the earth increasingly ventilates more heat than it absorbs. Climate change at those higher latitudes is dominated by variations in the transport of surplus tropical heat. Scientists estimate “Without these heat transports the atmosphere would have an equator-pole surface air temperature difference of 100° C, which is more than twice the present value of 40°C.4 Equally important, surplus equatorial heat is generated by the sun, with a very small and dubious contribution from CO2. As reported by the IPCC in the Physical Science Basis, “In the humid equatorial regions, where there is so much water vapour in the air that the greenhouse effect is very large, adding a small additional amount of CO2 or water vapour has only a small direct impact on downward infrared radiation. However, in the cold, dry polar regions, the effect of a small increase in CO2 or water vapour is much greater.”

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However both 20th century Arctic warming events are associated with greater volumes of warm water intruding into the Arctic driven by the warm phases of the Pacific Decadal Oscillation, the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation and the Arctic/North Atlantic Oscillation. And as would be expected, the poleward range of southerly marine organisms has ebbed and flowed accordingly.

In a 2013 peer-reviewed paper,5 scientists examined the migration of marine organisms into the Arctic reporting, “The fauna of the southern North Sea exhibits clear changes. Particularly conspicuous is the increase of Mediterranean fish species and the occurrence of sardine eggs and larvae. There is no doubt, that these observations are associated with the climate change which has been shown to occur since several decades, and which, over the last years, has had important consequences for fisheries: decrease of catches, northwards shift of fishing grounds, adaptation to fisheries for different species. …particularly interesting questions are: will climate change continue and, also, shifts and changes of fish stocks, how long will this last, and which are the consequences, if this trend reverses?”

Sounds familiar, but the above quote was written by Aurich in 1953. Like the earlier warming event and migrations, the most recent northward advance of small fish such as sardines, anchovies and herring correlate very well with the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation and the current distribution of fish from southerly waters is “almost identical to that described by Aurich for 1951.”5 After the earlier warm event those fish retreated and were absent from the North Sea surveys during the 1970s and 90s. So the next few decades should provide the evidence needed to settle much of the climate debate. If natural cycles are indeed the climate control knob, the next 2 decades should witness a cool phase of the AMO and the retreat of southerly marine organisms. And the current scientific consensus that the upper 300 meters of the oceans have been cooling since 2003 bodes well for natural cycles prediction.13

To support dubious climate model attributions, the scientific literature has been increasingly spammed with papers creating the second greatest climate myth: migrating organisms are evidence of CO2 driven warming. However their arguments fail to account for the myriad of confounding factors affecting the biosphere. The same biological evidence used to instill CO2 fear, is also consistent with interpretations attributing landscape changes and/or natural climate cycles that modulate heat transport to the poles. If marine organisms migrated similarly pre-1950s when CO2 was an insignificant player, then the most parsimonious explanation is identical migrations today are driven by the same natural forces.

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Good science demands we examine how climate changed naturally in the past, not to uncritically dismiss the possibility of CO2–caused warming, but to understand to what degree present climate change is driven by historical cycles. Only by thoroughly examining climate history can we estimate natural contributions and evaluate earth’s sensitivity to rising CO2. This is most critical because climate history is now repeating itself.

However those eager to blame rising CO2 have downplayed natural oscillations. Alarmists recently published Global Imprint Of Climate Change On Marine Life,” which press releases hyped in the media. Alarmist websites like ClimateProgress ranted, “The research is more confirmation that “global change is real and has been real for a long time. It’s not something in the distant future. It is well underway.”

The truth is natural cycles are well underway, as they always have been. And that dynamic is being hijacked.

