h/t to WUWT reader Pat. We are witnessing the crumbling of the consensus mindset. Stern looked like a deer in headlights.
Nicholas Stern is challenged by ABC’s Tony Jones on China/coal/renewables propaganda, and comes out looking very foolish indeed. The Richard Tol stuff is predictable:
VIDEO/TRANSCRIPT: 27 March: ABC Lateline: Back tracking on carbon pricing will damage Australia
TONY JONES, PRESENTER: We were joined just a short time ago from London by Lord Nicholas Stern who headed the review on the economics of climate change published in 2006.
He was also the principal adviser to the British Government on the economics of climate change and development from 2005 through to 2007.
Lord Stern is now chairman of the Grantham research institute at the London School of Economics. Nicholas Stern, thanks for joining us.
…
NICHOLAS STERN: What China is doing is growing rapidly and trying to reduce the fraction of coal in its energy portfolio and it’s succeeding in doing that.
TONY JONES: Sorry, can I interrupt you there. Do you know what it is at the moment? I found it hard to actually find details of this. What is the percentage of power produced by coal?
NICHOLAS STERN: I think it’s around – you’ll have to check this Tony but I think it’s just below 60 per cent coming down from considerably above 60 per cent.
Don’t hold me on those numbers. All I can tell you is that it’s coming down pretty rapidly in China as a result of direct policy and notwithstanding a likely doubling of the economy in 10 years, that they aim, during that period, to find a peak in coal and then bring it on down thereafter…
***TONY JONES: Finally, as scientists meet in Japan to thrash out the final wording on the IPCC’s next assessment report on the impact of climate change, British economist Professor Richard Toll who was one of the lead authors, has asked for his name to be taken off the document, claiming it’s alarmist and has been changed from talking, as he says, about manageable risk to the four horsemen of the apocalypse. How much damage will his departure do to the credibility of the final report?
NICHOLAS STERN: Not much. He’s always been somebody who as argued that the damages from climate change are there but very small. He’s an outlier really and I think his departure won’t make much difference.
***TONY JONES: Do you think it’s been orchestrated in some way? Is that what you’re suggesting?
NICHOLAS STERN: I don’t know whether it’s orchestrated or not. He’s making his own statements and he’s entitled to do that but I think he’s seen as a bit of an outlier in terms of someone who thinks the damages are much smaller than the rest of us fear and this is risk management, Tony.
You have to be very, very confident that the risks are going to be very small because the science tells us the risks could be very big and it is irreversibility here, as the concentrations in the atmosphere ratchet up, the high-carbon capital and infrastructure gets locked in. Delay is very dangerous so one person saying he thinks the risks might be very small is a very marginal part of the argument because most of the science is telling us that the risks are very big and with the irreversibility that we see in this, any kind of common sense or risk analysis says we should act strongly…
Video and transcript here:
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2014/s3973198.htm
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“…You have to be very, very confident that the risks are going to be very small because the science tells us the risks could be very big…”
Once again, the Precautionary Principle rears its ugly head. One has to be absolutely, 100%, without any doubt what-so-ever, confident that the risks are going to be small in order to state that view, but one need only point out that the science indicates that the risks might be very big, even if that is a scientifically insignificant chance, in order to demand massive action.
It is irrational on so many levels. First, the science is definitely pointing to little risk and mostly benefits from a modest warming. Stern is ignoring the science to maintain his catastrophic position. Secondly, the cost of action is never in their equations. Only the cost of inaction multiplied by an arbitrary multiplier derived from the high end forecasts of climate models that have already been shown to be far too high. The cost of action is very real and ignored. The cost of inaction is hypothetical at best, yet trumpeted as fact. Third, the effectiveness of action is almost never mentioned, because it is almost inconsequential and irrelevant. When it is mentioned at all, it is a lie, derived from some fairy tale calculations of kumbaya agreements that no country will adhere to, unless some form of cheap, safer nuclear energy becomes popular, in which case, this is all a mute point anyway.
