Video analysis and scene replication suggests that Al Gore's Climate Reality Project fabricated their Climate 101 video "Simple Experiment"

UPDATE2 10/18/2011 – The experiment has been replicated several ways, see:

Replicating Al Gore’s Climate 101 video experiment shows that his “high school physics” could never work as advertised

UPDATE: New images added prove without a doubt the faked split screen. See below.

It has been over a week now since the Gore-a-thon aka “24 hours of climate reality”. The front page of the Climate Reality Project has changed from “live mode” to offering clips of video shown during the 24 hour presentation. Note the circled video on the front page below Mr. Gore. I’ve discovered that by watching carefully it reveals an “inconvenient truth” of the worst kind.

Analysis of this “Climate 101” video highlighted on Mr. Gore’s website is something I’ve been working on for the past week and a half. It has been carefully reviewed (with video graphics tools) and has been inspected by a number of science, engineering, and television professionals I’ve had review the video, my video captures, annotations, and writeup to be certain I have not missed anything or come to an erroneous conclusion. It also took me awhile to locate and get the items shipped to me to do the work I needed before I wrote this article. Now that I have them, and have done some simple replications to confirm my suspicions, I can write about them while presenting corroborating photographic evidence.

First, I wish to direct your attention to this video, produced by Al Gore’s Climate Reality Project titled “Climate 101”.  I direct your attention to the 1 minute mark, lasting through 1:20. I suggest you click on the little X-arrow icon to expand full screen of the right of the slider tool bar, since this video is in high-definition and the details of my concerns require that higher resolution to view them properly.

It is worth watching a couple of times to get fully familiar with the sequence.

I’ve been in television broadcasting for over 20 years, and I’m quite familiar with editing tricks, I think I spotted more than a few in the video.

There are five scenes that appear, each an edit in that 20 second span of video during which an experiment is set up which supposedly demonstrates that CO2 in a heated jar causes that jar to be warmer than a second heated jar with ambient air in it.

In that 20 second span, I looked for things that changed, indicating that it wasn’t done in a continuous shot. I found evidence that the scene was changed at least three times, suggesting multiple takes.

The giveaways were that I saw objects change in the scene, most notably the CO2 tank, which has three different rotation positions. See the video captures from the Climate 101 video below, with my annotations. Note the position of the safety valve (1) and the label (2) change (click images for HD resolution):

Climate 101 scene @1:01 –

Climate 101 scene @1:05 –

Climate 101 scene @1:09 –

(UPDATE 10:27AM : spotted by commenter “mkelly” – note the thermometers are reversed in the 1:05 video capture versus the 1:09 video capture – note the green card mark on the thermometer scale as explained further in the story) So clearly, this wasn’t done in one take. By itself, there’s nothing wrong with that, but it did make me wonder why for such a simple sequence (putting the tube in the jar) they had to have three separate edits.

Such a simple thing could surely have been accomplished in a single take. All they would have had to do was zoom the camera in/out as the actor did the work, then take the appropriate scenes from the single shot to the final cut. They could have done several continuous takes and chosen the best one, it just seemed odd they had to keep moving/rotating the bottle to do it. It made me wonder if the experiment maybe didn’t go so well and they had to keep trying it.

These scene discontinuities made me curious, and it made me look further to see what else might have been edited in such a way to reveal that what looks like a continuous flow of scenes…actually isn’t.

I’m glad I did.

Now I know there will be lots of arguments about whether this experiment is a valid test of CO2 greenhouse theory or not. It is deceptively simple, and it fits with the claims of it is “high school physics” made by Al Gore and others before and during the 24 hour Climate Reality Project. His specific claim was:

“The deniers claim that it’s some kind of hoax and that the global scientific community is lying to people,” he said. “It’s not a hoax, it’s high school physics.” – Al Gore in an interview with MNN 9/14/2011

Let’s put the arguments about applicability of the experiment aside for the moment, and just concentrate on what was presented in the experiment section of the video, because there is plenty to look at in the video with a skeptical eye.

One thing that caught my eye after I noticed the edits with the CO2 tank positions changing was the split screen scene with the thermometers side by side, one with temperature rising faster than the other. It is located starting at 1:10 in the video continuing to 1:17 it is the longest “continuous” scene in experiment section of the video, though we all know that thermometers don’t jump up in spurts like that.

I figured at first they just cut down a longer continuous scene, done with two cameras, so that it fit into the time allotted and then rotated from horizontal and edited them in split screen, which are tried and true techniques, and there’s nothing wrong with doing that.

But thanks to the fact that this was shot in HD video, and because I was able to expand the video to full resolution outside of the web page format bounding, I noticed something that gave me reason to doubt the veracity of this section of video. I suspected it had been faked, but it would take me some time and materials to prove it.

One thing that struck me was how clean the image of the two thermometers was. Remember this is an experiment where the two thermometers are placed inside two glass jars. A proper experimental procedure would be to film them while they are inside of the jars, experiencing the conditions of the experiment, in fact, they were presented just like that with a closeup at 1:02 in the video, you can actually read the thermometer scale:

Note this video capture at 1:02 looks quite different from the video at 1:17 showing the thermometers split screen. There are several differences:

1. Throughout the video from 1:00 to 1:20, the thermometers in the jar are shown horizontal, the split screen at 1:17 shows the thermometers vertical.

2. There’s a greenish-yellow background in the split screen at 1:10 to 1:17 which isn’t seen anywhere else in the experiment video at all.

3. The split screen thermometer scene has not a hint of the optical distortion seen at 1:02 in the video. Note that the thermometer scale is distorted by the glass, and if you look closely by expanding the video capture above to full resolution by clicking on it, you’ll see that the tick marks are distorted differently all along the scale. This is what you would expect from thick glass like the jar is made of.

I considered these possibilities for each point above:

1. That was editing to show the thermometers side by side, perfectly acceptable if the edit was done from combining two separate video streams filmed simultaneously on two cameras while the temperature was rising inside the jar. Cutting down the time is also acceptable, which would account for the “spurts”

2. They may have placed a paper or cardboard background behind the thermometers while filming in the jars to make the scales more visible and to remove visual clutter, but didn’t show it in the video. While using such backgrounds is understandable, not showing that you have done so is a bit of a no-no, but it isn’t a deal killer.

