We Must Get Rid of the Carboniferous Warm Period

Guest essay by Phillip Mulholland

Late Carboniferous to Early Permian time (315 mya — 270 mya) is the only time period in the last 600 million years when both atmospheric CO2 and temperatures were as low as they are today (Quaternary Period ). Temperature after C.R. Scotese http://www.scotese.com/climate.htmCO2 after R.A. Berner, 2001 (GEOCARB III)

In a previous thread on WUWT published on 13 September titled Claim: atmosphere heats the oceans, melts Antarctic ice shelf, Sridhar Anandakrishnan, Professor of Geosciences, at Penn State is reported as saying:-

“Eventually, with all that atmospheric heat, the oceans will heat up.”

Well, that statement may or may not be true, but one thing we can be certain about, it does not apply to the seas around Antarctica.

A former colleague of mine had on the wall of his office a standard map of the World with the continents coloured by surface elevation. Unusually his map showed the icecaps of Greenland and Antarctica, not as featureless white regions, but instead coloured by the true elevation of the ice surface. What his map showed is the dramatic height of this surface, both over the bulk of Greenland and also over the vast majority of Antarctica, with layers of ice piled high into the atmosphere forming a plateau as tall as the mountain ranges of other continents.

His map demonstrated why Antarctica at 2,500m has the greatest average surface elevation of all the continents. With its high surface elevation that reaches a plateau maximum at Dome A of just over 4,000 metres, Antarctica stands taller in the atmosphere than any other landmass. With thin dry transparent air above it and the long months of the Austral winter, the ice surface of Antarctica acts as a gigantic thermal radiator that short circuits the atmospheric greenhouse effect and exhausts surface radiant energy directly into Space.

Throughout the winter season of darkness in Antarctica the thermal cooling of the ice surface generates copious amounts of cold dry dense air, this bitterly cold tropospheric air flows north off the icecap towards the Southern Ocean, descending to sea level as a gale force katabatic wind. The wind that Captain Scott referred to when he wrote “Great God this is an awful place”.

When the dense cold air reaches the coast at the Weddell Sea, its temperature is sufficiently low to flash freeze any open surface sea water, but the wind’s continuous force directs any newly formed ice north, away from the coast, creating a permanent open water gap The Latent Heat Polynya.

Oxygen is a reactive gas vital for the survival of animal life. In the oceans, oxygen can only be created either by biological activity in the surface waters of the photic zone or be directly dissolved from the atmosphere by the turbulent mixing of surface waves. In the planetary ocean sea water is layered by density and cold dense water is found throughout the bulk of the modern deep ocean. One of the challenges for Oceanography is to explain the presence and distribution of dissolved oxygen gas in the ocean deeps, given that it cannot have been formed there.

The explanation for the presence of this deep ocean oxygen lies in the existence of the Latent Heat Polynya in the Weddell Sea and elsewhere along the coast of Antarctica. Here, in the polynya, cold dense sea water is created, chilled and oxygenated by the katabatic winds of Antarctica and salted by the key process of brine rejection – dense salty water expelled from the continuously formed sea ice. This chilled sea water descends into the ocean as a gravity driven flow of high salinity brine that carries the dissolved oxygen vital for deep marine life down into the ocean depths. Truly it can be said that the polar icecaps are the lungs of the deep ocean.

The current climate paradigm recognises two distinct and separate states for world climate, the Icehouse World and the Greenhouse World. The Icehouse World is characterised by low atmospheric carbon dioxide levels, cold ocean deeps with high levels of dissolved oxygen and of course, polar continental icecaps with consequent low global sea levels. The Greenhouse World by contrast is characterised by high atmospheric carbon dioxide levels, warm ocean deeps with low levels of dissolved oxygen, no polar continental icecaps and therefore high global sea levels.

Geology shows us that in the past during the Cretaceous period, at a time when the world did not have any polar continental icecaps and global sea levels were high, the ocean deeps were filled with warm +15C dense salty oxygen-poor water creating the required conditions for global marine anoxia and the deposition of Sapropel, (biological carbon) in deep ocean muds of, for example, the Cretaceous Boreal Ocean. The implication here is clear, because warm sea water has a low dissolved gas carrying capacity, anoxia is preferentially associated with warm world conditions and the presence of sapropel in the Geological record is considered to be diagnostic of a Greenhouse World.

