Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach
I’ve been considering the effect that temperature swings have on the average temperature of a planet. It comes up regarding the question of why the moon is so much colder than you’d expect. The albedo (reflectivity) of the moon is less than that of the Earth. You can see the difference in albedo in Figure 1. There are lots of parts of the Earth that are white from clouds, snow, and ice. But the moon is mostly gray. As a result, the Earth’s albedo is about 0.30, while the Moon’s albedo is only about 0.11. So the moon should be absorbing more energy than the Earth. And as a result, the surface of the moon should be just below the freezing temperature of water. But it’s not, it’s much colder.
Figure 1. Lunar surface temperature observations from the Apollo 15 mission. Red and yellow-green short horizontal bars on the left show the theoretical (red) and actual (yellow-green) lunar average temperatures. The violet and blue horizontal bars on the right show the theoretical Stefan-Boltzmann temperature of the Earth with no atmosphere (violet), and an approximation of how much such an Earth’s temperature would be lowered by a ± 50°C swing caused by the rotation of the Earth (light blue). Sunset temperature fluctuations omitted for clarity. DATA SOURCE
Like the Earth, averaged over its whole surface the moon receives about 342 watts per square metre (W/m2) of solar energy. We’re the same average distance from the sun, after all. The Earth reflects 30% of that back into space (albedo of 0.30), leaving about 240 W/m2. The moon, with a lower albedo, reflects less and absorbs more energy, about 304 W/m2.
And since the moon is in thermal equilibrium, it must radiate the same amount it receives from the sun, ~ 304 W/m2.
There is something called the “Stefan Boltzmann equation” (which I’ll call the “S-B equation” or simply “S-B”) that relates temperature (in kelvins) to thermal radiation (in watts per square metre). It says that radiation is proportional to the fourth power of the temperature.
Given that the moon must be radiating about 304 W/m2 of energy to space to balance the incoming energy, the corresponding blackbody lunar temperature given by the S-B equation is about half a degree Celsius. It is shown in Figure 1 by the short horizontal red line. This shows that theoretically the moon should be just below freezing.
But the measured actual average temperature of the lunar surface shown in Figure 1 is minus 77°C, way below freezing, as shown by the short horizontal yellow-green line …
So what’s going on? Does this mean that the S-B equation is incorrect, or that it doesn’t apply to the moon?
The key to the puzzle is that the average temperature doesn’t matter. It only matters that the average radiation is 304 W/m2. That is the absolute requirement set by thermodynamics—the average radiation emitted by the moon must equal the radiation the moon receives from the sun, 304 W/m2.
But the radiation is proportional to the fourth power of temperature. This means when the temperature is high, there is a whole lot more radiation, but when it is low, the reduction in radiation is not as great. As a result, if there are temperature swings, they always make the surface radiate more energy. As a result of radiating more energy, the surface temperature cools. So in an equilibrium situation like the moon, where the amount of emitted radiation is fixed, temperature swings always lower the average surface temperature.
For confirmation, in Figure 1 above, if we first convert the moment-by-moment lunar surface temperatures to the corresponding amounts of radiation and then average them, the average is 313 W/m2. This is only trivially different from the 304 W/m2 we got from the first-principles calculation involving the incoming sunlight and the lunar albedo. And while this precise an agreement is somewhat coincidental (given that our data is from one single lunar location), it certainly explains the large difference between simplistic theory and actual observations.
So there is no contradiction at all between the lunar temperature and the S-B calculation. The average temperature is lowered by the swings, while the average radiation stays the same. The actual lunar temperature pattern is one of the many possible temperature variations that could give the same average radiation, 304 W/m2.
Now, here’s an oddity. The low average lunar temperature is a consequence of the size of the temperature swings. The bigger the temperature swings, the lower the average temperature. If the moon rotated faster, the swings would be smaller, and the average temperature would be warmer. If there were no swings in temperature at all and the lunar surface were somehow evenly warmed all over, the moon would be just barely below freezing. In fact, anything that reduces the variations in temperature would raise the average temperature of the moon.
One thing that could reduce the swings would be if the moon had an atmosphere, even if that atmosphere had no greenhouse gases (“GHGs”) and was perfectly transparent to infrared. In general, one effect of even a perfectly transparent atmosphere is that it transports energy from where it is warm to where it is cold. Of course, this reduces the temperature swings and differences. And that in turn would slightly warm the moon.
