I have some work to do today that will take me away from being online, so it seemed like a good time for an open thread.
All topics within the bounds of the WUWT commenting policy are fair game. Of recent interest is Mann’s paper on Scientific American and this image (click to enlarge) with his forecast:
…and Lewandowsky’s Recursive Fury getting flushed.
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Kevin,
No, it doesn’t matter where the heat source is. All that matters is that the heat source (wherever it is) is supplying heat at a given rate (i.e. 342 Joules per second in this case).
Really, it’s not hard. See….
http://scienceofdoom.com/2010/07/26/do-trenberth-and-kiehl-understand-the-first-law-of-thermodynamics/
and …
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/17/the-steel-greenhouse/
“MikeB says:
March 22, 2014 at 2:26 am”
Ignoring semantics for a moment (Not sure where you were going with that BTW), can you explain how we can measure a global average temperature?
How is global mean temperature estimated? For clarification, when we speak of global temperature we mean at the surface of the planet, where we live. i.e. not the stratosphere, not the interior of the Earth. How is it measured? See here.
http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/originals/surface_temp.pdf
Re I Wylie
Agree with your thoughts….What we lack is a credible, high profile. media savvy spokesperson whose personal integrity and scientific credibilty are beyond dispute…if only Richard Feynman were still with us…I’d like to think he’d blow the scam right out the water….
“MikeB says:
March 22, 2014 at 4:09 am”
No. I said MEASURED. Estimates and averages are not measures! Please try again!
“MikeB says:
March 22, 2014 at 4:09 am”
You didn’t read the paper at the link you provide. I count the use of the word “model” 20 times.
Worm and parcel with the lay. Turn and serve the other way.
Sailors rhyme to aid remembering which way to cover and protect line from chaff and weather.
(sorry was inspired by the right hand lay and the left hand lay of the ropes in the image.
Patrick.
The paper I linked to was by Anthony Watts.
You didn’t read it either did you?
You never learn like that!!!!
MikeB says:
March 22, 2014 at 2:26 am
“As for the discussion on averages, I admit to not understanding the point you were trying to make. It seemed more semantics than substance.”
So you think that an animal in Siberia in winter can easily survive -60 deg C because the yearly average is only -10 deg C.
Because you just said the actual -60 deg C is only semantics.
Arctic sea ice still going up 2 weeks after usual top and making sea ice blog commentators who called the top on 10/3 2014 red faced. May be the year it goes back to average or a scary fall.
[Your 10/3 2014 is 10 March 2014, right? Mod]
Jordan says:
March 21, 2014 at 1:21 pm
“While on the topic of the Arctic, does anybody have a reason for the positive sea temperature anomaly around Svalbard? It has been there all year.”
This year there has been no polar vortex, just low pressure regions wandering all over the place, randomly moving pockets of cold air southward. By chance, they missed Svalbard. Next year may be different.
DirkH
I don’t think I said anything about animals in Siberia and so your sentence begin with ‘so’ is obviously a non-sequitur . For your benefit that means not logical.
If I know that the average rainfall in the England is 990 mm per year then this ‘average’ is a meaningful figure. It allows me to compare England to the Gobi desert for instance. Furthermore, if I am told that the rainfall last year was 1300 mm, then I know that 2013 was a very wet year, which it was. So averages are obviously useful and meaningful in certain contexts.
But, if anyone thinks that by forbidding the concept of ‘averages’ that greenhouse gas theory is going to collapse, think again. You’re going to have to do much better than that.
As for the Siberian tiger, and tigers everywhere, good luck to them..
Regarding the open water northeast of Svalbard this winter:
You do not need undersea volcanoes to explain it. I’ve been watching the movement of the ice all winter, as a hobby, and it has been unusual. What would be more usual is for the Transpolar Drift to bring ice across the Pole and down into Fram Strait, which tends to eventually bring ice against the northeast coast of Svalbard. Also the polar easterlies scoot ice along the ice-edge boundary in Barents Sea against the northwest and west coast of Svalbard. Although these two motions did happen this winter, they were also interrupted by shifting winds that moved ice away from Svalbard.
The most interesting motions defied the Transpolar Flow, and pushed ice towards Canada, building the amounts of ice in the Beaufort Gyre. While that does increase ice in that part of the Arctic Ocean, it robs the area around Svalbard of its usual quota of imported ice.
Most of the ice pressing towards Svalbard this winter did not come from the Transpolar Drift, but from the Barents Sea, robbing that area of ice and resulting in a lot more open water. I’m surprised Alarmists aren’t making a bigger deal about that open water, for it is at “unprecedented” levels. (IE since 1979, and ignoring historical reports from the pre-satellite era.) This shows in the cryosphere graph: http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/recent365.anom.region.6.html
The openness of Barents Sea is largely due to the weather pattern that exported cold down over North America and imported milder air up over Europe. Not only did this mean there were times there was no cold air available to form ice in Barents Sea, it also meant that when the ice did form it was exposed to strong winds that moved it out. There were several good surges of ice right by Svalbard, resulting in increases of ice in Fram Strait even as there were decreases in Barents Sea. Briefly the extents were even above normal in the Greenland Sea south of Fram Strait: http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/recent365.anom.region.5.html
This differs from the situation in 2007, when a lot of the ice that flushed south through Fram Strait came across the Pole on the Transpolar Drift, reducing the amounts of ice as far away as Bering Strait. This time the flush comes from a smaller area, largely Barents Sea.
I’ve been watching the situation for years now, and one huge misconception I originally had was that the ice up there is static. FAIL. It is amazingly mobile. The “North Pole Camera” only starts its life near the Pole. Usually it is south of Fram Strait in only six months, where the break-up of ice ends its life. The GPS from last years “North Pole Camera” wound up on the northeast coast of Iceland last January, having drifted over 1600 miles since the prior April.