3. While I thought about it a lot, I couldn’t reconcile the glass caused optical distortion issue. Why was it missing from the split screen thermometer scene? I decided I couldn’t  answer the question without getting my hands on the objects and re-creating the optical situation with a camera.

That took some doing, because Al’s “high school physics” experiment didn’t come with a bill of materials and list of suppliers. So, in my spare time I started looking for the jars, the thermometers, and the globes so that I could exactly recreate the experiment scene.

I found them all, thanks to Google visual image search and Ebay.

Replicating the scene – materials:

Anchor Hocking Cookie Jar with Lid http://www.cooking.com/products/shprodde.asp?SKU=187543

Geratherm Oral Thermometer Non-Mercury

http://www.pocketnurse.com/Geratherm-Oral-Thermometer-Non-Mercury/productinfo/06-74-5826/

Globe Coin Bank

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150661053386

It took a few days for everything to arrive from the three different suppliers, here they are all together on my desk at work, I actually bought two sets:

What I wanted to do was to recreate the closeup shot like we see in the video at 1:02 to see if I saw similar optical distortions, then see if there was any way that I could get a clear closeup view of the thermometer scale like we see in the split screen at 1:10-1:17.

My theory was that the thermometers aren’t actually in the jar when they were photographed for the split screen.

Checking for optical aberrations:

I used a piece of double-sided foam tape to affix the thermometer:

Here’s a closeup of the thermometer affixed to the globe. Note how clear and distortion free the scale is.

Here’s my attempts at photography of the thermometer inside the jar. I had a lot of trouble getting focused on the thermometer scale due to the autofocus mechanism being distracted by the glass which is in the foreground. Note that you can see the optical aberrations caused by the glass on the thermometer scale. The scale is not straight and the tick marks are also distorted.

Here’s another photo – I could not get the macro view focus right due to the glass confusing the autofocus sensor:

I decided that my camera was inadequate for this particular task, so I called in a someone who has a professional camera with a high quality professional lens capable of manual focus and macro function. It is a far cry from my little Kodak Easy Share Z1012 used to make the photos above:

  • Camera – Canon 1D Mark IV
  • Lens – Canon MACRO 100mm 1:2.8 L IS USM

Just as I did with my clunky little Kodak camera, the photographer had a lot of trouble getting a clear shot through the glass. Below is a collection of shots done by that photographer at different distances and focus settings on the professional camera. Note that I also rotated the jar to see is different sections made anything clearer. Click any thumbnail to enlarge it (warning large download ~ 10MB each)

The professional photography setup also could not capture an image through the glass jar that looked as clear as what was shown by my photo with the thermometer outside the glass, or as clear as the split screen images presented in the Climate 101 video from 1:10 to 1:17. I invite readers to inspect the images above carefully, examine the EXIF data of the unedited original JPEG images presented at the native resolution of the Canon 1D camera at 4296×3264 pixels and examine for yourselves if it is possible to shoot the thermometer scale through the glass and get an image that is free from any distortions.

Neither I nor the professional photographer could get a clear image through the jar glass that matched the clarity of the thermometer scales seen in the split screen, so I am forced to conclude that in the split screen scene from 1:10 to 1:17 on the Climate 101 video, the thermometers are not in the jars.

But wait, there’s more.

The background behind the thermometers:

Remember point 2 above where I was concerned about the greenish-yellow background in the split screen at 1:10 to 1:17 which isn’t seen anywhere else in the experiment video from 1:00 to 1:20? Well, there’s something odd about that too. The background appears identical in both sides of the split screen. What first tipped me off was a speck on the thermometer.

Here’s a video capture from the start of the split screen sequence. I’ve highlighted something I found curious, a speck on the thermometer scale that appears on both thermometers:

At first I thought it was dust, but then I realized that wasn’t possible, as dust would NOT appear identically on both thermometers in the split screen. I surmised it might be a manufacturing defect, printed on the scale. Fortunately, I have two thermometers from the same manufacturer that I can compare to. Here’s my closeup of them:

Nope, no speck, so it isn’t a manufacturing defect common to all thermometers.

========================================================

Side note: Note above in the thermometer closeup how the scales are offset, this is due to the manufacturer hand calibrating these glass thermometers by trimming the card with the scale printed on it so 98.6 lines up with the top of the fluid line when the thermometers are placed in the temperature test well. Glassblowing is an inexact science, and each thermometer must be calibrated by a technician, then sealed. You can see how the cards don’t match here:

We can see this in the Climate 101 video also:

The green section of the card for the scale is clearly different lengths as part of the trimming process for calibration, so clearly we have two different thermometers.

========================================================

OK, back to the main issue.

In addition to the identical speck on the two thermometer scales, I noted several other identical specks and aberrations in the split screen video. I’ve listed them by number on two video captures below from two different times in the video (click images to enlarge for best viewing):

Climate 101 video @1:10 –

Climate 101 video @1:16 –

I have 8 labeled points that are identical between each frame @1:10 and @ 1:16 In fact they are identical on every video frame from 1:10 to 1:17. The only thing that changes is the blue liquid in the thermometer tube.

  1. Dots on left top glass edge match exactly
  2. Speck on right top glass edge matches exactly
  3. Smudge/discoloration near number “38” on scale matches exactly
  4. Speck in background matches exactly
  5. Speck near number 98 on scale matches exactly
  6. Tick mark pattern near number “36” matches exactly
  7. Smudge in background matches exactly
  8. Reflective highlight in glass tube matches exactly
  9. While not numbered, note how the background shading matches exactly

Conclusions

With 9 points of agreement between the two images through all video frames there is only one possible conclusion:

The split screen is showing the same piece of video, shot by a single camera and edited to make it appear as two separate pieces of video with two separate thermometers. All that is required is to apply edits along different portions of the timeline. It is the same video shot by the same camera on each side of the split screen.