A second way that even a perfectly transparent GHG-free atmosphere would warm the moon is that the atmosphere adds thermal mass to the system. Because the atmosphere needs to be heated and cooled as well as the surface, this will also reduce the temperature swings, and again will slightly warm the surface in consequence. It’s not a lot of thermal mass, however, and only the lowest part has a significant diurnal temperature fluctuation. Finally, the specific heat of the atmosphere is only about a quarter that of the water. As a result of this combination of factors, this is a fairly minor effect.
Now, I want to stop here and make a very important point. These last two phenomena mean that the moon with a perfectly transparent GHG-free atmosphere would be warmer than the moon without such an atmosphere. But a transparent atmosphere could never raise the moon’s temperature above the S-B blackbody temperature of half a degree Celsius.
The proof of this is trivially simple, and is done by contradiction. Suppose a perfectly transparent atmosphere could raise the average temperature of the moon above the blackbody temperature, which is the temperature at which it emits 304 W/m2.
But the lunar surface is the only thing that can emit energy in the system, because the atmosphere is transparent and has no GHGs. So if the surface were warmer than the S-B theoretical temperature, the surface would be emitting more than 304 W/m2 to space, while only absorbing 304 W/m2, and that would make it into a perpetual motion machine. Q.E.D.
So while a perfectly transparent atmosphere with no GHGs can reduce the amount of cooling that results from temperature swings, it cannot do more than reduce the cooling. There is a physical limit to how much it can warm the planet. At a maximum, if all the temperature swings were perfectly evened out, we can only get back to S-B temperature, not above it. This means that for example, a transparent atmosphere could not be responsible for the Earth’s current temperature, because the Earth’s temperature is well above the S-B theoretical temperature of ~ -18°C.
Having gotten that far, I wanted to consider what the temperature swings of the Earth might be like without an atmosphere. Basic calculations show that with the current albedo, the Earth with no atmosphere would be at a blackbody temperature of 240 W/m2 ≈ -18°C. But how much would the rotation cool the planet?
Unfortunately, the moon rotates so slowly that it is not a good analogue to the Earth. There is one bit of lunar information we can use, however. This is how fast the moon cools after dark. In that case the moon and the Earth without atmosphere would be roughly equivalent, both simply radiating to outer space. At lunar sunset, the moon’s surface temperature shown in Figure 1 is about -60°C. Over the next 30 hours, it drops steadily at a rate of about 4°C per hour. At that point the temperature is about -180°C. From there it only cools slightly for the next two weeks, because the radiation is so low. For example, at its coolest the lunar surface is at about -191°C, and at that point it is radiating a whopping two and a half watts per square metre … and as a result the radiative cooling is very, very slow.
So … for a back of the envelope calculation, we might estimate that the Earth would cool at about the lunar rate of 4°C per hour for 12 hours. During that time, it would drop by about 50°C (90°F). During the day, it might warm about the same above the average. So, we might figure that the temperature swings on the Earth without an atmosphere might be on the order of ± 50°C. (As we would expect, actual temperature swings on Earth are much smaller, with a maximum of about ± 20-25 °C, usually in the desert regions.)
How much would this ±50° swing with no atmosphere cool the planet?
Thanks to a bit of nice math from Dr. Robert Brown (here), we know that if dT is the size of the swing in temperature above and below the average, and T is the temperature of the center of the swing, the radiation varies by 1 + 6 * (dT/T)^2. With some more math (see the appendix), this would indicate that if the amount of solar energy hitting the planet is 240 W/m2 (≈ -18°C) and the swings were ± 50°C, the average temperature would be – 33°C. Some of the warming from that chilly temperature is from the atmosphere itself, and some is from the greenhouse effect.
This in turn indicates another curiosity. I’ve always assumed that the warming from the GHGs was due solely to the direct warming effects of the radiation. But a characteristic of the greenhouse radiation (downwelling longwave radiation, also called DLR) is that it is there both day and night, and from equator to poles. Oh, there are certainly differences in radiation from different locations and times. But overall, one of the big effects of the greenhouse radiation is that it greatly reduces the temperature swings because it provides extra energy in the times and places where the solar energy is not present or is greatly reduced.
This means that the greenhouse effect warms the earth in two ways—directly, and also indirectly by reducing the temperature swings. That’s news to me, and it reminds me that the best thing about studying the climate is that there is always more for me to learn.
