I allowed Ric Werme to post a couple of entries on the E-Cat “power reactor” by Andrea Rossi in the past, mainly to spur debate on whether this idea had any merit at all. I shut down comments on the last E Cat thread because it was getting out of hand. I expressed my doubts then that this was a viable energy source.
I think even less of the invention now after reading this essay over at Luboš Motl The Reference Frame. Follow the Joules. Excerpt:
So what Andrea Rossi has achieved was to use the electricity from the power outlet to heat the water right beneath the boiling point at a 75 percent efficiency; something that a good housewife should be able to do in the kitchen at least twice a day. If Mr Rossi has a genuine reactor, a simple way to disprove this description of the details of his stupidity (or his naive magic) is heat the water/steam to 110 °C instead of 100.1 °C using the same gadget. 😉 This is not too much to ask for: typical steam generators in nuclear power plants are pressurized at 60-160 atmospheres and the temperature of water and steam is 220-315 °C.
Maybe the E-Cat might be useful to Starbucks, but as for net positive power generation, it doesn’t seem even remotely plausible. Maybe Mythbusters will take it on for entertainment.
Ric Werme: So, the point of all this is that there is evidence that Rossi is converting water to steam, not just tea ingredients. Even Krivit admits there was steam, just not enough.
Not enough for what?
Assuming that the eCat works as described, it can power a Stirling engine, using a fluid other than water. The Stirling engine can power a generator. The electricity required for start-up can be supplied by a bank of batteries, which are recharged by the generator. Excess electricity can power some jaccuzies and hot-tubs for long periods of time. All the equipment (except the hot tubs) can be purchased at an auto parts store. The technical skill to put it all together can be provided by a high school science club, home hobbyist, or auto mechanic. For a single eCat, the work can be done in a few hours. For the 1MW device in a shipping container, a whole weekend would probably be required.
The ideas that this is (a) hard, (b) sophisticated or (c) time-consuming are absurd.
Septic,
You know what they say about ‘assume’.
As with all claims where we are barred from observing every step of the claimed process, I am a skeptic. Complete transparency is required by the scientific method, so others can replicate the experiment. Rossi can end the controversy in one day by inviting skeptical peers to investigate, and ask Rossi questions. Like the claim that CO2 causes climate change, Rossi is appealing to authority to convince the world that he can pull a rabbit out of a hat.
If it’s real, step aside and let others see what’s behind the curtain.
Ric Werme: Ever tried getting information from Apple about new products, shipping numbers, manufacturing locations (and pollution from suspected manufacturing locations), etc?
Apple does have a record of producing good products, and millions of satisfied customers. At present, Rossi only claims a few customers, who have not so far identified themselves or demonstrated their devices. I would say that your comparison is not informative of anything.
Robert Fulton put an inefficient steam engine on a paddle-wheel boat and ran it up and down the Hudson River. Rossi’s device is reportedly more powerful than that steam engine, and he has not yet used it to do anything as convincing as move a boat up and down a river. If the reports about the eCat are true, it would be a simple thing to accomplish. And it would not reveal any trade secrets. James Watt used an even less efficient steam engine to pump water. Inefficient steam engines powered early railroad trains, and somewhat more efficient steam engines powered automobiles. Steam engines powered factories, of all sizes. The only mystery, if it is a mystery, is why Rossi does all these complicated “tests” instead of doing any of the simple things that would demonstrate that his device works.
Smokey: You know what they say about ‘assume’.
I think you know why I wrote the sentence as I did. You seem to be in agreement with me.
Ric Werme: Here’s what I’ve found for November.
November 1st, 2011 at 2:03 PM
We soon will reach 400-500 Celsius using diathermic oil as a primary fluid. We are studying this throughly with our Customer for his next needs.
In that case, powering a ship, generating electricity, plowing fields, milling grain, machining metal parts, hauling freight and passengers cross county on rail or roads, or pumping oil or water should be straightforward. With the engineering and manufacturing capacity of the US, EU, Brazil, Mexico, Canada, Japan. S. Korea, India, Russia, Turkey, Israel, Iraq, Iran,Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and China, there is the opportunity for thousands of useful devices to be produced in 2012, and then millions mass-produced in 2013.
In that case, the suspense will soon be over.
From JDSmith – Toronto on November 29, 2011 at 5:40 pm:
Found it in the Wikipedia Cold fusion entry:
Note: Ref 102 URL points to first page of the particular reference, pg 183-189, although 185-189 are not available as that’s just a preview. The book is Undead Science: Science Studies and the Afterlife of Cold Fusion by Bart Simon (2002). Available from Amazon in hardcover for $60 (Rutgers University Press, priced like a textbook) or as an e-book for $9.99. Both listings feature the same review, the only review, only 2 of 5 stars, here’s an excerpt:
Septic Matthew says:
November 30, 2011 at 10:39 am
Note: I try to stick to claims of what’s been achieved, not what’s promised. Comes from being in software development for my whole career. So, setting aside the oil coolant and its promise, and just sticking with low pressure steam…
Why is that so many people here and at Rossi’s blog say “just get a Stirling engine”? The only ones I know about are hobbyist demonstrator kits and some providing quiet drive power for nuclear submarines.
Dean Kamen, the inventor of the Segway, home dialysis, and other stuff, produced a flurry of patents for Striling engines. The speculation was he wanted one to power his Segway. That just faded away, I think the manufacturing issues are still just too great.
Let me know which auto parts stores carry 10kW Stirling engines for cheap. http://newenergydirection.com/blog/2009/06/stirling-engine-generator/ refers to a 43 kW unit with generator for $1218/kW.
Just because Stirling engines are feasible, it doesn’t mean they can overcome the poor absolute energy conversion of a small delta-T between source and sink. Neither can low boiling point gas turbines.
Of course, the promise of the oil-based cooling changes the issue dramatically (except for the feasibility of using Stirling engines cost effectively). Turbines will continue to rule.
Until then, the market for low grade process heat and space heating can get the industry off the ground.
Patience….point
Darn, now arrives the discouraging news from NASA Chief Scientist Dr. Dennis Bushnell, that basically everything Signor Rossi claims is potentially TRUE. Arghhh. Which is why we don’t believe NASA about climate – because they tend to eggsagurate! But for what it’s worth, Doc Bushnell says Low Energy Nuclear Reaction technology will solve climate change and pollution problems to boot:
“In Short, LENR , depending upon the TBD performance, appears to be capable of Revolutionizing Aerospace across the board. No other single technology even comes close to the potential impacts of LENR upon Agency Missions.”
http://ecatnews.com/?p=1554
Go figger.
All this guff is just uninformed conjecture…..
until the box is opened only then will we know if the e-cat is dead or alive(schrodinger pun intended-sorry)
If it is proven to be bullshit im going to find mr rossi and punch his fucking lights out for wasting my time reading about this.
The truly sad thing is that in the face of, literally, discovering the holy grail of science- a potential end to all mankinds energy woes-
the only thing proven is the shocking propensity for personal greed amongst these “scientists”….to be honest i hope it doesnt fucking work …because if this is how humanity is going to deal with this zenith and peak of all human understanding of the natural world we actually deserve to fucking choke to death on our coal fumes…..
whichever way you look at it Mr.Rossi is 100% pure greedy cunt no matter if he is full of shit or not.
seemingly no-one has perfected this technology yet and all the greedy little cabals that want their pound of flesh can go fuck emselves because every minute wasted in not developing this tech and sharing the process openly in the spirit of science brings us closer to peak oil, environmental disaster and species suicide.
Even if this out there product proves to be real- the scientists involved are proving nothing but we flat out dont deserve it.