The “Global Imprint” analyses suffered from the same shortcomings uncovered in inflated claims that 97% of the scientists agree about climate change. The authors similarly surveyed on-line abstracts from which they extracted only papers suggesting ecological changes were driven by climate change. Their filter effectively removed all analyses examining other confounding factors. Furthermore most of the papers in their compilation only studied responses during the warm phases of natural ocean cycles beginning in the 70s, after most marine organisms had retreated south. Thus their meta-analyses totally obscured the cyclic warming and cooling that accompanied those migrations during the 20th century. From their carefully filtered database, they claimed, “81–83% of all observations for distribution, phenology, community composition, abundance, demography and calcification across taxa and ocean basins were consistent with the expected impacts of climate change.”8

But like the “97% consensus” methodology, their 83% disguised the fact that the vast majority of species were non-responders. Of the 857 species examined, only 279 (or 33%) changed distribution. Sixty-seven percent had no response and therefore “were not included because failure to detect a change in distribution may have several causes, including barriers to dispersal, poor sampling resolution or the dominance of alternative drivers of change.” Changes in distribution also has several caused but again their data selection guaranteed a statistical bias. If all the 857 species were accounted for, a mere 27% behaved in a manner “consistent” with CO2 theory. More importantly most of those species were also behaving in a manner consistent with natural cycles.

It was not surprising to see the IPCC’s Camille Parmesan co-authored this paper. As I have documented before Parmesan has “inaccurately” blamed CO2 warming for extinctions due to lost habitat from urban sprawl, hijacked conservation success to argue poleward movement of butterflies was caused by climate change, and blamed CO2 and extreme weather for a population extinction caused by logging while neighboring natural populations thrived. Now she again hijacks marine migrations caused by natural climate oscillations as “proof” of global warming. And both the “Global Imprint” lead author and Parmesan co-authored a paper contradicting scientific consensus, arguing “Species’ extinctions have already been linked to recent climate change; the golden toad is iconic.15

In contrast to the fearful “science via press release,” the peer-reviewed literature is filled with evidence that supports a more parsimonious natural cycles explanation. In 1997 fishery biologists (not climate scientists) discovered the climate changing Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO) after realizing that every 20 to 30 years salmon abundance shifted between Alaska and Oregon. When the PDO entered it positive phase around 1976, biologists observed northward migrations of plankton, fish and bottom dwelling organisms. Likewise temperatures increased. Climate scientists also reported “when the PDO value changed from dominantly negative to dominantly positive values, a sudden temperature increase across Alaska was observed.”6 After the 1997 El Nino, the PDO began to trend back to its negative cool phase. Sea surface temperature anomalies reverted “to that seen throughout the North Pacific before 1976.”14 Bering Sea ice began to increase reaching record extent in 2012 and Alaska became one of the most rapidly cooling locations on earth as the average for Alaskan weather stations experienced a extraordinary temperature drop of 1.3° C for the decade.6

As eastern Pacific temperature trends from Alaska to the Southern California Bight reversed, species of fish that had once moved northward are now retreating southward. Researchers in the Southern California Bight reported that above all other environmental factors, the changes in fish abundance has correlated best with the PDO regime shifts.7 Such evidence prompted Monterrey Bay Aquariums chief scientist to warn that “These large-scale, naturally occurring variations must be taken into account when considering human-induced climate change and the management of ocean living resources.”8 After all it was the shifting PDO that disrupted Monterrey’s fishing industry as described by John Steinbeck in Cannery Row.

In the Atlantic, poleward intrusions of warm water driven by natural cycles have similarly altered sea ice and the distribution of marine organisms. Satellite pictures (below) clearly show that the recent loss of winter Arctic ice has occurred along the pathway by which warmer waters enter the Barents Sea, deep inside the Arctic Circle, while simultaneously air temperatures far to the south remain cold enough to maintain a frozen Hudson Bay. Before those warm water intrusions facilitated the loss of sea ice, air temperatures in the 80s and 90s reported a slight cooling trend contradicting CO2 theory.12