Evoking the Precautionary Principle is the practice of agenda driven social engineers. It has no place in rational conversation, as it is an irrational concept, because implementation of the Precautionary Principle usually produces more harm than it avoids. It is a linear way of thinking in a non-linear reality. It doesn’t work!
I am still awaiting rationale as to why a trace chemical 4/100 of 1 % can cause anything,
Why? Isn’t the physics of this clear enough? The atmosphere is optically opaque in the CO_2 linked frequency bands with a very short mean free path of photons in these bands. It efficiently absorbs LWIR in these bands, and the CO_2 molecules that absorb the energy almost without exception collide with other air molecules and transfer that energy to them before/instead of reradiating it.
If the CO_2 were not there, dry air would be nearly completely transparent to LWIR and surface radiation would travel directly to outer space without warming the atmosphere. The colder atmosphere would radiate much, much less LWIR back at the surface — less because it is colder, less because it has no energy levels likely to be excited at the molecular energies corresponding to their temperature. The surface would receive, on average, less total energy in the form of radiation and the air in contact with it would be, on average, colder and more difficult to warm. The surface would then be colder.
As it is, the CO_2 absorbs a substantial amount of the radiation the surface emits, warms the air, and reradiates it back in the direction of the surface. The surface warms until its outgoing radiation rate compensates for the additional back radiation self-consistently. It is really pretty simple.
The cooling process of the dry atmosphere is also slowed by the presence of CO_2. The outgoing radiation that is absorbed near the surface that warms the atmosphere as noted warms the whole atmosphere, not just the CO_2 molecules. The dry atmosphere (warmed at the bottom, cooled at the top) is convectively unstable and as it circulates up and down in convective rolls it establishes a thermal profile called the dry adiabatic lapse, where it gets cooler as one gets higher and the atmosphere less dense without actually losing energy (because O_2 and N_2 radiate only very weakly at the temperatures involved). CO_2 is internally radiating all of the way up, but until you reach a sufficiently low density (so that the mean free path of LWIR photons in its radiation coupled bands is large enough that photons have a substantial probability of escaping from the atmosphere altogether with no further absorption) the photons are simply reabsorbed elsewhere, up or down or sideways, in the atmosphere with only a slow diffusive transfer of energy. The temperature of the atmosphere at the height where they finally become a channel through which the atmosphere itself can cool is much lower than that of the surface, and as a consequence the radiative flux from the much less dense CO_2 at that height is much smaller than the flux that would have been lost directly from the surface in precisely those bands if the dry atmosphere had no CO_2 in it.
With CO_2 or without it, the Earth SYSTEM has to emit radiation at the same average rate it absorbs it. The total incoming radiation rate is approximately independent of the presence or absence of CO_2 (which is not a good reflector, it is a good absorber). The rate that it emits it is either the rate it is emitted straight to space from the surface (no CO_2, atmosphere a weak absorber and radiator), determined by the temperature of the surface, or it is the sum of the rates it is emitted by the atmosphere to space in the greenhouse bands and emitted by the surface to space in the unblocked bands. The rate that it is emitted by the atmosphere to space in the greenhouse bands is strictly lower than the rate the warmer surface would emit in those same bands straight to space without CO_2. Consequently the surface must emit at a higher rate in the unblocked bands to balance the unchanged incoming rate of radiation. The only way it can radiate at a higher rate at all is by being at a higher temperature. End of story.
Note that this latter argument doesn’t depend in any meaningful way on whether or not the atmosphere is absorbing incoming energy as well as outgoing energy, or where that absorption primarily occurs. It only depends on the average temperature at which it radiates, and the fact that that temperature, for a variety of reasons, is almost always substantially cooler than the surface temperature.
In a non-dry atmosphere things are indeed more complicated, because water vapor is a more powerful and more prevalent greenhouse gas in ITS absorption bands, and because water vapor can undergo phase changes and contribute huge nonlinear shifts in albedo (that can reflect both incoming radiation before it warms the surface, and surface radiation that would otherwise escape to space outside of the greenhouse bands). But the idea is still the same — as long as any part of the total outgoing radiation is being emitted from gases at a much lower temperature than the surface in bands where the direct loss from the surface is blocked, the Earth system itself will not be in balance until it warms in unblocked channels enough to compensate.