This dichotomy is a fundamental tenet of climate science. That climate can be in one state, either global cold – the Modern world, or global warmth – the Cretaceous world, but not in both states simultaneously. However this tenet is wrong and Geology proves that it is wrong. It is indeed possible to have a world with a massive continental polar ice cap, an Icehouse World diagnostic, and simultaneously anoxic prone warm water ocean deeps, a Greenhouse World diagnostic, and that world was the Carboniferous period.

Imagine a world with no South Atlantic Ocean, instead South America is joined directly to Africa, a world with no Southern Ocean, instead Antarctica is joined directly to Australia and also no Indian Ocean with instead the Indian landmass (along with Madagascar) filling the jigsaw puzzle gap between South America/Africa/Arabia and Australia/Antarctica. This southern continent is called Gondwana by Geologists. Imagine this gigantic Gondwana continent covered with an ice sheet that at its maximum extended from the South Pole across an area equivalent to all of Antarctica, Southern Australia, India, Madagascar, south & east Africa and southern South America combined. This continental icecap existed throughout the Carboniferous period. The modern world’s single polar ice continent of Antarctica is puny in size compared to this ice monster.

Victorian geologists were very interested in the Carboniferous period; the coal won from these rocks powered their industrial world. Studies of the Carboniferous strata in north Yorkshire demonstrated the existence of Cyclothems, repeated patterns of marine sedimentation that start with a coal seam, the remains of an equatorial forest being drowned and then often overlain by marine limestone. The limestones were then in turn overlain by river delta sediments as the coast moved seaward and the shallow sea retreated. Eventually the swamp forests regrew and another coal seam was created. The Victorians recognised that this rhythmic depositional cycle seen in the Yoredale deposits of Yorkshire was controlled by eustatic sea level change. That is global sea level variations controlled by the waxing and waning of a major continental icecap. We now know that the icecap responsible for the Carboniferous cyclothems was located on the Gondwana continent.

So the deep oceans of the Carboniferous world were filled with cold oxygenated seawater created by the katabatic winds of the Gondwana icecap, just like those from the modern world’s Antarctica? Well no actually the deep ocean of the Carboniferous world was anoxic just like the later Cretaceous ocean. Again thanks to the Victorian geologists who studied the Culm deposits of Devon they recognised that the Carboniferous Culm contained radiolarian chert, pseudomorphs of calcite and abundant organic carbon. They concluded correctly that Culm was a deep ocean deposit, and although they did not recognise the true size of the ocean they were studying, we know because of their work, that the muds were bathyal sediments deposited below the carbonate compensation depth far from land. The carbon content of Culm proves that the Carboniferous world ocean was anoxic and that abundant marine sapropel was created and deposited in Carboniferous marine sediments which now form part of the oil and gas shale resource which supplies the hydrocarbon fuel used to power our modern industry and commerce.

So how can we resolve this paradox of the Carboniferous with its simultaneous continental icecap of Gondwana and an anoxia prone global ocean? In Geology, the present is often the key to the past, and we have a key to unlock this conundrum. That key is the modern Red Sea.

The Red Sea is situated in the northern hemisphere tropics between Africa and Arabia. Under modern climatic conditions, located beneath the Hadley Cell, the Red Sea experiences high insolation, high evaporation and low fresh water input. These features combine to produce a Red Sea marine bottom water with the highest temperature (21.7C) and salinity (40.6 psu) in the modern world, even with its current low carbon dioxide atmospheric conditions.

Although the outflow volume of Red Sea high temperature bottom water into the Indian Ocean does not impact the modern deep water temperatures of the World Ocean, the key point is that Red Sea deep water produced under a modern tropical climate has a higher density at 1028.579 kg/m3 than any of the cold deep water currently produced in Antarctica by the modern world’s polar climate. For example Antarctic Bottom Water has a minimum temperature of -0.8C, a peak salinity of 34.6 psu and a consequent density of 1027.880 kg/m3.

If these two bottom waters, cold oxygenated polar deep water and warm high salinity low-oxygen carrying tropical bottom water, were allowed to meet, the density stratification principle requires that the densest marine water will occupy the deepest part of the ocean. Red Sea bottom water is denser than the coldest water Antarctica can produce. In a straight contest between the Red Sea and the Weddell Sea, the Red Sea wins every time.

So consider now the Carboniferous period with its shallow tropical seas and vast coastal equatorial coal swamps and remember that half of the surface area of our planet is located between 30 degrees North and 30 degrees South. The shallow seas of the tropics are huge solar energy collectors producing warm dense marine brines. Even in the Carboniferous with its gigantic Gondwana icecap the world was warm because in Oceanography marine water salinity trumps marine water temperature every time.

