The Reef Abides

Guest Post by Willis Eschenbach

I love the coral reefs of the planet. In my childhood on a dusty cattle ranch in the Western US, I decorated my mental imaginarium of the world with images of unbelievably colored reefs below white sand beaches, with impossibly shaped fish and strange, brilliant plants. But when I finally first got to dive on the reefs, some forty years ago now, I found that my wildest imagination was only a pale, sickly phantasm compared to the real reef, the real beach, and the real sea life around it. It is a marvel of rioting color and exploding life where I have spent many happy hours, mesmerized.

Figure 1. Thousands of different types of living creatures together form the coral reef environment. SOURCE

Unfortunately, coral reefs are supposed to be threatened by increasing CO2. It’s supposed to make the various animals’ carbonate skeletons and shells dissolve, by decreasing the “pH” of the ocean (pH is a measure of relative alkalinity/acidity) and thus making the seas more neutral than they are today. Careful chemical calculations based on the complex carbonate chemistry of the ocean are said to prove that, no question. Aquarium tests are said to have shown it beyond a doubt, with statistically significant results. The claim has been repeated ad nauseam … and yet the reefs are thriving where they are not impacted by true threats like pollution and coral mining and curiously, the killing of parrotfish.

I have long held that the chemistry of the ocean was not ruled by the chemical energetics of the hundreds of various reversible reactions. That is the generally held view, that the ocean is ruled by chemistry. I hold the contrasting view, that the chemistry is not the last link in the chain. I say that the chemistry of the ocean is in turn ruled by life, and not the other way around as is the common assumption.

An early piece of evidence that shaped this view was when I found out that the pH of the water over a reef is not driven by chemistry, nor by the partial pressure of CO2 in the air. It is driven by the reef itself, which is a net producer of CO2. In other words, the biological products of the reef creatures themselves cause the water over the reef to move from more to less alkaline, often on a short time span. In one study the pH of the reef water changed by one full pH unit (1000% change) in 12 hours … and yet climate researchers breathlessly forecast dire consequences from much smaller pH changes than that spread out over a century, not 12 hours. From my experience with life in the ocean, and from my research, I am much more confident in the adaptability and tenacity of life than those researchers seem to be.

Figure 2. Cross section through a coral colony showing the living polyps, along with the carbonate skeleton built by the polyp. SOURCE

So I was interested to come across a research paper (paywalled, alas) with the unwieldy name of “Acclimation to ocean acidification during long-term CO2 exposure in the cold-water coral Lophelia pertusa.” 

Abstract

Ocean acidity has increased by 30% since preindustrial times due to the uptake of anthropogenic CO2 and is projected to rise by another 120% before 2100 if CO2 emissions continue at current rates. Ocean acidification is expected to have wide-ranging impacts on marine life, including reduced growth and net erosion of coral reefs. Our present understanding of the impacts of ocean acidification on marine life, however, relies heavily on results from short-term CO2 perturbation studies.

Here we present results from the first long-term CO2 perturbation study on the dominant reef-building cold-water coral Lophelia pertusa and relate them to results from a short-term study to compare the effect of exposure time on the coral’s responses. Short-term (one week) high CO2 exposure resulted in a decline of calcification by 26-29% for a pH decrease of 0.1 units and net dissolution of calcium carbonate.

In contrast, L. pertusa was capable to acclimate to acidified conditions in long-term (six months) incubations, leading to even slightly enhanced rates of calcification. Net growth is sustained even in waters sub-saturated with respect to aragonite. Acclimation to seawater acidification did not cause a measurable increase in metabolic rates. This is the first evidence of successful acclimation in a coral species to ocean acidification, emphasizing the general need for long-term incubations in ocean acidification research. To conclude on the sensitivity of cold-water coral reefs to future ocean acidification further ecophysiological studies are necessary which should also encompass the role of food availability and rising temperatures.

I don’t have the full paper yet, but let me briefly discuss the abstract. The main message I see there is, the reef abides. The plants and animals of the ocean abide. The creatures that form carbonate shells and structures are tough and tenacious, they can do things we haven’t imagined. Their lifespan is often short enough to allow for evolution in human rather than geological time. They are able to change and modify, to adapt in response to changing water conditions. In addition, a healthy reef contains not just the dominant species in any given ecological niche, but a host of competing species. If it gets a bit warmer or colder, this alters the balance of the reef’s major simbionts, emphasizing a better-adapted competitor, and the reef keeps going. Even the “bleaching” events so feted by doomsayers are only minor occurrences in the reef’s geological history. Drill down, this has happened in the past. It is the extreme end of the scale of how the reef adapts to changing conditions. It gets rid of its symbionts wholesale, and starts over again. But the reef abides.

