I allowed Ric Werme to post a couple of entries on the E-Cat “power reactor” by Andrea Rossi in the past, mainly to spur debate on whether this idea had any merit at all. I shut down comments on the last E Cat thread because it was getting out of hand. I expressed my doubts then that this was a viable energy source.
I think even less of the invention now after reading this essay over at Luboš Motl The Reference Frame. Follow the Joules. Excerpt:
So what Andrea Rossi has achieved was to use the electricity from the power outlet to heat the water right beneath the boiling point at a 75 percent efficiency; something that a good housewife should be able to do in the kitchen at least twice a day. If Mr Rossi has a genuine reactor, a simple way to disprove this description of the details of his stupidity (or his naive magic) is heat the water/steam to 110 °C instead of 100.1 °C using the same gadget. 😉 This is not too much to ask for: typical steam generators in nuclear power plants are pressurized at 60-160 atmospheres and the temperature of water and steam is 220-315 °C.
Maybe the E-Cat might be useful to Starbucks, but as for net positive power generation, it doesn’t seem even remotely plausible. Maybe Mythbusters will take it on for entertainment.
I think you’re missing something. Over 5 hours, 475 kW would result in 2375 kW-hr, or about 8.6 GJ. Watts is power, watt-hours is energy.
re post by: Ric Werme says: November 27, 2011 at 2:15 pm
Of course, the primary reason a nuclear power plant is connected to the grid has nothing to do with electrical needs of the plant, but with the absolute necessity to have somewhere for the massive amounts of electricity produced to go. The load must be balanced. That’s why if offsite power is lost, the plant will automatically shut down – because you can’t keep producing huge amounts of electricity when there is no circuit for it to flow thru, nowhere for it to go. Most nuclear power plants have a backup safety system (one of several) that allows key instrumentation, pumps, control rods, etc., to be operated by electricity produced by the decay heat of the reactor itself running a small turbine. Cold startup is another issue, however, and does require power because at that point, of course, the reactor isn’t producing any to speak of.
Rossi’s contraption, since it doesn’t produce electricity, would reasonably be expected to need some offsite power. The issue, however, seems to be a question of whether it really produces more energy than it takes in, including considerations of conventional chemical reactions which could account for the heated water rather than any new method of generating heat. I wouldn’t expect Rossi to provide exact details of inner workings at this point – but what seems problematic is whether the actual input and output of the contraption is being accurately measured, and whether it actually operated long enough to be beyond the point of a simple chemical reaction. It seems that those issues ought to be pretty easily measured, actually measured – and this seems to be lacking in all of the accounts I’ve read. I’d sure love it if this thing panned out – but am awfully skeptical, especially considering Rossi’s apparent history of fraud or scams.
Mr. Rossi could just for a few seconds remove some shielding to show the presence of “thermal gamma rays.” He won’t.
Another reason to doubt his credibility, Rossi’s engineering degree is from Kennsington, a defunct California diploma mill.
Following Jed Rothwell (hopeful-critical)
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/index.html#53789
and Steven Krivit (doubtful-critical)
http://blog.newenergytimes.com/
For a while now inclines me to Krivit’s explanation of the Rossi saga.
I wonder if LENR and climate research have both been negatively skewed by politics. I wonder if CAGW and Rossi aren’t two sides of the same debased coin – bureaucratic and conformist – individualistic and reckless.
NASA et al consider LENR the most promising of all new energy research and I want WUWT to keep me informed of any developments. It would be a shame though if its reputation were maligned by Rossi’s overconfidence that publicity and its money can turn the seeming into the demonstrable. Perhaps in the way CAGW researchers view their work.
I hope I am wrong about Rossi.
If he did that, and demonstrated gamma, his device would be classified as a gamma source. The device would from that point onward, require strict and uncompromising license. I think he wants to get a little farther in development, before engaging that Hydra monster. GK
Here’s the other thing that keeps nagging at me – where is the nuclear regulatory agency? If they felt there was any chance this was actually a fusion device, they’d be all over it, and Rossi would be jumping thru many many hoops in terms of licensing, permitting, safety regulations, dosimetry, etc., etc.