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Much of the warming in the Arctic in the 20s and 40s, as well as in recent decades was likely due to increased ventilation of ocean heat after sea ice was reduced by intruding warm water and the altered atmospheric circulation. A comparison of Danish Sea ice records from August 1937 with satellite pictures from August 2013, illustrate very similar losses of Arctic ice. As would be expected, a slightly greater proportion of thicker sea ice formed during the Little Ice Age would likely remain during the first warming event compared to recent decades. The slightly warmer Arctic temperatures of the recent decade can be attributed to a greater loss of thicker multiyear ice that is ventilating more ocean heat. But past performance never guarantees the future. Scientific opinions and predictions must be validated by experimentation or future observations. If indeed natural cycles are the real climate control knobs, the next 15 to 20 years will settled the debate. While alarmists predict total loss of ice by 2030 (and earlier predictions have already failed), believers in the power of natural cycles expect Arctic sea ice to rebound by 2030. Until then the science is far from settled. And claims that the science is settled just one more of the great climate myths. (Part 3 will look at the chimeras created by averaging and meta-analyses)

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Literature Cited

Gillett et al (2008), Attribution Of Polar Warming To Human Influence. Nature Geoscience Vol 1

www.nature.com/naturegeoscience

González-Rouco et al (2011), Medieval Climate Anomaly To Little Ice Age Transition As Simulated

By Current Climate Models. PAGES news, Vol 19.

Duffy, P.B., et al., (2006), Interpreting Recent Temperature Trends in California. Eos, Vol. 88.

Liu, Z., and M. Alexander (2007), Atmospheric Bridge, Oceanic Tunnel, And Global Climatic

Teleconnections, Rev. Geophys., Vol. 45, RG2005, doi:10.1029/2005RG000172.

Alheit et al (2013), Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation (AMO) Modulates Dynamics Of Small Pelagic

Fishes And Ecosystem Regime Shifts In The Eastern North And Central Atlantic. Journal of Marine Systems, vol. 133.

Wendler,G., et al. (2012) The First Decade of the New Century: A Cooling Trend for Most of Alaska. The Open Atmospheric Science Journal, 2012, 6, 111-116

Jarvis, E. , et al., (2004), Comparison of Recreational Fish Catch Trends to Environment‑species Relationships and Fishery‑independent Data in the Southern California Bight, 1980-2000. Recreational Fish Catch Trends, CalCOFI Rep., Vol. 45.

Poloczanska et al (2013), Global Imprint Of Climate Change On Marine LIfe. Nature Climate Change Vol. 3.

Chavez et al.(2003) From Anchovies to Sardines and Back: Multidecadal Change in the Pacific Ocean. Science, vol. 299.

Bengtsson, L., et al., (2004) The Early Twentieth-Century Warming in the Arctic—A Possible Mechanism. Journal of Climate, vol. 445-458.

Rigor, I.G., J.M. Wallace, and R.L. Colony (2002), Response of Sea Ice to the Arctic Oscillation, J. Climate, v. 15, no. 18, pp. 2648 – 2668.

Kahl, J., et al., (1993) Absence of evidence for greenhouse warming over the Arctic Ocean in the past 40 years. Nature, vol. 361, p. 335‑337, doi:10.1038/361335a0

Xue,Y., et al., (2012) A Comparative Analysis of Upper-Ocean Heat Content Variability from an Ensemble of Operational Ocean Reanalyses. Journal of Climate, vol 25, 6905-6929.

Peterson, W., and Schwing, F., (2003) A new climate regime in northeast pacific ecosystems. Geophysical Research Letters, vol. 30, doi:10.1029/2003GL017528.

Parmesan, C., et al. (2011) Overstretching attribution. Nature Climate Change, vol. 1, April 2011

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Samuel C Cogar
June 28, 2014 8:13 am

the theoretical physicist Ronald Christensen (and colleagues of his that include me) have built a number of statistically validated optimal decoders of messages from the future for application in controlling systems.
——————-
I wasa wundering, ….. what frequency should I “tune” my tin-foil hat to …… so that I can hear those “messages from the future”?