Next, a nitpick. The correct description for their claim is that the ocean waters have become more neutral. They have not become “more acidic” as the paper claims. They have moved towards neutrality. They have to pass through neutrality before they can start getting “more acidic”, and the ocean is a long ways from that.

Finally, I doubt greatly that we have anywhere near enough data to make the statement that “Ocean acidity has increased by 30% since preindustrial times”. See the second link above (repeated here http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/06/19/the-electric-oceanic-acid-test/ ) for some of the very scarce real data.

I’ll update this if I can get a copy of the paywalled paper from my undersea connections …

[UPDATE—A denizen of the sub-aquatic world has tapped a trans-oceanic undersea fiber optic cable and sent me the paper, my thanks as always to Davey Jones. My comments follow.]

First, their statement about the so-called increase in ocean acidity is repeated in the body of the paper, but without citation … not good. They assert, without any evidence, that:

Presently the ocean takes up about 25 % of man-made CO2, which has led to a decrease in seawater pH of 0.1 units since 1800.

As mentioned above, that’s sketchy, observations of ocean pH are very scarce. Other than that, however, it is a fascinating paper. The experiment is very well described. They went down in a submersible and picked the coral branches, to assure good specimens and avoid damaging the reef. And also because it would be an awesome trip. They grew the specimens in their lab. Care to know what coral eat? Brine shrimp babies, that’s what, and not only that, they eat them alive, the heartless monsters.

The corals were fed twice a week with live Artemia franciscana (Premium, Sanders) nauplii and once a week with defrosted Cyclops (AD068, amtra Aquaristik) or ground fish flakes (TetraMarine Flakes, Tetra).

So. They did the short-term experiment using air with different amounts of CO2 above the water. The levels they chose were 509, 605, 856, and 981 µatmospheres (approximately, ppmv). This range starts with CO2 levels at about twice the pre-industrial values, and ends at around a thousand ppmv, a level which is extremely unlikely to be reached in this century.

In the short-term experiment (a week), the coral polyps fared very poorly. They failed to thrive, and at the higher levels, the corals’ carbonate skeletons were being eaten away by the high-CO2 water.

Then they did the long-term experiment, ramping up to the higher levels over a period of a few months. In this regard, there is a very revealing comment.

At the beginning, all CRS [the “closed recirculating systems” containing the coral] were supplied with ambient air with a pCO2 level of approx. 406 µatm. After taking water samples for TA [total alkalinity], DIC [dissolved inorganic carbon], and nutrients and measurements of the physicochemical water parameters (temperature, pH, salinity), sampling, the physicochemical parameters (salinity, pH, temperature) of each reactor were monitored by inserting a multi sensor device (Multi350i, WTW) into a small opening in the lid. During incubations, pH and pCO2 [partial pressure of CO2] can change differently in each bioreactor depending on rates of respiration and calcification of the enclosed coral branches. Therefore, the carbonate system parameters (pH, pCO2, ΩAr) and growth rates were calculated separately for each bioreactor.

In other words, what I said above—chemistry is being ruled by life, and not the other way around. The pH and the pCO2 are not simply functions of the amount of CO2 in the overlying air. They are functions of the reef and the reef life itself.

There were other interesting outcomes. In the short-term experiments, there is a statistically significant correlation between increasing CO2 and decreasing calcification rates (growth rates). As CO2 went up, growth went down, and coral skeletons were actually being eroded at the highest CO2 levels. This is a great example of how a statistically significant result can be entirely wrong because the experiment itself is conceptually flawed. The results are statistically significant … but meaningless.