Finally, as the planetary system warms, each additional degree of warming comes at a greater and greater cost in terms of the energy needed to warm the planet that one degree.
Part of this effect is because the cooling radiation is rising as the fourth power of the temperature. Part of the effect is because Murphy never sleeps, so that just like with your car engine, parasitic losses (losses of sensible and latent heat from the surface) go up faster than the increase in driving energy. And lastly, there are a number of homeostatic mechanisms in the natural climate system that work together to keep the earth from overheating.
These thermostatic mechanisms include, among others,
• the daily timing and number of tropical thunderstorms.
• the fact that clouds warm the Earth in the winter and cool it in the summer.
• the El Niño/La Niña ocean energy release mechanism.
These work together with other such mechanisms to maintain the whole system stable to within about half a degree per century. This is a variation in temperature of less than 0.2%. Note that doesn’t mean less than two percent. The global average temperature has changed less than two tenths of a percent in a century, an amazing stability for such an incredibly complex system ruled by something as ethereal as clouds and water vapor … I can only ascribe that temperature stability to the existence of such multiple, overlapping, redundant thermostatic mechanisms.
As a result, while the greenhouse effect has done the heavy lifting to get the planet up to its current temperature, at the present equilibrium condition the effect of variations in forcing is counterbalanced by changes in albedo and cloud composition and energy throughput, with very little resulting change in temperature.
Best to all, full moon tonight, crisp and crystalline, I’m going outside for some moon-viewing.
O beautiful full moon! Circling the pond all night even to the end Matsuo Basho, 1644-1694
w.
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M. Simon says:
January 10, 2012 at 9:44 am
Thanks for that. I knew I’d take heat because my calculations were merely a first cut, and as such will only give a ballpark figure. I just wanted to discuss the T^4 and what the implications of that are, and the Moon was a perfect example.
w.
Joules Verne says:
January 10, 2012 at 9:56 am
True, Joules, and there’s a good discussion of the subject here. At the salinity of most sea water (around 35 psu), the maximum density is at slightly below freezing.
w.
Agile Aspect says:
January 10, 2012 at 10:08 am
Sorry, you don’t get to make up what he is skeptical about, because he told you what he’s skeptical about, which is the “heating” of the atmosphere by gravy. That has nothing to do with pressure and density decreasing with height.
w.
“The sun heats the surface, the surface heats the atmosphere, and the farther away from the source of heat the colder it gets. It’s the same “lapse rate” principle you experience as you move further away from a campfire.”
The heat near the campfire gets higher with more molecules (increased air density) around the flames because it is moved away more slowly due to the higher number of molecular collisions.. So the density of the air around the campfire increases the temperature gradient from fire to you. In effect the denser atmosphere obstructs radiation leaving conduction relatively more important. Conduction is a slower process than radiation so the temperature rises.
In exactly the same way the denser the Earth’s atmosphere the hotter the surface becomes and the steeper the temperature gradient upward because space remains at the same temperature but the surface gets hotter. Just as with the campfire the solar energy hitting the surface is moved away more slowly because the role of slow conduction is enhanced relative to that of fast radiation.
Density of the air at the surface is a result of the strength of the gravitational pull and the mass (not composition) of the atmosphere.
So, indirectly, through pressure and then density, gravity does determine the lapse rate and it is mass dependent and not composition dependent so Oxygen and Nitrogen are involved despite being relatively non radiative.
That is what relegates radiative processes to a secondary role and explains why it is gravity rather than radiation that sets the lapse rate.
Gravity and density alter the balance between fast radiation and slow conduction. If one reduces radiation and increases conduction the heat content and temperature will rise given the same energy input.
Opps – should have read:
The Stefan-Boltzmann Law gets you -18 C or roughly 40km above the surface of the Earth. To get to the surface from 40km, you need the equation of state of the atmosphere.
Willis Eschenbach says:
January 10, 2012 at 11:35 am
“Sorry, you don’t get to make up what he is skeptical about, because he told you what he’s skeptical about, which is the “heating” of the atmosphere by gravy.”
The question was directed to him so I’ll wait for him respond with an answer. He’s a big boy – he can speak for himself.
“That has nothing to do with pressure and density decreasing with height.”
Those are your words – but your understanding of physics is atrocious.