If, by some miracle considering todays concerns about terrorism etc., the agency responsible has just ‘missed’ this, then Rossi risks massive legal problems for not following the appropriate laws and protective measures for both employee’s and anyone who goes to watch one of his demonstrations. Frankly, I find it hard to believe that this has just been overlooked by the applicable agency…
Look at what happened to the guy who was supposedly trying to do cold fusion experiments in his kitchen – was that in Norway? Anyhow, the police swooped in and promptly scooped him up, as they would in pretty much any developed nation. But Rossi can go around promoting his device, holding quazi public displays with bystanders, and there’s nothing, no response or presence? It doesn’t make much sense. This would seem to imply that they’ve looked into it and don’t believe there is any radioactivity or nuclear reaction of any sort occurring.
The flip side of course is if regulatory agencies know or are pretty sure it’s not what’s claimed, then why aren’t they going after him for fraud? It’s a conundrum.
Mr. Karst, Mr. Rossi already claims the reactor of his device generates gamma rays internally but like most of his claims offers no proof that it does. I don’t know about the regulations in EU but in most states he already would be subject to laws around radiation sources if what he claims is true.
Of course, it is already known that Rossi spent time in jail for previous law breaking (fraud and tax evasion). Perhaps you know more about the lab that mysteriously burned down?
Rossi is a convicted felon with an engineering degree from a diploma mill. He makes a great claim of a “new energy source” but offers no more than amateurish “measurements” as proof.
re post by: G. Karst says: November 27, 2011 at 7:23 pm
Simply not demonstrating the presence of radiation doesn’t get him out from under a mountain of legal requirements for handling and dealing with anything that produces or contains radiation. He’s claiming that its a fusion reactor – e.g., clearly has knowledge of it’s radioactive/nuclear aspects, and should therefore be bound by everything he would just as if he had demonstrated actual gamma ray production.
I hadn’t reloaded the page and seen G. Karst’s November 27, 2011 at 7:23 pm post when I wrote my November 27, 2011 at 7:38 pm post – but clearly we were thinking somewhat along the same lines albeit with a different take on the issue.
Give me a break.
If the gizmo were producing gamma radiation, that would be confirmation that actual fusion was occurring, and Rossi would be announcing it with gusto.
Far from shying away from the licensing process, it would be proof of the reaction.
And, if you believe it is doing what Rossi claims, you would assume that the gamma rays were indeed being produced. Denying their existence to avoid regulatory interference seems odd to me.
Are you telling us the whole story, or only part of the story, or only that part of the story that paints a particular individual in the worst light you at this moment can imagine or conjure up for public consumption (this assumes you are not following ‘talking points’ issued by your handlers or ‘masters’ and are capable of some level of independent thinking or rationality)?
a) Yes or No: 1973, Rossi graduated in Philosophy of Science and Engineering at the University of Milan with a dissertation on Albert Einstein’s Theory of Relativity and its interrelationship with Husserl’s Phenomenology (Honors Degree).
b) Yes or No: 1979, Rossi was awarded a degree in Chemical Engineering from Kensington University, California (USA), thanks to the numerous professional credits earned there for the many registered patents he acquired since the first years of his professional career.
.
R. Shearer.
Whether Rossi measures the supposed gamma radiation inside his flimsy “shielding” or outside it will make no practical difference because the gamma rays produced by Nickel-Hydrogen fusion peak at around 8 MeV.
Without the shielding, a uniform 10 kW gamma source delivers 100 W of gamma radiation (1 Sievert/second or 100 REM/second) to someone standing 2 meters away. The LD50 dose (50% chance of death) would be delivered in 5-10 seconds depending on how much of the radiation passes through.
At 8 MeV, lead shielding reduces the radiation by a factor of ten for each additional 2″ (Tenth Value Layer at normal incidence = ~2″). Even if the gamma radiation is by some miracle converted to a lower energy it does not help much. The TVL is roughly 1″ for 2 MeV gammas.