Summary of what was discovered:

  1. The video of the experiment showing filling of the jar with CO2 was shot in multiple takes because the CO2 cylinder has three different positions between 1:00 and 1:10. It suggests the experiment didn’t go smoothly and had to be repeated.
  2. The thermometers in the split screen appear not to have been filmed through the glass of the jars, because the split screen video contains no optical aberrations of any kind. Neither myself nor the photographer with professional gear was able to get clear shots through the jar glass that equaled the clarity of the thermometer scales shown in the split screen video. This strongly suggests the thermometers were never in the jars for the split screen video showing temperature rise.
  3. The greenish-yellow background in the split screen at 1:10 to 1:17 isn’t seen anywhere else in the experiment video at all, and not in the jars, suggesting it was used only for that scene, which also suggests the thermometers were never in the jars for the split screen video sequence.
  4. The video of the split screen shows two identical backgrounds, and two identical thermometers with 9 points of exact agreement in the backgrounds and the thermometers. Clearly the split screen contains two copies of the same video from one camera, edited in the timeline to make the liquid in the thermometer rise at different rates.

The only conclusion one can make from these four points is that the video of the “simple experiment” is a complete fabrication done in post production.

I’ve double checked my work, and I’ve had other people look at this video and the points I make and they see the same issues. They concur the video of the experiment was fabricated using editing techniques too.

While everyone can make mistakes (I know, I’ve made some big ones myself), this isn’t a case of a simple mistake, its a production that had to have been screened and approved before releasing it. It is mind blowing that this video, which was intended to be shown to millions of people (recall that Mr. Gore’s claim was 8.6 million views), was not clearly identified as an illustration or artistic license and not a true record of an experiment if that was their intent. Yet, they invite viewers to try replicating it themselves.

This level of fabrication on something that is so simple makes me wonder. Mr. Gore claimed in the MNN interview on 9/14 that:

“It’s not a hoax, it’s high school physics.”

Why then, does Mr. Gore’s organization go to such lengths to fabricate the presentation of the “simple high school physics experiment” they say proves the issue in that venue? Perhaps they couldn’t get the experiment to work properly using the materials chosen?  Maybe it might not be so easy to perform at home after all? Maybe a few controls are necessary such as the Mythbusters team used in the video below. Why else would they need to fake it in post?

Even if Mr. Gore and his team wanted to claim “artistic license” for editing the video for the experiment, why would they do so if it is so easy to replicate and do yourself? The narrator, Bill Nye the Science Guy actually invites people to do so at about 0:46 in the video. Why not simply do the experiment and record the results for all to see? Of course a one word lower third caption on the video at that point saying “DRAMATIZATION” would be all that was needed to separate a real experiment from one fabricated in post production – but they didn’t do that. I’ve watched the film several times, checked the audio, and the credits at the end. There is no mention nor notice of any dramatization regarding the “simple experiment” segment that I can find.

If Mr. Gore’s team actually performed the experiment and has credible video documenting the success of his simple “high school physics” exercise, I suggest that in the interest of clarity, now is the time to make it available.

About the experiment:

So far all I’ve concentrated on is the stagecraft I observed. It’s clearly obvious that the split screen scene with thermometers was not filmed inside the cookie jars. I’ve established that it is a staged production from start to finish and the split screen of two thermometers but was edited from a continuous video of a single thermometer with temperature rising then frame sequences were inserted out of order to compose each side of the split screen.

Of course the whole Climate 101 CO2 experiment is questionable to begin with, because it doesn’t properly emulate the physical mechanisms involved in heating our planet. Note the heat lamps used, likely one of these based on the red color we see in the lamp fixture:

Heat lamps like this produce visible red light and short wave infrared (SWIR is 1.4-3 µm wavelength). As we know from the classic greenhouse effect, glass blocks infrared so none of the SWIR was making it into the cookie jar. All that would do is heat the glass. John Tyndall’s 1850’s experiments used rock salt windows, which transmit infrared, for exactly that reason. Adding insult to injury, CO2 has no SWIR absorption bands. What CO2 does have though is higher density than air. The gas in the cookie jars was primarily heated by conduction in contact with the SWIR-heated glass.

Moreover, the CO2 injection in one cookie jar would raise it from 0.04% CO2 to very near 100% CO2 which is hardly comparable to the atmosphere going from 0.03% to 0.04% CO2 during the industrial age. Gore’s team provides no indication of the concentration of CO2 in the jar, that’s hardly scientific. Here’s how current greenhouse theory works:

Graphic by Ira Glickstein, PhD. for WUWT - click image for source article

All that said, in principle it does demonstrate that CO2 absorbs long wave infrared (LWIR 8–15 µm). Energy would likely be transmitted into the gas through conduction with the heated glass (which would likely get very hot) and it would then re-radiate inside the cookie jar as LWIR, and cause the CO2 jar to heat up faster and higher. But this is hardly news. The LWIR absorptive characteristics of many different gases under different pressures and mixtures was experimentally verified in thousands of experiments performed by Tyndall 150 years ago.

With this apparatus Tyndall observed new chemical reactions produced by high frequency light waves acting on certain vapors. The main scientific interest here, from his point of view, was the additional hard data it lent to the grand question of the mechanism by which molecules absorb radiant energy. Image: Wikipedia

This characteristic of CO2 is the theory of operation for millions of CO2 sensors routinely employed in commercial buildings with high occupancy rates to determine when ventilation fans should turn on and off to exhaust the CO2 buildup from a lot of people breathing the same air in a confined space.

So while some might say the stagecraft involved in the Climate 101 presentation wasn’t dishonest it was most assuredly staged with great literary license and dramatization of an effect that was experimentally verified elsewhere with far greater precision and attention to replicating the real world.

I should make it clear that I’m not doubting that CO2 has a positive radiative heating effect in our atmosphere, due to LWIR re-radiation, that is well established by science. What I am saying is that Mr. Gore’s Climate Reality Project did a poor job of demonstrating an experiment, so poor in fact that they had to fabricate portions of the presentation, and that the experiment itself (if they actually did it, we can’t tell) would show a completely different physical mechanism than what actually occurs in our atmosphere.

If Mr. Gore wants to convince the world, he’d do far better at emulating the Mythbusters TV show; show all the materials, steps, measurement, and results like they do.

As it stands, the video fabrications in the “simple experiment” by Mr. Gore’s Climate Reality Project is no better than the stagecraft done by Senator Tim Wirth turning off the air conditioning (to make it hot in the room) when Dr. James Hansen testified before lawmakers in June 1988 about CO2 being a problem.

The public, and especially young budding scientific minds, deserve better than stagecraft.

Of course LWIR radiative CO2 heat retention is only a small part of the global warming issue. There are still raging debates over climate sensitivity, uncertainty, feedbacks, and most recently whether clouds provide positive or negative feedbacks in our atmosphere.