Reply to  Samuel C Cogar
June 28, 2014 9:48 am

Samuel CF Cogar:
A tin hat doesn’t do it. To receive a message from the future, one needs a pattern recognizer.
In our daily lives we use pattern recognizers often for the purpose of receiving messages from the future. Example: we look up in the sky, observe that it is cloudy and predict the probability of rain in the next 24 hours. In a sequence of 24 hour long independent events, one receives a message such as: rain in the next 24, no rain in the next 24 hours, no rain in the next 24 hours, …. Note that each element of this message (rain in the next 24 hours or no rain in the next 24 hours) lies in the future.
In the use of a pattern recognizer in telecommunications engineering, the use of an error correcting code makes it possible to send more information than is received with the result that the transmitted message may be received without error. In the use of a pattern recognizer in control systems engineering, there is not an error correcting code and thus the message is received with errors. By building an information theoretically optimal pattern recognizer, one can minimize but not eliminate the propensity for making these errors.

June 28, 2014 8:49 am

Steele
Thank you kindly for your reply Jim, and as you are the first person that I have been able to have an informed and rational discussion about the temperature differential between the Frigid and Temperate zones, I highly appreciate the exchange. I am though completely unfamiliar with the nature of the gyres and their effects on ocean transport, so I will study the matter so I can appreciate your ideas better.
Where you said: “The stronger winds of the positive NAO cool the transported tropical waters and deliver warmer winters to much of Europe.”
I would say that SST’s and AMO phase will effect the final winter temperature, but that a warm winter can occur in either AMO phase:
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/actualmonthly/16/Tmean/UK.gif
and is dependent ultimately upon the NAO being negative in that specific season:
http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/precip/CWlink/pna/nao.timeseries.gif
The vital point though is that increased forcing, whether solar or GHG, results in increasingly positive NAO conditions, and reduced warm ocean transport into the Arctic. Meaning that it takes a decline in a forcing for an increase in negative NAO (and a warming of the Arctic) to occur, and there is only one forcing that can decline:
http://snag.gy/YztLh.jpg

June 28, 2014 8:57 am

“and is dependent ultimately upon the NAO being *positive* in that specific season:”

June 28, 2014 9:01 am

This chart from Bob Tisdale on Northern North Atlantic Ocean Heat Content Anomalies is very interesting:
http://bobtisdale.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/4-northern-no-atl.png

June 28, 2014 10:44 am

Ulric, “I am though completely unfamiliar with the nature of the gyres and their effects on ocean transport, so I will study the matter so I can appreciate your ideas better”
Off the top of my head I would recommend a few papers on the gyre to start. Send me your email to landscapesandcycles [ at ] earthlink.net and I can send you pdf’s . There are a few others but they slip my mind right now.
Lozier, M.S., Stewart, N.M., 2008. On the temporally varying northward penetration
of Mediterranean Overflow Water and eastward penetration of Labrador Water.
Journal of Physical Oceanography 38, 2097–2103
Hatun (2005) Influence of the Atlantic Subpolar Gyre on the
Thermohaline Circulation. SCIENCE VOL 309 16 SEPTEMBER
REVERDIN (2009) North Atlantic Subpolar Gyre Surface Variability (1895–2009), JOURNAL OF CLIMATE VOLUME 23
G.
Hatun (2009) Large bio-geographical shifts in the north-eastern Atlantic Ocean:
From the subpolar gyre, via plankton, to blue whiting and pilot whales
Progress in Oceanography 80 (2009) 149–162

June 28, 2014 10:59 am

Terry Oldberg:
At June 28, 2014 at 9:48 am you say

A tin hat doesn’t do it. To receive a message from the future, one needs a pattern recognizer.

I am astonished that your tin-foil hat doesn’t do it when your “pattern recognizer” does.
I still await you telling me next week’s lottery numbers. When you successfully tell them to me then I will agree that your “pattern recognizer” works.
Richard
PS Have you considered using your “pattern recognizer” as a perpetuum mobile.