If Rossi was a “Radiation Worker” subject to US regulations he would be limited to 5.7 micro-Sieverts/hour (5.7 mREM/hour). The shielding required would therefore be 1/5.7 times 3,600,000 or roughly 6 TVLs. Somewhere between 6″ and 12″ of lead. If I was standing where he was in the Bologna videos I would want 2 feet of lead shielding as a minimum.
From the start Rossi has behaved like a scam artist. Lubos Motl is too kind when he suggests that he may be self deluded. It can hardly have escaped Rossi’s notice that his device works just the same whether the hydrogen cylinder is full or empty.
Coffee makers don’t need hydrogen gas.
P.S. My calculations are “back of the envelope” based on an admittedly fallible memory. I hope someone out there with the latest computer codes will take the time to check my numbers.
Forget about Rossi!
Give the device a chance. There are serious people working on this from various angles. Such work is undertaken over very serious people’s objections. They have the same worries as FOIA leaker has about losing control. GK
Oooops! It is way past my bed time. 5.7 micro-Sieverts/hour is 0.57 mREM/hour so add another TVL to the shielding making it 7″ to 14″ thick. Mea Culpa! I usually err on the safe side.
All of this discussion hinges largely on whether or not LENR works; whether it even exists. To clear up the confusion, a Dr. Ahern* has announced that on December 7th he will be presenting details on nano-magnetism that will explain the “mystery” behind LENR.
http://citi5.org/launch/?p=1826
*Brian Ahern received his PhD in material science from MIT, holds 26 patents and was a senior scientist for 17 years in research and development at USAF Rome Lab at Hanscom Air Force Base. Ahern was the U.S. Air Force’s expert on nano-materials. Ahern has discovered the LENR phenomenon is occurring on the nanoscale and involves a formerly misunderstood and rarely explored attribute of nano-magnetism.
But it looks like this whole subject is way beyond Lubos Motl–if he’s looking for X-Rays it doesn’t discredit Rossi; it simply demonstrates Lubos knows nothing about the subject of LENR.
And as blowback to most of the rest of you deniers (I wouldn’t dream of using the far more elevated term “skeptic”), I suggest you stick to weather, climate, hockeysticks–you know, things we’ll still be arguing about even after your grandkids have taken over your keyboards and they’ve released the 40th Climategate, and leave the heavy lifting to those realists willing to…well, you know… do the heavy lifting.
Where are the neutrons? If indeed there are fusion reactions, there will be neutrons. The mention of looking for x-rays is a tip-off that they should tighten up their radiation protection program. X-rays are a product of high voltage electronic discharge in a vacuum. Gamma rays are a product of nuclear reactions and radioactive decay. Neutron shielding would require low atomic number materials like polyethylene, not lead.
carol smith says: November 27, 2011 at 12:48 pm
and the other, Black Power. that involves Randell Mills. ”
I think you mean Black Light Power. http://www.blacklightpower.com/
As to if this works I am leaning towards it being real if somewhat wrongly labeled as cold fusion. If this is a scam it is the worst run one in history and has taken in more qualified people than I would have thought possible. It still could be but the results from BLP at university testing show our understanding of interactions at that level are not complete. I’m not sure I agree with Dr Mills hydrino theory either but it is very interesting reading.
Time will tell.
Mr Watts and Mr Werme need to be thanked for this. It is Mr Watts’ blog and he can post what he likes. It makes for stimulating discussion like some of the points Mr Werme raised and others both pro and con.
I do find that as blogs become more generalized they lose effectiveness. That is why I support Mr Watts curtailment of OT stuff like LENR, HAARP, 9/11 & chemtrails even though I find those topics fascinating. There are lots of other sites covering those topics in a lot more depth than could be done here.
Stay focused but not close minded to possibilities.
Getting to be quite the fashion:
http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/11/defkalion-claims-to-have-what-they-call.html
Ric Werme said “I’m going to completely skip Luboš’ analysis of pressure and steam temperature. ”
Well, there goes the scientific method.
R. Shearer:
Rational Debate:
None of the materials used to construct this device are prescribed nuclear materials. There is nothing to license. It only emit gamma if it works and that is only rumored to be true – so far.