But from my point of view, if everything is so certain, the science so settled, why does Mr. Gore resort to these cheap stagecraft tricks to convince people?

UPDATE: In comments, Mariss Freimanis runs a Photoshop difference analysis, proving the split screen image is the same. He emailed his analysis to me, shown below.

analysis_before
analysis_right_thermo

From Mariss

1) I have attached ‘analysis_before’ which is a cropped shot of your original with it’s circles and arrows.

2) The ‘analysis_right_thermo’ is the right thermometer overlaid already positioned to overlay the the left thermometer.

3) The ‘image_analysis_after’ shows the results of subtracting away the right overlay from the underlying left image.

Comments:

1) The  attached jpegs are reasonably sized in the sense that they don’t throw away any information. The ‘after’ image black area still contains some residual ‘non-black’ background noise from the subtraction process. This is largely due to my choice of a times-4 repixelation of the original. The image offset was not precisely 0.25 pixels so it reflects some residual image alignment errors.

2) This method reveals minute differences between two images. For the background to be as featureless as it is, it requires both thermometer’s reflections to be identically lit from the exact same light source angle (parallel ray source), their seemingly identical mottled green backgrounds to actually be identical and of course, the thermometers would have to have exactly the same ‘fingerprint’ flaws. It would take one hell of a telephoto lens to see both thermometers from exactly the same perspective. This is inconceivable.

3) The 0.25 pixel offset drift is significant because it reveals the same thermometer was used to sequentially film the composite image. Little things change with time such as thermal expansion. It marks the passage of time. That drift indicates they weren’t filmed simultaneously.

For those that might be concerned about the images above not being full resolution HD and having annotations, here’s the before and after difference image at 1:17 in the video:

original video capture - click to enlarge
difference process run at full resolution - click to enlarge

Note the only thing that changes is the fluid level and the reflection of it (thin line to the right) in the glass tube. This proves the “result” split screen is the same image, not two thermometers showing results.

5 1 vote
Article Rating

Discover more from Watts Up With That?

Subscribe to get the latest posts sent to your email.

761 Comments
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Speros
October 2, 2011 7:53 pm

All of these discussions about microns and absorption and laying down challenges, whilst interesting and amusing, are missing the point of Anthony’s topic.
The simple fact that has been expertly demonstrated, is that the Climate Change 101 ‘demonstration’ was rigged. Period.
And why would Al Gore’s team do that? There are a number of possible reasons, and with no explanations forthcoming from the team that produced the video, we can only speculate.

John Brookes
October 2, 2011 8:41 pm

Is this another “final nail in the coffin”?
Or perhaps a slightly silly demo?
BTW, thanks for the video. It was interesting.

October 2, 2011 11:24 pm

Henry@Rolf
Rolf, I had this argument before with those of the AGW cloth. I am sorry that I thought you were one of them. Look at this presentation here:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Solar_Spectrum.png
I found out that this graph is vaild for a clear day, no clouds.
Note that a large % of the sun’s radiation is bumbed off from the earth by the atmosphere, mostly by the combined efforts of O3, O2, CO2 and H2O. This is due to re-radiation back radiation or call it what you want.
I am standing here in the African sun and the truth is that I cannot stand in the sun for longer then 10 minutes because of the sun’s heat on my skin. This direct “heat” that I can feel is due to the sun’s IR 1.5 – 5 um, don’t you agree? My point is that without the CO2 in the air, and less humidity, I would get even more heat on top of my head. In fact, I can feel a difference in the heat on my skin when even just there is less or more humidity in the air. Now some people were arguing with me that the parts of the sunshine “absorbed” (deflected) by the CO2, even when added all together, is insignicant compared to the 14-16 um absorption of the CO2 which traps some of the earth’s radiation. I ask you to prove that to me. I need to see some test results on that. I want to know excactly how much the CO2 is cooling and how much it is warming,
in W/m2/0.01% CO2/ m3/24hours
It would also help if we could determine how much the CO2 is cooling by taking part in the life cycle.
In the end we have to add everything together and look at the net effect of an increase in CO2.
Failing that, you have to at least agree with me that the experiment in a closed box is just a continuation of the same errors made by Tyndall and Svante Arrhenius – which is why they came up with the wrong formula’s in the first place.
The climate 101 experiment is a complete mis-representation of the science invloved.
My own investigations so far, by studying data from weather stations, show that there is no warming due to an increase in GHG’s.
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/more-carbon-dioxide-is-ok-ok

October 3, 2011 12:21 am

J Calvert N;
As a side note, observe the absorption spectrum of methane in that second graph you posted. It is minuscule compared to CO2, not the “21X” so often touted. It seems that figure is concocted by adding the absorptions of the BURN products* of CH4, were it BURNED. Which is not what happens in the atmosphere.
Anthony;
About Myrrh;
It’s a pity, since he’s relatively sane on other topics, but has long since talked himself into permanent mental blockage on radiative thermodynamics. Neither detailed explanations nor appeal to the most impeccable authorities has any effect. And his long screeds are functionally repetitious efforts to thread highjack.
I think the ultimate sanction should be threatened, and then applied if necessary.
*1xCO2, 2xH2O

jaymam
October 3, 2011 1:06 am

Brian H says:
September 30, 2011 at 10:27 am
“Just to make it perfectly clear, there aren’t even two separate photos of one thermometer. It’s one photo with the climbing temp Photoshopped in.”
I have taken a very close look and I don’t believe it’s Photoshopped. Thay are not actually clever enough to do that.
They simply took two photos of the same thermometer and heated the thermometer up between shots.
It’s still fraud.

