
Note: This will be the top post for a day or two, new posts will appear below this one.
Readers may recall my original post, Nature’s ugly decision: ‘Deniers’ enters the scientific literature. followed by Dr. Paul Bain Responds to Critics of Use of “Denier” Term (with thanks to Jo Nova, be sure to bookmark and visit her site) Dr. Robert G. Brown of Duke University, commenting as rgbatduke, made a response that was commented on by several here in that thread. As commenter REP put it in the update: It is eloquent, insightful and worthy of consideration. I would say, it is likely the best response I’ve ever seen on the use of the “denier” term, not to mention the CAGW issue in general. Thus, I’ve elevated it a full post. Please share the link to this post widely. – Anthony
Dr. Robert G. Brown writes:
The tragic thing about the thoughtless use of a stereotype (denier) is that it reveals that you really think of people in terms of its projected meaning. In particular, even in your response you seem to equate the term “skeptic” with “denier of AGW”.
This is silly. On WUWT most of the skeptics do not “deny” AGW, certainly not the scientists or professional weather people (I myself am a physicist) and honestly, most of the non-scientist skeptics have learned better than that. What they challenge is the catastrophic label and the alleged magnitude of the projected warming on a doubling of CO_2. They challenge this on rather solid empirical grounds and with physical arguments and data analysis that is every bit as scientifically valid as that used to support larger estimates, often obtaining numbers that are in better agreement with observation. For this honest doubt and skepticism that the highly complex global climate models are correct you have the temerity to socially stigmatize them in a scientific journal with a catch-all term that implies that they are as morally reprehensible as those that “deny” that the Nazi Holocaust of genocide against the Jews?
For shame.
Seriously, for shame. You should openly apologize for the use of the term, in Nature, and explain why it was wrong. But you won’t, will you… although I will try to explain why you should.
By your use of this term, you directly imply that I am a “denier”, as I am highly skeptical of Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Warming (not just “anthropogenic global warming”, which is plausible if not measurable, although there are honest grounds to doubt even this associated with the details of the Carbon Cycle that remain unresolved by model or experiment). Since I am a theoretical physicist, I find this enormously offensive. I might as well label you an idiot for using it, when you’ve never met me, have no idea of my competence or the strength of my arguments for or against any aspect of climate dynamics (because on this list I argue both points of view as the science demands and am just as vigorous in smacking down bullshit physics used to challenge some aspect of CAGW as I am to question the physics or statistical analysis or modelling used to “prove” it). But honestly, you probably aren’t an idiot (are you?) and no useful purpose is served by ad hominem or emotionally loaded human descriptors in a rational discussion of an objective scientific question, is there.
Please understand that by creating a catch-all label like this, you quite literally are moving the entire discussion outside of the realm of science, where evidence and arguments are considered and weighed independent of the humans that advance them, where our desire to see one or another result proven are (or should be) irrelevant, where people weigh the difficulty of the problem being addressed as an important contributor (in a Bayesian sense) to how much we should believe any answer proposed — so far, into the realm where people do not think at all! They simply use a dismissive label such as “denier” and hence avoid any direct confrontation with the issues being challenged.
The issue of difficulty is key. Let me tell you in a few short words why I am a skeptic. First of all, if one examines the complete geological record of global temperature variation on planet Earth (as best as we can reconstruct it) not just over the last 200 years but over the last 25 million years, over the last billion years — one learns that there is absolutely nothing remarkable about today’s temperatures! Seriously. Not one human being on the planet would look at that complete record — or even the complete record of temperatures during the Holocene, or the Pliestocene — and stab down their finger at the present and go “Oh no!”. Quite the contrary. It isn’t the warmest. It isn’t close to the warmest. It isn’t the warmest in the last 2 or 3 thousand years. It isn’t warming the fastest. It isn’t doing anything that can be resolved from the natural statistical variation of the data. Indeed, now that Mann’s utterly fallacious hockey stick reconstruction has been re-reconstructed with the LIA and MWP restored, it isn’t even remarkable in the last thousand years!
