
Guest Post by Jeff Condon
Tamino has his crowd all whipped up about sea ice. He has done two posts now declaring how stupid I, Anthony Watts, and by association, all of you, are. Sorry folks, it was a drive-by incident! For him, I’m not enough of a believer and for others, I’m too much. Is it is a good sign when you get it from all angles? Either way, he has made deliberately erroneous claims in an attempt to discredit this blog, and WUWT, which I suppose means we have struck a nerve.
The first thing I would like to clarify is my opinion on sea ice in general. Like many readers here, I have read a large number of papers on the topic, unlike most, I have also taken the time to download and plot satellite Sea Ice data, replicated the trends and examined sea ice on a regional basis. With help, I have identified evidence of minor trend inducing error and will soon be looking at how the online satellite data is knitted together during transitions. From all of these many hours of time, I’m completely unconvinced that man made global warming is causing very much of the observed sea ice decline. I’m also willing to be wrong but the literature appears to support that a substantial portion of the Northern hemisphere decline is caused by a weather pattern change in the Arctic.
This opinion is reasonably standard in the mainstream although it is often mixed with the claim that warming weakened the ice and allowed it to flow out of the polar region. The possibility that warming or weather are primary causes of the declining sea ice creates a need for disaggregation. Of course the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive so there is a lot of room for some combination of a variety of factors to be the cause. We also know that something the believers often conveniently forget is that not all warming is CO2 based.
So with all of that said, I don’t think that the effect man is having on the globe is detectable in the ice trend. Detectable being statistically differentiable. That is very different from whether a trend can be detected or whether a trend is caused by natural warming. In his recent two posts, Tamino (aka Dr. Grant Foster) mixes everything together in what has been a successful attempt to whip up his followers. Unlike the Air Vent and WUWT, his crowd is comprised primarily of non-technical readers who often jump at any statement they can find with literally zero understanding of why or what they are attacking.
So, if you have a region like the Arctic, where sea ice is often, but not always, multi-year and that ice is being affected by being either pushed out of the region and melting, simply warming and melting or some combination, and you want to understand the trend in ice levels for the globe caused by surface temperature warming, then disambiguation of the effects is necessary. Therefore measuring ice which melts completely and re-forms annually should provide a cleaner temperature signal than a region reacting to something else.
To that end I made the plot below from gigabytes of satellite data which identified 72 degrees North Latitude as the line where multi-year ice is nearly non-existent. Layman Lurker confirmed this latitude independently (and with less effort) before I finished. Now “nearly non-existent” is different from “completely non-existent” but not by much (see how that works!). Engineers and scientists often approximate things but some in Tamino’s crowd show their inexperience and called this as an error despite having no evidence.
So I then added up all of the single year sea ice south of 72 North latitude in the Northern and Southern hemisphere, plotted all of it including the pole-hole part left out, and referred to it as global single year ice. Unfortunately, the global ice didn’t have enough trend for Tamino (wasn’t quite 95% significant) and he completely wigged. (“Wigged”, is a psychiatric term used to describe the reaction of believers when they discover something is unhelpful to the “cause”. ) What he did to “fight back” was misrepresent the work and show a ridiculous annual refreeze plot in the North region implying that somehow that is equivalent. That was Grant Fosters trick on his readers, who were unwilling or unable to point out the deception. Several of them fell for it completely and their acerbic comments went uncorrected by Grant.
The north pole is a trapped region which freezes “nearly” completely every year. As multi-year ice vanishes, there is an increase in available open sea area and single year ice area naturally increases. Therefore if you want to isolate the effect of temperature on sea ice from weather effects on North polar ice, it is counterproductive to include anything from that region.
I have spent about an hour and a half now processing the data to see how well each region correlates to UAH NH temperatures. I took the entire NH temperature and correlated it to Northern hemisphere sea ice South of 72 degrees North latitude and sea ice North of 72 degrees. Of course, since we are using ICE, it is preferable to use only ice and temperatures from months where northern ice is present. I chose Jan – September from the video but it was pretty arbitrary. An estimate again! OMG.
Correlation of ice area to NH temperature:
South of 72 – 0.692
North of 72 – 0.593
So sea ice south of 72 correlated better to the NH temperature than that North of 72. It appears that the ice I’ve chosen is a better indicator of NH temp than ice north of that point. Of course it covers a lot more land mass than the other ice but it again confirms that the satellite sensors are measuring a real warming and the high correlation (for climate science) indicates that warming is having an impact on ice melt. It also confirms that the disaggregation of the data may not be worthless after all.