The Carboniferous shows us that with open ocean conditions the natural state of the world’s climate is as follows-

A polar continental icecap that produces cold oxygenated mid-level ocean water. This sea water is less dense and therefore is layered above the warm dense saline and anoxia-prone tropical water of the bathyal ocean depths.

I leave you with this conclusion. The Carboniferous was a warm ocean world, with low gas solubility in the deep sea. This produced an atmosphere suitable for land plants as they had an abundance of carbon dioxide gas to consume. Not for nothing does this period of Earth’s geological history have as its name the Carboniferous and yet in the mid-ocean above the deep abyssal anoxia, the pelagic fish also had an abundance of dissolved oxygen to breathe thanks to the presence of the Gondwana icecap and its coastal latent heat polynya.

This essay proposes that a fundamental tenet of climate science, that the world’s climate can be in one of two separate and distinct modes, either the Icehouse world or the Greenhouse world, is false.

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Philip Mulholland
October 7, 2013 3:36 pm

Thank you to all who posted replies, both for the kind comments of support and also for the technical challenges, particularly those addressing the geological substance of my essay.
Only have time at the moment to reply to one:-
gymnosperm October 7, 2013 at 7:57 am
An important paper on the Carboniferous Culm of south-west England was published in 1895. This is a short extract from the conclusions (p662):-

The picture, however, that we can now draw of this period is that while the massive deposits of the Carboniferous Limestone–formed of the skeletons of calcareous organisms–were in process of growth in the seas to the north, there existed to the south-west a deeper ocean in which siliceous organisms predominated and formed these siliceous radiolarian rocks. These are of much less thickness than the equivalent Carboniferous Limestones, but this may arise from the fact that the siliceous organic deposits are of far slower accumulation than calcareous beds, and they may well have occupied in their formation an interval of time as great as that taken by the formation of the limestones.
It is worthy of note that the deep-sea character of the Lower Culm of Germany, which corresponds with our Lower Culm Measures, had been maintained by Dr. Holzapfel, even before the discovery of radiolaria in the beds of Kieselschiefer furnished such strong evidence in support of this view.

G. J. Hinde, and H. Fox. 1895 On a Well-Marked Horizon of Radiolarian Rocks in the Lower Culm Measures of Devon, Cornwall and West Somerset.
Quarterly Journal of the Geological Society, Vol 51, p609-668.

October 7, 2013 8:26 pm

Hi Phillip,
I learned something today. Thanks for making the Carboniferous come alive again.

milodonharlani
October 7, 2013 8:53 pm

Julian in Wales says:
October 7, 2013 at 2:53 am
C4 plants like corn (maize) & sugar cane can still conduct photosynthesis at CO2 concentrations as low as ten ppm. The much more common C3 plants, including trees & most other crops, start starving at about 150 ppm. When CO2 level in their chloroplasts drops below 100 to 50 ppm, the catalyst rubisco which helps fix carbon starts fixing oxygen instead.
But C3, C4 & CAM plants all benefit from higher CO2 concentrations, up to at least 700 or 800 ppm.

milodonharlani
October 7, 2013 8:55 pm

PS: Actual greenhouses keep CO2 at 1000 ppm or more, but some people start getting head aches at that level.

October 7, 2013 10:52 pm

@D. Patterson 10/7 12:42 pm
Earth’s atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide have been depleted from upwards of 100 Earth atmospheres composed of more than 96 percent carbon dioxide or more than 960,000 ppm of carbon dioxide to less than 300 ppm in one Earth atmosphere.
What evidence/links do you have for a 100 bar early Earth atmosphere? No criticism, because it agrees with my view of the world’s history. (See July 11, 2013 at 1:01 pm in “… Faint Young Sun Paradox…”
Far too many times people refer to figures like “4000 ppm CO2” paleo atmospheres without bothering to consider 4000 ppm of a 10 bar atmosphere is far different than 4000 ppm of a 1 bar atmosphere. There is no reason to believe atmospheric pressures have remained constant for 3 billion years. So estimates Total Partial Pressures of CO2 is probably more informative than ppm estimates.
I know of no evidence for high Archean atmospheric pressures. Unfortunately Gary Hladik July 10, 12:14 pm found some to the contrary:

Archean surface pressure from fossilized raindrop imprints suggest that it was probably not much different from today, though the authors leave open the possibility that pN2 could have been as much as twice [present] as an upper limit (Som et al., 2012).”
http://faculty.washington.edu/dcatling/Som2012_Raindrop_Imprints_incl_Suppl.pdf (Som-2012 3.5MB)

In my 1:01 pm comment, I pointed out some potential holes in their analysis, but it was mostly because I didn’t like their result. As a fall back, I was reduced to:

Maybe Atmospheric pressures were zero at 4500 Mya after the Moon-forming impact occurred, gradually built up to 1-2 bar in the Archean 4000-2500 Mya, then builds up to 5-20 bar in the Paleozoic and Mesozoic 600-65 Mya to support large flying fauna, and drops off to 1 bar today.

So if you have something to support a higher atmospheric pressure to counter Som’s explanation of fossilized raindrops I’m eager to learn it.

Keith
October 7, 2013 11:18 pm

Regarding Trenberth and heat getting to the deep ocean, as pointed out here, Antarctic Bottom Water (AABW) is created around Antarctica, descends to the deep because it is dense, and then drives a lot of deep water circulation. We see evidence of its scouring action in many places, for example off the continental margin of southern Africa. A similar process produces Arctic Bottom Water (ABW). In both cases, if the process continues but with surface waters in the production zone being slightly higher (but not high enough to stop the process), it is conceivable that more heat would be transported to the deep. For example, AABW descends to the deep as normal but at a slightly higher temperature. However, if measured properly, the slightly higher surface temperature required should also raise the average surface temperature of the oceans too. Are there ARGO buoys deployed in the region of bottom water production? The point is that, considering how deep thermohaline convection currents are produced, it is difficult to see more heat reaching the deep ocean without first being noted in the surface ocean.

milodonharlani
October 8, 2013 12:05 am

Stephen Rasey says:
October 7, 2013 at 10:52 pm
There is no need to posit 5-20 bar in the Mesozoic Era to support powered flight by the largest pterosaurs. Oxygen may however have been more abundant (25-30% as opposed to today’s 21%) in the Jurassic & Cretaceous Periods, facilitating the evolution of powered flight in birds. Pterosaurs evolved in the Late Triassic, however, with O2 levels similar to or lower than now.
IMO it would be hard to explain how atmospheric pressure could have been 5-20 times higher than now during the Cretaceous, when the largest pterosaurs lived. Where did all that extra nitrogen (now 78% of air) &/or argon (less than 1%) go? While CO2 was much higher than now, it was still a trace gas. Perhaps surprisingly, the warm, equable Late Cretaceous may have averaged only about 1.4 times today’s water vapor in its air. There may have been more methane, thanks to giant sauropod flatulence & other biological activity, but still not enough to thicken the air significantly.
Assume for sake of discussion that the O2 level was 30%, or nine percentage points higher than now. Assume further that an approximately equal amount of N2 combined with O2 in various forms during the catastrophic atmosphere of the Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction event & somehow permanently left the air. This is likely to overestimate the amount of N2 lost, since both NO & NO2 would have been formed, & the O2 level might have been less than 30%. Thus Late Cretaceous atmospheric pressure might have been at most 18% higher than now, given this view of its two most important constituent gases. Throw in higher levels of trace gases, & call it 20%, tops, IMO.
The supposition that the biggest pterosaurs needed much thicker air to fly rested on estimates of their weight & strength now considered wrong. Some researchers thought they couldn’t fly at all. Recent anatomical estimates & biomechanical studies suggest that they could launch themselves into the air, flap for a while, then soar long distances rapidly. They would however have benefited from higher oxygen concentration during the leaping & active flying phases.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0013982
They could probably still fly in today’s relatively oxygen-poor & possibly slightly less dense air.

October 8, 2013 2:37 am

D. Patterson says:
October 7, 2013 at 12:42 pm
Very informative answer – I learnt a lot
“Carbon dioxide is being replenished in the Earth’s atmosphere by a variety of processes ranging from geochemical processes to biochemical processes and combustion. All forms of oxidation of a carbon compound results in a release of carbon dioxide. So long as there are forest fires, prairie fires, rotting organic matter, and asteroid and cometary impacts, there will continue to be emissions of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere; and so long as there is plant life around to eat the carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere, carbon dioxide will remain depleted to the minimum levels needed to sustain the plant life.”
It was suggested that Ice ages suck CO2 out of the biosphere – is that true? Perhaps by altering the balance of the carbon cycles?
milodonharlani says:
October 7, 2013 at 8:53 pm
So if the level drops to below about 150 there would be mass extinctions? Obviously this will not happen anytime soon, but is it possible?

