Guest essay by Phillip Mulholland

Late Carboniferous to Early Permian time (315 mya — 270 mya) is the only time period in the last 600 million years when both atmospheric CO2 and temperatures were as low as they are today (Quaternary Period ). Temperature after C.R. Scotese http://www.scotese.com/climate.htmCO2 after R.A. Berner, 2001 (GEOCARB III) 
In a previous thread on WUWT published on 13 September titled Claim: atmosphere heats the oceans, melts Antarctic ice shelf, Sridhar Anandakrishnan, Professor of Geosciences, at Penn State is reported as saying:-
“Eventually, with all that atmospheric heat, the oceans will heat up.”
Well, that statement may or may not be true, but one thing we can be certain about, it does not apply to the seas around Antarctica.
A former colleague of mine had on the wall of his office a standard map of the World with the continents coloured by surface elevation. Unusually his map showed the icecaps of Greenland and Antarctica, not as featureless white regions, but instead coloured by the true elevation of the ice surface. What his map showed is the dramatic height of this surface, both over the bulk of Greenland and also over the vast majority of Antarctica, with layers of ice piled high into the atmosphere forming a plateau as tall as the mountain ranges of other continents.
His map demonstrated why Antarctica at 2,500m has the greatest average surface elevation of all the continents. With its high surface elevation that reaches a plateau maximum at Dome A of just over 4,000 metres, Antarctica stands taller in the atmosphere than any other landmass. With thin dry transparent air above it and the long months of the Austral winter, the ice surface of Antarctica acts as a gigantic thermal radiator that short circuits the atmospheric greenhouse effect and exhausts surface radiant energy directly into Space.
Throughout the winter season of darkness in Antarctica the thermal cooling of the ice surface generates copious amounts of cold dry dense air, this bitterly cold tropospheric air flows north off the icecap towards the Southern Ocean, descending to sea level as a gale force katabatic wind. The wind that Captain Scott referred to when he wrote “Great God this is an awful place”.
When the dense cold air reaches the coast at the Weddell Sea, its temperature is sufficiently low to flash freeze any open surface sea water, but the wind’s continuous force directs any newly formed ice north, away from the coast, creating a permanent open water gap The Latent Heat Polynya.
Oxygen is a reactive gas vital for the survival of animal life. In the oceans, oxygen can only be created either by biological activity in the surface waters of the photic zone or be directly dissolved from the atmosphere by the turbulent mixing of surface waves. In the planetary ocean sea water is layered by density and cold dense water is found throughout the bulk of the modern deep ocean. One of the challenges for Oceanography is to explain the presence and distribution of dissolved oxygen gas in the ocean deeps, given that it cannot have been formed there.
The explanation for the presence of this deep ocean oxygen lies in the existence of the Latent Heat Polynya in the Weddell Sea and elsewhere along the coast of Antarctica. Here, in the polynya, cold dense sea water is created, chilled and oxygenated by the katabatic winds of Antarctica and salted by the key process of brine rejection – dense salty water expelled from the continuously formed sea ice. This chilled sea water descends into the ocean as a gravity driven flow of high salinity brine that carries the dissolved oxygen vital for deep marine life down into the ocean depths. Truly it can be said that the polar icecaps are the lungs of the deep ocean.
The current climate paradigm recognises two distinct and separate states for world climate, the Icehouse World and the Greenhouse World. The Icehouse World is characterised by low atmospheric carbon dioxide levels, cold ocean deeps with high levels of dissolved oxygen and of course, polar continental icecaps with consequent low global sea levels. The Greenhouse World by contrast is characterised by high atmospheric carbon dioxide levels, warm ocean deeps with low levels of dissolved oxygen, no polar continental icecaps and therefore high global sea levels.
Geology shows us that in the past during the Cretaceous period, at a time when the world did not have any polar continental icecaps and global sea levels were high, the ocean deeps were filled with warm +15C dense salty oxygen-poor water creating the required conditions for global marine anoxia and the deposition of Sapropel, (biological carbon) in deep ocean muds of, for example, the Cretaceous Boreal Ocean. The implication here is clear, because warm sea water has a low dissolved gas carrying capacity, anoxia is preferentially associated with warm world conditions and the presence of sapropel in the Geological record is considered to be diagnostic of a Greenhouse World.