Lets see what Tamino’s crowd had to say about our collective stupidity-for daring to plot data:
“What Condon’s essay really illustrates is how fake skeptics fool themselves into thinking they have real evidence.”
“It’s my opinion that people like Jeff Condon are actually enemies of liberty.”
“It’s simple bootstrapping – it’s deliberate misinformation.”
“I cannot read much of Watts and other deniers – because too quickly I realize I am arguing with idiots. “
“Thanks very much for exposing this breathtaking piece of idiocy.”
“Every time I think I’ve finally become cynical enough to no longer be surprised by denier lies, something like this comes along and proves me wrong.”
“Watts’ comment was obvious. After all, he’s paid to say he’s not concerned. “
“This is typical of deniers. You start with the answer you want and then torture the data until you get enough evidence to believe it.”
“There is absolutely nothing justifiable from a scientific perspective in the ways Condon slices and dices the data”
“Cherry picking data to come to a conclusion the you already believed to be true, is the prime example of being a denier and not an honest skeptic.”
“Jeff Condon is anti-innovation, pure and simple.”
“Jeff is a moron.”
“Jeff got as close to the poles as he could without people noticing he was egregiously cheating.”
And that all is from the FIRST post. Tamino, who I believe realized his trick made him look bad, put up another post quickly attacking an older piece where I dared point out that sea ice level reached ‘average’.
oh my……
And around the believers went again.
Related articles
- How Fake Skeptics Fool Themselves (tamino.wordpress.com)
- Tamino Misses The Point And Attempts To Distract His Readers (wattsupwiththat.com)
- Sea Ice News Volume 3 #1 – The “Arctic Institute” pwns itself (wattsupwiththat.com)
- WUWT Sea Ice Page
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For the record, here’s what the sea ice looks like today – Anthony
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![ssmi1_ice_ext[1]](http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/ssmi1_ice_ext11.png?resize=640%2C479&quality=75)
![N_stddev_timeseries[1]](http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/n_stddev_timeseries11.png?resize=640%2C512&quality=75)
WRT Taminao,
some yeas back I got into a discussion with Tamino over at RC, amid some censoring. It concerned the Central England Temperature set from 1659-2009. In my case I used spectral analysis, & Fourier Convolution methods to indicate longer term trends. I remember Tamino predicted increasing CEL temperatures, while my analysis contradicted his. He preferred “true statistical” analysis, & my analysis was “flawed”, end of discussion, followed by more censorship.
Well here was my 1650-2010, plot using CEL data, & a 50 year (0.02 cy/yr) freq. cut-off.
http://www.4shared.com/photo/7rxAWINH/Ave1_2010_FF_50yr.html
For comparison, here is the result of a 20yr (0.05 cy/yr) cut-off)
http://www.4shared.com/photo/k3wgtEsA/Ave1_2010_FF_20yr.html
I think the results speak for themselves.
Interactive chart showing the complete satellite record without an imposed average. Cryosphere Today also does a great job of segmenting Arctic Sea Ice into regions and highlights the deviations both positive and negative within each region.
http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/arctic.sea.ice.interactive.html
Maybe I’m wrong but temperature is only one variable in the process. Ocean salinity and fresh water input are far more significant. If anyone wishes to tie temperature to decline in Arctic Sea Ice, it seems logical to start with changes in the tropics and to include all ocean and atmospheric conditions in the equation before attempting to isolate the Arctic temperature changes as a smoking gun.
Does anyone have a link to a study that considers all aspects of Arctic Sea Ice formation and also attempts to convey a view of the regional trends?
First, my CV on climate…none. But, I am a thinker and a reader. I believe we are still emerging from the LIA and we could have some more warming to do. But, I don’t see what’s ALL bad about it. I still don’t see how anyone has proven what is happening with snow, rain, heat, sun spots, wind, hurricanes, tornadoes, animal extinctions, human death tolls, ocean temps, ocean chemistry, and yes, even CO2, is not within some natural variability given current population and economic distribution levels. Also, no one has proven “C” AGW and only some connection with man causing any warming. I see no major problem if the Arctic icecap is lost, again and more usable land is opened up due to some promised melting.
“He published a paper recently that argued that if you adjusted out all the parts of the climate system that contributed to cooling, such that you were left only with the elements of the climate system that caused warming, this proved that warming occurred unabated.”
Sorry, but it is impossible to remove the affects of ENSO from global temperatures. Nobody has managed to do it yet correctly. It requires to beable to do this removing the process caused by ENSO, and this involves most regions of the world oceans. The ENSO indicies is not the process of how these changes move this flow to other regions of the planet. All his paper did was move the warming from ENSO to a later time frame because it accumlates, moving with surface currents and warms other surface temperatures around the world therefore never removing it.