Furthermore, examination of this record over the last 5 million years reveals a sobering fact. We are in an ice age, where the Earth spends 80 to 90% of its geological time in the grip of vast ice sheets that cover the polar latitudes well down into what is currently the temperate zone. We are at the (probable) end of the Holocene, the interglacial in which humans emerged all the way from tribal hunter-gatherers to modern civilization. The Earth’s climate is manifestly, empirically bistable, with a warm phase and cold phase, and the cold phase is both more likely and more stable. As a physicist who has extensively studied bistable open systems, this empirical result clearly visible in the data has profound implications. The fact that the LIA was the coldest point in the entire Holocene (which has been systematically cooling from the Holocene Optimum on) is also worrisome. Decades are irrelevant on the scale of these changes. Centuries are barely relevant. We are nowhere near the warmest, but the coldest century in the last 10,000 years ended a mere 300 years ago, and corresponded almost perfectly with the Maunder minimum in solar activity.
There is absolutely no evidence in this historical record of a third stable warm phase that might be associated with a “tipping point” and hence “catastrophe” (in the specific mathematical sense of catastrophe, a first order phase transition to a new stable phase). It has been far warmer in the past without tipping into this phase. If anything, we are geologically approaching the point where the Earth is likely to tip the other way, into the phase that we know is there — the cold phase. A cold phase transition, which the historical record indicates can occur quite rapidly with large secular temperature changes on a decadal time scale, would truly be a catastrophe. Even if “catastrophic” AGW is correct and we do warm another 3 C over the next century, if it stabilized the Earth in warm phase and prevented or delayed the Earth’s transition into cold phase it would be worth it because the cold phase transition would kill billions of people, quite rapidly, as crops failed throughout the temperate breadbasket of the world.
Now let us try to analyze the modern era bearing in mind the evidence of an utterly unremarkable present. To begin with, we need a model that predicts the swings of glaciation and interglacials. Lacking this, we cannot predict the temperature that we should have outside for any given baseline concentration of CO_2, nor can we resolve variations in this baseline due to things other than CO_2 from that due to CO_2. We don’t have any such thing. We don’t have anything close to this. We cannot predict, or explain after the fact, the huge (by comparison with the present) secular variations in temperature observed over the last 20,000 years, let alone the last 5 million or 25 million or billion. We do not understand the forces that set the baseline “thermostat” for the Earth before any modulation due to anthropogenic CO_2, and hence we have no idea if those forces are naturally warming or cooling the Earth as a trend that has to be accounted for before assigning the “anthropogenic” component of any warming.
This is a hard problem. Not settled science, not well understood, not understood. There are theories and models (and as a theorist, I just love to tell stories) but there aren’t any particularly successful theories or models and there is a lot of competition between the stories (none of which agree with or predict the empirical data particularly well, at best agreeing with some gross features but not others). One part of the difficulty is that the Earth is a highly multivariate and chaotic driven/open system with complex nonlinear coupling between all of its many drivers, and with anything but a regular surface. If one tried to actually write “the” partial differential equation for the global climate system, it would be a set of coupled Navier-Stokes equations with unbelievably nasty nonlinear coupling terms — if one can actually include the physics of the water and carbon cycles in the N-S equations at all. It is, quite literally, the most difficult problem in mathematical physics we have ever attempted to solve or understand! Global Climate Models are children’s toys in comparison to the actual underlying complexity, especially when (as noted) the major drivers setting the baseline behavior are not well understood or quantitatively available.
The truth of this is revealed in the lack of skill in the GCMs. They utterly failed to predict the last 13 or 14 years of flat to descending global temperatures, for example, although naturally one can go back and tweak parameters and make them fit it now, after the fact. And every year that passes without significant warming should be rigorously lowering the climate sensitivity and projected AGW, making the probability of the “C” increasinginly remote.
These are all (in my opinion) good reasons to be skeptical of the often egregious claims of CAGW. Another reason is the exact opposite of the reason you used “denier” in your article. The actual scientific question has long since been co-opted by the social and political one. The real reason you used the term is revealed even in your response — we all “should” be doing this and that whether or not there is a real risk of “catastrophe”. In particular, we “should” be using less fossil fuel, working to preserve the environment, and so on.