This dichotomy is a fundamental tenet of climate science. That climate can be in one state, either global cold – the Modern world, or global warmth – the Cretaceous world, but not in both states simultaneously. However this tenet is wrong and Geology proves that it is wrong. It is indeed possible to have a world with a massive continental polar ice cap, an Icehouse World diagnostic, and simultaneously anoxic prone warm water ocean deeps, a Greenhouse World diagnostic, and that world was the Carboniferous period.
Imagine a world with no South Atlantic Ocean, instead South America is joined directly to Africa, a world with no Southern Ocean, instead Antarctica is joined directly to Australia and also no Indian Ocean with instead the Indian landmass (along with Madagascar) filling the jigsaw puzzle gap between South America/Africa/Arabia and Australia/Antarctica. This southern continent is called Gondwana by Geologists. Imagine this gigantic Gondwana continent covered with an ice sheet that at its maximum extended from the South Pole across an area equivalent to all of Antarctica, Southern Australia, India, Madagascar, south & east Africa and southern South America combined. This continental icecap existed throughout the Carboniferous period. The modern world’s single polar ice continent of Antarctica is puny in size compared to this ice monster.
Victorian geologists were very interested in the Carboniferous period; the coal won from these rocks powered their industrial world. Studies of the Carboniferous strata in north Yorkshire demonstrated the existence of Cyclothems, repeated patterns of marine sedimentation that start with a coal seam, the remains of an equatorial forest being drowned and then often overlain by marine limestone. The limestones were then in turn overlain by river delta sediments as the coast moved seaward and the shallow sea retreated. Eventually the swamp forests regrew and another coal seam was created. The Victorians recognised that this rhythmic depositional cycle seen in the Yoredale deposits of Yorkshire was controlled by eustatic sea level change. That is global sea level variations controlled by the waxing and waning of a major continental icecap. We now know that the icecap responsible for the Carboniferous cyclothems was located on the Gondwana continent.
So the deep oceans of the Carboniferous world were filled with cold oxygenated seawater created by the katabatic winds of the Gondwana icecap, just like those from the modern world’s Antarctica? Well no actually the deep ocean of the Carboniferous world was anoxic just like the later Cretaceous ocean. Again thanks to the Victorian geologists who studied the Culm deposits of Devon they recognised that the Carboniferous Culm contained radiolarian chert, pseudomorphs of calcite and abundant organic carbon. They concluded correctly that Culm was a deep ocean deposit, and although they did not recognise the true size of the ocean they were studying, we know because of their work, that the muds were bathyal sediments deposited below the carbonate compensation depth far from land. The carbon content of Culm proves that the Carboniferous world ocean was anoxic and that abundant marine sapropel was created and deposited in Carboniferous marine sediments which now form part of the oil and gas shale resource which supplies the hydrocarbon fuel used to power our modern industry and commerce.
So how can we resolve this paradox of the Carboniferous with its simultaneous continental icecap of Gondwana and an anoxia prone global ocean? In Geology, the present is often the key to the past, and we have a key to unlock this conundrum. That key is the modern Red Sea.
The Red Sea is situated in the northern hemisphere tropics between Africa and Arabia. Under modern climatic conditions, located beneath the Hadley Cell, the Red Sea experiences high insolation, high evaporation and low fresh water input. These features combine to produce a Red Sea marine bottom water with the highest temperature (21.7C) and salinity (40.6 psu) in the modern world, even with its current low carbon dioxide atmospheric conditions.
Although the outflow volume of Red Sea high temperature bottom water into the Indian Ocean does not impact the modern deep water temperatures of the World Ocean, the key point is that Red Sea deep water produced under a modern tropical climate has a higher density at 1028.579 kg/m3 than any of the cold deep water currently produced in Antarctica by the modern world’s polar climate. For example Antarctic Bottom Water has a minimum temperature of -0.8C, a peak salinity of 34.6 psu and a consequent density of 1027.880 kg/m3.