I think now the question might have to be at what point do you rate Tamino’s site as unreliable?
From the CA article on the here-again, gone-again Gaspé cedars HS:
“Tamino purports to be a data analyst …”.
Apparently in the CS community, “analyst” means “fudging expert.” Or maybe HS-carver.
Replication ist verboten! — “none of Cook, Jacoby or D’Arrigo would provide this information on the location of the Gaspé cedars when I inquired, saying that I wished to re-sample the site. They claimed that the collection was done prior to GPS and that they didn’t know where it was.”
Naturally; he’d only have tried to find fault with it!
Archives? We don’t need no steenkin’ archives!
LOL
P.S. Interestingly, “World experts on cedar … said that cedars like cool and moist climate.” So they’re inverted treemometers! A Gaspé HS would have indicated CAGC (Catastrophic Anthropogenic Global Cooling). Tamino should be careful what he
fudgesasks for.Warmists should ‘rejoice’ at good news – but they hardly ever do because it’s a religion to them. There has to be the threat of pending disaster to keep the folks in line.
I often wonder that Warmists would say IF Arctic sea ice extent reached the 1979 level? The question in important for it would highlight AGW as a religion or not. Simple!
Philip Bradley @ur momisugly here
“Comiso 2012 is the paper that found older multiyear sea ice was melting faster than younger multi-year.”
Yes, over the long-term. Not for every year, however.
“I’m sceptical any amount of warming would produce this effect.”
Skeptical is good.
“Whereas its fairly simple to explain by increased solar insolation. Older multi-year ice will have more particulates embedded in it. As solar insolation melts the ice surface these particulates concentrate on the surface reducing the albedo and accelerating the melt.”
Fair hypothesis. Does it make any difference to the Comiso paper?
Out of curiosity, have you applied much skepticism to the notion you have advanced in terms of the general understanding of Arctic ice melt. I would be curious to see how you attacked this hypothesis in true skeptical style. I have some criticisms, but I’d be interested to see what you came up with first.
“Comiso found a correlation with warmer temps, which doesn’t mean he found a contribution. Such a statement is an assumption about what is cause and what is effect.”
Yes, correlation does not mean causation – my language was lazy. I think the notion that ice melts when temperatures rise is not very controversial, and that this has happened in the Arctic is strongly and broadly supported by evidence. However, the notion that the rise of temps in the Arctic is mainly caused by ice melt lacks strong evidence. You know of any?
[snip – I don’t like Tamino aka Grant Foster’s opinions either, but calling him names and libeling him like you did just won’t fly here – Anthony]
Foster Grant is such an inveterate hick.
Considering the number of dead graphs and satellites etc. on Anthony’s Ice Page, I’d say the current level of confidence is probably lower. Overall, since 2000, it may be higher. tAV has had some success with doing animations of the seasonal changes, all the way back to ’80 you might like to consider:
http://noconsensus.wordpress.com/2012/02/04/seasonal-comparison-of-northern-hemisphere-sea-ice/
10-15% error would be HUGE!
Typo: “all the way back to ’78 you might …”
Looks like Philip isn’t going to show up, so I’ll answer my own question.
“Comiso 2012 is the paper that found older multiyear sea ice was melting faster than younger multi-year. I’m sceptical any amount of warming would produce this effect.”
It’s exactly what would happen with pretty much anything warming the Arctic generally. As long as much of the region falls to below zero in winter, first-year ice will continue to form over a huge area, whereas multiyear ice will form less. As the multi-year ice gets eaten away, first year ice replaces it, and that first year ice become young multiyear ice if it survives the summer. With less ice thickness holding the pack together, flow increases and turnover begins to happen more quickly, meaning that it is harder for young multiyear ice to become older, thicker ice before it is transported out. It’s less difficult for first year ice to become younger multiyear ice because less time is needed for that to happen. Eventually the region becomes dominated by first year ice.
And that’s exactly what has happened. Counterintuitively, the older multiyear ice is most vulnerable. The piece of the puzzle Phil is missing is the bit where new ice, and especially new multiyear ice, is formed more easily than older multiyear.
philincalifornia says @ur momisugly March 5, 2012 at 10:30 pm
One can only hope that, as with an ass, the cross between a compulsive liar and a statistician is also sterile.
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Unfortunately an ass is not sterile it is the offspring of an ass and a horse (mule or hinny) that is sterile but a nice thought any way.