Open thread weekend

I have an important project to finish this weekend, so I’ll be offline much of the weekend.

Here’s some pictures of what I’m up to.

BTW global warming and CO2 reduction did not figure into my decision to do this again (we downsized our original home that I first put solar on) one bit. The economics and out of control regulations that will make electricity prices “necessarily skyrocket” starting this fall were the main impetus.

Details next week, along with instructions how how you can get one easily and put your own sweat equity into it and save a bundle…and have it paid off quickly and fully own it…unlike those lease programs that require 20 year payoffs…and by that time the company may be gone and the panels fading.

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michaeljmcfadden
July 21, 2012 3:51 pm

Looking forward to the details. At least they’ll be coming from a source that will probably be reporting on it accurately!
🙂
MJM

GlynnMhor
July 21, 2012 3:53 pm

Up here above 50 degrees latitude it becomes less practical, since our heaviest usage occurs during the winter.

July 21, 2012 3:56 pm

It may be good for air conditioning. Not much else with no huge, expensive & inefficient battery packs.
However, natural gas powered air conditioning might still be cheaper to install & run (fuel costs & maintenance included).

July 21, 2012 4:01 pm

California’s multi-tier power prices certainly makes residential solar PV more attractive financially.

Truthseeker
July 21, 2012 4:06 pm

I am all for people generating their own power for their own use.
I do object to having to pay for other people’s choices through taxpayer subsidies (which is true in Australia, don’t know about the US).
I also object to having inconsistently phased power being put into our clean and even phased power grid (also true in Australia and again I don’t know what the deal is in the US).
So, once you put finish putting this in, how often are you planning to get up onto the roof to clean the panels? You are going to have to do it regularly to keep the efficiency up. Rain is not going to do it for you.
I guess it does not hail very often where you live. Mind you it only has to do it once every five years or so and you investment is looking a little, shall we say, fragile …
Be safe working on the roof and using ladders.

MattB
July 21, 2012 4:08 pm

That’s one of the things I have considered doing for some time too, though here in Omaha I need to take winter snow and hail from thunderstorms into the equation. I would think it should tend to keep the attic space cooler as well since the light would not reach the shingles to bake them in the first place, which in and of itself would lend itself to a cooler house and lower utility bills. I have been considering a solar powered attic fan as well.

Editor
July 21, 2012 4:08 pm

Hmm, I had some topic that I thought would be good for discussing on an open thread weekend.
Possibly the status of get-out-of RGGI proposals if you live in a RGGI state.
I recently updated my RGGIWatch page at http://wermenh.com/rggiwatch/index.html .
A couple highlights:
Jun 26: Gov. Lynch allow NH’s restructuring of its involvement to become law without his signature. While NH stays in RGGI, it’s mostly defanged, and if some other states pull out, that may trigger NH’s withdrawal too.
Jun 8: The results from RGGI Auction 16, held on Jun 6, have been released. 57% of the current control period allowances sold at the floor price of $1.93. 5% of the allowance went to non-compliance entities. It’s hard to understand how they expect to make any money in this control period, perhaps other vehicles like or money market or municipal bonds are paying so little that CO2 allowances are worth speculating on.
June 12: A New York lawsuit to pull New York out of RGGI was dismissed due in part “The court held that plaintiffs lacked standing to bring the lawsuit because they did not suffer a distinct injury. It also ruled that plaintiffs’ claims would have been barred (regardless of their lack of standing) based on their failure to bring a timely challenge.” A pity, as NY’s participation is not a matter of state law.
A bill has been introduced that likely won’t pass, but would ban such arrangements and take NY out.
New Jersey is still out, and efforts to get them back look doomed to failure.
If anyone knows of other efforts I’ve missed, please let me know.

July 21, 2012 4:09 pm

Its important when someone lives their convictions.