Because in the long-term experiment (six months), the opposite occurred. The corals, once they had time to adapt to the change in pH and CO2 levels, did very well. The study reports:

Growth rates in the long-term experiment (LTE) did not follow the negative trend with increasing pCO2 observed in the short-term incubation. Instead, growth rate, which was comparable to that of the control treatment in the short-term experiment, stayed high at elevated CO2 levels. … Surprisingly, corals maintained in waters sub-saturated with respect to aragonite (CRS3, Tables 4 & 5) displayed the highest average Gr of 1.88 ± 1.34 × 10-2 % d-1. Positive net calcification in waters corrosive to aragonite was also confirmed by measurements of total alkalinity repeatedly performed over the course of the incubation, showing a continuous decrease during the long-term incubation in the highest CO2 treatment. There was no statistically significant relationship between average growth rates and pCO2 concentrations (Kruskal-Wallis ANOVA on ranks, H = 1.46, P = 0.482).

I want to expand on a couple of their statements. First, even when the chemistry predicted that the ocean waters would actively erode and dissolve the coral skeleton … it didn’t happen. In waters where it should have dissolved, it didn’t.

But the most important finding was the final one, which I can paraphrase as:

Coral growth rates are not related to CO2 levels.

It’s not even that CO2 doesn’t affect growth levels much. They’re not related at all. As the paper said,

There was no statistically significant relationship between average growth rates and pCO2 concentrations

Even the highest CO2 levels tested, far above anything in the coming century, couldn’t stop the corals from growing, heck, it didn’t even slow them down. In other words, life wins out once more, against all odds. Gotta love it.

w.

PS—for those interested in the carbonate chemistry of the ocean, there’s a great calculator here.

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105 Comments
Brian H
October 26, 2011 2:20 am

Edit:
“Basically, you’re just bitter,” said Tom acidly.
;p

John Marshall
October 26, 2011 2:28 am

During periods of high atmospheric CO2 in the past 500Ma corals have thrived more with higher CO2 levels. The fossil record clearly shows this.
One of the assumptions of oceanography is that sea water has had the same chemical makeup for sever hundred million years, despite varying atmospheric CO2 levels. There is also a bicarbonate feedback loop which maintains the pH at around 7.7- 8.2 regardless of atmospheric CO2 content. Experiments at Southampton University done to confirm the ‘facts’ about CO2 added HCl to the water because the CO2 solution did not work as they wished.
Also the oceans are no stranger to low pH levels. Black smokers turn the surrounding waters acid with a pH of around 4.5. Molluscs living on them seem impervious to this aggressive water.

Brian H
October 26, 2011 2:59 am

Don K says:
October 26, 2011 at 1:47 am
A final thought. I suspect that if one defined a three dimensional space with ocean pH (or atmospheric CO2 concentration) on one axis, ocean temperature on another, and exposure duration on the third, the region of the space where coral reefs can thrive would form a rather large blob. There would no doubt be areas where adding a little CO2 would push a given reef out of the “blob” and probably others where more CO2 might permit new reefs to form. Unless the “blob” shrinks dramatically or becomes distorted in some weird fashion when one of the parameters is altered , it’s likely that we (humans and corals alike) are somehow gonna survive.

That sounds like a great graphic! I suspect that the blob would occupy the far limits of the duration axis, given how many hundred million years corals have made it thru so far.