John Whitman
October 8, 2013 4:47 am

D. Patterson says:
October 7, 2013 at 12:42 pm
– – – – – – –
D. Patterson,
Your discussion on the orders of magnitude of sources and sinks of atmospheric CO2 was well done.
It puts the fossil fuel burning source in reasonable perspective, an unalarming one.
Salby’s presentations on sources and sinks were reasonable too.
John

Christian
October 8, 2013 5:30 am

Regarding methane from non-organic sources, the Beatrix deep level gold mine in South Africa has large emissions which have caused explosions in the past. They are even considering using it to generate electricity. The interesting thing is that these rocks are PreCambrian conglomerates that rest on ‘basement’, so the methane is unlikely to come from anywhere other than at depth. There is also methane emissions recorded from South African platinum mines which are hosted in ultramafic intrusive rocks, again PreCambrian, with their origin from the mantle.

October 8, 2013 5:37 am

tadchem says:
October 7, 2013 at 11:59 am
“Much of what passes for ‘climate science’ involves verbal explication of presumed mechanisms. The weakness of this kind of argument is that it is biased towards positive feedback mechanisms.”
Right you are. And said bias toward positive feedback mechanisms is a prerequisite of/for the climate scientists and others that have a vested interest in touting their claims about the dire effects that will result via any increases in CO2 causing AGW.
In my learned opinion, the claims being touted about positive and negative feedback mechanisms associated with thermal energy transfers within the earth’s atmosphere are as disingenuous as the claims about “greenhouse” gases existing in the earth’s atmosphere.
The use of the words ….. positive, negative and greenhouse … serves no purpose whatsoever other than to influence and/or bias the public’s belief and opinion in favor of the “junk science” claims associated with CAGW.
To claim “positive feedback” verses “negative feedback” is to infer “fault” of a specific entity wherein “no fault” exists. The positive and negative “feedback” associated with a “bar” magnet is not a dastardly “fault” of its magnetic flux.
There is no such thing as a “greenhouse” gas in either the confines of an actual green house or in the earth’s atmosphere. Now if one wants to claim or infer there is a “greenhouse” effect to explain the results of thermal energy transfers within or out of a system, then fine by me.

Keitho
Editor
October 8, 2013 6:45 am

What a fascinating read. Thanks Mr. Mulholland.

October 8, 2013 7:56 am

An interesting piece to the methane puzzle is the tally (which is of course debatable) that there is way too much of it to have been produced by all the biomass that ever lived on earth.

milodonharlani
October 8, 2013 8:57 am

Julian in Wales says:
October 8, 2013 at 2:37 am
A drop to 150 ppm (Earth gets close during the depths of ice age glacial phases, down to 190 ppm or lower) would at the very least stress life. As C3 plants & the microbes, animals & fungi dependent upon them struggled, C4 & CAM plants might expand to take up some of the slack.
At 50 ppm, all C3 plants would perish.

October 8, 2013 9:08 am

Thanks Milodonharlani – you answered my questions

phlogiston
October 8, 2013 9:25 am

milodonharlani says:
October 8, 2013 at 12:05 am
Stephen Rasey says:
October 7, 2013 at 10:52 pm
There is no need to posit 5-20 bar in the Mesozoic Era to support powered flight by the largest pterosaurs. Oxygen may however have been more abundant (25-30% as opposed to today’s 21%) in the Jurassic & Cretaceous Periods, facilitating the evolution of powered flight in birds. Pterosaurs evolved in the Late Triassic, however, with O2 levels similar to or lower than now.
I agree. With the dinosaurs and pterosaurs its important also to remember that they have the same lung physiology / anatomy as birds. This is very different to the mammalian one. Essentialy, air travels only one way through the avian / dinosaur lung, due to a rather complex anatomy of air tubes and sacs extending into bones and other spaces in the animal. This is hugely – well about 10 times – more efficient than our tidal lungs where air comes in and goes out the same way. In our tidal breathing the O2 concentration drops to its minimum at the terminal alveolar sacs – just where it is most needed. By contrast air passing the avian / dinosaur alveoli has O2 at full atmospheric pressure.
This allows dinosaurs including birds to have smaller, rigid lungs which achieve much more efficient gas exchange. Thus the dinosaur / avian rib cage extends all the way to the end of the torso – no soft belly with a 6 pack. This is the reason why both birds and pterosaurs can fly, and why the dinosaurs ran rings around mammals for 150 million years.
So it is not necessary to give dinosaurs or pterosaurs a special handicap such as fictitious atmospheres to explain their obvious lifestyles e.g. flying of pterosaurs. They could do so I am sure even in the current atmosphere.
Thanks BTW for your response to my stream of consciousness about deep water currents and whales.