I may claim that my tin foil hat emits gamma, however the NRA is not going to demand I license my hat, on someone saying so. However, if you are qualified in gamma measurement and report a measured gamma contact rate of 80 millirem – they are going to be all over me like a fat kid on smarties.
So if I want to keep my tin foil hat, I cannot allow anyone near it with a gamma meter while operating. At least until I’m prepared for the license quagmire.
Also Rossi claims the catalyst can be identified by it’s gamma spectral analysis.
Don’t forget… As shown by apparent faster than light neutrinos, there are anomalies at this quantum level, which may be exploitable. GK
To those who are wondering about the power supply: the E-CAT isn’t hooked up to the mains power, it’s hooked up to a diesel generator. This much is apparent from the videos posted of the Oct 28th 1 MW test that only came out to 470 kW due to an unspecified glitch.
Happily enough, I was able to identify the generator from the video, or at least narrow it down to 2 very closely related possibilities. It’s either an IVECO 8281 SRi 27 in a “silenced” enclosure, or an IVECO 8281 SRi 26, also in a sound-reducing enclosure. At 50 Hz (which is what Italy uses) the SRi 27 is rated for 500 kW, while the SRi 26 is good for 400 kW.
If the generator is operating at 60 Hz (if you’re just running heating elements, then why not up the frequency?), then the ratings jump to 510 kW for the -27 and 495 kW for the -26, both at 1800 rpm.
I don’t think the SRi 26 is available in the particular enclosure shown; so if I had to guess I’d say it’s an SRi 27 that the E-CAT is hooked up to.
So basically I just wanted to point out that the generator that the E-CAT is hooked up to can only be one of two models, both of which are rated for more than the claimed 470 kW claimed by Rossi.
I can’t help but find that a bit suspicious. He certainly doesn’t need a 500 kW generator just to run some pumps, fans, and electronics.
There seems to be many errors here.
LENR are not understood, so don’t introduce pseudo-conditions, liker presence of neurons, gamma… it is like saying that to find a hot place on a new planet you have to find palm-trees and surfer…
anyway I won’t be surprised if the gamma are not so important, and maybe absent… Rossi is positively stone-head but not very rigorous… it is the kind of personality needed to do the job of heretic in todays world.
the most surprising is that many of the serious critics came from people working in the domain of LENR, having their own device under development.
If they are right, anyway LENR exist and works. if they lie, they simply are jealous competitors.
so the possibility of LENR not existing is very low (p=0.01).
if rossi is not lying, he have strong problem of industrialization, that seems to be being solved by partners (client, National Instrument).
Defkalion pretend to have solved them too…
if it is a scam, defkalion is a partner, and it is not possible if Defkalion GT is a real company.
my only credible option about E-cat being a scam, is that al is a big manipulation on Internet, with fake clients, fake Defkalion, manipulated journalists, manipulated scientists…
the 911 complot, or fake US Moon walk, is not less credible.
the only serious things that support the scam hypothesis is that the finance market does not react (killing solar companies, wind generator company, nuclear reactors companies)…
but stupidity is not to exclude. finance people feel they are smart. this fake-feeling is a symptom of cocaine and sociopath personality too. basically they anticipate mostly themselves.
We have a Quooker at home that stores water under pressure at 110C for instant boiling water for tea and coffee etc. I cannot get power out of it but it does need 1600W to sustain this water at the correct temperature. (Sarc off)
It is a good bit of kit and saves my wife putting the kettle on and going out to do some gardening. Kettle boils dry and process started again for that elusive cup of coffee. Now instant cup of coffee any time day or night.
MrV says:
October 29, 2011 at 2:57 am
A youtube commentor suggested the generator model is a IVECO GSC400EA
Output 400kW.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Generators are usually rated in KVA not KW. hence, the Iveco GSC400EA would have a real maximum output of 400KVA x 0.8 = 320KW.
Rossi claimed a power output of nearly 500KW thermal from the e-cat. Besides, electrical power was being dissipated by the water pumps and condensor cooling fans, besides the electrical heating (1/6th of the ecat’s designoutput of 1MW=166KW) required to kick off the e-cat.
Of course this is based on Rossi’s claims, but fact is that his arithmetic seems to add up.