Willis says:”…Whatever the radiation is absorbed by, it increases the energy of that object, regardless of the relative temperatures of the emitter and the absorber…”
The “absorbed by” is assumed, not a fact. It could just as well be reflected. Granted it was a few years ago but I was taught that a higher energy object does not absorb lower energy radiation. It is already there. You can’t take a down elevator to go up to the next floor so to speak.
That is why q/a = 0 when T1=T2 even to the 4th power.
mkelly says:
The “absorbed by” is assumed, not a fact.
This is a question that I have thought about without a neat agreed answer as yet.
The radiation(or photons) from the colder object certainly reaches the hotter surface.
The first law says it can be exchanged for an equal quantity of radiation of radiation from the hotter surface.
The second law says however that the radiation cannot increase its quality.
This means that it cannot occupy higher levels or floors in your analogy.
The interaction of photons and surface is much more complicated than the simple picture usually presented.
What the SB equations tell us is compatible with the ‘colder’ radiation being absorbed then contributing to the flow of the ‘hotter’ radiation, which will be more intense at every wavelength.
Alternatively and equally valid way of looking at it is to consider the colder objects radiative effect as being radiative insulation slowing down heat loss from the warmer object.
Stephen Wilde says:
January 10, 2012 at 11:39 am
Density of the air at the surface is a result of the strength of the gravitational pull and the mass (not composition) of the atmosphere.
So, indirectly, through pressure and then density, gravity does determine the lapse rate and it is mass dependent and not composition dependent so Oxygen and Nitrogen are involved despite being relatively non radiative.
No, it depends on g and the composition, adiabatic lapse rate = -g/Cp and Cp depends on composition.
The temperature inversion in the stratosphere is due to OTHER heating sources. For example, this discussion has been mostly assuming that the atmosphere is transparent — in fact the ozone in the stratosphere absorbs a lot of UV light, leading to heating. Farther up, the incoming solar wind warms the thermosphere.
The ocean emits about 390 W/m2 of thermal (infrared) radiation.
It gains about 170 W/m2 from the sun, and about 320 W/m2 from DLR. total = 490 W/m2
There has to be a typo here somewhere. Totals don’t match.
Stephen Rasey,
“There has to be a typo here somewhere. Totals don’t match.”
Not a typo. Convective energy transfer from the ocean surface to the atmosphere of about 100 W/m2 was left out. Most of this transfer will be latent heat in the form of evaporation of water from the surface and condensation in the atmosphere, but some is sensible heat in the form of hot air rising upward from the ocean surface (when the sun is shining).
What I never see mentioned is that when a body emits a quanta of energy the energy level of that body decreases. So the very fact that the Earth’s surface “heats” the atmosphere means the energy level decreases. Clearly during the day the incoming energy can overwhelm the rate of heat loss and the surface warms but once the influx reduces the rate of heat loss overwhelms heat gains.
Atoms in the atmosphere also loose energy as they radiate but AGW never seems to explain this to lay people as they continually refer to “greenhouse gases” trapping heat.
As I see it – in the absence of an external or internal source of energy everything in the universe is coolind down.
I find it hard to buy the radiative imbalance by “trapping” heat – I really doubt we have the technology or the finances to say we have evidence of this outside of theory – and the theory I have seen do not model the world – especially the “radiation balance” based on the geometry of a disk to a sphere – I consider this a fraud.
There is little chance a set of equations based on insolation varying from pole to pole, varying by inclination of the Sun on a sphere that is continually rotating and not understandin so many things about energy circulation, changes in atmospheric and oceanic conditions, changes in Biomass etc etc could ever be truly scientifically constructed – the simple variation of the insolation and rate of heat loss over the globe soon becomes mind boggingly complex..
So a further question for anyone wishing to do more then a thought experiment.
Sunlight radiating on the Earth when it’s about 3,000,000 miles closer to the sun in January, is about 7% more intense than in July. (TOA of plus 100 W/m2 ) Despite the increased insolation the atmospheres average temperature is about 4 degrees cooler in January. Because the Northern Hemisphere has more land, which heats easier then water, most people state that the Earth’s average temperature is about 4 degrees F higher in July than January, when in fact they should be stating that the ATMOSPHERE is 4 degrees higher in July.”
Or there no attempt to measure surface temperature. And the air temperature in the shade
is fairly good measurement of average ATMOSPHERIC temperature. And very sensible if
you concerned about knowing the weather.