October 8, 2013 9:27 am

@milodonharlani at 12:05 am
There is no need to posit 5-20 bar in the Mesozoic Era to support powered flight by the largest pterosaurs. Oxygen may however have been more abundant (25-30% as opposed to today’s 21%) in the Jurassic & Cretaceous Periods, facilitating the evolution of powered flight in birds. Pterosaurs evolved in the Late Triassic, however, with O2 levels similar to or lower than now…
The supposition that the biggest pterosaurs needed much thicker air to fly rested on estimates of their weight & strength now considered wrong. Some researchers thought they couldn’t fly at all.

There are some circular arguments here. If some researchers thought they couldn’t fly at all, it argues for different atmospheric conditions than the researchers posit.
If Pterosaurs “evolved” in the Late Triassic, with “lower O2 levels” [in ppm or partial pressure?], then what ecological niche did they evolutionary fill? There must be some advantage in there size or they couldn’t survive in enough abundance to create fossils we’d find.
estimates of their weight & strength now considered wrong.
Says who?
There is an aerodynamics proposition that the power needed to stay aloft is inversely proportional to (air density)^0.5. (see “So Dinosaurs Could Fly, Part I” Jun 2, 2012 9:31pm

http://web.mit.edu/16.unified/www/SPRING/systems/Lab_Notes/airpower.pdf
Eq. 17 shows that the Power = Energy/time, is inversely proportional to sqrt(density), and proportional to weight^(3/2)
Can we assume that Max Power from an organism is no better than proportional to weight? Pmax proportional to W^(x) where 0 < x <= 1.
I conclude that the max weight of a flying organism is proportional to AirDensity^(1/(3-2x))
If x = 1, then Max weight is proportion to air density.
If x = 0.8, then Max weight is proportional to AirDensity^(0.71)

Bigger flying creatures prefer denser atmospheres. It is that simple. Evolution likes to fill niches where it can. We have fossil evidence that life filled niches in the past 400 MYa that don’t exist today.
Here is an article from Levenspier, Fitzgerald, and Pettit (2000) Earth’s atmosphere before the age of dinosaurs which discusses several questions about the amount of limestone and the size of fauna that point to higher atmospheric pressures in the past. I don’t accept some of their arguments, particularly the “Limestone Caves” chemical balance. Also accumulation of coal beds in the Carboniferous pointing to low oxidation rates, and therefore low O2 concentrations runs counter to the large insects like Meganeura of the time. But they are correct to point out that the large volume of Carbonates deposited over the past 500 MYa must point to much higher CO2 partial pressures. And with high CO2 partial pressures, don’t we need higher O2 partial pressures for animal life to survive.
An area-domain cross-plot of CO2 vs O2 partial pressures with domains for where animal life is possible, where forests fires are all consuming, where coals can accumulate from decaying plant life, where C3 and C4 plants thrive and die, would be an interesting graphic.

phlogiston
October 8, 2013 9:29 am

milodonharlani says:
October 8, 2013 at 8:57 am
Julian in Wales says:
October 8, 2013 at 2:37 am
A drop to 150 ppm (Earth gets close during the depths of ice age glacial phases, down to 190 ppm or lower) would at the very least stress life. As C3 plants & the microbes, animals & fungi dependent upon them struggled, C4 & CAM plants might expand to take up some of the slack.
At 50 ppm, all C3 plants would perish.

On that topic, this paper by Franck et al. is informative. In it the reason for final biosphere extinction is given as CO2 starvation.
http://www.biogeosciences.net/3/85/2006/bg-3-85-2006.pdf

October 8, 2013 1:59 pm

@phlogiston 9:25 am
Ok. Birds have the same physiology as pterosaurs ( a hypothesis ). Hopefully in 100 MY of evolution birds have made some physiological improvements on pterosaurs.
So… where are the birds who are as big as were the pterosaurs?
Where today are the dragonflies with 26 inch wing spans?

milodonharlani
October 8, 2013 2:07 pm

phlogiston says:
October 8, 2013 at 9:29 am
Thanks for that link. Not all C3 plants will immediately die out at 150 ppm, but will cease flourishing. By 100 ppm most will have died & all by 50 ppm.