The problem with this “end justifies the means” argument — where the means involved is the abhorrent use of a pejorative descriptor to devalue the arguers of alternative points of view rather than their arguments at the political and social level — is that it is as close to absolute evil in social and public discourse as it is possible to get. I strongly suggest that you read Feynman’s rather famous “Cargo Cult” talk:
http://www.lhup.edu/~DSIMANEK/cargocul.htm
In particular, I quote:
For example, I was a little surprised when I was talking to a
friend who was going to go on the radio. He does work on cosmology and astronomy, and he wondered how he would explain what the applications of this work were. “Well,” I said, “there aren’t any.” He said, “Yes, but then we won’t get support for more research of this kind.” I think that’s kind of dishonest. If you’re representing yourself as a scientist, then you should explain to the layman what you’re doing–and if they don’t want to support you under those circumstances, then that’s their decision.
One example of the principle is this: If you’ve made up your mind to test a theory, or you want to explain some idea, you should always decide to publish it whichever way it comes out. If we only publish results of a certain kind, we can make the argument look good. We must publish both kinds of results.
I say that’s also important in giving certain types of government
advice. Supposing a senator asked you for advice about whether
drilling a hole should be done in his state; and you decide it
would be better in some other state. If you don’t publish such a
result, it seems to me you’re not giving scientific advice. You’re
being used. If your answer happens to come out in the direction the government or the politicians like, they can use it as an argument in their favor; if it comes out the other way, they don’t publish it at all. That’s not giving scientific advice.
Time for a bit of soul-searching, Dr. Bain. Have you come even close to living up to the standards laid out by Richard Feynman? Is this sort of honesty apparent anywhere in the global climate debate? Did the “Hockey Team” embrace this sort of honesty in the infamous Climategate emails? Do the IPCC reports ever seem to present the counter arguments, or do they carefully avoid showing pictures of the 20,000 year thermal record, preferring instead Mann’s hockey stick because it increases the alarmism (and hence political impact of the report)? Does the term “denier” have any place in any scientific paper ever published given Feynman’s rather simple criterion for scientific honesty?
And finally, how dare you presume to make choices for me, for my relatives, for my friends, for all of the people of the world, but concealing information from them so that they make a choice to allocate resources the way you think they should be allocated, just like the dishonest astronomer of his example. Yes, the price of honesty might be that people don’t choose to support your work. Tough. It is their money, and their choice!
Sadly, it is all too likely that this is precisely what is at stake in climate research. If there is no threat of catastrophe — and as I said, prior to the hockey stick nobody had the slightest bit of luck convincing anyone that the sky was falling because global climate today is geologically unremarkable in every single way except that we happen to be living in it instead of analyzing it in a geological record — then there is little incentive to fund the enormous amount of work being done on climate science. There is even less incentive to spend trillions of dollars of other people’s money (and some of our own) to ameliorate a “threat” that might well be pure moonshine, quite possibly ignoring an even greater threat of movement in the exact opposite direction to the one the IPCC anticipates.
Why am I a skeptic? Because I recognize the true degree of our ignorance in addressing this supremely difficult problem, while at the same time as a mere citizen I weigh civilization and its benefits against draconian energy austerity on the basis of no actual evidence that global climate is in any way behaving unusually on a geological time scale.
For shame.
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You captured my sentiments exactly and more eloquently than I could have ever attempted. The CAGW theorist forget one thing. It is their responsibility to prove their hypothesis with convincing empirical data. In keeping with long-held scientific protocols, is is perfectly OK for me to remain a skeptic until they prove their hypothesis. So far, as I examine all the available data, the empirical evidence is stacked up high against their CAGW hypothesis.
Thank you. I am printing it out and sending it to my Member of Parliament and our Beloved Energy Secretary.
As observations and detailed science analysis of satellite data do not support the extreme AGW paradigm (See my comments above for details.), the extreme AGW team no longer want the discussion to be based on science, logic, or facts.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204301404577171531838421366.html
There’s no compelling scientific argument for drastic action to ‘decarbonize’ the world’s economy.