There is direct, unambiguous evidence in the form of top-of-atmosphere downward direct spectrographs that clearly, unambiguously, show the radiation holes in the greenhouse bands, and equally clearly connect the mean temperature/rate of radiation in those holes to the expected upper troposphere temperature where the atmosphere becomes transparent in those bands. These spectrographs are essentially a photograph of the GHE in action. No physicist — no non-physicist — who sees these spectrographs and understands the simple ideas of detailed balance, radiation theory, and thermal radiation can possibly doubt the existence of a “greenhouse effect” even though the mechanism is ill-named and has little to do with the mechanism that warms actual greenhouses (which is as much blocking of convective losses as it is blocking of radiative losses and where the DALR is irrelevant).
It does the skeptical argument no good at all for skeptics to reveal a vast general ignorance of detailed balance, radiation theory, and thermal radiation in the first words out of their mouth in any given discussion of the greenhouse effect and global warming. The issue is not whether or not there is a greenhouse effect or that the effect itself makes no sense or isn’t substantially causally linked to a “trace gas” (that is present in sufficient concentration to make the atmosphere opaque to in-band LWIR hundreds of times over) — it is what marginal or differential variation in surface temperature one expects long after one passes the nonlinear threshold where the atmosphere first becomes opaque. If a mirror is already (say) 95% reflective with a silver coating 0.01 mm thick, it doesn’t become twice as reflective if you make the coating 0.02 mm thick. Maybe it makes it 96%. Maybe it makes it 98%. Maybe it makes it 99.9%. But at that point the marginal gain possible from thickening the silver is very, very limited.
The atmosphere is of course a lot more complicated. It is simultaneously already deeply saturated in CO_2 (so that doubling CO_2 can have only a very small effect at best) and it has multiple nonlinear coupled mechanisms that can either augment or cancel whatever effect a change in CO_2 might (all things being equal) otherwise have produced. The total feedback in those other mechanisms, in other words, can be positive or negative.
In the case of the actual atmosphere, the original GCMs from Hansen’s day on have asserted and implemented feedback (especially from water vapor) so strong that it actually exceeded the direct warming expected from CO_2. This is precisely the opposite of what one intuitively expects for an otherwise stable system — otherwise one has to explain why water vapor doesn’t all by itself cause a positive feedback ongoing warming — the Earth (say) warms a degree due to some natural fluctuation, which causes it to warm a second degree from positive feedback on that fluctuation, which causes it to warm a third degree from positive feedback on the positive feedback, to the point where even if the original fluctuation disappears, you now have runaway feedback from water vapor alone.
A small but (I think) increasing number of people (including many climate scientists) either already have long believed or are starting to believe based on substantial evidence that Hansen’s assertions of strong positive feedback are wrong, that net feedback is likely neutral to negative or at most only very weakly positive. This slow change in the position of climate science itself is “reflected” in the systematically decreasing estimate of total climate sensitivity, the supposed sum of direct CO_2 linked warming and all feedbacks. It has gone from Hansen’s originally egregious claims of 3 to as much as 5 or 6 C by 2100 down to where there is a bit of a battle to hold climate sensitivity on the high side of 2 C. Direct CO_2 linked warming is believed to be ballpark 1 to 1.5 C (where the physics itself isn’t well enough known to specify it more accurately, and where it is impossible to directly measure it or infer it from existing measurements of the multivariate climate system with its substantial natural variation). The total feedback has thus dropped from a multiplicative factor of as much as four — three parts of the warming due to water vapor feedback to one part direct warming by CO_2 — to less than 2, no more than one part water vapor to one part CO_2.