” In January this extra SW energy is being pumped into the oceans where the “residence time” within the Earth’s ocean land and atmosphere is the longest. There is not only 7% more intense radiation, there is more ocean to receive this radiation. So, the atmosphere in January loses energy two ways. One to the oceans until it is re radiated as LWIR, and two, to space due to greater NH albedo resulting in greater total earth albedo during the NH winter months. Now the question. Is the earth gaing or losing energy in January, and please quantify your answer?”
Well most important aspect is most heating in done in tropics. So in terms distance in terms thousands of miles- most of heating isn’t widely separated.
So it seems to answer your question one should focus on the bouncing ball- ignore the rest of the world. The area it bounces in is easily more than 1/2 of the world and easily receives more than 1/2 the energy.
At the equinox the sun is centered over the equator and the line of Capricorn and Cancer is the furthest it travels in winter and summer.
The lines Capricorn and Cancer defines what is called the tropics, within these boundaries lies 40% of the earth surface. Meaning obviously, that 30% of the remainder of earth surface area is north or south of these lines.
So Tropics is 40% of earth, and the area the ball bounces covering even larger area of the Earth.
Now, how large in diameter is the ball?.
The sun shines on half the planet 180 degree of sphere. It’s shines most energy per square during 9 am and 3 pm, 90 degree of that 180. Or a 1/4 of earth circumference. Earth is about 40,000 km in circumference, so make the ball about 10,000 km in diameter.
So at fall/spring the ball extends 5000 km north and south of equator. Summer and direct above Tropic Cancer the ball extend 5000 km further north and 5000 km south. Same in winter when sun is over Tropic of Capricorn.
Tropic of Cancer: 23° 26′ 22″ N And Tropic of Capricorn: 23° 26′ 22″ S and they north and south of the equator by about 2600 km.
So ball is about twice diameter of region of tropic, and tropics is always within it.
From Havana, Cuba [near tropic Cancer] to Chicago, US is about 2100 km, so at equinox the edge of ball reaches US-Canadian border. London is just above it. Southward covers most Argentina and easily all of Australia. Part of Australia is in tropic, when sun furthest away some it will be within ball diameter.
So during summer in northern Hemisphere every continent [other than Antarctic] has large percentage land area within the ball. But most area covered by ball at highest it gets is still mostly ocean area- so when highest amount land area is in this more intense sunlight- it is still mostly ocean area.
In in terms total land and intensity of sunlight summer in northern Hemisphere gets the most warming on land. During spring/fall there huge loss of land area getting this kind intensity, and ball goes further south less land gets this intense sunlight [Antarctic never gets it nor northern areas in arctic circle]
As guess, in terms of ocean area it is something like northern hemisphere summer: 60% equinox: 75% winter 80%.
With land it’s as about 90%, 50% and 40%
So, 7% more intense in January. Means land area is not getting as hot- and not radiating more energy into space. So since less energy goes into space, earth warms. But land area fairly insignificant. Unless one is concerned glacier advance or retreat- glaciers at moment are insignificant.
In terms of ocean one going from around 60 to 80% of surface [big amount of area added- not a big difference in area]. I would say bigger cooler ocean [than tropics] which can warmed higher amount solar energy. Such heating will not significantly affect how much is radiated- result being warmer average ocean temperature. And some more evaporation.
So adding significant amount of long term warming ocean warming, but doubtful you could measure it in a year or decade.
Then you must be skeptical that the atmospheric pressure and density decreases exponentially with height too.
If you ignore gravity, then the pressure of the atmosphere would be constant (from the surface to x equals infinity.)
Try doing the math.
Then you must be skeptical that the atmospheric pressure and density decreases exponentially with height too.
If you ignore gravity, then the pressure of the atmosphere would be constant (from the surface to x equals infinity.)
Try doing the math.
Sorry, keyboard fart.
You mean, try doing the math like I did here:
http://www.phy.duke.edu/~rgb/Class/intro_physics_1.php
See 8.1.9, Variation of Pressure in Compressible Fluids. Oh snap. I did not just do that.
Now, please explain what that has to do with heating of the atmosphere. Would that be nothing? I think it would, wouldn’t it.
Like I said somewhere, this thread or somewhere else, if you want to do fluids “right”, look at Navier-Stokes. Otherwise, get out of the game. Everything one does is heuristic or bullshit. PV=NkT per se has so cosmically nothing whatsoever to do with global warming that it is rather a pity that it has been brought into the discussion. Heat capacity might. Buoyancy might. Turbulence might. Convection definitely does. Radiation definitely does.