While some of the ice piling up north of Canada is over five years old, most ice up by the Pole is so mobile it has a hard time seeing a second birthday.
My impression is that the ice up there is increasing on the Pacific side, and at a sort of “low tide” on the Atlantic side.
Correction to third and fourth sentences of above comment. (I got my compass points mixed up.)
“What would be more usual is for the Transpolar Drift to bring ice across the Pole and down into Fram Strait, which tends to eventually bring ice against the northwest coast of Svalbard. Also the polar easterlies scoot ice along the ice-edge boundary in Barents Sea against the northeast and east coast of Svalbard.”
“MikeB says:
March 22, 2014 at 4:37 am”
Maybe, however can you please explain how a global average is measured.
I found this to be interesting but, climate science ignorant, don’t know what to make of it…
Antarctic moss revived after 1,500-year ‘deep freeze’
To a novice like myself, it appears to suggest at least a localized warm to cold to warm climate cycle within the 1500 year period.
I started reading SciAm as a subscriber in the early 60s as a high school student (and still have most of those issues in the attic) – didn’t understand half of what I read at that time, but knew I wanted to know a lot more of what it was all about. Now, when I read SciAm (which is rarely anymore), I still don’t understand half of what I read, but for very different reasons.
J. Phill Peterson – see you’ve popped in again. Your education is lagging, you need to get on with it – you have a long way to go to catch up.
“somersetsteve says:
March 22, 2014 at 4:10 am
Re I Wylie
Agree with your thoughts….What we lack is a credible, high profile. media savvy spokesperson whose personal integrity and scientific credibilty are beyond dispute…if only Richard Feynman were still with us…I’d like to think he’d blow the scam right out the water….”
Many of those people already exist. It wouldn’t matter. The agenda, well funded, is to blow those people out of the water. What you can’t refute with facts, you steamroll with stupid. The money brokers in this fight are well schooled in this. You can still buy Manhattan for $24 worth of beads, baubles and bright shiny things.
The Royal Society recently answered readers questions on climate change. Here are the answers:
http://royalsociety.org/uploadedFiles/Royal_Society_Content/policy/projects/climate-evidence-causes/google-moderator-top-20-climate-answers.pdf
I asked #3, would be interested in your feedback on their answer.
Caleb says:
March 22, 2014 at 5:46 am
I always find this the most interesting way of looking at the Arctic Ice.
http://www7320.nrlssc.navy.mil/hycomARC/navo/arcticictn_nowcast_anim30d.gif
It gives a living, breathing, view of the last 30 days which can often help explain why the nominal ‘totals’ differ day to day as well see exactly the sort of ice flows you are describing.
MikeB says:
March 22, 2014 at 5:36 am
“DirkH
I don’t think I said anything about animals in Siberia and so your sentence begin with ‘so’ is obviously a non-sequitur . For your benefit that means not logical.”
Well, as temperatures of -60 deg C are only a semantic point we don’t have to worry about them, n’est-ce pas?
Do you also think that heat waves are purely semantic?
So let’s agree that we have an average temperature of 14.5 deg C now; a little too cold for me but easy to handle with a little bit of clothing.
If CO2AGW comes to pass we might end up with 16.5 deg C in 2100 so we can strip off a little bit of clothing and we’re done.
Whatever temperature really occurs anywhere on the globe is clearly just semantics.
Isn’t it so, Mike?
Open thread’s I like.
Noticed multiple magnetic pole shift’s in the ice and sediment core video, hmmm.
Mr. Smith’s essay is intriguing.
Color me Agnostic.
MikeB says:
March 22, 2014 at 2:26 am
“If the rate of heat loss is restricted by some insulation (say a blanket or a layer of CO2) then the temperature of the object will rise.”
Nobody has ever used an IR-active triatomic gas as insulation. If that worked you’d fill double glazed windows with water vapor which would insulate even better than CO2. But you don’t because it doesn’t. Hint. Re-emission, Kirchhoff’s Law.
Will someone give some feedback on this prog on Fox TV I saw a link on FB
“Wow, nice lineup from my friends at The Independents. Skeptical Environmentalist Bjorn Lomborg, Bill Nye the Science Guy, Reason’s Ron Bailey, Cato’s Jerry Taylor, Dan Weiss, NYT’s John Tierney, and global warming denier extraordinaire Marc Moreno”
Last Friday 21st and repeated 7pm Sunday
http://reason.com/blog/2014/03/21/tonight-on-the-independents-environmenta#comment
show page where video should appear soon
but no extra info
http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/the-independents/#
RE: RichardLH says:
March 22, 2014 at 7:42 am
I agree and personally refer to that animation often. It really does give you a sense of how mobile the ice is, and how it pulses with the passage of each storm. (The other Navy maps on the “Sea Ice Page” can also be animated, and give you the same sort of feel for the flows of ice.)
What has been most interesting to watch is the slow growth of the thicker ice shown by yellow in the animation you link to. Yellow represents ice over ten feet thick, compared to ice around six feet thick by the Pole and ice only a couple feet thick around Svalbard. A couple of years ago the yellow ice had been reduced to a slender strip north of Greenland and the Canadian Archipelago, but now yellow ice forms a far fatter backwards “L” shape and is entering waters north of Bering Strait that were ice-free two summers ago, after that notable gale. It will be much harder to get those waters ice-free this summer.
(There is probably space here for off-color jokes about Alarmists and the color “yellow,” especially “yellow snow,” but I am going to demonstrate good taste by stifling my sense of humor.)