The actual range of hypothesized values has substantially increased, with some people asserting negative feedback from water vapor for a total climate sensitivity of as little as 0.5 C (one part to CO_2 accompanied by minus a half part from water, largely due to increases in albedo that outweigh any increased greenhouse effect from water vapor per se), some people asserting nearly neutral (no net) water vapor feedback so that the direct warming from CO_2 is all we are likely to see, somewhere around 1-1.5 C total by 2100 plus or minus natural variations not unlikely to be on the same general scale, and with some people still asserting a half-part or so positive feedback for a total around 2.2-2.4 C by 2100. Only hard core warmists still are holding on to more than this, and they are as much an embarrassment to the warmist side of the debate as greenhouse effect “deniers” are to the skeptical side of the debate.
Sadly, those hard core warmists still have their side adequately and completely inappropriately represented by the hottest running broken GCMs, which the IPCC and CMIP5 people have stubbornly resisted removing from the multi-model ensemble mean that the use to make predictions, assign confidence intervals and generally maintain the panic. This is a shameful thing, and one day all of science will have its reputation tarnished if — as seems increasingly likely — the planet experiences distinctly non-catastrophic warming due to even a doubling of CO_2 or worse, if net feedback indeed is negative, natural variation has been more than half responsible for the late 20th century warming spurt, and natural cooling outweighs the small marginally positive warming the Earth might have experienced from the additional CO_2 as the climate proceeds to continue its slow trajectory towards an expected but ill-understood glacial transition and the nice, warm Holocene comes to an end.
In a sane universe, there would be no warmists, no skeptics. The very terms are direct evidence that science itself has run deeply awry. All scientists should be skeptics. No scientist should ever display so much bias towards some particular theoretical prediction being correct (especially in what has to be the most difficult set of theoretical computations humans have ever attempted, computations that reach the envelope of what is possible with no prior experience to validate any aspect of the results) that they could legitimately be called “warmists” because they hold onto the theoretical predictions as being more probably true than reality itself even as evidence accumulates that they are completely wrong.
One day soon — maybe — nature will resolve the matter. Maybe in years, maybe in decades. Eventually either it will have deviated so far from the theoretical predictions that no rational scientists can “deny” that the GCMs are badly broken and that climate sensitivity is low and within the bounds of natural variation or that broken GCMs or not, the climate is definitely warming at a potentially catastrophic rate in the long run, with a warming signal that does indeed outweigh natural variation. At the moment, there is literally no way to disentangle natural warming or cooling trends from a CO_2 driven component. In a strongly coupled, nonlinear, chaotic system there may never be! At least, none that we can ever reliably compute.
rgb
Serious question: Why are the warmies ranting about China anyway? Is this a strawman “example of good”? Suggesting, maybe we should have a global communist government; then we could all like in a green paridise, just like China? or “Look, even China is getting on board!”
Clearly, China is doing what is best for them. I am quite sure that they are not concerned about CAGW. I suspect any reduction in coal “portfolio” is strictly a smog reduction attempt, or possible LNG is saving them money? I am not sure on the economics of coal vs LNG.
China is digging its own coal.
So that Australia will not sell its coal.
This man is an economist?
But China will only need to do this for the next 10 years.
Then it will have peaked at coal production and consumption.
Cor blimy govner chimchimnay chimchimchary
Ok, on the topic of China, could the siteing location of the Mauna Loa CO2 measurment station be unduly influenced by China’s massive CO2 output? I remember reading a post that showed that CO2 was not actualy well mixed. Could the global CO2 concentrations be lower than Mauna Loa indicates?
“China’s use of coal has slowed to less than a third of what it was increasing”
Progressive double-speak. My favorite is when people in Washington increase spending on their pet programs year after year, but constantly talk about massive spending cuts, because the increase in spending was less than they hoped. It was only a reduction in what they wanted, but still an increase in what they had. They call it a spending cut for the sole purpose of deluding the people who voted for them, basically calling them idiots in the process.