Dave Springer
October 3, 2011 1:16 pm

@Myrhh
“No? You can’t see how ludicrous that is? Of course not, because that’s what you’re promoting as being real physics. Yet you refuse to give me any proof whatsover that visible light can heat matter.”
What the hell is the matter with you, Myrrh? Have’t you seen visible light lasers heating stuff?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=&q=green+laser+melt+plastic&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS290US290&ie=UTF-8
[SNIP: You may be right Dave, but that was just a tad too uncivil. REP]

henri Masson
October 3, 2011 1:27 pm

Please send me only the daily digests in the future.
Thanks in advance
H Masson

Myrrh
October 3, 2011 3:59 pm

Dave Springer says:
October 3, 2011 at 1:16 pm
@Myrhh
“No? You can’t see how ludicrous that is? Of course not, because that’s what you’re promoting as being real physics. Yet you refuse to give me any proof whatsover that visible light can heat matter.”
What the hell is the matter with you, Myrrh? Have’t you seen visible light lasers heating stuff?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=&q=green+laser+melt+plastic&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS290US290&ie=UTF-8
[SNIP: You may be right Dave, but that was just a tad too uncivil. REP]

More to the point would be ‘what the hell is the matter with you?’, the Sun is not a laser. If you understood the properties of visible light, or even how lasers work, you wouldn’t have thought that somehow proved your idiotic point..
..so tell me, what happens to all the 95% thermal energy produced by the light bulb since ‘it’s the visible we feel as heat’?
Ah, of course, it can’t get through the glass! Yes, it’s busy busy busy back-radiating and heating up the element making it hotter and hotter and now gamma rays are being produced and that’s why light bulbs don’t last five minutes. Or maybe it’s just I buy cheap ones.. /s
What the heck, believe what you want in your cartoon world. Just don’t expect to be taken seriously by anyone with basic real world physics about this.

davidmhoffer
October 3, 2011 7:26 pm

Myrrh;
Just don’t expect to be taken seriously by anyone with basic real world physics about this.>>>
Go find the visible light source of your choice. Big one, at least 100 watts. Go find a magnifying glass. Big one, at least six inches. Get an actual glass one, not the plastic ones. Glass doesn’t pass infrared, and it is much higher precision, that’s why you want a glass one.
Position the visible light source such that you can use the magnifying glass to focus it to a tiny dot on the back of your hand. As your skin starts to blacken and you smell the smoke from your burning flesh, keep reminding yourself that visible light doesn’t heat anything, remind yourself that glass doesn’t pass infrared through, so your skin isn’t really burning and it doesn’t really hurt.
For the rest of you, PLEASE DON’T DO THIS. You really will burn yourself, and it really will hurt. Use some paper, but keep in mind that it may catch on fire. Wood works too. In winter we wrote our names in the snow one way, in summer, on the side of the house with a magnifying glass.
Both ways had a painfull result… in the end.

Glenn
October 3, 2011 9:27 pm

Myrrh says:
October 3, 2011 at 3:59 pm
“Yet you refuse to give me any proof whatsover that visible light can heat matter.”
You’re going to have a hard time understanding a greenhouse then. Visible light passes thru and is absorbed by the matter within, which in turn releases heat in the form of infrared, which does not readily escape thru the glass.
Thought experiment: Were the infrared not trapped by the glass, and as you claim visible light doesn’t heat, what then causes a greenhouse to increase in temperature in relation to the outside temperature? It would pass in through the glass as easily as it passed out through the glass. Conclusion: Infrared doesn’t pass through glass, and visible light does and heats matter, which re-radiates absorbed heat as infrared, which is trapped in the greenhouse.

Gutspuken
October 3, 2011 11:42 pm

Isn’t an instructional video automatically considered a dramatization? Bill is explaining what to do to demonstrate CO2’s ability to trap heat. Al Gore and I realize most do not need delicately placed thermometers on miniature earths to understand the concept. However, Al is trying to reach out to High School dropouts that would never stop to consider.
Because he considers his fellow Americans stupid.

October 4, 2011 4:27 am

I’m a big fan of Anthony and anyone else who dares to challenge mainstream climate science, but I found this nit-picking exposé to be way OTT.

Myrrh
October 4, 2011 4:24 pm

Glenn says:
October 3, 2011 at 9:27 pm
Myrrh says:
October 3, 2011 at 3:59 pm
“Yet you refuse to give me any proof whatsover that visible light can heat matter.”
You’re going to have a hard time understanding a greenhouse then. Visible light passes thru and is absorbed by the matter within, which in turn releases heat in the form of infrared, which does not readily escape thru the glass.
Thought experiment: Were the infrared not trapped by the glass, and as you claim visible light doesn’t heat, what then causes a greenhouse to increase in temperature in relation to the outside temperature? It would pass in through the glass as easily as it passed out through the glass. Conclusion: Infrared doesn’t pass through glass, and visible light does and heats matter, which re-radiates absorbed heat as infrared, which is trapped in the greenhouse.

Glenn, you’re taking rather a lot of things for granted here which you may well believe, but is contradicted by physical reality as explained by traditional physics.
We cannot feel visible light as heat. If we can’t feel it as heat, how is it warming us or anything else up? Visible light from the Sun is reflective, it works on the electronic transition level which does not move molecules while thermal infrared does. For example, visible light is reflected/scattered by the molecules of oxygen and nitrogen in our atmosphere when an electron of the molecule briefly absorbs visible and moves into a higher vibrational state and then bounces it back out, so we have a blue sky. To heat water the whole molecule has to be put into vibration, but water is transparent to visible light, as is glass, which means that it doesn’t even get to play with the electrons, but having tried for a while it then gets passed on, this is called transmission, there is no heat created. A lot of visible light is absorbed in chemical changes, such as photsynthesis, this is not creating heat, but sugars. Thermal infrared is invisible, we feel it as heat, this is what warms us up inside because water, we are mainly water, is in resonant absorption with thermal infrared, the whole molecule is moved. Infrared can pass through glass. Sitting in a car on a sunny day we can feel it. Since visible cannot be felt as heat and does not heat us up, it can only be the thermal infrared which is doing this. We cannot feel UV, Visible or Near Infrared, they are not hot. Etc.
Now, you might well disagree with all of that, but until you can prove to me that visible light can do what you say it does, then you are going against all traditional physics teaching in repeating it.
So, traditional physics teaches that the thermal energy of the Sun travels down to the surface of the Earth and warms it up, land and oceans and us – this is the thermal infrared we feel as heat. We cannot feel light. If we’re feeling heat carried by radiation then it can only be thermal infrared. Heat is transported by one of three methods – conduction, convection or radiation. Visible light is not a thermal energy and so the cartoon AGW energy budget is just that, a cartoon of an imaginary world.
This imaginary science fiction was put in place to sell the AGW scare mongering, it has been introduced into the education system to the extent that a whole generation thinks it is real physics and has been spread so successfully that even scientists clever in their own fields take it for granted as if it is real physical fact. This is what adds confusion here. You don’t have to believe what I say is true, but you do, this is a science blog after all, have to note that I am presenting an alternative view – it’s up to you to check it out and that has to begin with checking up whether or not what you believe is true fact. Don’t just find ‘experiments’ which someone suggests proves your view true, think about them. Is the light we get from a laser or by using a magnifying glass the same light we get from the Sun? For example. What is actually happening in the experiment of Gore’s carbon dioxide? In traditional physics you have to take into consideration the differences in properties and processes, not all energy is the same, not all molecules are the same.