In spite of a multidecade international campaign to enforce the message that increasing amounts of the “pollutant” carbon dioxide will destroy civilization, large numbers of scientists, many very prominent, share the opinions of Dr. Giaever. And the number of scientific “heretics” is growing with each passing year. The reason is a collection of stubborn scientific facts.
Perhaps the most inconvenient fact is the lack of global warming for well over 10 years now. This is known to the warming establishment, as one can see from the 2009 “Climategate” email of climate scientist Kevin Trenberth: “The fact is that we can’t account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can’t.” But the warming is only missing if one believes computer models where so-called feedbacks involving water vapor and clouds greatly amplify the small effect of CO2.
The lack of warming for more than a decade—indeed, the smaller-than-predicted warming over the 22 years since the U.N.’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) began issuing projections—suggests that computer models have greatly exaggerated how much warming additional CO2 can cause. Faced with this embarrassment, those promoting alarm have shifted their drumbeat from warming to weather extremes, to enable anything unusual that happens in our chaotic climate to be ascribed to CO2….
….The fact is that CO2 is not a pollutant. CO2 is a colorless and odorless gas, exhaled at high concentrations by each of us, and a key component of the biosphere’s life cycle. Plants do so much better with more CO2 that greenhouse operators often increase the CO2 concentrations by factors of three or four to get better growth. This is no surprise since plants and animals evolved when CO2 concentrations were about 10 times larger than they are today. Better plant varieties, chemical fertilizers and agricultural management contributed to the great increase in agricultural yields of the past century, but part of the increase almost certainly came from additional CO2 in the atmosphere…
William: As the facts do not support decarbonizing the economy, the extreme AGW group have developed plan B, which is make it up and to call anyone who points out the scam a “denier”.
For example:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/06/mike_hulme_interview/
Back then, he (William: Mike Holm, director of the center associated with many of the climategate memos) was the founding director of the Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, an organisation so revered by environmentalists that it could be mistaken for the academic wing of the green movement. Since leaving Tyndall – and as we found out in a telephone interview – he has come out of the climate change closet as an outspoken critic of such sacred cows as the UN’s IPCC, the “consensus”, the over-emphasis on scientific evidence in political debates about climate change, and to defend the rights of so-called “deniers” to contribute to those debates.
William: The following are quotes from Holme’s book “Why we disagree about Climate Change”. We disagree as the science does not support the extreme warming paradigm. We disagree as trillions of deficit dollars are being allocated for green scams which will not significantly reduce carbon emissions but will bankrupt western countries. We live in a democracy. Enough is enough.
“The idea of climate change should be seen as an intellectual resource around which our collective and personal identities and projects can form and take shape. We need to ask not what we can do for climate change, but to ask what climate change can do for us.”
Because the idea of climate change is so plastic, it can be deployed across…
We will continue to create and tell new stories about climate change and mobilize them to support our projects.
These myths transcend the scientific categories of “true”and “false”.
François Marchand says: June 23, 2012 at 6:40 am
Mr. Brown writes about the last 13 or 14 years of flat global temperature. According to GISTemp’s land-sea surface records, all the highest monthly temperature anomalies have occurred since 1998, nine of them since 2005. Does he deny that record? Does he deny the satellite record, which more or less agrees?
=================================================
I don’t have global records but I do have 3 lists of the record temperatures for Columbus Ohio that I got form the NWS. I got them in 2007, 2009, and 2012. Odd things in those records. For example, in the 2012 list the record high for Feb. 4 was 61 set in 1962 and tied in 1991. Yet in the 2007 list the record high was 66 set in 1946.
The 2012 list has the record high for May 16 as 91 set in 1900. The 2007 list also has it set in 1900 but it was 96.
The 2012 list has the record high for July 31 as 100 set in 1999. The 2007 list has the record as 96 set in 1954.
These changes were made to the records of just one little spot on the globe. What other changes have been made to past records?