Philip Mulholland
October 8, 2013 2:07 pm

Julian in Wales, October 8, 2013 at 2:37 am

It was suggested that Ice ages suck CO2 out of the biosphere – is that true?

Studies of the fossil flora at Rancho La Brea Tar Pits in California suggest that during the depths of the last ice age, the land plants were suffering from CO2 deprivation.

The climate in the Los Angeles basin during the end of the last Ice Age appears to have been a coastal maritime climate similar to that currently prevailing on the Monterey peninsula, approximately 300 miles north of Los Angeles. Evidence from pollen in deep sea cores suggests that the climate was both cooler and wetter than it is today in Southern California. However, isotopic evidence from Rancho La Brea mammals and plants indicates that that the rainfall was restricted to the winter. As the climate became cooler, so the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere became smaller. Carbon dioxide is important for plant photosynthesis. Evidence from the Rancho La Brea plant material, including the 14,000 year-old fossil juniper tree from Pit 3, indicates that the late Pleistocene plants were severely stressed and plant productivity was very low. Low plant productivity would have adversely affected food supplies for herbivores. This would in turn explain why the teeth of carnivorous mammals recovered from Rancho La Brea show more wear and damage than those of modern carnivores. Because the numbers of their herbivorous prey were reduced due to low plant productivity, the carnivores had to eat more of the carcasses, including the bones, and hence their teeth became damaged and broken.

milodonharlani
October 8, 2013 2:22 pm

Stephen Rasey says:
October 8, 2013 at 9:27 am
“There are some circular arguments here. If some researchers thought they couldn’t fly at all, it argues for different atmospheric conditions than the researchers posit.”
Those who thought they couldn’t fly did so based upon their faulty estimates of body weight & strength, not upon air pressure. What is circular is to make bad guesses about weight, then to infer from those that to have flown, they needed denser air.
“If Pterosaurs “evolved” in the Late Triassic, with “lower O2 levels” [in ppm or partial pressure?], then what ecological niche did they evolutionary fill? There must be some advantage in there size or they couldn’t survive in enough abundance to create fossils we’d find.”
Percentage of the air occupied by volume, ie ~20% instead of ~30% O2, so parts per hundred, not per million.
When pterosaurs developed, the niche of volant vertebrate did not yet exist. They were the first to fill it, apparently first by gliding to catch insects. They became giant only after tens of millions of years. They started out small bird-sized in the Triassic. Why would you put “evolved” in quotes? That’s what they did.
When in the Jurassic & especially the Cretaceous pterosaurs became big, bigger & biggest, increasing size did naturally confer selective advantages in new niches, such as skim-fishing over inland seaways. One way paleontologists know they flew is that their remains are often found in marine sediments. They didn’t paddle out there. Science also finds remains of the same species on both sides of the Atlantic, then admittedly much narrower than now.
“estimates of their weight & strength now considered wrong.
Says who?”
Please read the link I posted. It has been considered pretty despositive by most researchers.
“There is an aerodynamics proposition that the power needed to stay aloft is inversely proportional to (air density)^0.5. (see “So Dinosaurs Could Fly, Part I” Jun 2, 2012 9:31pm”
http://web.mit.edu/16.unified/www/SPRING/systems/Lab_Notes/airpower.pdf
Eq. 17 shows that the Power = Energy/time, is inversely proportional to sqrt(density), and proportional to weight^(3/2)
Can we assume that Max Power from an organism is no better than proportional to weight? Pmax proportional to W^(x) where 0 < x <= 1.
I conclude that the max weight of a flying organism is proportional to AirDensity^(1/(3-2x))
If x = 1, then Max weight is proportion to air density.
If x = 0.8, then Max weight is proportional to AirDensity^(0.71)
Bigger flying creatures prefer denser atmospheres. It is that simple. Evolution likes to fill niches where it can. We have fossil evidence that life filled niches in the past 400 MYa that don’t exist today.
Here is an article from Levenspier, Fitzgerald, and Pettit (2000) Earth’s atmosphere before the age of dinosaurs which discusses several questions about the amount of limestone and the size of fauna that point to higher atmospheric pressures in the past. I don’t accept some of their arguments, particularly the “Limestone Caves” chemical balance. Also accumulation of coal beds in the Carboniferous pointing to low oxidation rates, and therefore low O2 concentrations runs counter to the large insects like Meganeura of the time. But they are correct to point out that the large volume of Carbonates deposited over the past 500 MYa must point to much higher CO2 partial pressures. And with high CO2 partial pressures, don’t we need higher O2 partial pressures for animal life to survive.
An area-domain cross-plot of CO2 vs O2 partial pressures with domains for where animal life is possible, where forests fires are all consuming, where coals can accumulate from decaying plant life, where C3 and C4 plants thrive and die, would be an interesting graphic."
Nobody disputes that CO2 was much higher than now for most of the Phanerozoic Eon. Giant Carboniferous dragonflies show that oxygen content was also dangerously high then, at around 35%, producing frequent wild fires.
But that doesn't imply that Mesozoic air pressure was 5 to 20 bar. Again I ask, to where did that titanic amount of N2 suddenly disappear in the Cenozoic?