Glenn
October 5, 2011 9:48 pm

Myrrh says:
October 4, 2011 at 4:24 pm
“Glenn, you’re taking rather a lot of things for granted here which you may well believe, but is contradicted by physical reality as explained by traditional physics.
We cannot feel visible light as heat…”
Sure we can, and do, as well as other frequencies of light. We also see visible light as color, the light that is reflected off the objects it hits and does not absorb.
This is obvious to most people who have experienced the fact that black cars get much hotter than do white cars. This is basic physics, but it appears that you have been confused by something you have read. The underlying actual scientific explanations can be difficult to understand.

davidmhoffer
October 5, 2011 9:56 pm

Myrrh;
We cannot feel visible light as heat. If we can’t feel it as heat, how is it warming us or anything else up?>>>
A 100 watt incadescent light bulb emitts about 90 watts of infrared.
Question: Where did the other 10 watts go?
Really Myrrh, dealing with the bad science produced by the warmists is one thing, debunking you is a whole other level.

Myrrh
October 6, 2011 3:47 am

davidmhoffer says:
October 5, 2011 at 9:56 pm
Myrrh;
We cannot feel visible light as heat. If we can’t feel it as heat, how is it warming us or anything else up?>>>
A 100 watt incadescent light bulb emitts about 90 watts of infrared.
Question: Where did the other 10 watts go?
Really Myrrh, dealing with the bad science produced by the warmists is one thing, debunking you is a whole other level.

What debunking?? This is straw man. I’m asking you to explain what happens to that 90% thermal infrared. Instead of addressing the logical fail I posted to you as an example of the AGWScience Fiction department’s meme that ‘visible light has the properties of thermal infrared in heating land and oceans’ and ‘thermal infrared taken out of the picture’ you come back with more nonsense. Did someone help you form this supposed ‘debunking’ question, or did you come up with it all on your own?
Visible light can barely move electrons, which scatters it all over the sky, this science fiction you’re promoting says it has the properties of thermal infrared to heat matter by moving whole molecules into vibration.
Here’s the example again:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/09/28/video-analysis-and-scene-replication-suggests-that-al-gores-climate-reality-project-fabricated-their-climate-101-video-simple-experiment/#comment-757203
You tell me what happens to the 90% of thermal infrared emitted by the incandescent light bulb in this example.
Come on Glenn, you join in here since you’ve repeated the AGW science fiction meme that thermal infrared can’t get through glass – therefore it is trapped inside the lightbulb just as it is ‘trapped inside the greenhouse heating it up further meme’.
NASA – “

“Near infrared” light is closest in wavelength to visible light and “far infrared” is closer to the microwave region of the electromagnetic spectrum. The longer, far infrared wavelengths are about the size of a pin head and the shorter, near infrared ones are the size of cells, or are microscopic.
Far infrared waves are thermal. In other words, we experience this type of infrared radiation every day in the form of heat! The heat that we feel from sunlight, a fire, a radiator or a warm sidewalk is infrared.
Shorter, near infrared waves are not hot at all – in fact you cannot even feel them.

This is traditional real world physics. The heat we feel from the Sun is thermal infrared, not as Ira presented it and you keep defending. We cannot feel heat from visible light and UV any more than we can feel near infrared, these are not thermal energies, these don’t have the ability to warm us up, they are not capable of moving our molecules into vibration which is how something gets hotter.
You are unable to give me actual method and examples of visible light from the Sun heating matter. You’re floundering and avoiding because you can’t find anything in physics or in the myriad application of light in our industries to back up your claim. All you have is the junk science of fictional memes which here have reversed the properties visible light and thermal infrared – by giving the properties of thermal infrared to visible light which does not have the ability to do what thermal does.
Until it sinks in that this is a deliberate campaign to dumb down physics in the promotion of the AGW claims, you’ll keep trying to justify what is impossible in the real world. You’ve been had. Someone somewhere is having a great laugh at the confusion this has created and the thousands of discussions where this junk science is being seriously promoted by repeating even more junk science fiction memes in defence of it.
This reaches right to the top of our science communities. Here is the post when I found that NASA was changing its traditional science pages:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/07/28/spencer-and-braswell-on-slashdot/#comment-711614
The heat we feel from the Sun, and from incandescent light bulbs, is the invisible thermal infrared, thermal energy direct from the Sun to us, heat direct from the Sun to us. Therefore, it does reach the Earth’s surface contrary to the claims in the AGW KT energy budget fiction. Short wave cannot heat land and oceans to produce the thermal infrared then radiated out from the Earth as claimed in that fiction AGW energy budget and now widespread that this is real world physics. If you can get your heads around the fact that this is a reversal of properties in a deliberate science fiction world, you’ll find it a lot easier to understand the real physics of the world around us.
This AGWScience Fiction’s meme producing department has done the same thing with carbon dioxide, and as here with Ira’s presentation and Gore’s experiment, fantasy impossible physical claims and pretend experiments are produced by this department to promote these fictional memes. These become absurd when they are believed to apply to the real physical world around us. Keep them in fiction where they belong and re-discover what traditional science really says about their properties.

October 6, 2011 7:56 am

Henry@Myrrh
How do you explain that UV light, although you don’t feel the heat, still has the ability to burn your skin, quite badly. The only problem is you only feel it when it is too late?