“Warming fears are the worst scientific scandal in history… When people come to know what the truth is, they will feel deceived by science and scientists.”
Dr. Kiminori Itoh, PhD
UN IPCC Japanese Scientist
award-winning environmental physical chemist
(Thanks for the quotes, wayne.)
Well said, mr Brown. I give you accolades for that. Rgrds. Henry
BRAVO Dr. Brown!
Robert Brown says:
June 22, 2012 at 9:37 pm
Perhaps I’m a Pollyanna, but I think that those risks are highly exaggerated. Besides, if I get fired I’ll just have to make money instead. Since I’ve got a startup company going that I really should be working on full time, the end result would probably be to force me to get rich quicker (assuming I’m lucky enough to succeed). And in the meantime — what is the virtue of my words if I do not speak them in my own name? Do you think I’m ashamed of them, or fearful? They are my honest beliefs, and I think that they are not entirely without foundation (which is why I articulate them).
Well said! That’s the benefit of living in a free country, is not it? Fight for it, everybody, to keep it that way.
During the last two decades of communist rule here even in cases of manifest misbehavior like this, there was no chance to have a black car coming for you at dawn with grave men carrying submachine guns and wearing leather jackets, take you into a dark basement, push a glass tube up to your urethra, hit it with a hammer, shoot you in the nape, putting the body into the grinder and let it leak down the drain. No chance, really, that was the past.
But you would have immediately lost your job, with HR departments of state owned companies or institutions notified of your status, passport withdrawn. As there was no privately owned alternative, no matter how badly you needed a decent job to make a living, none was offered. Finally you could well end up sweeping the backyard of a dirty factory day by day. The luckiest ones were employed as librarians, not in the front office of course, where they could have a chance to meet people, but they could help moving books between shelves in a store.
But some were still neither ashamed nor fearful to express their honest beliefs, albeit only privately, never in a public context any more. That’s how lack of freedom feels like.
I read everything on this blog and I am humbled by the knowledge and sincerity of all the contributors and Anthony should be proud to be able to attract so many talented and interesting individuals to his site. I was a modestly successful small business person but I feel so inadequate when I come here. If I had to choose which entry caught my attention most it was Roger Sowell warning that what we should fear the most is global cooling not all this hysteria about a non-problem. Warm is better than cold everytime.
davidmhoffer said (after something of a rant) “Head the past [sic], or repeat it.”
Sorry davidmhoffer, but you can’t prevent the alarmists using “denier” if that’s what they want to do. In the USA they have First Amendment rights; in the UK it will take primary legislation which is not going to happen under our coalition government – who anyway seem more concerned with kids in school playgrounds throwing “you’re fat” insults at one another, would you believe.
The only way to beat this is by developing the science so as to truly understand the climate processes at work (rather than just modelling them), thereby showing who is right and who is wrong on CAGW theory. That’s why I said in (my first post above) “Wouldn’t it be better just to ignore the silly labels and get on with the mission?” – railing about the “d-word” really serves no useful purpose (excepting supposedly balanced scientific journals), but just gets everybody further wound up.
“””””…..TimC says:
June 23, 2012 at 7:21 am
Robert Brown said: “No good soap box goes unwasted, eh? Bear in mind that this was written as an in-thread comment in an ongoing discussion.” Point taken – and I hope we are very much in agreement that “human disagreement … is [all] part of the fun!”
With that thought in mind did you not actually mean to say “… the shadows we see in the clouds are real feedbacks? :-)…..”””””
Without checking back to see exactly what Professor Brown had in mind, saying that Tim, surely the truth of that statement is trivially apparent to anyone, who actually has an understanding of what feedback really is.
A feedback system processes an INPUT “signal” through some “transfer function” to produce an OUTPUT “response”, which most commonly is an amplified or enhanced effect; a portion of the output response further processed by a FEEDBACK function, is then applied (at some later time) to the INPUT, where it modifies the INPUT to the system and thereby changes the final result.
In the climate system, the INPUT is EM radiation energy from the sun applied at the TSI power rate to the earth, and the response is earth’s climate conditions, including it establishing some range of Temperatures over the volume of interest, usually the atmosphere, ocean and surface regions.