If these two bottom waters, cold oxygenated polar deep water and warm high salinity low-oxygen carrying tropical bottom water, were allowed to meet, the density stratification principle requires that the densest marine water will occupy the deepest part of the ocean. Red Sea bottom water is denser than the coldest water Antarctica can produce. In a straight contest between the Red Sea and the Weddell Sea, the Red Sea wins every time.
So consider now the Carboniferous period with its shallow tropical seas and vast coastal equatorial coal swamps and remember that half of the surface area of our planet is located between 30 degrees North and 30 degrees South. The shallow seas of the tropics are huge solar energy collectors producing warm dense marine brines. Even in the Carboniferous with its gigantic Gondwana icecap the world was warm because in Oceanography marine water salinity trumps marine water temperature every time.
The Carboniferous shows us that with open ocean conditions the natural state of the world’s climate is as follows-
A polar continental icecap that produces cold oxygenated mid-level ocean water. This sea water is less dense and therefore is layered above the warm dense saline and anoxia-prone tropical water of the bathyal ocean depths.
I leave you with this conclusion. The Carboniferous was a warm ocean world, with low gas solubility in the deep sea. This produced an atmosphere suitable for land plants as they had an abundance of carbon dioxide gas to consume. Not for nothing does this period of Earth’s geological history have as its name the Carboniferous and yet in the mid-ocean above the deep abyssal anoxia, the pelagic fish also had an abundance of dissolved oxygen to breathe thanks to the presence of the Gondwana icecap and its coastal latent heat polynya.
This essay proposes that a fundamental tenet of climate science, that the world’s climate can be in one of two separate and distinct modes, either the Icehouse world or the Greenhouse world, is false.
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Is it helicobacter or heliobactor pylori?
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/h-pylori/DS00958
http://www.medisuite.ir/medscape/a1891351-business.html#a1
policycritic sez [October 6, 2013 at 3:56 pm]
“My understanding is that no biological molecule can exist at a temperature higher than the critical temperature of salt water (somewhere around 384 C). The critical temperature of salt water is reached at a depth of 3 to 5 km [1.86 to 3.12 miles], depending on whether you’re in a continental or marine environment.”
Your question is a red herring
We’re not talking about “creation” of hydrocarbons. When organic organisms (plant/animal) die in the ocean, their remains fall to the sea floor where they get covered by sediment and the remains of countless other lifeforms. Over geologic time (millions of years), those dead organic hydrocarbons get buried to sufficient depths that they get cooked by geothermal heat. In the cooking process, long and complex carbohydrate molecules get reduced to smaller and smaller hydrocarbon molecules according to well documented organic-chemical reactions. They turn into things like propane, ethane, methane, and CO2, among others. All of this transmutation occurs inorganically, just as a result of thermal effects on formerly-living organic matter,
It’s not that complex, really
Folks
“Don’t ask a geologist what would they know anyway…” states journalist; AND backed up by a biologist:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/01/bbc-betrayed-values-carter-scorn-ipcc
Of course palaeoclimatology, a branch of geology, is not worth considering. After all it requires observational evidence.
They now are restructuring scientific disciplines.
” churning says:
October 6, 2013 at 2:37 pm
The Red Sea is a long narrow body of water with a relatively tiny discharge point at the Southern end. Its volume is approximately 55,000 cu mi. and with little input the residence time must be quite high. There is a long axial trench which is very deep and no doubt allows the more dense water to accumulate; much of the Red Sea is shallow. My understanding is that the prevailing winds for 6 to 8 months are from the southeast which pushes ocean water into the Red Sea, limiting the discharge. For this reason, the northern end has high salinity (around 41 ppt) while the southern end is more like 36 ppt (average ocean water is 35 ppt). My point is that Mr Mulholland is illustrating a known density concept with an anomalous water body that is less than 0.018% of the ocean volume. My question is what impact does this small body of water have on deep ocean temperatures and where else can this be found in the world? Seems to me that the volume of water around the Antarctic trumps any little impact of the Red Sea. Sorry, but while the concept is good, I fail to see any practical application of the Red Sea situation in the grand scheme of deep ocean temperatures.”