Myrrh
October 6, 2011 8:44 am

Why don’t you find out? It’s not thermal. “Far infrared waves are thermal.” Short wave, near infrared, visible and uv, are not.
What you have to prove is that UV is able to heat the oceans and lands of Earth, to warm them up, or stop promoting the junk fiction of the AGW science budget which excludes the thermal we can all feel as direct heat from the Sun, and which we all can understand warms us up. We know what heat is, we can feel it radiating off stuff that is hot. Burning surface skin is not warming you up, you can’t even feel being burned by UV.. If that’s what you call ‘warming up the earth’ then we’d all be permanently singed.. I’ve given traditional physics explaining the differences. Explore these differences between electronic transitions, electrons, of shortwave compared with rotational resonance of atoms and molecules of thermal infrared, heat energy, for a start. When plants absorb visible light it does not create heat, the energy is used for a chemical change to create sugars. That ‘all energy creates heat therefore all wavelengths from the Sun are the same’ is a science fiction meme. They are different, they do different things, they are different sizes, etc. AGWScience Fiction reduces all this to zero dimension nonsense by stopping you thinking about the differences.
You’re involved in promoting these ideas which I’ve shown are contrary to established well known tried and tested physics in tradition science. It’s up to you to prove it. That’s why you and your ilk can’t come up with even one logical explanation to back your claims that shortwave heats up land and oceans, because it’s junk science. Because there is no method by which they can do this and, as yet, the whole of scientific literature hasn’t been corrupted or there would be no industries based on the real understanding of the differences between heat and light, you can’t find anything.
Who taught you this nonsense? You could try going back to them and asking them to prove it…

davidmhoffer
October 6, 2011 10:29 am

Myrrh;
You’re involved in promoting these ideas which I’ve shown are contrary to established well known tried and tested physics in tradition science.>>>
You’ve shown nothing. You ask for proof, and when it is provided, you dismiss it out of hand and claim it proves nothing. Experiments are proposed to you, and you dismiss them as proving nothing. The math formulas used every day to design everything from eye glasses to blast furnaces have been explained to you, and you claim they mean nothing. You spout on and on (and on) about “traditional physics” but you can’t quote the specific studies, formulas or scientists that you claim back you up.
Which physicists got it wrong? Watt? Ohm? Joule? Faraday? Stefan-Boltzmann? Planck? Which one?

Myrrh
October 6, 2011 11:08 am

What proof have you given me?? Show me exactly what I’ve asked for, how visible light a non-thermal energy from the Sun is capable of heating the oceans and lands of Earth as presented by AGWScience Fiction while excluding the real thermal energy from the Sun which we know is capable of heating matter and which we all experience as described in the NASA quote I gave, and which we who were traditionally taught know to be the invisible thermal infrared as it is explained there. This is real science, you’re presenting something different.
You are excluding all the properties and processes of real science and think that answers my specific question??
Heat a bath of water with blue led light or with your remote control without turning it into a lasar or magnifying it.. You have provided not one jot of proof that visible light from the Sun can do this. Show me the planckian discussions on the difference between heat and light energies from the Sun and stop pretending irrelevant information and out of context ‘experiments’ prove you know what you’re talking about. Give me a proper, logical explanation of how visible light heats water – the actual process. You’re continuing to avoid giving me the information I’ve actually asked for and which you need to be able to give to back up your claim against traditional science.
NASA traditional physics: “Far infrared waves are thermal. In other words, we experience this type of infrared radiation every day in the form of heat! The heat that we feel from sunlight, a fire, a radiator or a warm sidewalk is infrared.”
This has been taken out of the AGWScience Fiction energy budget as per Kiehl/Trenberth – immediately that makes it junk science. Your claim that shortwave is thermal is junk science, the heat we feel from the Sun and from incandescent light bulbs is the invisible thermal infrared, we cannot feel visible light as heat. You and Ira and the rest of your gang are spouting unadulterated gobbledegook.

Glenn
October 6, 2011 11:16 am

Myrrh says:
October 6, 2011 at 3:47 am
“Come on Glenn, you join in here since you’ve repeated the AGW science fiction meme that thermal infrared can’t get through glass – therefore it is trapped inside the lightbulb just as it is ‘trapped inside the greenhouse heating it up further meme’.”
That should be enough to cause you to stop and think, since light bulbs get very, very hot, yet provide plenty of visible light. I provided you with basic physics reasoning via a commonly used subject. Greenhouses do warm and maintain that warmth over outside air during day – but not at night. If all that heated a greenhouse, as you would claim, is infrared that can as easily escape through glass as it arrived, then you should ask yourself why a greenhouse gets hotter inside than outside, without help from visible light or another source of heat inside. You basically just deny that visible light is absorbed by and heats any object and no infrared heat is reradiated. And you call that basic physics.

October 6, 2011 11:22 am

Sorry Myrrh
I’m sure I am not your enemy.
I think I pretty much proved (at least for myself) that the cause of the warming of our planet is largely natural. Some small portion of it may be manmade if you mean that the increase in vegetation observed over the past decades is due to man’s intervention.
http://www.letterdash.com/HenryP/more-carbon-dioxide-is-ok-ok
But you have not explained to me why you think I need a sunscreen to prevent UV rays burning me?
( I honestly don’t know – I have not studied much biology)