So a CLOUD SHADOW, clearly visible on the ground, as a reduction of illumination (by that solar EM energy) immediately subtracts from the energy input to the surface/oceanic part of the system, which is where the vast majority of the total energy in the form of mostly waste “heat(ing)” is stored, and it shifts that portion of the original input signal (the solar energy) to the atmosphere, and to the “exhaust system” by which excess energy leaves the earth, thereby adding to the escape of thatenergy before it can be stored in the oceans mainly.
So yes the cloud shadows are very much feedback, and in this case, highly negative, in that the net effect of the original input signal (from the sun) is reduced, and reduced more by more cloud, and more cloud shadows.
It’s 4-H club or 8th grade simplicity Tim.
TimC:
You’re boring me. How much is it costing me? 🙂
George E. Smith; says “It’s 4-H club or 8th grade simplicity Tim”.
And it was actually a joke, George (or at least an attempt at one). I had hoped the smiley at the end perhaps avoided the need for “\joke off”.
TimC;
Sorry davidmhoffer, but you can’t prevent the alarmists using “denier” if that’s what they want to do. In the USA they have First Amendment rights;>>>>
Sir, not once did I advocate “preventing” anyone from saying anything, nor did I suggest violating anyone’s freedom of speech or first amendment rights. Your original assertion sir, was that it was simple name calling, and could be safely ignored. It cannot be safely ignored, that is the lesson that history has to teach us, and I have given you specific examples in history when exactly this tactic was used with consequences far worse than name calling. I have provided you with specific examples from the current debate in which alarmist organizations well outside the science community attempted to extend the tactic of dehumanizing their opponents.
I must point out to you that they failed. 350.org withdrew their heinous video because of the public outcry. Greenpeace withdrew their threat of violence because of the public outcry. We can nip these things in the bud by exactly that response. IF they had been allowed to get away with those things, if their hatefilled propoganda had simply been shrugged off, are you so foolish as to believe that the next round would not have been worse?
Dr Bain’s use of the term has been roundly denounced, and his defense is shameful. If he doesn’t wind up withdrawing the egregious words, he will certainly think twice about using that tactic again, as will the journal itself, and all other journals.
Fooling yourself into thinking that words such as Dr Bain’s are just name calling and harmless, is, well, foolish. Fight their words with words of protest. Else it will take more than words to stop them at some point.
“””””…..François Marchand says:
June 23, 2012 at 6:40 am
Mr. Brown writes about the last 13 or 14 years of flat global temperature. According to GISTemp’s land-sea surface records, all the highest monthly temperature anomalies have occurred since 1998, nine of them since 2005. Does he deny that record? Does he deny the satellite record, which more or less agrees?…..”””””
Francois; in the absence of any data supportive or otherwise, I am going to ASSUME that you are an educated person with some reasoning powers; so my comments are more intended to be instructive for those readers who perhaps are less well educated, and perhaps come here to learn. (Ignorance is not a disease; we are all born with it).
So to the premise of your comment; a 13 or 14 ear interval of “flatness” following a rising trend; to which you remark, that the record shows the highest (monthly Temperatures since 1998.
So for those other readers puzzled by your comment, I can state the following:-
When a continuous function on a rising trend approaches and reaches a functional maximum, even a local one, the highest values tend to happen around that maximum, which is how the term maximum got defined in the first place.
Conversely when a continuous function declines and then flattens out at a minimum, some of the lowest values will be found to cluster about the minimum, which is why we call it that.
For example, the highest land altitudes on planet earth, tend to be found up in the mountains, and some of the lowest places on earth tend to be at the bottom of the deepest oceans.
It’s a fairly simple concept really, and I can understand why Professor Brown considered it was hardly worth mentioning; yes we know it has been warm and has stopped warming; it is the likelihood, and extent of a plunge to cooler Temperaturesw, where no doubt we will get a cluster of lowest Temperatures, that we all worry about.