PMH
July 21, 2012 4:20 pm

Care to share some technical numbers (hrs of sunshine, KW, etc.)?
Did they say how often you will need to clean bird poo off of the panels?

kim
July 21, 2012 4:20 pm

Brave skeptic, Alexander Cockburn, has died.
==========

Nerd
July 21, 2012 4:29 pm

Cool. I look forward to your blog over it next week. It’s something I am also considering for the new house I’m building in central Texas. The high cost of electricity in the future is something I am very concerned about if the federal gov’t continue to push Obama’s wishes. Who knows what Romney will do if he wins?
There’s something I am concerned… what about rolling blackouts? I’m just wondering how both solar panels and blackouts work together. I did another round of researching on the latest stuff on solar panel technology to see how much they have improved over the past few years. My concern is that I may not have enough roof space facing right direction for maximum exposure and I was looking for highest efficiency possible but I do not wish to go bankrupt by paying for it for long term when someone makes a breakthrough in efficiency after a few years. Much like we saw with computers…

July 21, 2012 4:33 pm
July 21, 2012 4:37 pm

It seems solar panels are built to withstand hail of a size that will break normal clay roof tiles.
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1399031

July 21, 2012 4:38 pm

One point we want to make, as it seems to be the case, it that those that are pushing the AGW scam today are primarily extreme leftists. Steven Goddard did a post talking about the leftist congressman Ed Markey making a big squawk about climate change. My comment:
The National Journal gave Ed Markey a Composite Liberal score in the mid-nineties, close to the most left wing congressman in the country. Chuck Slowe put it this way:

Markey is a blatantly liberal ideologue. As he rides around in his gas guzzling super-sized SUV, he disdains that the regular, man on the street has the audacity to be driving on the same roadways…
He loves to think of himself as a thoughtfully learned man, in all matters pertaining to the world. Unfortunately, Markey is a typical blowhard of the political left. He is also an alarmist with his sites set on crippling the country’s economy in typical Obama fashion. As long as we continue to send such idiots back to Capitol Hill, we will continue to have the same level of insanity heaped upon us in the form of higher taxes, bigger government and a far less responsive bureaucracy.

It seems that the only ones now that are making a lot of noise about AGW theory are these wacko leftists like Markey. If the warmists want to gain some needed credibility, why not try to get some mainstream types to stand up for their cause? Try to avoid always relying on these extreme leftists to make their case.

Dan in California
July 21, 2012 4:45 pm

PMH says: July 21, 2012 at 4:20 pm
Care to share some technical numbers (hrs of sunshine, KW, etc.)?
—————————————————————————————
Here’s a link to a US national map showing energy produced and utility bill savings estimate for various locations and various types of solar panels:
http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/calculators/PVWATTS/version1/

Alvin
July 21, 2012 4:49 pm

Here’s a question for you Anthony: Are you applying for the federal and state tax rebates and subsudies?

u.k.(us)
July 21, 2012 4:50 pm

It will be interesting to see the “energy” flow.

Dan in California
July 21, 2012 5:01 pm

Nerd says: July 21, 2012 at 4:29 pm
There’s something I am concerned… what about rolling blackouts? I’m just wondering how both solar panels and blackouts work together
——————————————————————-
They work together perfectly. When the grid goes down, your PV array goes offline too. You get no power from either. Grid tie inverters are required to poll the grid and disconnect. This is for the safety of the lineman who goes to fix the problem. They don’t want to worry about non-utility sources energizing a supposed dead line.
If you want backup power during a blackout, you need battery storage, you need to switch the PV array from grid tie to battery charging, and you need a separate inverter designed to run off grid. I personally have just enough of that to run my refrigerator. Costs more than a gasoline powered generator. Here’s a link to a company that sells the stuff and has good explanations on what to buy.
http://www.windsun.com/

July 21, 2012 5:02 pm

What’s your point, Alvin? Turning down free, legal money would be pretty stupid, no?

Bill D
July 21, 2012 5:31 pm

Have you considered lowering the load with LED?