Myrrh
October 6, 2011 4:22 pm

Ah, sorry Henry, scrolling too fast and my mind in answering Glenn and David. Can’t recall saying I thought you needed a sunscreen.. You don’t need a sunscreen if you give your body time to acclimatise – the melanin in your body deals with it, you’ll tan which means higher melanin which will block more, what it doesn’t block it absorbs and, “Melanin is generally considered to be the perfect protection against UV-induced photodamage” is a real science basic, and research is ongoing about UV and melanin both. Using a sunscreen except for short duration, say going to hot country for hols and unused to the Sun, but even then better if you cover up part of the time which protects rather than excluding these health giving rays altogether. The build up over the years of scaremongering about the Sun and ozone layer and associating this with skin cancer and the proliferation of sunscreens that block UV completely has had the effect that even in places like England parents have been slathering their young children with UV blocks and now cases of rickets appearing which haven’t been seen for a long time – UV is used by the body to create vitamin D, lack of which causes rickets. For example, http://www.naturalnews.com/028329_vitamin_D_rickets.html
and for an example of what parents have been subjected to http://kidshealth.org/parent/firstaid_safe/outdoor/sun_safety.html# Which says of itself: “KidsHealth is the #1 most-visited website for children’s health and development”.
UV doesn’t penetrate the skin deeper than the first layer, the epidermis, is not a thermal energy, it doesn’t move molecules into vibration, but tiny it zones in on the smaller DNA where it can do damage. This is a plus for it in its use as a water purifier, where it doesn’t heat the water.., but zooms in to the DNA of microscopic nasties lurking and does them damage.
Melanin is an astonishing thing in its own right in the way the body uses it, worth a search for what you can find on it.
Anyway, I’m still in G/M mode…, these are LIGHT rays as a category in traditional physics, not HEAT, they are tiny compared with heat energy and work on tiny bits like UV and DNA and Vit D production or as in photosynthesis, absorbed for photochemical work, not heat production. These energies do not move molecules into vibration which is the real way matter gets heated.
Glenn says:
October 6, 2011 at 11:16 am
Myrrh says:
October 6, 2011 at 3:47 am
“Come on Glenn, you join in here since you’ve repeated the AGW science fiction meme that thermal infrared can’t get through glass – therefore it is trapped inside the lightbulb just as it is ‘trapped inside the greenhouse heating it up further meme’.”
That should be enough to cause you to stop and think, since light bulbs get very, very hot, yet provide plenty of visible light.
Light bulbs if they’re incandescant provide only about 5% of their output as visible light, the majority, 95%, is thermal infrared. When you switch off the light bulb the heat which is thermal infrared which is thermal energy which is not visible is still being radiated out. As in the Sun, it is heat, thermal infrared, which creates visible light.
I provided you with basic physics reasoning via a commonly used subject. Greenhouses do warm and maintain that warmth over outside air during day – but not at night. If all that heated a greenhouse, as you would claim, is infrared that can as easily escape through glass as it arrived, then you should ask yourself why a greenhouse gets hotter inside than outside, without help from visible light or another source of heat inside. You basically just deny that visible light is absorbed by and heats any object and no infrared heat is reradiated. And you call that basic physics.
Well no, I have’t quite said all of that, but I’ve certainly said that visible does not heat the inside of a greenhouse as claimed as an example of visible heating the lands and oceans of Earth in the fictional energy budget cartoon, visible cannot heat the lands and oceans of Earth as claimed. Have you ever used a greenhouse? Of course heat escapes! When greenhouses get too hot we open their windows, when they get too cold we put on heating. A closed greenhouse will keep convected heat in longer, but when outside temps drop heat from inside will naturally and irresistably travel outside. That’s why we put in double glazing to help keep heat in our homes. Heat always travels from hotter to colder. Visible light CANNOT heat the ground of the greenhouse as you keep repeating this AGWScience fiction meme, because it physically doesn’t have the capability of doing so.
It’s tiny compared with the bigger thermal infrared, it doesn’t even move the molecules of nitrogen and oxygen in the air, it just gets bounced out by their electrons, reflected and scattered all over the sky by electrons. The higher energy blue visible gets scattered more than the lower frequency visibles. These tiny very fast moving waves are tiny because they travel at the same speed as longer waves, they get more waves in the same period of time, how big are visible waves compared with, say, radio waves? Get a sense of scale and it will be easier to grasp that it takes more than they can manage to move a molecule into vibration. And in water, water is a transparent medium for visible, light can’t even get to the electrons because the molecules of water keep it out, it is delayed and passed on, this is called transmission. [Which note, AGWSF claims the atmosphere is transparent to visible, but it isn’t, because the electrons of the gas molecules absorb it before bouncing it back out, so why isn’t the sky all hot from visible?]
If you want to find out about visible light look up pages on optics and explore the different kinds of bulbs now available which do not use heat to create visible. The best visible can do for creating energy for work is in being captured by photovoltaic cells and turned into electricity, photo means light. This is a very different process from capturing the thermal energy from the Sun, thermal infrared, by heating water directly..

“Infrared radiation is typically produced by molecular vibrations and rotations (i.e., heat) and causes or accelerates such motions in the molecules of objects that absorb it; it is, therefore, perceived by the body through the increased warmth of skin exposed to it.” http://www.answers.com/topic/electromagnetic-spectrum

I realise you think you’re giving me ‘real physics’, but you’re giving me fictional memes created by those promoting AGW. Light is not Heat and neither are x-rays. They are different energies and do different things because they interact with matter in different scales, etc.
Real physics on Heat:
http://thermalenergy.org/
http://thermalenergy.org/heattransfer.php
Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparency_and_translucency
Scroll down to Absorption of Light in Solids where it begins to explain the difference between light and heat:

“Mechanisms of selective light wave absorption include:
Electronic: Transitions in electron energy levels within the atom (e.g., pigments). These transitions are typically in the ultraviolet (UV) and/or visible portions of the spectrum.
Vibrational: Resonance in atomic/molecular vibrational modes. These transitions are typically in the infrared portion of the spectrum.”

Continue reading UV-Vis: Electronic transitions which gives the four possible ways these light energies will act – the second is what happens when visible meets nitrogen and oxygen in the air, reflected/scattered, and the third is what happens when visible meets water, it is transmitted because the electron cannot absorb the energy (which is does in reflecting/scattering).
And take in “Infrared – bond stretching – The primary physical mechanism for storing mechanical energy of motion in condensed matter is through heat, or thermal energy. Thermal energy manifests itself as energy of motion. Thus, heat is motion at the atomic and molecular levels.”
I hope this helps.

Glenn
October 6, 2011 6:44 pm

Myrrh,
from your ref:
“Once the thermal energy leaves the sun (in the form of radiation) it is called heat. Heat is thermal energy in transfer.”
That is horsehockey. Practically no energy is transferred in space. The website is a joke. Light does not carry thermal energy, it carries radiant energy.
As to your use of Wiki as a reference, you should think twice since several other Wiki articles contradict your claim that visible light doesn’t heat anything. And the one that you cited, in the same section you referred to, says “That is, one object might reflect green light while absorbing all other frequencies of visible light.”
So now you know that visible light is absorbed by some objects, carries radiant energy which can interact with the molecular structure of certain object to produce thermal energy which is radiated or reemitted as infrared, which we call thermal radiation or heat.

Glenn
October 6, 2011 8:02 pm

Myrrh,
It is painful to weed through your posts, but I suspect you visualize infrared as hot moving photons, and visible light as cold moving photons. Am I in the ballpark? My last sentence above may have confused you. It is the transfer of thermal energy that we call thermal radiation or heat, not infrared.

Verified by MonsterInsights