Editor
October 26, 2011 3:00 am

Great post, Willis! The reefs will abide quite well. Most marine calcifers love a CO2-rich diet. And the claim of a 30% rise in ocean acidity over the last couple of hundred years is preposterous.
The alarmists claim that anthropogenic CO2 emissions have lowered the average pH of the world’s oceans from 8.2 to 8.1 over the last 250 years; and that future emissions will lower the pH  by 0.3 to 0.4 over the remainder of this century (Dore et al., 2009). What is the basis of this hypothesis?  Systematic measurements of oceanic pH don’t go back much before 1990.  Actual pH measurements are few and far between.  The oceans have probably absorbed at least half of the anthropogenic carbon emissions of the last couple of centuries.  The assertion of CO2-driven ocean acidification appears to he almost entirely based on the rising atmospheric CO2 level. 
Ocean acidification can only occur if Dissolved Inorganic Carbon (DIC) is rising faster than Total Alkalinity (TA).  This nomogram demonstrates the relationship of TA & DIC to pH. According to Dore et al., 2009, “Over the past 250 years, the mean pH of the surface global ocean has decreased from ≈8.2 to 8.1… This acidification of the sea is driven by the rapidly increasing atmospheric CO2 concentration, which results from fossil fuel combustion, deforestation, and other human activities. Models predict that surface ocean pH may decline by an additional 0.3–0.4 during the 21st century”…  A total pH decline of 0.4 to 0.5 (8.2 to 7.7-7.6).
I used a linear regression of the Station Aloha data to estimate TA and DIC at ~275 and ~550 ppmv CO2. If I plot their in situ TA vs in situ DIC and extrapolate it as above (red curve), I get a very strong correlation (R^2=0.72); but I don’t get anything close to a 0.5 to 0.6 pH decline from a doubling of pre-industrial CO2 levels. I get a total decline of 0.16 (8.30 to 8.14) due to a doubling of pre-industrial atmospheric CO2 levels. The only way I get a pH decline comparable to 0.4 to 0.5 is when I use the TA and DIC values that were normalized to a salinity of 35 (blue curve). This yields a pH decline of 0.44 (8.40 to 7.96); but it is a horrible correlation (R^2=0.05). TA and DIC are highly correlated to salinity(R^2=0.88, 0.74).  DIC has a moderate correlation (R^2=0.39) and TA has a weak correlation (R^2=0.12) to atmospheric CO2.
The normalization of TA and DIC to a constant salinity subdues the buffering effect provided by salinity; while amplifying the acidification effect of increasing CO2. A realistic treatment of salinity, yields an insignificant lowering of pH from a doubling of pre-industrial CO2.  Chicken Little of the Sea does not appear to be very dangerous.
Since the pH of reef water routinely varies by more than 0.5 on scales ranging from diurnal to multidecadal, a 0.16 decline over 350 years will be quite abide-able.

View from the Solent
October 26, 2011 3:17 am

As has been pointed out, the lifespan of corals is too short for evolution (changes in genes) to be involved.What we are seeing here is *changes in the expression* of genes that have evolved over 100s of millions of years, those changes being brought about through processes such as methylation, phosphorylation, acetylation, …. [many references on the web, short of time right now], because of changes in external conditions.
Very roughly speaking, those little critturs have seen it all before. Buried in their genes is the memory of how they dealt with it; the right conditions will trigger that memory.

Bloke down the pub
October 26, 2011 4:44 am

As followers of Pratchett know THE TURTLE MOVES

October 26, 2011 7:06 am

Brian H says: October 26, 2011 at 2:20 am
Edit: “Basically, you’re just bitter,” said Tom acidly. ;p
**********
Good one, Brian. A little nerd humor in the morning is a good thing.
Best regards.
Steamboat Jack (Jon Jewett’s evil twin)

October 26, 2011 7:09 am

Thanks Willis, great article.
I don’t agree with the “rapid evolution” part though; more like “rapid adaptation” IMHO.
Keep up the good work!

Dave Dardinger
October 26, 2011 7:23 am

I might as well point out that although we typically say pH for hydrogen ion concentration, H+ ions (a bare proton) don’t exist to any extent in a solution. An acid will transfer an H+ to water producing H3O+ instead. But pH3O is unwieldy, so chemists use pH as an abbreviation.

October 26, 2011 7:36 am

17.Jimmy says:
October 25, 2011 at 4:11 pm
Sorry, but I have to nitpick your nitpick. Since the lowering of pH is caused by the addition of protons, it can be described as becoming “more acidic” regardless of what the initial pH is. A solution that drops from pH 4 to pH 3.5 has become more acidic, that much is clear. But also, a solution that drops from pH 10 to pH 9.5 has also become more acidic, even though it may also be accurately described as becoming more neutral.
I would also think that the biology and the chemistry of the oceans affect each other, and not necessarily that one always causes effects in the other. Then again, I have no data to support this, so maybe I’m completely off.”
I think the main point he’s getting at is people tend to use the scariest wording they can.
“More acidic”, “less alkaline”, and “decreased pH levels” could all mean the same thing.
I’s just that “ocean acidification” sounds worse…

Area Man
October 26, 2011 9:18 am

This gets my vote as the best title for a blog post in 2011 (and perhaps the entire century so far). Love it.

BJ
October 26, 2011 9:43 am

So corals and CO2 are the same as humans and high altitudes? Go up slowly and your body adjusts. Race up and you’ll suffer.