Here is my theory which is mine and belongs to me. CAGW/CACC is a coalmine canary for mass credulity. Just when First World mind control through leftist solidarity* of the mass media and public education was reaching critical mass as indicated by the near universal acceptance of the meme, the globalist ruling classes were thrown a curve by the emergence of an uncontrolled global market of ideas— the Internet— and a popular media outlier— Fox News. (Memo to Lord Stern: better an outlier than an out-and-out-liar.) Suddenly the canary has regained consciousness!
The global governance camel’s nose is in the door, but is being pushed back much harder and more effectively than expected by Climategate, the Hiatus and the recent “sensible” cooling trends with accompanying “cooling is warming” Newspeak (if the temperature plummets in the forest and everyone is there to feel it, is it still getting warmer?) These are being publicized and popularized by the alternative media and water cooler chat and are on the tipping point of going viral. So now it is all hands to the camel’s backside to push it the rest of the way through the door by sheer force of consensus-is-science Newspeak and international peer pressure. Thus Papa Stern calls out the shameful antisocial behavior of dear children Australia and Canada— pointing to the recent crocodile tears of Black Sheep Brother China and hypocritically taking personal credit for the US’s recent hygiene turnaround— and stresses that the Family of Nations is ready to welcome back the Prodigals with open arms. Gag me.
*I am not a pure conspiracist, but a solidaritist/conspiracist; conspiracy is the tip of the iceberg, from there it’s solidarity all the way down, Solidarity-of-error (clapping for Tinkerbelle) is the New Truth. Its poster children are legion.
Stern doesn’t want ABC to see what he’s up to in the background. Does here really care about global warming or something ‘green’ that rides on the back carbon? No wonder he want action to ‘tackle’ climate change.
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/03/28/matt-ridleys-new-article-in-the-wsj-a-dose-of-pragmatism-about-revelations-from-the-new-ipcc-report/#comment-1600311
Spoken like a true economist. Now who is the outliar?
What a load of utter tosh and alarmist garbage. The reasons he says “we should act strongly” can be found HERE. It’s called carbon profits and profiteering.
Col Mosby,
“Coal has dropped in importance and is now 66% and will be 44% by 2030, the same as the U.S. ”
No, you cannot say what it will be in the future, only what it is now and has been previously. Anything else is just wishful thinking.
CodeTech says:
March 28, 2014 at 5:01 am
Sure, it’s [% of coal-derived energy] a misleading indicator, as with many things from the alarmists.
This from Stern is an outrageous use of misinformation. Even Mueller (pre- and post-cooption by the warmists) notes that the Chinese increase in coal is so enormous as to make reductions in the US (and obviously Britain and Europe) immaterial.
And the exchange succeeded because the interviewer didn’t know his stuff or wasn’t prepared to contradict his paymasters.
A clear case where observations and facts trounce rhetoric.
“high-carbon capital and infrastructure gets locked in. ”
Is this code for “we will regulate to make industry leave the fossil fuels in the ground?”
China coal production:
“While Beijing said in September that it would cut the share of coal in its primary energy mix to “less than 65 percent” by 2017, down from 66.8 percent in 2012, consumption will still rise in absolute terms, with total energy demand set to grow 4.3 percent a year over the 2011-2015 period.
“The 2011-2015 plan said around 860 million tonnes of new coal production capacity will be brought into operation, as well as 300 more gigawatts of coal-fired power, twice the total generation capacity of Germany.”
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/01/07/china-coal-idUKL3N0K90H720140107
Dave says:
March 28, 2014 at 4:56 am
“because the science tells us the risks could be very big ”
Surely there must be many alarmists who read WUWT. Could one of you please tell me exactly what the “science” is that leads you to your conclusions?
========================================================
Uhh, Dave, that’d be POLITICAL science…
I watched the whole thing and did not see it as hard questioning of Stern at all. He was given a platform to air his views and the interviewer simply asked him leading questions that allowed him to make his main points.
The take at WUWT on this is a bit skewed if you ask me, and it no way shows any crumbling in resolve.
It would have been a perfect opportunity to point out some simple mathematical realities about emissions from China and India and what they really mean about reductions in countries such as Canada and Australia, an opportunity that was missed.