Reply to  richardscourtney
June 28, 2014 12:12 pm

richardscourtney:
If your lottery had the property of being “fair” then it would not be possible to construct a pattern recognizer for there would not be patterns to be discovered; as there would not be patterns, it would not be possible to obtain information about the numbers that would result from the following week’s draw. If, on the other hand, your lottery had the property of being unfair, it is conceivable that patterns could be discovered through the conduct of a scientific study and thus that information could be provided to the user of a pattern recognizer about the numbers that would result from the following week’s draw.
Games of chance are designed to be “fair” making it is quite likely that a given state-lottery will not support pattern discovery. The bibliography at http://www.entropylimited.com/pubs.htm cites studies which, in the past, have resulted in discovery of patterns which, by maximizing the mutual information provide the user of the associated pattern recognizer with the maximum possible information..
Regarding pattern recognizers and perpetuum mobiles, a competently built pattern recognizer is not an example of a perpetuum mobile or portion of one. A perpetuum mobile is a machine that violates the second law of thermodynamics. The second law is a specialization of the principle of entropy maximization. A competently built pattern recognizer satisfies this principle.

Bart
June 28, 2014 11:53 am

richardscourtney says:
June 28, 2014 at 10:59 am
I think Terry is playing a prank on you fellows. I think he means to receive information from the future by expansion on a functional basis. E.g., if you know the derivatives of an analytic function to infinite degree, then you know the values of that function for all points in the future by the Taylor series expansion. Or, a Fourier expansion, or any other expansion on a functional basis satisfying conditions such that you can resolve the components along each basis function. Satisfying those conditions and getting that resolution is where the difficulty arises.

Reply to  Bart
June 28, 2014 12:23 pm

Bart:
I’m not playing a prank. That you think I am may result from a lack of familiarity with information theory or with the numerous successful applications of it in the construction of optimal decoders of messages from the future over a period of nearly half a century. Citations to the associated studies are available in the bibliography at http://www.entropylimited.com/pubs.htm.

Bart
June 28, 2014 12:34 pm

Whatever you want to call it, Terry, a forecast is not a message from the future. People who can construct functioning closed timelike loops ought generally have better things to do than hang out on message boards like this one.

Reply to  Bart
June 28, 2014 6:54 pm

Bart:
You are correct in stating that a forecast is not a message from the future. It is a sequence of the outcomes of events that has the properties of a message from the future when these outcomes lie in the future. Of course, we could call this sequence something else. However, as it is mathematically precise and traditional, “message” fills the requirement for a term referencing this sequence.

June 28, 2014 1:10 pm

Terry Odberg says “That you think I am may result from a lack of familiarity with information theory or with the numerous successful applications of it in the construction of optimal decoders of messages from the future over a period of nearly half a century”
Terry why are you spamming this thread with futuristic nonsense that is not related at all to the topic? Are trying to misdirect more meaningful discussion?

June 28, 2014 1:36 pm

Bart and jim Steele:
I challenge you to find any WUWT thread where Oldberg has done other than try to deflect the thread from its subject and onto ridiculous nonsense. He is a very persistent troll, and nothing more.
Richard

June 28, 2014 3:26 pm

Steele
June 28, 2014 at 10:44 am
Many thanks Jim. To me the process seems like an amplified negative feedback, providing a potent overshoot in terms of the temperature impact globally. The increased transport of warm water polewards in the North Hemisphere from 1995 is the larger part of the total rise in global mean surface temperature since then, probably around 0.2°C out of a total of +0.3°C.
What this also means is that the temperatures proxies for the Arctic extrapolated from the Greenland ice cores through the Holocene, are the inverse for those for the temperate zone. A particularly good example is the warmest spike in Greenland temp’s from 1350-1150 BC. This was undoubtedly one of the most difficult cold periods for human populations in the temperate zone in history, and caused widespread collapse of many civilisations, including the Minoans that it is mistakenly named after.