Joshua Corning
October 26, 2011 10:15 am

“DocMartyn says:
October 25, 2011 at 3:24 pm
“Their lifespan is often short enough to allow for evolution in human rather than geological time”
I am sorry, but that is simply not true. You misunderstand the elasticity of an organism, a property that evolved.”
No you are wrong. Take a microbiology class with a lab component. In that lab you will do experiments to force the adaptation of bacteria to antibiotic resistance within a day or less.

oeman50
October 26, 2011 10:48 am

Several comments on buffers were posted. Buffers do not lock in a specific pH, they just dampen the response to it.
And John M has his post on October 25, 2011 at 5:35 pm with the Dr. Lubchenco “demonstration.” What a hoot that was, I saw it streaming live during the hearings. I have rarely seen anyone more uncomfortable was less self-assured when handling chemicals, her practical experience appears to be minimal. And the “demonstration” reminds me of another certain “experiment” with thermometers that Anthony has discussed recently ……..

TomL
October 26, 2011 10:56 am

As for life trumping inorganic chemistry, it has long been accepted that the concentration of oxygen in the atmosphere was negligable until organisms began photosynthesizing. Even then, oxygen could not accumulate in the atmosphere until the buffers (methane and reduced iron) were exhausted.

G. Karst
October 26, 2011 11:08 am

Willis Eschenbach says:
October 25, 2011 at 5:34 pm
…in a system which is measured logarithmically for a good reason—because percentages don’t mean much when we’re speaking of pH…

In nuclear physics we use pH as a percentage, all the time, to determine N protons in flux. However, the percentage has to be applied across the whole practical scale of pH 0 -14. The proton number function is linear, but the numbers are large making the logarithmic scale useful. The pH scale is logarithmic for convenience only. The acid ions to base ions can be expressed as 0 – 100% easily:
pH 0 = 100% = pure acid = (0% hydroxyl) (OH)
pH 7 = 50% = neutral = (50% hydroxl) (OH)
pH 14 = 0% = bure base = (100% hydroxyl) (OH)
Percentage is only useful with regard to the full range of the practical N (H+). The logarithmic pH scale fools many people into the mindset that (N) H+ is logarithmic. It’s not, the scale alone is, making inter-decade percentages, useless. This perspective makes it easy to see, what a small pH change, we are really discussing. I will not argue further on this matter as it seems to attract vile. GK

jae
October 26, 2011 11:51 am

Don K replies:
“If you are somewhat smarter than I, you may be able to work all that out, make everything balance, and figure out exactly what the consequences of increasing atmospheric CO2 would be for shell forming organisms. I have to say that I don’t have the slightest idea on a purely chemical/physical state basis what will happen.”
Thanks for the info. And, no, I’m not smart enough. But I understand that there have been many CO2 pertubations in the past which dwarf the present one, and the reef abides, as Willis says so eloquently. I guess part of the “buffering” is just what Willis described, not just purely a chemical/physical state description.

David Mayhew
October 26, 2011 12:53 pm

Thank you Willis!
Those who are interested to pursue the question of carbonate metabolism by marine organisms might consider the book by Peter Westbroek ” Life as a Geological Force: Dynamics of the Earth”
Norton & Co N.Y. 1991. When it is understood that the gigantic carbonate deposits in rocks are due to biological activity, the remarkable self balancing mechanisms of this planet become even clearer.
dfm
.

G. Karst
October 26, 2011 2:37 pm

The Big Lebowski – (1998) wasn’t it?
The Dude abides (skip to 6 min) GK:
http://youtu.be/TRvmXUrDpwo

John M
October 26, 2011 3:33 pm

Max Hugoson says:
October 25, 2011 at 8:33 pm

John M:
Your link shows up as this:
http://www.jodc.go.jp/info/ioc_doc/Experts/120608eo.pdf#8**
Right now that doesn’t download.
Any advice? Looks like it would be super to have!
Max<blockquote
Max, as Brian H says, it’s a big file, but I notice that for some reason, the web address pasted with an extra asterisk. My version of IE ignores the second asterisk, but if for some reason your browser is including both asterisks, it could be the problem.
Here’s another try.
http://www.jodc.go.jp/info/ioc_doc/Experts/120608eo.pdf#8*

Legatus
October 26, 2011 5:47 pm

Brian H says:
crosspatch says:
Don K, what you say may be true but it is completely irrelevant to the discussion. The point is that regardless of what the exact CO2 number was in the Triassic, it is agreed by all that it was significantly higher than it is now, about 5x higher is the generally agreed to number.