F.A.H. says:
March 28, 2014 at 7:42 am
” reference to a cavalier dismissing as an outlier anything that does not agree with your pre-conceived notion. I am thinking of modifying the joke the next time to replace the astronomer with a climate scientist.”
Or, more accurately, to an Economist with a wish to sit in the House of Lords.”
The reason why China’s coal is a smaller proportion of energy production is because China has an extremely aggressive nuclear construction program. The latest plant to go online is the Yangjiang unit 1 with 1080 MWe and is a CPR-1000 pressurized water reactor. There are a total of 5 more plants under construction at that same site and Yangjiang-1 is the 20th Chinese nuclear plant to connect to the grid. All six reactors at that site are expected to be operational by 2018. The Fuqing-1 plant has recently undergone its “hot” tests and two other plants are currently pressure testing their containment at last word. The Fujian site will also host 6 reactors. A total of 28 nuclear plants are currently under construction in China in addition to the 20 currently operating.
The presenter seems to be implying that if China can reduce their reliance on coal, then so can Australia. The problem with that line of thinking is that Australia has exactly zero commercial nuclear power generation and as far as I know, has no plans to build any. So the means by which China has reduced the coal portion of her energy production mix is unavailable to Australia. Holding up China as some sort of an example for Australia to emulate is complete nonsense given the current regulatory environment in that country.
I think the ABC presenter let Stern get away with murder! It was like watching the BBC having a cosy love me-love you chat with the leader of the Lib-Dem (i.e. Liberal) Party. The Chinese are rapidly increasing their coal production to lessen their imports – factual common sense. They say they will reduce their “consumption” of coal in about 10 years time – wishful thinking and highly unlikely!
In addition, while coal might be a decreasing proportion to the total energy production, what is the actual absolute coal consumption? Coal consumption could still be rising but is limited to mine production and port capacity for imports though overall energy production could be rising faster due to the nuclear plants being brought online. So while coal’s total percentage of the energy production might be in decline, the amount of energy produced by coal could well be steady or increasing in China.
According to Rupert Darwall in The Age of Global Warming, it was China that derailed the 2009 Copenhagen Conference – because they weren’t about to compromise their development plans for the sake of an agreement on Global Warming. Darwall also wrote that China’s chief climatologist , or at least the main govt advisor on the topic, had already told the Chinese officials not to worry too much about AGW. So I suspect that while China may be willing to attend meetings, and even talk up renewables, their energy policy including use of coal is not affected by any attempts to reduce CO2. They may also have other reasons to improve their energy mix such as reducing (real) pollution.
China will always be willing to talk about and support CO2 policy that hamstrings their global competitors.
As has been said by many a smart observer, civilization advances one funeral at a time. It is surely past time for Lord Stern’s, to ensure the greater good, is it not?
When you have more and more outliers, they aren’t outliers anymore.
Even the CBC (Canada;s version of the uber-warmist BBC or the Aussie’s ABC) is finally catching on to the global warming scam.
______________________
From a friend,
This little YouTube video is only a minute and a half in length. My friend just sent it to me. It’s funny and pretty much sums up what we here are all feeling about winter. It’s been hanging on sooooo long!!! Woke up to it snowing this morning….againnn….. They say it will be warming up on
Monday…. Look at the video if you have a moment.
http://youtu.be/wkDvqQKGgDA
Jeff in Calgary says:
March 28, 2014 at 9:53 am
“Serious question: Why are the warmies ranting about China anyway? Is this a strawman “example of good”? Suggesting, maybe we should have a global communist government; then we could all like in a green paridise, just like China? or “Look, even China is getting on board!””
Our Western leftist journos are all Maoists; they grew up in decades where Stalin was already known to be a murderer of tens of millions; but Mao was still untouchable. That’s why the NYT and the BBC a few weeks ago had fawning articles to Mao’s 130th (I think) birthday that could have been written by the Chicoms themselves, completely ignoring the tens of millions of dead during the Great Leap Forward and the Culture Revolution.
So, they’d rather cut off their right hand before writing anything critical of China.