The author is using the Red Sea as an example of what mechanisms could have dominated in ages when the tropical coastline was much larger than it is now, and the arctic coastline smaller. In fact, the whole point is that the Red Sea isn’t now contributing enough to offset the Antarctic contribution.
I think one of the answers to your question about Gondwana glaciers is that they grew so large at various times that they eventually pushed the land below sea level. The ocean came in, undermined the glaciers and melted them out.
So we have repeated periods of sea level decline, then sea level increase in this time period. The Carboniferous forests of North America and Europe which were at the Equator at the time (and which were repeatedly burned down every few years by the extensive forest fires created by the very high oxygen content of the atmosphere), were then buried by the sea level increase / marine sediments and we get lots of lots of coal in North America and Europe.
This impact is rarely discussed. Continental ice sheets can get so large than the depress the continental land below sea level and eventually the ocean melts them out. Ice Sheets grow on land and they do not last very long at sea level or build up on the ocean.
Today, we have Hudson Bay, which has been pushed down by the repeated glaciation over the last 2.7 million years. It would take about 250,000 years of no glaciation for Hudson Bay to rise back up to normal, above sea level heights. The Baltic Sea, the extensive continental shelf north of Europe and Asia are also examples.
Gondwana didn’t always have glaciers. They came and left through this process, and CO2 stayed low throughout the period.
cd says:
October 6, 2013 at 4:49 pm
Paleoclimatology as practiced by climate scientists will never become part of geology.
idreaminlieuofthinking babbles: “…There were no humans cuttiing down these trees, so CO2 fell…”
Another warmist who hasn’t heard of lightning fires.
churning says: “The Red Sea is a long narrow body of water…what impact does this small body of water have on deep ocean temperatures and where else can this be found in the world?”
It’s an example showing how densities higher than ice water can exist. Just read the post: “…the key point is that Red Sea deep water produced under a modern tropical climate has a higher density at 1028.579 kg/m3 than any of the cold deep water currently produced in Antarctica by the modern world’s polar climate. “
TONGUE FIRMLY IN CHEEK – Playing the ball vs playing the man vs being a spectator: As this beer swilling spectator evaluates a metric-football (soccer) team playing the metric-ball (soccer ball) on the metric-football field (soccer field), one might take a passing interest in the metric-player who runs hither and to across the grass: hot wife like Posh Spice? previous London area teams played on (e.g. Her Majesty’s Geo Survey? BP? ENI? BP again? Statoil?)? Schools where he played metric-football before turning pro, maybe picking up some eco-greenie sounding education; however, in metric land those eco-greenie degrees might be far more rigorous than in the former colony. In any case, it is clear that the metric-football player is still quite annoyed that Her Majesty’s subject Scott was beaten to the South Pole by a descendent of those uncouth Vikings. Suppose the angst would be far worse if a Frenchy had beaten Scott to the South Pole. As it is those Frenchies invented the metric system!!! I would include the link to the presumptive LinkedIn profile to support my tongue firmly in cheek missive about this obviously skilled player, balls and the like; however, there are _REAL_ football games on the television now, not this touchy feellllllllly metric-football crap (insult against metric-football sent forth in the finest traditions of anglospheric beer drinking sports rivalry, moderated in the presence of our better halves so as to not to come to actual blows; although there might be spilled beer, burping, belching and the like). Search engine used to research the possible metric-football player? Bing of course :-):-):-)
churning ,i believe the reference to the red sea by Mr Mulholland was in relation to the situation in the period he described,and not in relation to present day.
the prevailing winds you describe do indeed create a north south density differential in the red sea,with the denser water from the north sinking below less dense water entering from the south.despite the high rate of evaporation (which creates the higher salinity ,dense water in the northern end which is taken to the deeps by the circulatory pattern) ,the net inflow during the time of prevalent wind pushing less dense ocean water into the red sea is greater than the loss through evaporation,so there is a reciprocating current,or undertow returning water back to the point of entry of the wind driven water.
the estimated time for a complete renewal of all the water in the red sea is approximately 20 years,that may be more or less than you imagined, so although it appears there is a net inflow due to narrow entry and exit routes coupled with a wind prevalent from one direction,the circulatory pattern and evaporation ensures there is a balance.if not,it would either dry up,or continually deepen.