Look, it is perfect possible for a column of gas to be at a uniform temperature even though there is a pressure gradient. You can also compress a gas to (say) ten atmospheres at room temperature. You just have to remove the heat as you do so (and the volume will contract. Yeah, I have chapters for thermo as well but I took them out of the textbook because we stopped covering them in our standard series for premeds.
Just FYI — I’ve taught general intro physics for 30 years this fall, interspersed with teaching things like graduate E&M and quantum mechanics. I don’t use lecture notes to teach — I just walk in and do it. I have (as you can see) written my own textbook on the subject, and another at the graduate E&M level. I am not an idiot when it comes to basic physics and I don’t just “do the math”, I derive the relations from first principles wherever possible as I teach or write (in a level appropriate way). So seriously — if anyone wants to try to show me how PV=NkT can warm anything at all without the input of actual energy from somewhere else I’m all ears. Impress me.
rgb
Willis writes “As a result of those factors, particularly the thickness of the mantle and its thermal conductivity, the amount of ground heat flux is quite small.”
I wasn’t actually talking about the earth, I was talking about the moon. My quote put the argument into context. The two objecst are fairly obviously, then, the moon’s surface and its hypothetical non-GHG atmosphere.
I would suggest that a non-GHG atmosphere could make the moon much warmer than it is now on average.
Furthermore the amount of warming is proportional to the density of the atmosphere. I’m not sure you understand the Nickolov argument. I dont think he’s saying that the pressure increases the temperature in some sort of “it does work” way, rather he’s suggesting that the pressure defines the temperature (which is also dependent on the level of insolation) and not so much the levels of GHGs that help put the energy there.
I once read a quote from someone in a thread long ago who suggested that it was only a requirement for “enough” GHGs to exist in the atmosphere to get the GHG effect and that more didn’t necessarily keep making it hotter. Yes, I’ve seen the arguments made to show why it might make it hotter and I’m far from convinced. I think you are far from convinced on this too…
“because he told you what he’s skeptical about, which is the “heating” of the atmosphere by gravy.”
Aah! Bisto
Re the opening of Willis’s article:
Translation:
I had a bit of a rant over on Ira’s article on the N&Z “Unified Climate Theory” article, and Richard Courtney responded with an explanation why addition of any kind of atmosphere to a moon/planet results in warming and transfer of energy from tropics to poles etc. Tim Folkerts and others also touched on the difference between average surface temperature and effective radiative temperature and/or that both are of dubious concept on an airless moon, especially if its day lasts around four earth weeks. With these new understandings, I was able to write a long and brilliant article.
Here is a précis:
On the moon, there is a very slow moving hotspot under the sun, which, because of surface curvature, reduces in energy level by ~41% at 45 degrees latitude/longitude, and 100% at the terminators. (where it goes dark). It is nonsense to apply the Stefan-Boltzman emission law based on average surface temperature, (or the so-called effective radiative temperature spread over the entire surface of the moon), under these conditions. The reason is that the emission rate is proportional to the fourth power of temperature (K), thus the heat loss is relatively extremely high over a small area, and it makes no sense to try to average it over the entire surface.
[Bob, you screwed up the blockquoting on your rant, I fixed it for you. Thanks for referring to my article as “long and brilliant”. —w]
“I am most skeptical about “heating” of the atmosphere due to pressure and PV=NkT — that is nonsense, frankly.”
Well as you mention with lower gravity worlds there problem with keeping a gas atmosphere.
And If we are talking about formal paper- I agree it was severely lacking. But we aren’t talking about a formal paper.
I will interested in looking the more formal version- though no doubt that could also have problems.
“However, Willi’s observation above that an atmosphere acts like “thermal ballast” and helps reduce the hot side and cold side temperature differential, which de facto increases the mean temperature of the planet closer to that predicted by SB for a uniform ball seems to me to be dead on the money.”
Yes.
But I think willis is slightly underestimating the effect.
And as I recall that was one aspect of informal paper aforementioned.
Or increased gravity would increase the efficiency of cooling- and it is
the cooling of sun lit surface- which results in lowers radiative losses. And thereby maintains SB global balance.
The rate cooling may considered unimportant, and some extent this could be the case, but also no gravity means no cooling.
So if you talking 1/2 gravity compared 1 gravity or 1/2 density vs 1 density, well it
might not have much effect.