June 28, 2014 7:28 pm

Jim Steele:
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to establish the pertinence of my response to the content of your article. Here’s the pertinence.
In the article you state that “Only by thoroughly examining climate history can we estimate natural contributions and evaluate earth’s sensitivity to rising CO2.” In my response I dispute one’s ability to separate a change in the global temperature into natural and anthropogenic components wherein the anthropegenic component is a kind of “signal” and the natural component is kind of “noise.” In climatological theory, the strength of this “signal” is sensitive to the atmospheric concentration of CO2. In order for it to support control of the climate, however, this “signal” would have to travel at a speed that exceeds the speed of light but such a speed violates the theory of relativity.
An anthropogenic signal cannot and does not exist unless that well tested theory of relativity is wrong. One of the consequences is that the climate sensitivity does not exist as a scientifically meaningful concept. The climate sensitivity is, however, the tool by which climatologists represent that the climate may be controlled.

June 28, 2014 7:59 pm

Terry Oldberg;
You are correct in stating that a forecast is not a message from the future. It is a sequence of the outcomes of events that has the properties of a message from the future when these outcomes lie in the future. Of course, we could call this sequence something else. However, as it is mathematically precise and traditional, “message” fills the requirement for a term referencing this sequence.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
What total and utter bull. You’ve done nothing more than create new definitions of words and arranged them in a clever order to make your claim sound reasonable and scientific. It is neither.

Reply to  davidmhoffer
June 28, 2014 8:27 pm

davidmhoffer:
In logic, to refute an argument one must cite the principle of logic or science that is violated by it. To assert that my argument is “total and complete bull” is not to cite the principle or science that is violated by this argument. Thus, your attempt at refutation of my argument is illogical.
Can you cite the principle of logic or science that is violated by my argument? If so, what is this principle?

June 28, 2014 8:51 pm

Terry Oldberg;
Can you cite the principle of logic or science that is violated by my argument? If so, what is this principle?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I can’t refute principles of logic or science in your argument since they do not exist. Your argument is nothing but marketing spin. Since it is not science or logic at all, but marketing spin, it is entirely accurate to label it for what it is. Complete and utter bull.

Reply to  davidmhoffer
June 28, 2014 8:58 pm

davidmhoffer:
You failed to answer my question. I gather, therefore, that you are unable to cite a principle of logic or of science that is violated by my argument. You claim to have refuted my argument without having actually refuting it.

June 28, 2014 9:29 pm

Terry Oldberg says:
June 28, 2014 at 8:58 pm
“””””””””””””””””””””””””””
I expect Terry, that you think yourself rather clever and that you have prevailed in this discussion. My observation is that even the common troll has value in this forum. By providing scientific claims that can be refuted by logic, fact, and reason, the readership becomes better informed. You sir, do not even rise to the level of a troll. You claim to gaze at storm clouds on the horizon, and deduce from them a message from the future. This is just playing at words dressed up as science. There is no message from the future. The message is from the past, for the past tells us that in this particular circumstance, we should expect a storm in the future. You have taken logic and science, turned them upside down, and defined them in such a way as to support your claim.
No matter how you twist the words Terry, they are at end of day, neither science nor logic. Just a bullsh*t claim built on twisted words. A marketing hack at best.
Terry, you can make a positive contribution to this debate if you cease this endless caterwauling over definitions and twisted claims that are, to quote the bard, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. You can be better than that Terry.

Reply to  davidmhoffer
June 28, 2014 9:49 pm

davidmhoffer:
Demonstrating the illogic of your counter-argument, you have yet again failed to identify the principle of reasoning or science that is violated by my argument. Replacing this identification, you have yet again resorted to emotional arguments e.g. I am a “troll” and mine is “Just a bullsh*t claim built on twisted words.”
If you know logic then you know that the words that are used in making an argument are nothing more nor less than references to the meanings of these words. Thus, for example, the word “message” can be replaced by the made-up word xYYz without changing the logic of the argument so long as “message” and “xYYz” have identical messages.