@policycritic 3:56 pm
.. no biological molecule can exist at a temperature higher than the critical temperature of salt water (somewhere around 384 C).
We’ve .
covered this last month. There are many organic compounds that are stable at higher temperatures. Oil and gas wells all work at lower temps.
The critical temperature of salt water is reached at a depth of 3 to 5 km [1.86 to 3.12 miles], depending on whether you’re in a continental or marine environment.
Much deeper than that.
Near convergent zones and deep sedimentary basins, it is a slower gradient. It is faster near spreading zones and volcanic areas.
The deepest oil well in the US is Tiber in the deep water Gulf of Mexico at 35,055 feet, 31,000 feet below the mudline.
Mrs Dai Bread Two is looking into a crystal ball which she holds in the lap of
her dirty yellow petticoat, hard against her hard dark thighs. …
…
MRS DAI BREAD TWO : I can’t see any more. There’s great clouds blowing again.
MRS DAI BREAD ONE: Ach, the mean old clouds!
(Dylan Thomas, Under Milk Wood )
Oops! Wrong thread.
There isn’t a lot of carbon in the ‘Carboniferous’ in Australia, unlike in the northern hemisphere.
We had to wait until the Permian for abundant coal deposits. In the Carboniferous though we do have impressive glacial deposits, consistent with the vast ice sheets at the time, but little carbon. Too cold and covered in ice was Australia then I think.
During the Permian things began to change, abundant coals and warmer. And interestingly, right at the end of the Permian, widespread redbeds and a distinct ‘coal gap’ associated with the P/T mass extinction event. The organisms forming coal apparently all died out and there is no coal for about 10 million years after the mass extinction, and then the coals that formed ~10 million years later had to wait for evolution to catch up with coal formation again, and when it did, the coals are different-apparently formed from a different suite of organisms.
@Stephen Fisher Rasey
But not entirely, right? Uranus has methane in its atmosphere, and aren’t there traces of it on Jupiter and Saturn?
[Sorry, I didn’t see your August 2013 response to me, probably because I forgot the name of the thread I posted in. I don’t use the follow-up via email thing, or it would ruin my life. I do] go back and look for responses if I’ve asked a question, but sometimes I miss them.]
How can that be uniform all the way down? Temperature increases with depth. Both these wikipedia sites give different depths for the supercritical state of water: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_water and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrothermal_vent
I guess my point is, why aren’t the Russians right about abiotic? They’ve certainly produced enough literature about it, of which these are a few.
phe.rockefeller.edu/docs/Energy/Mendeleev/References.doc
I grew up near the Oil Sands (sort of). That stuff oozes out of the ground. It’s naturally occurring in the clear Athabasca River 200 miles upstream of Fort McMurray because it oozes out of the banks of the river. This stuff is bubbling up from deep within the earth, and some geologists up there said it was the enormous pressure of the formation of the Rockies that did it. Mother Nature’s Oil Spill. Yet, go two hours south and they point to the Devonian age Badlands and claimed (when I was a kid) that it was all fossils.
Not if CO2’s absorption bands are nearly saturated and the IPCC’s hypothesized net positive feedbacks are overestimated.
Bill James, hero of the statistical analysis of baseball, was (is?) a night watchman at a pork-and-beans factory.