milodonharlani
October 8, 2013 2:34 pm

Stephen Rasey says:
October 8, 2013 at 1:59 pm
“@phlogiston 9:25 am
Ok. Birds have the same physiology as pterosaurs ( a hypothesis ). Hopefully in 100 MY of evolution birds have made some physiological improvements on pterosaurs.
So… where are the birds who are as big as were the pterosaurs?
Where today are the dragonflies with 26 inch wing spans?”
Birds, other dinosaurs & pterosaurs had similar breathing physiology. That doesn’t mean that the rest of their anatomies were similar. In some ways, pterosaurs more resemble bats, although not in O2 delivery system. Some faulty estimates of their weight & strength were based upon avian analogies that have been shown invalid.
There have been some very big birds in the past, including flying species, although not like the largest pterosaurs. Birds got big & stayed that way for a long time after the other dinosaurs & pterosaurs disappeared. Most pterosaurs, including all the little ones, had already gone extinct by the Maastrichtian, the last age of the Cretaceous, while birds had flourished.
The teratorns & other large volant birds existed fairly recently, ie in the Pliocene to Pleistocene. Some may have lingered long enough into the Holocene to inspire American Indian thunderbird legends, although I don’t find that suggestion too convincing. They achieved up to seven meter wingspans, versus the 10 to 15 m of the azhdarchid pterosaurs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentavis
Dragonflies were huge in the Carboniferous Period (not the Mesozoic Era) more because of high oxygen content than total air P much denser than now. Pressure was higher then, but not five to 20 bar.

Gail Combs
October 8, 2013 2:57 pm

milodonharlani says:
October 8, 2013 at 8:57 am
….At 50 ppm, all C3 plants would perish.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Originally I had a link showing 200 ppm was the lower limit. Then the Ice Cores started showing 180 ppm so the lower limit was then 180 ppm.

Carbon starvation in glacial trees recovered from the La Brea tar pits, southern California
ABSTRACT
The Rancho La Brea tar pit fossil collection includes Juniperus (C3) wood specimens that 14C date between 7.7 and 55 thousand years (kyr) B.P., providing a constrained record of plant response for southern California during the last glacial period. Atmospheric CO2 concentration ([CO2]) ranged between 180 and 220 ppm during glacial periods… As a result, glacial trees were operating at ci values much closer to the CO2-compensation point for C3 photosynthesis than modern trees, indicating that glacial trees were undergoing carbon starvation. In addition, we modeled relative humidity by using ?18O of cellulose from the same Juniperus specimens and found that glacial humidity was ?10% higher than that in modern times…. we found evidence that C3 primary productivity was greatly diminished in southern California during the last glacial period.

These are C#3 and not C4 or CAM which can deal with lower levels of CO2.
Where did you get 50 ppm from?

milodonharlani
October 8, 2013 3:08 pm

Gail Combs says:
October 8, 2013 at 2:57 pm
I know that trees are C3 plants, but there is a difference, as noted, between the point at which a plant starts suffering CO2 starvation & where it can no longer conduct photosynthesis at all. Humans for instance can survive on starvation diets for a long time before dying.
A plant’s CO2 compensation point is the level at which net photosynthesis stops. In the lab, this has been measured at between 50 & 100 ppm, depending upon the C3 species being investigated:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11607591
Obviously, in the wild, C3 plants will suffer between 100 & 150 ppm without necessarily perishing immediately.