And, to add to the fun, >3X thicker; hence pteranodons and giant dragonflies

This brings to mind this quote”
In Germany the concept of the “Fachidiot” is well know. It describes the chap who knows more and more about less and less, to the point where he is incapable of functioning outside his own narrow field. In the English-speaking world, we recognize the expert as the person who avoids the small pitfalls as he sweeps on to the grand fallacy. The generalist, the person who has experience of diverse areas, and the man with insight are necessary counterbalances to Fachidiocy, for it’s not academic background or endless doctorates which are important in revealing scientific truth: the quality of the arguments is more important.
When people talk about giant flying lizards back then, the ones doing the talking know only about their own little specialty. Thus, they say that these giant lizards could not fly, they must have hung around cliffs at the sea shore to be able to take off. This is because these guys need to get out more, if they would just go down the hall they would find the guy who studies ancient atmospheres and who could tell them that the atmosphere was 3x thicker. Such a thick atmosphere would make it possible to have bigger and heavier flying critters, who would not need cliffs to take off from. It is a silly idea anyway when you think about it, what if the wind stops or shifts and they cannot get back to the cliff, they would never be able to take off again and would die. Such an nonviable critter, who can only live under a small range of conditions that change from day to day could not survive. Thus we can see that an “expert” can get something so wrong that it is ludicrous, if they would even think about it for a minute they would realize that what they believe is laughable. The more ‘expert” they are, in fact, the more likely they are to get it wrong.
It is possible for me to know this when “experts” on these giant flying lizards do not, because I do get out more. Thus, many of the posters on this site can and do know more than many scientists because they get out more. They are generalists, who know more than one small field, who, for instance, have been actual weathermen and had to interact with the data and predict it day to day, or who have actually experienced the tropics and a tropical thunderstorm and the cooling in brings such as the author of this article.
Many “climate scientists” are just closeted model builders, they know little outside their narrow field, they can only put into their model what they know, they do not understand how various things in the climate interact and change each other because they have never experienced that. Plus, making things interact makes it less “scientific” seeming, normal scientists want things like an experiment in a lab, nice and neat, with one viable changing at a time, not with a whole bunch of things changing at the same time which makes it hard to measure anything definite, and especially not a chaotic system. Thus the models are designed like an experiment in a very controlled lab, change thing A and thing B changes, and that is it. They do not want change thing A and thing C changes which then reduces thing A and makes only a small change in B. Example, add CO2, radiant heat hitting ground goes up, it gets warmer, simple, lab like. Not, add CO2 and surface warmth makes more evaporation which makes clouds which make shade which reduces the downward radiation which means the surface warmth only goes up a small amount if at all. That and all the other complicated things in the actual atmosphere are very uncontrolled, they could even be called wild, as apposed to tame. Lab experiments are as controlled as possible, the actual atmosphere is not.
The reason “climate scientists” believe the world will warm with one change ( CO2 ) is because they think the climate is like their model, strictly controlled, tame.
The reason it does not is because it’s not a tame climate.
And the reason they don’t like us is because we also show the characteristic they abhor, we also are not tame.
If only we would get with the program, believe whatever they tell us, follow the path of settled science like nice dumb beasts!
I like the line from the old TV program (which would never be aired today!):
I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My life is my own.
I wonder if giant flying lizards snatched giant dragonflies out of the air?

SteveSadlov
October 26, 2011 6:05 pm

RE: “Ocean acidity has increased by 30% since preindustrial times”
Show me the data and show me the gage R&R analysis. Said analysis would have to not only encompass the measurement gear and technicians, it would also need to encompass other factors such as draw location repeatability, repeatability of location in the water column, draw date repeatability as well as, in no particular order, the degrees to which changes in stratification, currents, cloud cover, plankton blooms etc also impact pH at each draw location. Given all this, it would be a miracle to discern a “signal” of the claimed fractional changes in pH we routinely see in all the “ocean acidification” studies. I would bet dollars to donuts that any self respecting book cooker could wrangle the noise to “prove” their a priori assertion that acidification has occurred en mass (as opposed to, for example, local agricultural fertilizer effluent plumes and the like).