Churning: The Red Sea is a weak modern stand in for the great shallow seas that were between the Appalachian Mountains and the Rockies and in other places throughout the world during this time frame. (Being an American and not a professional geologist, I didn’t look too hard at the fine details of the rest of the world – I know bad me!) There are many reconstructions of the land masses available on line if you do a little searching, and you will see on one of those recreations that the oceans (particularly the tropical oceans) were predominated by very shallow seas. When perhaps a third of the ocean surface area is on seas that have only a couple of hundred meters of depth, the situation of WARM SALTY DENSE water on the bottom of the world oceans is not just possible, but almost required.
@Stephen Fisher Rasey,
The Rockies (Jasper National Park, specifically) are the headwater for the Athabasca. This is what the lakes look like on sunny days from the calcium carbonate (CaCO3) in the water. One lake, can’t remember name, empties every year then fills up with this CaCO3 water from below. Spirit Lake (showing you because it’s so beautiful): http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02647/iStock_00001355465_2647747f.jpg
Phillip, Many thanks for a delightful geological insight (extremely well put for those of less geological background). I cannot believe I interpreted that 1974 Coal Measures field section so wrongly, attributing the Carboniferous cycles to repeated building out and then inundation of pro-grading swampy river deltas, laid down upon a progressively subsiding sea floor! Even then there was a niggling doubt in my mind as to how and why the rate of subsidence appeared to have repeatedly slowed and accelerated over so many similar cycles. Subsidence on a sticky fault plane perhaps, I wondered at the time..? But now you have a far more satisfying explanation.
And, um, RM3: where I come from, they frequently ignore the ball and the man completely, and play the spectator..
Very nice read and a compelling picture. I know you were using the Red Sea as a modern example of much larger solar-heated hot brine development in the Carboniferous that appears to have operated. However, specifically the Red Sea is an active spreading fracture that hosts considerable sea floor volcanism and hot black “smokers” issuing from fractures and depositing base and precious metal deposits on the sea floor. This is hot water indeed and I would suggest that the Red Sea may not be the perfect example of a solar-heated body of water.
This in a mining site:
“The Red Sea Alternative:
At a depth of about 2,000 meters (>6,000 feet) there are pools of mineral laden hot brines possessing enough density so that they pour like syrup, and don’t readily mix with the surrounding water. At the ocean floor below the hot brine is a thick layer of metal salts that look like a heavy black grease. It has been estimated that there is perhaps as much as $250 billion worth of metals that could be recovered from this resource not including any Black Smokers found on the seafloor nearby.”
http://mqp-geotek.blogspot.ca/2010/12/black-smokers-and-red-sea-alternative.html
Thanks for a beautifully written and informative essay. I’d never have imagined the greater importance of Antarctica in terms of oxygenating deep ocean waters. What role (if any) is played by Hudson’s Bay in global oceanic circulation?
Bill Illis says:
October 6, 2013 at 4:56 pm
“I think one of the answers to your question about Gondwana glaciers is that they grew so large at various times that they eventually pushed the land below sea level. The ocean came in, undermined the glaciers and melted them out.”
..giving the rhythmic bedding of coal and sea deposits as this mechanism seesawed back and forth. Bill, you can always be counted on to give an interesting take on things.
Great essay although the IPCC is very dense and it doesn’t trump anything.
IMO this essay is trenchant & helped me understand better the Carboniferous/Permian world, for which I am grateful to its author. However I feel that the terms “icehouse” & “hothouse” are still useful, if only as shorthand for worlds in which extensive glaciers & sea ice exist or not. I agree that they don’t necessarily imply the same suite of other global conditions.
Icehouses of various lengths do seem to occur at very roughly 150 million year intervals, for which Shaviv, et al have proposed IMO compelling if not convincing cosmoclimatological explanations.
Assessing reasons why the Jurassic/Cretaceous icehouse was so puny could be instructive.
churning says:
Starting sentences with “Sorry, but…” is more than a little paternalistic and rude – though I have done it myself. But only AFTER having read the article concerned and forming a very poor opinion of it. But “churning” here obviously left out the critical step of bothering to read the material he is ridiculing, which makes “churning” the one worthy of ridicule in this instance.