But what about 1/100th gravity as compare 10 times gravity?
Or we 1/100th gravity is much closer to none:)
I posted a couple days ago that I thought 1/2 earth atmosphere and same gravity, would be generally warmer- because the surface would get more solar energy. And I didn’t mention it at time- but a hotter surface also would transfer more energy in less time to the atmospheric gases.
mkelly says:
January 10, 2012 at 12:15 pm
That would have been believed a few hundred years ago, not a few years ago. Radiation doesn’t know about the temperature of what it strikes. It just strikes the object and some percentage of it is absorbed depending on the absorptivity of the object. There is no magical reflective force to prevent it from doing that.
w.
TimTheToolMan says:
January 10, 2012 at 2:48 pm
Obviously, Tim, that wasn’t obvious, or I wouldn’t have asked.
I’m quite positive that I don’t understand Nikolov’s argument. I’ve been asking people over and over to explain it. I asked him, and he disappeared, hasn’t been heard from since. Why do you defend someone who is unwilling to defend himself?
In any case, so far everyone has done like you do, make vague handwaving statements about his work with nothing in them to measure, nothing in them to falsify, no scientific meat at all. So I have to conclude that you don’t understand Nikolov’s claims either, or you could explain them.
Hey, me too! I once read a quote from someone in a thread long ago who said that precise citation of your sources is very important in scientific discussions …
w.
“From Mike Maxwell on January 9, 2012 at 6:42 pm:
kadaka (KD Knoebel): Apropos of what orbit the Moon would need to be in in order to have a 24-hour day: It would be a geostationary orbit, which is to say about 22,200 miles above the equator (26,200 miles from the Earth’s center, some 42,000 km). You can see a derivation of this in the wikipedia article for “geostationary orbit.” …
Thanks for catching that. I should have gone with the rotational speed, not the actual speed. Geostationary orbit does seem boring though, with the Moon always directly above about the same spot always, thus depriving about half of the planet from ever seeing it at all, with nights that are exceptionally dark.”
Good point Mike, never though of it like that.
As for problem moon stuck in sky, I would be more worried by tidal effect.
So put moon at say 50,000 to 100,000 miles.
Now, you get lunar day which better than 28 day and longer than 24 hours.
Though would wreck the Geostationary satellite launch business.
Give us lots of solar ellipses, and might get solar power from form moonlight,
but if not that, it certainly good enough light to read book.
Willis writes “So I have to conclude that you don’t understand Nikolov’s claims either, or you could explain them.”
You’d be right, I’ve not looked into them in great detail but I can be fairly sure of one thing.
It doesn’t help the discussion when you (and Ira and others) go down a clearly irrlevent path suggesting that the pressure does work on the gas and pointing out this is wrong. At some point you need to actually think about what people are saying and importantly meaning, or you may as well not bother commenting at all.
Nickolov at the very least has made the point that atmosphere density determines its temperature and you have effectively agreed yourself in your hypothetical atmosphere example. Perhaps that is a starting point for you to think about his meaning.
TTTM,
Then he’s wrong. The temperature determines the density. Conversion of gravitational potential energy to kinetic energy can provide a lot of kinetic energy. That’s how we think suns ignite. But it’s a one time thing. If fusion doesn’t start at the core, all that energy eventually radiates away and the ball of gas cools down. In the fullness of time if nothing else happens, it will reach the temperature of the CMB, 2.72 K and its density will reach a maximum. You can even see it on the Earth. The height at 100 mbar near the poles in winter, ~15.5 km is about 1km lower than at the equator( ~16.5 km). The difference is the temperature, not the force of gravity.
“So the deep ocean is 3C not because that’s the low density point. Think again. I can’t think of any way for the ocean to be that temperature except for that being the average of its surface temperature over timespans long enough to cover a complete glacial/interglacial cycle.
Feel free to offer a different explanation. I’m all ears.”
Well, ice floats.
Though given enough pressure ice might not float.
But don’t oceans have that much pressure.
As long as the atmospheric “greenhouse effect” is discussed absent any comprehension of the physical fact that ALL substances with a temperature above Kelvin zero–not just solid bodies and GHGs–radiate energy whose flux density is related to its mass density and specific heat, all explanations of that effect will remain misguided. If the conventional explanation had solid physical basis, it would not require any tortured reasoning or oversimplifications to command the assent of the scientifically literate. Despite a plethora of postures, such command remains patently absent.