June 28, 2014 10:16 pm

I cannot argue anymore with you Terry. You make a bold claim, and when challenged, draw upon definitions that are meaningless to the science community in general, and only support your position by re-defining what receiving a message from the future actually means. If this is the best you can do in terms of building your credibility and influence in this forum, than I pity you. When youère ready to discuss real facts, science and reason without the acompanying work games, but all means. Until the, you are at the only level below that of a troll. Just a doddering old fool with nothing to say of any value to anyone and a compete distraction from the actual science and fact begin discussed.
Good night Terry. Don not fasten the tin foil hat too tightly, it gives the same results tightened s little or a lot.

Reply to  davidmhoffer
June 29, 2014 9:56 am

Samuel C Cogar
In reasoned debate, one either refutes the argument of one’s opponent if there is something wrong with it or accepts it if there is nothing wrong. Refutation is accomplished by citing the fact, principle of logic or natural law that is violated by it. One does not characterize the argument of one’s opponent in disparaging terms like “weaselworded trash,” and “FUBAR” because in addition to being rude such a characterization is irrelevant and distracting. As they are irrelevant, disparaging remarks in one’s own argument are a sign of weakness and not of strength in this argument. Slipping them into one’s own argument presents the danger that one or more members of the audience for the debate may be led to a false conclusion. A false conclusion may lead to deaths, bankruptcies or other tragedies thus disparaging characterizations are unethical.
With the exception of minor quibbles, I find nothing in your second paragraph with which to disagree. It does sound as though you missed an idea that I wished to impart to you. This is that while a telecommunications system may fruitfully employ an error correcting code, a control system may not do so. A result from the impossibility of an error correcting code is for messages from the future to be received with errors. One of the possibilities is for the received message to be randomly related to the transmitted message. In this case, the mutual information is nil and the system uncontrollable. A mutual information of nil is a characteristic of a lottery that is “fair,” accounting for one’s inability to provide Mr. Courtney with the numbers that will be drawn in next week’s lottery.
Regarding your second paragraph, you seem to suggest that notwithstanding the impossibility of employing an error correcting code information may be moved from the future to the present without a loss of information. There is usually a loss though. It is a consequence of the necessity for training the decoder on a sample of a smaller size that of the underlying population. Suppose, for example, that you have observed three swans and found that all of them are white. Can you draw from these data the conclusion that all swans are white? You cannot, for information that would be needed for a deductive conclusion about the colors of the out of sample swans is missing. The missing information is of the colors of the unobserved swans.
Problems such as this one have led workers at the intersection of science and information theory to impose a logical principle on pattern discovery. This principle is entropy maximization under constraints expressing the available information. It is the imposition of this principle that results in a correct accounting for the missing information by the pattern recognizer.
Regarding your fourth paragraph, I can’t tell you how to design an error correcting code for any sort of control system for such a code is not a possibility.
Finally, a forty-nine year old technology supports the construction of information theoretically optimal pattern recognizers that transport information about about the outcomes of events from the future to the present. Were you, Mr. Courtney and Mr. Hoffer to consult the published peer-reviewed literature on this technology, I believe you would find answers to all of your questions. The apparently complete ignorance of this literature on the part of the three of you has led to waste of time, energy and space in Mr. Watts’s blog. Why not pause this thread while the three of you bone up on the topic which you have chosen to debate?

Samuel C Cogar
June 29, 2014 5:35 am

Terry Oldberg says:
June 28, 2014 at 9:48 am
In the use of a pattern recognizer in telecommunications engineering, the use of an error correcting code makes it possible to send more information than is received with the result that the transmitted message may be received without error.
In the use of a pattern recognizer in control systems engineering, there is not an error correcting code and thus the message is received with errors. By building an information theoretically optimal pattern recognizer, one can minimize but not eliminate the propensity for making these errors.