Dr. Brown, you may find these remarks by James Lovelock, the godfather of global warming, interesting:
As he puts it, “so-called ‘sustainable development’ … is meaningless drivel … We rushed into renewable energy without any thought. The schemes are largely hopelessly inefficient and unpleasant. I personally can’t stand windmills at any price.”
(4) Finally, about claims “the science is settled” on global warming: “One thing that being a scientist has taught me is that you can never be certain about anything. You never know the truth. You can only approach it and hope to get a bit nearer to it each time. You iterate towards the truth. You don’t know it.”
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/06/22/green-drivel
The man has totally caved.
This is an outstanding and powerful exposition of the thoughts and conclusions of so many of us, expressed with such eloquence so few can muster.
Luther Wu says:
June 22, 2012 at 5:34 pm
What a task Dr. Bain has; trying to placate his agenda- driven funding sources while appearing to maintain some semblance of ethical scientific standards.
He’s like a moonshiner hung up astraddle a barbed- wire fence with raging bulls on one side and revenuers on the other and sorely threatened by the fence.
________________________________
With that barbed wire fence hooked to an electric fence charger, solar powered of course. (I have a vivid visual imagination esp. after having dealt with wire fences…. )
I pride myself on being a skeptic whether it’s religion, UFO’s, acupuncture or abortion we’re talking about.
So I am reading this page and comments thread with great interest and will spend a few days chasing down all the links.
I ask the following question not in order to debunk the previous comments, but in all sincerity. How does the extreme weather of the past decade fit into this? Floods, hurricanes, melting of polar ice sheets? This needs a good answer because it’s the first challenge that a CAGW supporter is going to throw at you.
LazyTeenager says:
June 22, 2012 at 6:30 pm
For shame.
————–
no actual evidence —– is code for —— I am ignoring the evidence I don’t like.
There is evidence for temperature rises in the geological past of similar rates upward to what we are seeing now. They were extinction events. If civilizations had existed at the time they would have been civilization destroying events.
For shame that you close your eyes whenever evidence appears.
It’s not skepticism. It’s prejudice.
__________________________________
And there is PLENTY OF EVIDENCE FOR A GRADUAL COOLING over the Holocene.
GRAPH: Vostok temp for Holocene
GRAPH: Greenland temp for Holocene
Graph: Volstok temperatures for the last four interglacials
Graph: Temp and CO2 for the last four interglacials (Volstok). Notice how the CO2 was nice and constant during the Eemian but the temperature was not yet in the Holocene the temperature was rather constant compared to the other interglacials but the CO2 was not. A close up Graph: CO2 and temp for Holocene (Greenland) In fact the CO2 is INCREASING throughout the Holocene while the Temperature is gradually DECREASING!
Even Joe Romm over at Climate Progress acknowledges the Milankovitch Cycles
Here are two peer-reviewed papers.
This paper also agrees that we are at the point in the earth’s Milankovitch cycle that ushers in an ice age.
Possibly delayed is more like it. One commenter here who is a Geologist said that while the cycles do not always lift the earth out of an Ice Age they ALWAYS dump it into one. (sorry no link)
Gerry Roe’s 2006 paper In Defense of Milankovitch, Geophysical Research Letters fine tunes the model and get a very good match with the ice core data. See In Defense of Milankovitch by Gerard Roe over at Luboš Motl website for an easy to read article and pointers to the paper.
Even Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution acknowledges Climate Scientist could very well be barking up the wrong tree.
The evidence for long term GLOBAL COOLING is a lot stronger than for CAGW, if anything let’s pray CAGW does exist because a warmer earth beats the C…P out of sitting under miles of ice!
Oh and another point no one has ever bothered to bring up. CO2 levels drop like a rock during glaciation. The levels were low enough that C4 plants evolved to cope with the much lower levels of CO2. If the CO2 levels during the next glaciation or two drop below the critical threshold for plant photosynthesis, most of the carbon based life forms on earth will become extinct. CO2 is not a poison it is absolutely critical for life on this planet.