Power Engineer
July 21, 2012 5:40 pm

The cost of solar pv is about 40 cents per kWh. It saves about 3 cents per kWh worth of natural gas ($4 gas at 7000 heat rate = 2.8 cents/kWh) and adds significantly to grid operations costs. The difference between 40 and 3 is 37 cents /kWh which is all subsidy.
If all our electricity could generated by solar PV the cost increase would be over a trillion $ per year or a subprime crisis and a half every year.
Of course due to its variability Solar could never generate all our electricity.
The latest solar snafu is that clouds could decrease solar output 50 percent in 30 seconds which is much faster than the 10 minute spinning reserve that most systems are designed to. More unaccounted costs to integrate large scale solar.

pat
July 21, 2012 5:53 pm

the Carbon Comedy continues:
20 July: Reuters Point Carbon: Kathy Chen and Stian Reklev: China keen to avoid CO2 rollercoaster ride
European permits have lost 80 percent of their value since mid-2008 and 50 percent in the last twelve months, spurring claims that the carbon market is becoming irrelevant in the EU’s efforts to cut emissions.
“China will consider introducing both a price ceiling and a price floor to prevent the dramatic price fluctuation seen in the EU ETS,” said Chen Jianpeng with the State Council’s Development Research Centre, which is involved in studying the impact of a future Chinese ETS.
China, which accounts for almost a third of global CO2 emissions, plans to use the experiences from its pilot schemes to set up a national CO2 market later this decade.
The Beijing municipal government, which will host one of China’s seven pilot schemes from 2013 or 2014, plans to implement a price floor and ceiling in the capital’s CO2 market…
Tax evasion, theft of permits and re-usage of credits have also damaged the reputation of the world’s biggest carbon market.
China, which is generally skeptical about financial markets, is planning to keep its CO2 scheme under tight control.
After state-owned power company China Aviation Oil lost $550 million on speculating in oil futures in 2004, Beijing has ruled out forward markets in all but a handful of commodities.
Emissions trading will take place on government-approved exchanges, and recently announced regulations by the State Council means only spot trading with a five-day delay on delivery will be allowed.
***(LOL) Some observers said it would be beneficial to keep the market simple, at least initially, as Chinese compliance traders lack experience in emissions markets.
“The market is not ready to have carbon derivatives, green bonds and green funds in the pilot phase,” said Shi Minjun, deputy director at the China Academy of Science’s Research Center on Fictitious Economy and Data Science.
But other observers were doubtful whether an emissions market could be effective if it did not provide a forward price, because companies would lack the information they need to make future investment decisions…
http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/07/20/us-china-carbon-trade-idINBRE86J0BA20120720
——————————————————————————–

pat
July 21, 2012 6:12 pm

LOL:
22 July: Guardian: Carbon course
Grab some counters, a die and your family or friends, and move along the footprint path. Start with three carbon feet points each. Whoever reaches the end with the least carbon points wins
http://www.guardian.co.uk/hp-making-a-difference/graphic/carbon-course-game-hp-lorax?newsfeed=true

LazyTeenager
July 21, 2012 6:58 pm

Eric Simpson says:
July 21, 2012 at 4:38 pm
One point we want to make, as it seems to be the case, it that those that are pushing the AGW scam today are primarily extreme leftists.
—————-
You’re in a fish bowl talking to other fish. And the fish often end up talking to their own reflections in the glass. And the refraction distorts their view of the outside world. You need to get out more.

Justthinkin
July 21, 2012 7:04 pm

Very nice,Anthony.Just a few points/questions.How will this work above the 50th?I think 3 feet of snow would tend to dampen the generation of power,when we need it the most.
There is no way a solar panel can withstand the impact of hail,moving at 120 mph(yeah,that’s the average up here in Canada).How much power is generated with the sun only at an optimum angle for three hours a day,on average?
I’m all for new means of getting and maintaining power,but reality rears its ugly head in northern climes.As asked above,do you want to spend most of your daylight hours cleaning those panels? Dust,grime and soot occur 24/7.Me? I’ll stick with my 3 cords of wood and BBQing at -40.Besides,extra blankets and a warm body next to you works wonders.:):)

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