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Terry Oldberg,
Don’t be talking weazelworded “trash” like that to me.
First of all, the use of an “error correcting code” doesn’t mean you may/might receive the “info” without error …. because receiving it without error is possible without an imbedded “correction code”. The use of an “error correcting code” simply means that if the received “info” is in error …. then it can potentially be “corrected” after it has been received. And you have to have a “means” of detecting a potential “error” before you have a “need” to correct it. The info/data can’t correct itself. That is, …. unless you have already invented some form of “smart data”.
And your 2nd paragraph is utterly FUBAR. In your 1st sentence you claim that because “something” is not there then you are gonna get errors. And in the 2nd sentence you claim that if you put that “something” in there then you are still gonna get errors.
Terry O, how ya gonna design an “error correcting code” for a voltage sensitive “recognition” control system?
Cheers, …. Sam C, …. an old logical designer dinosaur.

June 29, 2014 6:27 am

davidmhoffer:
At June 28, 2014 at 9:29 pm you say to Terry Oldberg

Terry, you can make a positive contribution to this debate if you cease this endless caterwauling over definitions and twisted claims that are, to quote the bard, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. You can be better than that Terry.

I regret the need to inform you that you are mistaken: Terry Oldberg is incapable of being other than that.
He has been trolling WUWT threads with his disruptive drivel for years.
There is only one needed action whenever Oldberg enters a thread to spout his nonsense. A refutation of his nonsense is needed to inform ‘newbies’. And after the refutation then ‘don’t feed the troll’.
Oldberg entered this thread at June 27, 2014 at 7:21 am with a meaningless piece of gobbledygook about control systems obtaining information from the future. I ridiculed it at June 27, 2014 at 7:38 am.
And Oldberg immediately followed his first post with a post at June 27, 2014 at 7:35 am which repeats his claim – which has been refuted many time – that climatologists do not make clearly defined predictions and projections. That is easily refuted and I linked, cited and quoted the IPCC definitions at June 27, 2014 at 7:57 am.
I had hoped that my replies to Oldberg would have informed ‘newbies’ so Oldberg’s contributions could be ignored after that. Unfortunately, credibility was given to Oldberg by Matt Skaggs when – at June 27, 2014 at 8:43 am – he queried my answer about the IPCC definitions so I replied to that at June 27, 2014 at 9:00 am.
After that Oldberg was in his preferred element of thread destruction by use of fantastic flights of illogic, and my attempts to stop it (e.g. at June 27, 2014 at 10:28 am) failed. The result is plain for all to see.
Richard

June 29, 2014 10:20 am

Terry Oldberg:
At June 29, 2014 at 9:56 am you ask

Why not pause this thread while the three of you bone up on the topic which you have chosen to debate?

I answer that we know all we need to know about you, and we have completed debating you, so you will be wasting your time if you continue with your insane narcissism.
Richard

Reply to  richardscourtney
June 29, 2014 2:29 pm

richardscourtney:
You characterization of me as an insane narcissist is revealing of a debating style in which you characterize your opponent or his argument in disparaging terms thus producing “refutations” that are devoid of intellectual content. Does the existence of an anthropogenic signal violate relativity theory? Through the logically and ethically illegitimate tactic of flooding the thread in which this issue was being discussed with disparaging text you’ve tried to win a battle in which you were out of ammunition. Shame on you!

Samuel C Cogar
June 30, 2014 8:18 am

Terry Oldberg says:
June 29, 2014 at 9:56 am
It does sound as though you missed an idea that I wished to impart to you. This is that while a telecommunications system may fruitfully employ an error correcting code, a control system may not do so.
—————–
YADA, ….. YADA, ….. YADA, ….. don’t be trying to impress me with your blatant ignorance …. or your Flying Spaghetti Monster imagination and “blue sky” dreams. So, take your “idea” and … shove it.
Then after you “shoved it”, ….. then educate yourself on a few realities in life. One of them being an “example” of a …… “hard-wired” error correcting code for a control system.
And you demand that I provide cited refutation that negates your silly arsed claims, … then so be it.
Here is a url “link” to said cited fact(s) and/or “principle of logic” that you requested, to wit: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3449735.pdf
So, … Terry O, … you read it in its entirety … and figure it out for yourself.
And don’t ask me to explain the “details” of it to YOU …. because I probably done forgot how it worked.
Cheers, Sam C

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