@oldfossil on June 23, 2012 at 2:04 pm,
Somebody will probably beat me to this, but Anthony has many posts on the non-link between severe weather events and increased global warming. One of those can be found here
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/05/31/stunning-map-of-noaa-data-showing-56-year-of-tornado-tracks-shed-light-on-the-folly-of-linking-global-warming-to-severe-weather/
I suggest you use WUWT search engine and input “tornadoes” as a starting point. The same non-linkage holds for hurricanes, too. Dr. Ryan Maue has excellent graphs of hurricane energy over time.
Robert Brown says:
What I cannot understand is why any scientist wouldn’t just present the data and let it speak for itself.
Hi Dr. Brown
Me not being a scientist, may not qualify for the above invitation, but will do anyway:
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/NH-SH.htm
(relegated to ‘quackery’ ?)
Philosophical tour de force.
That was incredibly eloquent and most excellently constructed, I fear that any opposing point of view will be quite short-handed should they actually attempt to rebuff your exceedingly solid rationale.
Thank you Dr Brown.
And thanks to Anthony for sharing this fantastic piece of scientific commentary.
That is THE elevator speech to end all elevator speeches on the matter of CAGW.
OldFossil- it has been repeatedly demonstrated that there is nothing extreme about any of the weather of the last decade and it is a topic that has been covered here on WUWT repeatedly. A short bit of searching on WUWT will answer your question with plenty of evidence. In short, the last ten years is actually quite boring in terms of the geological history of the earth.
Now I have to go back and read through the commentary…
Davidmhoffer says “Your original assertion sir, was that it was simple name calling, and could be safely ignored.”
Not so: my earlier posting said “Wouldn’t it be better just to ignore the silly labels and get on with the mission?” (italics now added). And I did not anywhere suggest you were an advocate of violating anyone’s freedom of speech – I simply said (in terms) that there are no legal powers in US or UK jurisdictions which prevent alarmists using the pejorative label “denier” if they wish to do so.
Equally, you are of course entitled to continue to rail away about the threats which appear to be your main concern. Good luck to you with that – but I’m afraid there is still no way legally to prevent alarmists using the “d-word”, if they so wish. We can only seek to get on with the job of ultimately proving they are wrong.
oldfossil says:
June 23, 2012 at 2:04 pm
I ask the following question not in order to debunk the previous comments, but in all sincerity. How does the extreme weather of the past decade fit into this? Floods, hurricanes, melting of polar ice sheets? This needs a good answer because it’s the first challenge that a CAGW supporter is going to throw at you.
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An answer from a “Joe-sixpack”: Those promoting and enabling the CAGW theory are the ones inserting the adjective “extreme” into the reporting of weather events. I don’t know how old you are. I’m 58. There have been droughts, tornadoes, storms, heat waves, blizzard, floods in whatever neck of the woods I’ve been in as long as I’ve been alive. People used to say jokingly, “Everybody complains about the weather but nobody does anything about it.” Well, we still can’t do anything about it but some have found a way to make money and gain power from scaring people about it.
The weather events that are happening now have happened before and will happen again.
When I was a kid the “extreme” weather had to do with cold. When my parents were kids it had to do with heat. (The Dust Bowl etc.)
Today the tendency is to report in terms of monetary damage. Katrina. If it hadn’t hit a major coastal city built below sea level, how strong was it really “storm-wise” compared to other hurricanes?
Just help the CAGWer that has been duped by the propaganda to put things into perspective.
Instead of repeating the AGW narratives one way or another, you are welcome to provide a physical experimental proof of CO2 warming and a proof, that the methods of calculations of “global warming” are scientifically correct. Because in absence of these proofs the whole AGW thing is just a speculation multiplied with propaganda.
You have a chance to become the first warmist who managed it.
You mean you need more of a proof than the TOA IR spectrographs that show the CO_2 hole? Or do you really think that the AGW conspiracy stretches back so many years that all of the proxy and instrumental records of a general warming post LIA are part of it? How odd.
Way to enter a discussion about the inappropriate nature of using the term “denier” with a rebuttal containing the term “warmist”, by the way. That way I get to be the best of both worlds — a warmist denier.
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